October 1, 2025 • 29 mins
Several months have passed since Governor Braun signed a much-reviled property tax reform bill into law. As more people learn about the specifics of the bill, public sentiment is only getting worse. From local governments who feel they're losing too much, to taxpayers who did not feel they got nearly enough, the governor's signature issue of 2025 has become a major liability. On this week's Statehouse Happenings, Rob Kendall and Jim Merritt examine how the bill got so bad, and what, if anything, can be done to fix it.
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State House Happenings. Rob Kendall, Jim Merritt. The program is
(01:31):
State House Happenings, your weekly look at what's going on
with Indiana politics and government. Before we begin the program,
let's meet our award winning well once again panelist singular
Robert thirty years in the Indiana Senate, the Great Jim Merritt. Hello, Hello,
for those of you wondering, this is our second week
without Abdul. He has not quit, no resigned.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
He is na He's busy man.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
He is scheduled to be back with us next week, though,
so we will look forward to check it back in
with abduel here in state House happenings. But first, one
of the things that we got into today on our
Kendell and Casey program on WIBC was an interesting article
from columnist James Briggs in the Indie Star. Now. Briggs
(02:15):
a friend of our Kendelly Casey show. I don't agree
with him on a lot of his politics. But one
of the things that I do agree with him on,
and I think universally is agreed upon outside of the
State House, in state House being the lawmakers of the
General Assembly and the governor is what a dumpster fire
the Senate Bill one, the property tax bill is. And
(02:38):
before we get into the nuts and bolts of this,
it is fascinating how there is such a disconnect on
such an important issue between the lawmakers and the citizens
because everybody right, left, whatever, seems to hate this bill.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, it's a very difficult undertaking when the legislature writes
a bill Cenate Bill one on the fly and and
uh and expects local government to kind of fall into
line and uh, Briggs writes, a uh.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I don't say this very often.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Briggs writes a good article because I I believe he
and I are politics aren't the same. And I think
he I think there are times that James takes cheap,
cheap shots and uh, and I don't like that. But uh,
that being being as having said that, I think that
(03:36):
local government is going to have a very difficult time
understanding Center Bill one and and and and they've given
Center Bill one has given local government, uh some time
to get acclimated because of some of the some of
the situations, the pillars, the columns, the things that hold
(03:58):
up the bill are immediate. But I was at a
Chamber Commerce Liane with Brad Clofenstein Claffenstein the cloffenstein Stein. Yes, Yes,
it was the Greater Lawrence Chamber of Commerce. Yes, and
a young man by the name of Campbell Campbell Ritchie
who represents an organization called AIM which is the municipal
(04:19):
association of all the municipalities around the state.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
And now now full disclosure, I was also invited to
tend that event with you, And I told claffenstein Stein,
and I said that guy might not show up if
I'm there, so I don't want to like ruin your event.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Well, Campbell, he tried to explain the unexplainable. Yes, and
I actually sent his boss a note after it saying
that that he did really your job of trying to
explain this, it's very difficult. It's like looking into a
spaghetti bowl and arranging the noodles, and it is very very,
(04:53):
very very very difficult. And a local government right now
is trying to do this on the fly, including Carmel, Indiana.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, so let's just talk about this for a second,
because it's fascinating how the General Assembly had all this time.
I mean, they knew it was the top issue in
the election. Then they had the entire General Assembly process,
so I mean, you know, you basically had a year
to get something figured out, and the best you could
(05:23):
come up with is some convoluted thing that came out
at the end of the session basically that nobody was
even talking about for months. Look nothing like what the
governor proposed, and they managed somehow to put something out
that's so bad that whether it's Me on the right
or Briggs on the left, and pretty much all points
in between, the all the government people hate it. The
(05:45):
people wanted property tax reform hate it because they don't
feel like it helped. It's awful.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Yeah, well, it's it's what actually happened was that the
legislature has been studying and trying to get rid of
the income tax. When I started in nineteen ninety one,
it was three point four percent and property taxes, and
through the years we've had the property tax explosion. In
two thousand and eight, the mayor of Indianapolis loses his job.
(06:14):
Although he didn't have any control over property taxes at
that time, he.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Did over the income tax, and that was the big.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
One that got him right.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Well, that was your build up of many mayors and whatnot.
But the local option income tax, that's what the legislature
really wants to get to is giving the locals the
ability to have a local option income tax that pretty
much rules a day and moving away from property taxes,
(06:46):
well you can't. You can't have that transition if you
will overnight. And the devils in the details, and what
young mister Ritchie was trying to describe to the Chamber
was really just a very difficult, difficult understanding of local government.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
You've lost the title when you can't explain something to.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Them, Yes, and I just lost our car.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, but the problem is we're that's our job is
to try to talk about what these idiots do. Oh,
I'm supposed to be nicer on this program. What these
esteemed sorry, this is not Kendling Casey. What these esteemed
individuals that represent us do. And they've created something that's
so complex that nobody likes it. So from my perspective,
(07:31):
I am not upset about governments having to make cuts.
I'm all for that. It's gotten totally out of control.
That was the premise of the property tax caps to
begin with, as local governments are out of control, and
now with these assessments they're back to be in totally
out of control.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Again.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
What'd you do with all the money you got the
last four or five years with the skyrocketing assessments. My
issue is there's minimal actual relief to people, and there's
going to be no relief by the time you factor
in the assess continue to go up. Many school systems
are going to do referendums, and many local governments are
going to do these new local income taxes. So to me,
(08:09):
I'm fine with having the discussion about how much local
governments need to cut, which you know Briggs is upset
about that in this indisrpiece. I don't cry any tears
for those people. But I'm very upset about the lack
of actual cuts or or property tax relief that's going
to come back, which will basically be nothing, and I'll
(08:29):
probably end up paying more as well most people by
the time all the other taxes are factored in.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
You know, I as a private citizen, now I want
if my house is on fire, I want I want
the fire department. If there's something going on in my
neighborhood that is a problem with my safety. I want good,
good police. I don't want any chuck holes. I don't
want any potholes. I want good schools, good schools, aid
(08:56):
public safety and an educated public is right, And that's
what I think. I think the property taxpayer just wants
the bang for our buck and those government services that
make a community flourish.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Really what you're talking about, is a baseline of a good,
solid community that you're safe, you're educated, and.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
You can enjoy the fruits of your community. I think
that's what we all want.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You live in Karmel, I live in Brownsburg. Yes, it's
really hard when you have a taxpayer funded hotel, tax
pair funded palladium, reflexive pool, all the stuff they have
in Carmel, or whether it's being browns or we have
two football fields now, Jim, Yes, one wasn't enough. We
needed too. Yes, we have multiple field houses. We built
our athletic track in the wrong direction several years ago,
(09:46):
so we were going to build a new one of those.
It's hard to be doing all of these things and
then go, well, how are we supposed to pay the
bills if you get three hundred dollars of property tax reform?
Speaker 4 (09:57):
Longtime friend of mine I bumped into them in the
hardware store. He said, you know, I was driving by
the local high school and the front lawn has an
irrigation system in it.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
What's going on with that?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, it's and it is I mean the grand gios,
the excess that. I mean, it's local governments across the board.
I think the schools are the biggest example of it.
But there's I mean, they did nothing to really address
the core thing, which is, as long as the assessments
continue to rise, people's property tax are going to continue
(10:34):
to go up. It is utterly ridiculous. The whole premise
is I mean, there were really two sides of this
should not have been this hard. Number one, the past
five years have got totally out of control. There's no
reason people's property tax should be doubling or tripling. The
government is not getting two or three times better, Okay,
so we got to address that right. The second side
of this is how do we prevent this in the future.
(10:56):
And the answer is why am I being punished for
some other I selling his house and making money? Oh?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
The system is terrible in regards to assessment. And all
the way back to two thousand and seven, two thousand
and eight nine, when when we're going through through these
these constitutional amendments regarding you know, putting a lid on
property taxes and the one two three percent on the
different types of property, there there were very few of
(11:26):
us that were screaming from the balconies to talk about
assessment and about about the subjectivity or the objectivity of
of gauging property. And and we did not, we the
legislature did not put any type of for the want
of a better word, governor on the assessment program because
(11:48):
you you looked at it from market value, and if
your neighbors property sold for double what yours is, you
suffered for it. And it was really the it's insane
on the devil in that detail and represent a former representative,
Tom Saunders, I remember him so well screaming about about
(12:10):
that we need to do something about assessments and we
did not.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, the whole premise of that is messed up. However,
I'm loath to defend you guys, but you know, I
think there was always this premise of, hey, your assessment
went up one percent, or your assessment went up two percent,
you know those sorts of things, or you know your
bill went up one percent or whatever. Hey, your bill's
up thirty dollars higher than it was the year before.
(12:35):
Not that it makes it okay. Not that the property
taxes at all are okay, But I think when you
guys were trying to build and you crack me up wrong,
some sort of collective here you never envisioned, Hey, three
over three years, peop are going to pay double what
they were paying. You know.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yeah, but we get paid for as as I always say,
seeing in front of.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Our headlights and wait, wait, are we about to have
a moment where you're dumping on the general set and
I'm defending them.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Oh, I think go for it. Damn.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I think we made a big mistake by not not
anticipating you know, massive inflation that happened during COVID. We
didn't anticipate. And if my dad taught me anything in
businesses anticipate problems. And and we should have had some
sort of you know, bumpers if you will, or or
(13:23):
some sort of guidance. And but but we have evolved
into an assessor, uh, choosing to decide what the value
of her house is rather than having a really tight
explanation and as well as being very transparent about it,
because it isn't in the system needs a complete overhaul
(13:44):
when it comes to assessment.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Is the other part of this that you well, you
just hit on it, which is so I feel like
I know property taxes better than about nine Robert.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
I was really surprised how deep you went on this.
You knew it very very well, but more than I did.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
No nobody cut more property taxes than me at a
local level.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I just wish when you went over the governor's office
that time that you would have lectured them on it
because you knew more than they did.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Well, that's okay, We'll get to that in a second,
because you look, you know, I'm never gonna miss a
chance for somebody tell me how smart I am. But
one of the issues we will come back to that
now you'd hit on it, which is the assessor. And
like I said, I feel like I know this better
than about ninety nine point nine percent of the population.
When I get my property tax bill, I've appealed at
multiple times, I've won multiple times. I kind of know
(14:30):
what I'm doing with this. But I got a revised
property tax bill this year, and incredibly it went in
my favor, which is shocking. But they said something to
the effect of the reason the byline or whatever they
call that was neighborhood assessment air and I'm reading that, going,
(14:51):
what in the world does that mean? I guess I
can call and find out, But it ended up going
to my favor. So I don't even have the time
or the like. But if I don't get it, Jim,
there's no I live this world. They're ridiculous of the systems.
This complextent.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
You think about a ninety year old senior citizen and
he or she sees that, and they have no idea
what that is, and and there's nowhere that you can
find easily that would know that. There's no description whatsoever.
And and it's not a user friendly system whatsoever. Way
back when when we had the Shepherd Kernan Kern and
(15:27):
Shepherd report, I introduced a bill that eliminated all the
township fire departments in Marion County and and and full
them into i FD. Well I lost that bill twenty
three twenty five. And it was hard bill, but it
was it was a part of the Shepherd you know,
Kern and Kern and Shepherd movement of eliminating and you
(15:47):
know township assessors went by the wayside. But that was
an effort back in Miss Daniels days as governor where
we were trying to get rid of local government that
that wasn't necessary and and and a lot of it failed,
but it wasn't for what you know, we tried. And
so the bottom line here is number one, we need
(16:10):
to make a better effort to that to not have
township trustees. And and because some of the efforts are
are are duplicative, and we need to do a better
job with fire territories rather than rather than having individual
fire departments and townships and just all sorts of things.
(16:30):
And that's what you're seeing here. But people don't understand
when they when they see duplicative services, and then they
have their property taxes doubly that is a problem.
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zero three. Statehouse Happenings also wants to thank our fine
friends at Freedom Foods Indiana. Farmer Ryan Schleiman and the
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folks at Freedom Foods Indiana have been delivering fresh fruits
and vegetables right to people's doors for years, and Freedom
Foods Indiana is a big supporter of State House Happenings. Now,
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Right now, though, we just want to say thanks to
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(18:11):
Rob Kendall, Jim Merritt. The program is State Ho's Happenings,
your weekly look at what's going on with Indiana politics
and government. I feel like, you know, all my life's
a circle. We've come all the way back to talking
about property taxes again. This article by James Briggs and
The Indie Star sort of the catalyst for this talking
about the damage that the property tax bill is doing.
From the background on it, look, Briggs and I come
(18:31):
to the same conclusion for very different reasons, which is
it's a horrible, horrible bill. It's gonna do a lot
more damage than any good it would do. Is one
of the reasons the bill ended up being so bad
is that Braun never really wanted to deal with this.
Like he went kicking and screaming, now, let's get to
(18:51):
the me portion of the program. Shall we do me right?
Like Braun didn't say anything about property taxes during the camp.
During the primary campaign, it was almost non existent. He
was pooh poohing it. People got into it with him
about it. And then he wins the primary and these
polls start coming out going, ah, you know it's not
(19:12):
it's not a runaway you think it's going to be
because you're kind of unlikable. And so then he's got
to make a choice of, Oh, if I lose the
Conservatives the way Holcombe did, I could conceivably not win
the governorship, you know, rain Waters running again. And so
he sort of went by force into this thing because
he felt like candidly, I mean, they needed our audience,
(19:36):
they needed these people to vote for him, and they
didn't really want to do it. And when your heart's
not in something this big and most importantly this complicated.
You're not going to get something good because you got
to really want it.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Yeah, well, you know, I think that's a factor. I
also think the factor of the General Assembly studying income
taxes for two years and wanting to put that way,
and then the populace with the with the citizens citizens
read uh is talking to them about their property taxes.
You've got a mess. You've got a collision. And I
(20:10):
think that's also what happened. And when you have that collision, uh,
and you have a you have a supermajority, and a
lot of the members are coming out of their gyms,
coming out of their churches, coming out of their grocery
stores when they've talked to people about their property taxes,
and and and you have all this information about income taxes.
That those those two forces collided, and when it collided,
(20:34):
you have senebil one. And and they're trying to like
I said, they're trying to get uh, they're trying to
get taxation income uh, taxation to the locals and away
from property taxes. And you just can't do that in
a vacuum, in a in a in a long session obviously,
but you've got a lot of members who are you
(20:58):
know their interest in property tax and it's like turning
a cruise ship around in a creek.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, okay, before we get off this guy, before we
end the show, I would definitely want to get to
what's going on in Carmel real quick. But I made
a huge mistake being nice to these guys, didn't I
trying to work with them. In hindsight, I should have
just gone on my instinct, which is a new bron
was a snake. But I so badly wanted this thing
to get done now now, Robert, my text I should have.
I should have just been very mean to them the
(21:25):
entire Remember my text with which one you sent me
many over these? My text was usually starts.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
With sun when when you said I think there's a deal,
and I text you back, are you gonna.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Blow this up?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I tried, Well this you didn't and uh, and I
did my power. I came about two votes shortened. Senate
got real close.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Well you you you took calls next morning, you remember, Yeah,
and your populace was unhappy and and but but the
bottom line is this this complicated Local governments are are
are royal by this, and they're trying to figure out.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
How to get for me to be all right, got
about six minutes left in the show. I wanted to
hit on this because you live in Carmel, I do
gonna be fascinating to get your take on this. The
the you Are Current, which is the sort of the
tawny newspaper there right or the city newspaper. Right, they
have a fascinating article about the mayor of Sue Fink,
(22:23):
the mayor of Carmel, Soue finkom sending these emails out
basically lecturing council members about their treatment of city employees.
And I don't even like, I don't it's fascinating to
I don't even know where to begin with this, which
(22:43):
is rare because this is so ridiculous to me that
that is what her focus is on, because they didn't
say anything to me that is, you know, over the
top inappropriate. You shouldn't be doing that, you know, I
just and these these are the same sort of the
same councilmen who are really giving her a lot of
(23:04):
pushback over some of the things she's trying to do
with the city government. What an embarrassment for the city,
And you're the Carmel resident on this is this all
y'all have to do in Carmel with your.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Time is well.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
First of all, I love living in Carmel because there
are no no potholes. I'm I feel safe. And uh,
police and fire are wonderful. You should, yes, but there
is a cost to security. It shouldn't be that much.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
But also Jake.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Allen in Indianapolis Star this morning, UH has a headline
in this article a real breakdown and communication and trust
colon Carmel City Council spars with mayor.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Obviously this is embarrassing.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And and and there.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
They have a real problem. Uh.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
You know, you you had Mayor Brainer in the council
and and lots of arts funding and all all everything
that happened in those twenty four years that he was
mayor and in a very working with the with the
council and lots of respects. And then and then Sue
f InCom comes in as mayor, and you've got some
(24:16):
disrupt and she's she is trying to move arts funding
to an outside not for profit called either Carmel Experience
or Experienced Carmel. And she's trying to change what is
going on with Carmel government. And and and she's challenging
the council, and the council is challenging her.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
They've got a little bit of an HR problem here.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
And Uh, okay, but like the guy that she's one
of these guys she's mad at. I think Matthew Snyder
is his name, right. He described the communications the director
of the city's marketing communications, as being quote all dolled
up for a television interview. That's what she's mad about. Yeah,
that's you got so little going on in Carmel that
(25:00):
that's worthy of an email.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
That's embarrassing.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
And uh and so I I it comes out in
print because Carmel's the best place to live in the
state of Indiana. And and and you live it in
your public and you're every and it's all out there
too well, uh for everyone to see. And I I
don't understand it. I wasn't in the room.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
But they've got bigger problems than that, and and make
and getting a mudget budget pass and and right now
the council and the mayor are as a headline sin
are sparring about everything, including uh, including HR.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Now, now she's on my list, as I'm sure you're
aware of people that are not in favorable standing.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
You haven't been kind to her.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Uh, and she deserves every unkindness that she's gotten from me.
So I'm I don't unless these guys got their pictures
in a post office somewhere. I'm team these council guys,
because anybody can make her life harder. I'm on their team.
But this is like, like they're not handing over emails
about legal expenses. It's like, what, what is what is
(26:10):
going on here? Like this stuff just all seems so funny.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
My friends in the council, my friend the mayor, stick
to the budget, get it done, keep me safe, and
and uh and and let's let's have a great community
and and uh, just don't get stuck with the small stuff.
And that's what you're getting right.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
And the reason we talk about this at the State
House happening show mean that weouldn't try to touch on
things that affect the entire state. I think, next to Indianapolis,
Carmel is the probably the second most important city and
in the state of Indiana.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
I think I think Carmel and Hamlet County as a whole, is,
along with Indianapolis, really is the motor for the State
of Indiana, and in the regards to income tax that
goes into the general fund, and and and uh, it's
so imperative that that we have a vibrant Indianapolis and
we have a vibran Carmel and for that matter, Fisher's Noblesville,
(27:03):
and and uh in.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Westfin's going down with all these these mayors though in
Hamilton County they're all basically like the same guy. Now
they're they're wearing vests, they're building a Soviet block style apartments,
like they're going out of style. Like what what happened to?
Hamilton County? Used to be such a fine and fine
and decent place. Twenty years ago. I worked in Hamilton County.
(27:26):
It was other than the trip being a little long
and thirty one being a bit of a traffic backup,
it was a fine place to be.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Thirty seconds. Have you ever been to a rodeo?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
No, Well, in a rodeo, uh, you're you've got a
horse that is bucking and all they're trying to do
is is guide that bucking horse and not get thrown off.
And these mayors there's the cities are growing, they.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Want they're doing the growing gym.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Yeah, they're growing, but they've got popular population growth and
and they're trying to keep their schools in great shape.
And I mean it's very difficult. I can see it
from the outside looking in, and I understand what they're
going through. And then you've got the property text issue,
and so they're trying to just keep everything moving forward
and making sure they're not bucked off.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well, I got all dolled up for this show today, Jim,
and it was a pleasure to be here with you.
Jim Merritt, Thank.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
You, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
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going to do it for us this week. Thank you
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
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zero three Statehouse Happenings also wants to thank our fine
friends at Freedom Foods Indiana. Farmer Ryan Schleiman and the
(01:08):
folks at Freedom Foods Indiana have been delivering fresh fruits
and vegetables right to people's doors for years, and Freedom
Foods Indiana is a big supporter of State House Happenings.
Now Freedom Foods Indiana has some big things coming. We
can't wait to tell you all about it in the
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thanks to our friends at Freedom Foods Indiana for supporting
State House Happenings. Rob Kendall, Jim Merritt. The program is
(01:31):
State House Happenings, your weekly look at what's going on
with Indiana politics and government. Before we begin the program,
let's meet our award winning well once again panelist singular
Robert thirty years in the Indiana Senate, the Great Jim Merritt. Hello, Hello,
for those of you wondering, this is our second week
without Abdul. He has not quit, no resigned.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
He is na He's busy man.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
He is scheduled to be back with us next week, though,
so we will look forward to check it back in
with abduel here in state House happenings. But first, one
of the things that we got into today on our
Kendell and Casey program on WIBC was an interesting article
from columnist James Briggs in the Indie Star. Now. Briggs
(02:15):
a friend of our Kendelly Casey show. I don't agree
with him on a lot of his politics. But one
of the things that I do agree with him on,
and I think universally is agreed upon outside of the
State House, in state House being the lawmakers of the
General Assembly and the governor is what a dumpster fire
the Senate Bill one, the property tax bill is. And
(02:38):
before we get into the nuts and bolts of this,
it is fascinating how there is such a disconnect on
such an important issue between the lawmakers and the citizens
because everybody right, left, whatever, seems to hate this bill.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, it's a very difficult undertaking when the legislature writes
a bill Cenate Bill one on the fly and and
uh and expects local government to kind of fall into
line and uh, Briggs writes, a uh.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I don't say this very often.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Briggs writes a good article because I I believe he
and I are politics aren't the same. And I think
he I think there are times that James takes cheap,
cheap shots and uh, and I don't like that. But uh,
that being being as having said that, I think that
(03:36):
local government is going to have a very difficult time
understanding Center Bill one and and and and they've given
Center Bill one has given local government, uh some time
to get acclimated because of some of the some of
the situations, the pillars, the columns, the things that hold
(03:58):
up the bill are immediate. But I was at a
Chamber Commerce Liane with Brad Clofenstein Claffenstein the cloffenstein Stein. Yes, Yes,
it was the Greater Lawrence Chamber of Commerce. Yes, and
a young man by the name of Campbell Campbell Ritchie
who represents an organization called AIM which is the municipal
(04:19):
association of all the municipalities around the state.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
And now now full disclosure, I was also invited to
tend that event with you, And I told claffenstein Stein,
and I said that guy might not show up if
I'm there, so I don't want to like ruin your event.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Well, Campbell, he tried to explain the unexplainable. Yes, and
I actually sent his boss a note after it saying
that that he did really your job of trying to
explain this, it's very difficult. It's like looking into a
spaghetti bowl and arranging the noodles, and it is very very,
(04:53):
very very very difficult. And a local government right now
is trying to do this on the fly, including Carmel, Indiana.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, so let's just talk about this for a second,
because it's fascinating how the General Assembly had all this time.
I mean, they knew it was the top issue in
the election. Then they had the entire General Assembly process,
so I mean, you know, you basically had a year
to get something figured out, and the best you could
(05:23):
come up with is some convoluted thing that came out
at the end of the session basically that nobody was
even talking about for months. Look nothing like what the
governor proposed, and they managed somehow to put something out
that's so bad that whether it's Me on the right
or Briggs on the left, and pretty much all points
in between, the all the government people hate it. The
(05:45):
people wanted property tax reform hate it because they don't
feel like it helped. It's awful.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Yeah, well, it's it's what actually happened was that the
legislature has been studying and trying to get rid of
the income tax. When I started in nineteen ninety one,
it was three point four percent and property taxes, and
through the years we've had the property tax explosion. In
two thousand and eight, the mayor of Indianapolis loses his job.
(06:14):
Although he didn't have any control over property taxes at
that time, he.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Did over the income tax, and that was the big.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
One that got him right.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Well, that was your build up of many mayors and whatnot.
But the local option income tax, that's what the legislature
really wants to get to is giving the locals the
ability to have a local option income tax that pretty
much rules a day and moving away from property taxes,
(06:46):
well you can't. You can't have that transition if you
will overnight. And the devils in the details, and what
young mister Ritchie was trying to describe to the Chamber
was really just a very difficult, difficult understanding of local government.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
You've lost the title when you can't explain something to.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Them, Yes, and I just lost our car.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, but the problem is we're that's our job is
to try to talk about what these idiots do. Oh,
I'm supposed to be nicer on this program. What these
esteemed sorry, this is not Kendling Casey. What these esteemed
individuals that represent us do. And they've created something that's
so complex that nobody likes it. So from my perspective,
(07:31):
I am not upset about governments having to make cuts.
I'm all for that. It's gotten totally out of control.
That was the premise of the property tax caps to
begin with, as local governments are out of control, and
now with these assessments they're back to be in totally
out of control.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Again.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
What'd you do with all the money you got the
last four or five years with the skyrocketing assessments. My
issue is there's minimal actual relief to people, and there's
going to be no relief by the time you factor
in the assess continue to go up. Many school systems
are going to do referendums, and many local governments are
going to do these new local income taxes. So to me,
(08:09):
I'm fine with having the discussion about how much local
governments need to cut, which you know Briggs is upset
about that in this indisrpiece. I don't cry any tears
for those people. But I'm very upset about the lack
of actual cuts or or property tax relief that's going
to come back, which will basically be nothing, and I'll
(08:29):
probably end up paying more as well most people by
the time all the other taxes are factored in.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
You know, I as a private citizen, now I want
if my house is on fire, I want I want
the fire department. If there's something going on in my
neighborhood that is a problem with my safety. I want good,
good police. I don't want any chuck holes. I don't
want any potholes. I want good schools, good schools, aid
(08:56):
public safety and an educated public is right, And that's
what I think. I think the property taxpayer just wants
the bang for our buck and those government services that
make a community flourish.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Really what you're talking about, is a baseline of a good,
solid community that you're safe, you're educated, and.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
You can enjoy the fruits of your community. I think
that's what we all want.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You live in Karmel, I live in Brownsburg. Yes, it's
really hard when you have a taxpayer funded hotel, tax
pair funded palladium, reflexive pool, all the stuff they have
in Carmel, or whether it's being browns or we have
two football fields now, Jim, Yes, one wasn't enough. We
needed too. Yes, we have multiple field houses. We built
our athletic track in the wrong direction several years ago,
(09:46):
so we were going to build a new one of those.
It's hard to be doing all of these things and
then go, well, how are we supposed to pay the
bills if you get three hundred dollars of property tax reform?
Speaker 4 (09:57):
Longtime friend of mine I bumped into them in the
hardware store. He said, you know, I was driving by
the local high school and the front lawn has an
irrigation system in it.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
What's going on with that?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, it's and it is I mean the grand gios,
the excess that. I mean, it's local governments across the board.
I think the schools are the biggest example of it.
But there's I mean, they did nothing to really address
the core thing, which is, as long as the assessments
continue to rise, people's property tax are going to continue
(10:34):
to go up. It is utterly ridiculous. The whole premise
is I mean, there were really two sides of this
should not have been this hard. Number one, the past
five years have got totally out of control. There's no
reason people's property tax should be doubling or tripling. The
government is not getting two or three times better, Okay,
so we got to address that right. The second side
of this is how do we prevent this in the future.
(10:56):
And the answer is why am I being punished for
some other I selling his house and making money? Oh?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
The system is terrible in regards to assessment. And all
the way back to two thousand and seven, two thousand
and eight nine, when when we're going through through these
these constitutional amendments regarding you know, putting a lid on
property taxes and the one two three percent on the
different types of property, there there were very few of
(11:26):
us that were screaming from the balconies to talk about
assessment and about about the subjectivity or the objectivity of
of gauging property. And and we did not, we the
legislature did not put any type of for the want
of a better word, governor on the assessment program because
(11:48):
you you looked at it from market value, and if
your neighbors property sold for double what yours is, you
suffered for it. And it was really the it's insane
on the devil in that detail and represent a former representative,
Tom Saunders, I remember him so well screaming about about
(12:10):
that we need to do something about assessments and we
did not.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, the whole premise of that is messed up. However,
I'm loath to defend you guys, but you know, I
think there was always this premise of, hey, your assessment
went up one percent, or your assessment went up two percent,
you know those sorts of things, or you know your
bill went up one percent or whatever. Hey, your bill's
up thirty dollars higher than it was the year before.
(12:35):
Not that it makes it okay. Not that the property
taxes at all are okay, But I think when you
guys were trying to build and you crack me up wrong,
some sort of collective here you never envisioned, Hey, three
over three years, peop are going to pay double what
they were paying. You know.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yeah, but we get paid for as as I always say,
seeing in front of.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Our headlights and wait, wait, are we about to have
a moment where you're dumping on the general set and
I'm defending them.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Oh, I think go for it. Damn.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I think we made a big mistake by not not
anticipating you know, massive inflation that happened during COVID. We
didn't anticipate. And if my dad taught me anything in
businesses anticipate problems. And and we should have had some
sort of you know, bumpers if you will, or or
(13:23):
some sort of guidance. And but but we have evolved
into an assessor, uh, choosing to decide what the value
of her house is rather than having a really tight
explanation and as well as being very transparent about it,
because it isn't in the system needs a complete overhaul
(13:44):
when it comes to assessment.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Is the other part of this that you well, you
just hit on it, which is so I feel like
I know property taxes better than about nine Robert.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
I was really surprised how deep you went on this.
You knew it very very well, but more than I did.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
No nobody cut more property taxes than me at a
local level.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I just wish when you went over the governor's office
that time that you would have lectured them on it
because you knew more than they did.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Well, that's okay, We'll get to that in a second,
because you look, you know, I'm never gonna miss a
chance for somebody tell me how smart I am. But
one of the issues we will come back to that
now you'd hit on it, which is the assessor. And
like I said, I feel like I know this better
than about ninety nine point nine percent of the population.
When I get my property tax bill, I've appealed at
multiple times, I've won multiple times. I kind of know
(14:30):
what I'm doing with this. But I got a revised
property tax bill this year, and incredibly it went in
my favor, which is shocking. But they said something to
the effect of the reason the byline or whatever they
call that was neighborhood assessment air and I'm reading that, going,
(14:51):
what in the world does that mean? I guess I
can call and find out, But it ended up going
to my favor. So I don't even have the time
or the like. But if I don't get it, Jim,
there's no I live this world. They're ridiculous of the systems.
This complextent.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
You think about a ninety year old senior citizen and
he or she sees that, and they have no idea
what that is, and and there's nowhere that you can
find easily that would know that. There's no description whatsoever.
And and it's not a user friendly system whatsoever. Way
back when when we had the Shepherd Kernan Kern and
(15:27):
Shepherd report, I introduced a bill that eliminated all the
township fire departments in Marion County and and and full
them into i FD. Well I lost that bill twenty
three twenty five. And it was hard bill, but it
was it was a part of the Shepherd you know,
Kern and Kern and Shepherd movement of eliminating and you
(15:47):
know township assessors went by the wayside. But that was
an effort back in Miss Daniels days as governor where
we were trying to get rid of local government that
that wasn't necessary and and and a lot of it failed,
but it wasn't for what you know, we tried. And
so the bottom line here is number one, we need
(16:10):
to make a better effort to that to not have
township trustees. And and because some of the efforts are
are are duplicative, and we need to do a better
job with fire territories rather than rather than having individual
fire departments and townships and just all sorts of things.
(16:30):
And that's what you're seeing here. But people don't understand
when they when they see duplicative services, and then they
have their property taxes doubly that is a problem.
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information called eight one two, four four three three zero
zero three. Statehouse Happenings also wants to thank our fine
friends at Freedom Foods Indiana. Farmer Ryan Schleiman and the
(17:50):
folks at Freedom Foods Indiana have been delivering fresh fruits
and vegetables right to people's doors for years, and Freedom
Foods Indiana is a big supporter of State House Happenings. Now,
Freedom food Indiana has some big things coming. We can't
wait to tell you all about it in the near future.
Right now, though, we just want to say thanks to
our friends at Freedom Foods Indiana for supporting State House Happenings.
(18:11):
Rob Kendall, Jim Merritt. The program is State Ho's Happenings,
your weekly look at what's going on with Indiana politics
and government. I feel like, you know, all my life's
a circle. We've come all the way back to talking
about property taxes again. This article by James Briggs and
The Indie Star sort of the catalyst for this talking
about the damage that the property tax bill is doing.
From the background on it, look, Briggs and I come
(18:31):
to the same conclusion for very different reasons, which is
it's a horrible, horrible bill. It's gonna do a lot
more damage than any good it would do. Is one
of the reasons the bill ended up being so bad
is that Braun never really wanted to deal with this.
Like he went kicking and screaming, now, let's get to
(18:51):
the me portion of the program. Shall we do me right?
Like Braun didn't say anything about property taxes during the camp.
During the primary campaign, it was almost non existent. He
was pooh poohing it. People got into it with him
about it. And then he wins the primary and these
polls start coming out going, ah, you know it's not
(19:12):
it's not a runaway you think it's going to be
because you're kind of unlikable. And so then he's got
to make a choice of, Oh, if I lose the
Conservatives the way Holcombe did, I could conceivably not win
the governorship, you know, rain Waters running again. And so
he sort of went by force into this thing because
he felt like candidly, I mean, they needed our audience,
(19:36):
they needed these people to vote for him, and they
didn't really want to do it. And when your heart's
not in something this big and most importantly this complicated.
You're not going to get something good because you got
to really want it.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Yeah, well, you know, I think that's a factor. I
also think the factor of the General Assembly studying income
taxes for two years and wanting to put that way,
and then the populace with the with the citizens citizens
read uh is talking to them about their property taxes.
You've got a mess. You've got a collision. And I
(20:10):
think that's also what happened. And when you have that collision, uh,
and you have a you have a supermajority, and a
lot of the members are coming out of their gyms,
coming out of their churches, coming out of their grocery
stores when they've talked to people about their property taxes,
and and and you have all this information about income taxes.
That those those two forces collided, and when it collided,
(20:34):
you have senebil one. And and they're trying to like
I said, they're trying to get uh, they're trying to
get taxation income uh, taxation to the locals and away
from property taxes. And you just can't do that in
a vacuum, in a in a in a long session obviously,
but you've got a lot of members who are you
(20:58):
know their interest in property tax and it's like turning
a cruise ship around in a creek.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, okay, before we get off this guy, before we
end the show, I would definitely want to get to
what's going on in Carmel real quick. But I made
a huge mistake being nice to these guys, didn't I
trying to work with them. In hindsight, I should have
just gone on my instinct, which is a new bron
was a snake. But I so badly wanted this thing
to get done now now, Robert, my text I should have.
I should have just been very mean to them the
(21:25):
entire Remember my text with which one you sent me
many over these? My text was usually starts.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
With sun when when you said I think there's a deal,
and I text you back, are you gonna.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Blow this up?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I tried, Well this you didn't and uh, and I
did my power. I came about two votes shortened. Senate
got real close.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Well you you you took calls next morning, you remember, Yeah,
and your populace was unhappy and and but but the
bottom line is this this complicated Local governments are are
are royal by this, and they're trying to figure out.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
How to get for me to be all right, got
about six minutes left in the show. I wanted to
hit on this because you live in Carmel, I do
gonna be fascinating to get your take on this. The
the you Are Current, which is the sort of the
tawny newspaper there right or the city newspaper. Right, they
have a fascinating article about the mayor of Sue Fink,
(22:23):
the mayor of Carmel, Soue finkom sending these emails out
basically lecturing council members about their treatment of city employees.
And I don't even like, I don't it's fascinating to
I don't even know where to begin with this, which
(22:43):
is rare because this is so ridiculous to me that
that is what her focus is on, because they didn't
say anything to me that is, you know, over the
top inappropriate. You shouldn't be doing that, you know, I
just and these these are the same sort of the
same councilmen who are really giving her a lot of
(23:04):
pushback over some of the things she's trying to do
with the city government. What an embarrassment for the city,
And you're the Carmel resident on this is this all
y'all have to do in Carmel with your.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Time is well.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
First of all, I love living in Carmel because there
are no no potholes. I'm I feel safe. And uh,
police and fire are wonderful. You should, yes, but there
is a cost to security. It shouldn't be that much.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
But also Jake.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Allen in Indianapolis Star this morning, UH has a headline
in this article a real breakdown and communication and trust
colon Carmel City Council spars with mayor.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Obviously this is embarrassing.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And and and there.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
They have a real problem. Uh.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
You know, you you had Mayor Brainer in the council
and and lots of arts funding and all all everything
that happened in those twenty four years that he was
mayor and in a very working with the with the
council and lots of respects. And then and then Sue
f InCom comes in as mayor, and you've got some
(24:16):
disrupt and she's she is trying to move arts funding
to an outside not for profit called either Carmel Experience
or Experienced Carmel. And she's trying to change what is
going on with Carmel government. And and and she's challenging
the council, and the council is challenging her.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
They've got a little bit of an HR problem here.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
And Uh, okay, but like the guy that she's one
of these guys she's mad at. I think Matthew Snyder
is his name, right. He described the communications the director
of the city's marketing communications, as being quote all dolled
up for a television interview. That's what she's mad about. Yeah,
that's you got so little going on in Carmel that
(25:00):
that's worthy of an email.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
That's embarrassing.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
And uh and so I I it comes out in
print because Carmel's the best place to live in the
state of Indiana. And and and you live it in
your public and you're every and it's all out there
too well, uh for everyone to see. And I I
don't understand it. I wasn't in the room.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
But they've got bigger problems than that, and and make
and getting a mudget budget pass and and right now
the council and the mayor are as a headline sin
are sparring about everything, including uh, including HR.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Now, now she's on my list, as I'm sure you're
aware of people that are not in favorable standing.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
You haven't been kind to her.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Uh, and she deserves every unkindness that she's gotten from me.
So I'm I don't unless these guys got their pictures
in a post office somewhere. I'm team these council guys,
because anybody can make her life harder. I'm on their team.
But this is like, like they're not handing over emails
about legal expenses. It's like, what, what is what is
(26:10):
going on here? Like this stuff just all seems so funny.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
My friends in the council, my friend the mayor, stick
to the budget, get it done, keep me safe, and
and uh and and let's let's have a great community
and and uh, just don't get stuck with the small stuff.
And that's what you're getting right.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
And the reason we talk about this at the State
House happening show mean that weouldn't try to touch on
things that affect the entire state. I think, next to Indianapolis,
Carmel is the probably the second most important city and
in the state of Indiana.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
I think I think Carmel and Hamlet County as a whole, is,
along with Indianapolis, really is the motor for the State
of Indiana, and in the regards to income tax that
goes into the general fund, and and and uh, it's
so imperative that that we have a vibrant Indianapolis and
we have a vibran Carmel and for that matter, Fisher's Noblesville,
(27:03):
and and uh in.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Westfin's going down with all these these mayors though in
Hamilton County they're all basically like the same guy. Now
they're they're wearing vests, they're building a Soviet block style apartments,
like they're going out of style. Like what what happened to?
Hamilton County? Used to be such a fine and fine
and decent place. Twenty years ago. I worked in Hamilton County.
(27:26):
It was other than the trip being a little long
and thirty one being a bit of a traffic backup,
it was a fine place to be.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Thirty seconds. Have you ever been to a rodeo?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
No, Well, in a rodeo, uh, you're you've got a
horse that is bucking and all they're trying to do
is is guide that bucking horse and not get thrown off.
And these mayors there's the cities are growing, they.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Want they're doing the growing gym.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Yeah, they're growing, but they've got popular population growth and
and they're trying to keep their schools in great shape.
And I mean it's very difficult. I can see it
from the outside looking in, and I understand what they're
going through. And then you've got the property text issue,
and so they're trying to just keep everything moving forward
and making sure they're not bucked off.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well, I got all dolled up for this show today, Jim,
and it was a pleasure to be here with you.
Jim Merritt, Thank.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
You, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I'm doctor Jim Dalton, President and CEO of Daymar. Daymar
is a critical resource for thousands of people in Central Indiana,
and it takes people like you to give them hope.
With over thirteen hundred employees and hundreds of volunteers, Daymar
is always looking for people to come aboard. Whether it's
a career or simply donating your time. There's a place
for you here at Daymar. Learn more about our mission
(28:37):
at daymark dot org.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
At the Honeysuckle Hill bestro In Cottage located off I
seventy and Beautiful Brazil, less than an hour from downtown Indianapolis.
Their specialty is Hoo's your comfort food like Grandma used
to make, and just like Grandma's house. Their goal is
for you to leave more at peace than when you
came in. The Honeysuckle Hill bestro In Cottage featured some
of the best made from scratch food in the state,
(28:58):
and they're chicken and pork right here in Indiana. The
Honeysuckle Hill bestro In Cottage is open five to eight
Friday and Saturday and Sunday, featuring their incredible breakfast buffet
from eleven to two. For more information call eight one
two four four three three zero zero three. State House
Happenings also wants to thank our fine friends at Freedom
Foods Indiana. Farmer Ryan Schleiman and the folks at Freedom
(29:20):
Foods Indiana have been delivering fresh fruits and vegetables right
to people's doors for years and Freedom Foods Indiana is
a big supporter of State House Happenings. Now, Freedom Foods
Indiana has some big things coming. We can't wait to
tell you all about it in the near future. Right now, though,
we just want to say thanks to our friends at
Freedom Foods Indiana for supporting State House Happenings that is
(29:41):
going to do it for us this week. Thank you
so much for listening as always. For Jim Merritt, I'm
Rob Kendall. You've been listening to State House happenings
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