February 3, 2025 • 23 mins
Welcome to BIZ - the podcast that's rewriting the rules of work for a new generation.
Join Em Vernem (ambitious but efficient), Michelle Battersby (launched Bumble APAC) and Soph Hirst (ex-Google) as they tackle everything from dealing with difficult bosses to knowing if your side hustle can become your career.
In this first episode:
Asking for a pay rise is about as comfortable as explaining to your boss why you've been late three times this week. But what if there was a way to do it that actually works?
Biz career coaches Michelle Battersby and Soph Hirst to share their proven framework for getting what you want at work (spoiler: don't mention your expensive oat latte habit).
Plus, they bust the myths about asking every year, using other job offers as leverage, and what to do if you get a 'no'.
Consider this your cheat sheet to having the money conversation - minus the awkward sweating.
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Hosts: Michelle Battersby, Soph Hirst and Em Vernem
Executive Producer: Georgie Page
Audio Producer: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma May acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello, it's m vernom
here dropping into your feed to introduce you to a
brand new podcast from Mamma Mia. Biz is the podcast
rewriting the rules of work for a new generation, and
each week I'll be joined by our career coaches and
business experts Michelle Battersby and Sophurst as they tackle everything
(00:38):
from dealing with difficult bosses to knowing if your side
hustle can actually become your career. In the very first episode,
we learn the art of asking for a pay rise successfully.
Check it out. Welcome to Biz, the podcast that's rewriting
the rules of work for a new generation. I'm m
(00:58):
Vernon and look, I would describe my work ethic as
someone who's a career driven girl boss, but I'd also
like to clock off at four PM. Career success isn't
to me, but I just want someone to kind of
tell me what the shortcuts are. The good news is
my two co hosts give excellent career advice and they
know a lot about business. Michelle Battisby launched bumble into
(01:22):
this region and now she runs her own startup called Sunroom.
It helps people monetize their content. And when I enter
the workforce in twenty eighteen, look Michelle was the person
I wanted to be. She's literally thezillennial woman's career idol.
My other co host, Sophhirst, is an ex Google marketing
manager and she's the founder of work Baby. It's a
(01:42):
career coaching program for people in their early career era
like myself. Mission sof have been bosses, managers, employees, and employers,
and the way this show is going to work is
that they're going to share all of their knowledge with
tired career girlies like myself. First start being how to
ask for more money?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
How much money can I realistically ask for? I don't
know what's reasonable and what's considered a promotion? I I
do you where to start?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I swear all my male friends have no problem asking,
but I just feel so embarrassed.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I just don't know what to say.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I think I once went in and said, could I
maybe look at I don't know, like maybe a pay
rise in six months and my boss said yeah, sure,
and then never spoke of it again.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
It's so icky talking about money.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I remember going into a pay rise meeting. I had
all my ducks in a row. I knew everything I
was going to say, and the moment I got in
there and stirred down the barrel at my boss, I
got so nervous and completely froze and we didn't even
get to that part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Talking about pay rises is about as comfortable as when
you have to call in sick when everyone saw you
taking three tequila shots. I'd worked drinks to the night before.
But luckily our beer's career coaches, Michelle and Sof are
going to share exactly what the expert secrets are on
how to nail that conversation. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So, salary is kind of a weird thing to talk
about work. I actually I think it's very awkward to
talk about money. You need to go and there's a
lot of bad advice doing the rounds on social media
about how to actually ask. So We're gonna bust some
Paarise myths and I answer your big questions about asking
your big boss for more cash. Michelle, you worked in HR,
(03:24):
so I imagine you've been behind the scenes at quite
a few pairrise conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Yeah, I feel like I've seen the good, the bad,
and the ugly. I once saw someone get a six
figure pay rise off the back of going and getting
a job offer from another company, So we can talk
about if that's do or I don't. And I've also
seen people get a bit emotional, get a little aggressive,
maybe bring a pay rise up as a condition or
(03:50):
an ultimatum, which is not the best way to go
about it, as it can move away from the facts
and be counterproductive to the argument.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I think it can get very personal. Something I actually
love doing with my clients is you do this sort
of mental flip so instead of they're sitting there thinking
why do I want a pair rise? Why should I
get a pair rise? Try to imagine yourself as your
boss and think why should I give Michelle a pay rise?
Why would I want to give Michelle a pay rise?
So you want to frame it all as the kind
of value and the benefit to the company. If you're
(04:20):
thinking that why a company would want to give you
a pay rise, It's really about a lot of the
time retaining good talent. It's really expensive to hire new talent,
and they really do want to retain good talent. So
this EPP is all about helping you prove that you're
good talent.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Okay, So let's bust some of those myths. I went
out on my socials and I asked people, what do
you want to know about pay rises? And I got
a ton of questions back, So let's get into it.
Probably one of the most common was when should I ask?
And should I be asking every year? So I'm very
(05:09):
keen for your take on this. Do you think it's
okay to ask for a payrise every year?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah? If you are on TikTok, everyone says yes, you
should be asking every year. So, first of all, I
think there's a lot of variation in terms of how
companies approach pay rises. So first find out what the
deal is at your company. At smaller companies, they probably
don't have much process and your manager is probably the
person that's going to approve it. At bigger companies, there's
probably a very formal process. You know, Google, it was
(05:36):
very formal and transparent, and the person you are actually
asking your manager is probably several levels away from the
person who's actually approving it. So first, I think, just
understand how the process works at your company. I think
it really helps have mates in HR or in the
finance team to know when budgeting happens and things like that.
But back to the question, so should you ask every year?
(05:57):
I actually really know to this, and I'll tell you why.
I think the ideal situation that you want to get
in is that you've actually created a reason that your
compensation should change. So that's like a change in your skull.
So you've got more experience and you're better at your
job now, so you're actually delivering more value to the company,
and you want to approve that. I think just having
this artificial timeline your head of like every twelve months
(06:18):
I'm gonna ask isn't really the right approach. And I
think it's more about what's changed and what can you
kind of package up and proof has changed and therefore
you deserve a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I love that because I obviously do spend too much
time on TikTok because my default was yes, I do
think people should be asking for a pay rise every
twelve months, But my perspective is rooted in those people
actually having performed, Like I'm assuming that all those people
are top performers and they are contributing to the organization.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
They have evolved, they have developed.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
So if you're sitting there wondering if I should be
asking for a pay rise every twelve months, I feel
like the answer is yes. If you are getting shit
done and you're moving the needle in your role, what
are you thinking.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
About cost of living and inflation and if employers should
be giving pay rise based on sort of that changing.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
So I actually think inflation is worth being aware of,
Like that actually is a reason and maybe why you
could rationalize asking.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
For a pay rise every year.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
But you absolutely should not be bringing up inflation as
the reason why you deserve one, Like just because inflation
has occurred does not entitle you to a pay rise.
And I think if you went into a conversation and
that was your leading argument from an employer perspective, it
comes across as a bit of a weak argument, like
give me your actual tangible results, don't just default to inflation.
(07:38):
But we also need pay rises to ensure we're able
to live, to survive, to pay our rent, to buy
our groceries. So I do think it's a reason why,
like seeking a pay rise every twelve months is like
reasonable from a human perspective, but you still need to
be backing it up with how you improve the company performance,
otherwise you're just not going to get the pay rise
(07:58):
from your employer in the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I did some research into whether the employers actually plan
to give pay rises, so there was a say you
were link it in the show notes, but it said in Australia,
ninety six percent of employers and your pay rises in
twenty twenty four. A third of that was actually flat
for all staff, fourteen percent was to match inflation, and
twenty eight percent was actually based on performance. So even
(08:20):
if your company is planning to give pay rises, it's
still going to be mostly based on performance, So you
need to sort of prove value you're delivering.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Yeah, and if inflation was like two percent or three percent,
for example, you would want more than a two or.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Three percent pay rise.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
So that's another reason why you wouldn't really want inflation
to be the basis of your argument.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But it's more just a personal reason I think.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I think if you're unsure if you're even paid a
fair rate, a really good place to start is to
go to a website like Hayes or Hudson and look
at market data that will give you an indication of
what people in similar roles to you in your city
are being paid. And I think that's a very good
start if you're just going in completely blind. Back to
(09:04):
my point earlier around if getting offers from other companies
is a good way to get a pay rise or not,
I actually do think interviewing at other jobs is also
a very good way to get a read on what
you might be paid out there in the market. But
I do think if you are then going to use
an offer to try and get a pay rise in
(09:25):
a job you're already in, you definitely need to be
willing to walk away. So if you're interviewing somewhere else,
you have to be down to take that role, because
you might not always bring that offer to your employer
and they might not match it. They might say no,
worries see you later.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So you have to be.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Strategic and like intentional about how you go about that.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
If that's a process you're going to follow, what do
you think, Yeah, No, I agree, I think it can
be really effective. I think it's massive risk. So the
point that you mentioned before, you have to be willing
to walk away. Another big question is how much do
I actually ask for what's actually going to have an
impact on your life. So like anything less than five
percent after tax is taken out a month and month,
you may not really notice that. And then if you're
(10:05):
getting sort of up to the you know, twenty percent,
that's really a promotion there are for and that's big jump.
So I think it's somewhere in the range at five
to fifteen is probably what people are thinking about in
terms of pay rise, but it's going to be based
on so many different factors.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Amazing. Okay, another question was I feel too uncomfortable asking
is it really worth it? What do you think?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
This is my approach to life. I think in general,
tough conversations are worth it at work and in life.
So you know, a good way to think of that
is that good leaders ask for what they want and
need at work all the time. So in a way,
you doing this is actually a demonstration of your leadership
and you shouldn't feel scared about it. That said, it
(10:47):
does take work and preparation, and if you go into
it without prepping, there is a risk that you show
up as not being able to read the room, that
you don't really have your shit together, and I think
there is a risk to it, and also it's just
like a ton of efforts. So I think you really
want to ask yourself how much of an asking for
is there really a case for this? Like have I
actually delivered, you know, met expectations, exceeded expectations, has my
(11:10):
role changed? And then I think that that line around,
there's no harm in asking, just ask. I do think
there is a harmon asking if you don't do the
prep and you don't really have a case, and you
haven't read the room. Chase that into account and then
if all those things are a yes, then go into
it with like this is you showing leadership and it's
actually going to be an excellent learning experience for you.
Do not be scared, and I think probably especially women,
(11:33):
more of us should be up scared.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
I think that's such a good answer, no notes from me,
and I think it really moves into the next question
very well, which is should I ask if my company
isn't performing about reading the room. I think you can
ask for a pay rise if your company isn't performing,
but you need to be damn sure that you're still
(11:55):
contributing to the company's objectives. And I think when you
approach the conversation, it would be you know, I know
as a business we haven't reached X, Y, and Z,
but I've got some ideas about how we can do
that in the next quarter. And here's how I'm going
to move that for you. You're showing empathy and compassion,
you're aware that the company isn't quite there, and you're
(12:17):
showing up like but I'm focused on that, and here's
how I'm going to improve that for all of us.
Because I think to your point, if you don't read
the room in that kind of environment, if you don't
do that, well, I don't want to scare people, but
it actually could make you a.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Bit of a target. So it's good for.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Everyone to be aware how you contribute to the business consistently.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I also think it's a long game as well that
sometimes you have to play. So maybe you're going to
ask and then they're going to say no, and then
six months later you sort of want to say to them, well,
if it's a no, now what would it look like
what to take for it to be a yes? And
sort of start climbing message. But yeah, working on it
with your manager together, there's sort of no HRM in asking,
knowing that it might you know, but it might be
yes later. Cool.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
So that's your big questions answered. Now you're probably thinking,
so how the hell do I actually ask? That's on
the way.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Next, So how do you actually ask for a pay rise?
Remember your mindset, get inside your boss's head. Frame it
in terms of the value actually bringing for the company.
(13:26):
Don't make it about you and your personal financial situation.
For example, don't mention that you're saving for a house
deposit or you know, mentioned cost of living. We're going
to make it all about the company and the value
you're delivering. Don't be scared. You have the right to ask,
and it is showing good leadership. Okay, Michelle, you are
an HR expert. Tell us how people can think about
(13:47):
framing their value.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
This is a very simple framework. Or you can think
about it just like three prompts, and this is what
you're going to sit down at your desk and think
about before you go into these conversations. And the prompts
are experience, role, and output. So when you think about
your experience, you're obviously thinking about how many years you've
been doing the job. What unique insights do you also
(14:11):
bring based on that experience. But I think when it
comes to advocating for a pay rise, when you've been
at the company for a few years, for example, it's
how has your experience grown? Have you done courses leadership,
have you been on training camps, have you gone to
conferences around the world, whatever it is, you're really thinking
about how you've grown your skill set and your knowledge.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I love that. So it's not just experience in terms
of I've been here two years, it's actually how have
you invested in improving your experience and the experience that
you have in doing that role. It's like expertise exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And I know we'll get to this, but that's also
something that you can also be asking for in these
performance conversations, like I want to do a training course
on X, I want to do this online course. Really
simple things people can do that I just think make
them sound and seem a bit smarter.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Is got a bit bored over the break? Did these
three online Harvard courses?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
You know, they're just really easy little wins that just
make you seem like you can. The second thing is role.
So how has your role evolved? Did someone go and
leave and you took on their responsibilities? Are you managing
more people, are you actually doing three jobs? Is your
job moving well beyond what the original job description was.
(15:27):
Those are things that you can use to advocate for
a pay rise.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
The biggest and most.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Important one though, is obviously your output. And this really
needs to be evidence and fact based, so numbers relating
to your KPIs, but always bringing it back to the
company's objectives as well, and as we've discussed, really leading
with what the business is trying to achieve and then
(15:54):
how you, as an individual have helped them get there.
So if you have an epic hack for this, because
you can also find yourself approaching these conversations, especially if
they only happen once a year in your business and
you've now forgotten half the things that you've done throughout
the year.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I always hated this so much. It's like summarize twelve
months of your work into six bullet points, and I
you know, you never remember what you're gonna do. So
the best hack that I found to doing this is
actually just too every time that you have an example
of good work, and that might be results metrics, it
might be something a client has said about you, it
(16:30):
might be something a coworkers said about you and slack
anything that is like you doing good work, You're gonna
screenshot that and just throw it in a folder on
your desktop. I try and save like a couple of week.
And what you're gonna find is when you go through that,
you're just gonna jog your memory and gonna have all
these great examples. So that's the fastest hack I found.
The other thing people really struggle with is how do
(16:51):
you actually articulate your value and kind of summarize it
into a nice, neat little bullet point that sounds professional
and human whatever. I think it was a really good
question that you had from someone right around this.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Yes, another question that people kept coming through with was
how to articulate your value if you've contributed via a
lot of soft skills. So this could be things like
critical thinking, communication, influence leadership. And I think this is
important because how you get shit done matters. Like I
like to think about it, like soft skills achieve hard outcomes,
(17:26):
you know, So don't think just because you bring softer
skills to the table that you still can't articulate that
into a tangible bullet point. So so please tell us
how to do that you actually just took the words
out of my mouth.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, that's the thing, Like, it's the soft skills that
mean the company can actually do stuff that leads to
the hardship. So yeah, I wanted to give people away
that they can actually think about articulating their soft skills.
First of all, this is what a lot of people miss.
You want to give context to the points that you're
actually sharing. So it's not just about data points and stats.
(18:00):
It's actually give context. Why was it great or why
was it hard? So some examples would be, you know,
was it the first time that you did something like this,
Were there lots of different teams had to come together
for the first time, was there a really tight turnaround
time on this, Or you're dealing with tons of different
roadblocks and delays. So you want to shry and building context.
And then the main thing is to link that skill
(18:21):
to the actual impact and the results. So there's a
really great sentence you can use, and we're going to
put this in the newsletter. You want to say I
demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that, and then
you put the impact. So I'm going to give you
guys an example demonstrated leadership by bringing together stakeholders from
four different teams who have never worked together before to
(18:43):
collaborate on a project for the first time, which meant that.
So I think you can actually use context and then
link it to something that actually has impact and a
result attached to it.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Honestly, I feel like these will be so helpful for people.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I'm sitting here thinking I wish I could have so
in an earpiece as I do these conversations, but we're
actually doing that.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
This is it. I think we've made it super clear.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
So when you're going into these conversations, focus on the company.
I know as a company we've been working towards X,
Y and Z. Here's how I've contributed to that in
my role. And then use your structure. So what were
your three key words? Can you repeat them for me?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that result?
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Skill what which meant that result?
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Love it?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Okay, So what happens if they say no, slash we
don't have the budget right now?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, which probably will happen right Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I think in this situation, it's like I wouldn't take
no as meaning no full stop. It just means not
right now. This is an opportunity to continue the conversation
and as you said, play the long game. And I
also think you can ask for different things in the
meantime that aren't just monetary rightly.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So one of my favorite things to do is actually
if you get a no, then think about asking for
non financial pay rise. So that might be something like
there's this specific course that I really want to do.
It might be I really want this opportunity to work
on a specific project, or like a really cool mentoring opportunity.
You might want to travel a little bit more, so
maybe it's like, you know, can't take it to Melbourne,
(20:20):
whatever it is you want to be asking, and think
about non financial incentives as well. The interesting thing about
asking for non financial incentives or like a non financial
pay rise. If you think about like say you get
a pay rise and it's two thousand dollars and then
tax comes out of it, it's actually not that much
in the end. But there's this quote from Warren Buffett,
who's one of the most famous investors in the world,
(20:42):
and he actually says, by far, the best investment you
can make is in yourself. And so you might actually
be better taking that two grand and investing that in
your own skills and your own self instead of just
thinking about getting the cash.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Okay, So we're all about concrete action points here, it
biz So so what are they?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
So? One, do your research, understand how your company runs
the promotion and pay rise system and know the market
rates for your role and you're in industry. Two is
start planning early. So talk about what is expected of
you in your role with your manager. Make sure you
understand the big company priorities. Start your winds folder, and
(21:21):
you know, consider giving your manager a heads up like
this is something that I actually want to work towards.
And then three, make it about them, not you. So
this is about the value that you delivered. Grab Michelle's
experience role output framework in the newsletter and that will
have you totally sort it.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Okay, So listening to Michelle and so you guys, I've
been doing this all wrong. I didn't realize that I
shouldn't just walk into my boss's office and beg for
money just like Oliver Twist style. If you don't implement
a strategy, not only is your manager going to say
no to you, but you'd probably also give them the egg,
which I know we all know is way worse. So
(22:05):
here's what I'm actually going to do, and you should
too if you want more money but you hate those
awkward conversations. So first, I'm going to start keeping a
track of all of the good stuff I do at work.
Because I didn't realize my boss wasn't psychic and didn't
know I've been staying back late nearly every day this
past week. I mean, it's kind of rude, but it's understandable.
Then I'm going to go straight to Hayes dot com
(22:27):
dot au to figure out what I should actually be earning.
And finally, I'm going to practice saying I deserve more
money in the mirror, and I'm going to try to
do it without cringing, because apparently asking for what you
want is leadership. It's not being annoying, which is so
great to know. Thank you so much for listening to
our first episode of Bibs and Look, we want to
(22:48):
tell you that we are here to help. Well, Michelle
and Sofa here to help. Do not worry. I will
not try to help you myself. Think of them as
your new work mentors. They're ready to answer your actual
work question. So make sure you sign up to our
newsletter to get all the support you need. Plus our
Biz Inbox episodes dropped later in the week, where we
answer all of your questions and the biggest work shoes
(23:09):
that are trending on TikTok. See you next time. We
hope you enjoyed that very first episode of BIZ. If
you want to learn more about how to make the
most out of your working life, make sure you're following
BIZ in your favorite podcast app. There will be a
link in our show notes and join us on Thursdays
(23:32):
as we dive into the biz Inbox. It's a weekly
second drop from BIZ where we answer all of your
work related questions.
You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma May acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello, it's m vernom
here dropping into your feed to introduce you to a
brand new podcast from Mamma Mia. Biz is the podcast
rewriting the rules of work for a new generation, and
each week I'll be joined by our career coaches and
business experts Michelle Battersby and Sophurst as they tackle everything
(00:38):
from dealing with difficult bosses to knowing if your side
hustle can actually become your career. In the very first episode,
we learn the art of asking for a pay rise successfully.
Check it out. Welcome to Biz, the podcast that's rewriting
the rules of work for a new generation. I'm m
(00:58):
Vernon and look, I would describe my work ethic as
someone who's a career driven girl boss, but I'd also
like to clock off at four PM. Career success isn't
to me, but I just want someone to kind of
tell me what the shortcuts are. The good news is
my two co hosts give excellent career advice and they
know a lot about business. Michelle Battisby launched bumble into
(01:22):
this region and now she runs her own startup called Sunroom.
It helps people monetize their content. And when I enter
the workforce in twenty eighteen, look Michelle was the person
I wanted to be. She's literally thezillennial woman's career idol.
My other co host, Sophhirst, is an ex Google marketing
manager and she's the founder of work Baby. It's a
(01:42):
career coaching program for people in their early career era
like myself. Mission sof have been bosses, managers, employees, and employers,
and the way this show is going to work is
that they're going to share all of their knowledge with
tired career girlies like myself. First start being how to
ask for more money?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
How much money can I realistically ask for? I don't
know what's reasonable and what's considered a promotion? I I
do you where to start?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I swear all my male friends have no problem asking,
but I just feel so embarrassed.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I just don't know what to say.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I think I once went in and said, could I
maybe look at I don't know, like maybe a pay
rise in six months and my boss said yeah, sure,
and then never spoke of it again.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
It's so icky talking about money.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I remember going into a pay rise meeting. I had
all my ducks in a row. I knew everything I
was going to say, and the moment I got in
there and stirred down the barrel at my boss, I
got so nervous and completely froze and we didn't even
get to that part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Talking about pay rises is about as comfortable as when
you have to call in sick when everyone saw you
taking three tequila shots. I'd worked drinks to the night before.
But luckily our beer's career coaches, Michelle and Sof are
going to share exactly what the expert secrets are on
how to nail that conversation. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So, salary is kind of a weird thing to talk
about work. I actually I think it's very awkward to
talk about money. You need to go and there's a
lot of bad advice doing the rounds on social media
about how to actually ask. So We're gonna bust some
Paarise myths and I answer your big questions about asking
your big boss for more cash. Michelle, you worked in HR,
(03:24):
so I imagine you've been behind the scenes at quite
a few pairrise conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Yeah, I feel like I've seen the good, the bad,
and the ugly. I once saw someone get a six
figure pay rise off the back of going and getting
a job offer from another company, So we can talk
about if that's do or I don't. And I've also
seen people get a bit emotional, get a little aggressive,
maybe bring a pay rise up as a condition or
(03:50):
an ultimatum, which is not the best way to go
about it, as it can move away from the facts
and be counterproductive to the argument.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I think it can get very personal. Something I actually
love doing with my clients is you do this sort
of mental flip so instead of they're sitting there thinking
why do I want a pair rise? Why should I
get a pair rise? Try to imagine yourself as your
boss and think why should I give Michelle a pay rise?
Why would I want to give Michelle a pay rise?
So you want to frame it all as the kind
of value and the benefit to the company. If you're
(04:20):
thinking that why a company would want to give you
a pay rise, It's really about a lot of the
time retaining good talent. It's really expensive to hire new talent,
and they really do want to retain good talent. So
this EPP is all about helping you prove that you're
good talent.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Okay, So let's bust some of those myths. I went
out on my socials and I asked people, what do
you want to know about pay rises? And I got
a ton of questions back, So let's get into it.
Probably one of the most common was when should I ask?
And should I be asking every year? So I'm very
(05:09):
keen for your take on this. Do you think it's
okay to ask for a payrise every year?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah? If you are on TikTok, everyone says yes, you
should be asking every year. So, first of all, I
think there's a lot of variation in terms of how
companies approach pay rises. So first find out what the
deal is at your company. At smaller companies, they probably
don't have much process and your manager is probably the
person that's going to approve it. At bigger companies, there's
probably a very formal process. You know, Google, it was
(05:36):
very formal and transparent, and the person you are actually
asking your manager is probably several levels away from the
person who's actually approving it. So first, I think, just
understand how the process works at your company. I think
it really helps have mates in HR or in the
finance team to know when budgeting happens and things like that.
But back to the question, so should you ask every year?
(05:57):
I actually really know to this, and I'll tell you why.
I think the ideal situation that you want to get
in is that you've actually created a reason that your
compensation should change. So that's like a change in your skull.
So you've got more experience and you're better at your
job now, so you're actually delivering more value to the company,
and you want to approve that. I think just having
this artificial timeline your head of like every twelve months
(06:18):
I'm gonna ask isn't really the right approach. And I
think it's more about what's changed and what can you
kind of package up and proof has changed and therefore
you deserve a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I love that because I obviously do spend too much
time on TikTok because my default was yes, I do
think people should be asking for a pay rise every
twelve months, But my perspective is rooted in those people
actually having performed, Like I'm assuming that all those people
are top performers and they are contributing to the organization.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
They have evolved, they have developed.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
So if you're sitting there wondering if I should be
asking for a pay rise every twelve months, I feel
like the answer is yes. If you are getting shit
done and you're moving the needle in your role, what
are you thinking.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
About cost of living and inflation and if employers should
be giving pay rise based on sort of that changing.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
So I actually think inflation is worth being aware of,
Like that actually is a reason and maybe why you
could rationalize asking.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
For a pay rise every year.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
But you absolutely should not be bringing up inflation as
the reason why you deserve one, Like just because inflation
has occurred does not entitle you to a pay rise.
And I think if you went into a conversation and
that was your leading argument from an employer perspective, it
comes across as a bit of a weak argument, like
give me your actual tangible results, don't just default to inflation.
(07:38):
But we also need pay rises to ensure we're able
to live, to survive, to pay our rent, to buy
our groceries. So I do think it's a reason why,
like seeking a pay rise every twelve months is like
reasonable from a human perspective, but you still need to
be backing it up with how you improve the company performance,
otherwise you're just not going to get the pay rise
(07:58):
from your employer in the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I did some research into whether the employers actually plan
to give pay rises, so there was a say you
were link it in the show notes, but it said in Australia,
ninety six percent of employers and your pay rises in
twenty twenty four. A third of that was actually flat
for all staff, fourteen percent was to match inflation, and
twenty eight percent was actually based on performance. So even
(08:20):
if your company is planning to give pay rises, it's
still going to be mostly based on performance, So you
need to sort of prove value you're delivering.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Yeah, and if inflation was like two percent or three percent,
for example, you would want more than a two or.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Three percent pay rise.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
So that's another reason why you wouldn't really want inflation
to be the basis of your argument.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But it's more just a personal reason I think.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I think if you're unsure if you're even paid a
fair rate, a really good place to start is to
go to a website like Hayes or Hudson and look
at market data that will give you an indication of
what people in similar roles to you in your city
are being paid. And I think that's a very good
start if you're just going in completely blind. Back to
(09:04):
my point earlier around if getting offers from other companies
is a good way to get a pay rise or not,
I actually do think interviewing at other jobs is also
a very good way to get a read on what
you might be paid out there in the market. But
I do think if you are then going to use
an offer to try and get a pay rise in
(09:25):
a job you're already in, you definitely need to be
willing to walk away. So if you're interviewing somewhere else,
you have to be down to take that role, because
you might not always bring that offer to your employer
and they might not match it. They might say no,
worries see you later.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So you have to be.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Strategic and like intentional about how you go about that.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
If that's a process you're going to follow, what do
you think, Yeah, No, I agree, I think it can
be really effective. I think it's massive risk. So the
point that you mentioned before, you have to be willing
to walk away. Another big question is how much do
I actually ask for what's actually going to have an
impact on your life. So like anything less than five
percent after tax is taken out a month and month,
you may not really notice that. And then if you're
(10:05):
getting sort of up to the you know, twenty percent,
that's really a promotion there are for and that's big jump.
So I think it's somewhere in the range at five
to fifteen is probably what people are thinking about in
terms of pay rise, but it's going to be based
on so many different factors.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Amazing. Okay, another question was I feel too uncomfortable asking
is it really worth it? What do you think?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
This is my approach to life. I think in general,
tough conversations are worth it at work and in life.
So you know, a good way to think of that
is that good leaders ask for what they want and
need at work all the time. So in a way,
you doing this is actually a demonstration of your leadership
and you shouldn't feel scared about it. That said, it
(10:47):
does take work and preparation, and if you go into
it without prepping, there is a risk that you show
up as not being able to read the room, that
you don't really have your shit together, and I think
there is a risk to it, and also it's just
like a ton of efforts. So I think you really
want to ask yourself how much of an asking for
is there really a case for this? Like have I
actually delivered, you know, met expectations, exceeded expectations, has my
(11:10):
role changed? And then I think that that line around,
there's no harm in asking, just ask. I do think
there is a harmon asking if you don't do the
prep and you don't really have a case, and you
haven't read the room. Chase that into account and then
if all those things are a yes, then go into
it with like this is you showing leadership and it's
actually going to be an excellent learning experience for you.
Do not be scared, and I think probably especially women,
(11:33):
more of us should be up scared.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
I think that's such a good answer, no notes from me,
and I think it really moves into the next question
very well, which is should I ask if my company
isn't performing about reading the room. I think you can
ask for a pay rise if your company isn't performing,
but you need to be damn sure that you're still
(11:55):
contributing to the company's objectives. And I think when you
approach the conversation, it would be you know, I know
as a business we haven't reached X, Y, and Z,
but I've got some ideas about how we can do
that in the next quarter. And here's how I'm going
to move that for you. You're showing empathy and compassion,
you're aware that the company isn't quite there, and you're
(12:17):
showing up like but I'm focused on that, and here's
how I'm going to improve that for all of us.
Because I think to your point, if you don't read
the room in that kind of environment, if you don't
do that, well, I don't want to scare people, but
it actually could make you a.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Bit of a target. So it's good for.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Everyone to be aware how you contribute to the business consistently.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I also think it's a long game as well that
sometimes you have to play. So maybe you're going to
ask and then they're going to say no, and then
six months later you sort of want to say to them, well,
if it's a no, now what would it look like
what to take for it to be a yes? And
sort of start climbing message. But yeah, working on it
with your manager together, there's sort of no HRM in asking,
knowing that it might you know, but it might be
yes later. Cool.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
So that's your big questions answered. Now you're probably thinking,
so how the hell do I actually ask? That's on
the way.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Next, So how do you actually ask for a pay rise?
Remember your mindset, get inside your boss's head. Frame it
in terms of the value actually bringing for the company.
(13:26):
Don't make it about you and your personal financial situation.
For example, don't mention that you're saving for a house
deposit or you know, mentioned cost of living. We're going
to make it all about the company and the value
you're delivering. Don't be scared. You have the right to ask,
and it is showing good leadership. Okay, Michelle, you are
an HR expert. Tell us how people can think about
(13:47):
framing their value.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
This is a very simple framework. Or you can think
about it just like three prompts, and this is what
you're going to sit down at your desk and think
about before you go into these conversations. And the prompts
are experience, role, and output. So when you think about
your experience, you're obviously thinking about how many years you've
been doing the job. What unique insights do you also
(14:11):
bring based on that experience. But I think when it
comes to advocating for a pay rise, when you've been
at the company for a few years, for example, it's
how has your experience grown? Have you done courses leadership,
have you been on training camps, have you gone to
conferences around the world, whatever it is, you're really thinking
about how you've grown your skill set and your knowledge.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I love that. So it's not just experience in terms
of I've been here two years, it's actually how have
you invested in improving your experience and the experience that
you have in doing that role. It's like expertise exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And I know we'll get to this, but that's also
something that you can also be asking for in these
performance conversations, like I want to do a training course
on X, I want to do this online course. Really
simple things people can do that I just think make
them sound and seem a bit smarter.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Is got a bit bored over the break? Did these
three online Harvard courses?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
You know, they're just really easy little wins that just
make you seem like you can. The second thing is role.
So how has your role evolved? Did someone go and
leave and you took on their responsibilities? Are you managing
more people, are you actually doing three jobs? Is your
job moving well beyond what the original job description was.
(15:27):
Those are things that you can use to advocate for
a pay rise.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
The biggest and most.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Important one though, is obviously your output. And this really
needs to be evidence and fact based, so numbers relating
to your KPIs, but always bringing it back to the
company's objectives as well, and as we've discussed, really leading
with what the business is trying to achieve and then
(15:54):
how you, as an individual have helped them get there.
So if you have an epic hack for this, because
you can also find yourself approaching these conversations, especially if
they only happen once a year in your business and
you've now forgotten half the things that you've done throughout
the year.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I always hated this so much. It's like summarize twelve
months of your work into six bullet points, and I
you know, you never remember what you're gonna do. So
the best hack that I found to doing this is
actually just too every time that you have an example
of good work, and that might be results metrics, it
might be something a client has said about you, it
(16:30):
might be something a coworkers said about you and slack
anything that is like you doing good work, You're gonna
screenshot that and just throw it in a folder on
your desktop. I try and save like a couple of week.
And what you're gonna find is when you go through that,
you're just gonna jog your memory and gonna have all
these great examples. So that's the fastest hack I found.
The other thing people really struggle with is how do
(16:51):
you actually articulate your value and kind of summarize it
into a nice, neat little bullet point that sounds professional
and human whatever. I think it was a really good
question that you had from someone right around this.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Yes, another question that people kept coming through with was
how to articulate your value if you've contributed via a
lot of soft skills. So this could be things like
critical thinking, communication, influence leadership. And I think this is
important because how you get shit done matters. Like I
like to think about it, like soft skills achieve hard outcomes,
(17:26):
you know, So don't think just because you bring softer
skills to the table that you still can't articulate that
into a tangible bullet point. So so please tell us
how to do that you actually just took the words
out of my mouth.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, that's the thing, Like, it's the soft skills that
mean the company can actually do stuff that leads to
the hardship. So yeah, I wanted to give people away
that they can actually think about articulating their soft skills.
First of all, this is what a lot of people miss.
You want to give context to the points that you're
actually sharing. So it's not just about data points and stats.
(18:00):
It's actually give context. Why was it great or why
was it hard? So some examples would be, you know,
was it the first time that you did something like this,
Were there lots of different teams had to come together
for the first time, was there a really tight turnaround
time on this, Or you're dealing with tons of different
roadblocks and delays. So you want to shry and building context.
And then the main thing is to link that skill
(18:21):
to the actual impact and the results. So there's a
really great sentence you can use, and we're going to
put this in the newsletter. You want to say I
demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that, and then
you put the impact. So I'm going to give you
guys an example demonstrated leadership by bringing together stakeholders from
four different teams who have never worked together before to
(18:43):
collaborate on a project for the first time, which meant that.
So I think you can actually use context and then
link it to something that actually has impact and a
result attached to it.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Honestly, I feel like these will be so helpful for people.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I'm sitting here thinking I wish I could have so
in an earpiece as I do these conversations, but we're
actually doing that.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
This is it. I think we've made it super clear.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
So when you're going into these conversations, focus on the company.
I know as a company we've been working towards X,
Y and Z. Here's how I've contributed to that in
my role. And then use your structure. So what were
your three key words? Can you repeat them for me?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that result?
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Skill what which meant that result?
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Love it?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Okay, So what happens if they say no, slash we
don't have the budget right now?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, which probably will happen right Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I think in this situation, it's like I wouldn't take
no as meaning no full stop. It just means not
right now. This is an opportunity to continue the conversation
and as you said, play the long game. And I
also think you can ask for different things in the
meantime that aren't just monetary rightly.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So one of my favorite things to do is actually
if you get a no, then think about asking for
non financial pay rise. So that might be something like
there's this specific course that I really want to do.
It might be I really want this opportunity to work
on a specific project, or like a really cool mentoring opportunity.
You might want to travel a little bit more, so
maybe it's like, you know, can't take it to Melbourne,
(20:20):
whatever it is you want to be asking, and think
about non financial incentives as well. The interesting thing about
asking for non financial incentives or like a non financial
pay rise. If you think about like say you get
a pay rise and it's two thousand dollars and then
tax comes out of it, it's actually not that much
in the end. But there's this quote from Warren Buffett,
who's one of the most famous investors in the world,
(20:42):
and he actually says, by far, the best investment you
can make is in yourself. And so you might actually
be better taking that two grand and investing that in
your own skills and your own self instead of just
thinking about getting the cash.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Okay, So we're all about concrete action points here, it
biz So so what are they?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
So? One, do your research, understand how your company runs
the promotion and pay rise system and know the market
rates for your role and you're in industry. Two is
start planning early. So talk about what is expected of
you in your role with your manager. Make sure you
understand the big company priorities. Start your winds folder, and
(21:21):
you know, consider giving your manager a heads up like
this is something that I actually want to work towards.
And then three, make it about them, not you. So
this is about the value that you delivered. Grab Michelle's
experience role output framework in the newsletter and that will
have you totally sort it.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Okay, So listening to Michelle and so you guys, I've
been doing this all wrong. I didn't realize that I
shouldn't just walk into my boss's office and beg for
money just like Oliver Twist style. If you don't implement
a strategy, not only is your manager going to say
no to you, but you'd probably also give them the egg,
which I know we all know is way worse. So
(22:05):
here's what I'm actually going to do, and you should
too if you want more money but you hate those
awkward conversations. So first, I'm going to start keeping a
track of all of the good stuff I do at work.
Because I didn't realize my boss wasn't psychic and didn't
know I've been staying back late nearly every day this
past week. I mean, it's kind of rude, but it's understandable.
Then I'm going to go straight to Hayes dot com
(22:27):
dot au to figure out what I should actually be earning.
And finally, I'm going to practice saying I deserve more
money in the mirror, and I'm going to try to
do it without cringing, because apparently asking for what you
want is leadership. It's not being annoying, which is so
great to know. Thank you so much for listening to
our first episode of Bibs and Look, we want to
(22:48):
tell you that we are here to help. Well, Michelle
and Sofa here to help. Do not worry. I will
not try to help you myself. Think of them as
your new work mentors. They're ready to answer your actual
work question. So make sure you sign up to our
newsletter to get all the support you need. Plus our
Biz Inbox episodes dropped later in the week, where we
answer all of your questions and the biggest work shoes
(23:09):
that are trending on TikTok. See you next time. We
hope you enjoyed that very first episode of BIZ. If
you want to learn more about how to make the
most out of your working life, make sure you're following
BIZ in your favorite podcast app. There will be a
link in our show notes and join us on Thursdays
(23:32):
as we dive into the biz Inbox. It's a weekly
second drop from BIZ where we answer all of your
work related questions.
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