Emma & Sam [Part 1 of 2]: Long Term Love & Growing Apart

Emma & Sam have been together for many years, raising four kids in a blended family. With the last teenager about to move out of house, Emma & Sam are looking down the barrel of an empty nest, with only the two of them. But, Emma isn't sure if Sam wants the same future as she does, and he's already shown signs of drifting away, leaving Emma to wonder if they'd both be happier apart. 

Listen to Part 2 of Sam & Emma's sessions here. 

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
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• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters this podcast was recorded on. This podcast has been
produced with the strongest regard for the wellbeing of our participants,
all of whom have chosen to share their biggest relationship
struggles in the hopes of helping other people. All participants
have been provided with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
As a mom, I think you put your kids first and.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Then it becomes a natural instinct. Maybe even in your relationships.
I think you also spend so much time sometimes just
not wanting to upset the upper cart and not wanting
to make things uncomfortable for everybody, that you just deal
with it, but then end up in situations where you
just go, well, maybe I just go and.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
What me here and be on my own, and then
that would just be easier.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Welcome to this is why we fight real people, real problems,
real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical
psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples,
and families. This series has been designed to allow you,
our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of

(01:27):
other people who are grappling the challenges in their relationships,
because I firmly believe that we can learn so much
from each other. Today you're meeting Sam and Emma. Fifty
year old Sam and forty five year old Emma are
both teachers in the south coast of New South Wales.
For the past decade, they've been raising their blended family together.

(01:48):
They're here today to discuss something that is common with
couples as their kids get older and move out of home,
something called empty nesting, leading them to wander are they
on the same page about what they want the next
chapter of their lives to look like or is this
the end of the road for them. Here's Session one
with Sam and Emma. Emma, I'll start with you, what

(02:11):
drove you to initiate this process? With Sam?

Speaker 1 (02:14):
I initiated this process, I guess because we're at a
stage of our lives where, you know, with with blended
families eight years ago, and that journey is about to
change a bit because you know, three of the four
kids have turned eighteen doing their own sort of thing.

(02:34):
Got one who's you know, sort of almost finished high school,
and Sam's been at the later end of like his
two kids are that older, at the too older sort
of end, and I can see he's taking on these
things outside the relationship that are like the stuff that

(02:55):
you would just do on your own, you know, like
I just go play golf and I just hang with
the boys. And I think the past few years we've
had a few ups and downs, and my my kind
of wanting to talk through things would be about like
how do we go forward?

Speaker 3 (03:12):
You know, do we want to go forward together? We've
spent quite a lot of.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Time, you know, building, and you know it hasn't always
been easy blending families and you know, raising four teenagers
in a house with everything. But you know, is you know,
what does the next step look like for us? You know,
is it going to be asked or is it you
know kind of like, well, we've done the hard yards,

(03:37):
so we you know, do we want different things now?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
That kind of thing?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Okay? And in terms of the question of do we
want different things or is it that we're going to
continue together? What makes you question that rather than what
many other couples might go, Okay, the kids are almost
the kids are almost out, and it's now back to us.
What do we want to do. Yeah, there's a question.

(04:03):
I guess there that's a little bit different.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
I think I have a different view of where I
would like to be when the kids are gone, and
that is, you know, great this time, like that we.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Can travel and you know, without it being.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Too much like me projecting that I want to do
all the things I want to do. I guess coming
from a situation where being married before and and had to,
you know, kind of compromise on a lot of things,
and have had to compromise on things the whole way
because you know, I had kids.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
Very young, and.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
I kind of would like to know that that next part,
if it's not maybe a little bit selfish, is something
that is that you know, Sam wants to do together.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, and I don't think that's selfish.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Sam.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Do you maybe let me check in with you around that.
Do you feel like there are they're not compatible what
you want to be doing when the kids are all
gone versus what am it? Does?

Speaker 4 (05:08):
I understand where we want to get to, it's just
I can't get there until I'm there in terms of,
you know, breaking the cycle that we have now in
terms of our kids and our friendships and those sort
of things like we both have to end up on
the beach somewhere retired and no, no one really Yeah,

(05:34):
but I can't get there yet.

Speaker 5 (05:38):
I want to get there.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
I just I don't think of it the same way
as Ema does. We've got the same endpoint. I just yeah,
different mindset to be getting there.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
You say our endpoints are the same, But at the
same time, I still envision the way you, like, regardless
of moving when all of that, Like, regardless.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
Of that, no matter where we end up, I feel
like it'll be.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
You just doing I don't know, like the things you
want to do, but it doesn't always like most of
the time it won't involve me because it's very singular,
very like.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
You know, things that you can do on your own
with the blokes or anything.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
And I kind of feel like I don't I'm never
going to be at that point with you.

Speaker 5 (06:30):
Yeah, Yeah, I'll get that. I just.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
I suppose the life we're in now, which is the
working nine to five, that to me is not the
next life. And I feel like I can transition into
that quite easily if it's not here, If it's not.

Speaker 5 (06:55):
Yeah, in the.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
Same routine that we're at, Like, yeah, I need to
change the environment everything else to just go to that
next phase of so it's just you and IEA.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Is there the potential that by the time you guys
are ready for that next phase, if there hasn't been
much sort of overlap of doing things together, that there
might be less of a relationship left to then move
and do all that stuff that you do agree on

(07:30):
them when in your future together. I'm not sure if
that's where you're you're kind of coming from of that.
If I already don't feel a part of much of
a part of your life in the fun stuff we
do outside of here, is there a bit of a
disconnect happening.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, Yeah, I think that's that is where I'm coming from.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
I'm not thinking.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
Necessarily about the you know, the reality is the no
kid move sort of situation is at a minimum like
five years away, and like we don't even know where
life would be then with everything that is, like that
is one thing that we do seem to have that
we would want to do together. I think for me

(08:12):
it's more like in this moment, Yeah, the next sort
of few years, I guess there's a little bit of
like I'm you know, my mid forties and don't. I
don't want to wake up in my mid fifties and
be like, Okay, well, not that I'm saying it'd be
a waste, but just sort of be like, oh, well,
that we didn't get to the endpoint together, even though

(08:35):
you said that that's what you wanted, that kind of situation.
I know there's no guarantees, don't get me wrong, but
you know, like I think, for example, now, like you.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
You know, you don't have as much.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
To do with your two children because they're at a
stage where they're driving, and they've got you know, young
teenage or their teenage group, and they've got like their
whole lives that they're just doing their own things with
and you have sort of then taken on this like great, okay,
I'm going to go and take on all these things,

(09:10):
but they don't really involve me. And you know, with
your job, you throw so much into it, and then
the more time that you don't have to be at
home kids, the more you just take on more job.
So my worry is, then if that's what is the
pattern for the next few years, Yes, when I don't.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
Have you know, you know, well, the last child that
you know is you know, my last child at home.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
You know, is it going to be too late by then,
because you'll have just sort of gone off and lived
this sort of singular male life a little.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
Bit, and you know that distance will have been created
between us.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Do you feel the distance has already been created? Is
there some distance already?

Speaker 1 (10:04):
I think that Sam chooses to take on or do
things unlike when we started the relationship.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
With out involving me and I. You know, I think
we used to enjoy a lot more things together. What
do you think?

Speaker 4 (10:28):
No, I think the change of job is being massively
both invested heavily in a job that's so different than
school teaching, where I had structured hours and holidays and those.

Speaker 5 (10:41):
Sorts of things, and.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
You know, it's it's almost a passion project, but it's
also a job and I definitely have immersed myself, probably
too far in it. But it's hard to get out,
and you know, that's with our family situation.

Speaker 5 (10:59):
Like I've been able to do that because.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
My two kids are That's part of where I was
at to go because they were coming out of the
high school situation and independent and they're both adults now
and it just hasn't aligned with where I suppose we're
at in some respects but insane that Cama has been
fully supportive of me doing that and has probably been.

Speaker 5 (11:25):
The tree driver in being able to do that, and.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
I am supportive, and I.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Think though there's sometimes a limit to it, that it
needs to be recognized that it takes too much away
from you.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Know, our lives and Emma, when you notice that, do
you raise it with Sam?

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Sometimes I think I've I think I've recognized lately I've
I think I slowly started shutting not shutting down and
said that's with I think I've just stopped addressing things.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
I think that is part of the reason why I
think we wanted to do Oh, I wanted.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
To do this and bring this up is because I
think I've stopped.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
I've kind of gone to this I'll just be annoyed.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
And get on with it mode in the past few years, rather.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Than being like, no, I'm really upset and I'm angry.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
At that, and I recognize that's not a good way
to be, but I don't feel like that. I get
where Sam's coming from, because he has been lucky enough to.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
You know, work in this job that he's passionate about
and I don't want him not to do that, but
I also, you know, I want to we want there
to be more of a balance, and I.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
Think I have relationship, I'll put the job ahead of Yeah,
absolutely absolutely, I think that's.

Speaker 5 (13:06):
The key party.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
But I've been able to do this through Emma, but
then I haven't prioritized Emma in the whole process.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
And when Emma has raised it with you, so it
sounds like there were times where you had brought things
up before this sort of shutdown part where maybe you're
just not bringing it up anymore.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, I guess sometimes I felt like maybe I was
just being a winder or maybe.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
I was just like, just, you know, stop being such
a nagger about it.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Isn't he lucky that he's got a job that he loves?

Speaker 3 (13:39):
And I guess it hasn't been on the flip side,
you know.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Since COVID, both of us have had to have career changes.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
And mine wasn't as easy.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Because I had to transition from something I'd loved and
done for a really long.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
Time, but it didn't exist.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Unfortunately, it like the whole thing just evaporated basically, and
then trying to land that next thing has not been
as easy, and so I don't think it's jealous that
you've got something that you love, but it's more just
like maybe at times I feel like I'm being annoying

(14:21):
or winging because I'm like, well, you know, you just
do everything with your job and I don't have that anymore.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Like I don't have that position that I'm passionate and
love and I'm involved in anymore. It's just for me.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
It's just go to work and do the hours you
have to do and come home. And part of that
I've then thrown into the family life and the kids
and the house that you know needs stuff done around,
like really need stuff done around. And I guess I

(14:53):
get a little resentful, probably very resentful that you get
to have the passion job but you get to do
ninety percent of your time. Is that and the ten
percent is the homestoff. And yeah, I mean it comes
back to balance. But yeah, I think, sorry, what you
were saying is do I bring it up? But sometimes

(15:16):
I feel like I don't bring it up even though
I get angry about it because I think maybe I'm
just being maybe I'm not justified and being angry at it.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, And I mean it's interesting to think that the
first sort of reflection that you had about even wanting
to be able to do what you wanted in your
later years of you know, getting the kids to a
point where they can kind of look after themselves and
then now it's time for me to do things that
I want. The fact that that there was some self

(15:48):
doubt in that around like, is that selfish? Is that
even okay to think or want? And then now the
idea of asking Sam to give a bit of time
to you and to the relationship that also feels whether
it be selfish or unfair or am I unreasonable asking
him to take time away from his passion. So there's

(16:09):
this real like me having a need or wanting anything
is not okay or it's uncomfortable for you, Like you're
questioning whether it's okay.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, I guess that's true. I think.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
I mean, as a mom, I think you will, you
generally or you do put your kids first, and then
it becomes a natural instinct, maybe even in your relationships
that you.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Just like.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
You know, I also I don't like I think you
also spend so much time sometimes just not wanting to
upset the upper part and not wanting to make things
uncomfortable for everybody that you just deal with it, but
it's not always great.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
I get that.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Because you then end up in situations where you just go, well,
maybe I just go and not be here and be
on my own, and then that would just be easier.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
After this short break, we're going to dive into the
deep end of resentment, what it really is, what it
does to a relationship, and how to move beyond it.
Stay with us before you said the word resentment, you know,

(17:24):
like that's what breeds resentment is when we don't put
our needs out there or ask for things that we
want from our partner or anywhere at work, doesn't matter.
But you know, when I'm not putting my needs forward
and they're consistently not being met, eventually I'm either going
to disengage and withdraw or I will be resentful. And
maybe there's a little bit of maybe you're kind of

(17:45):
oscillating between both, so there's a bit of that shutdown
of like, okay, whatever, I'm just not going to have expectations,
you know, which is that protective mechanism when I keep
being hurt by something that is not being met or
I feel resentful, and there might be criticism or you know,
little things that come out in behavior when we feel
that way. And I don't know, if we go to

(18:07):
Sam for a second, whether any of this is news
to you or you know, are you aware that Emma
wants more time with you and that it hurts her
to the point that she's almost kind of, you know,
almost imagining a future without you because she feels that
you're not engaged in the relationship.

Speaker 4 (18:29):
Yeah, no, absolutely, Well I think that's why he's sitting
here right now. Like, yeah, I'm fully aware that some
of my sort of selfishness and immersing myself and the
things that I love has caused us to be sitting
here in this point. Yeah, I know that there's a

(18:52):
resentment there, and you know that the way that things
Utopia wise wanted to pan out haven't panned out. But yeah,
we're sitting here because we want to try and get
to the right point.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
So yeah, and like I think we've because you know,
leading up to this process, I guess we've had time
to reflect a little bit knowing that we would be
talking about things, and I think even knowing that we
have to address it has helped.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah. Yeah, it can be a lot can be done
before the therapy once we met the Yeah, and.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
Even just having like a focus of hang on, we're
doing this basically starting to think about ourselves with both
of them busy lives and kids and you just you
put it all to the side mm hm, and you
just checked on the daily life thing and when things

(19:50):
come up, your band aid them and say we'll be right,
we'll get through the next bit. We've probably done that
too often. And you know, the situation that we're sitting
in right now is potentially a really good opportunity to
air some grove into and on and a few things,
because we very rarely sit here on this catch together

(20:14):
without anyone else sort of saying can I have this?
And can you do this? And so we've sort of
we've actually locked out some time together to go.

Speaker 5 (20:24):
Let's focus on this.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
So yeah, Yeah, it's.

Speaker 4 (20:27):
Pretty obvious that we need to do more of that too,
you know, foster our relationship, and we just haven't done that.
And I'll take the responsibility. I haven't done that because
I've been doing that, you know, with work and.

Speaker 5 (20:41):
Kids, and she's you know, in the same boat.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
I think in the like we said, I think in
the lead up the past few weeks has been Sam
has actually made the effort I'm not going to I'm
not going to do that thing at work until like
really late. I'm going to actually just cut it off
and come.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Home, because you know, he doesn't have the typical like.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Nine to five job, and so at times it can
get quite like lengthy.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
And everybody's like needs a part.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
That's the thing too, is that like Sam has a
job where it requires everybody to have a piece of him,
you know, everybody and the emotional needs and the you know,
lots of different aspects of these people that he works with, lives,
he supports and does all this for. But and I

(21:41):
you know, don't get me wrong, it's something I love
about him that is just this, you know, has this
ability that people like really need to like lean on
him and go to him for a lot of stuff.
At the same time, it's been for me like, well,
I guess the past few years have felt like that's
their needs are more of a priority than the needs

(22:04):
of like, well, I'm having a crap day.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
But if I rang and said if I'm having a crap.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Day, you would be like, oh, look, I you know,
I still can't get there because such and such needs
to talk. And and I think the past probably six months,
I have shut down a lot because I just and
I think that's why we're at the point with this
is because I'm like, it would just be easier to.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Not rely on you for that need.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Then it would be to think that maybe that need
could be met or like maybe one day you'll not
do that or not prioritize that, so then again I'll
be a partie.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
And I'm not trying to take all everything.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
I don't want your undivided attention or I just want
to think that I'm not like you're not priority number one.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, I mean, Sam, it's a big risk, I guess
to have, yeah, to have known that this is how
Emma feels for a little while. And but there's obviously
been some type of struggle to change the behavior when
I said the behavior, to change, yeah, the structure or
the dynamic at work in order to make a bit

(23:23):
more time to carve out for your relationships. So in
terms of like how long it's been that you've been
aware and then the difficulty in trying to change anything
have is it that you haven't tried, Is it that
you've tried things but they didn't work. Is it that
it feels uncomfortable to try and implement something like what

(23:43):
do you think of in the barriers? If this isn't
news to you and you've been aware that Emma wants
more time attention like quality a couple.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
Time, Yeah, don't think it's I think I've learnt aware
the whole time. I think I'm so aware that Emma
will support me in this role no matter what. But
I think having been in the role for a couple

(24:13):
of years, I've been able to go hang on, what
at what cost has this role come.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
On?

Speaker 5 (24:23):
My personal off?

Speaker 4 (24:25):
And Yeah, I think it's been probably the last I'll
say four months, but.

Speaker 5 (24:32):
It's probably longer.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
But it's intense fight over the last four months where
I've probably realized that if something doesn't change, then this
ain't going to last.

Speaker 5 (24:45):
Basically, Yeah, And you.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
Know Emma has given everything to make it work, and
not just our relationship but the role I'm in work
with her investment in the things that I'm doing, and
it's probably been that investment she's given to that where
I've gone hang on, She's like doing everything to make

(25:14):
my half work.

Speaker 5 (25:16):
What am I doing? Yeah? Because when you're immersing a role.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
Where it's sort of people rely on you, and Emma's
jumped into that too, being relied on again by the
same people.

Speaker 5 (25:30):
I'm like, yeah, wow, Like she's willing to give of a.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
Lot of her emotional physical energy to support me, and
I can see the toll that's taken on her physically
when we come home together, because it's great to be
able to achieve those things together.

Speaker 5 (25:50):
But then I just see the toill and think, well,
you know, it's like.

Speaker 4 (25:54):
Looking into a mirror of times well when I didn't
invest in her. You know, she's worried about me giving
everything to someone something else and giving her nothing back.
So yeah, I suppose her investment in this process.

Speaker 5 (26:13):
Has shown me how it is.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
It's a huge not burden, but it's a huge drain
on us as a couple, and she's been willing to
do that. And I now realized that, you know, if
it was just me investing in it, well, that's that's
just going to implode, basically.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
So I think maybe it's that is I had a mentality,
I guess a bit at the start of the year.
We've had a couple of really tough sort of years
with external things to the relationship outside of work, and.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
I sort of thought, if I can't beat them, join them.
So I'm helping out.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
With Sam's work, and I guess it was kind of like, well,
I can't, He's there all the time, so I might
as well just volunteer and help out.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
And so I think it has helped us get.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Through a year where we're not in a situation where
you have previously kind of gone down this like really
hard truck towards the end of the seat at end
of the year, and things have got on top of you.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
And it's probably just given us both perspective on like, hey,
I get that that job's hugely draining, but I'm jumping
in with it, and it's what time we got left
for us. And he's that the priority in our lives.
Like that's been the reality of it. Like it's certainly

(27:47):
sort of.

Speaker 5 (27:49):
In the role that I'm in giving me a lot,
and I'm not sure how much longer I can do this. Yeah,
And that's where the ammas with me or not, because.

Speaker 4 (27:58):
I'm starting to prioritize that, well, we've got our life
and it's more important than you know, what I'm doing. Yeah,
so you know, her investment there is in coinciding with
what we're doing here is Yeah, Emma's made all the
effort towards going Hey, like, we ain't going to ask

(28:21):
we ain't going to last much longer unless we invest
in us. You know, I'm investing in you, but yeah,
I knowed to you know, I need to invest more
in in Emma.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
And what would that look like for you, sam to Yeah, like,
let's get sort of more specific, tangible examples of how
do you invest in Emma and in the relationship.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
Yeah, I think I just need to prioritize, you know,
making specific blocks of time available for us, and then
being able to say no to the things that come
up in my job to go know what, like this
is my job is not number one priority. It's to
get home. I need to do the things that I

(29:10):
need to do to ensure that you know, our end
goals of living on the beach and knowing no one
and enjoying each other's company can actually be choked.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Can I ask, though? Is it something you want to do?

Speaker 1 (29:26):
I mean, like, I'm not saying that you don't enjoy
time together, but the reality is, like, do you want
to spend that time, Like, do do you think that
when we do have spend.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Time together you enjoy it? Or do you think that
maybe you.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Like throw yourself into the work and the other things, because.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
Not necessarily avoidance, but just more like, well.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
It's not I don't actually enjoy hanging out that much,
Like is there something that we've lost over the time
that we just have we don't enjoy hanging out.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
And doing those things too.

Speaker 4 (30:06):
Yeah, no, stop definitely not the avoidance of trying to
hang out together.

Speaker 5 (30:10):
It's just priortizing the way.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Do you get the sense, Emma that that Sam doesn't
enjoy the time together or you just were just sort
of checking in.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Oh, I do a time think he doesn't. I think
I don't know if I've become like I know, I've
become older, Like that's reality, Like I know, I'm.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Not in my thirties and you know, hurting fun and
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
I guess I like different things now and maybe I
am a bit slower and I feel like.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
You're at times fastening wife up a bit.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
And you know, I get the feelings sometimes that I
am quite like I'm just not I'm too boring to
be around or something. I don't know, or we just
maybe we just don't enjoy the same things anymore when
we hang out, not all the time, just sometimes I

(31:18):
get that feeling.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, can you be specific? Am I like? Sometimes I
think it can help if it's sort of yeah being
specific of you know, I noticed that you like doing
X y Z and that's not what we do and
what we do together is X y Z And do
you actually like that? Like, can you be a bit
more specific?

Speaker 3 (31:36):
I don't know what we used to.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Do, but like on a Sunday now it just becomes
like you go sit in one room and drink beer
and watch TV and I'll sit somewhere else. And maybe
that's because we're just absolutely cooked from a busy week.
But I don't know, Like I feel like years ago,

(31:57):
not that long ago, we used to do things like
plan a weekend and go for camping or hiking or
just even slip away out of town for not even
for twenty four hours, even if for a few hours.
But we used to do those things together. And now
our weekends involve just being in our house doing nothing.

(32:21):
But when you want to do something, you will book it,
but you'll book it for you and you and your
mates to go do like you'll go book golf or
you'll organize to go to the pub or whatever. But
I guess what I'm saying is, I don't remember the
last time you were like, okay, I've booked us to.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Go stay and go for a camp or go for
a high court, like we just don't.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Our life sort of involves work, being at home and
there's nothing in between anymore.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
But there is in between for you because you plan
those things.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
And I understand I've got to and I've tried to
get a bit better at doing.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
My own thing.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
But I also I think part of this reason for
me is there's only so much I do want to
do as my own thing, Like I'll go and up
to my sisters, or I'll you know, go up to
Sydney or do something outside of us. And I enjoy that,

(33:27):
but I also don't want that to become the norm.
I don't want that to be the most enjoyable thing
because I guess from like, what I want out of
it this relationship is that those are the things that
we do together, but I don't know if they are
the things you enjoy.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
So I guess that's, you know, part of the reason
we're here is like, are.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
We at the crossroads where the things that you enjoy
doing are those things on your own with your mates,
you know, the golf and that, and then the things
I enjoy doing like those things, and are we going
to find a way to enjoy things together?

Speaker 5 (34:08):
Yeah that makes sense. I definitely like escaping at times,
like just.

Speaker 4 (34:16):
Let's go, like whether it's go for whatever, it is
just and it's not just it's not just escaping, you know,
it's getting away from everything. Yeah, yeah, I feel like
I need that. It's about to do that, But it's
not avoidance, just our daily life as in, I'm going

(34:36):
to get out of this.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Do you enjoy the things that Emma brought up getting
out of town for a day or for a night
or a little weekend or going for hikes camping, Like
is that something that you are interested in doing with
her or is it?

Speaker 4 (34:51):
Like yeah, absolutely, I just I think it's just so
hard to invest that time into that because of everything
else going on.

Speaker 5 (34:59):
Like it's but.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
I think what I'm saying is you find the time
to book, Yeah, book in advance, like weeks in advance,
like a golf but you don't book you know weeks
in advance, Okay, let's just go away or let's have
you know, when you spend time with me, it's like

(35:23):
on a Sunday, you go, Okay, let's let's now go
out for lunch because it's like last minute and I
haven't got anything else booked in, so let's go do that.
So I get the feeling like I'm not That's what
I mean by I say, I ask if you actually
do enjoy spending time with me, because you enjoy spending
time with me as small doses where you want someone
to go to.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
The pub and have lunch with. But outside of.

Speaker 4 (35:46):
That, yeah, I suppose those things are more okay, golf
in it.

Speaker 5 (35:54):
It's they're just more time consuming. It's not it is escaping,
but it's yeah, I'll get weeks.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
So there's something there around turning your attention to booking
in or scheduling that time with Emma as well, rather
than incidentally like oh, well we live together or you
know I see every day. Yeah, it's kind of that
can get taken for granted rather than I actually do
need to book in and schedule proper quality time.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, definitely need to be better at doing.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
That and that would be great as long as you
want to do that. I think that's my point, is
you want.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
To do Yeah, I do. I enjoyed doing those things.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
It's just yeah, I was just wondering, Emma, do you
have an issue with the other things that Sam is doing,
because you're yeah, I'm sort of hearing you really wanting
that reassurance that he wants to. It's almost like you
worry that he's being forced to or that he like
absolutely has completely changed lifestyle and that this lifestyle is
so unattractive to him or something. It's it's yeah, there's

(37:02):
something there.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
I think Sam's life is.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Is different to when we met eight years ago, and
that's a job and his hobbies and everything is different,
and that's fine, that's you know. I'm you know, happy
to adapt to all of that, and I think it's
really great that he has that. I mean, it'd be

(37:29):
I don't even wrong, would be worse if you had
no enjoyment outside of the relationship and you were just
always here, And you know, I know that it's got
to be a balance. I think I have started resenting
some parts of it because I feel like I'm always
the one that's like, oh, okay, so I'll book as

(37:49):
in and do this, and I'll do book to do this,
And it's almost like I'm the one organizing everything and
dragging you along to it because you don't ever book
anything and organize anything for us to do. But you
get I see how excited you get when you're like, oh,

(38:11):
I've got this booked in with this guy and it's
going to be great, and I'm really excited by that.
And I guess I feel a little bit resempful because
I think, well, you don't get I don't get any
of that, Like I don't get the ill guess what
I've booked us into, even the movies we're going to
go to the movies theater or something like. You don't

(38:34):
you don't have any of that enjoyment at all outside
of the.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Things that you plan for you and you and your mates.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
So I feel very kind of, I guess, a little
bit lonely, and please, I don't want to think that.
It's not that you shouldn't do those things, but there's
just would like a little bit of balance, you know,
between you working as much and then outside of that
it's all about the other things. I am so far

(39:05):
down the kind of life wrong with people to hang
out with that it gets you know, quite at times,
Like like I said, I could just go live a
completely different life and own and then I wouldn't feel
disappointed or upset or.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, I'm taking on a slightly different track, but I
do think it's related. Is there much affection between the
two of you, Like I'm thinking about bids for connection right,
so throughout the day or you know, when you're at
home or after work or whatever, when you guys are
just at home hanging out, is there Yeah, like is

(39:44):
there affection? Is there? You know, just those little things
that maybe playful or being silly, like, is there that
stuff still present?

Speaker 5 (39:52):
Yeah? I think so, I think so.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah, definitely, No, we we're very affectionate.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
You know, if you're sitting on a couch or something,
you have to pretend on you and make sure you're
okay or you know, like definitely, and we never you know,
we'd never leave the day or leave.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Each other without giving each other a kiss or by
or like.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
Yes, affection is not an issue like it's physically where Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Good, So there's a sense of enjoying each other's presence
and feeling close and connected in that way.

Speaker 5 (40:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:32):
Absolutely for me, I'm very physical my well we just
talked about in terms of booking things, and.

Speaker 5 (40:42):
That's just not my strength.

Speaker 4 (40:43):
Like I'm an affectionate, physical, present person looking forward and
going right on a book a weekend. And yeah, that
stuff is just yeah, it's never like it's that's genetic. Well,
it's from both and yeah, so we are very different

(41:05):
in that space.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
And you know.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
You can't you can't counteract that stuff because I totally
understand how much that means to Emma, like that that
that is not me, That is not as meaningful.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
To me as it is to Emma.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
Yes, but I totally understand how that is really important
to her.

Speaker 5 (41:29):
Whereas there's parts of what we do really.

Speaker 4 (41:32):
Well that they fill my cup. And I've got to
be more aware of the things that fill Emma's cup
in terms of like it's you know, and it's it's
it's a bad effort, it's.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
It's just quality times. It's like actual quality this.

Speaker 4 (41:50):
Really you know, I workend away here or there or
a movie that, but it's just it's just those things.
It's like done, stop being stubborn and it's not about you.

Speaker 5 (42:08):
Yeah, and it is.

Speaker 4 (42:09):
It's a selfish it's like to be more selfless in
that whole just gam book color movie tickets, and you
don't realize the benefit that will have in just prioritizing
three hours of.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
Just yeah, while you do it, we don't need to
incentivize him.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I need to do more.

Speaker 5 (42:31):
Size totally.

Speaker 4 (42:34):
Understand that that there needs to be that balance of
effort both ways.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
And I recognize that I don't want to make you
do things you don't want to do. So you know,
when I say movies and all of that, it's like
once upon a time. I know, we used to do.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
A lot of stuff.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
I used to do a lot of things that I
didn't want to do because that's what you're doing that.
But I need to recognize that the reason why we
got together is because those moments it's like no field.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
So yeah, that's what built the foundation the whole.

Speaker 4 (43:14):
You know, I already had one divorce, so I don't
want to do that again. And you do roll into
that whole, Well, I don't want to do it anymore
because but it's you know, you have to rekindle the
effort to go, well, why am I doing this? Because
this person's really important to me and I love her,
and like this is while we're in this together, is

(43:35):
sometimes you have to give up things or do things
you don't want to do because you love that person
and that means the world.

Speaker 5 (43:43):
To them to be able to do that.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
But is it that you don't want to do it?
And this is the thing is because are we saying
that you don't want to spend time or that you
don't enjoy the active because this is playing in a
little bit into what Emma was worried about about you
doing things you don't want to do.

Speaker 5 (43:59):
No, it's not It's not like the thing is once
I get there, I actually do enjoy it.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
Yeah, it's just that's the I'll get rid of everything
else and then scrap those two five What are things
that you think you've got to do and.

Speaker 5 (44:14):
Just prioritize this. Yeah, it's just that. It's because whenever
I do I go, why do I do that more often?
Like I think we never have a workend away where
we go.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
Oh that was terrible.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
That was that was a drag, Like you made that
feel like a drag because getting you to book it
was a drag and it was an absolute drag. Once
we get there, it's like, why don't we do this
more often? And I'm the same, why don't we do
this more often? But I get so caught up in
all the other things that I go like, i'd have.

Speaker 5 (44:48):
To go away this weekend.

Speaker 4 (44:49):
I'd like, let's go to the movies, but just yeah,
it's not that I want to go to the movies,
it's I want to spend that time together. But I
make everything else, or not everything, but other things a
priority and go It's okay, it's it's fine. Like it
might mean it's fine that I'll go and spend two

(45:10):
hours at work or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
I feel like, do you get you know, because I
mean there's a period of time that we do work.

Speaker 5 (45:19):
Well.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
Sam works weekends or one of the days on the weekend,
and then I've been helping out and so like we
we've had mainly only Sundays off for a very long
period of time. So don't get me wrong, I understand
that this whole idea of doing things together and going
away is limited, but it is about prioritizing on.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Those times, you know, the other half of the y
when that is available. But do you feel that the.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Does it just become like, oh, it's I just cannot
be bothered because it's I'm just I just don't want
to do it anything.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
I'm too exhausted.

Speaker 5 (45:57):
No, it's not exhausting, not real. Yeah, it's just like,
hang on.

Speaker 4 (46:05):
Get out of my head and get into it our
head and say, if I do this small little thing,
it'll help us significantly. Yeah. So even though I want
to go and play golf or whatever it is, and
golf's not the biggest issue in our relationship, but just

(46:26):
give that up and spend the two hours or the
two days whatever it is. And it shouldn't matter of time,
and it's just you know, it'll be repaid in spades.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
I know that.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Like I think that's that zooming out, isn't it. Where Yeah,
what I choose to do in these moments will make
a big difference to our next six months, our next
five years. You know, it's all power. Yeah, get a.

Speaker 5 (46:54):
Phone call, do you want to come and over be
down the pub?

Speaker 4 (46:56):
I'd love to, But Emyon and I are doing this
and let's catch up next week.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Like yeah, so what gets And I think this is
the part because I'm going to guess this isn't the
first time that a discussion along these lines has been had.
Will Usually normally people come to therapy after we've talked
about it at least once, two, three, four or five times,
and for some reason it's not working. What goes wrong? Sam?

Speaker 5 (47:20):
Where?

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (47:21):
So, okay, I need to set more time aside from
my relationship. It's something I want to do. I know
it's important because I can see that you want to
do it and you understand the importance of it. But
then what goes wrong.

Speaker 5 (47:33):
I'd rather know what goes wrong. I think I'll just
I think I just know I'll get away with it.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah. So you think that she'll never leave? You think
she won't leave?

Speaker 4 (47:45):
Oh no, No, I certainly don't think that. But I
think I don't make out it's big enough.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Yeah, so you minimize it in your mind?

Speaker 5 (47:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I thought, you know what, surely me.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
Doing this and not prioritizing Emma in this situation, she
won't lead me.

Speaker 5 (48:09):
But when you do that.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
A hundred times, Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 (48:15):
Like maybe maybe if I did it once, it'd be like, no,
she won't.

Speaker 4 (48:19):
But yeah, when you continue to do that and then
stick with that mentality, obviously the key notes and at
some point it'll break.

Speaker 5 (48:30):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
That's my is she too, is I do.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Like you said before, we're both divorced. Were both you know,
we're married for long periods of time and had kids
and then divorced.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
And I don't want to do that again, Like I
don't want to split up.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Kids and households, and you know it's traumatic for everybody. Yeah,
but in the same breath, so you know, I probably
I think too.

Speaker 4 (49:03):
We're both in relationships where if we kept doing what
we're done.

Speaker 5 (49:07):
They would have stayed together a lot. Both parties would
have just dealt with it.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 5 (49:16):
We didn't.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
You know, we were both instigators and getting out of
those relationships because.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
We want a different things.

Speaker 5 (49:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (49:24):
So then you you know, you get into this situation
where you make someone and go, well, this person ain't
just going to sit around and take my stuff vice versa.

Speaker 5 (49:37):
Let's not get to that.

Speaker 4 (49:38):
Point because we got out of one for that reason,
Let's not do it again.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
And that that is the other point too, is that
you know, and we're also coming to the point where
with no kids around or were kids not as invested
in being at home and needed by us.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
That it's not a catalyst to stay anymore either.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
It's not a reason to say, oh well, I'm not
going to block this because I can't.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
I don't want so.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
It needs to be worthwhile and it needs to be
fought for, Yes, but it needs to be the relationship
needs to be like wanted to be fought for and
wanted to be you know, on the same somewhat the
same page.

Speaker 4 (50:24):
Both parties are getting out of it what they Yeah,
you are putting in and yeah, And I think that's
the situation, getting like I'm getting a lot out of
this relationship. I'm probably not putting in nothing that's reality.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
And I guess yes, not letting yourself get too comfortable
in that and getting too comfortable and thinking that this
won't matter, This won't matter. It's mattering, and it has
been mattering, and now it's chipping away at this relationship
we've built. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:54):
Absolutely, Yeah, I'm doing things outside of the relationship.

Speaker 5 (50:59):
That I really want to do. But what am I
doing inside the relationship to enable that, I'm not investing
in that.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
When we come back, we're going to talk about family
systems and how Sam's upbringing his influence to who he
is in his relationship with Emma. Don't go anywhere, Emma.
I'm interested in what you quietly I heard you say before.

(51:33):
It's the way you were raised. What did you mean
by that?

Speaker 5 (51:40):
Very honest what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
Sam has grown up in an environment where he has
been enabled to do whatever he wants, somewhat like you.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
You were very lucky.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
It was he was grew up very lucky because his
parents were very like, you can do everything, and you're wonderful,
and you're graded everything, and that's that's really great.

Speaker 5 (52:08):
That's that's a bit.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 5 (52:11):
I think my parents. I couldn't ask a better parents.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
They're wonderful people.

Speaker 5 (52:16):
I'm supportive. I think they were pretty hard.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
But I think they said to me their relationship. They
never said no no, they never said no, have whatever
we needed. But it's not like they we didn't have
flush cars and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
If that's not where I'm coming from, I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
They that was at the detriment of them as a relationship.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
So probably a bit of backstories that Mum came down
here when I first had kids and then opened up
to me that she wasn't happy and pretty much went
shopping down here to find a house, and he's a
great mum and great grandmother. So she she said, I'm

(53:01):
just going to move down here and look after the kids,
because that's what she.

Speaker 5 (53:06):
Wanted to do because you wasn't happy in her relationship.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
And then Dad ended up retiring eventually after a couple
of years and moved down with her.

Speaker 5 (53:17):
She would have never left Dad like no matter and he.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
Never physically treated her poorly or but he just he
wasn't an invested person in a relationship. And I've got
some of those attributes, and what we've talked about is.

Speaker 5 (53:30):
Part of that.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
I think Emma's very close to my mom and dad,
and mum and dad love Emma, but she doesn't want
to end up the same way.

Speaker 5 (53:42):
Yeah, and I'm the same. I'm the same.

Speaker 4 (53:44):
I don't want to know whether I just I love my
mom and dad, and you know, they grew up in
an area where you did stick together and you stuff
sick through whatever happened, and you.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Stick together no matter what the relationship is, which I
don't you know, I.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Don't want to do because you don't want to end
up being you know, event eighties. But I mean that's
so far down the track.

Speaker 4 (54:09):
I think my mum's was said to me like, oh, actually,
there's times and I wish I'd left your dad just
to escape. He's you know, selfishness, and he's pursued of
what he wanted to do and mum not being able
to do what she wanted to do.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yeah, And so I think that their relationship is supportive
of each other.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
But at the.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Same time, Sam's dad has always done exactly what he wanted.
You know, he plays golf, he hangs with his mates,
he never books holidays.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Never.

Speaker 5 (54:49):
Moms traveled extensively and never gone with Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
And she's amazing because she's just said, right, well, I'm
going to go travel the world and do it on
my own, which.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Is almost where you were at Emma. Like in the beginning,
you're sort of like, well, is this something you want
to do with me? Or should I just go do
this myself? If I'm summarrazing.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
And I've thought long and hard about that because I
look at Sam's mum and think she's a wonderful woman.
But I see her too and see how much she
just craves that you know, partner to go, Oh, I
want to do these things with a partner, and when

(55:28):
Sam and I have gone away together, you know.

Speaker 3 (55:30):
She'll be like, oh, you know, it's so great that
you two get to do.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Those things because they don't, you know, and so not
to be that like, oh, I don't want to turn
out like parents, but it is.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
There is quite a strong parallel there, right, It is a.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
Very strong There's a very strong parallel.

Speaker 4 (55:49):
In all honesty, Emma's a lot of Emma's character traits
and my mom and I love that about it. And
that's why my mum and Emma get on so well. Like,
you know, you're not a mom's life. She's like, I
want to see my son with someone who his life then,

(56:09):
and there's a lot of that. But part of Emma's
strength is like, yeah, we're not going to have the
relationship you and Dad have either, because I.

Speaker 5 (56:18):
Know that you're not.

Speaker 4 (56:20):
You haven't moved fulfilled many of the things that she
wanted to be fulfilled with in terms of that relationship.

Speaker 5 (56:28):
That just hasn't happened. And you know that's.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
That's Mum's spotting life and Dad and there's you know,
she'll stick by him through thick and thin, which she's doing.
But she probably will have some regrets around I wish
things were different, and when Emma she doesn't want to do.

Speaker 5 (56:46):
That, and I totally get that. I don't know that.

Speaker 4 (56:49):
I don't want to regret look back and go, well,
what if like that's why we split from our first.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
And yeah, I think you know, one of the things
is the fact that it's amazing that your mum has
traveled and she always wanted to do that, so she
did that, and that's something that just one thing I'd
like to be able to do a little bit more,
because you know, we've done a really good job of
raising kids and a household and everything. So there's the

(57:17):
next sort of point of those things that I'd like
to sort of work towards.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
But yeah, I don't want to do it like she's
had to do it on her own.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
And I guess it's kind of like saying, if that's
I want to know, is that something you.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
Do really want to do?

Speaker 5 (57:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (57:35):
Absolutely, So I guess we've got Sam saying yes. Right,
so we've got Emma saying is this what you want?
Sam is saying yes? And maybe right now it's hard
to not believe, but you know, actions speak louder than words.
So let's say historically Sam's actions have not really been
showing that he really wants to invest and put time

(57:57):
in this relationship and prioritize it. But it sounds like
what you're saying, Sam, is that moving forward, like I'm
aware of where I've kind of dropped the ball. Yeah,
I am planning on doing things differently, so and I
might sort of start leading us towards some homework stuff,
so some things to start to have a think about

(58:19):
and do before our next appointment.

Speaker 5 (58:21):
But when I.

Speaker 4 (58:24):
Say absolutely, I absolutely do, but then in the back
of my brain says, but I.

Speaker 5 (58:29):
Don't know how.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Ahah.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Yeah great, And I think that's really important because this
is where we need actual tangible and specific I guess
like action points of like Okay, this is what I
want to do, but how do I do it? And
so I think that that's actually quite nicely leading into
what I was thinking to set as a little homework
task for both of you. I'll split it into two.

(58:53):
So let's say for Emma, there's something there around you know,
we've shut down from expressing your needs, right, So there
was a time where you were expressing them and then
you've kind of withdrawn a bit and just sort of gone, okay,
well whatever. It's just easier to not have needs then
to have them and then be let down. So we're

(59:14):
needing to try to reverse that a little bit, which
is hard when it's the beginning and you haven't seen
the action yet, but starting to observe where are their
needs that I start shutting down? Are there things that
I would like to ask for or that I would
like to put out there that I need from Sam
that I don't you know? So I think having a

(59:36):
sort of reflective piece and whether you just like journal
it down or just kind of have some dot points,
but yeah, I would be probably trying to identify like
what do I need more from him? And really specific
tangible stuff. It could be like not coming home past
this time. It's not about setting curfews, but it's around
ensuring we have at least one night together or having

(59:59):
a date night or a date day once a month,
or you know, it just been like really specific and
actionable things, not just kind of like I want to
go out more. I want to yeah, make.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
Him yeah yeah, no, I understand that, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Yeah, and and not and you might have to push
through feeling like you're These aren't orders that he has
to do. These are just your needs and then you'll
be presenting them to him. And of course Sam can go, look,
that's not really going to work, or I don't like that,
or can we come up with the It's not you
just dictating what you what you want, but I do
want you to put the needs out there without filtering

(01:00:33):
them through. Is this reasonable? Is this fair? Is this okay?
Myself is just these are these are what I'd like
if it was a perfect well, this is what I
want from my partner, yeap. And and being able to
share that with Sam with obviously the understanding that he
is able to kind of contribute and create a collaborative

(01:00:55):
conversation about it. It's not just oh yes sir, yep, yep.

Speaker 5 (01:00:58):
But go do that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
It's not that yeah, I'll work on that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Yeah. So that's on your side, and I think for
Sam because that will help give him some clarity as
well around like what what does Emma actually need from me?
That's going to matter? Yeah, And Sam, on your end
of things, I think it's really looking at what am
I prepared to change about the way I interact with

(01:01:23):
my work? What am I prepared to cut down what
am I prepared to have a firm about, like start
putting real specific, tangible things on your end, and I
would be writing a list of those things of what
am I no longer going to be doing or what
am I going to do from now on? Differently, and
what you said before about carving out that time what yeah,

(01:01:44):
a in a standard week, what time am I going
to make my untouchable time? Like this is just me
and Emma. Yeah, so I think it's starting to look
at what am I prepared to do differently? Yeah, and
then maybe I might even add you another piece, Sam,
you get a little expert of my work. But my why,
because I think that's important is the why, Like, because
that's the bit that gets lost in the small instances

(01:02:07):
of like, oh, it's fine, I'll just go out for
a beer or whatever, and I mean, yeah, that's fine,
but if it's the one time you were meant to
spend with Sam, then that's not really fine. Yeah, So
I think the why is important. So I'll get you
to just kind of do a little like dot points
of why do I need to be prioritizing this and

(01:02:27):
it is going to the worst case you because it
is you know, there may not be a partner around
in my retirement years if I don't do this, or
because Emma feels lonely.

Speaker 5 (01:02:39):
I love that. Like that lines up with like sort
of sitting here reflecting on what we've talked.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
About, yes, and then action points of like right, what
do we implement?

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
That's why I brought up that whole. I say, absolutely,
but this is what I'm thinking.

Speaker 5 (01:02:54):
In the back of my mind. Yes, like I do
want to do it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
Yeah, Yeah, there's a part of my brain going, yeah,
but you're not going to have the time or money
or any you know what I mean do that. So
it's getting rid of those thoughts and going right, if
you say you're going.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
To do it, you need to let's get the calendar out, let's.

Speaker 4 (01:03:14):
Look at it, getting rid of other problems, get rid
of those problems to make sure that's happening.

Speaker 5 (01:03:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
So yeah, and it could be something that you know,
you start on your own, and then it could be
something that you even bring something that you bring Emma
into and be like, hey, I'm trying to where do
you think I can cut back or where do you.

Speaker 5 (01:03:33):
Think this could Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Yeah, yeah, if you find yourself getting stuck.

Speaker 4 (01:03:38):
And when you said about that whole you know, talk
about what Emma needs, Like we all have needs, but
like you said, like write them down, like put them specifically,
and then we'll work out what what is achievable and
what's not.

Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
And same for me, like you know, I want to
do these things.

Speaker 4 (01:03:59):
I need action to go. Right, How is that going
to happen? What do I have to get rid of
to make that happen? Yeah, this is what I wanted
to do. I can see how it's sort of going
to start.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
To marry out, which was yeah, I think otherwise it
all kind of just floats around in this vague abyss.

Speaker 5 (01:04:16):
Of like yeah, which is where we're going at.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
Like we've had conversations, we've done lists, and we've tried
to do things, and it's like yeah, but we've never
actually action things like yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
We're also very good at China address things short term.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Yeah, it's trying.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
To Yeah, we've never put us in the stand and
we've just going, yeah, well we'll fix this little problem.

Speaker 5 (01:04:40):
One jumps up, but it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Makes it easy to fix a little thing. We'll fix
it in the moment and not it's what we have
had to do togain.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
And now it's really yeah, that's it, isn't it not
doing the short term fixes. But actually this might be
a big pain in my ass right now, like you know,
having to push back on things with work or you know,
things that might cause me stress right now. But actually,
once it all gets set into a routine and people
stop expecting this much of me, you know, like, so
there might be a little bit of things get worse

(01:05:12):
before they get better, not between the two of you rather,
but maybe more on your and Sam in terms of
the boundaries around work stuff and maybe and but that's
even something that you know, see how you go in
in your planning and when we when I see you
next time, we can kind of review and sort of what, yeah,
did some things get in the way. Did you find

(01:05:33):
that it was difficult to cut back anywhere? Or what
with the barriers, like why why didn't you do it?
Why did you do it? Like that will be it's
a way to also kind of keep people accountable this process,
isn't it You have to pull back? Yeah, okay, so
we're feeling okay to leave it there for today?

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
Good yeah, yell at each other no, no.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
And you look, you were, you were welcome to. You
were welcome to as long as it's not you know,
we're not really.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
We're not really yelling at each other people are we kids?
Just not really yelling. We're more just like you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Go over there and process, and I'll go over here
and process.

Speaker 5 (01:06:15):
We are always better talking with someone like you know
what I mean. It's less confronting when.

Speaker 4 (01:06:24):
There's a third person or where we're talking about similar things.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
I decided to assign Sam the homework of getting really
specific and tangible around what he is going to be
able to do to change the fact that he doesn't
have much time for the relationship currently as it's been standing.
So I think he's been aware of the fact that

(01:07:00):
he's not been prioritizing Emma and the relationship, but there's
been something between that and the action point where there's
something that's getting in the way. So I'm hoping if
we get him to really reflect on, Okay, what are
the changes I'm willing and able to do, then there
will be a point to refer back to for accountability

(01:07:22):
if for some reason he doesn't or isn't able to
action on those points. And for Emma, I asked her
to list her needs, I think number one to help
her actually get clear on what is it that isn't
being meant for me, and to help her get a
bit more comfortable with the idea of actually having needs

(01:07:44):
and being able to express them. And that's not forcing
anybody to meet them, but it is saying that for
me to feel happy and fulfilled in a relationship, I
need this stuff to be at least attempted to be met,
or if it can't be, it needs to be at
least discussed. I often see couples who've been together for
a while find themselves losing their routines and rituals and

(01:08:10):
habits that they established in the beginning when things were
going really well. And I think this is something that
is showcased with Sam and Emma's relationship here, where the
things that they were doing in the beginning, like the
camping and the hikes and the movies and weekends away
were the things that actually created the foundation for the

(01:08:31):
relationship that they have. And when life got in the
way and all of those activities and the quality time
and connective time was taken away, it makes sense that
the relationship starts to become disconnected and more distant. So
the way to I guess battle this would be to
ensure that we keep these particular rituals or routines in place,

(01:08:54):
and they can change. We can have you know, over time,
our interests can change, or our financial positions can change,
so we don't have to do the exact same things,
but the rituals and routines need to remain there even
if the actual activity is different that we do together.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
I think the way I'm feeling about that session is
that it was nice to get my what I've been
sort of I guess stewing on a little bit out.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
I think sometimes when you're in the moment in your.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
Relationship, you've got all these thoughts and you go to
say them, or you go to sit down with your
partner and you go, okay, like this is how I'm feeling.
But it just for me, I haven't been able to
get that out. To sit there and voice it properly
and to be listened to felt really cathartic, I guess,
or just you know, like a bit of a weight

(01:09:55):
off my shoulders.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
I'm looking forward to the homework.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
I think that it's nice to have tools in place,
being able to do this I feel like will enable
me to kind of feel like there's a little bit
of a solid ground to what we're doing, and it'll
be able to quantify this kind of like, Okay, we're
working towards something.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
We're actually trying to nut this out, and we're trying to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
Get ourselves in a better position than well, and that's
the whole reason we went into this.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
I hope that by the.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
Next session we've locked in maybe some quality time together.
That doesn't feel for Sam that it's forced, that it's
actually okay, I see the value in us carving out
that time to spend together and putting aside those things
that you know maybe he would prioritize previously and say, no,

(01:10:46):
actually this, this is a priority.

Speaker 4 (01:10:56):
I'm feeling about that session really beneficial for both of us.
And then even just through the whole process and I
just being able to draw out things of each other
of where we want to end up, what we've got
to fix, and yeah, I just I felt comfortable and

(01:11:19):
then you just engage with the questions and it was
like having a conversation with someone in New So the
home we've been said, I'm actually like as a school
teacher or school teacher. I was like, that's the perfect homework,
as in, when you have a conversation or set a.

Speaker 5 (01:11:41):
Task, you're like, I know what I want to get
out of this. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):
So I felt like when Sarah asked us to do
the things both of us need to do, I was like,
I felt like, that's what we need to do. Any
forum where I talk more than I usually do, particularly
about us, I think Ama would be thinking this is
going the right direction, and I think really positive about

(01:12:10):
us unpacking what's what we've unpacked with Sarah.

Speaker 5 (01:12:17):
I think we'll challenge each other on not just.

Speaker 4 (01:12:19):
Letting it be a moment or an evening and let's
go back to it next week. I think we'll both
challenge each other on our homework. Anyhow, I feel like
we built a connection with Sarah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
My hopes for Sam and Emma is that they find
a routine and system that works for them, where it
feels balanced, where they're having their own individual needs met
as well as their couple needs, and if little bumps
do come along the way, that they now have a
system in place that helps them to be able to
talk about it, problem solve together and figure out what
needs to change or be tweaked. It sounds like they

(01:13:01):
have the same vision for a really nice future together,
and it would be a shame that these really solvable
issues would get in the way of that. If they
keep working at the communication piece and get a good
structure in place, I don't see why they won't have
a really lovely retirement on the beach side. The second
part of Sam and Emma's session comes out in a
few days, but if you don't want to wait, Mamma

(01:13:23):
Mia subscribers have early access to the episode in full
right now, follow the link in the show notes to listen.
This Is Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown
and Eliza Solman Nilsen. The executive producer is Naima Brown.
Our studio engineer is Lou Hill. Sound design and music

(01:13:45):
by Tom Lyon. Editing and sound designed by Jacob Brown.
Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine. Our
casting producer was Lisa Storer. If this conversation has brought
up any hard feelings, or if you just feel like
you need a bit of help, there are links in
our show notes to resources available to you right now,

(01:14:05):
as well as how to connect with my I practice
motivated minds, if you'd like to apply to be on
the next season of This Is Why We Fight. There's
a link to the application in our show notes too.
I'm Sarah Bays. Thanks for listening.