Ethan & Mel [Part 1 of 2]: Crossed Boundaries, A Break-Up & A Situationship

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters this podcast was recorded on. This podcast has been
produced with the strongest regard for the wellbeing of our participants,
all of whom have chosen to share their biggest relationship
struggles in the hopes of helping other people. All participants
have been provided with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Am I repeating past behaviors of staying too long in
a relationship where and I know my boundary is broken,
so trying to find that balance and not wanting to
do that though it is two different relationships and situations.
The previous one I had no boundaries at all. I
just kept forgiving and forgiving. This one, I grewsome balls.

(00:57):
I put in some boundaries, he broke them. I walked away,
But now he's asking for a second chance.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Welcome to This is why we fight real people, real problems,
real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical
psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples,
and families. This series has been designed to allow you,
our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of

(01:27):
other people who are grappling with challenges in their relationships,
because I firmly believe that we can learn so much
from each other. Today you're meeting Ethan and Mel. Ethan,
a fifty year old senior manager, and Mel, a forty
one year old financial analyst, are a Melbourne based on again,
off again couple who are trying to repair their relationship

(01:49):
after a breakup, a process.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
That has brought up a lot for both of them.
Let's jump right in.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Here's session one with Ethan and Mel.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
Mel and Ethan, it's lovely to see you both.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Nice to see you, Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
And I think Mel, it was you who initiated this
process or who wanted to.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, look I did.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
I think we were just going a little through a
little bit of a turbulent time. And I, you know,
as I sort of believe in the universe, sometimes this
real or a post popped up in Instagram as are
scrolling and it just yeah, spoke to me, and I thought, okay,
well I'll just reach out and see if there might
be something in this.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
And yeah, and is it something that because you said
was a turbulent time, is it something that's ongoing or
what's shifted, if anything, between now and then.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
Look at that time we had, I think we'd broken up, and.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I might have been potentially sort of just looking for further.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Answers within myself to sort of process it. Since then
and now has been probably two three months, I'd say
things have changed a little bit in that it seems
like we were working it not. It seems like we
are working together to see if we can give it
more time and see if we can repair the relationship.

(03:15):
I guess I would say overall it's been really good.
And Ethan's been putting a lot of effort into a
lot of the differences or the issues I suppose that.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
We had or we didn't see. I do I in
and I'm really appreciative of that.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
And for me, it's just to understand and see if
this can settle, to see if it is something that
is sustainable.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, so it has changed for the better.

Speaker 5 (03:42):
I guess.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
And the two of you back together or.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Am I asking something maybe.

Speaker 6 (03:50):
That hasn't spending any less time than before or not
officially together. That's something that Meli is holding her cards
tight and not acknowledging that because you know she's she
feels she needs to feel differently, see differences.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Okay, So yeah, the two of you are working on things,
seeing where it goes, and at some point I assume
there's a discussion or a decision around we get back
together or we go our separate ways. Is that a
summary of where you guys are at at the moment.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, for her somewhere, Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 5 (04:30):
For me, I'm a win.

Speaker 6 (04:31):
I've always I always have been a win. So you know,
I'm just you know, I'm aware that there you know
behavioral patterns and you know your frameworks, et cetera from
a young age that have led to certain behaviors that

(04:56):
are very contradictory to her homeostasis.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Look, I mean, I think our partners are usually the
ones that push us most to grow. You know, where
we can stagnate or feel okay with certain things, it
is often our partner that will push us a little bit.

Speaker 4 (05:12):
Which it sounds like it's already.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Along the path of what you see are your areas
to work on. But you know, Mel's given you that
little kickup a bum to like, okay, I really got
a pick?

Speaker 6 (05:23):
Oh yeah, both of us essentially want it to work.
We want, we do care for each other deeply. I
don't want to speak from the one. I'm hoping that's
the case.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
Well we will here from melship, So yeah, that's that's what. Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
So we've got Ethan saying he's always been all in,
and Mel I would love to hear from you.

Speaker 4 (05:46):
Does it feel like he's always been all in?

Speaker 3 (05:48):
That's a really good question. I'd have to say ninety
percent of the time. He's always made it very clear
to me, even from the first three months six months
dating in the relationship, he has been And you know,
that's one of the real big positives in this relationship
that's always kept us together or kept me here because
you know, for my faults or insecurity is it's always

(06:09):
been I'm one foot in, one foot out, and I'm
just nervous and scared. It's a fear based thing that
I if I see a little a red flag or
something that's not quite right. I've had a history since
my divorce or my marriage, which was quite a lengthy
period of time, so since then, I was just don't
want to make that mistake again. But since the beginning,

(06:31):
Ethan has always been very solid and you know, I'm
here and I want this to work with you, and
I want to work with you and stuff. So the
change and everything that he spoke about is, yeah, is amazing.
And I always say, now I wish I wish this
change had happened maybe five months ago, when I was
actively asking for it. When I was at you know,
I felt I was quite alone in the process of

(06:53):
you know, I'm bringing these issues to you and this
is how I feel and this topic is really upsetting me.
But I just felt quite dismissed or not what's the word,
like just not heard and I was just talking to myself.
And so we got to a point where we did
try to seek some vice from a therapist, his therapist
so that he could so I could feel that he

(07:14):
could maybe understand me a little bit more. Maybe I
wasn't communicating in a way that was clear enough for
him to hear how I was feeling. So now there's
this feeling. I don't know if bittersweet's the right word,
but I almost feel like I wish, like a relationship
if this last three four months was a representation of

(07:37):
our future moving forward.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
I know it's not perfect.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
We still eric each other sometimes and little things. But
that's all fine. But the bigger key issues that it
seems to have really resolved now, I wish it only
had happened then because now I'm left with this. Now
it's not about Ethan so much anymore because he's still
in and he's still solid, But now it's me feeling
well if I stay, do I feel like a pushover?

(08:00):
How do I forgive or get.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
Through the.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
Mistrust? I know that might be a big word in
the situation. I mean, the issues that we had were
never really infidelity or anything like that. It might have
been other emotional connections and disrespect that I felt or something,
But yeah, how do I move forward with that? When
I was so clear with my boundaries?

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Not so clear?

Speaker 3 (08:27):
I said it like probably half a dozen times, and
I kept sort of navigating and expanding the boundaries to
try and fit him into it. But ultimately I said,
these are where this is where it is at, and
he stepped beyond that. I almost feel like I let
myself down if I don't uphold that, And for me,
I don't see how, and this is something I probably

(08:49):
have to work on. How do I uphold that and
still remain in this relationship? If that's what you know,
I want without losing myself a little if that, Yeah
makes sense?

Speaker 7 (09:01):
Yeah, you know, I think this is such a common
thing where and boundaries, I guess can become extra rigid
or firm to the point where sometimes they're actually not
protecting us, or they're.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
Not useful or you know.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
And I think that can be a really common thing
where we put in boundaries and we have to be
so firm with them because they keep getting bulldozed or
they keep getting you know, knocked over, and then we
kind of get to the point where the boundaries become
inflexible completely.

Speaker 4 (09:34):
And so the.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Idea of now changing your boundary is very difficult to
grapple with.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Yeah. What, So there's a story that goes along with that.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Male for you, you were saying, if I forgive Ethan
or if I can commit I guess back to this relationship,
then that means I'm I'm what does that mean about yourself?

Speaker 4 (09:58):
What's the story you're telling yourself?

Speaker 3 (09:59):
If you do that that I potentially am repeating old
habits with that I had with my ex husband and
I prolonged a relationship that was not quite right and
gave multiple chances and so forth, I would like to
believe now that you know, I've learned from that, and
obviously we're still all growing and evolving, but ultimately I've

(10:21):
I feel like I'm much stronger and i embody much
more sort of those black and white or boundaries, you know.
But before that, I wouldn't have any of that. So
now it's almost like, if I don't stand for that,
what am I going to stand for? It's just going
to be another slippery slope potentially. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, so there's a bit of the past, fear of
the past repeating itself.

Speaker 4 (10:47):
Fear.

Speaker 5 (10:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
Yeah, you know, I've.

Speaker 6 (10:51):
Dealt with, you know, trust issues in this relationship, and
I think I've dealt with him well. And I don't
blame her. I mean, you know, I know about her
last relationship. Sometimes, you know, you can get a bit
with dealing with someone else's history, not.

Speaker 4 (11:11):
Males, but likely somebody else.

Speaker 6 (11:13):
Yeah, because we have an example of you know, someone
that basically, you know a lot of the time she
fell on deaf years for seventeen years, but here she.

Speaker 5 (11:25):
Didn't fall on deaf years.

Speaker 6 (11:26):
Yes, I did cross a boundary for her, but there's
eighty ninety percent of the rest of which is me
changing all through the relationship and listening to her and responding.
And you know, she's got kids as well, and like,
you know, if there was if there was anything that
concerned her about my behavior or what I've said, which
I'd go straight to, Okay, you know, what am I

(11:49):
doing wrong?

Speaker 5 (11:50):
Et cetera.

Speaker 6 (11:51):
You know, and I think you know, I think you know,
I was told by him and he knows both of us.
You know, it's me quite well that you know. You know,
he commended me for how I am with the kids.
And that was a change as well, because you know,
I come from a family that you know, baby boomer
narcissistic parents, which I mean, I know what love is,

(12:12):
and they always showed me love in their way, you know,
but very compensating. And you know, there was a lot
of negative reinforcement and a lot of jokes and and
you know a lot of the time I've emulated that,
you know, and I'm like, I don't want to, you know,
fall back on the word trauma, et cetera, but behavioral

(12:35):
patterns and I do emulate my mum in a lot
of ways.

Speaker 5 (12:38):
I do have a.

Speaker 6 (12:39):
Similar anxiety, like you know, gad kind of thing I
emulate my dad in some ways, who is just you know,
completely unaware. You know, he's like it's all about human
But he's an amazing man for the trauma that he had,
He's an amazing dad.

Speaker 5 (12:55):
You know.

Speaker 6 (12:56):
So I can't say that I don't know what love
is and I don't feel love and I haven't felt love,
but a lot of that love is mixed with guilt,
and you know it's what we call dirty feelings.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, like dysfunctional, right it it might have been the
type of love that you were used to, but it
might not have been shown so functionally.

Speaker 6 (13:19):
Yeah, So you know there was there was you know, gestures,
but then you're not treated very nicely or you're not
you know with the you know a lot of negative reinforcements.
So coming into this relationship with Mel, you know, I'd
had a few long term relationships and none of them
really made me change.

Speaker 5 (13:40):
None of them.

Speaker 6 (13:41):
I think that it was a it was you know,
it was a fusion of my therapy and then meeting
the right person that I wanted to change for, you know.
And so you know, I think that it's a lot.
I mean, it's a lot from from from me personally
to not only enact that change, but to be consistent

(14:04):
and make that change last. You know, it's it's a
constant thing that you have to be aware of because
you can slip up a lot.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
It's easy to go back to our default.

Speaker 6 (14:16):
It really is, you know, and I think that you know.
What I've found now in the last three months particularly,
is it's almost like I've changed gear. It's not a
different behavior.

Speaker 5 (14:27):
I'm not.

Speaker 6 (14:27):
I haven't changed like I haven't done a one eighty
or anything. But what I am doing is it's it's
literally changing gear on the change factor, on being more mindful,
on being more present, on you know, all those things
that probably laps I.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Can femail noding over there is that you saying I noticed, I've.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Noticed this, or I notice it so much to the
point where I just think not to take away from
anything that he said or what he's doing, But it's like,
but why now, why could you not could When I
was felt like I was screaming internally to ask you
for these changes, I was asking you nicely.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
And I guess we come.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
From different communication backgrounds, Like the way I grew up
in my household is very quietly spoken. We may just
not even say anything too overtly, but yet the other.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Person will understand, so it's subtle, subtle.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
So when I would make suggestions with Ethan, it'd always
be quite subtle, and I wouldn't he wouldn't understand me
to the point where I'd probably said it maybe five
times or ten times, and then I was frustrated and
I'd scream, And that was for me, the only time
that I would feel maybe that he'd heard me.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
But so it felt like unless you were pushed to
that point, yeah, Ethan wasn't hearing what you wanted or
what you needed.

Speaker 6 (15:46):
I come I come from a family that's like zero
to one hundred immediately, you know. And I think that
since being with Mel, I've been so much more aware
of that when I visit home. My sister has been
aware for a lot longer, and it makes someone put

(16:07):
to be brief with. But you know, when I walk
through that door, I am triggered like crazy, and I
get that same behavior because I've had the conversation with
with especially my mum, Oh my god, like hundreds of times. Yeah,
as has my sister, and it's hard to it's almost

(16:29):
like you're you're jacked again, like you go, because I
try to visit them once or twice a week, you're
jacked again and then it almost pulls you back into
that behavioral pattern. So it's really hard unless unless you
completely disassociate yourself from that atmosphere. It's it's quite hard
to you know, soldier on with change and you know,

(16:52):
when you constantly pulled back into that emotional reactivity.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
When we come back, we're going to dive into how
Ethan's family of origin has impacted how he shows up
in his relationship with mel and why male is so
hesitant to move forward without certain assurances back in a tick.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
Well, it's the.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Family system, right, and your family of origin is where
you first found a role to play. And it's very hard,
no matter how old we get to not slip into
that role when we go back to visit family or
you know, and we do find ourselves regressing or acting
the way we used to or ways that we actually
don't enjoy being and we don't emulate in our relationship.

Speaker 6 (17:39):
I just feeling shit, yeah, you know, and again and
I think that what I have noticed the last three
months is I'm.

Speaker 5 (17:48):
Not doing that anymore when I go home.

Speaker 6 (17:51):
You know, I've realized that, you know, there are certain
behaviors like my driving.

Speaker 5 (17:56):
For instance, which is a big problem. And you know,
I can get road grades.

Speaker 6 (18:01):
And I'm not getting Avo Kate to punch anyone, but
like you know, there's the horn, and there's and and
I've realized, Look, you can't just drive a certain way
when Mels in the car and ther kids are in
the car. You have to drive that way all the time. Yeah,
otherwise you're going to default to your regular behavior.

Speaker 5 (18:18):
You know.

Speaker 6 (18:19):
So I mean, look, you know, I'm a smart guy,
but at the same time, from an emotional perspective, they're
they're literally anchors that have been there, Yeah, keeping me
in a certain you know, sort of mental or behavior
or emotional pattern.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
And you've got to think about what was role modeled
and if emotional regulation wasn't role modeled to you, yeah, mechanisms.
So how do we magically know how to regulate or
what how to identify emotions if our parents didn't role
model that. And yeah, so it sounds like you're, yeah,
you've had to do a lot of catch up playing
cash up, right, which.

Speaker 5 (18:58):
Is I think is left to parents yourself essentially.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, adult therapy is really just playing catch up for
the bits of parenting that we didn't get or didn't
get in the way we needed. And I want to
go back to where you know, so you're seeing the change,
you feel still hesitant around Is it around trusting.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
That it's stable or it's.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
More actually that I fear that if I do, if
we do get back together, that it could happen again.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
And yeah, gosh, probably a little bit of both.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
To be perfectly honest, I think time will tell obviously
that if it is going to settle and be stable
and all that sort of stuff, then there's that extra
part where it's sort of for me to process how
do I give or move forward and all that sort
of stuff.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
And it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
I thought they were the sort of feelings that I
would need to unpack in sort of this segment or
this period before we made a decision if we're commit
if we're going to.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Stay together or go our separate ways.

Speaker 3 (19:55):
But more recently, Ethan had a birthday and it actually
stirred up some emotions or feelings that I wasn't expecting
at all, and they were actually around guilt. So it
was because his birthday and the ex girlfriend or friend
that he'd been friends with for over twenty years and
now has stopped sort of communicating with because of the

(20:18):
issues that we had.

Speaker 4 (20:20):
Used to get contacts around that.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
So this is a person that was it that you
had asked Ethan to no longer have contact with, or
there was issues with him having contact with this person there.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
I was fine with the friendship initially and everything, and
it wasn't until I sort of discovered some communication between
both of them that I felt was very disrespectful to
our relationship and to me a little bit, and I
said there was, So that was sort of the trigger
point that escalated all our sort of the breakdown in trust,
in me not feeling seen and heard in my communication

(20:52):
and saying, well, look, I feel a particular way about this,
and each time I would raise it, it would be
quite dismissive and go, oh, well, no, she's always like this,
Well that's how she communicates.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
It was no big deal.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
I always felt like I was the issue in this,
and I never wanted to be that jealous girlfriend or
anything like that. And it was never about jealousy, honestly.
It was for me more about just respecting someone's relationships
because their emotional intimacy was so fused together over the
last twenty twenty five years that she would be the default.

(21:23):
And I just thought, how is somebody, even if they
are so secure in their self, going into a new
relationship where they have to almost compete for quote unquote,
for lack of a better word, for that emotional intimacy
with somebody else. You know, I've been in situations where
I have been friends with past you know, boyfriends or
you know that situation, and when they had new partners

(21:47):
in just for me, I just automatically knew that's when
you sort of step aside or they automatically knew and said, look,
you know, I'm just gonna unfollow you unfriends, you don't
take it the wrong way or like totally understand. And
for me, that that showed like such a sense of
respect for the new partner and giving that relationship a
chance to know and grow.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
And when I brought.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
These sort of topics up, there was quite a lot
of fights fighting between us because he didn't understand it.
I guess his perception is different from mine, and I
think to this day, I still don't think he understand
thinks that they both did ethan.

Speaker 5 (22:25):
No that's not true.

Speaker 6 (22:26):
Look, look, you know Mel asked me to stop a
certain type of communication. I did, she didn't, And Mels
it she was that I allowed a certain communication. When
a certain communication happens for literally twenty years, you become
deaf to it. So it's literally, you know, and she
does communicate with all her friends that way. It's that

(22:49):
I love you, I miss you, that kind of stuff,
which literally is noise to me, right, Yeah, And I
think you know the reason I felt really strongly. Look,
you know, I had an upbringing that was quite chaotic
as far as living arrangements. We moved a lot countries, cities,

(23:10):
and I mean, I'm enough, and a couple of times
when we moved, I've had to disconnect from people that
have been really important to me or Pence. And so
in a way, I equate friendships that I've had to

(23:31):
almost being in the same neighborhood, if that makes sense,
like people that know me.

Speaker 5 (23:35):
Right.

Speaker 6 (23:36):
So for that this person that we're talking about, you know,
we'd gone out for we had a long term relationship
for about four and a half years and then we
hadn't spoken about six months. But after that we developed
a friendship that lasted for twenty years, and she's been
with the same guy for like twenty years, you know, so,
but she was sort of my go to when I was,

(23:58):
you know, happy or sad essentially, So when I met
When I met Mel, I was calling her and I
was telling her all about Mail and how happy I
was and all that. So she was like my best
year essentially. Yeah, I get what Mel's talking. I get
it because I mean, I don't know how many times
she tried to explain to me, but I did. Eventually
it sunk in the emotional like the not betrayal, but

(24:20):
the fact that she felt like she had to compete,
even though I didn't feel that way because I think
that our intimacy verbal, mental emotion is completely on a
different level to the other. But I see where she's
coming from, Like.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Maybe there's like a there's a sort of overlap right
where some of the emotional intimacy that maybe just a
partner would normally fulfill was kind of being met.

Speaker 5 (24:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (24:44):
Yeah, because you've got you've got someone that knows you
that well over years and has seen you through relationships
and stuff, so you know, it's it's almost like your
comfort zone, you know, and so I completely understand. I
completely get what Mel is talking about and the fact
that she felt, you know, like she wasn't number one,

(25:06):
which she always has, And I completely understand what she
says about trying to communicate that to me. Look, you know,
she would say that I'm always protecting her. It wasn't
never about protecting her. It was always about defending what
she Why she would have a problem with that, Like
I like, I just disagreed, Like from a logical perspective,

(25:30):
I disagreed as to why she would have such a
problem with that, because there's there's been a couple of
things that she sort of went, I don't agree with this,
And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, it's
not it doesn't I don't think it means anything.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
People can get stuck on the but it doesn't mean
anything where it's like it might mean nothing, but it
upsets Mel.

Speaker 6 (25:51):
I mean it's self preservation essentially, and that's what it was.
That And I think that, you know, Mel likes to
throw the term narcissist around and I try to tell her,
you know, it's not narcissism. They're are behaviors that fall
into narcissism that other people have like the defenseiveness and
self the need for self preservation, because that's how I
grew up.

Speaker 5 (26:11):
I grew up with a need to self preserve. You know.

Speaker 6 (26:14):
So when mel said certain things to me or broached
it and subject it felt felt like an attack. A
lot of the time she'd say things to me and
I'd take it. I'd take it as a slight on
my character, right, and I'd react to that because that's
how it was in my home. When you know, I
heard it from apparent, it.

Speaker 5 (26:33):
Was a slight.

Speaker 6 (26:33):
It was it was a slight on my character because
they had that they don't communicate well, and you know,
they've got the sort they've got their own sort of
you know, emotional agenda that they're not in control of.
And so yeah, so that you know, that played a
big part in the issues with our communication when she
would bring something up. Rather than rather than me approaching

(26:56):
it from an empathetic perspective, I'd approach it from she's
got an issue. And also because of her trust issues
through the relationship, I'm like, oh, she wants to brack up, Like.

Speaker 4 (27:05):
Like, so you go into fear.

Speaker 6 (27:07):
So there's fear and there's defense and the self preservation
and what that causes.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Is yeah, not ideal communication environment, is it. And I
know we've gotten a little off track because I know
you were actually bringing up recent birthday thing that happened
and how you know, and so I know, I do
know I sort of asked for a bit more context around
the but I do think it's just useful to kind
of have that in the background, that this was an
area that you thought was going to be more of

(27:34):
the what you wanted to sort of work through in
the session. But are you feeling well, I know you said,
I don't. I still don't think that Ethan quite understands.
Do you still feel that he doesn't quite understand what
happened or why that was upsetting.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think he understands why it was upsetting to me.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
I still I think we our opinions or perspectives differ
on I guess whether or not it was appropriate or not.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
And I think that that's just because everybody's different. He's different,
very different to me.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
And this is probably something that I go back to
a bit in terms of I don't want to make
him change completely, you know, his unique self, and it
just sounds like he's got to change he's got to change,
and you know that's not what I want for me.
It's just somebody that you know is himself to the
best of his ability and how he wants to be,

(28:28):
but more so somebody that I think our values.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
May be aligned.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
So I don't want to be that overbearing person that goes, well,
I need to control you and see what you need,
what you're doing, and who you're talking to.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
That's not what I want to be able to. Just
trust that his value.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Is sort of or he understands my values and what
I think is right or wrong on my perspectives, and
that I can he can go out in life and
do what he wants to do and not have me
looking over his shoulder thinking what is my You know,
I and he would just do I guess the right
things because our value is aligned. It's not that what

(29:03):
he did in this situation was really wrong. He never no,
you didn't think there was anything wrong with it. And
it's just because I guess if values is the right word,
but you know, what he thinks is respectful is very
different to me. And that's where I still full come
back to and I go, well, moving forward, is there
going to be another situation where it might not be

(29:24):
like this one, but where our what we think is
right or wrong or is respectful to each other differs.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
And I think that's a really good question and something
that I think I'm not going to have the word
taboo comes up, but it's not taboo. But I think
a lot of people can feel quite negatively about the
idea that what is appropriate needs to be negotiated within
a couple, because what you're saying here is, you know,
Ethan might have what he thinks is appropriate, Mel has

(29:53):
what she thinks is appropriate. They probably line up mostly,
but there will be a sliver that maybe doesn't and
that one might think is appropriate one might not. And look,
I think we can probably use common sense of like
really obvious things that both of you might agree are
inappropriate or not respectful. But I think every couple will

(30:13):
have differences where one is a bit more open and
doesn't care about certain things, or one person might find
that really uncomfortable or upsetting. And I do think it's
a conversation that gets missed a lot with couples of
actually sitting down and talking about Okay, well, these type
of things make me really uncomfortable. Oh they don't make
me uncomfortable. But if I know that makes you uncomfortable,

(30:34):
our work to be more aware so that I don't
do those things, or so that you know, I make
sure that I notice if that happens.

Speaker 4 (30:40):
Or you know.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
So I think it's just a discussion like that. So
I think you were raising that they're mal around. How
do I know in the future that And it's not
to say that we can think of every possible scenario
that could happen, but there might be just general behaviors
or general things that you know, make you feel a
bit uncomfortable, and vice versa. You know, even like there
will be things that potentially might make you feel uncomfortable.

(31:03):
And maybe male, maybe male hasn't figured out.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
What it is yet.

Speaker 5 (31:08):
I think I'm a lot I'm a lot more.

Speaker 6 (31:12):
You know, my boundaries are not the same, you know,
and and mill has I mean, for lack of a
better term, stricter boundaries around relationship. And and look, she's
I mean, you know, my friend wasn't the only one.
You know, there's there were a couple of you know,
a couple of ex's in my life that was in

(31:33):
touch with I. I don't know where I picked it
up because before I met this particular ex, I've been
in touch with for twenty years before that, if I
broke up with someone, there wasn't any contact after that.

Speaker 5 (31:47):
And and so.

Speaker 6 (31:48):
I think that, you know, when I met this person,
one of the first people she introduced me to it
a party, was her ex. And and I didn't have
a problem with that, you know, I'm like, you want
to be with someone with someone and that's the that's it. Yeah,
And I think that, you know, so it was like
it was habitual kind of behavior for me. It was

(32:10):
like normalized, yeah, you know. And and I think, you know,
my very last relations before Mel, I probably that's the
last person I should have been in touch with caused
me a lot of a lot of you know, heartache
and headache and stuff. But it's almost like there was
part of me that wanted to salvage something good out
of five years because if not for if not that,

(32:33):
then I just literally wasted sort of in my mind,
mine wasted five years of my life where I went
through you know, literally hell on Earth. And Mel had
a problem with that, and I was like, okay, yep, agreed,
like I'm not going to communicate with that person. And
then there was another person that I went out with
for a very short period of time, like fifteen years before,

(32:54):
and then we were just mates because we realized it's
not going to work out. So we were mates for
like a good fifteen years before mel came along and
sheared an issue with that. And it took her a
few tries to.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Me, I do have an issue. Oh okay, we talk
about yeah, no, no, no, but that was just whatever.

Speaker 6 (33:15):
Yeah, so I'm just like, no, no, no, but there's
I'm just mentioning it because you know, there's a big
feeling inside of her that she has to like pound
down the door for me to listen to her and
for me to actually hear her.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
I think one key thing, and I'm glad that you
touched on this, Ethan is I think I saw over
time this behavioral pattern in you where you had to
keep in contact with your exes even if they were
toxic and you knowingly.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Knew that they were.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
And I just thought, well, why are you keeping sort
of this negativity in your life? How do you move
forward without letting them go? And it's not for my
defense or anything. And there was another particular ex of
his I didn't know at the time, did whatever, But
through a conversation that Ethan shared with me, the new

(34:03):
partner of that his ex was actually the one that
had an issue with the way that they were communicating. So,
you know, for me to also paint a picture with
this past friend of twenty years as she's doing all
the wrong and it was she communicates like that with everybody.
It's not necessarily necessarily true. Sometimes I think that it
takes two people. And I think that for a long time,

(34:25):
Ethan encouraged that. Ethan, for whatever his reasons and traumas
in growing up, felt like he needed to hold on
to a lot of people that he was close to
his relationship in his life, not sort of understanding some
of the detriments that it would have for his future
relationships I impacting on ours right right now, and also
all the other ones that you might have just flagged

(34:47):
a little bit with me.

Speaker 6 (34:48):
For me, a relationship is based on friendship, and so
I think that a lot of the time, when when
that relationship was over, there was a there was a
need in me to salvage the friendship.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
Can I ask you a question, why then, when we
talk about us breaking up and I would say, you know, Peel,
you would feel upset about you were losing connections with the.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Kids and me and stuff. And I said, perhaps over.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
Time, after a long period of time where we've said,
perhaps we could be just amicable friends, and and he goes, no, No,
I could never be friends with you. I could never, never,
And so how does that make me feel if if
you came to be friends with all the plethoras of
your previous one but not with me when I'm apparently
the love of your life.

Speaker 6 (35:29):
Because because all the others did not, it didn't hurt
me as much as it would if you if we
weren together. I don't understand why that's hard to understand.
I've told you on several occasions how deeply I feel
for you, and I have not felt that way for anyone.
So being a friend with them it doesn't hurt me.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
It does hurt your relationship moving forward.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
And do you ever question why some of your relationships, Oh,
it also hurts the previous one.

Speaker 5 (35:57):
But the previous one, I mean lots of this.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
She made a comment, and you need to listen.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Maybe she detalled because she felt a particular way.

Speaker 5 (36:06):
You know, I look, yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
Look Maybe yeah, I can't.

Speaker 6 (36:15):
I mean, I can't argue with the logic, you know,
because and the thing is a lot of the time,
you know.

Speaker 5 (36:21):
We've had just this.

Speaker 6 (36:24):
Pushing it up a hill to get somewhere, and then
finally we get somewhere, and in retrospect I think about it,
I'm thinking I never thought about it in that way,
you know, And it's it's.

Speaker 4 (36:35):
So there's something about.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Something about the way you communicate with mel that makes
it like pushing uphill for her to get a message
through to you.

Speaker 5 (36:45):
Yeah, yeah, sure about certain things. And that's certain things.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Of course not all the time, by the way that
we wouldn't even be here right now.

Speaker 6 (36:51):
There are things that I feel really strongly about that,
you know, I think that she probably feels like it
falls on deaf years, but it doesn't because you know,
when this came up, with this particular X of twenty
five years, I did change certain things, but it wasn't
enough for her and she didn't feel like it was enough.

(37:12):
And then you know, something happened and we had a fighting.
We were on the way overseas and I got a
message and you know, it was in her eyes, it
was like, why does she need to send that message
it's a pro and I thought it's like, what's the
big deal kind of thing, And that was another example
of me not making her.

Speaker 5 (37:31):
Feel heard or valued in her position.

Speaker 6 (37:36):
And so I think that it was like, you know,
it was a chip chip chip chip about this particular subject.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
And I think that's essentially what you've raised in the
beginning there around mel around the boundaries just kept getting
chip chip chip to weigh at, and as did the
trust in that. And then now it's sort of like,
not that you were saying it's too late, but I
wish you had made the changes a bit earlier before
a certain amount of damage has been done.

Speaker 6 (38:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
At the time when I was asking him and having
these conversations with him, I was just trying to get
us to a point where it wasn't almost like it
wasn't a negotiation, but I guess it kind of was,
this is what I'm comfortable with. You know, I don't
want you to cut ties with her completely, but you know,
perhaps let's limit the communication, let's limit the style of communication.

Speaker 6 (38:26):
Well, it was it was birthdays. You can say happy birthday, Yeah,
that's what it was. Well, and that's what it was when.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
I was stay in touch on social media and those
sort of things, and then.

Speaker 5 (38:37):
On the platform no privateness.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
Yeah, and so he would sort of would think that
it was okay with that, and then the next day
would that, well, no, I can't have a proper conversation.
I want to be able to have a conversation call
her or something. I go, okay, well, birthdays, Christmases catch
up once a year or something. And then if I
look back and I'm saying it out loud, and I
feel so utterly stupid because here I am writing a
textbook rules and regulations. Who am I like the government

(39:01):
to tell my partner what's right or wrong and what
I feel comfortable with.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
But we did that.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
But for some reason, I felt but I was trying
to say, trying to do that because I wanted not
to take everything completely away from him. That was me
trying to be And then but the more I did that,
and then suddenly it would sort of from once a
year to twice a year, to phone calls now, to
this or that, and I just thought, hang on, my
boundaries are not negotiations.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
They are here what is firm.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
And so we got to the stage where we went
to see his therapist, and I felt like we were
on a very good page moving forward of what he
knew was acceptable for me and vice versa, and what
we needed to do moving forward. But unfortunately, I don't
know how long after that, Oh it might have been
like a week after that. I don't know why intuition

(39:55):
sometimes speaks to me weird like that. It said check
his Instagram, and not that I am habitual at checking
his phone at all, but I did, and lo and behold.
A couple of months after he said he stopped all
communications with her. You know, there was him sending reels and.

Speaker 5 (40:13):
I sent one messaging her and stuff.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
So I was like, well, you clearly knew that boundary,
but you broke it. It's not a big thing, but
for me it's just well I have nowhere to go.

Speaker 5 (40:24):
It is a big thing.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
We laid it out in front of the therapist and
you understood what you said.

Speaker 6 (40:28):
You understood it is a big thing. Was this message
is a big thing. And I don't care how many
eye roffeles I get around Australia. I did not send
that message on it was. It was a message that
was completely relevant to my friend and I with a
comment right then, I could have sent anyone, right. She
sent a message back. I didn't even respond because I

(40:51):
wasn't expecting any messages from her, right. So, but it
doesn't matter. It is what it is, as many eye
rolls as I might get. You know, it wasn't on purpose.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Okay, so you're saying it was a miss I actually
accidentally messaged.

Speaker 6 (41:02):
What was at was? You know, we had quite a
big fight before or after we went to see my therapist,
and you know, there was a lot of anxiety involved.
And I have a friend staying with me who's friends
with her, and one morning he said to me, this
person's pet died and I was walking out the door

(41:23):
and said, send it my sympathies. So I didn't tell
Mell about that. And for her, that did not equate
to being completely transparent, because we had.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
A huge conversation about transparency moving forward. If something happens
that might be questionable, you know, it's I'm okay if
you come and talk to me about it and say, hey,
look this happened, or should I respond or whatever it is,
that consult with me, like we're a team. But yeah,
I just felt that, you know, he had the opportunity
to tell me, and I guess you didn't. And that
was off the back of me seeing these messages as well,

(41:53):
and good to think about message.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
There was two messages. I just feel in a comment,
I just feel stupid, like you know, And yes, people
may roll their eyes at me.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
Here she is the silly girl.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
He said he made a mistake and said to the
wrong person, like how many guys have made a mistake
where that d has slipped into somewhere, you know.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
So I'm torn that.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Way, and I wondered if this perception of what other
people will think plays into it all your worries around
forgiving Ethan And obviously that's much on a smaller level,
not relating to this being recorded for a podcast, but
rather prior to that, just people in your life, friend's family,

(42:35):
whoever are you?

Speaker 4 (42:37):
Is that also something that bothers you?

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yeah, yeah, look, I think a little bit.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
Even though they I have the best friends in the
best family that wouldn't judge me like that, there's something
internally in me and maybe it's me judging me and
projecting them thinking that they will judge me.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah as a result, Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, after this short break, we dive into the reasons
why Mel feels that forgiving Ethan and committing to their
relationship can sometimes feel like self betrayal for her stay
with us. I think that's part of that story that

(43:19):
goes with it, like if I if I forgive him,
or if you know, I give this another shot, then yeah,
either I'm stupid or I'm letting the same things happen again,
or you know, So there's a fear around that. Yeah,
But it's interesting to see even as you guys talk
about it, there's this real both of you are almost

(43:41):
sort of viewing yourselves as potentially wrong, Like you know,
you're saying, maybe I'm wrong in believing this, or maybe
I'm wrong in you know, Oh, I know I'm.

Speaker 5 (43:53):
Wrong in the in the.

Speaker 6 (43:56):
I can be slow on the uptake, you know, when
it comes to it, and I think, you know, when
you know, it doesn't matter how many times you tell me.
Sometimes if it's not pad of what I do or
my my my behavior, sometimes it's very hard to you know,
And I can be very not mindful, so I can.
I can really, you know, so you know, I can.

(44:19):
I can go you know, in my head something will
happen and then like, you know, I'm not. And you know, unfortunately,
a lot of the time I interpret what is said
to me kind of thing, and and you know, I'm interpreted.
I'm generally interpreted in the wrong way. And you know,
I think after the fact, in the last month, we've

(44:39):
had a couple of things where I've been very transparent
and I'm like, this happened, and that's led to more
conversations and clarity. Yeah, I think that, you know, because
then something else happened and Mel was saying, well, that's
not you being completely transparent. It was something someone I
was like, Okay, that's another thing I should have you know,

(45:02):
said something, you know, and probably you know, I mean,
I don't want to give excuses, and I'm not I'm
not giving justifications, but like sometimes I'll be in this
emotional state, like because it was something that happened at
my parents' place, and and you know, then I came
to spend time with Mel and it was ages and
and I only said something when she asked me because

(45:23):
I've got nothing to hide. But that's not me not
being I should have come with that information. That's not
me being transparent.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
So it's not flagging in your mind as Hey, this
is important and I should share this with meth.

Speaker 6 (45:34):
Yeah, I think it's getting better, but but you know,
I think that obviously there this is a this is
a change in a complete change in perception. Yeah, that
I need to implement, and I think I think I'm
getting better at it.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
But yeah, and I think this is what it comes
down to, is that you know, consideration for another person.
So it's not to say that you're not considerate of mel.
But some people are more other focused and some people.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
Are more self focused.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
And if we've had to if we've had to protect
ourselves a lot growing up, we will naturally be more
self focused because we need to make sure that we're
safe and we're fine.

Speaker 6 (46:13):
And it's funny, though I don't see myself as self focused.
I see myself as other focused because I'm always wanting
to do things for people, et cetera. But then I
speak to I had a day where I spoke to
me all about seven times, and not once during that
time did I say how's your day going or how
are you Yeah, And then at the end of the

(46:33):
day I called her because I was talking to one
of my business partners and we were talking and I said,
let's go out to dinner and et cetera. And then
and I said, Okay, I'll talk to you tomorrow morning.
You know, she she had wanted to talk to me
the whole days about something and I was just all
over the place. And you know, the fight was about
me being really self centered. And I can be. I

(46:55):
can be very self focused when I'm going through MYSELFF.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
It's usually around emotional dysregulation. Right when I'm disregulated, I
am going to be locked in my own world and
thinking stuff. And so it's not to say that you're
a self whish person that doesn't care about others or
doesn't want to make people happy, But we just have
a focus, and that it intensifies when we're disregulated on ourselves.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
And then other people are more other focused, where.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
It's more Yeah, it's just their default is and usually
this is moller people please side of things, where they'll
think more about others and what they need then about themselves.
So it's almost like we need to pull those people
to think about themselves more and less about what other
people need. And then for other people, I need to
try and put myself. You know, what would mel how

(47:41):
would this impact Mel, or what might Mel need right now?

Speaker 4 (47:44):
Should I ask her? Or should I assume?

Speaker 3 (47:45):
What?

Speaker 4 (47:45):
Should you know?

Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's like kind of just that prompt to be putting
myself into Mel's shoes a bit more often.

Speaker 6 (47:51):
That's the contradiction in me though I'm a people pleaser. Yeah,
and at the same time, when something's going on in
my head, it's almost that everyone else falls away because.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Focused on So it's a dysregulation that flips you into
the other.

Speaker 6 (48:05):
And it's like, you know, that's same day I actually
said to her, come out, I'll buy your lunch, and
we met and I border and for me, that's that's
a connection.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Yeah, that is you caring for But it's her shoes.

Speaker 6 (48:18):
Yeah, it's not exactly, it's not empathizing. It's not saying
how's your day.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Going, just melting because Mel might not have needed the lunch,
so she might have really needed to just tell you something.

Speaker 6 (48:27):
Yeah, that's that's that's a lot of our three years.
It's it's about you know, I think that she used
to say when it suits you, which used to get
me riled up, because what.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
Do you mean when it suits me? I do this
for you?

Speaker 6 (48:39):
When I do this for you, and I do this
for you and and and when it suits me just
didn't click.

Speaker 5 (48:44):
But you know, looking further into.

Speaker 4 (48:47):
Its what we're talking about now, isn't it.

Speaker 6 (48:48):
It's not when it suits me. It's what I'm used to.
It's my way.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
But it's also when you're when you're obviously not dysregulated,
so you can focus, focus, focus to melt. Yeah, And
I mean, mel if you want to sort of jump
in here, and is that one of the pieces that
has Maybe that underlies a bit of the issue here
is feeling unseen or unheard because the focus is more

(49:17):
about what's happening in Yeah, happens.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
Absolutely when he talks about the when it suits you
sometimes sometimes for me and maybe this is my distrusting nature.
It's almost like, well, what's your agenda in this now?
Are you doing this extra stuff because to please me?

Speaker 1 (49:35):
To win me? Back to all that sort of stuff?

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Because when I had asked you for X, Y and
Z previously, or I explained, I basically wrote him a
manuscript of you know what I needed and you know
Fargo too, as much as love languages and things like that.
But I made it quite clear I felt for him
to understand. But a lot of the time it would
get missed or and now it's that sort of turnaround

(49:58):
and it's been amazing. But there's a little voice inside
of me that goes, what's the intention? Is it just
to so that we're back together and then be the
same not completely again, but yeah, potentially maybe old habits will.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Die hard and come back into life or yeah.

Speaker 6 (50:18):
And I'm trying to tell her that when you have
this behavior behavior for three or four months, that's ruistics.

Speaker 5 (50:26):
It's not a month, it's not too.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
I agree, I agree. I think it's a solid amount
of time.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
I usually like to say six months.

Speaker 5 (50:34):
Six day months, and the thing is fine.

Speaker 6 (50:37):
I mean, like, you know, I'm not if she wants to, like,
you know, keep an eye on for that time, that's
what she needs to do. I mean, it's just like
I'm not intending on changing.

Speaker 5 (50:48):
I'm not.

Speaker 6 (50:49):
My intention is not to win her back and then
be complacent.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
I can go back to my exactly because then I'll.

Speaker 5 (50:56):
Just lose it forever.

Speaker 6 (50:57):
And it's just like, so, so this is it's not
about control, it's not about this is about you know,
I've got a shock, a big shock, and you know,
the very real.

Speaker 5 (51:09):
The very real.

Speaker 6 (51:12):
Picture of her not being in my life. Yeah, you know,
dragged the hell out of me and put me in
a certain mode, which was like right, she has said.
You know, it's almost like her waiting for the bubble
to burst. She's in this lovely pink bubble of how
I behave, and it's almost like she's on the edge
of a seat waiting for everything to change. And I mean, look,

(51:32):
I work on logic, and you know, a lot of
the time I try to implement logic to her feelings
and that's not gonna that's never gonna work. And you know,
and I think a lot of our fights have been
because of that as well, because she says she feels
a certain way, and I'm like, that doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
So feelings don't have to make and actually feelings always
make sense if we dig deep enough, you know, like
it's never about the thing that we have a meltdown,
but it's never about that thing, and when we find
out what it really is about, it actually makes sense.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
But I know what you mean. I think when we.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Try and logic emotions, it's like an impasse because we're
not going to go now.

Speaker 6 (52:12):
And that's a lot of the emotions that Mel has
brought up to me many On many occasions, I get
this immediate feeling of discomfort, and then I try to
put logic into it.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Which I assume then Mel feels dismissive or defensive.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Or absolutely yeah, the whole smorgas board of that. Yeah,
and just not feeling hurd of it all.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
I mean the positive is that when Ethan sets his
mind to doing something, it's very solid and determined. And
that's why I can see it's so much effort that
he's putting into making these these changes. That's why it
is quite difficult. And like you said, I feel like
I am sitting in that little bit of a bubble.
I'm not sitting on the edge of my seat. I'm
actually feeling like I'm sitting in there. Sometimes I forget

(52:57):
sometimes it's so nice, like most of the time it
has been. And then there are other times where I
allow myself to go back to an argument that we
might have had back ages ago, and I think about
sort of the hurt, and I was like, oh my god,
how could I allow myself to sort of continue on

(53:18):
Not that it potentially will be like that again, but
how do I just forgive and forget those moments there
where I was so hurt, very vulnerable at the time
as well. And if he could hurt me at those
times where I'm most vulnerable, yeah, that scares me.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
I think a lot of those times, even prior.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
To that issue with the ex, we would have, you know,
a lot of conflict just because Yeah, things that I
would say. He would take it as an attack on
his character and use that logic to fight back, and
then I would say, no, but I feel this and
in season it's not making as.

Speaker 6 (53:54):
Anxiety would kick him because she was very you know,
she wore a shoot for a lot of our relationship,
was ready to go kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, and I don't think it's at the.

Speaker 6 (54:05):
Stage for for a lot of communication. And obviously I
have abandoned with issues. I think we both have abandoned
issues in some one way or another. But that anxiety
for me takes over. It's it's you know, I mean
again something it's a journey. But like in our relationship,

(54:25):
with the confines of our relationship, when we would have
an argument that.

Speaker 5 (54:31):
You know that that anxiety would.

Speaker 6 (54:33):
Literally take over and my behavior would be reactive to
the anxiety.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
Yeah, and it's not fair, but one to be in
a relationship where you feel like your partner is one
foot out the door.

Speaker 5 (54:44):
You know, I spent five years in the before.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Yeah, okay, but that's familiar territory for you. Yeah, and
inevitably you're still one foot out.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Yeah, well that's that's right.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
There was this stage where it was probably six months
prior to sort of that's that big issue, where I
felt quite maybe I wasn't vocal enough with Ethan to
let him know, but I was like, Okay, this this
is good.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
And I saw my best.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
Friend, I was like, oh my god, things are great,
Like I've never been so happy, those sort of things,
those sort of conversations, and but I guess life's not
always perfect that way. But what I was trying to
say before was, yes, it's not fair that he had
to deal with that one foot in, one foot out.
But and this is not my defense or anything, but

(55:29):
for me, it was a feeling of safety. So when
we had those those fights, I wouldn't feel safe. So
I just always think, well, Okay, if this is how
it's going to be over this issue, then how is
it going to be about another issue or a bigger issue?
And if I'm not feeling safe, that's my exit strategy.
So he has anxiety about and so this was my
self preservation in that Well, if this is how bad, it's, well,

(55:52):
I'm just gonna all the shoot get out. I'd rather
be alone, or I'd start dating and whatever. Ed.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
I just didn't want to be in that moment.

Speaker 4 (56:01):
Being all in for you is actually a very scary thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
It takes a lot of time to trust to sort
of get there. And I have said to Ethan that
you're the first person that I've come close to trusting
ninety never. I don't think I could ever trust someone
one hundred percent. I mean, that's I guess that's that's
me and the nature of me, and I should work
on that a bit more. But he came really close
until you know, until, But nobody is perfect, I suppose.

Speaker 5 (56:27):
And that's the thing.

Speaker 6 (56:29):
You feel really undervalued when someone you love is ready
to just leave me, and you feel like I must
not be very valuable to this person, I must not
be very important to this person. And you know, I'm
a communicator. I communicate my feelings freely, overly from mel

(56:49):
because she's not used to that, and you know, a
lot of the time she felt I might be have
an agenda or I'm trying to love vomber or whatever
whatever the case may be. But for me, I don't
have a problem communicating the fact that I love someone
and appreciate someone and that they mean everything to me. Yeah,
it's not the way around. So Mel does not communicate

(57:11):
in that way, and she does communicate in other ways,
which took took time, but like it took time for
me to I mean, you can understand something conceptually, but
it's a different thing when you feel feel it. And
so from much of the relationship, I just felt I
just was disposable.

Speaker 4 (57:28):
M m hm. So you know, do you still feel
that way.

Speaker 6 (57:34):
No, I haven't felt that way in a long in
probably a year. You know, I got it her, you know,
because she used to say, well, I'm here and I
when and to me it was like yeah, And you know,
I think that when she came to my therapist with me,
I think that was pretty impactful from me to do

(57:54):
it to me, and I expressed my appreciation. I told
her what that meant to me, and you know how
I felt about that. And you know, I think that
you know, her being here for the last three months.
I think is a pretty clear display of how she
feels about me.

Speaker 5 (58:13):
You know.

Speaker 6 (58:13):
But I'm out of my head. I'm out of my
I'm out of my brain now. Like now it's a
different you know, I was. I was very much involved
in in you know, my my my skull for a
long time, and now I think that, you know, there
are certain things that have happened that have caused a
sort of a paradigm shift in my my existence kind
of thing, how I exist in.

Speaker 5 (58:36):
Responding to the world in general, not just smelt.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Yeah, yeah, so I guess it's an impact you on
a broader level.

Speaker 4 (58:42):
Yeah, I want to go back mail to the birthday party.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
I don't know the birthday something because we've gone, We've
gone everywhere and come back.

Speaker 4 (58:50):
But that's I tend to just kind of follow wherever
it goes.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
But yeah, look, for me, it raised some particular emotions
that I didn't think that I need to process or
to deal with, to be honest, And I touched on.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
That, and that was guilt.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
Like I it was his birthday and use one of
those days where usually he would get like very long,
gushing birthday card from his friend and that was day where, yeah,
obviously I imagined or I projected that she's sitting at home
wishing that she could communicate to him, and he's probably

(59:22):
wishing or sort of longing a little bit that maybe
he would hear from her, and obviously both knowing that it's.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Not going to happen.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
And I sat there going, I feel really shitty and
bad about this, And so instead of a day where
we could have been celebrating together, it.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Was actually a crappy day. You're not in a good mood.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
And so I took that on a little bit more
like on another level, like, oh, he's feeling extra low
because maybe he's missing her, and I try their new
feelings that I only started sort of journaling and thinking
about now and going, well, why.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
Should I feel guilty? I didn't. I didn't cause this.
I mean I played a part. I think both of them.
He made that choice.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
He made that choice ultimately say I'm going to block
her completely and no longer talk to on all levels
if past that sort of boundary that we negotiate, and
I think for him he felt that it was something
he had to do that otherwise there was no way.
There was no way I would go back or go
back into this relationship at all.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
So for yes, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
Now I have to deal with feelings of guilt, and
yes I played a part of it. And could I
have been the nicer, gentle and cooler girlfriend that goes, oh,
that's okay, babe. You know you you had that long
term friendship and talk to her and have conversations where
we're lying in bed together and she's there on speakerphone
and ultimately being in our bed and it's okay. She
still calls you your anniversary nicknames and stuff and says

(01:00:49):
happy anniversary, babe, that's okay. And if your sister's kat die,
you call her first instead of calling me, you know, relationship, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Okay, bag, And we just trustrated a fence, like just
hearing like.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
You know, these are the things that upset now.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Yeah, So this is all the thoughts in my mind
where I think about it, and this is me justifying
why I shouldn't feel guilty, but ultimately I do. And
so now not only am I having to learn how
to trust and forgive again, now I have to feel
how to unpack feelings of guilt, and then the feelings
of guilt perhaps tied up to well, you shouldn't feel guilty.

(01:01:25):
This is just you being like a people pleaser, and
this is why you put other people's needs first because
you don't want to feel guilty.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Perhaps, so you've.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
Got to grow some balls a bit more and like
not be guilty and be tough and enforce the boundaries.
And so here I am back to that. Got to
be tough, got to move on and even if.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
I can't a weakness, I can't forgive.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
So you know, and the guilt is interesting because it's
almost like, yeah, when the guilt comes up, your position,
your eye position, which is like you're so your I
position is your principled position based on your values and
beliefs and you know, integrity and behaviors that you wish
to live by, right, that's your eye position. Once the
guilt comes up, your eye position ten waivers.

Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
So it's like, okay, I was clear that these were inappropriate,
this was inappropriate for me.

Speaker 4 (01:02:14):
I don't like that. It's not what I want in
a relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Felt clear. Birthday comes along, guilt comes up. Then it's like, oh, no,
have I been a bit harsh? Maybe I should have
been more cool like, so we can sort of your
reality and your eye position.

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
Starts to waver a little bit.

Speaker 8 (01:02:31):
Yeah, yeah, listeners, I'm just breaking in here to explain
a little bit more about the eye position, as it's
something you're going to hear about a lot more in
these sessions with mel and Ethan.

Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
So the eye.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Position is when we get a really clear stance on
what our principles, boundaries, and perspective is on something and
we come from a place of inner strength and not
from emotional reactivity. It helps guide us through life and
make sure that we are making decisions from a place
of value.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
It's hard to know what's the right thing to do.
I know there's no should in life. It's only what's
right for you, and I've got to be okay with
that ultimately. But yeah, it is hard to know, because
I think you touched on it before. In terms of
what I worry about what people will think or people
will judge me. So if I take one route, are
they going to judge me but being too weak? If

(01:03:26):
I take another route, am I going to be judged
for being too stern or an overly jealous girlfriend.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Or whatever it is? And that comes back to me.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
I suppose I need to learn to be okay and
trust my choices in life and be okay with you know,
whatever else anybody else thinks of it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Yeah, And it's also there's a part in it where
we also need to allow our.

Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
Partner to meet our needs.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
So you know, you've sort of said, these are my
needs around safety and in terms of emotional safety or
appropriate behaviors or blah blah. Ethan has gone a little
bit down the track, but Ethan has gone, okay, I'm
meeting those needs now. And then now that feels very uncomfortable.
Now it's like, oh no, now he's meeting my need.

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
Now I feel bad. I don't want to be controlling,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
So there's this real discomfort in feeling like you have
imposed upon another person yea, which is getting in the
way of you accepting and receiving a partner trying to
meet your needs.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
Yeah, And I guess I'm just quite because I like,
how do I.

Speaker 4 (01:04:36):
I do with that? Thanks Sarah? Yep, that's good. What
do I do with it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
I'm just keeping curious in my mind about your family
of origin and what boundaries were like there in terms
of how are boundaries set in the family. Did you
have boundaries? Were there lots, none, not enough? What did
it feel were you able to have a say and
be heard and seen.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Or not much at all.

Speaker 3 (01:05:03):
I think culturally it's from a background where women don't
really have so much of a say, and it was
role modeled in my family where Mum was very much
the give, a giver, doer of everything and Dad would
make the rules and that came down to me and
my sister as well in terms of you know, you
have to do this, and I could never sort of

(01:05:26):
voice my thoughts or opinions back that there was the
saying that my dad would always say in our language,
and it just meant that I can't argue back, don't
say anything, So there was no voice for me at Also,
I think all my life, I think I've been Yeah,
it's quietly spoken. I try to do the right thing,

(01:05:48):
hold myself accountable, and do the right thing to be
a good person.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
So yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Really you yeah, no wonder having your needs met might
feel very uncomfortable because you essentially the messaging is you
don't really have needs and if you do, they're less important.

Speaker 4 (01:06:05):
Than dads or mums whoever.

Speaker 6 (01:06:08):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Absolutely, So when I would have a thought or a
need in a relationship, I'd always question and put other
people's needs first, or Ethan's needs, And after a while,
when it became sort of too repetitive, then I'd sort
of have an outburst of it because it was.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
I guess resentment builds up or discomfort or you know, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (01:06:26):
It's with the I had the same experience. Yeah, I
wasn't heard. I wasn't like.

Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
But we go two different ways.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
So you go outwards, so you went loud, it went loud,
you went loud. Yeah, you went the other way, and
mele's gone inwards. Some people go out, some people go in.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
But I guess the other thing about our relationships. It's
the first relationship where it's really pushed me to be
a lot more vocal, and it's almost like fight and
speak up, and not always in a bad way. Sometimes
it's just you know, I want to speak more and
I say more and then we have good conversations through it.
But yeah, I'm finding my voice.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
Yeah yeah. And I think we all.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Have to sacrifice things in relationships, you know, like I
think that that I'm just guessing it might be in
a completely different context and nothing to do with an
ex sort. But I'm sure you have sacrificed certain things
for the relationship. Yeah, and so I think. And they
might have negative impacts on you. You might be sad

(01:07:23):
about it or wish you didn't have to, or stressed
or whatever. It may also impact you negatively in some way,
but you've obviously come to a decision that it's worth it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:34):
Otherwise you wouldn't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
And I think how do we apply that then to
Ethan's decision making as a grown adult himself has decided
that this sacrifice and the grief that he might that
he is going through over it, is worth it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
So it's his choice, not your fault.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
Because if he didn't want to do it, he wouldn't
And if he did it just because of you, and
even though he completely disagreed and thought it was absolutely
the wrong thing to do, then the work would be
with him around Why are you living outside of your principles?

Speaker 4 (01:08:04):
You know that's still his work, not you forcing him.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
You've just said this is what I need and if
you want to be in a relationship with me, this
is kind of yes or no? Can you or not
and none of that is control. And I think particularly
for people who've never been allowed to have needs, it
can feel like control when you're just saying, hey, this
is just what I need to be safe and happy.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Yeah, that's not controlling. Yeah, yeah, you've got to swing
that pendulum. It's almost like, am I that over controlling,
overbearing sort.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Of girlfrid now?

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
And I don't sort of want to be like that,
but yeah, definitely on both perspectives. Yeah, compromising the relationship,
it's just about weighing up the pros and the cons
and the benefits and yeah, moving forward from that. And
I mean I can definitely see all the benefits in
the relationship as well. That's why that's why I'm still here,
even though it's almost like I'm struggling and fighting within

(01:08:58):
myself internally despite it all. It's so weird. A lot
of it it's not Ethan. Ethan's like, I'm here, I've
got you. I want to move forward if you can
get through this, So why do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
I struggle so hard with? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:09:11):
Yeah, accepting that well.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
And I think that Yeah, obviously in one session we've
kind of we're going to need to start wrapping up.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
But we've kind of just been digging a little bit at.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
The iceberg at the top of the iceberg, and there's
a whole lot of stuff underneath it. But I think
in terms of moving forward or even for next week,
So usually I like to set a little bit of
whether a reflective piece or home as homework essentially, and
then we can kind of pick back up from there,
because I'm wondering if that's like, let's say, sort of

(01:09:42):
little part one of your homework is too. Yeah, just
do I still feel that fear of bringing things up?
And are they little even little things or like little
medium big things that I haven't been bringing up? Yeah,
that are actually important because we're also trying to find
your eye position, and so you lose your eye position

(01:10:04):
when the fear of abanonment comes up.

Speaker 5 (01:10:06):
So that's where I have a problem with my position
that she does.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Yeah, yeah, so yours gets weighed quite easily a lot more. Yeah, yeah,
So that could be interesting in what other ways do
I lose my eye position in the relationship, because that's
obviously mainly what we're here to focus on. But in
terms of so Ethan is my eye position? M hm,
where do I lose it?

Speaker 6 (01:10:30):
Look when we met, I've just like regurgitated my entire life.

Speaker 5 (01:10:35):
I wanted to make sure that, like, you know, she knew.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
So I'll be saying the eye position and see me
losing my mind. Now I said the eye position, and
what did I?

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
Yeah, we're bringing up anything that Yes, what am I?

Speaker 4 (01:10:52):
Yeah? What am I sitting on? Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
So that's the two points of reflection and we'll chat
about bring it up in the next session. So just
whether you write it down or notes in your phone however, Yeah,
because if we're thinking about trying to circuit break particular
patterns that have been unhelpful, if that's one of the
things that you're like, yep, I know, I sit on it,
sit on it, sit on it, and then it comes out,

(01:11:17):
or if that's the general thing, and then your eye position,
because it will probably show up in a few different
ways in the relationship, not just the fear of abandonment.

Speaker 4 (01:11:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
And then now, so I think yours is really around
that self doubt type of thing, so like, yeah, and
I think it's around family of origin stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
So I'm wondering.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
Whether it's around what feelings feel familiar? So does it
feel familiar to feel guilty around asking for things or saying,
you know, saying what I need or imposing having anything
that seems to cause a burden or imposition on somebody else, That.

Speaker 3 (01:12:03):
Big b word burden. Don't want to be a burden
to anybody. It's okay if I can do at first myself.
Don't ask unless you really have.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
To here, Yeah, so how am I you know what
you're home? How am I getting in my own way?

Speaker 4 (01:12:17):
Yeah? So how am I getting in my own way?

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
And these will be, yeah, my judgments on myself, the
fear of other people's judgments of me, fear of vulnerability,
the one foot in, one foot out. So I'd be
kind of even if you sort of were to list
the main things that you know are generally you getting
in your way, and then I would try and link
them back to because they're all behaviors that were developed

(01:12:40):
to protect you. And so if I link them back to,
where was that actually helpful? Maybe that was helpful to
me growing up, you know, like maybe being too invested
in someone or something was dangerous because I would get
let down or you know, I'm kind of making up
stories here, but whatever that would apply in your childhood.

Speaker 4 (01:12:59):
Yeah, Okay, I was just guessing.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
I'm guessing, but yeah, and really looking at so these
what can I them all back to so that when
they do come up in the here and now, when
we've got awareness of exactly where that came from and
how we can go Okay, this is not actually a
by position, thoughtful adult decision that I'm making. This is
just you know, fearful little me that is still.

Speaker 4 (01:13:25):
Stuck in that family. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
Family of origin dynamic helps you just get more clear
around like is that actually useful helpful thinking or is
that little me stuck in that cycle?

Speaker 4 (01:13:37):
Yeah? And how are you feeling to sort of wrap
it up and finish you've made it?

Speaker 5 (01:13:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:13:42):
Yeah, yep, very good.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
I drew from the Bowen family systems theory perspective for
both Mel and Ethan's homework because it seemed to be
quite relevant to a lot of the issues that were
struggling with in their relationship. For example, with Mel, I've
asked her to first of all, have a look at
where she gets in her own way. So there are

(01:14:15):
certain behaviors that she does or that she struggles to
receive her needs being met, for example, that are actually
counterintuitive to what she's trying to do in terms of
building trust and forgiveness in this relationship. And where these
behaviors originate from, I think are from a long time ago,

(01:14:39):
and they're just default protective behaviors that are playing out
now that are actually no longer protecting her but in
fact getting in her way. So Bowen speaks about our
families of origin as essentially being the family that you
grow up in. So whether they're actually your blood relatives
or just the people you lived with from a small

(01:15:01):
infant to you know, teenage to adulthood, these are the
people who create the blueprint of essentially how you view
relationships yourself other people.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):
They create the role.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
That you are going to take it in the family
within that system. So what type of role do I play?
What position do I find myself in? And in that
are there boundaries? Are there no boundaries?

Speaker 4 (01:15:27):
Am I heard? Am I not heard?

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
And this often then gets replicated in other important relationships
in our life, even the workplace friendships, and definitely in
our romantic relationships. So I think it's important to help
mel get clear and link each behavior that she does
that she knows is not helpful to where that came from.

Speaker 4 (01:15:50):
In her family of.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
Origin, why did that develop, what was its function and
does it still have a place in my life now?
And in terms of Ethan, asking him to get clear
on his eye position and in what areas he loses
it is important because I think this is going to

(01:16:12):
help him be able to be more consistent and direct
with what his needs are in the relationship and not
create potential situations where maybe this is what's caused some
of the ruptures between him and Mel, where other people's
needs or feelings were considered above Mel's. And the other

(01:16:34):
part I think that was important in his homework is
for him to reflect on do I sit on some
things that I do need to raise out of fear
of Mel leaving me? Because I think that is also
a pretty tricky spot to be in if you want.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
To be in a healthy relationship. Yeah, there's a lot
which is good.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
I think you're really glad that we did this, and
I think that Sarah touched on quite a lot of
good points that I'm keen to dig into, and particularly
the homeworkers as well, to unpack that because for me,
it's always the how, Like logically I know this, but like,
how do you get there? How do you make sure
what you're thinking is sort of correct and aligned. So
I'm thinking that I statement, which is very new to me,

(01:17:23):
and the exercises around that and linking it back to
family and heretation stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
Yeah, hopefully I can do that. Yeah, because I am logical,
irrational person.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
So if I have an unprocess driven so if I
have those instructions and maybe I can figure it out.

Speaker 6 (01:17:47):
So as far as the homework that has been assigned,
I think that, Look, it's a difficult one for me.
I'm one that expresses himself pretty clearly, and if I
have a knee or if I'm angry, et cetera. But
you know, I'll give it a good think. I mean,
you know, I've consistently found in this relationship that I'm
constantly and covering things that I was blind to, So

(01:18:10):
you know, I'm going to give it just as much effort.
I think next week will be in a good position.
I'm pretty positive aboarment and have been. I've always been
the more positive here, right, and I don't think I
don't think any differently.

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
I'm really looking forward to my next session with Ethan
and mel. There's a strong foundation of self awareness and
a willingness to understand each other better that I hope
can really help them make the progress they both seem
to want, without any sense of self abandonment or loss
of boundaries. The second part of Ethan and Mel's session

(01:18:51):
comes out in a few days, but if you don't
want to wait, Mumma Mia subscribers have early access to
the episode in full right now. Follow the link in
the show notes to listen. This Is Why We Fight
was created by Niama Brown and Eliza Soarmon Nilson. The
executive producer is Naima Brown. Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.

(01:19:12):
Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound
designed by Jacob Brown. Additional production support from Leah Porgus
and Coco Levine. Our casting producer was Lisa Storer. If
this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or if
you just feel like you need a bit of help,
there are links in our show notes to resources available

(01:19:32):
to you right now, as well as how to connect
with my practice Motivated Minds. If you'd like to apply
to beyond the next season of This Is Why We Fight,
there's a link to the application in our show notes too.
I'm Sarah Bays, thanks for listening,

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