Ethan & Mel [Part 2 of 2]: Should This On-Again-Off-Again Couple Be On-Again?

Ethan and Mel are learning how their previous relationships have shaped them, and how their very different emotional and cultural backgrounds impact their relationship. In this session, they address the patterns and behaviours that have caused them to break-up in the past, and decide whether or not to give it one more go. 

Listen to Part 1 of Ethan & Mel's sessions here. 

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
• Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

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• Host: Sarah Bays
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• Audio production: Thom Lion and Jacob Round
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters this podcast was recorded on. This podcast has been
produced with the strongest regard for the wellbeing of our participants,
all of whom have chosen to share their biggest relationship
struggles in the hopes of helping other people. All participants
have been provided with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

(00:37):
Welcome back to This is why we fight, real people,
real problems, real therapy.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
My name is Sarah Bays.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training
working with individuals, couples, and families. This is part two
of my sessions with Ethan and Mel. Ethan and Mel
are currently in a kind of relationship limbo, where for
Ethan he's all in and for Mel, she's got one
foot out the door. The homework I assigned Ethan and

(01:08):
Mel was for Ethan to spend some time really focusing
on identifying his eye position, his valued purpose driven stamps,
and for Mel to spend some time thinking about how
her family of origin may have created patterns that are
no longer serving her. If you haven't listened to the
first session yet go back and start there. Let's jump

(01:29):
back in. Here's Ethan and mel Mel and Ethan. It's
good to see you guys again.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
Could see you.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Nice to see you. Thanks for having us skin. Oh
you're welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
I mean, I would love to hear what's happened this
week in terms of thoughts, any processing that happened after
the last session, wherever either one of you would like
to start.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Okay, so homework check in. Yeah. I put some thought
around that.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
I think you asked us to have a look at
things that were potentially habits or behaviors that were no
longer serving us.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Mainly you. That was your home.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Ethan's like, oh no, that's not what I did, but
yes that was yours.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
And look I jotted down a couple of things, and
I think for well a few things. But through that,
potentially they had two themes. I'd like to pull it
the first one. The first theme was probably about my
behavior and relationships potentially after my divorce. Was this whole
one foot in, one foot out, or as Ethan would

(02:36):
like to call it, having that parachute ready to pull
the sort of trigger.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, pull the.

Speaker 4 (02:40):
Chute and trying to figure out where that came from
and why I do that?

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Why I do that?

Speaker 4 (02:46):
I mean, I think initially I try to tell myself
like it's this Buddha Zen sort of behavior where if
something comes, that it come, If it goes, that it goes,
don't be too detached. And whilst there's a truth to that,
I think it's probably realistically more a fear of abandonment
or a fear of ultimately this belief that I have

(03:06):
in myself that people or men let's say, yes, let's
call it more men so more so will disappoint me
or let me down.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Eventually it hurt me.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
So being sort of detached, not going all in, looking
for reasons to stay not completely committed, helps me think
that I am safer because if I don't, you know,
feel for them too much, then they can't disappoint me
as much as they potentially could.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
So there's that, And I.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
Guess if I look back to where that might have
come from. Family, for sure, my dad, that was probably
the first sort of and yeah, around that my father,
can I elaborate.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
It's a good dad. He did the best that he could.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
I think growing up in you know, the Asian culture
dynamic that I have.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
It was a stern love.

Speaker 4 (04:04):
It was you know, you've got to achieve a success,
You've been going to be a good girl. You've got
to have straight a's and have the right career and
marry the right person.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
That's how I felt that that's how you get love.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Ultimately, now growing up and having a different relationship with
him and my mum as well, and seeing them with
my children, it's so different, and also being a parent yourself,
you kind of realized, no, they did love me, and
they cared for me and raised me the best way
that they.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Could with the skill sets they had.

Speaker 4 (04:37):
But when I was younger, in my teenage years, I
didn't understand that and I rebelled. So I don't think
that he loved me unconditionally as I probably needed.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
It was very conditional.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
So that was the first disappointment, and then ultimately the
ex husband sort of disappointed me multiple times. But I
take responsibility for that in that, you know, I stayed
a lot.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
I didn't have those boundaries. I stayed more than I
I should have.

Speaker 4 (05:07):
That I knew, you know, the gut was telling me
that it wasn't quite right. But yeah, so I think
that's it's not surprising.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
It's a predictive behavior when you have a certain parent
that impacts you in a certain way, and then you
choose a partner in order to sort of complete that,
you know, hopefully get from the partner what you didn't
get from the parents, and you choose a partner that
is more in some way like the parent. And I
think with Mel's it's the fact that she couldn't feel

(05:40):
like she could rely on first her dad, and then
she couldn't rely on her ex husband, And when I
came along, every little thing, and I'm talking minuscule was massive.
I can't rely on you. What it's like you're letting
me down. You know. It's thank god I'm a stickler

(06:02):
for time, because if I wasn't this, we wouldn't be
sitting here, you know what I mean. I would be
like you know, when it comes to I'm one of
those people that's ocd about so I'm like five minutes early,
always doesn't matter where I'm going. But there's a lot
of other things that I'm very lax about and very
open about very you know, neither here nor there. I'm

(06:23):
pretty I'm pretty chill about a lot of things, and
so I've behaved that way with mel and she's like, no,
you know, this won't do et cetera, et cetera. So
it's felt very I won't say regimental, I've said I'll
say draconian at times, because I felt that she's completely

(06:48):
disregarded a lot of what I do and a lot
of the time that I save her when she sometimes
says that I don't value her time because you know,
I've I haven't kept her posted about something. You know,
that's I think now cured. I think I've literally Look,

(07:08):
you know, I'm the type of person that I will
change my behavior and I will do it mentally. I
will do it through you know, a certain level of
mental fortitude. Yeah, and just go okay, I need I
need just like you know, sort of being put like
being put on performance management. Yes, it's like you know,

(07:31):
if you're not doing if you're not doing well at work,
or you need to change certain habits, you'll be pulled
into an office, does it. You know you have to change.
I've done it to a lot of people in my
career before, and you know that either can change that
they can't. So with me, it's you know, I think that,
which you know is a follow through from my from
my homework. Goody. I think, yes, I've never compromised my

(07:53):
position unconsciously. Yes, it's always been consciously. And I was
talking to them all about it today. And because between
between my last relationship and Mel, I had a lot
of things happen, a lot of like a lot of
personal crap. And then when I met Meil, I've been
single prolep two years and I've been going through a

(08:18):
lot of therapy, and so I think that, you know,
whenever the question came up of compromising my eye position
with Mel, I was like, Okay, no, I'm not going
to do this. I'm not going to get into this habit.
And I went to my therapist and I'm like, this
is the situation, and I'd get feedback yep, and I'd
be I'd understand that it's not really I mean, it

(08:42):
is compromising my eye, but my eye should be compromised
in that like it's for a good reason. In other words,
I'm either being self centered or I'm being I mean,
you know, the thing is, and you know, Meil doesn't
doesn't enjoy this about me either. It's I have I
have friends from all different sides of the rainbow, and

(09:06):
I and very shredding with a lot of them, you know,
so I will you know, make jokes racial jokes to
them or you know whatever whatever the minority they belong to,
and Mel doesn't find that kind, you know. I you know,
for me, it's it's something that is an endearing like

(09:27):
I do it because it's sort of it. It sort
of brings a lot of attention to the difference between us,
but then makes it work nothing, it doesn't. It sort
of you know, cancels it. I can't explain it. But
but because you make a joke out of it, and
they make a joke at me as well. Right, for me,

(09:48):
it's something that brings us closer together.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
And I guess if we bring it free, focus it
back to the relationship. Right. So this is a behavior
that you see Ethan do outside of the relationship, but
do you also see him do it with him? Because
it's one thing to say, Oh, I see you do
that with your friends, and I feel like I'm uncomfortable,
But I feel that usually more of an issue when
it also happens.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
In one And that was earlier on in the relationship. Oh, dear.

Speaker 4 (10:15):
And it's so weird because we are almost like chalk
and cheese in that way, because I'm so like, I
don't like to label myself as a prude, but there's
something about me that it's like, you've got to be respectable,
you've got to act prim and proper. You've got almost
like this perfectionist mentality or no, you can't say that.
But aside from that, I also think that it's important
to sort of be kind and I believe in like

(10:36):
you don't say something if what is the don't say
it at all sort of mentality. So when he would
joke about certain things, I can't remember a lot of
them now within the relationship. It wasn't about my ethnicity
or something like that. Like first couple of times I
would sort of laugh, and then it was sort of

(10:56):
hit again, hit again, and then some of the jokes
were almost like, oh, call it like take away jokes.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
It was almost like I can't remember it exactly.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
But that wasn't that wasn't that wasn't race No, no, no,
that was those were so so there were I do
and I haven't. That happened a lot earlier on.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
But then I spoke about it and then he was
like fixed it.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
And you know, I think that going into this relationship,
I think that you know, as I said, I came
from therapy and I thought I was fixed. Then I
came into a relationship and I realized that the dynamic
of me in a relationship, I tend to be quite controlling.
I tend to be on the arrogant side, you know,

(11:40):
you know fig jam.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
And so I think for a lot of the relationship,
you know, I didn't give Mel the credit that she
deserved for her insight and for intuition, because I know everything.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
I know it all.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
And and look, you know, I'm luky, yes, Okay, So
I've had a lot of experience. I've been a lot
of places blah blah blah, I know people, et cetera.
The funny thing is is that you know, as as
much insight as I thought I had into myself in
every in every relationship before Mel, you know, I probably

(12:21):
didn't accept the inside that they had. With Mel, it's different.
I didn't accept it at first, but I think, you know,
moving across, like across the number of years that we've
been together, I've realized, you know, that she has a
lot to offer as far as insight into me. And

(12:42):
you know, I look, I tell everyone that I've changed
dramatically since meeting mel and I'm a better person for
for for having her in my life. And that's why
I feel the way I feel about her. I mean,
you know, she she represents what I would, what I've
always envisaged to be what you want out of that relationship.

(13:04):
And she's pushed me, and she's prodded me, and she's
there's been a lot of friction between us, and I've
done a lot of growing because of that. I'm you know, I'm.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Assuming she has too moles nodding over there.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
But yeah, look, I think I think particularly now in
this stage here, as I said, going back to the
eye position, Yeah, I have. I have on every occasion
gone back to my therapist and said, I'm I'm I'm

(13:40):
expected to compromise this and understood that it's not a compromise,
it's just normal behavior.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
I think that's such.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
A good point about eye positions, though, because some maybe
there's confusion around Yeah, because an eye position isn't from
a place of ego or self cenderedness or righteousness. It
is really aligned with my principles and values. So if
it may be certain things may not have actually been
an eye position and may have been something else. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(14:11):
and then it sounds like you and your therapist actually
found your eye position in that, and then you can
come back and go, okay, so my eye position is this,
and that may be one that's more because.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
I was okay. Just because I thought something was okay
doesn't mean it's okay. You know, very certain things that
had happened in a relationship, particularly the last dramatic occurrence
kind of thing, that that sort of jy you into
a self reflective mode, you know, and a sort of hindsight,

(14:43):
you know, perspective of the relationship of what you're being
asked of, how much you value or how much value
you didn't show, or how much or what your behavior
was like you know, for some I don't know why.
I mean, human nature is a funny thing. But you know,
even now, like you know, when I'd like to think

(15:04):
that I'm super self aware, you know, then something like
that happens and I sort of look back and and
I'm like, why didn't I see this before? Why Why
did you know a volcano have to explode in my face?
In order for me to like be forced to just
go ah, you.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Know it's and so there's something about Mel's experience or
perception that felt I don't know, there's a resistance to
going into Mele's shoes, right, So previously when it was
sort of like, well, if I don't think it matters,
then it shouldn't matter, or you know, so there's something
there around like I don't want to really hear or

(15:47):
understand more about why you think there's a problem there.
But if we go back to you, Mel in terms
of the fear of being disappointed, and I think which
then feeds into what you were just saying there ethan
about that what comes out is maybe being critical or
hypervigilant or unforgiving. Do you feel like that place out

(16:07):
strongly for you now or do you feel that you
have been able to tolerate more Because I guess at
the minute, you're sort of considering whether or not this
is a relationship that is going to be sustainable for
you long term. So there's a sense of almost evaluation
in that. Yeah, and that's okay, that's not an issue.
But in your evaluating of this, do you feel like

(16:28):
you are being balanced and moderate or can you feel
that kind of critical Yeah, sort of side, which is
more that protective if I don't want to be disappointed.

Speaker 4 (16:36):
Yeah, it's definitely at the beginning of the relationship, more
so probably the first year or so, hyper visual and hypercritical,
just any little thing.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Oh no, that's reflect that's you know, I do. But
towards moving.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
Forward, as I felt safer in the relationship, I was,
I think, and Ethan can sort of attest to this
or not that I felt that I was a lot
more laxed. I would be a bit more forgiving with
certain things up to the point obviously where we had
that last issue. But then when you have such a
bigger issue, is that all those other sort of little

(17:10):
bits and things like that doesn't even sort of raise them.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, and there.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
Sorry, the first twelve months. I think it's important to
mention that even though mel calmed down, that's twelve months
of my experience living that daily and that has you know,
almost a PTSD kind of effect on it.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
The thing around that is, I guess, rightly or wrongly,
all those times where I wanted to eject and I
believe so strongly that this relationship is not going to work.
We're so different in certain ways, X, Y and Z
and all that ething was just a solid rock. It
was almost like he knew my fear of a commitment,
or he knew sort of those trigger points, and he'd be, no,

(17:57):
I'm not going to let you do this.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
We're going to work through what we're going to So
in a way.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
I suppose I needed that because I'd never had somebody
there for me or figure that would say, Okay, well,
if you're freaking out and you're not panicking, but I'm
still here whatever. He used to say things like, doesn't
matter if we fight, no matter what you say or.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Do, I'm going to be here. I'm still here.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
And as much as I would try to push him
away at those times, and it's probably what I was
doing self sabotaging, but he was quite solid, and perhaps
I was testing him in an unconscious way with it all,
But I guess that was good. But on the flip side,
it has its cons around that in that it probably yeah,
like you said, traumatized him for the first twelve months,

(18:39):
and so anything else that I would raise beyond that
it would be all she wants out again. And even
though I was no longer out. I was like, no, no,
I'm actually bringing this because I want to talk about
it and don't want to resolve it.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
He would think that are you fighting again? Is this out?
Are you about to pack? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:55):
So the panic, Yeah, so there's that like nervous system activate.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
You know, in the first sort of six months to
a year, I'm not anxiety is not it's not triggered,
it's not part of the experience as much because I'm not.
I don't. I'm not. My emotions are not that cemented,
so to speak. You know, I've never I mean from

(19:20):
day one and from the moment we got together, I
have not felt any differently. I've been very sure about
mel but still you're not together for three four five years.
You're together for a few months, and you know, the
the concept of you're not being together is not as

(19:42):
dramatic as it is after a year, a year and
a half, two years. So when my so when you know,
my feelings really started sort of becoming entrenched, probably after
the first year, when these things came up, I would
have an anxiety reaction, and my anxiety reaction is aggression,

(20:07):
is you know, sort of it's frustrate I haven't. I
have a reaction both to anxiety and frustration in the
same way. It comes in as this sort of anger.
I get loud, I get I get you know, quite
aggressive verbally, not abusive, but aggressive. And that didn't work

(20:30):
at all, because, like Mel comes from a very different,
you know, atmosphere, So you know from I came. I
came from a shouty atmosphere. When you want to have
a five.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Loud family, Yeah, and what happened Mel tell tells what
you what happened for you. So when Ethan gets like that,
what how do you respond?

Speaker 4 (20:48):
I retreat the only way I know how to do
it when it gets too much. Obviously, there will be
the moments where I'm trying to explain. We're talking and talking,
but something then just triggers and it's an override and
you talk about what is it fight or flight or
so I start packing. So if I'm at his place
or something and suddenly I can no longer engage in
what we're saying, he will talk to me, but it's
like my body is just I have to do something

(21:09):
else and I'm packing the bag and that sets him off.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
She is like, can you stop packing? You just stop
doing that, because it's just stop.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
It's just because it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, and also the abandonment.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
She ignores me, and really worst thing in the world
to do to me is not she doesn't look at
my she doesn't look at my eyes. She's not engaged.
And the minute she gets disengaged, I'm not because I've
had I have trauma from previous relationships where that was
one of the behaviors, and you know, I think that

(21:43):
that really really triggered me, and and that became a
real issue between us because there was there was a
lot of time where I didn't express issues that I
had in the relationship and how I felt in the relationship,
because you know, there was a couple of times where
I tried to and I sort of got a response

(22:04):
of oh, well, you know, if it's not working, if
maybe we're not meant to be to get kind of thing.
So that sort of shut me down, and I didn't
feel I was in a safe place to share those feelings.
And so because I didn't share those feelings, they were
bottled up. So every time something came along and and
mel sort of didn't agree with me or said something

(22:26):
that to me was I felt like a slight on
my character or something, I would just explode and I'd
get really aggressive. So for me, it's a fight, not
a flight. Yeah and yeah, and then it would just
like you know, it would you know. The one thing
that I don't do. I mean, you know, Mel has

(22:46):
a habit of sort of you know, diving down in
the dumps when we argue, and like, you know, there's
the cheap shots and there's the you know, stuff like that.
I don't do that.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
So you don't get nasty or you know, low blows
but get aggressive. Do you get a bit critical?

Speaker 3 (23:03):
No. The worst that I get with that is I
start saying what's wrong with you? Like you like you know,
but I don't say you're not normal.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
We feel quite crazy and earlier on the relationship when
I think I wasn't so solid in who I am
sort of now I do question my reality a lot
of the times. And I used to think that I
was the problem and that I was having trouble communication.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
That's not about me saying that what's wrong with you?
That was more about So sometimes I'd say things, and
I say things and my head might say something else sometimes,
so my intention I might say something that you know,
is high level, and my mind might have the details

(23:51):
that I don't share or something. So when I say something,
Mel takes it at face value, right, So you know,
she said to me at one stage that, you know,
a lot of the times she was recording her conversations
and her fight, so it was in both situations, and
said that I had her questioning her reality sometimes, and
I was like, well, that's shit. I don't. I don't

(24:12):
want to make it. I didn't want to make her
feel that. It was like, you know, I didn't. I
didn't realize you know that I was also perpetual perpetuating
a behavior from before as well, you know, which is
me just saying things without being mindful of the words
that I'm using or exactly what I'm saying. I could
even say, Okay, i'll see it tomorrow, I'll come over

(24:35):
tomorrow for whatever reason, and I'd forget because I'm just like,
see you later, i'll see it tomorrow, I might see tomorrow.
Or then i'd say I might see tomorrow, but then
there's no call the next day saying, oh, look, you
know I said I might see it tomorrow, but I can't,
and I just won't come and that's where the value
of time sort of kicked in.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
After this break, Melan Ethan continue to shed light on
the differences in their communication and conflict styles and how
they might be able to move past some of their
communication blockages stay with us.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
For me, it's all about consistency.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
I think it's one of those things, and guys are
great at doing it at the beginning, you know, the
good morning messages, messages throughout the day, or no flowers whatever,
and this and that, and then towards whatever period, it
sort of laxes off, and you know, you just kind
of think, well, you know, I don't mind if you don't,
but just show me a behavior that is ultimately you
and be consistent through it all sort of thing. Don't

(25:41):
be like that and stop and start. And for me,
it plays on my guests a little bit of that
fear of abandonment, sort of the old he doesn't like
me anymore? Why didn't he call me today? Or you know,
does he have somebody else? That's predominantly the fears that
I have early on in the relationship. I guess something
happens well at the very very beginning, I'm disconnected.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
I'm cool, it's fine.

Speaker 4 (25:59):
But as soon as I sort of have feelings, then
I start to freak out and padic. That's when I
probably do the self sabotaging and the pushing and the testing.
And then somewhere along the lines, if I managed to
stay in the relationship for long enough, I fall into
that sweet spot and I think we were able to
sort of feel that groove, or I could anyway for
a little period in time. Maybe I had had no idea,

(26:23):
words of affirmation and all that sort of it doesn't
come naturally for me.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
With Ethan.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
He is so doting with his words. It's like, I
love you, this is it. And for me, I would
kind of look at him and it's something stuck in
my throat. I'm like, thank you, I love you too.
But it doesn't mean that I don't love him and
I don't feel for it. But I guess I show
it in different ways, and for him, he needs to
hear it. He needs the is the adoration and admiration.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Words of affirmation, and maybe you need the reminder in
your calendar. Like that's not natural to me. Tell Ethan
I love him, you.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
Know, yeah, Look I'm not. The thing is I have
never you know this is not the usual relationship for me.
That's another thing. Is not the kind of person that
I have gone for before. Her behavior, her demeanor very
different from previous relationships, and in my previous relationships, I

(27:20):
mean generally I'm used to being. I mean, there's there's
a certain level of for lack of a better term, adoration,
you know, and so kind of someone who's like completely
non verbal, completely non communicative of her adoration, not aeration,

(27:42):
but like you know, it makes you feel, you know,
for me, because I don't get that. I overcompensate with action, right,
But then I still don't get that, and then the
resentment sort of kicks in. It's like I'm being I'm
not being valued, I'm not being appreciated, I'm not being

(28:02):
and then on top of that, you have her criticism
of me the relationship. But I will take it to
the bank that someone like me is not easy to
find out there someone who makes the effort that I
do in a relationship, someone who goes to the lengths
that I do to make someone feel loved, to make

(28:25):
someone feel thought of, to make someone in my way. Yeah, yeah,
you know the way that I know how.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
And so and I think it's number one. I think
it is important to have these values and beliefs about yourself,
Like if you like knowing what you bring to a
relationship or what value And it's interesting whether our partner
feels the same way. You know, It's like I can
know what I bring to a relationship, but if there's
some type of why it is getting crossed between what
I think I bring and how it's being received.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
It doesn't matter how much I can take a gift
to vegetarian.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Well, that's right. And so that's where I'm wondering, Like,
you know, obviously these are the things that Ethan feels
that he is, that's his strong suit, and these are
the things I do. Well do you receive them that way?
And the things you were criticizing or you know, not
happy with the or uncomfortable about were other things? Or
is it actually like, yes, I know that you feel this,
but it gets received differently on my end.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
No, it's the other things.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
It was the other things.

Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yes, you're right, I think I had at the beginning
of the relationship. I had this for rightly or wrongly,
a pros and consist I would write out all the
sort of things that we're sort of not right in
the relationship and all the good things, and there was
always a much stronger prose list on. There was constantly,
you know, the effort and all the good things that

(29:43):
Ethan was talking about previously as well. Yes, there were
all the sort of things that would stress me out
and irk me as well. But what was the question again,
whether or not other it was the other things that
he was I was always receiving those sort of things.
But when he says those things about you know, if

(30:04):
you leave me, you know, I'm going to feel so
sorry for you, but You're not going to realize until
it's too late.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Again, that's paraphrasy.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
No, I need to tell it.

Speaker 4 (30:12):
The way, and it comes across like, oh my god,
that is a challenge.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Are you saying that I'm not worthy of that? Do you?

Speaker 4 (30:17):
Are you saying because I have two kids and I'm divorced,
that you know someone's not going to value me and
see my worth?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
And I took it opposite, not about him being said
and all that.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
I took it as you're not good enough for me,
and you know if you go out there, no other
man is going to love you.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
But I made it clear that that is not that
I have female friends that tell me what it is
like out there, and I'm just I'm just that's the
lay of the land. Like you know, I have a
sister who's single. I'm like, that's the way of the land.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Everybody's different.

Speaker 4 (30:49):
And my experience, and yes, it's limited because I was
in a long term marriage up until in my thirties
and then I had a short stint in the dating
world here.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
But in my fortunate or naive.

Speaker 4 (30:59):
Experience, I've only happened to come across so and perhaps
the relationships weren't long enough to really understand, you know,
everybody's issues and stuff.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
But I can't say.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
That they were all bad. I wouldn't even say that
a lot of them were bad. So when you say
those take it in such a challenge, I'm like, I'll
go out and show you want to call you up
in a year's time ago.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Hey, Well, when you're talking about six months, like maybe
any idiot can keep it for three to six months,
it's like it's.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Not, well, sadly not not even there are people that
can't hold on three to six months.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
But you're right, yeah, it's like it's not you know,
or if you're not. You know, if you're going out
for the first thing, even for a year, you know
you can be the gentleman and blah blah blah, go
for three years. Let's see how that works out.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
You know.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
It's I think you know, look, and I don't.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Think it's about fighting for your value in this relationship,
like you either have a partner who sees your value.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
It's about being appreciated. Yeah, And that's why, right, That's
why I say. I say these things because I feel
I've said these things because I felt unappreciated. I felt
like I wasn't being valued because I know my value.
I know, like what It's.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
An interesting and i'll call the dysfunctional way of trying
to get that message across. Right, So the message is
that I'm not feeling valued and I feel like you
are either minimizing or dismissing what I bring to this relationship.
But actually what's being said is you're comparing yourself to
others and like, you know, this is better than.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
What you making yourself vulnerable. Yes, the other one is,
you know not.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
So all Mel was hearing and that was no one
else will have me, or no one else is as
good as you or whatever, rather than hearing, hey, I
don't feel bad.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
It's not Look I don't. I don't immediately look, you know,
af through my relationships, I always you know, lead with
I can be vulnerable, right, which was bullshit. I think
I think my vulnerability was very calculated.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
And maybe a surf. There's a surface soil, you know,
I'm okay with exactly.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
There's there's a there's a vulnerability, and then there's a floor, right,
And and I think with Mel, you know, I've I've
tried to sort of you know, dig under that, but
you know it's not natural for me to go there
and go, oh, you know, babe, I'm not feeling valued
like it's not you know, I've said that. But also

(33:20):
it doesn't come out that way.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, like somehow it translates into this other thing.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
Yeah, it like you know, I think you know, we
went away and we almost broke up, you know, just
about six months ago, and we were on the drive
back and I literally spent two hours venting at her
and sort of you know, telling her how I felt
in this relationship and you know, all that sort of stuff,

(33:46):
you know, and just I said last session, I mean
she took it while she goes you know, I've got
to pay more attention to how I make you feel
and all those things. So she took it really well.
But it was a rank and a rave on my
pack for literally two hours.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
And I guess what it indicates is that you had
been sitting on a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, which,
because I guess a two hour event is terrible for
the one having to vent. It means you've sat on
a lot. But it's also probably pretty difficult for the
other person to have that being smashed in their face,
you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
Especially for me. I'm not easy. I mean, I'm not. Yeah,
It's like there are people that you can take that
from and it's like, but then there are people like
me where it's like, you know, because it doesn't come
just verbally. There's an energy about it when we do it.
You know, to be in a in an enclosed space
with that energy can be quite.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
In front car.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
The car is the worst place for arguments, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
Oh my, the highway got nowhere to run?

Speaker 2 (34:45):
And how I mean it's interesting because if you know,
there is obviously even a difference of intensity in the
way both of you present, you know, so and it
doesn't mean that one has stronger feelings or less strong
feelings than the other. But of course, Ethan you present
more intensely in your character and the way you express yourself.
And then Melana, we touched a little bit on this
around how your upbringing kind of shaped and formed how

(35:07):
you express yourself and that sort of thing. But yeah,
there's quite a big difference in intensity in the way
you guys are. That's not a bad thing. Often we
need people to compliment to level us out. You know,
if we had two of the same it usually isn't great.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
No, I mean, I think she stepped up to the
challenge over the last three years.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
Yeah, I had to if I felt if I needed
to feel like.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
I was being heard.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
I did feel like I always used to say to him,
I don't want to shout, to shout and scream so
that you could hear me. I just want to be
able to say something subtly and then you can. But
I think he's getting a little bit better with that,
and I'm also getting a little bit better of not
being afraid of just I'm proud of her.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
So you've gotten a bit more direct and you've had
to read between the line a little bit more.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
There was a warning that I was doing something for mel.
I was dropping off one of the kids and I
was late, which never happens, but I actually slept on
my phone and I didn't hear the alignment. I was late,
and on the way back, I was on the phone
and she said, oh, look, you know it's disappointing. You know,

(36:12):
if if you can't do it, you know, I can
always organize someone else to do it. And I just
lost it and I was like, once, this is what
it's happened once, three years and it's happened once, and
I'm getting this, Oh, if you can't do it, So
it was.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Like this, it's the parachute. Immediately it was an attack.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
And I lost it. And then she just she just
went I mean, she just shut up, you motherfucker. I
just and I didn't say a word for fifteen minutes
until I got home. She was just going on and
I was like, Okay.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
I think when there's someone who never yells or ever swears,
when they finally do, everyone just shut it.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
It was so quiet, and.

Speaker 4 (37:02):
I think the conflict style and even sort of at
the beginning of this, when oh, I don't know, a
couple of months go now, I was just talking about
this pattern of conflict that we were having in the
aggression and the deflecting and then just running away sort of.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
I don't know how what had happened.

Speaker 4 (37:17):
But yeah, it's really it's it's working well. I think
Ethan's not been as angry.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
He's given me.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
Time to talk and so that if I feel heard,
then then then I feel free and not stressed to
keep harping on things. But then also something that I've
been working with my therapist is she asked me a
question of why is it so important for you to
be understood? Why is it so important that that Ethan,
you know, understands or here's your side of things?

Speaker 1 (37:44):
And I'll go, I don't know why.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
Maybe it's just from feeling not being understood from my
childhood or whatever it is. And she says, it's okay
if you guys have different perspectives, and so I don't
a lot of the time now I don't push my
side on him anymore in terms of you know, I
need you to understand this. Why can't you just get
this part of things? So I'll go, okay, well that's
your perspective and this is mine, and sometimes that sort

(38:08):
of alleviates the conflict and if we just go okay,
we'll leave it at that sort of thing. We don't
have to agree.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
When we return. Melanethan explore the ways that their value
systems align, but also where they have some friction.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Back in a tick, what what were you about to say?

Speaker 4 (38:34):
Well, I think the difference is and it's so minute.
It's it's obviously we both know that cheating and infidelity
is wrong and bad, and you know the.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Stealing is wrong.

Speaker 4 (38:42):
But I think there's subtle nuances in terms of you know,
what you think could be okay and acceptable coming into
a relationship that's different from me and I have much
more of a rigid structure. And yeah, potentially going back
to the homework, and why do I feel that way?
Why why do I have this sort of I have
to act a certain way and be respectable and be
a good girl, and not just me, I hold myself

(39:05):
to that sort of standard, but also to the people
that are in my closest circle.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Because and then I was thinking about that, why do
I do that?

Speaker 4 (39:12):
It's because, yes, my childhood made me think that, okay,
I have to be quote unquote perfect to be loved,
and if I'm not, then I won't be. But then
the people that are closest to me, I need them
to also be almost to this perfect standard or live
up to it. Otherwise if they're not, then they will
let me down or they will just wander off and

(39:34):
they won't be you know, morally correct or strange. And
I can't trust them to go off into the world
and do the right things, the things that I would do.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, And then does that feed in a little bit
to the judgment stuff. So if they're a proxy sort
of by proxy, they represent me, and if they are
not up to my standard perfection, you know, what I
need to be, then you know, then there will be
judgment potentially family, other friends.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah, oh yeah, very much a case of can we
let yeah?

Speaker 4 (40:04):
Sometimes okay, so I'm just going to briefing out real
friends from school x y Z again, we just your behavior,
behave yourself.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
Like most of the time he's engaging his charming people
like him. Sometimes he'll crack a crew joke, but people
just laugh at it, so it's okay.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
And I think this keeps coming back to that tolerating
difference thing and I think as couples, we have that
forming stage, which is where we're so excited to see
how similar we are. You know, when couples get together,
it's like, oh, I love doing this too, me too.
I'm like, God, I've always felt that way, and you know,
so there's this real like similar, similar, and our brains
are looking for everything that's similar. And then as a

(40:45):
relationship gets more established, we then start noticing all the ways.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
That we're different.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
And that's a bit of a storming kind of stage
where it's like, oh, this feels.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Unkind and for me, it's like, where have you been
the last fifty years to show me how to behave?

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (40:59):
Do you know like it feels that way somewhere because
it's like, you know, and again, you know my sound arrogant,
but it's like I'm yeah, I've lived and worked in
like four continents and I speak several languages, and I
haven't seemed to have issue with getting along with people

(41:22):
and making friends and being well received in any of
those places. And they've been very different across the spectrum,
you know, extreme different people's different, different places in life,
different you know, from from peasants to literally almost royalty aristocrats, right,

(41:44):
And so when someone comes in and tells that you're
behaving badly, it's like, dude.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, and how I approach that with curiosity rather than
who are you deter me? Yeah? Yeah, And look, that's
that's easy to say, harder to do. I feel like
most people would get a defensive And that's.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
Why the therapy, that's why helps me, because I am
I giving up my eye because it's like I've been
you know, people seem to like me a lot, and
then I meet the person that I love and she's
got all these issues with me. Then no one's ever
really brought up And.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
I think, and I don't know whether that's also part
of the one foot in, one foot out mail in
terms of yeah, these differences, are they differences that I
can tolerate? Are there differences that I can you know,
work with, or are they differences that make us incompatible?

Speaker 1 (42:40):
For me?

Speaker 4 (42:41):
Yeah, something I was constantly asking myself at the end
of the day. But when I narrowed it down to
sort of what were the deal breakers and what we're
sort of we can you compromise and work on and
it'll be okay, it came down to to be things
and it was just that the conflict style, which I'd
like to believe that it's you know, it's getting really
good resolved in good place, and then ultimately is the

(43:02):
other unfortunate issue.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
With Yeah, incident, should recall it the incident?

Speaker 4 (43:10):
Yeah, otherwise, you know, I was, like I said before,
I alluded to sort of being in that safe little
I'm doing like a cradle sort of thing with my hands,
like that little safety in it at that time, and
I was like, Okay, we have these issues, but that's okay,
we're going to work on it. But then that popped
up and dislodged things. So, yeah, everything was sort of
work manageable.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Until sort of this is and you're referring to the
episode of the sort of distrust when the message that
sort of blew everything up recently.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, absolutely, I guess.

Speaker 4 (43:41):
And then because of that sort of whole incident that
showed me more of that highlighted the conflict style a
little bit more.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
But through that he's worked through it so much more.

Speaker 4 (43:51):
And then there's a positive He's shown me how he's
been able to really put so much effort into just
change and.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
That just signifies put yourself.

Speaker 4 (44:05):
How it signifies how much like now, I have no
doubt that he really loves me, no doubt that he's
really you know, he would say that previously before, but
I always had that.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
He's going to disappoint me, he's going to do this,
he's going to that.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Yeah, so needless to say double down that you won't
find someone's right.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Okay, So that's important when you've said just there, So
it's that, you know, Yes, it's one thing for Ethan
to say that he loves me and that he you know,
he's going to always be here for me, blah blah.
But now I actually I feel it, I hear it,
I receive it, and I live that sort of as
my own experience. I believe that that's true. So what
keeps you where you're at the minute with the.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
One foot in, one foot out, it's the whole now
aligning it back to me, am I repeating past behaviors
of staying too long in a relationship where and I
know my boundary is broken, so trying to find that
that balance and not wanting to do that though it
is too different, totally two different relationship and situations. The

(45:08):
previous one I had no boundaries at all. I just
kept forgiving and forgiving this one. I grew some balls,
I put in some boundaries, he broke them. I walked away.
But now he's asking for a second chance. And that's
the part where I'm like, Okay, am I going to
be a doormat because I'm going to give him that
second chance? But is there an opportunity for me to

(45:28):
learn and grow and trust through through this and being
able to forgive And the moment throughout it all, he's
showing so much like effort and dedication that I can't
fault him in that.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
And if I.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
Look at the rest of the relationship and all the
good that we've had and everything that we've worked through,
I do.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Feel he's gonna hate saying this.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
I do feel that we owe it to the relationship
and ourselves to sort of give it a little bit
more time to see if I can actually forgive and
move forward with that and not feel like a push over.
And I think what we talked about last time about
the guild was really good. At what you said was
because I was like, well, now I have guilt, and
how am I going to let this go? But I

(46:15):
think when you put framed it back to well, I
think it was the eye position as well, and you
know that's his choice and what he's doing, and I
don't need to feel guilty as a result of that.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
So pretty much.

Speaker 4 (46:27):
Automatically after that session, I was like, Okay.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Okay, I can let go of the guilt baggage, but
I will still need.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
But the other is yeah, and I think it's a
mindset because I need to and I think I've made
a little step here, and just saying that last bit
out loud the mindset of okay, do I want to
just be all in and give it that effort to
see how it goes and see if I can forgive,
rather than saying, well, I don't know if I can.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
She can forgive, and I know she loves me. Look,
I don't want I don't want to sound like overly.
Look the way things have been in the last three
months have been great. Right. She doesn't want to go anywhere, right,
But there's something inside of her that is like, oh no, no, no,

(47:18):
but I can't. I can't let that go. I can't
because if I let but it's it's you know, I
don't agree with that because it's not like she was
like putting up, putting up, putting up like for three years,
because it was changed the entire three years. She knows
my ability, you know, to put my head down and
do what I need to do when I need to

(47:39):
do it. So it's not like all of a sudden
I'm want oh no, baby, I'll change. I'll change. It's
not it's not like that. But for me, I think
the most important part of this, the mechanics of this
is I'm not perfect. I will let her down. I
will make mistakes, and so far I haven't really, but

(48:04):
I'm not going to keep this up. It will be
some time where I forget something or and and I
can't have her going freaking.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Out going I knew it waiting for the one thing, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Exactly, because I'm only human and she needs to understand that.
It's like, you know, if she gets ninety percent, that's amazing,
and there's always going to be five to ten percent
that she's not going to get and we'll give her
the shits and and we might have an argument and
we might have a disagreement, but that's what a relationship

(48:40):
is about. Because if she's expecting this and this to perfection, right,
I'm not a robot, right, And if that's how I
have to live, that is not sustainable, and I'm going
to resent her and I'm going to end up hating
her for having to be on all the time, right,
which I'm not right, I'm not on all them.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Is that even what you want?

Speaker 3 (49:02):
Now?

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Is that what you're saying that there is no for error,
there's no Absolutely, that's not what I've been hearing.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
Yeah, I mean, like you said, nobody's perfect at the
end of the day, and if we had eight ninety,
then that's that's amazing. I think a lot of the time,
the conflict is still good in a relationship, so long
as we know how to resolve them and repair through them.
It's not one of those things where you just fight
and then you're holding onto it and then you fight again,
and it's just.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
Things in the first sort of six weeks, like like
the last three or four months, where there was something
small is like, see, I knew I couldn't be with it.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Yeah, yah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
I think that initial sort of that moment I was
on like I had no tether, I had no what's
the word tolerance, tolerance anymore for anything I was. I
was basically here because I was basically I didn't want
to be there. I had sort of broken up with him,
and he's talked my year off for three hours or so,
and then you know.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
He has a way like.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Because she's made a mistake, because she was making a mistake.
It's it's you know, I but if I felt, if
I really felt that she didn't love me and there
was nowhere to go and she didn't really appreciate me,
I'm like, if there's no relationship there, I'm not going
to be an idiot and waste my time. I know
what's valuable, I know what we have, and I'm not

(50:25):
going to let her walk off. She needs to realize
that within the relationship because if she walks off and
realizes in hindsight, that doesn't grow good for me. I've
lost her, We've lost it. It's done right. So for me, yes,
is it a control behavior? It is? Was it needed
at the time? I mean, hey, look, I don't know,

(50:47):
I got my way. It's you know, cost me to
have her stay and you know, to convince it a
stay kind of thing. But at the same time, you know,
I just needed her. I just need her to really.
I just I think maybe something that she hasn't realized
in the last three and a half years. Still when

(51:07):
she was in that moment of bliss that I had
no idea about that she told me about oh, you know,
four months ago I was feeling this way. I was
not great. I didn't know. But all through that time,
I still don't think that she gets it.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
I guess the thing and the issue here, though, Ethan,
is that we can't force another person to get it. No, no, no,
And if they don't get it, that's the journey.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
I can do my best to persuade, right, and you know,
I'm pretty good at it, right, But then you know,
for her to come back and be and it'say, you know,
it's like a tactic or you know, golden tongue, you know,
salesperson blah blah blah. But it's like, it's it, don't
look at that, look at the result of that, Like

(51:55):
what am I doing? Like what is the results for
the greater good? It's like, look at look at like
in the end, look at your experience over the last
four months.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
And I guess, you know, Meloe, it's interesting to hear
your perspective on that, because obviously it sounded like yeah, Ethan,
was very persuasive and you know, wasn't taking no for
an answer, and that could be viewed in all different
types of ways, right, But I think what I'm most
interested in is how that was received and viewed by you,
because people can have all kinds of perspectives on that.

(52:25):
But you know what do you?

Speaker 4 (52:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
Look, the time that I broke up with him that
last time was much different from all the other times.
So I would I would tell him that I'm leaving
and we were fighting, I'm explaining talk.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
And just for hours on and this time.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
It was very quiet. It was very strategic. I'm not
saying anything because I know if I I tell him
or give him any hint, he will not let me leave.
I know that sounds really like not in that sort
of forcible way, but not. I had never feared for
myself or anything like that. So I didn't tell him
strategically this time because one I realized that there wasn't

(53:02):
anything else that I needed to say. My boundary were
clearly broken, and I knew that the more I engaged
in conversation with him is very easy for him to
pull me back in. And that's a me personality type.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
I guess.

Speaker 4 (53:14):
I don't know if it would be similar to other Yeah,
and it's very much him. He's very convincing. He can
be very convincing and charming when he wants to be.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
So I knew that. So I was like, I've got
a distance myself.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
I told him what I needed to really bluntly, abruptly,
and ended all forms of communication. And so that day
when he unexpectedly came into my house because he had
a key, and yeah, it took me by surprise. I
think there was Did I feel relief, I'm just sitting
back at the moment. No, I didn't feel relief. I

(53:45):
was sort of numb because I had turned on that switch,
that lever that said, you know, protection mode.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
I've got to cut it now.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
I have no more feelings because it's just going to
hurt the more feelings that you have. And so, yeah,
and we just spoke, and I suppose, you know, he
was really upset and I could see the feelings and
emotions and he's crying and he was devastated and it's
just trying to turn everything around and asking for another
another chance.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
If she would have said, like, no, off, you know,
there's a stage I'll just go fine, I've got nowhere
to go with this, right. Yeah, I just didn't feel.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
It was there, Okay, But did you feel it was there?
Like was there a time where you were like I
have I am like one hundred percent serious and I've
told this man to go or I'm not interested or
I'm completely done, and I actually want him to hear it,
and I actually want him to leave. I'm not gonna
be happy if he stayed.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
Like, I don't think we got there yet, because that's
the thing when he gets sat down, he got in
the house and he got in my ear and he
started talking and and so something I suppose it was
early in that morning as well, and so perhaps there
was a calming nature of it. We didn't get to
that stage where I was like, you need to leave.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
So I think this is why it's important to kind
of talk about these dynamics, because there's a lot of
nuance and power dynamics in a relationship and a lot
of background behind that.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
I've had my own therapist call you out on it. Yeah,
because I don't have I am very honest with both
sides when it comes to my therapy. So I'll say something,
I'll go I did this, and you know it will WinCE.
Then they'll say it comes from the anxiety, it comes
from the you know, self preservation and all that sort

(55:34):
of stuff.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
And I think it's important, Like this conversation is important
even in the sense of if we purely just demonize
any traits or characteristics and we don't actually work with
the people around, why are these behaviors happening? What is
behind it? How do I become aware and change those behaviors.
So it's not about going, oh, that's fine, well, yes,

(55:57):
you know, don't do that type of thing. But I
think if there's a relationship where there's enough emotional and
physical and spiritual and everything safety in there that the
two of you are willingly participating in, and that's why
I sort of it's got to be something that the
two of you openly are aware of and can communicate
between each other.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Never ever did I feel unsafe in the relationship.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
I've never been intimidating, right, So so.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Well, I mean I think that's for mel to say,
if you've been intimidated, well, that's.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Well, I've seen her like from her reactions, right, because
like when I've been when I've lost it and I've
gotten really loud and aggressive. She's lost it even more,
and I'm like the neighbors.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
You're like, now I'm scared. Yeah, but but do you
have you been intimidated? And this isn't about like I
think that.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
It can be. I think there was once that she
said she felt a little intimidated.

Speaker 4 (56:51):
Yeah, And I think it's an automatic instinct in me.
When I feel like he gets that sort of heated
and I feel a little bit of fear coming on,
then I realize and I shift, not realize, but probably
I knowingly shift my way, and I'm like just calming my.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Tone a little bit more, moving slowly and.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
Maybe stop packing or doing things isn't and just sitting
down and being a bit more strategic with so.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
Self preservation.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
Which is funny. I don't know why, because every time
it's happened and she's become more aggressive, I back off
right because I can't where's the next step? If we're
both like, Grah, where's the next step? Generally when we argue,
I'm I'm the one that backs down.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
Yeah, more so, And I don't like myself there when
I come to that stage where I'm like, Rah, like
I've literally screamed, and you can probably feel the blood
rushing to my face, and I'm like, who am I
won't but it quietens everything and he just kind of
he snaps out of it for a moment. But yeah,
I don't like that person that I become when it
gets to that.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
And that's what I mean when.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
It terms of sort of having conflict resolution styles. Would
be good just to talk calmly and listen and then
just resolve things rather than.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Which you've been saying has been working much better. Yeah,
he last few.

Speaker 4 (58:08):
Months really mindful about you know, when we have those
type of conversations. I don't know if he's biting his tongue,
were biting his knuckles, whatever he's doing on that.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
But in the beginning I was. I mean, I said
that to her. I said, look, you know, she goes, oh,
you know you haven't been agro itself, and I said,
I said, yeah, when I feel like, you know, I'm
about to have an aneurysm or heart attack, I know
that's the point that I just have to shut up
and listen. And my world is not right When she's
angry at me, I don't you know. I'm very connected

(58:39):
to her, and when she's when she's unsettled about me.
I'm very unsettled, you know. And I jokingly always used
to say that, you know, she scares the shit out
of me because when she's angry at me, like I'm,
I have I have a few response.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yes, So there's a difficulty in tolerating. Yeah, someone's anger
or someone my loved one's anger towards me feels.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
I only have that with one other person. Actually, no,
there's only there's only three people in my life that
I've experienced that fear when they're angry at me, and
that is my father, my sister, and now mel yep.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
And so these are your most you know, the most
emotionally intense relationships.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
That that My mom's the most emotionally intense. But she
can be angry at me and it doesn't have the
same doesn't doesn't have the same impact on me when
she's angry at me.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Because there less fear of her leaving you.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
There's less fear of her shutting me out, Yes, because
she'll never shut me out.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
That gives you the security, Right.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
Where's my dad and my I mean my dad, Why
don't I when he's angry he can he's like it
takes a long time. So for him to be angry
at me, he's very is very traumatic for me. My
sister can be angry at me and not talk to
me for months and and so she shuts away from me,
and that really impacts me. Mel is the same. When

(01:00:02):
Mel is angry at me, I have the same kind
of you know, just few response of you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
And I think that's an interesting one to have to
try and work with, because we do our partner has
to be allowed to be angry at us, and they
will be angry at us many many, many many more
times in our life, right, And it's almost like building
your resilience to Mel being angry at you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
And I expected to get over it a lot faster
than ready.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Okay, we're done, Now get over it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
Yeah, because I'm like I'll get angry and I'm over it.
I'll lose it and I'm over it in five ten minutes.
Whereas you know, something small in my eyes, Mel can
be like it'll affect her like three days later. I'm
like like seriously, like, yeah, what is.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
The We're on different times, Yeah, very very always processed differently.
I'm just aware of the time and we're going to
have to wrap up soon. But I guess where I'm
sort of wondering where this goes. I think Mel was saying,
you know, some important stuff there around you know, am
I able to forgive? And that's what you're looking at,

(01:01:07):
you know, a bit more time just kind of working
on things together before you can kind of say yes
or no. And then Ethan's going, I know you can forgive,
And I wonder if it is about forgiveness or more
around that boundary stuff where it's like, what will it
mean about me if I forgive? And then the fear

(01:01:28):
of what if I forgive and then he does something else?
So my thought was really around the deal breakers, right,
because essentially I don't think the fear is what if
I forgive and then you know, he does something ridiculously
annoying or he pisces me off. The fear is like
what if he does a deal breaker thing? And is
that around the two difference, the two different perspectives of like,

(01:01:52):
you know, what is okay and not okay to do?
Like I wonder if if there was some clarity around
like not every single deal breaker you can possibly think of,
but the more likely deal breakers that you're like, this
is what I feel like you need to be on
the same page about. So then if I feel like
there's a solid understanding of what isn't isn't okay in
this situation, in that situation, how we're expected to behave,

(01:02:13):
what is respectful, what's not, if that all felt clear
to you, I wonder if that think there's an understanding
between you about those things. I wonder if that would
help with the forgiveness piece, because I don't think it's
about forgiveness. I think it's more about fear.

Speaker 4 (01:02:28):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right around that, and it is all
about sort of whether or not our values or morals
or whatever sort of align with that and me not
really understanding if it really does, and also not wanting
to whilst it would be good and ideally in a
perfect world to have that manuscript of you know, what
are the deal breakers where you can go and not

(01:02:49):
go in sort of it's nothing's ever black and white,
and it's not fluid, and.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
I just have to.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
I just have to trust yet it is flood. I
just have to trust in the end of the day
that he would make the right decisions. And that's where
I don't trust because previous and it wasn't a black
and white thing. It was quite Yeah, so that's my
concern and I don't want to have to write out
that manuscript. And we've had this conversation many times in

(01:03:19):
terms of how can we get to a page where
I feel comfortable, and you know, it came the topic
about transparency came up.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
So it's really about you.

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):
Know, we can't predict what's going to happen out there,
but if something does, look I'm going to bring it
to you. I'm going to have a conversation, see what
your thoughts are and all that, and that would be good,
that would be ideally amazing. And we said about that
as well. But I think, you know, the transparency had
the opportunity to show me some transparent moments and I
felt that down by that. So he's hoping that he

(01:03:51):
understands what transparency means now as well.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
So that yeah, it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Yeah, And I get what you're saying that it's nuanced.
So even if you felt like you were in agreement
about behaviors and respect and appropriate blah blah, that there
is still nu once things. Yeah, and I think if
we zoom out, that would have to be the case
in any relationship, right, and that so then there's part

(01:04:18):
of that. What is it about accepting that uncertainty that
locks me because it sort of blocks you from being
able to go two feet in? Is the uncertainty piece
which is an unwinnable game, right, I can never be
certain that my partner is not going to so I
do something that's going to really, yeah, really hurt me

(01:04:42):
or any of that. But so the bridge for that
is the transparency.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
I think.

Speaker 4 (01:04:47):
So the bridge for that is the transparency. And I
think the bridge for that is for me to learn
to trust and be okay with not having oversight about everything.
And even if I don't have transparency, then I have
to trust that eventually And this is where I have
to let the trust in perhaps a.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
High power of the universe or whatever what.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
Is meant for me to realize will come to me.
I think even with those other situations, I wasn't actively
looking for it or anything like that. There's sort of
I think, if if anything is going to happen, it's
going to reveal itself eventually. And when and if that happens,
I have to trust myself to know that this is
my I position and this has gone beyond it or

(01:05:31):
it's still within it, and I can move forward or
I can't, And I have to trust that when and
if that happens, I will make the right decision.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
That I think is the biggest piece there is. Because
I was going to ask you whether you trust yourself
to leave if something else happened, because I don't know
if you really trust yourself to leave.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Yeah, that's such.

Speaker 4 (01:05:52):
I don't think I've really trusted myself to make many decisions.
It's not in this relation and other relationships. Always doubting myself.
That's why I lent sort you know, therapy work as well,
just to sort of understand myself a bit more. But
I feel like I am a little bit stronger in that,
and I yes, I would have to say that if
something were to happen again, that was an absolute deal break. Yeah,

(01:06:16):
you know, not just a little stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Yeah, I really.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Appreciate the two of you being so honest and being
so transparent, if we use the word from the session,
but about some really difficult things that just complex things
that go on in relationships. And you're definitely not alone
out there that this would be stuff that so many
people would have threads of all the stuff you talked

(01:06:41):
about in some way, shape or form in their relationships.
So yeah, but it is a lot of Yeah, but
it's a lot of stuff that people probably don't talk about,
or don't want to talk about, or feel that it's
such a shame or there's something wrong in my relationship.
And yeah, no, I really appreciate both of you trusting
me in this process as well.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
After the session, I'm surprisingly feeling a little bit more
upbeat than the previous session. I have to say, I
feel like there is a little bit more clarity moving forward. Initially,
when I reached out to have these sessions, I was
very torn in terms of which direction I wanted to
go in. So yeah, al a b a bit more clarity.
Whilst it's not, you know, one hundred percent clear, I

(01:07:31):
think there's next steps and there's still some time to
give and invest in this relationship. What I think is
up next for us, yeah, is to potentially continue investing
in this relationship a little bit more through therapy work
as well. I think not that I can set a
time limit in anything, but I i'd like to see

(01:07:53):
another maybe three months, cause I think we touch base
on it. It's been three months so far and another
three months maybe s good six months is to really
solidify whether uh, you know, a behavior has really changed
or not.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
So okay, so posed session feeling well? Same? Was last
time really really good? I like Sarah. We got a
lot of good stuffact. I think Mel had a good
chance to express some of the things she needed to express.

(01:08:28):
I mean, I'd like to continue seeing Sarah, so hopefully
we'll do that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
It was really interesting to see the progress between the
first and second session with Ethan and Mel. While there
wasn't a linear change that we can easily pinpoint, I
think what's coming out, and this is very common, is
like there is a lot of layers and complexity to
this relationship culturally, emotionally, their backgrounds, their histories, their previous relationships,

(01:09:04):
and how all of those layers we're kind of attaching
on different ones from one session to the next, and
I think that is really where we start to see
a bit more of the context behind the issues that
they face. So I think that's more what stood out
to me as the progress. And there was obviously some

(01:09:24):
insights and some reflections that they both did really well
around their eye positions, around their particular patterns and blocks
in their behaviors, such as Mel's realization around how the
fear of disappointment is one of the biggest blocks to
her being able to trust. Another point that I think

(01:09:46):
is important to touch on that came out of this
session was the discussion around power dynamics that was raised
between Ethan and Mel around some of these situations that
they found themselves in in this relationship. I think that
there is a lot more information available to people about
power dynamics and the a lot of terms that people

(01:10:08):
are becoming more and more familiar with, which I think
is fantastic, and it can give people a real insight
and understanding into what's going on in their relationship or
how they're being treated, or different behaviors they're experiencing their
partner or family members portray They were very open and
transparent about these behaviors and issues in the relationship, and

(01:10:30):
I think that that's really great to hear and see
because a lot of people would not own up to it,
and a lot of people would not feel comfortable to
even share that with their therapists. This is why We
Fight was created by Nama Brown and Eliza Sormon Nilsen.

(01:10:51):
The Executive producer is Nama Brown. Our studio engineer is
Lou Hill. Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing
and sound designed by Jacob Brown. Additional production support from
Leopaulgis and Coco Levine. Our casting you said was Lisa Storer.
If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or

(01:11:12):
if you just feel like you need a bit of help,
there are links in our show notes to resources available
to you right now, as well as how to connect
with my practice motivated minds. If you'd like to apply
to beyond the next season of This Is Why We Fight,
there's a link to the application in our show notes too.
I'm Sarah Bays. Thanks for listening.