Jess & David [Part 2 of 2]: Is There Actually Room for Jess in David’s Life?

Their homework was simple: go to an event together and practise building trust. But it doesn't go to plan. In this session, Jess & David's attempt to reconnect spirals into conflict. It's a session that explores how the attempt to fix things sometimes makes them worse; and how when someone shares their hurt, resolution doesn't begin with explaining... but truly listening.

Listen to the first part of Jess & David's session here.

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
• Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

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• Host: Sarah Bays
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.
This podcast was recorded on Welcome Back to This is
Why we fight, real people, real problems, Real Therapy. My

(00:20):
name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over
a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.
This is part two of my sessions with Jess and David,
who were trying to improve the levels of trust and
safety that Jess fills with David, both in social situations
and within the parameters of their relationship. The homework I

(00:42):
assigned them was for David to reflect on different ways
he can incorporate Jess into his life so that trust
and security can be built, and for Jess to think
about alternative strategies at social events that can prevent her
from defaulting to leaving and isolating if she starts to
feel uncomfortable. If you haven't listened to the first session yet,
go back and start there. Let's jump back in. Here's

(01:04):
Jess and David. Jess and David, It's good to see
you guys again.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Hello.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm interested to hear how things have been over this
last week and how did anyone experience the homework. How
did everything go with the homework?

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Well, we did a bit of a walk in a way. Yeah,
it's been it's been a little bit. There's been some
touching moments, but there's been some I think some good
things we've done as well.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah. So Dave had this event on Friday night that
he'd been invited to, so he thought that was a
good opportunity to do his homework and he invited me
along with him, and he said that we would stay
until ten o'clock. So I had it in my head, Okay,

(01:57):
we're going to get there. So it's nervous as I am,
and everything I can handle until ten o'clock.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
However it went for a lot longer. It was a
nice enough event.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
Can I just just clarify something of it, because I
think you asked me what time had finish and I
looked at the Facebook on the Facebook page said ten o'clock.
So that's what I sort of said, and I, you know,
as a look it said that finished at ten. I
know it usually you know, if it's if it's that
sort of fun, that might be a bit longer.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
But that's what Facebook said.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
I said, that basically, so I had psyched myself up,
so I had enough spoons to last until ten o'clock. Yeah,
and you know, ten o'clock came and went and we
didn't leave, and so I could see that he was
having a good time, he was relaxed. I didn't know
anybody there. They were friendly, but I didn't know anyone,

(02:52):
and I'm not someone who's confident to go up and
approach other people. So I'm just standing there, you know,
sort of you know, bopping my head away to the
music and everything. And I noticed that he went and
got some food, and so I said to him, Ah,
it's you know, it's like quarter to eleven, and he goes, oh, okay,

(03:15):
do you mind if I finished this first and then
we can go, And yeah, yeah, yeah, no, of course
that's fine, because at that point, another couple of minutes
wasn't really going to matter. But then he finished it
and then he wanted went and got a drink afterwards,
and that's when I realized he wants to stay, but

(03:38):
I can't. I know that I won't be able to
cope because this is already a huge thing for me
just to be there with these people. I don't know,
and it's already longer than he said it would be.
So I left because I couldn't stay any more. Yeah,

(04:01):
I said to him, I'm going to go.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Okay, So so you went and found David and said
what exactly did you say? Did you say I'm going
to go? Or did you say why?

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Remember exactly? Do you remember? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean no, she didn't leave straight away?
Like what happened?

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Is? I mean she to start with? She asked me.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
And it's true that, like, you know, it's a bit
of my fault in a way. Okay, I was having
some food and I saw my friends I think, I mean,
you knew one of my friends there. I was chatting
to him and and you know, he met Jets a
few times. So I actually felt that was good because
at least I just knew that person and maybe a

(04:42):
couple more. But I I yeah, so I was feeling
comfortable a little bit more, you know, like me too,
I tend to be a bit you know, it's difficult
if I don't know anyone.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Obviously, it's sort of key, It's true.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
But and here I don't know very many people either,
to be honest, but I I knew and my friend
made me feel quite comfortable and welcome and everything, and
I sort of had a yeah, some food, and I
then decide, because I'm having a chat, I'm enjoying the music,
and I have a drink and I at that time,
I must admit I the fact that Jess might be

(05:15):
a bit stressed out sort of went off my mind.
I didn't really think properly. So then I could see
that she was tense. And she said, okay, look, you know,
I can't exactly, but she said something like, look, I
can see you enjoying yourself. I can see you having
a good time. I need to go.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
I need to go.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
And I said, oh wait, oh, you know, like I
sort of realized though, yeah, that's not right, and I said,
look I can. That's fine, I'll stop. I can, I can,
we can go. I can drive you, no problem.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
He didn't say that first, you said he would, you know?
I said. He said what are you doing? And I said,
I'm going home? And I said I'll get a taxi.
But I don't have any of the apps or anything
on my Oh yeah you do. So he ordered a
taxi for me.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
No, no, no, no. The first time.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
I didn't know first I said, are you sure, and
I set up because I can vivie you. And then
she came back and said, no, I can see you
having a good time, and I want you to have
a good time, and you know, I don't want to
spoil it for you. I'm not having a good time.
I need to go home and please get a taxi.
So I did get a taxi, but it was not

(06:24):
something I wanted to do start with.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
I really did want to go with her.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
I didn't realize that.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah, so that's that's what happened.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
I asked twice, and twice she said, no, I see
you having a good time. And you know, I was wondering,
is it that she's really upset or is it that
she just wants me to have a good time and
she doesn't want to, you know, she if she's not
having if she's not enjoying herself, then yeah, you know,
like it's fine, I understand, but I I would prefer

(06:52):
to be with her.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
I did try to make that very clear.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
But this is a really great example. This is fantastic
because the homework isn't set to be done perfectly with
no errors, like you know, real life things are going
to happen, and so this is actually really wonderful. So
what's happened. You've invited Jess to an event. Obviously that's
come with a bit of anxiety on Jess's side of things.
You've gone in there, did your best. Then things started

(07:19):
getting a bit wonky when the time isn't adhered to
the sort of like going home time.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
Yeah, and I didn't realize how important it was, to
be honest, I should have been a bit more careful
and I wasn't.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
So we had a chat about that type.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, I think that if I understood how like how
really difficult it was for her, and she tells me,
I would be like a lot more. But I don't
want to say it's a fullt I'm saying also, I
should have picked it up that like having that extra
tink was not on like for my path. So but
at the same time, I have a good time. You know,
I'm just letting myself you know, I lose, you know,

(07:54):
I just.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, I think it's an easy thing to happen. I
guess it's where and this is back to that communittion piece,
isn't it. So there's and so I'm really happy to
hear Jess that you didn't just leave great, you went fantastic.
You went up to David, you said that you were
going to go home. I think where things wires got
crossed here is probably something around was their guilt around

(08:18):
the idea of making him I'm going to say making
in quotations now, making him come home with me when
he looks like he's having fun.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
I think you're right, And there were there were many
things that were going on, so for me, it was
very obviously our first exercise and trust in a social situation.
And the fact that he didn't notice that it was
well after ten o'clock said to me a couple of things.

(08:47):
It said that he was having a really good time
and wanted to stay longer, which is nice and that's fine,
But it also said that he was not really thinking
of me and the process, and he was no longer
there as like I wasn't on his mind anymore and

(09:09):
making sure that this night went well, which for me
was the whole point in going, was actually not a
consideration of his at that time, because he was just
happy at the event and no longer thinking about our
purpose for being there together as a couple, and that

(09:31):
really upset me because to me, I was being very
direct to him when I said to him, hey, it's
nearly eleven o'clock. And then to me, he understood what
I meant when he then said, I'll finish up my
dinner and then we can go. But then we didn't go.
Then he went and got a drink, and I'm like,
you know what, I know, I don't have the capacity

(09:53):
to stay any longer. I'm just going to have to leave.
So I said that to him. Retrospect, we talked about
it a little bit since. Oh, by the way, we
did go home together and we didn't fight, so that
was fantastic, true, and that was because of you, so
thank you.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Oh well, i'm going to say, I'm going to say
it was because of YouTube, but we.

Speaker 5 (10:15):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Thank you, David. Don't give me the full credit.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, But then we talked afterwards, and I'm trying to
say to him, like, if I know that I can
trust you in these situations to have my back and
have our back as a couple, then it's not going
to matter so much. And I don't mind if he says, look,

(10:39):
I've got this event, I'd love you to join me,
but to be honest, I don't know what time it's
going to finish, then that's okay to me because i've
then then it's on me to decide if I can
go or not go. And I've said to him, if
I decide to go, then you need to accept that.

(11:00):
If I need to leave, then that's going to be
okay with you as well. But I will talk to
you before I leave. I won't just sneak out. But
if he says to me, I've got an event and
it'll go to it could go till eleven o'clock, then
I'm going to believe it goes to eleven, and I'm
going to prepare myself mentally to be able to last

(11:21):
that long. And if he decides he wants to stay longer,
he has to let me know, and he has to
be okay with me then leaving by myself, because I
don't want to be controlling or you know, you know,
taking him away from his fun or whatever. But I
do need to know that I can trust him, and

(11:42):
if he says we'll be done by this time, then
we are. But also I need to be able to
trust that he's going to be okay for me to leave.
If I need to and there's not going to be
any consequence.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
I can I answer that because there would be up
to no consequence if you're determinate like that and if
you are diact with me.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
The one thing was that.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
I feel I was direct though when I know, look.

Speaker 4 (12:06):
There was one thing that were I did something like
I went't hard on extra doing. I didn't realize the
level of Loongsi you do.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Well, that was going to be my question. So you
did directly? Just yes, you did directly say like, it's
ten forty five now. Is that so that's directly notifying
that we're forty five minutes later? But is it saying
how anxious you're feeling to me?

Speaker 2 (12:31):
I feel that that should be enough to give the
clue to him that I am, because I'm not going
to say, hey, I want to go, because to me,
that's rude because everyone around us is having a good time.
He's surrounded by his friends, and I don't want to
come across as controlling because really it's not about him staying.
It's about me not coping and needing support. But I

(12:53):
know that it doesn't always come across like that.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
So I think this is where we need to where
We talked a little bit last time about getting and
I think this is part of the preparation and planning
before these events of like if I'm feeling anxious, I'm
going to tap you on your shoulder twice, or you
know something, because I understand you don't want to be
sort of like, you know, interrupting conversations, and maybe there's
some things you don't want to say in front of everybody,
But I think there needs to be some type of

(13:16):
communication or language between you two, or you know, signals
between you two that can be like if I'm if
I'm really anxious and I need to support, I'm going
to squeeze your hand or I'm going to do X
y Z because yeah, because I'm feeling like there was
a misunderstanding around the level of anxiety that Jess was feeling,
and it kind of creates this sort of like, well

(13:39):
he knows and he's choosing not to to do anything
about it.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
It's not it's not it's not ready the case. So
it depends like and you are sorry. What I'm saying
is what you got there is exactly what's happening. I mean,
what what what happened for me is I heard so
you want to you want me to have a good time,
and you feel that you should be going away because
you're not having it, and I'm like, okay, well, in reality,
my first reaction was no, we should be going together.

(14:05):
But when I asked a second time, she said no,
I really wanted to have a good time. And I
felt that was it was clear.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
To me at that point that he didn't care about,
you know, the thing that we'd planned that is the
second a good time, and that was his priority.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
Then I already asked and I said, I think we
should be my PRIORTI was said that I wanted just
to have a good time.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Then what did you call a taxi?

Speaker 4 (14:26):
Because you asked me a second time. When I asked
the second time, he said no, I want to go home.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
And then I needed you to say that you want.

Speaker 4 (14:33):
To meet it you want to make I said, I
said that, so I said later on, yeah, yeah, I
called a taxi. And then I had a chat and
I realized how we upset, like she was really I
don't want to go come with me and everything. So
I then said no, and I can't sell the taxi.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
But it was.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
Like like I mean, it was almos I thought we
almost woke up, like not woke up, but you know
it was going to be a very really tense evening.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, And so I know that it feels like maybe
some of the stuff was you were saying Jess was direct,
but I'm just going to question how direct it was like,
and I think it make feel very direct from you.
But there are some things there that are sending mixed
messages and which isn't actually achieving your own goal, because
if your goal is to feel supported, and I get it,

(15:17):
there were elements where David let you down or it
didn't he didn't prioritize you and.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Then and he said you want to go on? And
you know, I didn't really hear that.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
I was like, it's urgent I should have and I
wasn't like, Okay, I was having my you know, chat
to my fans list music. So yeah, I wasn't completely
one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
I've got it.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, I think it's two sided, right, where David needed
to be more attuned to you and he needed to
be checking in with you more. And I was going
to suggest like there should be check ins throughout the night.
Were there check ins prior to this ten forty five
time of like, hey, Jess, how you know? Are you
doing okay? Do you want to pop outside? Can we
go somewhere quiet for a minute, or you know, just
there need to be some check ins, because then Jess

(15:57):
could have told you maybe half an hour an hour before,
like I'm okay, but I've only got about fifteen minutes
left in me, you know, like they need to be
some checking points. I need to take two minutes.

Speaker 4 (16:07):
There was something else that I didn't quite realize, saw
can I yes, yeah, yeah, because they I could maybe
add two yeah, or do you want to talk about it?

Speaker 3 (16:15):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
I mean it's it's like there was one of my
so basically the friend whose place it was invited me,
and I knew that it was going to be some
some good musicians there, and and I said, well that's
a good opportunity, okay, So I thought I knew it
would be very cool. It'd be some very nice people there.
So that's why I also I thought that was a good,

(16:36):
good opportnity to try that to have a very relaxed evening.
Didn't quite put very relaxing, but yeah, I mean i'd
like to have also of anyway, I am one thing
that actually that friend in particular, I introduced just to
him and it didn't like that was a while ago,

(16:59):
that was before before that event, and and he he
didn't really he said, he said hi and went away.
And I thought that was a bit, you know, I
woul't say it rude, but it was a bit sort
of dismissive or something. I didn't really think much more
of that, but I did notice there was something like
he was he wasn't very welcoming to Jess. And it

(17:19):
didn't stick really that much to Mamma. I didn't think
it would be like, you know what I mean, it happens.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
To me too.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
I'm like, okay, and then you see that guy again
and it's fine, you know, it's just like maybe I
don't know something happened. I don't know what, and and
the problem is it was his place.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
So just just told me, you told me. You can't
tell me what what what you felt?

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Okay. So when I had kind of met this guy,
Dave said, oh, this is you know, a good friend
of mine. The guy turned around. He said to me,
this is a good friend of mine. He said, this
is my girlfriend. The guy turned around, he you know,
the word high is a very short word. Right. This
guy didn't even finish saying word high before he stopped

(18:02):
looking at me and turned back around again. Wow, and
that is such a short word. That was like a
real you know, okay then right? Right, So Dave decides
that his house is a good place to take us
for the first little homework activity. I'm like, I can't
believe you would do that. So you're already feeling a

(18:24):
little bit uncomfortable about what you know, you're missing some
kind of you know. Well, I noticed they're like, why
why would you think this was a good idea?

Speaker 4 (18:33):
So I can answer that, and I sort of answered
that earlier. But the reason was I knew that master
the people in there are very findly, very cool and
usually that game.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Look, I'm sure they are. I'm sure there, and I'm
sure he's obviously you know, and.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
The music was gonna be accident and unusual. And for me,
the idea was actually yes, to have a relaxing evening,
and I didn't really.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
See that as the guy who okay, won't even say
hi to me?

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Well, was there a conversation about that in the In
the planning of this event, we had.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
No idea that this was going to be You didn't.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
So you didn't know that this was going to be
at his house until you got there.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, No, I know, I didn't look, I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Just like, why would you choose this place?

Speaker 4 (19:19):
This escalated so for me, I didn't realize it was
going to be I didn't think it was going to
be a problem.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
I know it was. It was like, you know, not
going the first time he met. No, I don't know
why it was.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Like it's right now, I just need him to be
not explaining why he did it and why he thought
it was okay, but I need him to be acknowledging
that I was hurt by that. So what I need
for him to be saying right now is something like,
you know what, I can see how that would have,
you know, made you how that might have made you
a little bit more upset or anxious, and you know

(19:54):
it probably wasn't the best choice. Yes, that's what I
need him to say right now.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
I can, I can, I can say that I didn't,
you know, I didn't think it was going to be
a problem.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
I didn't.

Speaker 4 (20:05):
I noticed there was a little something, but not enough
to realize it was going to be you know, it
would be a problem to have him invited to exactly
what you were saying.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, I was going to say, so say to say
to Jess, I guess this is yeah, So this is
where rationalizing and reasoning. There is space for that. It
is important for people to understand why we do things
that we do. But in that there's no validating so
and I think that's the key in the communication between
the two of you, is that if we summarize, Jess

(20:38):
felt not considered. She didn't think that you thought something
through and thought that how something might impact her, and
so then when she gets there, and that's an uncomfortable
environment for her to be.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
In, which I continued staying in for a while. Anyway.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, yeah. After this break, David, Jess and I discussed
the difference between validating someone else's experience versus explaining our
own motivations. Something that every couple encounters at some point
stay with us, and then there's a lack of validation

(21:18):
around why that might have been difficult or uncomfortable. Can
you sort of are you able to say to Jess
what your understanding is of how that might have felt
like for her? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (21:31):
No, I can I can I can see it. I can.

Speaker 4 (21:33):
I can see it now. I would say that I'm
sorry about it, but I you know, I don't know.
I didn't really.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
I'm gonna pause you there because you're about to go
back into justify. It's hard not to.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
I'm just trying to see, yeah, you know how I thought, yes,
and and where I'm you know, obviously I missed the
point that that that interaction first interaction was not great.
I was like, do you know when you pick up
some things but it's not sticking in your mind, you know,
it's just something like that.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
The whole thing was terrible.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
I just will he that I'm going to.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
Do something like that again, and it might happen again,
and I don't want it to happen.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
And all he needs to do is just say, do
you know what I made a mistake. I'm sorry. Oh yeah,
I did all he needed but he needs but he
needs to not do all that other stuff as well.
Talk about that later. In that moment, I'm feeling upset,
I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling vulnerable, and all I'm getting
is him explaining why he did it and why it's

(22:32):
justified or whatever. Miami Miami was feeling like he doesn't
care that I got hurt. He needs more that you
understand you need to do it.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
No, No, I care that you are comfortable. I care
that we have a good time to get That's what
I care about.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
And I did try. I thought it would be a
good actually thought it would be a good place.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Even right now. So I'm I'm just going to try
and stop you because I can see it's like it's default,
this default reaction to try and go into what your
thought process was, and every time you do that, you're
missing Jess. Like what Jess is saying is missing is
going right over your head because you're trying to be
understood and you're trying to get her to understand why

(23:15):
and how and whatever. When it sounds like Jess does understand, like,
it doesn't sound to me like Jess is like, oh,
he's purposely picked somewhere that I would be uncomfortable or
he didn't even give a shit and he just did.
But that's not what I'm hearing. I'm just hearing her
say that I'm hurt or I felt uncomfortable and I
felt confused or angry about why you would have chosen

(23:35):
this but I just need to hear that you get
how I feel.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
I think you've got both. I think he's also angry.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
But.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
I'm not. What takes me angry is when he continues
to defend himself and explain why he did things after
you've said all I need for you to do right now,
it's just, you know, just say you know, I'm really sorry,
because the fact that I'm hurt should be important to him,

(24:04):
and as my partner, he should want me to not
be hurt, of course, and then so his priority should be,
you know, like giving me a hug or something and
just listening to me, and then afterwards we can explain things.
Because if I felt that he had done something, I
would be saying it, yeah, okay, and like you said this,
and you wouldn't want to stand there. There's nothing I

(24:24):
know that he does things without necessarily thinking, and you
know what, to be honest, a lot of guys do
because it might not be as important to them as
it is perhaps to a lot of women. And I
we're not supposed to say that kind of thing, but
it's true and my experience and I just need him
to acknowledge that at that moment, I'm vulnerable. I need

(24:46):
to be made to feel safe, and he has an
opportunity to make me feel safe by just holding me
and saying, you know what, just I'm so sorry that
you feel that way, or you know.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, what can I do to make you more comfortable?
But is there something that we can and do that
will feel a bit better?

Speaker 2 (25:01):
And then that's going to actually make me trust him
more and make me feel safer and make us stronger.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
So if I knew all that at the time, I
would definitely and I'm sorry. So I am I am,
I am sorry at it because I some you know,
I could have I'm just what I'm wondering, could have
avoided it. Okay, that's what I'm trying to see because
I want to avoid that problem.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Okay, I don't. It's not what I want. I wanted
to be.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, So if we think about future planning and so.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
That's that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that way, how
can we fix that? Can we fix that? Can I
fix that? And I want to say yes, of course,
I'm sorry. I don't want to feel uncomfortable, absolutely want
to be and at.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
The same time to be going out and worrying the
whole time. Yeah, exactly, That's why I said, I want
him to be having a good time.

Speaker 4 (25:46):
So I need, I need, I need really that you
are clear, I really do, And I'm sorry, it's just
maybe it's a man thing again.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Okay, fine, I'm fine with being sexist on that form.
I'm fine with that.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
Look.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
Look, David, you know that that guy he didn't you know,
I conlletge me. That's time, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Do you remember that?

Speaker 4 (26:04):
And yeah, maybe you are. I felt it was a
bit weird. Well, you know, why do you bring me here?
And you can be upset, like why do you bring
me here? I'm like, oh, sorry, you know, likerontational.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
It's good, it's good.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, and so and so let's pause here for a
second because I think this leads us back to that
feeling of I thought I was being direct, and I
think what you think is direct and what David thinks
is direct are two different things. And I get it
that it's not your personality type to be very confrontational
in it and you know, sort of direct in that manner,
So there will be a need for both of you

(26:39):
to do and I think this is where that communication
thing comes in, more check ins, more clarity seeking between
each other. So you know, in the planning of an event,
maybe maybe in knowing that Jess has some anxiety around
social gatherings, you go, I should probably run most of
the details by her. Hey, this is the event, it's
going to be at this locate, this person's house, this time,

(27:02):
blah blah blah. And then even that kind of checking
of like I know that your social battery dies quicker
than mine. How long do you reckon you'll have in
you okay? This on cool? Well I might want to
stay longer, I might not, or you know, I think
there just needs to be a lot more discussion before
going to an event, so it's like really clear. Then
have your signals in place. If you're anxious, babe, can

(27:22):
you please just wink at me and I'll know that's
what it is. Whatever you know, but come up with
a little plan, and then have check in throughout the night,
even if it's you know, it's every hour or every half,
depending how anxious you are. I feel like, oh, I'm
pretty comfortable. You're checking on two hours, checking in on
me in two hours, and then you know, off we
go talking to people here and there, It doesn't have
to be a chore or like a really vigilant exercise.

(27:44):
It's just something that we naturally do. We circle back,
we check in with each other, we both fine, yeah, good, right,
we go off again. You know. So I think it's
really just trying to put the relationship at the forefront,
and then everything else goes around it. So I'm always
to be checking back.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
I think so too. And I've said to him, look,
you know, the more we try this and it's successful,
then I know that I'll feel more comfortable and I'll
be able to last longer and stuff. But he also
needs to know that while that's happening, while that process
is getting to that point that if I do need
to leave, he needs to not be upset by that. Yes, yeah,

(28:24):
and not take it personally because it's me protecting myself. Also,
he needs to know that, like if he says to me,
you know, we're going to be out, it's going to
be over. It's an afternoon thing, it's going to be
over by six o'clock, and he, you know, wants to

(28:45):
stay longer, then he needs to let me know that
he wants to stay longer.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
And yeah, So it's just a conversation of like, hey,
actually I don't want to go home yet, do you
want to go? If you do, I can call you
a taxi. If you're happy to stay, can we do
another half hour? Yeah? So it's all again a very
simple say.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
I'm I'm going to be okay with that. I don't mind, Yeah,
on my own going home by myself.

Speaker 4 (29:06):
If you don't mind if you go home by yourself.
And then I'll say.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
If he gets home and he's happy, I get the
benefits of that when he arrives, So absolutely I don't
mind what he does to make him sulf ya as
long as it comes back to me afterwards.

Speaker 5 (29:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
Yeah, so yeah, But unfortunately for the last that that
particular event there, I did say, okay, you know so,
so you absolutely want a taxi, So I got a
taxi and and then I said, well then i'll come
later and I'll visit.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
No, no, I don't want you to come home.

Speaker 4 (29:33):
So I think it wasn't very welcoming off handley or
you can, I can, I can't go there and you
won't be upset yet, well I was upset because.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Obviously projected by that.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
That's it. So it's not the same thing here.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yes, so that was a different You're right, absolutely right, David,
that was a different And this is where I wanted
to kind of talk about the mixed messages that were
going on, because obviously, yes, it sounds like you were
you were hurt and and you know, I would say
maybe even angry or frustrated because you felt like he
hadn't considered and he had He's now getting a drink,
He's no. I mean, I would be annoy you know.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
If I thought been tossed aside, and you know, the
nine was now all about him having a good time
at the event and not about us at all.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
And if that's how you feel, it makes sense that
we're not saying that that's true. Yeah, Devid, We're not
saying that's what you're doing. We're saying that's what in
Jess's mind, that's what she was experiencing. And so then
when she came up to say I'm going to go home,
it sounds like there was a bit of passive aggressiveness happening.
So when he tries to meet you and go, oh, okay,
well I'll go with you, at this stage, you're like no,

(30:34):
because you're upset with him. You know, so there's this
push pul thing happening. You want him to come with you,
you want him to be supportive, but when he tries
to come, then you're like, no, no, you're having fun here,
you just stay. So you see how there's that push
pull thing happening, which then inevitably makes it very hard.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
That's like rejection trauma or something like that. Like if
someone shows you a sign that they don't want to
be with you, then.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
You go into just lace to go with that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:01):
Yeah, and it wasn't the case I wanted to be
to be and we did end up going home together.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
I'm very glad as well. We're still talking.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
I think the whole things we.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Cleaned our tape for anything.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
Look, I think the whole thing was actually really good.
I really do. I think the whole exercise there were
a lot of really good positive things in there. And
like with anything, there are a few bumps to iron out, right.
So we're just trying to iron out the bumps for
the next one. And this is going to be a practice, practice, practice.
We're going to do more events. We're going to do
some things well, we're going to do some things not well.
That the goal is that we can then exactly as

(31:34):
you did. We can talk about it, work it through,
come up with new little tweaks for the next time,
and do it again, and it will get easier and
easier as you get into a routine of Okay, this works.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
That's what I'm thinking.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Do I feel overall? It was actually really good because
we tried and we figured out some things that worked
and some things that didn't work. But importantly we're able
to look at those things that didn't work and try
and figure out how we could address next time. And
that's what we're still going through with you.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
It gives you that communication, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
If I was to summarize what I take out of,
if it was the main things for each of you
to work on, I think for David it is attunement,
so checking being attuned to how Jess is feeling and
what's going on, and that is easiest done by regular
check in and then on. So if that would be

(32:32):
sort of my goal for you, And then on Jess's side,
it is how do I be? And it may not
even be directed, it might be transparent. I don't know
what the word is, but trying to be a bit
more transparent about what I need once, because I think
you get escalated or you feel rejected or something happens,
and then it's then your messages get a bit mixed

(32:54):
because of that. You know, It's like that sort of
avoidant attachment thing comes in and I'm just like, oh,
to protect myself, And when I do that, I'm not
actually communicating what I need. I'm communicating out of fear. Now. Yeah,
So I think that would be really sort of going,
what do I actually want? And if I want him
to come home with me, I can just ask and

(33:16):
that's not forcing him, that's not controlling. It could even
be like, I'm really upset that you've kept in your
dinner and then you had a drink. It makes me
feel like you don't care about me at all, or
that you don't care that I'm so anxious here and
I've made such an effort. I really want you to
come home, but I don't want to force you. And
then he's a grown man. If he says no, no, no,
look yep I've fucked up here, or yep I will

(33:37):
come home with you, allow it, because then you're doing
the no no, but you're having fun, so you're blocking
your own you're blocking yourself from what you want.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, because you're out of fear.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, and which is you know, very common, but keeping
aware of that process and going, oh, am I doing
that block? If I got that block up again? Or
am I am I letting? Am I letting David actually
come home or support me when I actually need that?
Or am I saying no out of the fear again?
Because if he says, look, I really don't want to come,

(34:09):
we just need to trust that if he doesn't want
to come, that he won't come. And if he does
want to, you haven't forced him, yeah, you know, you
haven't put a gun to his head and said you
got to come home with me. Sometimes we do things
we don't really want to do for our partner and
that's okay. He might want to stay out, but he
knows that, you know what, the best thing for Jesse
is that I come home with her, And all right,

(34:30):
I'll do that, even though I was having fun. That's fine.
You do things I'm sure for David that you don't
really want to do it. For example, they're socializing.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
You know, it's actually important that I think it's very important.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Let him do things he doesn't want to do it.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
I think I want her to realize that, Yes, of
course I was having fun, but for me, it was
more important I come with you, especially if you don't
feel good.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
And that's what you want, right, Yeah, that he comes
with you when you don't feel good, even if he
might be having a great time. Okay, Yes, we don't
want to him to miss out on fun. But at
the same time, it's important for your relationship to build
that trust is to see him come home with you
even when he's having a great time.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
That means I think, yeah, I mean, I think like
I honestly don't mind if he stays out by himself. Sometimes. Sure,
but if he's promised me going to be out until
a certain time and then he's you know, said that
he would just finish his general and come home with me,
and he clearly wants to stay, and that that's really hurtful.

(35:29):
But if he's you know, having a good time and
he wants to stay, and he hasn't made any promises
or whatever, or or you know, changed his mind and
let me know, then you know, I don't I don't
mind if he stays out longer, you know, Like I said,
I do, I really do want him to have a
good time. I really do want him to be happy.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
But and I think that's been a.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, that's not okay.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
I mean eventually, I want us to have a good
time amongst us friends.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
That's that's really what I want as well. Okay, I
don't want to just say, oh my god, it's ten o'clock,
you know. I mean, you know, like I can understand,
but I'm not exactly.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, but this is what you guys are working towards, right, Like,
once this system, you know, improves a little bit and
gets a few tweaks here and there, it should become
easier to go out together and be able to check
in and trust that we can believe the other. If
they say they're fine, they're fine. If they say I'm
okay to stay that, then they mean it.

Speaker 4 (36:29):
And yeah, and you know, we did other things, so
tell me the other stuff.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
Yeah, we've also so look, you know, I we went
together to some festival. Yeah, and yeah, and caught up
with Jesse's friend as well and their friends. There's also
a bunch of people and and I thought it was great.
I loved it, really had a good time.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
I'll like you.

Speaker 4 (36:54):
When I caught up with a friend of mine as well,
so just you know, met him as well. I haven't
met him so I haven't seen him for a long time,
and I surprise for me as well. And what we did.
We did something as well later on that that weekend
as well, I had a little, a little get together
with a bunch of musicians and we did a little

(37:17):
a little jam and.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yeah, she came as well for that. So we did
a lot of stuff.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
Together with friends and so we talked a lot about
the area where there was a problem, but everything else
I thought went really well and I enjoyed my time.
So and I mean, yeah, yeah, I don't know what
you thought of it.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Anyway, Jess, what did you think?

Speaker 2 (37:39):
I thought the rest of it was okay, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, okay, you is there something you're not saying? I
just not.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, it's just that that whole thing about when I
need him just to just acknowledge if he's done something
and I'm not I'm not saying he intended to do it.
I'm saying it happened, and I just need him to
And this happens to so many different things in our lives.

(38:09):
If he does something that upsets me, he never holds
me first. He never apologizes or just gives me a
hug and say, you know, Cisy can understand how I'm feeling.
It's always him straight to explaining I didn't mean this,
I'm not a you know, I'm not a monster, I'm
not a bully, I'm not you know where to defending himself?

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Do you have I?

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Can I start?

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Can? Can I start with just checking what Jess believes,
where that comes from. What story do you have in
your head of why he does that?

Speaker 2 (38:43):
I think he has had abandonment issues in the past
and people treating him unfairly in the past. And I'm
so careful about how I say things because I know
that it's going to be taken as a criticism or
some kind of attack on his actions. But I need

(39:09):
to be heard as well, and I need to be
safe in the relationship to be able to say, you know,
I hate this her and have him actually care about
that more than so.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
Like I'd like to say something though, because I can see,
you know, like in what in hindsight that yes it
I should have picked up And mind you, I don't
know if I could have, because I don't even know
if she knew the name of that friend, the person
who didn't acknowledge her well you or did not welcome

(39:44):
her the first time, whose party it was.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
I don't know if I could have. I mean, if
I could problem solving.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yeah, what you're doing right now problem solving, But that's
not what Jess wants. Do you see how that's not
what she's asking.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
I do recognize, I can see, I can feel how
like it would be really uncomfortable and sorry about that.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Also, I was trying to wonder.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
I was saying, he's a bad saying. I think he's
like this all the time. I'm saying, I just need
to know that you care, and right now, when you
start explaining why you did things, no, it just shows
me that you care more about being right. Can you
do about for me?

Speaker 3 (40:25):
It's not about being right. I do care and I
want you to feel comfortable, and I'm sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Could there be for future for future? Yeah yeah, yeah yeah,
so for future things it's not about well, one thing
was just like checking, you know, having those detailed chats
about what we're where, we're going, what we're doing, blah
blah blah, and just seeing what Jess needs in that.
What do you think you'll need on Friday night. You
okay with where we're going? Oh, you'd be uncomfortable with him? Okay,

(40:49):
what could we do that makes that easier? There's that part.
But what we're actually talking about here, and I think
you keep going to the problem solve is and maybe
that could be the prompt. So sometimes we need a
little prompt from our partner to remind us when we
keep going off on our default behavior. Right, So if
your default behavior, David is to try to problem solve

(41:10):
or rationalize, then could it be Yeah, so could it
be that Jess goes no problem solving, you know, or
something some some sort.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
Of quiz my hug.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, So just like a little prompt. So when you
start going on that problem solving mode and Jess is
just waiting for the hug or just waiting for you,
it's a hug, but she needs prompt you so but.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
You can then you know, he can do what he
needs to do. So for him his system to be calmed,
he needs to make it very clear that it wasn't intentional,
you know whatever, explain himself. But me, I just need
that hug. And if I get that hug, I get
that little moment then you get your bitch. Won't matter
if he does that, because he's shown me he cares

(41:52):
and then he's doing what he needs to do.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
You look almost in look almost in pain. David over there,
you look almost in pain.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
So I'm just I'm just thinking.

Speaker 4 (42:02):
I think I think it's most of the time it's
too if I give her her, I think what's gonna work.
I think sometimes it does enough to it sometimes but
it didn't.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Work, and nothing will work all the time, right, yeah,
But but I think it's being able to prompt each other.
So if Jess goes, you know, whatever the prompt is
is like no problem solving, it's hug time first, or
you know whatever, where it's just like, oh, you've forgotten
the hug. Can we hug and then we'll go and
then I and then I want to hear you because
the point is is that you need to be heard,
and Jess is saying I will hear you, but I

(42:30):
actually can't hear you. It's like I don't have hearing
until I get the hug, even do something of like
my ears aren't working until the hug comes, and then
my ears can work and I can hear.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
You're very perceptive. That's that's very good. Yeah, I know
you're right, and you know just told me that several
times as well. So it's it's it's I think it's
tool most of the time, and you are. It doesn't
work all the time. But and then she can't hear
if she doesn't have that bit where she feels that
that I'm here and you know, and I'm close and

(43:02):
I want you know, and I love her, and.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, because it's almost like that turns her ears on
and then she can actually hear what you're saying, because
it's important for you to feel understood and you don't
want her to misunderstand what your thought process was. And
obviously from your background and your life experiences, it's very
important for you to feel understood or not misinterpreted.

Speaker 4 (43:25):
Or it's more than that, it's like, it's more like, what,
how do we fix it for the future, so you know, yeah,
just to make sure I know what I'm doing next time,
I won't we won't have this problem, or I will
find a better way of something.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
But yeah, so you're so fixated on that that you
miss the thing that turns on just as is to
be able to hear you and talk.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
With you about that. Yeah, probably something like that.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, okay, shake you home with us, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Put me in your pocket.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, I'll call you out with me.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
I was just thinking like a living nan but instead
it's like a living therapist. I imagine you wouldn't want me.
I imagine you'd want to get rid of me pretty quickly.
I'm sure when we come back, I'm going to check

(44:19):
in with Jess and David about another one of the
challenges they've been facing as a couple, different ideas about
what cheating is and what boundaries they need in their
relationship back in a tick. So, I don't know whether
whether there's something else one or both of you want
to raise, or do we want to kind of touch

(44:39):
on a little bit on the couple agreements and the
cheating stuff, like where would you like to go?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
I feel that that's probably something that's been ongoing for
a long time, and we discussed that in detail. I
think maybe not going there today.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
It's going to be a difficult one to because we.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Do we do need to come up with agreements on that.
I mean, I don't want to push.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
It, push it for who for you or for him?

Speaker 2 (45:19):
For him?

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Oh, that's nice. That's nice. It's nice.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Well, because honestly, if he can hear what I'm saying
and give me that hug, give me that little moment
of physical closeness, then that will make such a difference
for me. That would make a huge difference to everything.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (45:43):
I've got the feeling that sometimes probably pushed me back anyway,
So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
But and maybe maybe just does I think we talked before,
like it does push back sometimes out of the field.
Maybe if she's already been hurt and then gets the hug,
she struggles to allow for the hug. I'm just guessing here,
I'm not sure to do.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
I need him to be strong sometimes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
And that's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, yeah, that's interesting.
You mean what you push me and I go back,
And I'm just.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Going to say, if I get to the point where
I'm actually distressed, he doesn't see that as distress. He
sees it as anger. But I'm actually distressed and I
need I need support, Like this is a time when
you're crying and you're screaming and all that. But he
doesn't get that I'm not angry. He thinks I am
so he treats it like she's angry, but actually I'm

(46:33):
distressed and that's what I need reassurance and I need
him to be a place of calm for me to
help me, bring me, bring me down to that level.
But we'll just slate straight up there and that just
help me at all.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
It depends on the words that you use, and the
world are very powerful, so at that moment where you're
in distress, it's very importantly careful what you're saying or
what we see.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
Of the thing is I have been careful and it
hasn't worked, and that's led to the distress. And that's
what I mean. Like, if back at that first point,
if he can just give me that hug that I need,
just hear me out in the beginning, seeing that it
wouldn't get to that point, or if it would be
much less often.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
If no harm is done first, of course, I'll definitely
you know.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
And that's where the prompts come in. If you need it,
and David hasn't got on in a moment, prompt him.
If he then ignores the prompt, I'd prompt one more
time and say, hey, this is that thing we're talking
about my ears don't work until they get the hug
and then we can you.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
Know, do you know, like that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
I've heard that that's the case for a lot of
men that like, we're not very we don't have very
good perception on these things, like there's a lot of
things there and and and I think it's yeah, i've
heard that say, well yet please don't assume we don't care.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yeah, I was gonna say, it might seem obvious to you,
just like it might seem really obvious, and you think,
surely he can see that I need a hug right now.
And I think that's part of what course.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Now girlfriends would do that we're crying to my girlfriends
and we're screaming. They're nodding their heads, so like, I
know what you're talking about. You know that, give me
a hug. Yes, it was awful, It was you know, rubbish.
Whatever that's saying, it's all the things that you need
to hear.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Yeah, and help you feel safe. But instead we've got
David in problem solving mode, which is such a common,
very common interaction with couples where one needs emotional support
and the other one is either trying to support but
on a totally different way, or the distress actually triggers
off something in them and then they're not able to

(48:39):
show you the empathy. So maybe, and that I think
is what happens when it gets to that higher level
where the distress gets to a point where now David
is now he's feeling distressed or angry, and then he
is no longer able to empathize anything.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
There's a moment to WI or else or else.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
He thinks that pointing out why I'm wrong it's helpful.

Speaker 4 (49:02):
Well, it's just it's not even It's that is also
of proben slving quite often, and I think you'd see
it as I'm doing something wrong. Well, what I'm trying
to say is this is why I'm only.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
Acting like this.

Speaker 4 (49:12):
But anyway, yeah, but you right, And what a good
plan is like early early warning system.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Early intervention. No really, it's like before but before both
of us are too pissed off or sad or to her.
It's like when it starts out small, because I think
that's where maybe, yeah, the prompts are not direct enough
in the beginning because it is only small, and then
by the time they get bigger, then it becomes the
mixed messages, and I think that's where it all gets

(49:45):
a bit lost.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, you're right, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Yeah, And like these are just sort of you both
have your own ways of functioning created from your life experiences, right,
the family dynamics you grew up in, and then the
relationships you found yourself in. So it's just become these
default patterns. But some of them are no longer useful
or you know, there are different ways that we could
do it that would work better between each other. And

(50:10):
that's essentially what we're looking at now. And it just
is that practice, practice, practice. I'm going to keep accidentally
doing that thing, and then I'm going to just sorry,
did that thing again, try again. That's it. It's not
about being perfect from now on. It's just trying to
build your awareness of the default behavior and then try
and do something different. Yeah, does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (50:34):
What do you look like you're pondering, David?

Speaker 4 (50:36):
No, No, I'm just wondering if, because if maybe we
should tackle it, that.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
Cheating thing whatever.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
I don't know, we don't have a lot of time.

Speaker 4 (50:46):
Yeah, anyway, but I mean the reason I think it'd
be good anyway too. At some point, whether it's today,
another time. The issue is seeing that I don't know
if I can. I can, I can start very quickly, okay,
but I don't know. You don't want to do it,

(51:08):
you want.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
To, Okay, let me let's let's let's do it. Let's
tell me no, no, hang on. Well, I'm actually just
working with what happened just there, right, So what I
saw is so we've got David holding your hand. But
then just if I'm looking at your body language, just
when when he said let's do it, and you felt
like he was going to do it, you let it.
Look like you let go of the hand, you moved
a bit away from him, and your your face looks down.

(51:29):
So your body language tells me that you don't want
to talk about this now. But your words said okay
you want to or okay, let's do it like you
said yes, but your whole body and face said no.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
That's that's fine. We don't have to.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
I'm just and then we won't.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, but it's not something that can be talked about.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
You are and maybe not also in like it's something
maybe we should do it privately anyway, But anyway, I
don't know if we explained anything.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Can do it in another session, another time, or whenever
you guys want to.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
But it would be great, honestly.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah, it would be great. But I think it's it's
emotionally too much because at the moment, Yeah, there's there's
a lot that we've gone through today, and yeah, I
think I think so I can really see areas where.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
You've been fantastic, be clearer.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Yeah, thank you, yeah, yeah, thank you. No, look and
I think this is this is it what happened there though,
And I'm glad. Yes you did then I prompted, but
you did then go no, ye, no, I don't want to.
So then you stepped into your you stepped into what
you wanted and you were very clear there and it
didn't seem rude or erasive or anything. It was just like, no,
I don't want to talk about that.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Yeah, perfectly, it's good. Yeah, the way we avoid you
know something.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
But David was about to do.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
It was I you see this is interesting. I wouldn't.
I mean I did pick up that she left my hand.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
Yeah, she dropped your hand. Her body moved away and
she looked out like I didn't think.

Speaker 4 (53:02):
I didn't think really is going to be too much
for her. I didn't think that, and I should have,
I guess, but it's difficult for me to pick it up.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
Because also you might be working with your own feelings.
So I really want to talk about the like pretend
I'm just yes. So here we got you again in
the problem solving mode, and there's this urgency around I
want to I want to make this better. I want
to know what to do, and so that over road
your ability to see what was going on for Jess,

(53:30):
which is a bit like that, this is the thing
our own internal drives can blind us to what's going
on in.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
But I did ask.

Speaker 4 (53:36):
It was like, shall I speak about that or that
we have time? Or is it a problem or what?

Speaker 1 (53:40):
You didn't know? You did the right thing and you asked.
The only thing that was missing there is that yet
not picking up Yeah, it's the achievement. So not picking
up on Jess's incongruence, so her words and behavior weren't matching.
And then Jess, on your end is because you were
almost hurting yourself there, like it was allowing this thing

(54:02):
to happen that you really I.

Speaker 4 (54:04):
Don't particularly want to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
I think you guys need to talk about it, but
today may not be the right time, and Jess was saying,
it's not the right time, but we had to we
had to pick at you a little bit to get you.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
To say no, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yeah. So it's almost like your practice is going to
be probably mean that you're going to feel really rude
and really bossy and really you know, kind of not
your usual personality. But the practice is, how can I
start being more transparent about what I actually need and
not worry about what he needs, Like you know, David

(54:43):
will let you know what he needs, but you don't.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Worry about it.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
I don't mind about it. He's not he's not your hostage.
He's not you know, he'll he'll speak up if if
there's yeah, and then and then you go into negotiation,
like if you say no, I don't want to talk
about it and now, and then David goes, well.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
You're about talking about hostages and the negotiation that sounds
a bit scary.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Well yes, actually yeah, it's not idealis. So I'm glad
to bring a bit of humans. So just yeah, I
think that's that's the thing. Is that what happens, because
it sounds like if I just hope that David will
pick up on my body language, and then when he doesn't,

(55:24):
he almost then gets punished. Right, So my body said no,
my words said yes. And then if he had started
talking about it and then it ended up going to
sheet or I don't know, it just wasn't what you wanted,
then you probably would have been really I don't know, frustrated, angry,
let down by him. I don't know. There would have
been a resentfulness, there.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Would have been negative feelings for sure.

Speaker 5 (55:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it looked I mean it's torta
I must admit, you know, I saw that to here today,
But even there I might not pick it up because,
like you said, I'm like, I'm really twenty Yeah you know,
I mean you know.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
I mean it's so it's it's sort of like, yeah,
I've been brought up. I'm in it. Like it's not
a bad thing, trying to solve problems, right, is it?

Speaker 1 (56:10):
No? This is what I mean. Your intention is good,
and I think that's what Jess has been saying this
whole time, is that you have a good intention. But
I think it's just an emotional regulation thing on your
end where I get so either fixated or driven to
problem solve or fix this thing that I actually miss
really important information around.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Me, do you know, like I'm in Yeah, ok, I
could tell you something about the well don't what's happened
in previous relationship makes me a bit that way as well.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
But yeah, I mean that's all really sort of.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Problems as absolutely MPRT.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
Otherwise my family would be suffering. So it is a
bit of that too, okay.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
And that's I think really important stuff to talk about,
whether it's you know, in therapy sessions or whether it's
between you two, but having an understanding of why my yeah,
why my partner is the they are, and what relationships
and family dynamics they've come from, because it gives you
a bit of empathy when there's a behavior that you
find difficult. So let's say, if the problem solving thing

(57:11):
is something that justs finds quite difficult at times, knowing
where it comes from and why it happens doesn't mean
oh okay, so you can just keep doing it. You're
working on it, but I might have a bit more
patience for you if I know where it comes from.

Speaker 4 (57:24):
Yeah, on how it can be heard as well, or
how it can both be heard that's what's really important anyway.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
Absolutely, but I think it's fine to leave it for
another session. But it was great to see that interaction
between you two because that gave us some.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
Work to be Yeah, you saw it, you sort of things.
I'm very impressed and I honestly anyway, Yeah, if we
could have another session with you, it'd be fantastic, I think,
I mean, what do you think?

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Yeah, it's absolutely up to you guys.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Yeah, I think just pushing too much in one go
is probably not great because I think we need to
on things and work them through, and that's what we
were able to do last week. And we both agreed
that last week was so productive and it really really
helped us. And the homework was really good too, because

(58:15):
it gave us an opportunity, like I said, to see
what worked, see what didn't, and to talk about how
we can, you know, tweak things.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
For me today, I noticed the perception thing. I can see.

Speaker 4 (58:27):
It's it's all been about that for my point of view,
So you know, I do want to work on that.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
I think I need to work on, like you say,
being clearer more proactive, because by not being as directors,
perhaps I should be I ended up disappointing myself and you,

(58:54):
So I'll work on that.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, we can leave it. That's enough for to day.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
So we've just completed our second session with Sarah and
I am feeling a little bit emotional at the moment
because we touched on some topics that I feel really
underlie a lot of our relationship issues. But I really
felt that Sarah listened to me and really understood what

(59:27):
I was mostly concerned about, and that the issues we've
been discussing are just really symptoms of that underlying one.
And I hope Dave felt the same way because I'm
feeling like, very emotional, but it's kind of like a release,
so it's a good kind of emotional. I just need

(59:49):
a nap now, maybe a snack first. I feel that
if we're able to continue talking to Sarah a little
bit more, then things will only go from strength. It's
the strength because I'm already feeling so much more positive
about us as a couple than I was a few
weeks ago. I was kind of like, well, this is

(01:00:09):
our last ditch effort to see if it can work.
And the way that she presented everything to us, the
perspective that she offered the suggestions she made just made
everything seem so achievable. So I really feel that it
would be a great investment in us if we're able
to keep seeing her a little bit longer, just to

(01:00:31):
see if we can keep this momentum up. And I
feel like we might be able to. It's a good feeling.
I think through this process, I've learned more about my
need to be clearer on what my needs actually are,
because I'm so worried about coming across as confrontational. I'm

(01:00:55):
so worried about coming across as annoying people or being
inconvenient or probably stuffing things up for them in a
way that I put my own needs last, and in
doing that, I become quite resentful. And it's been really
good to be able to have Sarah kind of like

(01:01:20):
give me the permission to express myself more clearly, and
in doing that it sort of frees me from some
sort of responsibility to not look at myself as critically.
I think that probably that cheating thing definitely needs to
be addressed, because that is something that has hurt me

(01:01:41):
really hard, and it's something that causes a lot of
distrust in our relationship. But I don't feel that I
had the emotional capacity to deal with that today. And
I think that's actually a testament to Sarah because the
things that we did touch on, we really dived into

(01:02:02):
quite deeply and addressed them in an unachievable way.

Speaker 4 (01:02:13):
How I'm feeling after this session pretty good. I think again,
we discovered a couple of things, or even if we
sort of knew it, or if I realized there was
something like, it wasn't really clear. So it's clarified a
few things that, you know, it made it clear that
I need to work on my perception of things. Yeah,

(01:02:37):
it's it's been quite good acause I could see just
also realizing things that because someone else is saying it
it helps, and also the realizing things that like she
didn't really understand, but I also noticed myself obviously these
things I need to improve, and it was clear. It

(01:02:58):
just made it clear for me. So that's how I feel.
And she's definitely doing her part. And I know that
she means that she can she can see where also
she needs to do something, and I think she sees
that I'm gonna make an afford my side, and we
do that intelligently, then we're gonna it's gonna improve, it's

(01:03:20):
gonna be it's it's gonna be hope. You know, we're
gonna have well, we're gonna be more more hopeful to
you know, keep going and do well in a relationship.
But well, you know, we we have some work to do.
And what is next is I think we're gonna make
it work. I think we can make it work, and

(01:03:42):
I'm hoping it's gonna get. I think it's gonna get
probably slowly better and better where we're going to be.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
More relaxed with one another. That's what I.

Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
Want is at the end that we are able to
see each other's friends completely relaxed and have a great
time all the time.

Speaker 6 (01:03:57):
Basically, Yeah, My hope for Jess and David is that
they really continue on this path that they're on of
looking at how they get in their own way and
how they can shift the default behaviors that have become
a block or a barrier to being understood, feeling cared
for and supported by each other.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
They have a great foundation of love and respect there.
I think it's just a communication piece that makes things
go a bit wobbly, and if they continue to work
at getting better at being transparent, more attuned and checking
in with each other. I do think that there's a
lot of really positive things that they can change in
their relationship. This Is Why We Fight was created by

(01:04:38):
Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Nelson. The executive producer is
Naima Brown. Our studio engineer is Lou Hill. Sound design
and music by Tom Lyon. Additional production support from Leah
Porgus and Coco Levine. Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.
If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings or
if you feel like you need a bit of help,

(01:05:00):
there are links in our show notes to resources available
to you right now, as well as how to connect
with my practice Motivated Minds. If you'd like to apply
to be on the next season of This Is Why
We Fight, there's a link to the application in our
show notes too. You can listen to part one of
my session with Jesson David wherever you listen to your
podcasts right now. Meet you there.