Kate & Dean [Part 1 of 2]: Sex, Shame & Broken Trust

Many years and two children later, Kate and Dean's marriage is teetering on the edge of separation. In this session, Sarah attempts to help Kate and Dean navigate the foundational rupture that broke the trust between them, and the layers of sexual boundaries, shame, and disconnection that have piled up on top of them. 

Can Kate and Dean finally heal their relationship and rediscover love, appreciation and respect? Or is it time for them to walk away? 

Listen to the second part of Kate & Dean's session here

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
• Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

The End Bits

• Want To Be On This Is Why We Fight? Apply here. 
• Host: Sarah Bays
• Executive Producer: Naima Brown
• Studio Engineer: Lu Hill
• Audio production: Thom Lion and Jacob Round
• Production support: Leah Porges and Coco Lavigne
• Follow This Is Why We Fight on Instagram for sneak peeks and more relationship therapy content

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the
traditional owners of the land and waters this podcast was
recorded on. This podcast has been produced with the strongest
regard for the wellbeing of our participants, all of whom
have chosen to share their biggest relationship struggles in the

(00:28):
hopes of helping other people. All participants have been provided
with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Now it doesn't matter what I do, it's always the
wrong thing. Like I again, I still make silly decisions.
I'm still a male, but it's now got to the
point where I can't follow Instagram influences because it makes
her feel bad or it's embarrassing. I can't look at
people in certain ways. I can't be into certain things sexually.
She's not she doesn't feel comfortable or embarrassed about it.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Welcome to This is why we fight, real people, real problems,
real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical
psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples,
and families. This series has been designed to allow you,
our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of

(01:22):
other people who are grappling with the challenges in their
relationships because I firmly believe that we can learn so
much from each other. Today you're meeting Dean and Kate.
Dean a police officer and Kate, a nurse, are busy
parents in the Sunshine Coast. What you're going to hear
in this first session is a couple whose foundation ruptured

(01:44):
quite early on and they've never been able to repair it.
When you add different sexual needs and very different communication
styles to a situation where there already is very little trust,
there's a lot of work to do to get back
on the same page. Here's Session one with Dean and Kate.

(02:05):
All Right, Kate and Dean. Lovely to see get nice
to see you, Nice to me.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Hi.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
So I thought I'd maybe let Kate start us off
because Kate, I believe it was you that wanted to
start the therapy process for you both as a couple.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah, it was. I mean we've we have tried it
before and we didn't have a lot of success. But
we're sort of at a point, I think where it's
almost a bit of a last result in a way
for our relationship. It's well, it doesn't feel like we
have much of a relationship at the moment, So it's

(02:42):
just trying to figure out what we can essentially do
from here.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
And when you say it doesn't feel like you've got
much of a relationship at the moment, how long has
it felt like that for you, Kate?

Speaker 3 (02:56):
Since it's been since about the end of January, so
it's been always what's that eight months or so that
we've essentially been living separately on the same property, but yeah,
basically completely separately.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
And do you want to give me a bit of
an idea of what led to that? Like how did
we get there?

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah? Well, I mean there's been there's been lots lots
of ups and downs. I feel like it's our relationship
has sort of never been smooth sailing. It's been. Yeah,
it's like a it's like a roller coaster, honestly, But
it's sort of just all came to a head. I
guess at the start of this year. There's been some

(03:46):
some some stuff that was happening that I decided I
realized that I wasn't entirely comfortable with and put a
stop to that. And as a result, yeah, essentially Deaned
just decided he would move out of the head, and

(04:08):
it's just all really gone downhill from there. I mean,
I feel like it's actually been quite probably more peaceful
for us. Both nothing in the same space, but it's
just like from there, we've just drifted further and further apart,
and the only real connection is our kids, Okay.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah. And I think often when there is a lot
of tension and pressure in a relationship, it can feel
relieving to have a bit of space and distance, right,
But I think inevitably what comes with that if that
space and distance stretches on too long, is that we
become disconnected or disengaged, which sounds like what you're saying
there is like, yep, we don't maybe fight as much,
but now we don't really connect.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah. There, I feel like there is zero connection, and
whenever we sort of try to talk about no, I
just have a conversation. In general, it just going around
in circles. We don't achieve anything. And then usually I

(05:15):
get frustrated because it's gone on for so long and
we just don't get anything out of it. So it's
usually me that ends it and says that I just
can't I just can't do it anymore.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
And then it goes back to not talking about things
and just sort of doing what you need to do for.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
The kids pretty much.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, can you co parent without issues?

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Like?

Speaker 1 (05:41):
Is that fairly steady going just talking about the kids stuff?

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, it is. But I find that he sort of
doesn't really make an effort to talk to me much
in general, or doesn't want to talk to me in
general unless it's delving sort of straight to our issues.

(06:10):
So there's just sort of nothing, and then just a
really full on conversation and then it just goes back
to sort of nothing. But yeah, we get we get
through each each day and manage manage the kids. Okay,
for the most part. I guess there's moments where I
just wish you would sort of speak to me in

(06:32):
a way that was a bit nice and maybe just
in front of the kids, Like I don't really want
them to to know, I guess the fullest extent of
what's going on, but also I just don't want them
to see may being spoken to that way and to

(06:52):
think that that's okay, and maybe do.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
Not go to you for a minute here. So Kate's
obviously explained that it's been since about January that the
two of you aren't living in the same house, although
you're still in the same property together. Have you felt
it also to be a bit of a relief to
have that distance in space or what has that been
like for you.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
It's pretty I'm pretty isolated over there, Like it's not
I don't really have a great deal of internet connection
or anything. So once I'm over there, I'm just over
there and I'm just either reading books or I'm not
a big sleeper as it is, so I seem to
get lost in my own head quite a bit, which
isn't hasn't been great for my mental health, but again

(07:38):
I've made the choice to do that so it's better
for the kids. I've talked to the older two of
the three about why I'm over there and if they've
got any issues why I'm over there, and I just
I've explained to them it's just so it's a it's calmer,
and so that I don't fight as much with Pate.

(07:58):
We don't fight, and they're both acknowledged that we don't
fight as much.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
So, yeah, is it isolating and a bit lonely out there?

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes, it is, But again, with the style of work
that we do, we rarely see each other anyway, So
it hasn't really had a great impact in relation to
what we used to have, as we used to just
sit in bed and watch TV anyway. So in relation
to our connection, I don't think there's a great deal

(08:32):
of difference down The difference is that I'm not heare
to get up for the kids at night or early
in the mornings. But I've seen as though I primarily
work nice shifts now that's unfortunately what we've had to do.
So yeah, I agree it's calmer, and the kids don't
seem to be too affected by it. And if I'm

(08:54):
not working the following day, one or two of them
come over with me if they ask if I've got
nothing on the next day, and they'll stay and where
I'm staying at the same time, which is and yeah,
that's it has felt calmer, But in relation to the
connection side of things, it's just I kind of feel
like I'm not in the house to help as much

(09:15):
with the night issues. But I'll go to bed when
they go to bed, or if I'm exhausted after working lunch,
use I'll go to bed at around the same time
I've been trying to be over here and I help where.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
I can, and I mean Kate obviously has wanted to
do this process. It sounds like, from what you said
in the beginning, there Kate to find out whether this
can be repaired or whether you guys can reconnect and salvage,
you know, some of the relationship. I mean, how long
have you guys been together?

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Oh, it's been about ten years?

Speaker 1 (09:52):
And if we go back and maybe I'll start with
you Dean and then Kate. But Dean, can you because
Kate described it as the relationship has always been, you know,
a bit of a rollercoaster, So that sounds like actually
some there were definitely some ups in there and some
downs early on. If you can cast your mind back,
Dean to when you felt like there was a good
connection between the two of you, What did that look

(10:15):
like like? What was the connection like when it was good?

Speaker 2 (10:19):
So the connection when it was good unfortunately an issue,
a few issues I had very early on on what's
caused all of this. But right at the start, there
was the desire that I felt that she was attracted
to me. There was a like we enjoy spending time
with each other.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
There was never we just like being in each other's company.
We had fun, together.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Unfortunately, I had some issues that caused me to make
some decisions that weren't great for the relationship, and that
snowballed pretty much from there.

Speaker 4 (10:56):
And that was very very early on in the relationship.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
And you're saying, Dean that you feel like what went
wrong there is actually the catalyst for where you guys
are at now.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Like I acknowledged that i'd done
the wrong thing. At the beginning, I was underknownst to me,
I was suffering from bipolar at the time. Didn't really
care what my actions did to affect anyone, which made
me very good in what i'd done for my job. Unfortunately,

(11:27):
it didn't make me a good partner, and I didn't
really have any care for myself or anyone else when
it came to what I was doing, which was not
physically cheating, but more of a mental thing where I
was talking to people and exchanging photos and everything with
people I shouldn't have been doing, and I couldn't figure
out why I was doing that. It was a very

(11:49):
quick release, if probably the best word to describe it,
and trying to.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
Chase that dopamine hit a little bit.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
I couldn't explain why I did it, And it wasn't
until it become a problem and actually started seeing someone
and became medicated for these issues that it started to
calm down. But unfortunately the trust was already broken by me,
and regardless of whether or not it was caused by
the issues I had at the time, but trust has

(12:17):
never been back, and it's the resentment just grew and
grew and infested, infested, regardless of what I tried to
do to fix.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
It, and what type of things did you try to
do to fix that?

Speaker 2 (12:30):
So I sought help for a start, which was pretty
embarrassing trying to get through what my own issues were
to be willing to undertake medication, which is like, it's
pretty draining, it's not great on your body, and it also, yeah,
it kind of makes it hard for anything that goes

(12:54):
on in any building that I was trying to do
to the point where the resentment that she showed got
me at This might go over months or a year
or so, and then all of a sudden, I might
just I'll do something stupid again and get caught again.
Just chasing that desire and that that feeling that I'm

(13:17):
actually worth something to someone that I wasn't getting anywhere else.
And again it was my reason that the resentment's there,
But the resentment just kind of grew and it's never
gone away, and.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
So the trust then was destabilized further.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, that kept it kept going like that every time
we'd have a discussion about what we were going to
do to make it better for each other.

Speaker 4 (13:41):
And it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Until very recently that so twelve years down the track
that we've actually she's made an effort to go to
a counselor and work on her self. But it's I
don't know where I go from here. Like she said,
you've just got to not do what I was doing.
But now it doesn't matter what I do, it's always

(14:05):
the wrong thing.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
Like I.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Again, I still make silly decisions. I'm still a male,
but it's now got to the point where I can't.
I can't follow Instagram influences because it makes her feel
bad or it's embarrassing. I can't look at people in
certain ways. I can't be into certain things sexually.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
She's not.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
She doesn't feel comfortable or embarrassed about it. It's just, yeah,
it's very much a Yeah, it's a bit hard to
try and I'm kind of stuck where I have to
change everything about the person I am to become the
person she wants in order to stay together as a
family unit.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Okay, well let's go to Kate because I think, you know,
it'll be interesting to hear from you, Kate. Obviously if
we go way back when to the first Yeah, the
first break of the trust there, what that was like
for you and what your perspective of Dean's attempts to

(15:04):
repair or change or fix the situation, Like, what was
it like on your end?

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Oh, it was horrible. It just sort of came out
of nowhere and it yeah, just really like sorry, it
just makes you feel really shit, I guess about yourself

(15:31):
because everything was really good. M hm, so I thought
and if I mean, if things like that are gonna
happen when everything's really good, it's a bit of a worry.
But it just it just really destroyed all the confidence

(15:51):
that I had.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
In yourself or in the relationship as well, but both
probably a bit.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
Of both, yeah, but yeah, like definitely myself. It just
really sort of maybe question like why I wasn't enough
And yeah, like you said, that was quite early on,

(16:19):
and looking back, I guess both of us have both
sort of said, like, looking back, perhaps we should have
made different decisions at that time, but hindsight is a
funny thing. Well, I mean, I wouldn't obviously change having
my children or anything, but no, But.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
I mean, how did you deal with it? So was
there a discussion around what you needed or what you know,
how you felt you were going to be able to
rebuild trust.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
I probably didn't deal with it really well at the time.
I just I didn't really know how to deal with
it or sort of where to go from there. So
initially before he was diagnosed, I guess we just sort
of tried to to battle through it somehow, which wasn't ideal,

(17:18):
Like we should have way back then been doing sort
of what we're doing now, and that potentially likely would
have really helped. But I guess it was we'll be young.
I didn't really know anyone else that had gone through
that counseling process, like it all probably just feel seemed

(17:41):
a bit, I don't know, a bit sort of taboo like,
and I thought it was so early on in the
relationship that it almost felt a bit a bit ridiculous
that we would need to be doing that so early,
but now, obviously I feel that would have been a
good thing to do for us and probably for myself

(18:02):
as well.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
So yeah, it's never too early to know supporting your relationship, right,
But I understand there's a lot of stigma. I think
people do feel self conscious or embarrassed about needing to
see a couples therapists if it's early on in their relationship.
But I think it's really what you said there is
so important that actually maybe this could have helped us

(18:24):
deal with really tough things differently, and maybe things would
be who knows whether it be in a better position
now or not, but you would have had some clarity
or at least been able to really work through what
had been going on.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, So I don't think we really did
work through it, so I guess it was always still
there in the back of my mind. And even when
Deane sort of got help for himself and obviously realized
he had he had bipolar and he was being treated

(18:59):
for that, I guess we still didn't address the issues
that it had on our relationship, or I didn't, you know,
go and speak to someone about how it was making
me feel. So I told him I have told him
those things that it made me feel really really bad

(19:20):
about myself and really destroyed my confidence. And his response was,
it was never about you. It was like this, I
guess compulsion that I had to do it like that,
he almost had no control over it. And early on
I just thought that was like a massive cop out

(19:43):
sort of thing, like you're not taking responsibility of your actions.
She's blaming it all on the bipolar and you know,
you still made those decisions. But I guess it almost
felt like, or it feels like still that he thinks
just you know, he's addressed that issue and he's being

(20:04):
medicated for it, and now all the other stuff this happened,
it was in the past, and it's a result of that,
so I should just get over it, essentially and just
trust him again.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Well, it sounds like the trust was never rebuilt in
the first place. And then but yeah, and then it's
sort of kind of things just kept adding on, adding on,
adding on, And now it seems like that initial breach,
breach of trust was so long ago. Potentially there's other,

(20:38):
maybe more recent things that have happened since then that
might be affecting the two of you. But it's all
sort of stemming from that original place.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
It's all stemmed from thee but there has been different
things that have happened along the way, and yeah, like
you say, much more recently that have affected the trust
as well.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
And in terms of being able to trust Dean. Now,
how would you describe because Dean mentioned there a few
things that he feels he whether it's not allowed to
do or that he knows that if he was to
do that it would upset you. Does it feel like
your trust for him is quite low?

Speaker 3 (21:24):
Probably? Yeah, Yeah, I guess the stuff that he was
doing initially, a lot of it was on say social
media and different apps and things. And we've just been
through this sort of process before where he's like, oh, well,

(21:45):
I'll just get off everything. I'll just delete all the
apps and I'll get off that. And I've always said
that that's just like a band aid fix really, because
that's not something that's sustainable. It's not going to last forever.
And then eventually you'll get back on the apps and
what's going to happen then, And he did. I think

(22:06):
he deleted the apps while back in the day, and
then he eventually he was got the apps again. Instead
he was just sort of going to add people that
he's actually friends with and that you know, people who
went to school with all the rest of it. But
then slowly the same thing happens that he just added
you know, some of the same people that he had

(22:27):
on there, or that he had been chatting to and
sending these photos to and whatnot. And I mean, the same,
the same sort of thing has happened, like quite recently
that there's just people on there that I'm like, I
don't understand why you would add that person again when
like they've cause dramas in the past and you're not

(22:48):
actually really friends with them. I just don't. I just
don't get it.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, And look, I guess we can see where the
cycle right. So if we look at where the repair
has not been successful. So I think Dean, you mentioned
before that because you weren't, like after the original sort
of breach of trust, and because that never really was
able to be repaired, you weren't feeling that closeness and

(23:13):
connection and attraction and you know, all of that from Kate,
and so then although you were still together, it felt
like you were now really missing something in the relationship
and you're saying that then became the reason for looking elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
That was probably after I was diagnosed and made the
effort to undo all of that, thinking that it might
prompt something to change, including Kate going and actually having
a session with my doctor so you could explain it.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
Unfortunately that was.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
That didn't really assist at all, and it's more felt
like I've been even though that explained some of the
actions that I've done, and that's not only in relation
to our relationship, it's in relation to my life in general,
it hasn't really helped matters at all, Like that hasn't
been taken into account when there's been a rebuild of

(24:13):
trust or it's still it's been a quite an unappreciative
relationship the whole way along, and even now when we've
had these hard discussions that Kate says goes round and
around the circle that I've asked her how she's showed
that she's attracted to me, or how she's desired me

(24:35):
or acknowledged good things that I've done, and and she
doesn't know, and she comes back with, I just must
be really really bad at showing it, or I just
mustn't be good at showing it. And trying to figure
out the little things that we can do this year
to try and get along a little bit better. The
fact that the minute I haven't asked for anything except

(24:58):
for a little bit of acknowledgment and thanks in relation
to what I do. Because when I'm not working at work,
I'm working around the property or I'm with the kids,
I don't really do a great deal else. It's really
highlighted how much the last twelve years has gone with
no acknowledgment or appreciation or the constant or why did

(25:22):
you do this? Or having to justify why I've spent
money on this, or it's never been a it's never
been an easy process. When I worked for a week
doing something and don't get anything in it, don't get
any acknowledgement in a return, or say when I built
the house that the kids and Kate are living in

(25:45):
and her friends will come and look at it and
they'll say, this is amazing. I can't believe Dean has
done this, and she'll jump straight onto I had help
from this people, these people at least, but they done
the main parts of it, Like it's never an acknowledgment
that I've done the majority of the work, or.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
She really struggles with the fact that.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Now I don't involve her in a lot of the
conversations around a lot of things which don't affect her
at all. But more recently, there's been a couple of
issues at my work where I've come home to try
and discuss those with her, and she's just jumped straight
onto their side.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
And I've also coppted from.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Her, and she's not willing to hear me out when
it comes to those and she's so it's not like, yeah,
it's been.

Speaker 4 (26:39):
Very hard. She's very much.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Into She wants the emotional connection, the emotional conversation as
long as the conversation everything is of her interest. She
doesn't want the conversations that reflect around.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
Around me.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Unless they're going to affect her.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
After this short break, I'm going to introduce a really
new concept for so many struggling couples called negative sentiment override.
Stay with us. So I think what you've been describing
their dean is it's called negative sentiment override. So this

(27:27):
happens a lot in couples where yeah, there have been
one or many instances where we haven't been able to
repair and it just keeps building and building and what
happens then, And you were describing this in Kate, but
I wonder if actually you also may experience this yourself
as well, And sometimes one will experience it in higher

(27:49):
levels than the other, but where it kind of it
almost doesn't really matter what your partner is doing. It
is very hard for you to view them in a
positive light, or it's very hard to think of the
good things. The difficult or negative parts of their personality
or traits just more obvious and grating to you that
it kind of overrides any of the good that they

(28:12):
might be doing, or we might jump to a negative
assumption about why they're saying that or why they're doing that,
and actually it could just have been an innocent thing
that they were doing. Maybe I'll go to Kate, does
that resonate a little bit where you have you noticed
a bit of that?

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah? Probably this year in particular has been really hard,
and it I feel like at the moment we don't
really particularly like each other very much, so it has
it's hard to sort of see anything positive about each other.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
I think, yeah, And I mean there's not much to
like when there's just been sort of disengagement, right, so yes,
it's not given you anything more negative, but it's given
you zero positive to even be able to start building
some sense of appreciation or positive between the two of you.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean I feel so he
he says, I guess that I haven't been appreciative and
supportive for the entire relationship now, but I feel like
now he just really is so focused on the negative
that that's all he thinks about it. Like that, I

(29:24):
feel like there were times, so probably were plenty of
times that I wasn't as supportive or appreciative as I
could have been because I was hurt and thought back
at the start, well, you know, you cause this drama,
like you need to fix it, and like like you

(29:47):
don't really deserve my appreciation for this, like you need
to work really hard for it. So like I acknowledge that, yeah,
there was I definitely could have been more supportive and
appreciative at times. But I just feel like he wants,
you know, just saying thanks isn't enough. So I don't

(30:09):
know how he's wanting me to show appreciation because especially
this year. Why as much as yeah, it's been really hard,
the only thing that is sort of said that he
wants me to do is to be more appreciative and
more supportive, and I've really made an effort to do that.
So anytime he's done anything at all, I've really made

(30:33):
an effort to say thank you, You've done a really
good job with that.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
And maybe this might be enough. I was going to say,
this might be a good point to jump to Dean
because and just check in with him on that, because
this could be an example of the negative sentiment override
happening potentially on his end. So and look, it may
be in Dina, I'll let you explain, But it may
be that Kate isn't showing you appreciation in the way

(31:00):
that you would like or how you know what you're
actually asking for, or which might be true. But there
are also instances where maybe she is, but it's been
so long of you not getting what you wanted from
her that it sort of is like a trickle in
the lake. So it's a bit of that you're not
also acknowledging it.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
That's definitely a case of that, because I've even said
that in the past eight months. It now highlights how
much it wasn't done in the past twelve years, and
how much effort I actually put in to provide everything
I could for the family, and it was everything was
met with resistance or I'd need justification or I'd need

(31:44):
something in order to.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
And that made it very hard.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
And it's got to the point where I was I
was an extremely sexual person. That's how I like I'm not.
I wouldn't say that I'm addicted to it, but that's
where my release is. I was a sexual person previously.
I also really enjoy work and working hard, and I

(32:10):
do what I can with the kids. But Katie is
a fantastic parent when it comes to that. But it's
more not that she's shown the appreciation. It's just I've
learned over the last the entirety of our relationship that
if I ask for things, that means they're my idea.

(32:32):
So instead of me asking for things, now, I'll she
and she will say that, Yeah, she's been more appreciative
and she's showing the effort and putting effort in to
do that, when really people in a couple shouldn't have to.

Speaker 4 (32:46):
Make the effort. It should just happen.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, But it's more she wants me to ask.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
More of her.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
But I've learned over the years that we've been together.
If it's my idea, it doesn't happen. So I say,
what more can you offer? And it's like I'm pulling teeth.
It's like it's the worst thing I can ever ask her,
because she comes back with I don't want to offer
you more.

Speaker 4 (33:11):
I don't think, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, that's done of it. So no, look that that
makes sense. And if we go back to where we
sort of started, where Kate you said that about eight
months ago, you said you made some changes or you
weren't prepared to be doing things the way that they
were anymore, and then that was sort of the straw

(33:34):
that broke the camels back, and Dean then moved out.
What were those changes And why do you think it
was so long for you to get to that point,
because it sounded like you said that you had been
going for a long time before you realize, actually, this
isn't working for me.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
Yeah, so it was probably the last few years really
that we moved. We moved to work a few years back,
and Dean was just I think he had sort of
immediately regretted the move and he was miserable, like depressed,

(34:15):
diagnosed with depression and He suggested then that we looked
that I had this fantasy that he wanted me to
explore with him that I'd never heard of. It was
called hot wife thing. So it's I guess involved me

(34:38):
being with other people, either sort of with him they're watching,
or me I guess telling him all about it, all
the rest of it, but me being on apps and
talking to people and sending pictures and all the rest
of it. And I was really, I guess, not into it,
not into the idea from the start, just not something

(35:02):
that I really ever wanted to do, but agreed agreed
to try it because again it was he was just
miserable and he was really hard to live with, and
he was sort of saying this is going to be
the only way that he got any pleasure in his life.

(35:25):
So that, yeah, anyway, looking back, but I never should
have agreed to do it, but I did.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
So you're saying that you agreed to do it because
so part of it was seeing how his mental health
had really taken a dive after the move, so bit
of depression going on there, and then that seemed like
it was the only thing was that and trying to
get clear on what are assumptions and what are actual facts.
So did Dean say this is the only thing that

(35:53):
I think is going to make me feel better, or
is that part of you thinking he's really not doing
well and I think if I just do this is
my help?

Speaker 3 (36:02):
He would He didn't use those words at that time anyway,
but it was it was like that was to me,
it sort of felt like that was really the only option.
Otherwise he was just going to stay miserable and be

(36:24):
really hard to live with. So I thought I would
try that and see what happened. And I guess initially
I thought, oh, like, maybe if this is something that
you know, I could do every few months or something
like that would be that would be enough and I

(36:46):
might be okay with that. But it was just never enough.
And he, I guess, becomes quite obsessive with things I find.
So it was just constant, like it was if I wasn't,
you know, if I had any time to myself. I

(37:06):
just felt like there was expectation that I should be
on an app talking to someone or I should be
arranging to meet up with them. So I mean this
lasted for a couple of couple of years, probably in.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
That time in that couple of years, was there an
improvement in your relationship or even in Dean's mental health, Like,
did his mental health improved? Did you notice the two
of you were any more.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Connected at times? Yeah, but that I guess was pretty
much immediately after or like while that was happening. But
then it was just I felt this constant pressure to
be doing something like and we've got like reasonably young kids,

(37:57):
and we're both working, We're busy. If I had time
to myself, I would prefer to be doing something myself
and reading or you know, having having a bath by myself,
and like, I just hate, like I hate phones in general,
to be honest, and I hate I hated the apps

(38:18):
were horrible. I hated them. So that felt quite forced.
And yeah, at one point during those couple of years,
I just I said, like, I need to take a
break from all this. I can't. I can't do it,
like I don't want to do it. And the result
of that was essentially the same thing like him leaving
the house and us living quite separately for like, I

(38:43):
don't know, a couple of months, maybe so I did.
It kind of felt like and at that point, yeah,
I really wanted to keep our relationship together for our kids.
So it kind of did feel like that I wasn't
really given an option to some extent. But yeah, like
I never I never should have done that. It's never

(39:08):
the sort of the relationship, the type of relationship that
I wanted.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
But I think what's important is to look a little
deeper as to why, you know, why we do make
certain decisions, and rather than looking at it from a
critical lens of you know, I never should have done that,
or you know what was like thinking, or you know,
we can often get into that quite critical lens when
we look at some of our previous decisions. But if

(39:34):
you think about why you might have chosen to do
what you did even though it made you uncomfortable, I'm
going to guess that that probably is an ingrained passion
in you, that you will prioritize what somebody else needs
over your own needs, That you might take a hit

(39:56):
for something and let as long as the other person
is comfortable, So look, if that makes them happy, I'll
just do that. I can handle it. If it's annoying
for me or difficult for me or whatever, it's fine
as long as they're happy. Would am I right? In
that like, is that something that you could probably say
is in your personality type?

Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah? Probably, yeah, And I guess, yeah, this year, I
just decided that I wasn't going to do that anymore.
But yeah, like I just I got to the end
of last year. Sorry that I thought. I just can't
like it's I just felt pressure, like constant pressure to

(40:34):
provide happiness for him that then only lasted like a
shorter and shorter amount of time. So you know, to
start with once every couple of months, it was okay,
and then it was you know, once every couple of weeks,
and it almost felt like it had to be you know,
the next day, like what's happening now? There was just

(40:55):
no reprieve. So I suggested that maybe he needs to
explore you know, you know, these these different kinks and
things that he has with other people.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's an interesting suggestion from you only because it sounds
like what from what Dean was sharing just earlier, that
you know, and then what you shared about feeling really
low confidence in yourself and that you know it makes
you uncomfortable and the trust isn't there when he is
on social media and having following certain people, and so
it sounds interesting to have those things going on and

(41:32):
then you going, oh, yeah, if you want to see
other people or if you want to do whatever. Yeah,
it kind of took me through that because that was
that more out of because I can't do this anymore.
But again, it's you taking a hit, right, I'm going
to take a hit and do something that I also
I'm still not happy with.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, I just like I said, I just felt that
constant pressure, yeah, to make to give him happiness. It
just seemed like that was the only thing that bought
or he would say that was the only you know,
happiness that he had in his life essentially, and it
was just constant pressure, and I just didn't want to

(42:12):
do it. Like I didn't. I didn't want to spend
my any my spare time like texting people, and honestly,
whenever I met up with them, I generally had to
be I had to be drinking beforehand, So like just
wasn't It just wasn't what I would have chosen to

(42:32):
do with that time. But anyway, so yeah, I just
thought it might be it might take the pressure off me.

Speaker 5 (42:42):
Yeah, But yeah, like I should have known from the
star that it wouldn't have been like, they wouldn't have worked,
because again that's with the dramas that we've had and
with the type of relationship that I want, that was
never going to end well.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
But again you've you've gone into the criticism again I
should have known, you know, I should have known better.
When really what I'm trying to highlight is more the
process and the pattern underneath it is that here is
someone who actually was doing everything other than what she
wanted and needed in order to try and please somebody else.
If we just strip it right back to, yeah, to

(43:22):
essentially that's what that was, is someone who felt unable
to ask for what she wanted and needed for a
variety of reasons. You know, some could be to do
with Dean and some could be to do with the
way you're raised, you know, our family of origin, the
kind of blueprint we have about needs and being able
to assert them and communication and all that sort of stuff.
So here we have this person who, yeah, hasn't been

(43:44):
able to really do the repair that was required for
the initial blow. Then in wanting to keep things okay
and make things all right, you're doing something that felt
uncomfortable and unnatural to you. And then when that became
too much. She shifted to a different version of uncomfortable
and unnatural. And then, of course you do get to

(44:05):
the point, which you did at the end of the year,
where you said, Okay, I just can't do any of
this anymore, and so now there's this kind of disconnect happening.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yeah, that's pretty much. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Yeah, So if we look at it that way, which
I think hopefully is with a bit more compassion of like, actually,
you were just doing everything you could to try and
please Dean. Yes, it may not have been the most
healthy and functional way of going about it, but it
was the best you could under the circumstances and with
that pressure.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Yeah. No, I mean that's how I feel. But he
will consistently tell me that I just didn't try. I
didn't put any effort in to it.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well, I'm about to go to Dean now. I'd love
to hear from you, Dean a little bit about yeah,
even just actually, first we'll start with that summary I
sort of gave there around stripping it all back. Can
you well, do you agree? Do you think no? Actually,
I don't think that was happening at all. Yeah, what
do you feel like was going on there? For Kate.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, oh, I think it's very much been. We've always
been on a very different sexual wavelength. I had a
bit of a health scare a few years ago where
I am where.

Speaker 4 (45:18):
I decided that instead of hiding the.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
What I'm into, I decided to be open and honest
about that. That's very much a decision I regret now.
I shouldn't have done that because it's only led to
me being felt ashamed about the things that I'm into,
and that it doesn't primarily focus.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
On her needs and wants.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
And that's not only with other people, that's even between
each other. So it started off that we didn't just
jump into the A and M scene or the hot
light scene at all. It wasn't progressed up past that
to things that we do together that slowly, the effort

(46:04):
was very minimal, to the point than when she just
say no, that it's not a turn on for her
or it doesn't sexually interest her, so I shouldn't be
into it. And then it progressed into other people thinking
it might assist, which it did for a while, and then.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
Knowing that she wanted to.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Get out of it, she suggested that I start doing
it as well. Which my immediate reaction was no, because
if I do that, that'll definitely result in us separating.
And it took a few gos for her to ask
me to do.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
It, to then me to actually do it.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
She was the opinion that I was going to focus
primarily more on my kink side of things and particular
types of people, which usually it takes a little bit
of comfort level between those people before you can bring
those sexual interests up. You can't just dive straight into
that kind of thing. It was probably bad into a

(47:07):
that it was bad for Kate in the way that
I was with someone else, and then usually if that
was the case, then she would as soon as I
get home, she wouldn't want to hear a thing about it,
and she would go and stay where I'm.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
Currently now living away from the house.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
And it was bad for me in the way that
I got to experience what it was like to feel
attractive to someone and actually desired in that way. Good
good for my self confidence, not good for my relationship
at home because it really highlighted what I was missing
at home. Yeah, so that wasn't great that way, and

(47:44):
it's kind of got worse now that I regret doing
or asking these things of her now, because it's really
getting driven home by Kate that all of this is
my fault. The reason she feels so bad is my fault,
the reasons that she felt manipulated into doing this, and

(48:05):
I'm just getting one hundred percent of blame when that
I've never done that.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
So that's so.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
I'm interested. Yeah, I'm interested in in the term manipulation
that you brought up there where, Kate, I didn't hear
you say those words you did refer to feeling pressured
more so behaviorally.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
I just feel like he would treat me a certain
way if I was to do those things, and he
would be completely horrible to me and horrible to be
around if I didn't, so like he would be he
could be really lovely and say run a bath and

(48:55):
get me a glass of wine or whatever. But there
was an expectation there that if he was to do that,
that I would be using that time to be on
an app and talking to someone or trying to arrange something.
So it was never just be nice for the sake
of being nice, or there was never just wanting to

(49:16):
spend time with me by myself, And yeah, it was
never wanting I guess, anything sexual with me, unless we
were talking about looking at apps or talking about people
that I had potentially or was potentially going to be with.

(49:37):
That was just it made him much nicer to be around.
So if I didn't do it, then he could be
really horrible and distant and it was just hard for
me and the kids to be around. So but I
feel like in that way there was some manipulation and yeah, yeah,

(50:01):
I felt somewhat like I didn't have a choice, so
I wanted to.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
That's it. So I guess we're you're referencing there is
there's this feeling of the love being withdrawn. If I
give that as an example that if I do what
you want me to do or what you'd like, the
love is there, and if I don't, it gets snatched
away and I'm sort of left in the cold. Yeah,
from a behavior perspective, Yeah, and Dean, do you do

(50:27):
you see how Kate could have experienced it that way.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
I believe that she takes a lot of those things
like that, and that's yeah, I can I can understand
how she felt that way. But I'm also allowed to
feel disappointed when it's something.

Speaker 4 (50:47):
Like like that. There was no manipulation.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
There was no I didn't well, there's not a chance
that I'd ever there's there was times where she would
say that I'm love as she'd pull out, and I'd
be disappointed because I'd be excited about that. It was
new and exciting. It was as a sexual person. That
was a very exciting thing for me. Need to feel
comfortable enough to not let my vulnerability get in the

(51:12):
way to discuss the kinks and stuff that I'm into,
but constantly getting told that it's wrong. Everything I'm into
is wrong, that you're weird, that you're not all these things.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
But then I'll.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Try to explain that, well, I'm happy to do things
that you want to do, but you're not. I don't
want to do anything, or you don't initiate anything like it.
It's been been very much a one sided sexual relationship
for twelve years.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Even prior to the original breaking of trust.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
No, that was when it was good, like when we
weren't actually living together, when we were when we first
got together, that little honeymoon period, that was good, and
then yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:58):
It was then it was that.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
So I guess that does tell us that there is
sexual chemistry and compatibility between you too, if there was
in the beginning prior to the trust being broken Kape, So.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Yeah, I just I don't think he understands, like what
impact all those actions had on my confidence? Like, so
I definitely on my sexual confidence, like it consistently has
felt like I am not enough. So I guess again

(52:37):
with the whole life stuff, I was that reiterated, like
why don't you just want me? Like why do you
only want me if I've been with someone else? Saw
like that makes it really hard to feel confident sexually
or to want to initiate anything.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think what we need to be
able to hold here is that there can be two
different experience is happening about the same thing. So just
because Kate feels like it means that she's not enough
to you, it doesn't mean that that's how you feel, Dean.
But being able to kind of both cross over into
each other's worlds for a minute and go, Okay, even

(53:24):
though I'm not thinking that my wife's not enough, this
is just a kink that I'm into or something that
turns me on sexually, but it has nothing to do
with my wife's attractiveness and value and worth to me.
Kate is experiencing it differently, right, So it's not to
say that on your end it is that you're devaluing
her unless she is with other people. But if that's

(53:48):
how Kate's experiencing it, then work does need to be
done before any of that could even happen, if it
even was able to happen in a way that the
two of you could enjoy. And so you know it
is of course in every couple there can be, yeah,
people who are into different things. One likes this sort
of thing, one likes that sort of thing. There needs
to be some level of compatibility and crossover. But I

(54:10):
guess the biggest thing is more around the trust and
the boundaries, right, And I think that's where because that
got off to a rocky start, the trust and the boundaries,
and then you guys kind of skipped all these levels
and went to like level one hundred, which shouldn't happen
until you've got like ground levels one, two, three, four
of trust and you know, the boundaries and open discussions
about stuff. So sort of like the foundations were crumbled

(54:33):
and then you've gone and been putting the tiles on
the roof, you know, So I wonder whether and I
think it all has become a bit of a distraction now,
like the sexual compatibility staff is a bit of a
distraction from the original and more foundational issue of whether
the two of you can like each other again, trust

(54:56):
each other again, you know, be able to see some
positive things in each other and even create a friendship.
Let's say, to start.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
With that's I pretty much ruled out the like anything
sexual at all because I know that she's not a
sexual person and she wants to be more of an
emotional emotional connection. So I've been working on ways in
order to to not be a sexual person myself, which

(55:28):
has been a bit difficult, which is because I've had
to go on a hormone or drug which blocks any
interest in them, which again hasn't been great for my health,
but it still takes away the urges like.

Speaker 4 (55:41):
It's like, I'd like to have no sex in this year.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
It's a long time to not be intimate with anyone,
but it's still it's It's been very clear that it's
if it's not.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
Her terms, it's that's she doesn't agree, but it's that's
that's very much.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
It was my.

Speaker 4 (56:04):
Decision to go on to that drug.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
It was my decision to do all that because I'm
like when you when you say that I'm devaluing her
by the hot life stuff and everything.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
No, that Kate felt devalued.

Speaker 4 (56:20):
Yeah, they felt devalued.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
It wasn't that at all like I used to enjoy
the photo is not with other people, just with her,
like the flirtiness of it.

Speaker 4 (56:33):
But that all.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Dissipated very quickly. That whole fun side of it was
just dead, very quick and to the point where I
don't see that really coming back, but I did.

Speaker 4 (56:45):
So it's I.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Don't know what else I can do to get her
to trust me either.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
So well, what's interesting here is this is another example.
So you going on the medication that you just spoke
about seems like quite addressed, like a drastic measure. So
rather than even so just opening up the relationship when
the underlying issues haven't been resolved, and then for you

(57:12):
to go on this medication that you actually feel isn't
great for your health but it does suppress the urge,
is quite a drastic thing to do, rather than the
two of you really doing some work on the relationship,
like the friendship that like, wouldn't you find that to
be more of a I don't know. Appropriate first step

(57:33):
would be to look at, Okay, how do we just
really go back to level zero and start building from
there and see where this goes, and it'll either work
or we'll realize that we're not actually compatible or we
don't love each other anymore, or wherever that goes, rather
than going on this medication that feels like it's not
what you want really and it actually may affect your

(57:54):
health badly.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
The decision was made probably because I've made I've had
stuff ups, I've put the trust back further, and if
we don't do that, and it's going to happen again,
it's going to happen again. Log if there's no urge
to do anything sexual there, I've got no interest in
going and chasing that dopamine heat of being made to
feel wanted and stuff.

Speaker 4 (58:17):
Whereas unfortunately cake.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Takes quite a long time to process a lot of things,
So we could be talking years down the track of
then becoming friends then then so that's will our stuff.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Up in that time?

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Probably there's probably a ninety percent chance I would lug
it's and that's been completely honest, like yeah, and it's
a long time to to not be intimate with anyone,
And then so is it more for Am I on
this for my own well being?

Speaker 4 (58:52):
No, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
I'm on this so I can try and rebuild that trust.
But even doing that, it's still there's still things that
I do wrong, and it's just, yeah, I think it's
one of those things that I kind of need to
be otherwise it's just going to put me further behind.
It's going to give her more when it comes to
the separation to use against me, or if it comes

(59:14):
to a separation that she'll use against me.

Speaker 4 (59:16):
It will always I'll be the enemy. I'll be that.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
I'm always on one hundred percent at fault as it
is as it stands now, So I don't need anymore.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Can we can we check that with Kate? Do you
think that Dean is one hundred percent the one responsible
for everything that has happened?

Speaker 3 (59:35):
Not one hundred percent? No, I like I have admitted
that my resentment, and I guess not dealing with everything
better earlier has also contributed. I tell him that, Yeah,
his initial actions, I guess is what caused all of that,

(59:55):
or there's a reason for the resentment, But no, I
acknowledged that the resentment has also contributed. But yeah, I
thought at the start of this year too, I that
I guess I've suggested at times. So we should go
back and just, yeah, like you say, start from the
beginning and try and spend time together, and I guess,

(01:00:18):
try and work on some sort of emotional connection, even
if that is a friendship. And what happens, No, he
tells me that he's a sexual person. I'm an emotional person.
If I am not going to work on the sexual
side of things, why should he work on the emotional
side of things. But then we just here and he's

(01:00:40):
taking this medication, which I was never I never thought
was a good idea because again, I feel like it's
almost just like a bit of a band aid solution,
Like if it's stopping me physically, but if he's still

(01:01:00):
mentally wanting to do that and you're not doing anything
to change that or not working on our relationship at
the same time, what is the point.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think it does make sense. So
what you said, they're dean around. If it's something that
you find helpful in order to be able to put
in the work and the time, I guess that it
might take for the repair to happen in the relationship.
That makes sense. Do you feel so what Kate just
said there where her experience when she's tried to bring

(01:01:33):
this up with you around sort of rebuilding and starting
from the beginning, is that you have been resistant to that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:39):
I wouldn't agree with that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
On There's only one really real time where she's actually
tried to organize something, and that was just dinner together
or a lunch together.

Speaker 4 (01:01:53):
And I agreed to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
It and just said can we have it like dinner?
And so I probably was quite blunt in it, and
I said can we make sure it's close to home
and that we're not staying anywhere. And the next message
I got from I was now, don't worried again. So
that was about the extent of it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Okay, So what do you imagine happened for Kate there
when you wrote back like that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
She probably didn't think that I wanted to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
She even says that you didn't show any interest, You
didn't want to do it at all, and that's so.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
She might have felt rejected.

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
Well, that's yeah, probably, and not to.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Say that was your intention. There's a difference between an
intention and how things are received here. So I'm not
saying that you rejected her, but it sounds like Kate
felt rejected.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
Yeah, I just felt like he had no interest in
doing that, and I just thought if that's sort of
how he's going to be, And he wasn't really, I
guess speaking to me anyway, I just thought, what is
the point. It's just going to be horrible for both
of us to go and sit there and try and
have this lunch where we can't even have a conversation
without it turning to shit. So sorry, that's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
When we come back, I'm going to ask Dean and
Kate a very important question, is separation on the table?
Stay with us if there's a hope for the two

(01:03:35):
of you, whether it be that it's that the marriage
continues and the relationship continues and gets to a place
that it feels good for the two of you, or
that we can have at least a good friendship and
be in a good place if and when we decide
to separate, do either of you feel like, No, I

(01:03:59):
don't want to even consider a separation. I want to
I really want to save this and try and work
on the marriage. Or are you sort of open to
either or is one of you more out the door
and thinking I don't Actually, I kind of want to
assess what are the two of you coming in here with,
And that doesn't have to be a definite, it's just
what you're coming in feeling like at the moment and

(01:04:21):
what you're open to working towards.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
I feel like we've just been trying to keep it
together for years now for the kids really, but this year,
I guess I've been reassessing what's going to be best
for the kids, and yeah, like I really, I mean,
if there was some some way that we could where

(01:04:45):
we would both be happy, could stay together and both
be happy, that would be great. But I'm really having
trouble at the moment seeing us making each other happy.
And I feel like like our kids are getting older
and they're sort of understanding more about what's happening as

(01:05:05):
much as you know, as much as I try and
shield them from it, I feel like we're not sending
like a good example relationship wise, Like I would hate
for them to think that this is a good, healthy
relationship currently as it is and for them to end
up that way. So yeah, unless I guess things drastically change.

(01:05:30):
I guess I can't sort of see another option at
the moment but to separate. But then that scares that
really scares me too, because anytime we talk about that, Oh,
it's just you know, I guess, yeah, Dean where it's
obviously an emotional time or whatever. But he's told me,

(01:05:50):
you know, it's going to make it really difficult for me,
and it just sounds like it's going to be really
horrible process. So either way at the moment's looking a
bit a bit crappy. Two.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Honest to it sounds a bit like that same conundrum
of feeling like it I want to keep the peace
and make everything okay, so I'll put up with a
situation that I'm not really sure I actually want to
be in, or actually quite actively don't want to be in.

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):
Yeah, it's just it's just the cut, I guess. Don't
want to blow up their world because they're really happy
in a way we're living. You know, it would be
really hard to see them sort of only half the time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
And mm hmmm, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
Just it's just that I'm worried about.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy, and I guess,
you know, I think what these processes can be. Can
it's not really about whether we can make this work
as a couple, it's can we work out what is
going to be best for us as a family and
start moving forward on that in a way that is

(01:07:06):
going to cause at least damage to us as individuals,
to us as a couple, and to the family in itself. Yeah, so, Dean,
maybe if I ask you, where are you sitting in
terms of openness to a potential for the relationship to continue,

(01:07:28):
or do you feel like I'm more working towards the separation.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
Well, I know that I have to drastically change in
order to make this relationship work. I know that I
probably have the drive and the capability of doing the change.
I've work too hard and provided too much for my
family over the length of this relationship to not give
my kids what they deserve and to be there for.

Speaker 4 (01:07:55):
Them one hundred percent of the time. And it's.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
There's so many, so many examples that you can fathers
that aren't there for their kids all the time, and
mates that aren't there.

Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
For their kids, and they'd be more interested.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
In going to the parb or going out and doing
things by themselves.

Speaker 4 (01:08:13):
I don't do that. It's very rare that I have.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Any time to myself, let alone. I'm not a big
drinker or anything like that. I just I literally work
and have my kids.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
That's my life.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
And even when I did have a bit of a
social life, I was still maintaining a business in addition to.

Speaker 4 (01:08:35):
A full time job, which was met with a great
deal of resistance.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
But I done it on the provisions to provide for
my family and that's what I was able to do.

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
And as a result of that, I've been able to
provide them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Something that not many families I'll ever have, and they're
not going to want for anything, and they're in a
very good position, not only now but in the future.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
So are you saying that you are at this stage
still committed to trying to make the relationship work if possible.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
I am big and that I think that's shown through
the fact that I've been willing to go on this medication,
that I've been trying to do everything that it mightn't
be as good. I might be showing as much emotion
as what Kate wants me to show. I might not
speak with her some ways at some stages where with as.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
Much lovers, I probably should.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
I think what isn't taken into consideration is the fact
that I'm factoring a lot of my life around around
what hers is.

Speaker 4 (01:09:45):
She's taken a new.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Role at work which requires her to work day shifts, which.

Speaker 4 (01:09:50):
Has resulted me in working pretty much permanent night shifts.
I'm also an.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Extremely high stressed job and a supervisor in that job,
which is extremely high stress. Again, so not only am
I getting home late from work, I'm getting up early
with the kids to get them to school, and I'm
usually extremely tired because I'm doing a lot of night
shifts in a row.

Speaker 4 (01:10:13):
And she believes it's.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
A personal attack on her, that I'm not in a
good mood, or that I snap, or it's it's everything.
Everything's a frustration. It's unfortunately the emotion I show. She
says that I'm a very emotionless person, but unfortunately that's
only because she doesn't like the emotions that I do show.
Sometimes I do show anger or frustration and their emotions

(01:10:38):
as well. I've also got a like a significant amount
as a result of this. The medication on it does
cause a testosterone build up, which does cause refuse to
be a lot shorter than usual, so that mixed in
with everything else, like, yeah, I'll probably I probably do

(01:10:59):
need to adjust the way that I speak with her
at times, But I also think I get blamed for
the star of conversation when it's not always just me
that's speaking that way.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
So yeah, and so I think what's going to be
really important because I'm going to start getting us into
homework space now, and I think what is important to
notice is that there is a lot of where I'm
hearing both of you taking accountability for certain pieces of
your sides of things. But it's always right there when

(01:11:32):
I said, but it's always accompanied with a butt right,
So it's like, I'll give you this a little bit
of validation, but then I'm just going to straight away
take that back away from you because xyz, you know.
So I think that is a big part of why
some of the repair work that the two of you
try to do, because if we think about, really the
issue here has been that the repair either hasn't been

(01:11:52):
happening or the attempts have been failing, and that's sort
of been the big snowball thing. So it's looking at
what is it when I try to repair or when
I try and do something to create a positive sentiment.
Is there a backhanded part to that where I accidentally
sabotage myself If I'm trying to take responsibility, do I
need to also add my piece in there?

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
So it's sort of like I'll just pick Dean because
that was the last thing you said, right, But I've
seen it on both ends, but you know where it's like, yes,
I know I should talk. I know I need to
make a bit more effort to talk a little bit
more gently, or you know, manage my emotions a little
better so it doesn't come across in my tone or
whatever that might be. Being able to just full stop
that there, like there doesn't need you know, so, particularly

(01:12:38):
if you were talking with each other, I would just
if we can try and withhold that second part off. Yeah,
but I do it because xyz, because we can get
to that part later. Like that can be something that
you address either in a different conversation or later on
in that conversation. But if you put it in that
second part immediately after the other person has just gone,
oh well here we go, it's blamed on me, you know,

(01:12:59):
like that's all the other person's going to hear out
of that, and they don't hear the validating bit. So
it's that negative sentiment override thing that happens where it's
like the positive bit got drowned by the negative bit
and so we don't see it and hear it. So
in terms of homework, and I guess I'm putting that
out there as just a sort of little post it

(01:13:20):
note to have in your mind of when I am
trying to take accountability for how my partner has experienced
something that I've done. Can I just full stop it
at my part and not have to go into their
part of lack? But you did this and it was
because of that, Just say you're a bit full stop
and the sentence okay, so for the two of you,
just having a bit of that in the background. But

(01:13:40):
if I am to set a bit more broader homework,
and this is just a kind of between now and
when I see you guys next, to see if we
can even simplify things as far back as you can
and create instances where you can just start to build
a bit of a friendship, any type of positive interactions,

(01:14:03):
and even if you limit your interactions to just the
kids and these particular interactions between the two of you
that I'll give you a couple of examples of ways
we can do that, But essentially, we just want to
be having purposeful and intentional conversations that are geared towards

(01:14:24):
things that we might appreciate about our partner, good memories
that you have together, things that you can reflect back on,
you know, when you're like, that was a really good day,
or you know, I was so proud of you when
this happened, or you know, different things like that. And
I know that this is an ask when there's a
lot of resentment and negative things that have happened in
a relationship. It might take some you know, some time

(01:14:47):
to reflect on this stuff, but it is in there.
And I guess if you come back next week and go,
you know what, Sarah, we we couldn't think of anything positive.
That also says something in itself, right like if we
don't have if I don't respect my partner in any way,
if I don't like any of their attributes, any of
them personality trades, I don't look up to them. If

(01:15:10):
that's the case, then you know that in itself is
telling us that potentially this is not something who would
want to pursue a relationship with someone that they can't
identify anything positive about.

Speaker 4 (01:15:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
Yeah, So it's not about sort of faking and making
up stuff. It's just really going you know, are there
things that I like about my partner or appreciate about them,
or wish I had a bit more of this, I
wish I was a bit more like them in this way,
or because I just want to sort of bring it
back to you guys as people, And do we actually
have anything in common or that we might like about

(01:15:44):
each other? Do we have shared values and dreams? Like
do we have doesn't mean you have to both want
the same things in life exactly, but are our dreams
compatible in life?

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
So yeah, And whether that be in conversations or making
time together. But I would be looking to try over
the next week to spend at least three or fo
for moments of time together, whether that be for half
an hour, whether that be we go for a walk
for an hour, whether we just have breakfast together, like
in whatever casual ways that you can do to start

(01:16:20):
having some of these conversations. I will send you. It's
actually a gotman tool. So the Gotman's are a very
well known couples therapists, and they have quite a system
to I guess, work with couples who are trying to repair,
and one of them is called love maps. And the

(01:16:40):
love maps is really at that bottom level of building
a sound relationship house, that's what they call it. And
the bottom level is build love maps. And that means
do I even know what my partner is thinking or
feeling on a day to day basis, because my guess
is going to be no, because the two of you
have been so disconnected.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
Yeah yeah, we've got yeah nothing real.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
Yeah, like, how do we know what's going on in
our partner's world if very minimal communication? Yeah, So I'll
send you the sort of love map questions, which are
just like good prompts for you to kind of ask
each other. So that could be something that you guys
could do when you're spending that time together. And the
purpose of it is to reintroduce each other to each

(01:17:25):
other's world again, just to kind of have an idea
of like, oh, what type of day have they had?
Or you know what, do I even know that? Do
they even like the same food that they used to like?
Or like, you know, it could be anything, but just
really trying to be like, well, do I even know
my partner that well anymore?

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):
Yeah, which we don't really.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
Yeah, so how do we even have a base level friendship?

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
And just looking at do we respect each other? Do
we have even some kind of connection with each other
where there's care that can be shown? Is how could
I show that I care about their day? You know
that sort of stuff. Dean, How are you feeling on
that just in terms of because there is like the
bigger questions of the sexual compatibility and all of that stuff.

(01:18:12):
I just don't even know if that's relevant until we
start at the bottom and be like, do we like
each other? Are we going the same way in life?
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Yeah, so I'm fine to try anything because the honestly,
the sexual side of things are not there, so I'm
not real concerned about those.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:18:34):
Yeah, that doesn't even I can't say that in the future, but.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
That's yeah, starting back at the start, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
Yeah, because I think no matter what direction this goes,
you've got kids involved, you want to be able to
either break up in a way that is done with
respect and with care or rebuild with respect and care.
Like either way so we've got to just try and
get to a place to go of each direction whichever

(01:19:08):
way it will go. Okay, Yeah, to sum up why
Caton Dean came to see me today, I think is
a pretty layered response. But I would say that their

(01:19:32):
main issue is that they've been in a state of
disrepair for a very long time, and in that state
there have been further incidents that keep re traumatizing or
just repicking at a wound that was originally created, to
the point that now their only way of coping has
been to totally disconnect from each other. So to briefly

(01:19:55):
explain what love maps are. This is an intervention created
by John and Julie Gotman in their couple's therapy model,
which essentially aims to get each part thinking about what
it's like to be in their partner's current world. And
what we know of Kate and Dean is that they
really don't have much of an idea of what's going

(01:20:16):
on in each other's world at the moment and for
the past few months at least, so some examples of
the love map questions that I like are what is
your partner's favorite way of being soothed? What is something
that your partner is worrying about at the moment. What
is your partner's favorite cologne or perfume, What is your
partner's major fear, what makes your partner sad? And what

(01:20:40):
are two of your partner's aspirations, hopes, or wishes. These
are just a few of the sixty two questions that
you'll find in the Gotman Love Map exercise.

Speaker 3 (01:20:58):
I feel like the homework that Sarah Gavis is good. Actually,
it's fairly sort of simple, back to basics stuff, which
is kind of what I've been suggesting off and on
at least for the past few months, or just whenever
we're sort of having those discussions about, you know, what

(01:21:21):
we're going to do and how we're going to try
and move forward. I feel like we really do need
to go right back to the beginning and just try
and completely start over in a way. And I feel like, yeah,
we really currently don't know each other all that well.
It's almost like living with a stranger in some ways,

(01:21:43):
so and it'd be nice to get to know him
again on some level. But I feel like our brains
just work so differently, so I find it really really
hard to know what he's thinking most of the time,
or how he's feeling, how he's processing everything.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
So I'm feeling pretty good about the session. It was
pretty clear, and yeah, I got to fabit out of it.
I feel like the next session, when we come back,
it's either going to be I don't think it'll be
the same as what it is now. It's either going
to be we've made the decisive decision to separate, or

(01:22:36):
or we've got to make a commitment to try and
bring it back from the dead. Pretty well, I'm hopeful
that we can bring it back, and hopefully Kate feels
the same way. Honestly, I write on my brain every
night and with many sleepless nights, trying to figure out
what I.

Speaker 4 (01:22:52):
Can do, and hopefully that just points us in the
right direction.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
My hopes for the next session is to really see
if Kate and Dean have been able to drop out
of defense and open themselves up a little bit to
being able to see anything positive about the other, whether
or not they were able to actually make time for
each other to do some of the homework, because I
think this in itself has been something that they haven't

(01:23:23):
had to create space and time for, and I would
really hope to see that they can have a clearer
idea of whether this is a relationship that they think
is salvageble or whether a separation is going to be
the best outcome for the family. The second part of
Kate and Dean Session comes out in a few days,

(01:23:45):
but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers
have early access to the episode in full right now.
Follow the link in the show notes to listen. This
Is Why We Fight was created by Niama Brown and
Eliza Solmon Nilson. The executive producer is Naima Brown. Our
studio engineer is Lou Hill. Sound design and music by

(01:24:06):
Tom Lyin, editing and sound designed by Jacob Brown. Additional
production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine. Our casting
producer was Lisa Storer. If this conversation has brought up
any hard feelings, or if you just feel like you
need a bit of help, there are links in our
show notes to resources available to you right now, as

(01:24:26):
well as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds.
If you'd like to apply to be on the next
season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link
to the application in our show notes too, and I'm
popping a link to the Gotman love maps I referenced
in my homework for Dean and Kate in the show
notes for you too. I'm Sarah Bays. Thanks for listening.