Kate & Dean [Part 2 of 2]: Will They Separate Or Can They Repair The Rupture?

Kate & Dean understand that before they can begin to heal their sexual relationship and reconnect intimately, that they need to go back to basics and salvage a foundational friendship. But when completing their homework proves more challenging than expected, and when their therapy session with Sarah is interrupted by one of Kate's core triggers, they are forced to ask themselves the hardest question: is there a way forward here or not? 

Listen to the first part of Kate & Dean's sessions here.

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
• Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

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• Host: Sarah Bays
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• Studio Engineer: Lu Hill
• Audio production: Thom Lion and Jacob Round
• Production support: Leah Porges and Coco Lavigne
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a Mumma Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters this podcast was recorded on. This podcast has been
produced with the strongest regard for the wellbeing of our participants,
all of whom have chosen to share their biggest relationship
struggles in the hopes of helping other people. All participants
have been provided with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

(00:37):
Welcome back to This is why we fight, real people,
real problems, real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm
a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working
with individuals, couples, and families. This is part two of
my sessions with Kate and Dean, who were trying to
rebuild their relationship from the ground up after an early

(01:00):
rupture caused a loss of trust. The homework I assigned
Kate and Dean in the last session was to say
their intentional quality time a couple of times throughout the week,
to do a fondness and admiration exercise so they can
reconnect with the things they love and appreciate about each other.
I also asked them to do the Gotman Love Maps

(01:20):
exercise to get reacquainted with each other's wells. If you
haven't listened to the first session yet, go back and
start there. Let's jump back in. Here's Kate and Dean.
All right, guys, so it's yeah, it's great to see
both of you back today. I'm really keen to hear

(01:42):
what happened with the homework?

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, do you want to go?

Speaker 4 (01:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:48):
No, we did the did the homework. It was good.

Speaker 5 (01:52):
It was actually good writing thinking about all the different
answers and writing everything down.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
And I enjoyed the.

Speaker 5 (02:02):
Sitting down, the conversation, actually sitting down and sort of
going through the list of different questions and whatnot. I
don't know, I've Dean really loved the sitting down and
doing it in person part. He was sort of wanting
to do it all via text the night before, and
I thought sort of the whole point of it was

(02:25):
to sit down and actually have the station. So I
said I'd prefer to do it in person the next day.
But yeah, I think he just thought that was me
controlling that whole homework exercise. So I don't know, I
didn't get the vibe that you were really bad that
is word.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
I was okay, it's but I didn't find the answers.
So we've done all the questions, not just a short
amount of them, or we've done the full sixty questions,
and well, the answered the questions very much about where
priorities lie in.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
The relationship and can you explain to me what that
meant to you.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
I think that when I had to answer the questions
for Kate, they're all extremely catered to family, a lot
of the kids, and not so much the relationship, which
is kind of what the relationship is like. She was
a good mother and able to do stuff with the kids,
and my tribute I'll take from her is showing being

(03:27):
more emotionally connected.

Speaker 5 (03:29):
To the kids, whereas, yeah, I guess mine was more
that I wish I had some of his work ethic
and like drive at work. But yeah, the four questions
that was to do with traits are like most about
my partner. Yeah, I sort of said more things like

(03:51):
how handy is is sort of able to fix anything,
and that he's able to stay like level headed in
stressful situations. Not so much, I guess, relationship wise, but
outside about relationship. But yeah, then I guess a lot
of the favorite memories and whatnot for both of us
were just the birth of one with just the kids,

(04:14):
stuff to do with the kids, So we didn't really
I mentioned a holiday that we had one holiday that
we had kid free holiday, but I think.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
It'lls was just the kids.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean, and the point of this
exercise is, and I think you know, Dean referenced it
just there. It does show us where our focus has been,
where our minds have been, where our energy has been,
and has it been towards each other as a couple,
has it been towards the kids?

Speaker 4 (04:42):
Often it is, has it been towards work?

Speaker 2 (04:45):
So yeah, it will highlight that kind of stuff inevitably
as we go through those answers. So for you, Dean,
you were saying that it sort of it really showed
you that Kate's energy was more directed towards the kids.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
Is that what you took out of that?

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, I always knew it was like on knew where
I kind of sat if it came to a ladder
on you where I see lab pretty low, But that
just kind of highlighted it.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Were you hoping to have seen a bit more of
that interest and energy directed within the relationship.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
That probably comes from my answers, like I was probably
a little bit surprised with a couple of her answers
with fixing stuff because it's like they're being able to
build things that hasn't always been any appreciation or anything there.
But okay, I was a bit surprised at those answers.

(05:40):
But yeah, I was probably when I thought I'd put
a lot of thought in the mind and I just
really couldn't take anything away from how she's herself or
was more like how she's mother.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, so it sounds like there's not been much of
that relationship stuff between the two of you, so there
wasn't much to pull from other than you know, you
see a lot of Kate as a munch Yes, yeah,
would you agree with.

Speaker 6 (06:05):
That, Kate?

Speaker 5 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, I admitted that I probably did, even like
a long time ago.

Speaker 3 (06:14):
I guess when.

Speaker 5 (06:15):
Things weren't going so great with us that then I
just threw myself into the motherhood role because I didn't
feel like I guess I was sort of failing at that.
I thought I was doing quite well at that, and

(06:36):
I was more confident in that role and it was
just something to focus on really when things weren't great,
like in our relationships. So I guess that's we carried
on throughout the whole Yeah, last however many years, So.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah, And I think that's a really common one. You know,
when there is tension in the relationship or when there's
difficulties between two parents that we do kind of shift
focused to a different area and whether it's work, whether
it's the kids, that becomes the area in which we
get our confidence, that we excel, that we get that
kind of need met of feeling like I'm doing good

(07:17):
at something, I'm doing well at something.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely been the gay.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
And Dean, would you say, how do you so?

Speaker 2 (07:26):
I mean, obviously there is sort of the infidelity stuff,
which was a way of I think you were mentioning
last time, of feeling cared for, important, nurtured, you know
that sort of thing. Would you say you also like,
is it the fixing stuff, the property work, that doing
stuff around the hat like that?

Speaker 4 (07:45):
Is that another way of you like if we think
of where did your energy go?

Speaker 2 (07:48):
So Kate's energy got put into the kids, and not
that you didn't put energy into the kids, I'm sure
you do, but where would you say yours went?

Speaker 1 (07:57):
So it kind of varies, like I'm not well, I
don't do things just I'm not one to sit still
constantly doing things to provide for family and doing things
to help out at work or as a supervisor role.
I'm constantly doing my stuff at work and around the
house here, it's just that, yeah, I don't really I

(08:22):
get My satisfaction is giving my kids things and things
that other kids don't have. And I've come to acclimatize
myself to not getting appreciation anywhere else or not expecting
it anywhere else, which I understand that Kate's tried this year,
But as I said that last session, that's really highlighted

(08:42):
how much hasn't been there for the last tender twelve.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, And has that been overshadowing it then, because I
guess in some ways, yes, it might highlight it, and
then there might be grief, anger, pain, hurt, whatever, a
response to the fact that it's really not been there
for so long. But does that then overshadow the Okay,
there's improvement she's trying or can you still kind of
hold and see.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
That it probably have your shadows the fact that it
hasn't been there for so long, and when we've sat
down prior to having these and having discussion about what
we can bring to the relationship, and that's what she's
prepared to bring to a relationship is the thanks and
the acknowledgement of doing things that other than that, she
feels like that's enough for her. She shouldn't have to

(09:30):
change how she is or who she is, or she
thinks she's fine how she is in a relationship. So
it kind of shows that either we have to look
at the separation avenue or I have to completely change
who I am in order to make it work.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
I mean, something I think would be important to discuss,
which came up a little bit last session. But you know,
there's emotional safety because we if we're looking at this
ground level stuff that we're trying to do here is
really trying to get the two of you to circuit
breaks some of the negative thought patterns and negative experiencing
that we're having of each other, try and bring in

(10:09):
any positive where we can, aiming to not let the
negative stuff override the positive, which you know, this is
a work in progress, but so that sort of part
one is creating some type of you know, positive foundation,
and then the other side of it is emotional safety. Right,
So in order to be able to move forward in

(10:31):
the relationship, we both need to feel like I can
be or myself or I can express how I actually feel,
and the other person doesn't have to be happy about it, right,
but is able to tolerate it or hear it and
that kind of thing. And so it sounds like I'm
going to get sort of check this with you guys.
But do either of you feel like the other person

(10:54):
can take on feedback or you know, constructive criticism or
a different perspective of yours, or do you find that
you don't get received very well.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
It's definitely not received very well. When I had my
opinion about her, she feels like everything I bring up
with her as a personal attack, and as the result
of that, she gets frustrated and angry and then she
walks away from the conversation.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Okay, so you feel that Kate feels criticized by you
and that makes it difficult for you to bring up
anything that's not positive.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, pretty, or even when I try to be she
wants me to be more emotional, which I've tried to do.
But if it's not an emotion that she wants to
talk about or that she change or is and that's
where the conversation stops, and it's brought up as to
my fault anyway.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
And Kate, what's your experience in reverse in terms of, yeah,
feeling like you're able to bring up things or say
things to Dean.

Speaker 5 (11:57):
I think he really lacks any empathy. He always thinks
that he is right and his opinion is is right,
and he just cannot see anything from my perspective or
understand how some of the things that he says or

(12:21):
some of the things that he does make me feel.
And we have these conversations. Yeah, I do want him
to be, you know, to have some emotion, sure, but
we just have We seem to have the same conversations
over and over and over again, and we go around
in circles and we just achieved nothing. So when he says,

(12:44):
yeah that I do walk away, I do. I tend
to get to a point after hours sometimes where I
just can't do it anymore. So and lately it hasn't
even really been anger. I get, yes, I get frustrated,
and I just put my foot down and say, I
just cannot have this conversation anymore. Because, yeah, the last

(13:08):
couple of times I've been at work and we've met
for a coffee or something and it's just ended up
being god hours of achieving nothing really because he has
his point of view and I explained my point of view,
and they just are completely different and we just get nowhere. Really,

(13:33):
it is frustrating, frustrated.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it is for the
both of you. I can imagine that if you don't
enjoy that process at all.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
I know, so I really don't enjoy.

Speaker 5 (13:45):
I think that's why I try to avoid even having
time to ourselves at the moment, because anytime that we
have like half an hour, So I really enjoyed going through,
you know, the half an hour that we were like
just talking about different things and like real learning some
stuff about each other that I guess we've forgotten or

(14:07):
has just been pushed to the side, like trivial sort
of things, you foods that we hate and stuff like that.
I enjoyed having that conversation because it was just a
change from just getting in there and you know, discussing
all these major issues and achieving nothing.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
And Dean, I mean, I guess my question to you is,
how did you experience the love maps stuff, which was
more yeah, that kind of yeah, getting to re know
each other or different things we may and some of
it might seem trivial and like, you know, okay, great,
I know what her favorite food is, you know, so
we can look at it on that level. But actually

(14:47):
I think Kate identified there. The point of it is
in order it is to circuit break some common patterns
that we keep doing in our conversations and our conflict
or argument, and the other is also to actually just
kind of step back into our partner's world a bit more.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
But how was it for you?

Speaker 3 (15:07):
And?

Speaker 1 (15:07):
As Kate explained, I was probably probably felt a little
bit controlled by her.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
When we're how Yeah, I wanted to go into that.
That's interesting. So you were asking to do it over text?

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, yeah, because I'll probably find text a little bit
easier to communicate because nothing can get really misconstrued about everything.
I'd also already answered their questions, like I'd already I'd
written down all the questions and the answers Kate and myself.
I think it probably it might have warmed her a

(15:40):
little bit, and she just canned it. It wasn't a
let's just do this goes now, I'm done tonight, I'm
done talking about this.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Good night.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
That's how it was.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
H Yeah, so it felt like an abrupt shutdown.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
I didn't feel like it was just have a good shift,
good night. It wasn't a shutdown.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, okay, And that's not me questioning whether it was
or it wasn't. But you also experienced it as a
very abrupt way to shut something down. So I guess
the question here is how did you take the request
to do it by text?

Speaker 4 (16:14):
Like what did you make up about it? Or you know,
it went somewhere.

Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, I mean I'd already done all the answers as well,
But I just thought the whole point of that exercise
was for us to actually spend some time trying to
spend some time together in person, and didn't think we
would get as much out of it by a text.
And he just kept going on and on and on,

(16:41):
and I do at times I do again with the text.
So it's like, how find it's like going person conversations
Sometimes there is just text like NonStop all day, all night,
and I'm trying to get to a point where I'm
like I just want to sleep. I just can't deal
with it anymore. I'm in the conversation. So yeah, I

(17:01):
did do that, I said at that point, because he
kept going on and on and on about no, let's
just I want to do that now, and I don't know.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
They got to a point where I.

Speaker 5 (17:09):
Was in bed and just wanted to go to sleep
and didn't want to deal with it anymore.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
So I just said, I am ending the conversation. Have
a good shift.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
So when you guys can't come to a resolution or
an agreement, yeah, Yeah, your sort of default, Kate, is
to then withdraw because otherwise it seems to just continue.
So it looks like Dean wants to keep pushing for
some type of resolution and you are in it for
a little bit, and then when it becomes to you
clear that it's not going to go anywhere, you then withdraw.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Is that yeah? Pretty much?

Speaker 5 (17:41):
Yeah, because I feel like sometimes when we do have
the conversations in person, we get to a point where
it feels like there will be some sort of resolution,
which is usually, to be honest, that it's probably you know,
separation is probably the best option for us, and then
it just something happens or he starts to then I

(18:02):
don't know, completely change his tune about different things, and
we just get dragged.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Back to the same point that we were out at
the start and we achieved nothing.

Speaker 5 (18:12):
So it's yeah, I do I get frustrated and and
say I just like like I need a break, like
I need I need to end the conversation before it
drives me like insane.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
It feels like I'm just bashing against for the most while.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, and I do think there is something to say
about having certain conversations time limited, particularly if there isn't
a resolution, because there's a point where there's useful discussion,
and then there is a point where if one or
both of us is disregulated, the conversation is a complete
waste of time.

Speaker 4 (18:46):
Like it's not it's not going to go anywhere good.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
The frustrating part is is if you're the one still
wanting to seek a resolution to feel you know, the
withdrawal can feel like you know, dismissal, abandonment, you know,
not caring, you know. So it's I think trying to
find a way to do that that doesn't feel so
abrupt and and shut down. But for that to work,

(19:10):
the other party, So for example, Dean, there needs to
be an allowance on your end of allowing there to
be an end that doesn't feel controlled, because I think
the control thing is a big thing for you where
it gets you in that defensive mode. Right, So you're
very sensitive to the idea that Kate is controlling something.
And that's not to say that she is or isn't

(19:32):
controlling it, but that's clearly something that gets in the
way of the two of you communicating.

Speaker 6 (19:37):
Well.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Is the minute you sense this feeling of control, I
don't think it goes well for you in that dynamic.
So is it controlling for Kate to not want to
do it by text? So let's just say you want
to do it by text. Kate doesn't want to do
it by text. Is that her trying to control it?
Or is that her just having a different experience or

(19:58):
she wants something different from you?

Speaker 1 (20:00):
So it's probably well if she doesn't want to do it,
which is quite common that we don't want to do
things the same way, it's yeah, that's our history of
sharing that if we don't, there's no made in the middle.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
It's her way, Okay.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
So it's the lack of compromise that feels like it's controlling. Yeah, Yeah,
So this is just a great examp because it's a
silly and easy example. But in terms of let's say
this is an exercise for you to do and you
want to do it by text and Kate wants to
do it in person, how could we navigate that in
a way that would be a compromise between the two
of you, Like, now, I know the time is passed

(20:36):
and whatever, but just even in today, how would you
try to negotiate that right now? If the two of
you had to do some exercise and you both need
to figure out whether you're going to do it by
text or in person, I.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Probably just ask Kate how she wants to do it
and do it that way.

Speaker 5 (20:57):
I guess I would to ask the reasons for him
wanting to do it a certain way and try and back.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
To that in and then explain my reasons for wanting
to do it a different way.

Speaker 5 (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, And how we would then come
to a resolution, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Well, no, I mean I think that that is the
main part of the process that helps move the needle,
is understanding why my partner wants to do something a
certain way. Can and more than just a surface level
of like I've had a shit day and I want
to do it over takest like that.

Speaker 4 (21:36):
That's fine, it's not a bad reason.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
But I think trying to understand it on a deeper
level helps build empathy on the other person's part, and
then you're more likely to compromise. Whereas if if you're
not given enough information or you haven't asked enough questions,
it is kind of like, why would I move from
my position?

Speaker 4 (21:52):
I don't. You haven't given me enough to move for my.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Position, And I think that's where the two of you
are getting stuck. Neither of you are getting enough from
the other that makes you willing to kind of compromise,
although it does sound like Dean that you end up
just kind of going all right, whatever and then doing it,
but then resentfully, you know, feeling controlled, which is not
ideal either, because the point of the exercise isn't for

(22:15):
you to feel resentful and controlled while you're doing it.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
And that's okay that.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
That's how it happened, but yeah, it would have been
probably much more useful for both of you if, yeah,
there was a way to have come to a compromise
on that. So if you were to share a bit
more around actually for Kate to explain a little bit
more around why you wanted to do it in person,

(22:40):
like why it was important for you to do it
in person, and I'd like you to try and use
some vulnerability in your answers, like being vulnerable.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, Oh, it was just I just thought it was
a good opportunity.

Speaker 5 (22:51):
So I've been saying, oh, for a long time that
because we're so disconnected, we really just need to try
and go back to the very beginning essentially, and try
and figure it a way to like each other again
and has some sort of friendship and actually spend time
together that we.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
Enjoy, because yeah, lately there's been none of that.

Speaker 5 (23:18):
So I just thought it was a good Yeah, a
good opportunity to sit down and have a conversation about
something that wasn't so.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
Full on and draining and.

Speaker 5 (23:33):
That it feels it feels like we're not achieving anything
and that we're not really enjoying because it honestly feels
like a struggle to sit down and just have a
general conversation with Dean, and it has for months, months
and months, like for the last eight months essentially, I
guess I've been trying to I don't know. Ask we'll do,

(23:57):
We'll do the things that he wanted me to do,
and ask more about things that he's interested in, so
asking about work and things that he's been doing, the
property and whatnot, but just getting nothing essentially. If he
answered me at all, it was just very sure, you know,
how was your day?

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Like why?

Speaker 5 (24:17):
Like it was just nothing. So I just struggle to
even come up with things to talk to him about
at the moment. So I just thought it was an
opportunity to sit down and do that.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, and being in person was something that was important
to you in terms of being able to connect that
when you felt you could connect better, Like what was
it about being in person that was important?

Speaker 5 (24:39):
Yeah? I thought it might be a way for us
to connect in some way, because.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
Do you feel like text messages don't do that?

Speaker 6 (24:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah, no, I don't think they're the same at all.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Okay, and then we've got Dean who it sounds like
the text message is actually a sort of like a
safety a safe place for you where I feel better
able to express myself and it not be misconstrued.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Pretty well, and get the opportunity to actually finish what
I'm saying as well, because a lot of the time
when I speak with Kate, I might say a trigger
word or something in a sentence and she'll just come
straight in and feel attacked and I can't even so
I just stop and I just ask her what was
I going to say next, and then she'll go, oh,

(25:28):
I don't know. Well, if you let me finish, then
you'll understand what I'm trying to say. So that's probably
a fair reason why our conversations go around into circles
as well. And that's why I thought that at least
with at least to text my answers, if I got
any answer wrong or if I should have known any
answer that I didn't, I could possibly explain myself a

(25:49):
bit better without getting attacked.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
So there were actually, it sounds like there was some.
It's almost like you're worried that you were going to
get in trouble if you've got something wrong.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Pretty well, like it it would have been. That's every
decision or every answer or not so much answer to this.
But everything I do seems to be are constantly criticized
or I'm going to justify it or what. That's just
how this relationship has been.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Unfortunately, when we come back from the break, I'm going
to dig in a little deeper to Dean's family of
origin to try to understand how his early life might
be impacting his relationship with Kate. Now, stay with us.

Speaker 4 (26:35):
How familiar is that feeling?

Speaker 3 (26:37):
Like?

Speaker 2 (26:37):
I want to take us to sort of family of
origin kind of stuff because sometimes, I mean, inevitably our
the way we grow up, you know, is the blueprint
and shades how we perceive and experience and create relationships,
and I just want to know we can just sort
of even on a more high level, the feeling of

(26:57):
being criticized or always doing something wrong, or not being appreciated.
That's those sort of three topics, being criticized, doing things wrong,
and not being appreciated, these themes from your earlier life
or not.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
I think I was appreciated and I was always in
a very good family dynamic where the role models in
my life took the time to teach me to do things,
which is why I can do things now, which is
what I'm trying to pass on to my kids as well.
I've obviously picked up bad traits as a result of
it as well. It's stubbornness and if you addedness at times,

(27:37):
and I acknowledge that, and that goes through with work
and homework, but it's I think it's probably had the
effect that it's not like I am expecting a reward
or anything like that, but just a good job or
something like that is just something that my parents and
my grandparents would always about very much on the forefront

(28:01):
of being supportive if everything with everything like that. And
it's just then when I work now out working and
providing more and more, there getting less and less.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
I think it just really so it's more of the
stark difference. It feels like a stark difference. Yeah, So
it's not that it feels familiar, it's that it feels
so unfamiliar. And in Kate's efforts to try and improve
on that front, and this is where there's a bit
of a catch twenty two or she's between a rock
and a hard place, is that their efforts that she's

(28:34):
making to improve are being overshadowed by the historical lack.

Speaker 4 (28:40):
Of appreciation that you've been feeling.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
So how can you support Kate in doing it in
a way that you can receive, I guess because you've
got to be part of the solution. So if Kate's like, Okay,
I recognize that I haven't been acknowledging and appreciating you.
I'm going to work on doing that, and she starts
doing that, and then that's kind of triggering you to
feel even worse about the situation. What do you think

(29:03):
would help?

Speaker 1 (29:05):
I think when I when I bring up the reasons
why I'm not very well receiving of the or I
say that, it really highlights it, like it yeah, And
she jumps straight into defense mode and says, oh, well,
I don't think I was that bad. I wasn't that bad.
I didn't show it this way. And then when I ask,
like when did you how did you show it or

(29:25):
what did you do to show it, she can't asoutly answer.
So it's she's she's very happy to bring up the
past when it comes to anything I've done wrong, but
gets very defensive as soon as it gets thrown back
on her.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, okay, And I think that this is one of
the things that is very common between couples, right. It's
the defensiveness which gets in the way of any further
constructive and it happens on both ends.

Speaker 4 (29:53):
Right. So if there's.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
And I know that there are things in the past
that's sort of the original issues that kind of created
the lack of trust and confidence for you, Kate, that
haven't been so much resolved. And then I know that
it kind of took a bit of a turn where
I think the sexual stuff was a big distraction from
actually working through that original problem. It was kind of

(30:17):
like a like a band aid that kind of made
the wound worse, if I'm to put it that way,
like an attempt to repair that yeah, sort of didn't repair.
But and then now we're sort of left in the
place where the band aid's been ripped off. The wound
is just here now in terms of because you stopped

(30:38):
all of that stuff. I think you said at the
beginning of the year, was that right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
And now there's no more band aid. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah, I mean, I like I say like I say.
The Dane, he.

Speaker 5 (30:52):
He always every time we talk about something, he seems
it's like twenty times worse in his mind. So I like,
I've never not said thank you and whatnot things. I
just I feel like I just haven't shown appreciation in
the way that he wanted me to, which over the

(31:16):
past few years, and this is how all this started
was that he was wanting me to do it in
like sexual ways, and I think you should just be
happy with the thank you, and I do say that
you've done a good job, So I don't know. Yeah,
every time we talk about it, he always is like you,
you know, for years and years you never even said

(31:37):
thank you, and you didn't do this and this and.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
This, and I just don't think that was the case
at all.

Speaker 5 (31:41):
But I said there would have been periods, yes, when
like immediately after something had happened, that I probably wasn't
as appreciative as I could have been because I was
in that mind frame of black well you know, stuff
to you basically, But yeah, that never lasted long.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
Could there be that?

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Can I check two different realities with both of you
and see what you think? So, Dean, could it be
true that Kate struggled to feel appreciative and didn't show
appreciation as much as she could have or should have
because she was feeling pain, hurt, rejection, anger, whatever it

(32:24):
was based on the infidelity stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah, I understand while she's held under that resentment for
ten years, that's to the point where it's become who
she is towards menia. Yeah, and that's I've got one
hundred percent blame for every issue that she's got as
my fault.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
So okay, but just to pause it on so it
makes sense to you or you can see, yep, if
that's how she was feeling, like, if she was feeling betrayed, hurt,
angry at me, you know, unresolved all that stuff, it
makes sense that she really couldn't be appreciative of me
the way I needed yep. Yeah, And then I guess

(33:06):
if we if we reverse that on the other way
for you, Kate, I think there's something there around because
we want to be valid being able to you can
validate Dean's experience of not feeling appreciated without going, oh yeah,
I never said thanks once in ten years or whatever,
you know, like we you don't have to agree that
you've never said thank you've never shown anything, but you

(33:27):
can validate that he feels very unappreciated, and you can
have good reasons as.

Speaker 4 (33:33):
To why you weren't showing appreciation.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
But the reality is, as I can still say, I
hear that you feel really unappreciated by me, and that
that's been really hurtful for you.

Speaker 5 (33:43):
Yeah, and I guess I have sort of said that
this of acknowledge that, yeah, I could have been more appreciative,
and then have tried to do that because that's what
he wanted to do.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
But then that just seems to make things.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
Worse, if anything, because yeah, yeah, he just goes straight
into the spiel about you know, well that just yeah,
you know, shows how I appreciative you have been, and
I'm just I don't know what you want me to do.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I think this is where defensiveness gets in the
way of repair, right, And so it depends what the
two of you want to do, because if we want
to work towards preserving and rebuilding the relationship, then we
both need to drop the defensiveness and be trying to
meet each other's needs, which is from a base level,

(34:33):
that's actually just acknowledging and validating where I've hurt you
and even though I did it because of this and
I have good reason, like one hundred percent, like it's
not about why you did it and good reason or
not good reason, but just am I able to put
my shit aside and go My partner feels this way,
and I can have contributed to them feeling this way,

(34:54):
and I can acknowledge that and you know, get them
to see and hear that I.

Speaker 4 (34:58):
See and hear them.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
And if I'm not able to do that, like on
both ends, if I'm not able to do that, I
don't repair is basically impossible. And so this is where
it's like, yeah, when I noticed the defensiveness get in
the way, all I'm doing is creating that cycle that
you're talking about with a conversation goes nowhere because neither
of us can be vulnerable enough to just go, yeah,

(35:21):
you know what I fucked up? Or like yeah, or
even if I don't feel like I've done it exactly
how you think I've done something, I can see that
you're really angry, and I want to work with you
on why you're so angry and how to not make
you so angry if it's within my values and aligns
with you know, like within reason of course.

Speaker 7 (35:42):
But yeah, yeah, I think well, I think that's the
other thing that we struggle with is like our values
and not much.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Is aligning currently, which makes it hard to.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
That's okay, that's an interesting one. Could we work with
one of those.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Like what would be a value yeah that we could
use as a to work on.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Now, Well, monogamy is.

Speaker 5 (36:13):
It's obviously something that I have now, it's really I
guess the last few years have really driven home that
that is the type of relationship that I want. But yeah,
that doesn't seem to be the same for Dean. I
mean even after last even after last week or what
we did that exercise or whatever on on the Wednesday,

(36:35):
and then that afternoon he was talking about again his
sexual needs and how I guess I can't meet those sexual.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Needs, and how he would potentially look.

Speaker 5 (36:45):
At paying someone to meet those sexual needs, and I
just I just can't.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Compute, you know, in my brain how.

Speaker 5 (36:57):
He would think that that's something, yeah, that is okay,
or that I would be okay.

Speaker 4 (37:02):
With Okay, Well, I'm okay.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Let's work with this one in terms of the different
value around monoga me because is it that is it
that both of you have different values around that, or
is it that Dean doesn't feel like monogamy will work
because of the history and what's been happening here.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
So maybe I'll hear from you, Dean, what is it?

Speaker 6 (37:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Is it that actually, you know what, I'm not a
monogamous person, and that's not the type of relationship I
want to be in. Is it that or what is
your thoughts around monogamy again.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
It's a thing where I need to develop an emotional
relationship with Kate before anything will even ever happen again.
Which the progression which our relationship takes to do things,
and any change takes to do things usually goes over
a number of years. And I just don't think that

(37:54):
it's less. She's still not ready to move on from
the resentment, like it's still there.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
I think because it hasn't been repaired. Yeah, Like I think, yeah,
And that's right. I think you can that it is
still very much there. But it also sounds like there's
been a big avoidance of proper repair yep, So if there.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
Was, yeah, yeah, I guess yeah, it's been there from
the start, and it's felt like, you know, we've maybe
made it a little bit of progress, and then something else.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Has happened and it's just been my dad.

Speaker 5 (38:29):
Yeah, Like there's been more stuff obviously as recent as
early this year or even yeah, last week.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
They kind of play into it as well. So it's
it's hard.

Speaker 5 (38:41):
It's hard to to repair when there's and to move
forward when it feels like there's still things that are
popping up.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Guys, I'm just interrupting this session to help you understand
what you're about to hear, because often in therapy there
are non verbal cues that I'm reading, and sometimes real
life happens during a session that can't be ignored. And
that's what's happened here. Kate glimpse of Dean's phone with
an alert from an employee at a gravel delivery company

(39:12):
saying that they were out the front with a delivery.
But the employee who texted Dean happens to be someone
who Dean spent some intimate time with previously when their
relationship was open, and who Kate has some very big
boundaries around. This session was paused because Dean had to
jump up to go and accept the delivery. This provided

(39:32):
us a rare opportunity to work through an example of
the challenges Kate and Dean face in real time.

Speaker 4 (39:39):
Okay, back to the session.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
And even during this, I got a phone call pop
up for some gravel that was supposed to get delivered,
which is all I got up before, and that's from
someone that I previously saw or from in an open
style of relationship, and that'll be something that'll be another
bridge that has to cross at the conclusion of this
as well.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
Ah, so you're anticipating an issue that.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Everything I do is an issue you Like, that's completely
this is where I get my gravel from. Well, just
to do work around the house, even that's going to
be that'll take that as me doing something. She'll think
the worst of it, and it'll go back to I'm
not trustworthy, especially after now she knows that I'm not
on the tablets, like, it'll just be a smirrel.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
And how can you support? And I hear because I
hear you already being defensive, like because you're getting ready
for you're getting ready for a fight, right because you're
feeling like a fight's coming, And maybe a fight is coming.
I'm not saying it's a silly idea, but if I
think something is upsetting or angering my partner, if I
come at them defensively, they most certainly are going to

(40:50):
be angry. And you know, so it's almost like, can
I do something a bit different in how I approach
Kate about this, even if it's preemptively, like, hey, I
know you might have seen that person that dropped the
stuff off. Are you feeling okay? Do you are you
worried that I'm doing something like? Can we talk about it?
Is very different to feeling yeah, kind of defensive and

(41:12):
being like I don't want to hear it from you,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
That's just not what he does and said that's what
he does. So he minimizes the things that he's doing
and that makes me feel like shit basically for having
an issue with it. So yeah, Well the name that
did pop up is someone that he said that he
was no longer in contact with, so that's interesting. Yeah,

(41:38):
so this is this is the issue that we have.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, he will now minimize that.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Okay, So how do we not minimize it and still
valid So the thing is is there is a reality
where Dean has Dean has not done anything wrong. Dean
is just getting gravel from this person that there is
a history with, but there is nothing wrong happening here.
That could be one hundred percent truth, But how can
we also validate that. Kate might find that a bit

(42:06):
distras or she might get worried about what's happening there,
or she could struggle with trust like that can also
be true without it meaning that you've actually done anything wrong.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, I can understand that.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
And I think it's like, can I meet her in
that space where I don't have to be admitting that
I've done something wrong. I've just ordered the gravel from
the person and there's totally it's.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
All koshe here.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
But I get that she might feel insecure, that she
might not trust me, and that this could trigger her
into feeling uncomfortable, angry, whatever, anxious.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
So it's separating it from.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
You actually having done anything to have to defend yourself
over but more just oh, that makes sense. This event happened,
it's caused this reaction. Is there something I can do
that can reassure? And that's kind of it if I
was to simplify the process, And of course it is
up to Kate to work on her own reaction to it.
So you know, it's like, if you feel yourself really

(42:59):
just like not able to deal about it, you've got
to do your own self soothing, but allowing Dean to
give you that reassurance if Dean can do that, like so,
and I guess that's what I wanted to ask you, Dean,
like how how you well? Essentially when I when we
when we get off this call when we finish our session.
You're anticipating that there's going to be a conversation about

(43:21):
this and that it's going to be bad, So you're
already setting it up in your mind as a negative thing,
which which would naturally make you come across more defensive
in however you approach it.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, I think that's I think that's right, like I'm
seeing out negative sleepers. Well, really, the timing to auto
gravel couldn't be any worse. But it's that's you know,
that's just going to be she won't won't say things
from my point of view which is being shown, and
it'll just bring everything that I've done up in the
past or come to the forefront again. And even after

(43:55):
a conversations quick eyes as of yesterday, like it's it
was quite obvious to me that she's not interested in
She doesn't appear interested to me. I'm not saying that
in her mind years, but she doesn't appear interested in
fixing whatever this is. She's more settled on the idea
of separating and getting herself set up without me in

(44:17):
the picture. So that's just yeah, that'll just be another
thing that Shielders plan.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah, So if this is all the stuff that's going
through your mind, you know now, and in preparation for
ending this session and then having to face Kate and
this issue, it would be very hard for you to
be able to be reassuring or be open to having
just a normal conversation about it and not be wanting

(44:47):
to protect yourself because if I was thinking all of
that about something, I absolutely would be coming in, you know,
guns blazing or with a really strong shield on, thinking, well,
every time this has happened in the past, it's been
a fight, blah blah blah. So I think if we're
going to be trying to work on the way you
guys manage conflicts, something different has to happen and we
can't keep going well every other time Kate has always

(45:08):
screamed at me when this happened, or Kate has always
you know, gotten upset when this has happened. We have
to be able to give each other a chance to
do something different. So if you go in going okay,
I'm going to guess that Kate is probably pretty upset
about this and that I might need to have to
do something explaining here. But I'm going to do my

(45:30):
best try and reassure her and see if that creates
a better result. Because if you're going in going I
know how this goes, it's going to go to shit,
blah blah blah. Your attitude is going to be that way.
It's going to be defensive and it is going to
go to shit. It almost kind of creates that cycle
to happen. Whereas because you guys are doing this work,
it's like, Okay, we are both trying to do something different.

(45:52):
I'm trying to do something different here. I'm going to
hope that Kate's going to do something different and try
and hear me out and not get angry or you know,
she might she might not. But the thing is is
that she definitely will do the same thing if you
do the same thing. And I don't know for you, Kate,
it's like, what do you need in times like this.
Let's say something happens down the track, same sort of
similar things today, something's popped up, it feels stressful, it

(46:15):
feels not good, it makes you worry or whatever. What
do you need from Dean in being able to kind
of just talk about it, Because I think that's the
thing is it needs to be discussed. Dean needs to
know that you're feeling a certain way.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
Yeah, yeah, And.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
What would you like from him in being able to
hear you or offer reassurance, like, what do you need
in this type of situation for example today?

Speaker 5 (46:38):
No, all honesty would be good in the thing the
first place, because, yeah, the person he's talking about, he
has told me that he doesn't have any for any
contact with whatsoever, so that, Yeah, there's always something that
seems to pop up like this.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Yeah, it's just constant. But will people now turn it around?
He will turn it around and make me out to
be the bad person somehow. He'll say that I'm really controlling.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
Oh, I'm sorry, it's okay to choose.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
I'm just really stick of this happening.

Speaker 6 (47:30):
That's okay.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
I don't think this is an unreasonable reaction. I think
what I want to hear from Dean is, can you
understand why Kate might be reacting like this even if
you have done nothing but order gravel?

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Right? Can you understand that why she's upset?

Speaker 1 (47:47):
I understand why she's upset?

Speaker 4 (47:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Is there is there a part of you or is
there any apology that you feel like you can Is
there a part you can take accountability for is there
in this there's nothing wrong with ordering gravel, but if
there was an understanding that you don't speak to somebody
and that was maybe not communicated, like, is there any
anywhere you can go with accountability on it.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
It's the only place to get graveled from. And she
works in accounts where I have an outstanding account I've
graveled getting delivered this week, So it's a bit hard.
Sometimes it's yeah, well, I can just say that I
don't understand what I have to do when I'm trying to.
I'm doing it so that our houses don't flood.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
But again, it's just addressing the emotional part, right, just
addressing the emotional bit.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, I understand, and I completely understand that that's how
she feels, and I can't There isn't anything there with
that person or any other person. For one, I don't
know when I would do it. I don't have the
ability to do it. But it's just every single time,

(48:58):
as she just there's always something that pops up. Yeah
it is, and it turns into the biggest thing in
the world, whereas that is not the biggest thing in
the world.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
It's just a lack of honesty. It's the fact that
this keeps happening and you keep saying.

Speaker 5 (49:14):
That you have no contact and you don't need to
order gravel through this person.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
That's such a cop out. It's a load of shit.

Speaker 5 (49:21):
There's other places, there's other people at the company that
you can talk to.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
That is an absolute load of shot. Oh what timing.

Speaker 4 (49:32):
Yeah, real real time.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Look, it's not the first time things like this have happened.
Real time issues. Yeah, but that's why I think it's
actually a good opportunity to try and work it a
little differently because both of you kind of have to
be on your best.

Speaker 4 (49:45):
Behavior because I'm here.

Speaker 6 (49:48):
You know, it does.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
It makes it a little bit different when there's a
third party there, and it forces us to be a
bit more thoughtful and try to manage it in a
different way than usual.

Speaker 5 (50:00):
I like, honestly, it doesn't. He just doesn't care. He
doesn't care how it affects me, really, how I generally feel.
And he will, yeah, he'll explain his way out of
it and make out like I am just being absolutely ridiculous.
And when I say again that I would prefer you
didn't have any contact with this person, then he'll say

(50:22):
am being over the top and controlling and just make
it all put it all on me, and just minimize
anything that he's done. That's just standard for him. So
I always end up feeling like the one, the shit one,
when I've done nothing and he's the one that again
hasn't been honest. It's just really frustrating just this pattern

(50:46):
then we go through.

Speaker 4 (50:49):
So, I mean, I think that's it in terms of Dean.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
You know, yeah, what are the bits that I can
hear Kate say that I feel I can understand, I
can take accountability for and just and just put to
the side for the minute any justification or trying to
you know, like we can have already clear in your
mind that you've done nothing, you know, inappropriate.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
All of that's all good, right.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
But right now this has triggered Kate to go into
a spiral of distrust, betrayal, you know, feeling like you
haven't been honest with her.

Speaker 4 (51:25):
So is there it's like, yeah, how do I repair this?

Speaker 1 (51:29):
I just acknowledged that, Yeah, I probably should have told
her that I order to gravel from them, told her
that the gravel was coming today.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
I don't know, and it could be yeah, yeah, So
it could be I realized where I've gone wrong, and
I should have let you know.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
And I I.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Plan in future to let you know if there's something
like this that I need to do that I already
know ahead of time might make you feel uncomfortable. I
want to make sure that I put that as a
priority to tell you things so things don't surprise you
or make you feel that you know. So it's kind
of like acknowledging the bit that went wrong, and then
what is my commitment moving forward around it? And I

(52:11):
think the biggest one is validating that it's okay that
this has made you, you know, like, I get why
you're really upset, and I'm sorry that you're really upset,
you know. So it's allowing her to feel upset about it.
Doesn't mean that you've done anything inappropriate with the grapple person.
That's two different things.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
But I can understand how she would be upset. But
that probably didn't help that we weren't on the greatness
talking terms yesterday afternoon through it today. But again, would
I have told her that I ordered to gravel from there?
Probably not, because I just sit there and go is
this worth the argument?

Speaker 3 (52:45):
Now?

Speaker 2 (52:45):
It's probably not and inevitably it's it's caused the argument.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
And that's usually how it happens. It's my fault, and
I'll try to stay out of trouble, and I'll get
myself into trouble. Why it's not that I'm dishonest, it's
just that I don't I'm not honest in the way
that I should have told her.

Speaker 4 (53:04):
Yeah, so I think the avoidance part for both of
you is been one of the biggest destructors of the
trust between you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
So, yeah, when you're avoiding problems, you you know, avoid
telling information that then makes it look shady or whatever,
and then that crumbles the trust and then, you know,
I think in the other way, we always think. We
talked last session more so about this, Kate, where.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
The avoidance of.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Deans bad reactions or bad moods meant that you went
along with things that you didn't really want to do,
and then you know that harbors more resentment and you know,
so it kind of crumbled that connection between the two
of you as well. So I wonder whether it's like,
if we both stop avoiding the difficult things in the moment,

(53:48):
then longer term we won't have these bigger issues because
I think, yeah, it's sort of like in the moment,
it's easier for me to go along, or it's easier
for me to just not mention that thing, but then
of course later down the track and blow up, here
we go, there's a problem.

Speaker 4 (54:02):
What else do you feel you need, Kate in this situation?

Speaker 2 (54:07):
And so, you know, you've heard Dean acknowledged that it's
not crazy for you to have the reaction that you're
having or for you to be upset. He's given a
bit of a sort of understanding as to why he
did it and whether you agree or don't agree. But
he's also admitted to you know, yeah, I avoided it
in the moment because I didn't want to cause a problem.

(54:29):
What do you what would you like to ask from
him for in future, like if things like this happen all.

Speaker 5 (54:34):
All I've asked of him the so long is just
to be honest, like even while we were doing like
honestly this person, like while we were trying that open thing,

(54:57):
and I said that I just need you to be
honest and sort of tell me about what's happening beforehand.
And this is the person that he did.

Speaker 8 (55:09):
Mm hmmm, And I discovered it I guess myself, and
his reaction was, Oh, I was going to tell you,
which is is just such a load of garbage, honestly,
and just that name or whatever just keeps popping up.

Speaker 5 (55:32):
Oh, it's just so throw Yes, it's like throwing me today.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
I think that's totally understandable. I mean, particularly if it
felt like there was an original hurt with this person.

Speaker 5 (55:49):
Yeah, so I don't actually know what I needed from
him because m h.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
Yeah, it's hard to believe like anything that comes out
of his mouth at the time, it's too honest.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
And now Dean, obviously you know sitting sitting in your
chair would be uncomfortable right now, but you know, nobody
wants to be in that position of like, yep, that's
going up in my face and it looks very bad.
You know, even if I haven't done anything inappropriate with
this person, I've let my partner down in not telling

(56:30):
her something that's now hurt her if I was. Yeah,
if there was an and I'm not sure, but it
sounds like Kate has tried to or actually did put
a boundary in around contact with this person. Was there
a clear understanding around that or not.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Has a clear indication of anyone that had anything within
that that's short a period of time, and it was, Yeah,
I understand, and I should have not looked at doing

(57:11):
things locally, which I did, because she's not going anywhere.
She works at a major company in there. She has
a partner in there that works with us, like it's
and swear I've got quite a lot of stuff like
it's bills are right here from there all the time.

Speaker 6 (57:32):
Right.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Yeah, it's just obviously unfortunately it's not helping matters, not
at all.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
And that's luckily this a little last leader gravel I
have to get.

Speaker 4 (57:41):
But it's mhmm, it's.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Still like she won't believe me, so and I just.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Well, do you not believe him, Kate, or is it
that you're like, is that true that you don't believe him?

Speaker 4 (57:55):
Or is it that you're hard.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
To believe him? Yeah, because this is what he does.

Speaker 5 (58:01):
He keeps, oh where he keeps things from me, and
then they come out and then he tries to talk his.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Way out of them and it ends up being something
else generally.

Speaker 5 (58:13):
So yeah, I find that hard, very hard to believe,
to be honest.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
Yeah, there's definitely other Yeah, there's other people. Even if
he had to go to that place.

Speaker 5 (58:25):
There's other people who could have dealt with, and there's
other places that.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
He could have gone. So it's yeah, hard to believe.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Yeah, okay, so I guess the possibilities are always endless
in terms of why and how the decision making went
down around choosing this place to get the gravel from.

Speaker 4 (58:45):
I mean, yes, it could be that he's.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Having an affair with this person and like, that's not crazy,
that's possibility. It could be that he didn't consider your
needs and didn't really think about you first and just thought, oh,
this is the quickest and easiest option and I'll lauder
it from here, and then maybe as an afterthought, was like,
oh yeah, okay, not great that it should be fine.
I don't know, but you know, so there's a lot

(59:10):
of different reasons, but I guess that you is it
hard for you to to sort of open up to
the possibility of anything other than he's doing he's betraying
me with this person.

Speaker 5 (59:20):
I mean, yeah, I don't think probably anything physical, if anything,
just like the messaging and whatnot, which is what yeah,
you know, they had been doing previously as well, although
there was physical stuff, but he doesn't if it is
just the other the other thing, like that's an issue too.

(59:43):
It just does not factor in my feelings. And honestly,
there was only a couple of people and it was Yeah,
like I was very I made it very clear, and
I said at the start, but you know, that's not
what I want. I don't want to be in that
type of relationship. And like I don't want you to
have contact with those people. If that's something that you

(01:00:04):
need to do, that like we shouldn't be together.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
I mean, that's like so clear. Gotta don't understand, like
why you would need to do that.

Speaker 5 (01:00:17):
That's all.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):
That I've told him, like over and over of this
is not going to be enow M, then we should
just not be together and he can pursue whatever whatever
he wants to.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
So I guess that leads us back to the original
value thing we've started on around monogamy. And yeah, and
I think, so, Kate, you're very clear, I want to
be in a monogamous relationship.

Speaker 4 (01:00:46):
That is all I'm able to offer.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Yeah, and then if we go to Dean and I
think that's kind of where I started and we got
a bit on our way, But yeah, is monogamy something
that you are Is it a possibility for you to
work toward. Obviously there are a lot of things to
work on in this relationship. But is monogamy something that
you want or are open to.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
That's on the even very at the very first start
when we started counseling, when they put a list of
things together what we want out of a relationship. Yes,
I would like to be in a monogamous relationship and
that wouldn't worry me at all. But okay, it's more
the the sexual needs of both parties are met when

(01:01:34):
it comes to Yes, one person won't like doing something
as much as they like doing another thing. But is
there a compromise for it or it does that feel
a person feel open and comfortable enough to put themselves
in a vulnerable position where they can ask for things
without feeling the shame about it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
I think that all sounds completely reasonable if you're in
a relationship where there is trust and safety.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
So, if there's trust and safety, everything you said just
there like, yeah, absolutely, we need to be on the
same page around monogamy or not at least and then
on a close enough page of sexual compatibility. And that's fine.
If one of us likes certain things and the other
one not so much. If they're on two total opposite
ends where we can't get to a compromise, then yeah,
we're looking at sexual compatibility is not really working and

(01:02:25):
if that's going to be the thing that ends a relationship,
then there it is. But if it's not and if
it's okay, yeah, like look, not really that into that,
but if.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
You like it, like whatever, I can.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
You know, it depends how big the gap is, right, Yeah,
But in saying that, we can't even get to that
place without a real trust and safety emotionally, which I
think is what I'm trying to get us to work
on first. And I know that you're saying, so then
there's this worry about not being on the medication and

(01:02:57):
the time that it will take to work on the
trust and security of the relationship. So is that where
that question came up? Around the other day you were
saying where you were wondering whether you could then potentially
pay somebody, if that would that be okay? Was that
you sort of trying to find a way to mitigate

(01:03:18):
any further betrayal.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
I think I was just trying to be a bit
open about how I was feeling about everything, and the
fact that she's not a Kate isn't a sexual person.
She has and that's again that the blame for that
is trying back on to me. That also doesn't mean
I'm not a man that needs it every now and

(01:03:43):
again too. And I approached that with her and I
asked about it because if these the issues that I
have are long term, then that's something that I want
miss out on for a very long time if ever. Again,
so I didn't approach it the right way. I agree
with that. I probably was a bit very abrupt than that.
I should have had an open discussion about it, maybe

(01:04:05):
asked her opinion on it. Yeah, it's just communications, not
my rights't point at the moment, So.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Yeah, yeah, okay, So yeah, I think timing wise probably
not great. And yeah, I think the thing here is
is that if I'm trying to build up trust and
emotional safety, yeah, asking if I can go outside the relationship,
even in an agreed upon in whatever way, probably wasn't
conducive to what you guys are trying to do at

(01:04:37):
the moment. But I get there was a worry and
fear with the news about your health that's meant you're
off the medication. That's kind of changed things a little
bit where it sounded like you were trying to come
to some type of like what do I do with this?
And how do I not let this impact what we're doing?

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Probably, yeah, probably panics a little bit about yeah, worst
case scenario stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Yeah, because I guess my question to you is, OK,
would you be able to sort of it's like parking
it in your brain where it's like for three months,
I'm not even It's not about working towards being able
to have sex again. It's not about do I find
it elsewhere? It's just my focus is really trying to
rebuild the trust and emotional safety in my relationship because

(01:05:20):
I think the minute that the sex stuff comes in,
it creates it destabilizes the work that we're doing. Because
it's like, yes, the sex, the intimacy in a relationship
is always a goal, right, we want to have Everybody
would like whatever levels of intimacy they enjoy to be
present in a relationship. But I think every time it's
being brought up, it's actually dig a hole that you

(01:05:42):
guys are trying to fill from the previous hurt and betrayals, right.

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
That's how I feel. But he yeah, he doesn't. So
I've sort of been saying, I guess that we need
to work on the emotional connection and whatnot, which will
then help with the sexual connection. But he is just
of the opinion that why should I do that if
I'm not getting the sexual when sexual needs.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Mat When we come back, I'm going to give Kate
and Dean some more homework that will hopefully help them
find a way to continue to repair the foundation of
their relationship.

Speaker 6 (01:06:25):
Back in a minute, if we had.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
A kind of sort of be winding the session down
here and looking at what's the what is the homework,
what is the kind of next steps for reflection for
both of you? But maybe it is for you Dean. Yeah, Like,
am I prepared to put intimacy to the side if
it's for the greater good of trying to repair the relationship?
If so, how long for you know, is there a

(01:06:59):
time frame in myself that I feel like I can
or can't commit to that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
If you are worried about being able.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
To do it, like if there's a fear of almost
like I don't know, what if I, you know, reach
out to someone or what if I do something wrong,
then I would really be encouraging that to be some
work to do in you with your individual therapist or
you know, looking at that individually, because there might be
something there around your as a coping skill, right, you know,

(01:07:27):
so as in sex or intimacy as a way of
coping or escaping or distracting. So there's something dysfunctional about
my connection to that if I'm not able to put
it to the side. And yes, it's going to be
a lack like an area of lack and need that
I'm not getting for a certain amount of time.

Speaker 4 (01:07:44):
But if it's unbearable, then.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
That's indicating something else, Like it's indicating that there's an
overreliance on it or that I yeah, there's something there
that is on a deeper level connected to the intimacy stuff.
Is that making sense?

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Like, yeah, that's pain, let's pain stay out so for months.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
And it's not to say, you know, it's not to
say and in three months we get to have sex,
yea like, but I'm just.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
It's not going to.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Well, I think it's good to make that kind of
commitment of like, let's do three months of me. I'm
not going to pester you about it. I'm not going
to ask about it. I'm not going to come up
with other ideas of what I can do outside the relationship,
Like this is really me trying to show you and
commit to you that I'm not going to let intimacy
get in the way and overshadow the repair work that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
We need to do.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Yep, yeah, so maybe the work will be around so
how will I manage?

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
Because I think I think.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
That's going to be the because it's easy to say like, yep,
I'm going to do that, but.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Of course it's going to be difficult.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
It's going to create emotional and physical responses in you
that are going to be particularly under stress, or if
you two have an argument or a bad date, like
you know, it's it's like how am I going to
weather those storms? So if I am to set a
little bit of homework for you, Dean, it would be
around what other coping skills do I have if I
feel unimportant or not cared for, or you know, not

(01:09:24):
enough attention. Other ways I can communicate that to Kate
and have it met in a way that doesn't have
to be intimacy. But if it's like, hey, I'm just
not really feeling, you know, like.

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
You give a shit about me or something.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
It's like okay, and then for Kate to be able
to respond to these positively, because if you know, he's
putting intimacy to the side, which is absolutely needed and important,
but there's got to be positive reinforcement in terms of
so I will make sure that I can be a
bit more attuned to if you feel unappreciated, that I
work harder on that, or if you know, we can
kind of make some time to do things that you

(01:10:00):
also enjoy doing, or you know, kind of I will
work hard at compromising with you. If it's within my values,
then I'm happy to to try and be less defensive
on my end and work.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
With you a little bit more so that you know
it is a give take, but it has to be
both within your values, right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Yeah, yeah, I can do that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:19):
Yeah. And I'm also wondering about spending time together. And
I know you have such limited time, but I think
the real priority has to be, like, let's go.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
And do something. Can we go on a walk, can
we go I don't know whatever, whatever you guys enjoy doing.
Let's go out to eat, let's go you know, see
something we haven't gone and checked out in our area
lately or whatever. But I think there's got to be
some couple time where it's not with the kids and
that you can actually just do an activity and not

(01:10:51):
particularly talk about anything important. Like we're not talking about problems,
We're not talking about anything. We're just literally hanging out
together and we can talk about our lives and stuff,
but we're not talking about our issues.

Speaker 5 (01:11:03):
I mean, yeah, I can definitely do that, and I
would like to do that. I just don't know a
deane can do that. Have you willing to try that?

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Yeah? That's yeah. Yeah, I've committed everything I can now,
so committing more to it is not difficult for me.
I can just keep doing what I'm doing and.

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
Yeah, but will you be it?

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
It's kind of like, can I show up with a
positive attitude.

Speaker 4 (01:11:33):
To these you know?

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
It's like can I we're going to hang out together,
Can I try and enjoy it?

Speaker 5 (01:11:38):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
Because I guess that's the thing is like we're just
if there's no positive interaction between the two of you,
it's very hard to build trust and safety, Like where
are we going there?

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
Yeah, I can make more effort to be a bit positive.
But yeah, that's probably my fault that I'm quite down
at the moment because I don't have much positive is
going on.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
But yeah, but but in terms of that, you're also
blocking some of the You're being the negative behavior is
blocking some of the positive because I get it there
are some things that are keeping you quite down, but
there are some positive things that you could be receiving
from Kate. And I think Kate's work is to really
try to be able to put some of your stuff
aside and give that, you know, so that Dean can

(01:12:24):
have that positive incentive to keep on coming with the
good attitude and not sort of just expecting that well,
if I can't have this, this and that, then well
who cares about anything. We kind of want to stop
the totalizing the black and white, thinking of like, Okay,
there are certain things I can't have right now, but
I can build a friendship.

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
I can try and spend time with.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
My wife and see if we can have a good
couple of hours or a nice afternoon we can have
a laugh together about something stupid, Like there are positive
things that you can have just because there are other
things that you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
Okay, yeah, I'm going to work on that. I'm me
to work on. She tries. I understand that she tries,
and she tries to put things to the side a
better mood and a positive, more positive mindset, and I'll
just haven't been able to have that ability unfortunately. So
I know that's something that I need to work on.

Speaker 6 (01:13:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
Yeah, so even just yeah, just try not to be
so black and white about it, like I don't have
to shut down all of it.

Speaker 6 (01:13:20):
I can.

Speaker 2 (01:13:20):
There can still be some positive and happy things happening,
and there need to be some in order for us
to work through this, all right, Okay, guys, and I
appreciate you sitting through, yeah, the discomfort of even real
time things popping up, which yeah, it does happen sometimes
in sessions, and yeah, but I'm thank you for sticking
with me and trying to work through that in the

(01:13:42):
moment too, because I know that's hard when you're trying
to just regulate yourself in that moment.

Speaker 5 (01:13:46):
Yeah, thank you. How am I feeling about that session?

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
A bit emotional? Yeah, some stuff obviously popped up, like
while we were doing that session. It wasn't ideal, but
I think the.

Speaker 5 (01:14:19):
You know, the suggestions that Sarah had towards the end,
and stuff that we can work on. We're we're helpful,
So I would like to continue the therapy process either way, really,
whether we decide, you know, the separation might be the

(01:14:40):
best option, or whether we try to stay together just
to try and resolve some of these issues and feelings
that we have towards each other, because I mean, even
if we were to separate, we obviously have kids and
we still need to be in each other's lives and
copering and whatnot, and we need to be able to

(01:15:03):
do that amicably for our kids hopefully. So yeah, either way,
I would like to continue with Sarah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
I feel like we've all got a good sort of
good vibe.

Speaker 5 (01:15:17):
And that she's been helpful so far, so I feel
like I could get a lot out of it. Hopefully
Dean feels the same.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Sorry now I'm feeling after that session, I understand that
I have to change my perspective of how I go
into conversations, maybe not dwell on the negatives going on

(01:15:50):
in my life and try to look forward to some
positives if I can find them, and focusing a bit
more on my communication with Tate. Yes, that makes sense.
Tate's probably feeling a little bit happy. Third decision to
focus more on the emotional side of things, especially over

(01:16:15):
the next three months, and not as that's an end goal,
but just as the starting point, and that there is
a fair bit that I need to work on in
order to rebuild, rebuild the trust if it's possible to
come back. Hopefully she thinks it is and that I

(01:16:35):
can keep working well. I think I have been working
on it. I probably just haven't been looking working on
it in the right frame of mind.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
There's no denying that Kate and Dean still have a
long road ahead of them. I think what we saw
in these two sessions was two people go from point
A to point B, and that's enough, more than enough
for so early on in the process.

Speaker 4 (01:16:57):
Because there's so much hurt. There is a lot of.

Speaker 6 (01:17:00):
Repair to be done in this relationship, and that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Will only happen if Kate and Dean both put equal
effort into the process and really do put their best
foot forward. This is why We Fight was created by
Naima Brown and Eliza Soorman Nilsen. The executive producer is
Naima Brown. Our studio engineer is lou Hill. Sound design

(01:17:24):
and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound design by
Jacob Brown. Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.
Our casting producer was Lisa Storer. If this conversation has
brought up any hard feelings, or if you just feel
like you need a bit of help, there are links
in our show notes to resources available to you right now,

(01:17:44):
as well as how to.

Speaker 4 (01:17:45):
Connect with my practice Motivated Minds.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
If you'd like to apply to be on the next
season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link
to the application in our show notes too. You can
go back and listen to part one of my session
with Dean and Kate wherever you listen to podcasts right now.
Thanks for listening.