Leisel & Ellie [Part 2 of 2]: Can They Repair After Estrangement?

This mum & daughter have been asked to reflect on the default behaviours that keep them stuck in the unhelpful dynamic they’re in when conflict arises, and what to seek more positive and helpful behaviours that foster connection and communication.

This session explore how trauma, mental health challenges and other diagnoses can impact even our closest relationships, and what real repair looks like. 

Listen to Part 1 of Leisel & Ellie's sessions here. 

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
• Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

The End Bits

• Want To Be On This Is Why We Fight? Apply here. 
• Host: Sarah Bays
• Executive Producer: Naima Brown
• Studio Engineer: Lu Hill
• Audio production: Thom Lion and Jacob Round

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters this podcast was recorded on. This podcast has been
produced with the strongest regard for the wellbeing of our participants,
all of whom have chosen to share their biggest relationship
struggles in the hopes of helping other people. All participants
have been provided with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

(00:36):
Welcome back to This is why we fight, real people,
real problems, real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm
a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working
with individuals, couples, and families. This is part two of
my sessions with Liesel and Ellie, a mother and daughter

(00:57):
who are trying to reset their communication style and how
they approach each other's needs. The homework I assigned them
was for both of them to reflect on the default
behaviors that keep them stuck in the unhelpful dynamic that
they're in when conflict arises, and what more positive and
helpful behaviors they can replace these with that foster connection
and communication. This conversation picks up where our last session

(01:20):
left off and continues to explore how trauma, mental health challenges,
including suicidal thoughts and other diagnoses, can impact even our
closest relationships. So again, please listen mindfully. If these topics
are tricky for you, if you haven't listened to the
first session yet, go back and start there. Let's jump
back in. He's Liesel and Ellie. I'm really looking forward

(01:46):
to chatting with you guys again today, whether Liesel or Ellie,
whoever feels ready to start off, but I'd love to hear,
maybe before we go into the homework a bit of
a whether there was anything that came up for either
of you after last session. You know, obviously in a
first session we can only get to what we get to.

(02:07):
Sometimes it might bring certain things up, or we might
remember something or think, oh I should have talked about that, yeah,
or even just kind of what emotions you were left
with and a few days after might be just nice
to have a check in with both of you first.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
I mean, we really got a lot out of last week,
and we was fantastic, and we've had a really good
week and communicating really well and did our own work
and everything fantastic. I think the first thing that we
talked about when we went to lunch afterwards, was about
Ellie's trauma. I mean you asked that question and said,

(02:41):
I said, like twenty twenty, but it was way before that.
It really, her first major trauma was in early teens
and could even be as far back as when you know,
I got divorced from her dad. So how was Sally?
Then seven was it? And two thousand and two, so yeah,
about seven. Basically it was a long way back the trauma.

(03:06):
So I think from saying, you know, twenty twenty was
way before that, Ellie did bring that up when we
had lunch.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, yeah, we spoke a lot about like stuff that
sort of happened, and I thought what was really interesting
his mum doesn't always talk about like what happened to
her in her life, and sometimes that gives me context
as to how she because like she was talking about
how she doesn't sort of receive stuff that happened to
her as traumatic, and I got, mom, that's crazy.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
So yeah, yeah, that was.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
And I mean that's interesting in itself because I think
you described Liesel as sometimes giving you more of the
tough love, you know, or yeah, when you when you're
wanting more of that sensitivity or nurturing in that moment.
And I wonder if the tough love Lisel is also
Liesel gives to herself, Like that's how you cope or

(04:04):
manage through what might have been difficult in your life.
All is more of that tough love yeah way of
getting Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
I mean, because we were talking last night about like
my childhood, and perhaps I did have trauma and I
just don't see it as that or I didn't deal
with it as that, and you know, and because I
had an alcoholic father and I loved him and he
was great, but there were lots of traumatic situations where
he would scream and yell at parties and leave and

(04:32):
storm out, and I just didn't never look at that
as trauma. Like on Saturday, we went to the footing
and we ran into this friend of mine and I
had a traumatic situation with him as well, and I
told Ellie about it and she's like, oh my god,
I come like he tried he tried to run me
over in a car, and I was just like, like,

(04:53):
I know, but I didn't. I don't even remember that
as a traumatic experience. I don't know if I just
block it or I just.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
And is this person still a friend of yours.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, well he kind of wasn't, but I kind of
talk to him again now. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yeah, she was really friendly to him, and then she said, oh, yeah,
I've got a story about this guy. And I was like,
I can't believe, Like how just calm you are talking
to me?

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, like we still say hello to the guy that
tried to run me over. I mean that's that's interesting
in itself, you know, like there's a minimization in that
in itself.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of weird. I know, I didn't
for a long time. Yeah, I only have started talking
to him again now, but it's like over thirty years ago.
It's like thirty Yeah, you know what happened before he
was born. Yeah, I guess. I yeah, handled trauma differently
to her, and I guess that's yeah, you're right there.
That is the tough love and how and probably why

(05:51):
it seems that I don't how do I articulate this?
Maybe I don't see her trauma like as she experiences
it way worse than I do, so I don't empathize enough,
or I guess is that the way to describe it.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
It's just a different way of processing things. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's at least so I saw it.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, And I think what's really great about the two
of you having these conversations over the last week and
reflecting on this type of stuff is that it can
help depersonalize the other person's behavior towards us. So once,
like you said, the earliwhere kind of understanding the context
and the background of mum's life and her experiences and
how she's processed things just adds a bit more understanding

(06:40):
as to why she may not respond in the ways
that you've needed or wanted at times, and that it
hasn't been about you, because you know, as kids, we
do think that everything is a reaction to us. You know,
if our parents are angry or they or they you know,
don't comfort us when we need it, we think it's
because we've done something wrong or it's because of our behavior,

(07:01):
whereas actually most of the time it's about them, like
it's about the parent and maybe what they're onunderstanding of
trauma is or the way they process difficult to motions.
It's actually not to do with you at all. So
I wonder if that kind of has helped depersonalize a
little bit instances where Mum hasn't been able to respond

(07:22):
in that more sensitive way.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, Mum was.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, she was quite like tough and like quite angry
growing up and you know, like and it was like,
we're going through such a hard time. Like I don't
I don't hold that against you at all, Like, you know,
it was, it was awful.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
I do you want to do you want to talk
about that?

Speaker 1 (07:43):
I got sent back to work to support the family
when I think Ellie was fib and I had a
lot of resentment because I liked being a mother at
home while I've a little Yeah, basically, yeah, I had
a lot of anger at having to leave them and
having to go back to work full time. And yeah,
I guess that probably caused a lot of friction in

(08:08):
the house and maybe angry a lot. And I had
a really big, hard job, like I was a portfolio
manager and it was twenty four to seven and you know,
I just was trading at night and everything, and it
was it was, it was, it was a difficult time.
And I think, yeah, that's what is that what you're
talking about?

Speaker 4 (08:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, but yeah, like I you know, it was I
just like we weren't that different in age. I guess
it wouldn't have been that much older than me. And
it's crazy to think about that you were like doing
so so much and it would have been really awful,
like yeah, all that was happening behind the scenes and

(08:49):
new little kids, yeah, little kids, but yeah, like you know,
you need such an amazing job, I think, given everything.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
So it makes sense as well that if mom is
the only one that can really be there for you, you
need her more with the expectations are more, and then
when the expectations aren't met, it's more hurtful because we
don't have the other parent to go to, you know,
to kind of meet that needs. So I think it
can feel a lot of pressure on one side, like

(09:18):
for Leezel, it's a lot of pressure to have to
be able to do all the things and do it
all right and best you can. And then on Elie's
side it is sort of more lonely or more hurtful
when the one parent we really can get that support
from missus the mark. Yeah, so it just adds a
bit more strained to the whole situation.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I felt like, yeah, you're responsible.
That was like very much like you go like fight mode,
Like that's your like you know, out of like the
fight flight freeze, like you go, you go fight mode.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, and what's your usual mode, Ellie, So mum goes
in fight and what are you doing?

Speaker 4 (10:02):
I'll go flight or freeze.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
But I realized to when I was when I was
in a hospital that I actually I did spend a
lot of time in fight and I think like a
surprising amount where like, you know, there's been times where
I've been like, yeah, like just working as hard as
I can, which is like something I did get for
a month where I just like I won't stop working

(10:27):
and like I want to be the high achiever and
like I want to be.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Like yeah, hustle mode.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Yeah, I'll just be I'll be hustling and then I'll
like then I was like traveling a lot and yeah,
so it was like just running away. And then more
recently it's been very much like freeze, where I've had
lots of times where I just haven't haven't been able
to do anything and I haven't been able to communicate,

(10:53):
and yeah, it's been really helpful just to like.

Speaker 4 (10:58):
Open up over the past week to each other.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, time together and for earlier to point out to
me about that I do go into mode and that
probably is how I cope and don't. I never even
was aware of that. So it's been a really good
realization for me to see that. Yeah, and for you

(11:22):
with the homework that you gave us to you know,
think about try and be calm before I communicate, and
you know, think about what I'm going to say and
calm down. And and I think that's a big life
lesson for me because I do go straight to fight
and that's how I process things. And that's probably why
I do process trauma, because I just let it all out,

(11:45):
like I say what I think and I don't hold
anything ever. So that's probably not great though.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, But you know, and I think this is it.
What is under the fight is usually fear, right, and
I think that's kind of what we got to last session,
where you know, the driving force I think for a
lot of your worries and then this kind of more
like fight style of communication in trying to manage the

(12:13):
situation with Ellie is coming from this fear of her
ultimately her well being, but ultimately potentially not being alive anymore.
And that's a really huge fear which of course then
gets projected as anger, trying to control, you know, so
getting angry, trying to fix wise it's happening, trying to

(12:33):
fix the situation. Don't do that, you know, trying to
kind of manage things. So realistically, yeah, that fight is
coming from fear, and then that calm down stuff is
really around how do I self soothe and try to
bring the fear down, because like Ellie might be just
coming to me with an idea or something about something,
and my nervous system is responding with this could be

(12:56):
a life threatening event, even though you're logically cognitively not
thinking getting the dog is going to be a life
ending event, really, right, that's not a conscious thought, but
your nervous system is obviously very sensitive and gets triggered
to anything that you feel might be impacting Ellie in
a negative way.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, Yeah, yeah, yeahs as trivial as that
dog argument seems, Yeah, one hundred percent right, that's what
it was. I was seeing drama from that or potential
problems from that. And yeah, rather than just let it

(13:39):
play out like you said I should, I straightway want
to control.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
But it's a way to try to protect it's just
not a functional, healthy way of trying to protect. But
it is, you know, so the intention isn't nasty, controlling mum,
it's fearful, protective mum.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
But the issue is that's getting in the way of
the two of you being able to communicate and yeah,
have the type of relationship I think that you both want. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, but I feel like I'm going to be so
much more patient now thinking about that and how yeah
you'll receive things, because yeah, we've got we've got a
long history like me doing stuff that like yeah may yeah,

(14:28):
well I was pretty terrifying, like going to Mexico and
like you know, running off and doing that, and you
were like so sure that I was going to die
and then everything was fine and I came back Okay,
But like I think I need to It's few close calls,
but I'm okay. And I didn't tell you about that
until much later, because yeah, but I think I need

(14:50):
to be like, Okay, maybe how is this going to
be received?

Speaker 4 (14:54):
Am I?

Speaker 3 (14:54):
Am I going to freak you out? Am I? Even
the little things that I might not you know, be
yeah and just and just feel like it's it's going
to be okay, reassure you like it's it's like nothing,
there's nothing to worry about.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
I got this.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
Maybe you generally tell me after the.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, but it's helpful. The insight that you know, you
build about yourselves but also each other in the dynamic
between the two of you is great because, like you said, there, Elliot,
it's like, if I'm more aware of why Mum might
be responding in this way, if Mum, let's say, fleesels
too far gone in the anxiety to to sort of

(15:40):
get clear and bring yourself back down, you might actually
be the one Elie to go, hey, Mum, I think
you've gone into fight or I think you're in fear.
Now can you just take a second and then let's
try this again? You know, so like either one of
you can prompt each other like whoever notices not ever.
You know, we can't always have our head on and
be insightful at every moment. So usually the more regulated

(16:01):
person in that situation can be the one to prompt
and sort of just name what the is, because once
you name their process, it's like, ah, oh, we're doing
that thing again. Okay, take a break, get clear, come back.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Is it actually huge for me because I didn't even
realize that my anger is anxiety. I didn't even like
when I get really angry and really frustrated, I didn't
even see that as anxiety where it is, and I've
never even seen it as that. So it's even that's
huge for me because I haven't done therapy before and

(16:38):
I've never really spoken to anyone about how I process things.
It's been huge for me to learn all this just
even in these short sessions. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, but you know, it's I think it's amazing, you know,
to have a mum actually head this process and want
to initiate this therapy, you know, with their daughter, because
it's not not that it's no one does it, but
it is a lot less common. A lot of the
time you see the young person really wanting to do
therapy with their parents and offer the parent and this

(17:08):
is you know, also a generational thing at times. But yeah,
sort of being a bit more resistant. So I think
the fact that you're open to it, I mean, you know,
the two of you have so many more years left
of a relationship together and why let it be stuck
in these patterns that aren't helpful. So I think that's yeah,
fantastic that you're really open to it and you're you know,
engaging in it. And this is where I think the

(17:29):
two of you, I can see the equal commitment and
that's where it's really hopeful.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, because it's been it's
been so great, just like reconnecting the past week and yeah,
going to the footy together and just having our nice
moments again. Yeah, you know, like goops, a lot that
we had to sort of talk about. There was a
lot of yeah, I guess pain, but even just like

(17:57):
getting that out on the table and like all of
the conversations that we've had this week, it's yeah, I
just I.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Love you so much. I'm so yeah, I love you too.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
I'm so grateful you're such a good mum like this, so.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
It's like I try, I'm trying, very trying.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
I wouldn't honestly, like, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Just I wouldn't be as okay as I am if
it wasn't for you. And yeah, like you've done done
the best that you can do, and it's been really
really great. This is really great.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Ye, yeah, it's really good. Yeah, Like even with that
fact that we went to the football together on the weekend.
We haven't been we haven't done anything together for so long.
I always asked Ellie to do things and she always
she doesn't want to. And we had a great time
and we got along, really we got along really well,
and it was it was it was fantastic. We had
a great day, didn't we. Yeah, Yeah, it's really good.

(18:56):
And we like we have not done that for years,
done stuff together because yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
But yeah, and especially this year with everything that's gone
on with me, I've like really really been struggling to
like leave the house. But it's been nice to even
because with the with the work stuff, it's it's ended
up in a pretty nasty sort of like legal battle.
I've had all this like documentation that I had to
like read over and that would have like hit me

(19:22):
for six Like I wouldn't have been able to get
out of bed. I like I wouldn't have been able
to talk. Yeah, I would have really really struggled. But
it just, yeah, like having so much like support this week,
I just you know, I was I was just sort
of like like it was I was fine, Like I
felt I felt fine, Like I felt like I could

(19:44):
talk about it with you and you know, like not
feel so like overwhelmed at all.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, like kind of like starting this process and to
fix our relationships so we can communicate, so you can
communicate with me and you don't have to feel like
you can lock yourself in your room, yeah and be alone. Yeah,
it's really good.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
And I I think the fact that the two of
you have been able to really take on the things
that we've discussed and been very open to looking at
your own parts in the dynamic, I think is so
important because Yeah, often when you get in those two
sort of like you versus me, you know, when it's

(20:26):
not going well and you get in this like versus
me sort of thing, we do tend to kind of
blame or just focus on what the other person's doing
and why they like that, and da da da da.
But I think being able to have both of you
kind of look at, oh, this is this is my
part in it, this is what I do, this is
how I might make it worse has been really helpful
that you were both willing and able to do that

(20:46):
and not just super focused on the other person only
and what they're doing, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, And we also talked about how the fact that
we're both able to apologize. A lot of people can't
apologize and admit when they're wrong, and you say they're sorry.
And we talked about how every big blow up we've had,
every major fight we've had, we've always I've always apologized,

(21:14):
and so have We've both apologized to each other and
able to admit part well, I've always said I feel
like I'm wrong, this is what I did wrong, and
I've always said it, and I'm okay with that. I'm
able to admit when I'm wrong and I'm not doing
the right thing, and I think that is huge as well.
We talked about that.

Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, you always taught me.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
You always said, like, apologize first, it doesn't matter what happened,
like you be the bigger person, and you're like you
really grilled that into me, and I.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
Like I had it some.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
Like you know, I'm so grateful for that because it
really like it ultimately helped me with my relationships so much.
That's like and a lot of people can't apologize, a
lot of people can't see where they're wrong. And also said,
this is not a funny one who you said, guilt
is a useless emotion and like.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Don't worry because.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
Like, yeah, I don't want but yeah, don't worry about
feeling guilty.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
And it's that actually really helped me as well, because
I think people can get paralyzed by guilt and they
can't admit. They can't like say they're sorry, and they
can't admit where they're wrong because you know that guilt
it's sort of that makes them angry or like you know,
they react Like.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
I think it's when the guilt. I think it's when
the guilt turns into shame. Right, So, because having some
guilt is good because it lets us know when we've
acted outside of our principles. Right Like, if I've behaved
in a way that I don't really believe in, I think, oh,
I'm going to feel a bit guilty about that because
that's not how I believe I should act.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
But oh yeah, definitely. But if I feel not no guilt,
but no, no.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
But I think just when it turns to shame, because
once it's like, oh, I'm a bad person, I shouldn't
have said that, I'm terrible, that's that shame piece where
people get stuck. And I think that's what.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
You're even dwelling on guilt yeah, totally, Like because it's
bad to dwell on it. Yeah, I mean it keeps
something I don't feel guilty about things, absolutely I do.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
That's why that's why you apologize.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, it's just like just like, yeah, you're right, and
that just dwelling on it and shame.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
And turning it into who you are rather than just
something I did that was I fucked up? Okay, like
I'm apologizing, I'm taking accountability, but not that I'm now
a useless, terrible person because I did that thing.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah yeah, yeah, No.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
I think it's a great lesson to teach your kids.

Speaker 4 (23:40):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I'm so yeah, I'm so grateful for it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Thanks selling.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
When we come back, we're going to build on the
incredible progress that Liesel and Ellie have made in just
one week's time and look at what a sustainable framework
for their long term relationship might be back in a tick,

(24:16):
So if we were to think about you know, because
obviously like this is a great start and it's really positive,
but of course, you know, there will be things that
come up, there will be rocky situations or you know,
any I guess have either of you, in starting this
process like had a bit of a think of like
something that either might be coming up or just even

(24:36):
a hypothetical scenario where you're like, look, I know that
we often really struggle in this area, or when something
like this comes up.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Maybe a potential for problems is me judging people you
choose to have relationship with. We talked about that last week.
Maybe that could be sometimes. But if I go back
to what you said, it's her life and she's going

(25:06):
to make her decisions, and I just have to, you know,
be calm, sit back, and change the way I approach things.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
If you were to imagine and I know that your
daughter is not your friend in terms of she's your daughter,
so there's an extra of course, you know, element emotionally there.
But as we it's a transition from you know, child
to adult child. There is more of a closing of
the gap between sort of a mother daughter relationship to

(25:39):
sort of a slightly more almost on the same level
in terms of more of a friendship. Usually, and I
guess sometimes a good way to check that would be
for parents of adult children would be to go, Okay,
if this was one of my good girlfriends and she
started dating someone that I thought was crap, or whatever. Yeah,

(25:59):
how would I approach man? I think a good friend
would tell their friend, you know, like oh hey, like yeah,
if you were really concerned or you know, you would
say something, but you might not come across as strongly
or as yeah, maybe as angrily or you know, in
that sort of protective fear mode. If it was one
of your good girlfriends.

Speaker 4 (26:19):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, so I wonder if you using that as like
a reference point of like, okay, I feel like telling
her to get away from this person and like don't
have anything to do with them, bah bah blah blah.
And that's that, you know, that protective mum instinct. But actually,
if this was my good friend, what would I say
to them? And then trying to kind of have it
in between between those if there is there a middle

(26:42):
ground between those two responses that.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
I could take.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, so for both of us, if I deal with
it in a different way, and maybe if she can
hear it.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Because I'm happy to hear that person sucks and I'm
probably going to agree with you, I know.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
So you know, well, have you found that Ellie's struggled
to take on criticism or negative fear? And I guess
it might have been part of the way it was delivered.
But even when you feel like you've delivered things well,
there still was difficulty.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
M Yeah, I guess.

Speaker 4 (27:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
I'm trying to get better at that because I think
I have been quite sensitive to that in the past.
But yeah, where I will dig my heels in. But
I think, yeah, more more recently, I'm going to fuck. Yeah,
you're probably seeing it, I think, yeah. After after Yeah,

(27:43):
the last sort of a few relationships I've had, I'm
trying to be more trusting of other people's, of an
outsider perspective, and less trusting of.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
H yeah, my own.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
You know, I can get caught up in in the
excitement of something and miss the miss the red flag.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
I guess miss them.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
M Is there a fear early on your end that
if I, like, if I, if I let Mum have
her opinion, or if I if I hear her like,
she'll try to make me do like is there something
around like I don't want to hear it because thena
she'll try to make me do what she wants like
or like that it feels controlling in some way, like

(28:31):
it's difficult to just hear it and go okay. Well,
that's mum's opinion, but I still want to pursue this person,
so I will like, Yeah, what's the barrier to being
able to just hear it?

Speaker 3 (28:42):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (28:42):
I can?

Speaker 3 (28:42):
I can definitely have a bit of an oppositional defiant
thing is Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
That's like.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Something that like I've I've been trying to be like
especially like us as like as old as I am
now or I'm like, oh, actually, that's something I still
do sort of have that knee joke like thing where
if someone, yeah, I feel like someone's trying to tell
me what to do, I'm gonna I'm going to like not,

(29:12):
I'm going to want to do the opposite thing, not
necessarily to like yeah, just just because I don't know,
I just I don't know really yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, So it's a sense of feeling controlled.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, So I think how can yeah, for Liz or
to sort of think about yeah, or even get some
advice from you earlier around how would she be able
to raise concerns about someone you know, which I think
is a normal thing to be able to do in
any relationship with someone we care about, is sort of go, yeah,
how could she bring it up in a way where

(29:50):
you could hear it and it wouldn't feel like she
was forcing you to do anything, but just like, okay,
but she's going to be able to tell me that
she's worried or she thinks this is a red flag
and just kind of hear it and go, okay, well
I'll take that into consideration. I don't have to do
anything with it, but I can hear you out. What
would help in terms of her being able to communicate

(30:10):
it that way?

Speaker 3 (30:12):
I think I think yeah, probably, yeah, I think yeah.
We sort of spoke about this, but like meeting it
with curiosity where if you ask me questions that sort
of get me to the point of sort of like
being like, okay, you know, like this was a bit weird,
like what do.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
You say, what do you see in them?

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Or or yeah, whoever them? Yeah, can you explain to me?

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (30:41):
Or yeah, you know, is this.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
How how how does this making you feel? And like
are you safe? And then and like you know, is
this how serious do you feel this is? Because like
I might go, like, you know, it might be someone
who's like pretty terrible, but it's like I'm not, I'm
not very attached to this person, Like I'm just you know,
like this is this is not going to be anything

(31:07):
serious and and yeah, and setting those boundaries as well.
It's like you've you've set that boundary before where you're like,
I don't want to see this person in the house.
I'm like, cool, that's yeah, you know, I won't. I
won't bring him over. I'll leave that separation and yeah,
you don't need to.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
That was probably it had harsh wow, you.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
Know, but it's fair enough. I was valid.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
Again, like yeah, too too too brutal, too too aggressive
in it, And I acknowledged that that it wasn't the
right way to handle it and like you said, should
have been asking questions and stuff like that rather than don't.
I don't ever want to see him here ever again.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
But I'll respect boundaries though, like I think, like you know,
and I thought that was a fair boundary.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
But yeah, I'm pappy. I'll also like maybe be a bit.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
More if I if I I'll try and become if
I feel like it's it's an unfair boundary, or if
I feel like you should maybe give the person a
second chance, maybe I'll try my best to assert myself.

Speaker 4 (32:22):
In a way that isn't like.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
Running off and defiant, and it's more like trying to
communicate to you like what I see in them and yeah,
why I'm yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah because yeah, So basically when I give my opinion,
Nelly just leaves and it's gone for like two weeks,
doesn't speak to me ever, like that's it. So it's yeah,
it's hard to resolve it when that's that's how you react.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, So the work for Earlie is really trying to
be able to stay in the communication. And I think,
like we mentioned briefly last time, that it's okay if
you need short moments to gather yourself and whether that's
an hour, an afternoon, a day, but kind of no
long like two weeks, you know, no, just sort of

(33:10):
pissing off for two weeks and then yeah. Yeah, but yeah,
trying really hard to stay in it and what that
would mean. And I think even having your own kind
of process around, like trying to look for the concern
under Mum's anger, so the fear, Like so I think
that's what we're talking about, you know, the fear that's
under her anger. So if Mum seemed is coming across

(33:31):
harsh or unfair or whatever, I think trying to look
for what's the fear driving that, and then being able
to continue the conversation with her from that space of like, Okay,
I feel like you've got this really crazy boundary mum,
and I don't think it's right. Can you tell me,
like what are you afraid of? Or like, what's what's happening?

(33:52):
You know, like that can keep the conversation going where
you can still argue your point and be like, I
think this is a bit extreme, you know, but trying
to be like where's this coming from?

Speaker 3 (34:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and now try and be yeah,
I'll be mindful of that and yeah yeah, just more patient,
I think, yeah, from both of us.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, and just to be you know, to add even
more difficulty to the situation, let's say that like you
said that Ellie, that Liesel had asked questions and was
curious found out more about this person that she might
completely disagree with being in your life, blah blah. And
let's say after hearing everything, Liesel, you're still really concerned

(34:44):
and you're really worried for Ellie. I think it's important
that you'd be able to say that, you know, and
be able to say I, you know, after hearing everything,
I'm still really worried or like I just you know,
I you know, would you, Ellie, do you think you'd
be able to hear that? Like, I still think that
you Like my hope is that you don't see this

(35:05):
person anymore. But I get that this is your choice.
I'm here, but I'm scared for you. Like, would you
be able to hear that without it going into that
oppositional space or do you think that still could be
a triggering anything that's disapproving.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
I think I think now I'm going to be better
at hearing it. I think, yeah, in the past, I was, Yeah,
I was like quite protective of people. I was, Yeah,
I was really really emotionally involved, and I think I
sort of yeah, very much like leaned into the relationships.

(35:43):
But I think I'm seeking now that Yeah, there has
been times where you know, it's had to play out,
But yeah, I do need to be a little more
mindful that, Like I can probably get in mesh in
a way where I'm not you know, it's not it's

(36:07):
not good for me. So yeah, yeah, I need.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
To hear where it's played out to trauma.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah yeah again but not necessarily not even yeah, but
just not not a healthy not a healthy dynamic, and
you know, like you know, I want to have I
want to have a healthy dynamic.

Speaker 4 (36:27):
I want to find someone.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Like stable who I can have something long term with
and like, you know, he's going to be part of
the family, because that's so important to me. It's like
someone who can be a part of the family and
be like involved and like come hang out with you,
you know, like we go dancing together, and you want

(36:50):
that too.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so there's something there, I think around
being able to split the difference in your mind earlier
around mum's opinion versus control. Yeah, it's like, can I
hear this is her opinion one that I can agree
or disagree with, and I can listen to it or
not listen to it.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
So it's like, can I allow it for it to
be there without feeling like it's infringing on my rights
or choices or decision making, because I think sometimes that
can happen. I mean a lot of the time, for
you know, we do seek our parents' approval. Everybody wants
like you just said there, I want someone who can
fit in with the family and all of that and

(37:33):
be part of our lives together. And when you feel
like that's not possible or that's not happening because someone disapproves,
then it can go into that real like yeah, oppositional
defensive will find then fuck you, I'm just going to
go off with them type of thing.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
Yeah, And I think you're also like that thea I
feel like the rejection sensitivity as well, where like I feel, yeah,
I'll feel rejected because it's like my thing that I'm
bringing to the table is like, you know, being rejected.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah, yeah, and then and I it is harsh and
that I can see how that makes you feel like
I can. And you know, a lot of the time
I do regret what I've said and how I've handled it,
but it doesn't stop me from seeing that. Ultimately, it's

(38:25):
I feel like it's going to end in tears or
that's what I can see, and I know that has
to play out, but it's sometimes it's hard for me
to see it and not want to prevent it. That's
that's kind of what we've been discussing, is my fear
of what's going to happen, and I don't know how

(38:48):
we prevent that in the future is by me changing
the way I communicate with you, and by you not
running away from me if I say something that you
feel like you don't want to hear or not feel
like that, if I say something you don't like or
you feel like it's a criticism, if you know what
I mean, because it's not actually criticism of you. Yeah,

(39:08):
it's not meant to be mm hmmm. It's comes across
that way.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, And I think I think in the past it
just used to be like a bit, a bit too
sensitive to criticism, and yeah, a lot of the stuff
that's happened over the past few years. Yeah, I've I've
like I think i've yeah the top, like how to

(39:33):
not be so easily so easily bruised by criticisms. So yeah,
I think, you know, separating that and just you know,
looking at it and being like okay, yeah I can

(39:54):
I can move through it and not be so shattered
by it, I guess, yeah, or I can just express
that it's like oh yeah, no, that really hurt me.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
But yeah, I was gonna say you could you could
name it or communicate it of like okay, yeah, I'm
really struggling with hearing that or like I find that
really difficult to listen to, like can like I heard
you can I just have some time to process that
or you know what I mean, Like so you can
kind of acknowledge it, but also say like yeah, like

(40:25):
I'm getting even the whole, like I'm starting to feel
like I just want to run away, or like I
just don't want to talk to you. You know, you
could even because we're just naming the process of like
I can feel myself wanting to do that thing where
I go away for two weeks because I don't like
what you've said. That doesn't mean you're going to go
and do it, but it's like it's also letting mum know,
like hey, just pause here, or don't double down on

(40:47):
it like I've heard it, but it's going to need
to go softer and slower so that I don't withdraw
because that we don't. We're trying to work with that
usual sort of push and then withdraw thing that happens.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
Yeah, yeah, I gotta go. This is not a threat, but.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
I will I will disappear in my room for two
weeks if you don't.

Speaker 4 (41:10):
Chill out a little bit. Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
But the rejection sensitivity piece, I think is so difficult
because it is you know, I mean it's part of
ADHD diagnosis, but also with complex PTSD and things like that. Right,
it's there's heightened emotions and heightened sensitivity, like the intensity
of things can feel more than the average person. So
I think that that in itself means you have to

(41:37):
work so much harder early to try and manage all
this stuff internally, which is why it makes sense that
you withdraw, because there's so much going on there that
you're trying to manage. But I think this whole process
is like how do we use Liesel as a resource
rather than withdraw from her? So it's like, you know,
how can Mum be part of me trying to manage

(41:58):
what's going on internally rather than the person that I
withdraw from. If Liesel is doing the things, you know,
like if unless she's just like blatantly, you know, disregarding
everything we've talked about and just coming on really strong.
But if Mum is, like we have seen, is working
this way and really being open to doing things differently,
your default to withdraw, We're going to try and swap

(42:20):
that to be like, Okay, how can we work as
a team on trying to manage my urge to withdraw.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't need a lot of help, and yeah,
I guess like getting through that next little bit, and
but yeah, I do feel Yeah, I feel I feel
more fortified now that we've never like.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah, I mean this is huge because it goes back
to like because when she was little, she was always
really difficult to discipline she, I guess because of the neurodiversity,
and you know, she didn't understand discipline no matter what form.
And you know, she didn't go to school for three years, yeah,
you know, and why didn't even she was at a

(43:12):
quite an elite private school on an academic goalarship and
she basically didn't go to school for three years. And
they never even called me. She just didn't go to school.
And they ended up, you know, saying having a meeting
and saying this isn't working. But Ellie tells me later
she didn't go to school. I didn't even know, And
so it goes back. There's a long way of of

(43:35):
me not knowing how to communicate with her and not
knowing how to handle her and stuff like that. So
it's it's kind of really big, this communication thing with us,
because it's it's it goes way back. It's not just
it's not just so it's always been difficult.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, and you tried everything with me, and I was
I was like you know the Yeah, they were like,
you can't go out and try to lock me up
and I would be like out the window and over
the fence.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
And I was determined.

Speaker 5 (44:02):
Yeah, yeah, like I was, and you know, like getting
my scholarship provoked and yeah, all of that.

Speaker 4 (44:16):
Where it was they didn't they didn't know what to
what to do with me.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
They just they basically they they brought they brought us
into a meeting. The principal said, we just don't know
what to do. We don't know how to handle her,
we don't know what to do with her. And so
it's it's it's always been it's always been challenging our
communication because what do you do with what do you

(44:40):
do with that? We find another school and we found
a good school. Yeah, you know, but again it's always
been hard. It's always so I've probably gone to aggression
and yelling and you know, you've got to go to
school and you know, you know, yelling at her and
telling her off, and.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
When we don't know what to do, you know it
and I think again, it's it's overwhelmed, it's concerned, it's
your own sort of powerlessness over the situation, you know.
And then yeah, it can come out and yelling and
control and all that sort of thing, which you know,
I would say most parents can probably relate to, but
inevitably probably didn't really change the outcome very much.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
I doubt No, No, it didn't.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, so there's something there around, Like if we think
of this as like a theme or a pattern in
your life, Ellie of yeah, people not knowing what you need,
people not really asking you what you need, or not
asking it in a way where you felt like and
maybe you also at times haven't been able to know
more articulate what your needs were. Maybe now that's something

(45:45):
you are better at or more clearly you can kind
of look for the need underneath the behavior.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Yeah, I've had to spend a lot of time, I guess, yeah,
reflecting on that sort of thing. And yeah, yeah, I'll
try and communicate all of that better, because yeah, it's
been along long journey. I'm trying to learn how to
communicate with each other. And yeah, me just just doing

(46:16):
what I want. We're just running away, running away, just absconding.
Yeah it was over the fence or overseas or like, yeah,
you know, disappearing pre year or so.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
So Liesel's role is to, you know, remind you I'm here,
I am safe, I can help. I'm your teammate in this.
And your role, Ellie is I need to trust Mum,
and I need to give her if she's showing me
that she's listening, if she's showing me that she's curious
and that she's trying. She won't be perfect, and neither

(46:53):
will you. You might draw a couple of times and
I might have to prompt you back and hey, you
know we said we're not doing this when we're doing
it different now. But yeah, it's like really trying to
trust that things are different on both ends. So I
can't keep just thinking the same thing that will normally
happen will keep happening, because if I keep thinking that
I'm not going to change what I do, I'll just

(47:14):
keep doing what I normally do.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
Yeah, so on both your ends.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
There, Yeah, And I think just coming here is just like, yeah,
making a commitment to do things differently and you know,
not hurt each other in the at least, you know,
not like less or hurt.

Speaker 4 (47:33):
Each other less.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
It's been like a big journey for me. I guess
learning how like you know, I got a as a
lot that needs to happen before I'm I'm fully back
on my feet with my mental health and I can't. Yeah,
I can't do it alone.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
I can't.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
I need the I need the support. But also like I,
I can do it without like codependency. I guess, yeah,
you know, healthy stuff.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
After a short break, Lieesel Ellie and I will explore
the difference between codependency and healthy dependency and continue to
think about more ways that they can put this new
positive momentum into practice. Stay right there. I did think

(48:33):
about codependency a little bit when we were talking about
the difficulty in tolerating mum's difference of opinion, because that
can be it can be a sign of codependence when
we struggle to tolerate difference between ourself and our loved

(48:54):
one or you know, the person we're close with, and
that can be difference of opinion disapproval. Yeah, And so
I just wondered whether that could be something there, whether
there's a little bit of codependence in terms of am
I able to be okay? With in the face of
mum's disapproval, or in the face of a different you know,

(49:16):
Mum doesn't like this person, but I do. Or Mom
doesn't think I should do this, but I think I
should and I will. Can I hear her out and
then still make my own decision and not get triggered
into this like need for us to be on the
same page.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Yeah, and yeah, that's a big part of my journey actually,
is like I'm learning this codependency. I think, Yeah, that's
it's something I really need to be aware of, is
that I do have those tendencies and I think, you know,
falling out with my friendship group this year and you
know we wo like so close and on like you know,

(49:55):
always together, and that yeah, that wasn't it wasn't necessarily
the healthiest dynamic. So yeah, just having to face that
and be like, oh, like I lost that love, but
also that love was like not very healthy for me
and not conducive with like my yeah my you know

(50:19):
growth and happiness and yeah mental health and mental well yeah,
not good.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
For mental health.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yeah, we're all very reliant on each other and yeah,
yeah that's it's it's all positive.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yeah, But and perhaps in this work with your mum,
if you start feeling like there's a stronger foundation of
support and trust between the two of you, you may
find that you'll be less codependent or you have less
of that codependency behaviors come out in your friendships because

(50:57):
you know, sometimes that is developed from a place of
lack where we have We don't feel that support and
comfort and reassurance in one area, so we seek much
a bit overboard in the other. So I wonder if
even this work the two of you are doing together
will flow have a flow on effect and inevitably help
your relationships your friendships be a bit healthier as well.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
That's yeah, you're saying that I was just about you making.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
This.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
I'm trying to make it not sound brutal, but better choices,
like you know, people that are less damaged, a bit
more healthy all round kind of you know what I mean,
for your for your friends, like you're even you know
your new friends, she's she's stronger and healthier and very

(51:49):
supportive of you rather than damaged and needing you, if
you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Yeah, yeah, no, she's and also just like very committed
to like we're working on creative projects together and bringing
out that sort of thing in each other instead of yeah,
wallow wing over whatever drama is going on in our lives.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, building you up rather than bring you down. Yeah,
that's a better way to describe it.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
And yeah, no, I think, like, yeah, I've realized I
really value that in relationships. Is like fostering creativity because
you know, we grew up in a very big musical
and creative household. Like yeah, I think I think like
getting back in touch with that, giving me the space
to pursue Yeah, I guess like my more Yeah, like

(52:50):
independent creative pursuits and support.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
That is people that are going to add to your
life and make your life better and rather than bring
you down.

Speaker 4 (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, it's good. That's good.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
I wonder if at times, Ellie, do you find that
your mom, if there's someone in your life that she
disagrees with, do you experience it as a lack of
empathy when mum talks about why they aren't good? You know, like,
is it a feeling like she doesn't actually see the

(53:30):
parts of them that are good and that she's only
seeing the difficult or not great things.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Yes, yeah, definitely, And in hindsight, you know, I like
that's sort of what came to the end of that
relationship I have with a person that she really really
disapproved of.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
Was like I sort of realized, like, oh, actually I
can't bring this person around my mom anymore.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I just I didn't really see much at all anything
in that person, Like I couldn't. I didn't couldn't find
any like zero, to be honest, I mean.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
Yeah, but for me, like you know, and like it
sort of it hurts my heart to hear that, because,
like I saw, she was such a beautiful human and
it's really really sad that we're you know, that we
weren't able to resolve things.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, And so I guess that's a good point to make, Liza, though,
if what if there isn't anything that I can see
that is positive. I think this comes back to that
point of before around tolerating the difference, you know, where
but this is just the other way around of Okay,
you know, I don't see anything good in this relationship,

(54:46):
but obviously Ellie does.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
That's right, you know, obviously she does.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, I need to and I need to hear her
and listen and understand it.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Might be that you're right that this person isn't good
for her, like it might be that you're right. So
it's not even about questioning your judgment. I don't think
you need to question your judgment. It's more just tolerating
the difference. I think this is terrible. Clearly Ellie doesn't.
And if I'm able to tolerate that difference in our opinions,
that means that I won't keep pushing mine on hers,

(55:20):
but I can be there to support her and be
there for whatever she needs. I can be upfront about
what I think, but I don't need to then force
or push anything so that we can keep a dialogue
open about our difference.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, Now, yeah, I get that.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, it's hard on both ends, isn't it, to tolerate
the difference. And that's a little bit of that. I
think from one way, it's codependent. So from Ellie it
feels rejecting when you think something different to me, where
for you, Liesel it feels scary when you think something
different to me, Like.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Yeah, I just I just worry, you know, worry about
what's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. But again
back to the fear thing my fear, yeah, of more trauma, yes,
and upset and heartbreak and stuff like that. So and
I've got to just well, I've learned to, I've learned

(56:16):
I have to just let it play out. Like if,
like what, like you said, after I've said something, it
blows up, then I just have to let it play out,
and I just have to wait and hope that she
is okay.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Yeah, And hopefully with this you know, improved way of communicating,
hopefully I can let it play out and still be
a big support of Ellie's and a big part of
her life, which will inevitably make any heartbreak or trauma
or anything that happens significantly less difficult to go through
if she's got you by her side, rather than if

(56:50):
you know, the communication went how it did she Withdrew
and you know, then she was going through it alone.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, because yeah, I mean I came
out straight away and spoke about the documentation, and that's
it's really good for me, c PTSD to just like
to be working, working through things and talking through things
and not Yeah, it's horrible, it's horrible trying to process

(57:22):
things by myself. It's yeah, yeah, And that's what you
used to do just lock yourself in your room for
a week. Yeah, and it's good if you can come
out and talk about it rather than do that and
then now then me just worry and keep texting you

(57:43):
asking you if you're still alive and stuff like, it's
it's good if you if you will come out and
help us and will help you go through it.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Yeah, and it could even be you know, let's say
something happens then you go into that withdrawal again. You
could even have it think and you may have some
ideas right now, or this could just be sort of
a reflective homework sort of bit. But if I do
go back into my withdrawal mode, what could help me
come back out? Like is this something that mum can

(58:14):
do that might help? And kind of yeah, get prompting
mum with that. Yeah, so in future it's like, okay, well,
I know when she does this, I find that annoying
or when she does that, I'm less likely to respond.
But if she did this, you know, maybe I would
kind of come back out of my shell a bit.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I always I always appreciate when you
when you do like a check in text, I even
if I don't respond. I appreciate when yeah, you're checking
in and seeing if I need anything. I think, yeah, yeah,
that's a that's a big thing. That's that made me
feel okay in those times, even though I don't think

(58:53):
I've ever expressed that.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Well, that's good. I mean, that's what I try to do.
I just try to say you, okay, do you need anything?
When she when she shuts down, I'll just say I
just send her a messages and I'm thinking of you.
Just let me know if you need anything. And sometimes
she doesn't respond. Sometimes sometimes you do.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Yeah, I'll just turn back like I love you and
yeah that's like you know, because yeah, I will be
feeling that and it'll be like I don't I don't
know how to communicate, like everything is like so much,
but like just when like how to you know, I
can just say I'm okay, I love you, like you know,
even if I'm even if I'm angry at you, even
if yeah.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
This is difficult for me. That's yeah, yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
I appreciate that because it's all I need really to
just say I'm okay and then I'm then I can.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
Mm hmm all that actually come to think that I'm
not okay. I'm just trying to make sure that you
feel like I'm not gonna.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
It's not going to end my life.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
I guess in those times because I know it must
look particularly scary.

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
I know what feels scary. But yeah, yeah, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
I guess that's that's what.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Is it true when you're saying so you're saying you're okay,
and I get that you're not actually okay, But does
your I'm okay if we take that as I'm not
feeling suicidal or I'm not actively feeling suicidal? Is that true?
Or have you said I'm okay at times when actually

(01:00:36):
you really more than just weren't okay, but actually potentially
we're suicidal as well because it's one because it's I'm
sort of trying to check it, You're just saying it
to plicate your mum because you're worrying about her, or yeah,
and where does that leave you if you actually really
do need the help?

Speaker 4 (01:00:53):
Yeah? And yeah, there have been times where I like,
really really been considering it in the past year where
I'm just like, oh, you know, is it worth going
through this? And but yeah, I have.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
I have basically texted and just been like I need
to go back to hospital, like we need to book
the appointment and.

Speaker 4 (01:01:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's so we've dealt with it. I guess.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Yeah, we've not not dealt with it, but like you know,
I've just been strategies in place. Yeah, you know, you know,
try different medication. Yeah, so it's yeah, we've been we've
been working through that in a good way.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
I think. Yeah, we've got there, We've got the yeah,
the Yeah what did you say that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
The strategy how to deal with it?

Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Yeah, Okay, So if you say I'm okay, you may
not really be feeling okay, but you're at least saying
we're not at safety plan level where we've got to yes,
getting some strategies to make sure I'm safe. Yeah, basically
I'm okay. Is I'm safe?

Speaker 4 (01:02:04):
Yes? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Yeah yeah, so maybe yeah, maybe I need to say
it like that, like I'm not I'm not okay, but
yeah I'm safe, but.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
I'm safe yeah yeah yeah. Or if it's like not
sure if I'm safe, maybe we need to do this
or you know, yeah, whatever you're actually needing. Yeah, yeah,
because I was guessing them. You know, when you say
I'm okay, although for you these it might be a
little bit of relief. There may also be a question

(01:02:35):
of well, is she actually or is she just saying
that to make me feel better? So yeah, just checking
that you can say you're not okay and there's a
difference between are you okay and are you safe?

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
And yeah, yeah, it's good to know because yeah, that's
probably confusing in itself, being like when I say I'm okay,
and I obviously like, look like I'm not okay and
I'm not communicating with you, So I think that's very
vague and I guess like defensive in a way where
I'm not even feeling like I'm feeling so vulnerable that

(01:03:07):
and I don't like to be I guess that's like, yeah,
it's it's uncomfortable to be vulnerable. So yeah, you know,
I'm not even I'm not even expressing even like a
light level of like you know, proper communication.

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
I guess you know, Yeah, yeah, it'll work on that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Yeah, I'll get that you're not okay. I mean, I
know when you say that you're okay and you're not
really okay, But I mean it's yeah, I've learned what
to do. Like, how do you know, do you need
to know the doctors. Do we you know, do we
need to make a doctor's appointment? Do you need to
go to hospital? What do you need to do?

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
You know, m hmm, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
And I think that's you know, maybe something to think
on a little bit more, you know, after this in
the next few days for you. Elliot's just is there
anything other than those things? Yeap, mum checking in like that?
But is there anything else that would maybe make me
more likely to actually come out of my room or spa?

(01:04:13):
And it might be like, I'm struggling, I'm not really
going to be able to talk. But we could go
on a walk, or we could sit by each other
and like do something, you know what I mean, Like
could I have interaction with you that's not verbal, Like
could I sit by you and we watch a show
or you know, something like that where it's like I'm

(01:04:33):
not really ready to talk, but I do think it
could help if I was next to somebody, you know,
I don't know, They're just ideas, but things that what
might help for mom to go, oh, hey, you know,
do you feel open to doing this or are you
up to doing that? And it could just be really
little things, but that don't require talking if you're just

(01:04:53):
not in a space to be able to talk.

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
Yeah, yeah, offering offering dinner has been really really helpful.
And yeah, like watching a movie together I think would
be really good. We love going to the cinema and.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
And well we haven't done that for years. Again, like
we haven't been because it's been strained over the last
couple of years. We haven't done stuff together. And this
why is so big to go the footy on the
you know on Saturday. We haven't done anything together. And yeah,
and having lunch. I've asked you out so many times,
just so many different things and you just don't come

(01:05:30):
to have them, come to any of them for so long,
and so it's been so big in the last week.
So it's yeah, it's been incredible really.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
So maybe maybe the movies is something you do anyway.
But even just like if you're really not doing well
and you know you've sort of been hold up in
your room and if Mum's like, oh do you want
to come watch come sit on the lounge it let's
watch something together. That could be something where if I'm
not ready to actually talk or whatever, But I think
I could manage that sort of thing. Yeah, and if

(01:06:03):
you're not up to it, you just say no. But yeah,
sort of giving mum because I think when when you're
in sort of shut down state, it's hard to come
up with ideas because you're just surviving, right, So giving
these all these options and things to offer is great
because then she can offer them to you because her
brain will be, you know, working and functioning while yours
is just trying to survive.

Speaker 4 (01:06:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Yeah, hmm, it looks it's been so lovely to see
the two of you really coming up with such practical things.
You know that the two of you can change or
do differently in how you communicate and in how you
relate to each other. Because I think that's the thing
is we can have these ideas of like okay, well
I just need to be less like this, or I

(01:06:46):
need to be less like that, but having your like
practical strategies that you've just sort of gone through today,
around like I will say things this way, or I
will call out this process or you know what I mean,
or these are the strategies that might work for me
in this situation. I think that makes it more tangible
and more likely that you guys will do things differently.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, Yeah, one hundred percent. I've learned
so much about myself and about how to communicate with
Ellie from you your fantastic Sarah really could thank you, Lithel.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
You know, I'm not really the one doing the hard work.
The two of you are the ones that you know.
It's Yeah, relationships are not super easy things to be in. Basically,
having to deal with more than just me is always hard, right,
So I think the two of you have really been
doing a lot of the heavy lifting this last week.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
Yeah, it's been doing well. Yeah, yeah, really well so
far beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Yeah, Yeah, I really appreciate you guys both being so
open and just willing to hear each other. It's been lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Yeah, and we really appreciate you all your advice and
everything you've shared with us and helped us with. It's
been fantastic. You're amazing. We spoke about that again last night.
We also just think you're fantastic. You're you're just beautiful
to talk to. You really get us and you Yeah,

(01:08:22):
you've been fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Yeah, Oh, thank you. That's such a love. It's really
sweet and kind and lovely for me to hear. I
appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
After this session, I'm feeling Yeah, really, I guess like emotional, like.

Speaker 4 (01:08:46):
It's yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
It's I love my mom so much and it's so
wonderful to have this. Yeah, have made so much progress
in healing our relationship and be moving forward, and I
feel really optimistic. Yeah, I think even more so when
I feel really supported and grateful. Yeah, I think next

(01:09:11):
for the two of us, we did we did. We
spoke about, yeah, continuing the therapy process because I think, yeah,
there's a there's a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
There's decades of healing to do.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
You know, there's there's going to be stuff that's difficult
in future that it's it would just be so good
to have like that extra support for And Yeah, I guess,
like you know, we've been talking about it. There's there's
so much to learn, Like I've been through a lot
of therapy and yeah, just talking through that with her, Yeah,

(01:09:43):
she's Yeah, she's just been really open and wonderful and
it's just.

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
Yeah, helped the whole family just healing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
I guess yeah, Oh, I'm beyond grateful to you, Like,
could not have expected this could have been this major,
this quickly, Like for us to communicate like it's incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
It's absolutely incredible. That's all I ever wanted is just
like to have a really good relationship with her. And
there's always been glimpses, but like I said, we haven't
done anything together for years like what we did in
just in this last week. I think that Ellie is
feeling really good. I think she it's been emotional for

(01:10:36):
her talking about her trauma and the problems with her
friends and you know the way I the way I've
handled things. But I think she feels really positive and
really optimistic that it's going to We're going to learn
how to communicate with each other and try to avoid
these blops in the future. And I think that she
understands that she can lean on lean on me and

(01:10:58):
on my partner Wayne, and that we will help her
and she doesn't have to lock herself up. And I
think she's really optimistic for our future relationship. I think,
which is good. We want to continue therapy. I've never
had therapy on me. It's huge for me, Like I
didn't even know that my anger was anxiety and I
didn't even fight and fly, I know about those things

(01:11:19):
when I never never knew that's what I was always in.
You know, it's been amazing. It's been amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
The progress made across these two sessions is astounding, more
than I expected considering some of the long standing patents
that had been present between Leesel and l However, they
both really took the process seriously, took the homework seriously,

(01:11:54):
and have really started implementing the things that we talked about.
So and it seems like it paid off. And there
were some really nice connective moments between the two of them,
and they got a bit of a taste for what
it was like when things were good, and I think
that they have a bit of a deeper understanding of
each other, which will do wonders for them moving forward.

(01:12:15):
My hopes for Liesel and Ell is that they really
keep on the same path that they've been on over
this last week, which is being open, being kind, being
receptive to each other's thoughts, opinions, and needs, because I
think that they both want the same thing, they both
want the same type of relationship, and they're just figuring

(01:12:36):
out the different ways in which they have gotten in
the way of that happening. And so I really do
think that there's a bright future for the two of them,
and there will be ups and downs, and I think
that after what we've covered today, hopefully they have a
bit of a go to plan around. Okay, Well, if
one of both of us goes into our usual default behavior,

(01:12:59):
what will one or both of us do to recorrect
and put us back on track. This Is Why We
Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilson.
The executive producer is Naima Brown. Our studio engineer is

(01:13:20):
Lou Hill. Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing
and sound design by Jacob Brown. Additional production support from
Leah Porgus and Coco Levine. Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.
If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or
if you just feel like you need a bit of help,
there are links in our show notes to resources available

(01:13:42):
to you right now, as well as how to connect
with my practice Motivated Minds. If you'd like to apply
to be on the next season of This Is Why
We Fight, there's a link for the application in our
show notes too. I'm your host, Sarah Bays. Thank you
for listening to season one of This Is Why We Fight.
If you haven't already. Make sure you'd like and follow

(01:14:02):
this podcast and follow the links to stay in touch
with us on socials so you can be the first
to hear about season two. Until then, please look after
yourselves and just know that there's no problem too big
or too small for therapy