Samantha & Marie [Part 1 of 2]: A Mother & Daughter Estranged For Years

All Samantha wants is to understand why her mother wasn’t there for her. All Marie wants is a chance to make things right with her daughter — and to be part of her granddaughter’s life. But after years of distance, hurt, and misunderstanding, can a fractured bond ever truly be repaired?

In this session, a mother and daughter confront the truths left unspoken, ask the questions long avoided, and search for a small patch of common ground on which to rebuild their relationship.

Listen to the second part of Samantha & Marie's session here

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
• Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

The End Bits

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• Host: Sarah Bays
• Executive Producer: Naima Brown
• Studio Engineer: Lu Hill
• Audio production: Thom Lion and Jacob Round
• Production support: Leah Porges and Coco Lavigne
• Follow This Is Why We Fight on Instagram for sneak peeks and more relationship therapy content

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.
This podcast was recorded on.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
I'm just hopeful that we can actually do something to
repair this because you know it was talk about grief. Well,
my grief is that I don't get to see my kids.
I don't get to see my children, and I realized
that that's probably a lot is my fault.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to this is why we fight real people, real problems,
real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical
psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples,
and families. This series has been designed to allow you,
our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of

(01:03):
other people who are grappling with challenges in their relationships
because as I firmly believe that we can learn so
much from each other. Today you're meeting mother and daughter,
Marie and Samantha. Samantha is a thirty eight year old
nurse and mother who lives with her husband on the
Gold Coast. Marie, fifty nine, is also a nurse and

(01:24):
lives in the Golden Valley. The relationship between Marie and
Samantha ruptured when Samantha was very young, and they've been
relatively estranged for years. Here's Session one with Samantha and Marie. Hi, guys,
it's really lovely to see you both.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Hello.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
So I guess maybe I'll start with you, Sam, because
it was you who wanted to engage in this process
and see what the two of you could repair or
talk about between you and Marie, and so I'd love
to hear some of the thought behind that.

Speaker 4 (02:02):
Yeah, Okay, Well, I it was kind of a whim actually,
and I just heard the ad pop up, and I
just said, have you been a strange for someone?

Speaker 1 (02:15):
And I thought, yes, I have my mother, and.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
I am kind of in a really good place with
my own therapy and where I am at in my life.
But there is always been that relationship with my mother
that is difficult, and so I thought, okay, well, let's

(02:43):
just give it one last shot and see if there's
anything that can be done about it. I'm of the
belief I don't think that there can be, but at
least if I give it one last shot, then I've tried.
I think there's a lot of grief that goes along
with losing that relationship with your mother, and I've dealt

(03:06):
with that, but I'm still really angry about it. I'm
still really angry that I didn't get to have that
growing up, and I don't get to have it now, especially.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Now I've got my own daughter. You know, like there's
a lot of anger still that probably could be dealt with.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
I'm not sure, but yeah, I think that's kind of
why I'm here, at least to be heard, I guess.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, and if I can, just before we go to you, Marie,
I do want to check with Sam. You've sort of
said I want to give it a last shot, but
there's this sort of negative thinking around I don't think
anything can change, or I don't. There's got to be
a part of you that holds a bit of hope

(03:49):
or Yeah, I guess the point of this process is
to be heard, but also is there any hope that
potentially you could come to some type of understanding or
some type of relationship.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
I think the hope lies in the ability to understand.
So I guess if I can understand why it is
the way it is and why she's behaved the way
she has, then I guess it the door's open A
little bit, but I can't, especially, like I said, having

(04:25):
my own daughter, I can't understand why that relationship is
not there.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
M Yeah, so you're really looking for some clarity. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Yeah, I think that's the main thing, Like just at
least I'm understanding, trying to understand what's going on.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Sure, yeah, yeah, okay, And Marie, for you, what was
it like finding out that this is something Sam wanted
to do?

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Look, you know, I'm always hopeful that there is a
way back. I know that it's going to be a
difficult road, but I guess I'm the same as Sam.
I've gone along my journey and my place now is
a lot better, and I guess I'm now looking for

(05:13):
to be able to be heard a little bit as well,
so that I can explain. I guess that's something that
I didn't do, and I will always regret not doing
that because that has, I don't know the right words,
it has made it a lot more difficult, and because

(05:38):
of the lack of understanding, I think as well that
and I've expected too much. I've expected to be able
to just to come in and not really explain what
happened and why. And I guess I look, I don't know.
I'm just hopeful that we can actually do something to

(06:01):
repair this because you know, it was talk about grief. Well,
my grief is that I don't get to see my kids,
I don't get to see my grand children. And I
realized that that's probably a lot is my fault. But
I just don't know the way to go with it.

(06:22):
And this is for me. This is a bridge. I
saw this was a bridge, and I saw this as
some kind of reaching out to perhaps be able to
fix it or have something, have something that yeah, h yeah, do.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
You have some tissues? Yeah, because I asked for tissues?

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Good, okay, and it's a smart yeah, well prepared.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yes on you I cry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
No, don't be sorry. I mean, you know, this is
obviously a really deep and personal thing for the two
of you. I'd be surprised if there was no tears
at all from one of both, and you know, sometimes
it is. Yeah, Look, we have some sessions where have
people are crying throughout the whole thing, and then we've
got sessions where no one's crying, but they're yelling, So
you know, oh do that. No, But look, I think

(07:18):
what's important here is that the two of you are
coming with an open mind and wanting to be heard
and hopefully also being willing to hear the other That
doesn't have to mean you agree with everything the other
person says. It doesn't mean you have to think it's
right or have the same perspective. But I think just
being able to come in being open to listening, and

(07:40):
then we can discuss and kind of get to the
bits that where you guys might be getting stuck for
a first session. I think that's kind of all we
can really hope for, is like, Okay, let's just get
a bit of clarity and understanding out there before we
can then start nudding out the challenges to actually having
the relationship. If that sounds okay. Yeah, So Marie talked

(08:02):
there about feeling yeah, regretful or around having not explained
or not said enough to the kids so that they
understood what happened or why, and that type of thing.
If I can be before we go more into that,
I want to just check in with Sam. Has that

(08:23):
been your experience that it's been kind of there's been
unspoken things, or it's been vague or not clearly explained
and you don't understand why Mum has sort of stepped
out of the relationship.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
So I think I find it difficult because I feel
like she just thinks.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
That the breakdown of my parent relationship was the starting
point for our issues, when for me, that's not even
half of it. Like I'm I'm talking about things that
happened in my childhood that are lacking that that I

(09:17):
believe is, you know, like the main issue.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Mm hm, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
So the relationship was already there was something was already broken.

Speaker 4 (09:30):
Okay, it was already actually and I don't even the
broken so not the right word. It was like almost
non existent, like having that she was there as a
physical person, but having that mother daughter relationship has never
really been there for me, and I felt like maybe

(09:53):
I had to step into that role when I was
very young for my siblings and even sometimes I had
to parent her like.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
It was a role reversal.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
And I feel like that's where a lot of my
anger and and sadness, sadness for not having that, not
having a mom that like my girlfriends do that can
be like, hey, Mom, I've really had a really bad day.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Can you come and have a cup of teat with me? Coffee?

Speaker 4 (10:20):
I don't drink teat it's disgusting, But can you can
you come and have a cup of coffee with me
and explain to me what I should be doing. Just
not having that ability to have that is the hardest
part for me. It's not about it's not about the
relationship breakdown between my parents. Yes, the things that happened
around that time of the affair and all that that

(10:44):
stuff that went on after that in the courts. Yeah,
that's that's a small part of it.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Does that answer your question? Sorry, I got.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
No, No, no, it does. I guess it's it's giving
us a better picture of where the issue lies for you,
and you're saying it was actually in the development of
our relationship that I feel there weren't the right things
there to create that close attachment between mum and daughter,
or the things I needed didn't happen, or the dynamic

(11:15):
of the family and the roles that we were in
meant that I was not feeling close and nurtured by man.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
I was not feeling safe. I never felt safe, I
never felt loved.

Speaker 5 (11:26):
I have an anxious attachment style because of my main
care giver, which was my mother, and.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Maybe time if you're okay, for me to go to
Marine now just to sort of check in. You know,
these are a lot of you know, it sounds like
very true for Sam, very true things of her experience
growing up, and that's okay, but also would be very
hard to hear.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yep. Look, I never disagreed with anything that Sam said
or Sam is saying. I have no answer for that,
you know, apart from I guess trying to negotiate, and
it certainly was never her fault, but trying to negotiate

(12:18):
a full time job, you know, five kids going here,
there and everywhere, and I guess that part of it.
I thought I was doing is the best that I
could do, and it obviously wasn't the best.

Speaker 4 (12:32):
You do you feel like that was actually the best
you can do, because I'm going through the same stuff
now with my daughter, and every single day I'm like.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
That is not the best I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
I could well, no, no, no, no, you're right, it
probably wasn't the best that I could have done, but
it was all that I could do at the time.
I guess that's probably a different way.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Then Where does that come from?

Speaker 4 (12:53):
I don't understand where that comes from, in the sense
of like, why would you keep having children? Why would
you choose to have five children if you felt like you?

Speaker 3 (13:04):
But I didn't. I didn't know that that was the
way I felt at the time. I guess I guess
that was you know, And you know, I guess it
also stems from my childhood as well. And I think
there's a repetitive nature in that that I probably was
treated the same way.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Do you resonate with or relate to some of Sam's
experience of being a child yourself in your absolutely?

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Absolutely? Yep, no, no, do no two ways about it.
I think that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (13:36):
I'm laughing now because I know Nan though, and Nan god,
Nan is a hard, hard person, but she is loving.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
She is loving, and she cooks.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
And she she's very anxious, mind you, she's very anxious
and she's at the top.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
I get that she wasn't there for me though. She
wasn't there for me either. That's that's the thing.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
What do you mean she wasn't there for you? Because
she's mean that she was there for me when I
was a child.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
I don't know if I can.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
You know, that's interesting, that's more interesting for me.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, And I'm just going to play Devil's advocate because
I know, I know, Marie, you sort of shut down
there in being pressed, and so you've shut down a
little bit. But if I played devil's advocate a little
bit here about Nan, and here's me, who know, it's
nothing about Nan. I don't know who Nan is. But
often we can be very different grandparents than we are parents.
So yes, if you're describing a totally different person, that

(14:34):
might be hard to integrate that Nan is actually like that.
But sometimes parents do a lot better when they become
grandparents and they kind of get that opportunity to not
right the wrongs, but you know, they have different insights
different So I'm not sure whether that is at play
here at all, around how Nan is in relation to you,
Sam versus how she was with Marie or anyway. I

(14:55):
just sort of put that out there. But yeah, I
don't know, Marie, whether you see changes in your mother
as a grandmother versus how she was to you as
a mother. What's the difference.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
She's very different to me than she is to her grandchildren.
She doesn't engage with me, she doesn't. She doesn't still
today or still today, still today, she doesn't.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
See that's not true.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
I do remember periods in my childhood where you shut
her out and you were horrible to her.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
There is.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
Memories of you on the phone to her and all
she wanted to do was come over and visit us,
and you were like, no, you can't.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
Then on the other hand, I'd reach out to her
and I'd say, can you come and help me out
with the kids on whatever day? And she'd go, oh,
I just have to check with her husband. I just
have to check with them. I'm not too sure. If
I can, I'll have to get back to you. So

(16:05):
to me, I.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Come from a place of her feeling maybe used that
you know, you're not engaging with her in a nice way,
and you're only trying to you're only trying to get
things like a transactional relationship out of her.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Maybe potentially, I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
Look, I'm not naive, and I know that grandparents are
different parents to the way they were parents. That makes sense,
But I do struggle to believe that it's she's that
different a person. She's actually just wants to help, and
she just wants she just and I know she's got

(16:48):
her own issues, and you know, blah blah blah, and
her dad was PTSD from the war, and all that
kind of stuff get you know, generational trauma gets standed down.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, but it's not about it's not and I mean
this in the nicest but you've got to look at
it from no. No, this is my reality. This is
what I had, the relationship that I felt I had
with her. And I know it doesn't sound to you plausible,
but to me, that was my reality. That's what I lived,

(17:18):
and that's what I feel in here. So it's not
I'm not bagging her or being nasty to her or whatever.
That's just the way I felt when I you know,
she drove me mad as a child like she she
would never let me go anywhere. She was like this,
And that's why I really with the kids, I always

(17:40):
let them go because I couldn't move, I couldn't breathe,
I couldn't do anything. She wouldn't let me out. She
wouldn't if I went somewhere, and I would say, go
and stay at my friend's place. Thank god we didn't
have mobile phones in that stage, because I would be
going and staying at my best girlfriend's place. I might
have been fourteen or fifteen. She'd ring every single morning

(18:06):
she'd ring up and they go, your mum's on the phone.
I was like, oh, for God's sake, you know, you're
a fifteen year old child and you get this. I
had a boyfriend when I was seventeen who had a car.
Now I was seventeen. Yeah, I'd let my mother know
where I was. We were just sitting there watching TV.
Nothing was happening. She came around to his house and

(18:28):
picked me up, Like, seriously, imagine if I had done
that to you, you would have killed me.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
And he did though, but when you did so there
are stuff that happened.

Speaker 4 (18:41):
That that that I wasn't allowed to do anything either though. Yeah,
you let the other kids do, but I was never
allowed to. That's my experience is that I was always overprotected.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah that I guess that was because from my perspective,
I looked at you as being I felt I needed
to do that for you because of the situation of
you know, your dad not being your real dat. So
I overcompensated in my mind that way and protected. I

(19:17):
thought I was protecting you that way. I was always
really careful, Sam, because from my perspective, you were you
were special, and I didn't treat you that way. I
know I didn't feel that way, but I was always
really conscious of making sure that you were the same
as they were. I felt I had to I might

(19:39):
not have, but in my head, I felt I had
to do that. That's true.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
I'm really struggling because I don't know how much of
this is. Like there's an element of manipulation I feel
occurring here, and it's so hard because it's so.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
Okay. I'm sorry, I won't don't just don't.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Don't do that. Don't do don't do that. I don't.
You don't need to do that. That's fine. Don't don't
play the victim of our I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm
just trying to feel you are an.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
I am trying to tell you how I feel too.
I'm not trying to manipulate. I'm just trying to be honest.

Speaker 4 (20:29):
But I know that that my relationship with Dad has
never been better since.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
That's good.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
I'm glad because there was a whole lot of manipulation
that went on with that from you. We had a
lot of issues because of the things that you would
tell him about me, and he's told me he sat
me down and had this discussion with me is he
he said to me that, you know, Marie used to

(20:58):
come home to me and say that you've caused all
these problems, and you know you're upset there and because
we would fight, obviously, you and me would fight, and
then and the the reason I was causing those problems
is because that was the age that I realized that
some of the behavior that was going on was not okay,
and I.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Started to cause.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
Yeah, I probably did cause some problems because the way
you were acting as a mother, especially for my siblings.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
I couldn't see that anymore. I couldn't. I couldn't sit
there and say nothing. I couldn't see.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
I couldn't.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
I couldn't sit there and see the neglect that was
occurring to my sisters because.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Because then they were going.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
Through exactly what I went through, and it wasn't fair. Anyway, Sorry,
we've gone off track.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
I'm gone off track. Yeah, but I'm also following. You know,
there are a lot of really important things that I
think both of you have inside you and maybe have
had inside for a long time, and need to have heard.
And I think that that was something that you needed
to have said.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
After this short, Samantha and Marie continue to search for
a common understanding of key moments in their lives, including
Marie's divorce from Samantha's dad and the fallout when Marie
left the family home. Stay with us, what's it like
for you, Marie? Just listening?

Speaker 3 (22:27):
No one has ever stopped to ask me what happened
after the divorce?

Speaker 1 (22:30):
No one, because no, what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (22:32):
What do you mean?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
No one? Do you mean us?

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Do you mean the eight year old, the fourteen year old,
the seventeen year old, with the nineteen year old and
the twenty Are you saying that we should have stopped
and asked you?

Speaker 1 (22:47):
And I never how you were feeling.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
I never said anything. I didn't I deliberately did not
say anything. That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
But that's what we needed. We needed to someone to
say something.

Speaker 4 (22:58):
We needed like we needed a mother to step up
and say, this is what's happening in you know, I've
made a mistake.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, which I've said. I've said that.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
I've said years later after we pressed you for it.
Not well, not at the time.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
We needed some that's fine. Do you want to take
a break? Do you it a second? No, I'm not
having Look, I don't mean to have it. I don't
want to sound like I'm having a goal at you
at all. Sorry, I don't mean to pat my voice.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
No, it's okay, it's okay, Sam, It's just look.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
Which is That's what I'm more passionate about, is the fact,
like you say to me, you play that, you play
that notion in your head of like, oh, I'm the victim.
No one asked me what I did. No one asked
me whether I was okay. But it wasn't our job
to ask you whether you were okay. Yes, that's something
we can discuss later on whether you were okay. But
I feel like that is the job as a mother.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Absolutely, I agree I have.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
Made a mistake. This is what's happening, and this is great.
This is what I want to do about it.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
But I chose not to say anything because of because
of the situation, I chose not to say thing. I
chose to leave.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
You know you were scared. I think you were scared
about reactions.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
No, no, not of yours.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
We were all very angry.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
You were and not You didn't speak to me for months, But.

Speaker 4 (24:19):
I didn't speak to you because you tried to take
the house and put and you wrote affid David that
described us being a horrible family. That's why I was angry.
I didn't talk to you.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
I didn't write any effort I read those. I did
not write any about you being a horrible family, about
you being horrible kids.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Never well, that's in there, it's in the court.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
I wasn't trying to take your house.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
I was no, no, no, I mean it's my problem.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
No, no, no, But that's my problem right there in
that comment you're taking my house.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
I'm saying, sorry, I'm taking that back. That's not what
I meant, but that's what it felt like at the
time because we were all living with that while I
was out of the home, but the rest of them
were living with Dad, and it felt like you were
attacking us and trying to basically from our perspective, you left.

(25:17):
You didn't explain yourself, you didn't want to. We were
only getting one side. Yes we're on getting one.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Story, but you left, and.

Speaker 4 (25:28):
Then you know what we get these AFFI David saying
that you know you're you're getting. You wanted your half
of the money, Okay, is that all it's about? You
want your half of the money. That you can take
your half of your money. About your children, you know
the biggest thing that I have in mind, I did.
I am going to just let me say one thing,
all right. Yeah, there was a person your father.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
Stood there on that balcony and he said to me,
you make it right with me. I'll make it right
with the kids. That is burned into my brain and
it will never leave me. Now. You can believe me
or not. All right, you can believe you can. I
cannot possibly have made up all of this stuff. But

(26:12):
if you want to know what happened, and if you
want to know why I was the way, I am. No, no, no,
I think you need to know, all right. I really
think you need to know why it was so bad
after the divorce. I hung on to you your kids
as much as I could, as much as I could,
but I just couldn't. I had to come to a point.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Why didn't you pick up the phone?

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Because no one would talk to me? The looks I
got from your kids. And you know why I didn't
pick up the phone because your father said, don't ring
the children because they don't want to talk to you.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
We didn't want to talk to you. We didn't want
to talk to you at the time.

Speaker 4 (26:53):
That's right, And it doesn't mean that you know that's
not going to change or that doesn't mean that.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
But that whole period after was a nightmare, an absolute
night me for me and for you, for all of
you kids. It was a nightmare for everybody.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
That Dad got Scott free out of it either.

Speaker 4 (27:16):
Like like and you know he he's never been the same.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
I mean, now, way that.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
He behaved, the way that he behaved was deplorable.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
I think, no, but this is the problem. The way
you both behaved.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yes, I agree, so then absolutely agree, But it was
deplorable the way that he behaved.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Okay, that's that's fine.

Speaker 4 (27:41):
I think you both behaved terribly, but anyway, I mean,
my behavior wasn't fantastic during that time.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Look, and I think this is where it's common for
two people to have a different well obviously a perspective,
but also sometimes a different memory or recollection or reality
around events. And yes, there will be specifics, like objective
things that we can't deny, but I guess the fact
that you know one or both of you might have

(28:11):
differing views around why things happened or the intention behind
behaviors or things like that. That can be a difficult
thing to get on the same page about, and you
could probably go back and forwards forever about it.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah, and so I read two.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
Yes, But I mean the point is, I think if
you had been the mother that we needed you to
be prior to that point, it wouldn't have been so
difficult either.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
I agree, I absolutely agree, And I've not tried to
make light of the situation. I'm not trying to to.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
But sometimes I feel like you're trying to blame, not
trying to put the full blame on Dad, not it
wasn't his fault. You had a choice before that, you
had a choice to go to him in faith. I
am miserable in this I am miserable in this relationship.
I am miserable in this marriage, and I want out.
That's the choice you have as an adult.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
Absolutely, And I didn't do it because I knew in
my gut that if that.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Anyway he didn't know anyway.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Well, I felt it. I felt it. I felt that
things would go bad. And they did go bad. They did,
they did.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
They went bad because you didn't sit us down and
say this is what's happening, this is how I feel
this is the mistakes that I've made.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
I am never ever trying to get out of any
mistakes that I made. I wasn't that. I wasn't perfect,
Absolutely not. I was far from it. I was.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
I laughed at that because I was clearly a mistake,
and you've been trying to get out of that.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
For the last you were eight years a mistake in accident.
You were never that might have been the case, but
that doesn't mean that you were a mistake. Absolutely felt
like I felt like, well, I'm sorry. I felt like
that I didn't really want to be a mother. Absolutely
I did. Absolutely that's not true. And I know you

(30:08):
I don't know. I thought I thought in my in
my head, in my heart that I was I thought
I was doing a good job. I obviously wasn't. And
you know what, I never walk away from that. I
never stepped back from the fact that I didn't do
the right thing. Absolutely not. And I've always said that
to you. I've said that over and over and over.

(30:30):
I know I didn't do the right thing, but I
don't want to keep paying for it, you know, I don't.
I want to make this better. I want it, you know,
I just.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Want to, like I feel like like there's no point.
I feel like sometimes there's no point.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Now, well, there's always a point. There's always a point,
you know, well, family, you know, family.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Is once, but there's always that you can excuse poor behavior.
That's my it's my opinion with that is that just
because someone's fair doesn't mean that.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
But I'm not an expert. I'm not a fringing killer,
I'm not any of drunk, I'm not any of that.
I just tried to find my way and I didn't
do it very well. You know. But I'm not perfect.
I know that, and I'm never profess to be and
I'm not. What I'm saying now about about what happened is,

(31:30):
you know, I have lots of lots especially immediately after
went down with your father. There there was lots of
things that happened that defined how I went forward. And
and you know what, that was my fault because I

(31:51):
didn't have the guts to stand up and go enough.
I need to see my kids, I need to do that.
I let it happen, and I should not have let
it happen because now I'm in this situation and you know,
I shouldn't never have let it happen. I was too weak,
and I wasn't strong enough to be to be assertive.

(32:14):
I just let it go. And I should never have
let it go because that has not done anything for you,
It hasn't done anything for all the others. All it's
done is just make you feel bad. And that was
never my intention, you know. I was just trying at
that point to just minimize the damage. And I didn't
do it very well. I didn't not well at all,

(32:36):
and for that I am extremely sorry. But there was
things that happened there that defined why that happened, why
it was like that.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
And even if I can just pausey their Marie, because
I think, if I want to hear from Sam, yeah,
just how you're receiving these words, you know, because is
it feeling like a manipulation to you? Are you feeling
feels like a script? It feels like a script. It
doesn't feel genuine.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
When it's genuine, because I don't have a script. There's
nothing here. There is no script. This is coming from
in here. I don't I haven't sat and written a
book and rewriting it.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
I didn't mean it as like a physical script.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
It's not a script. It's my life. It's the what
it's what happened, and it's the way I feel. It
is the way I feel, and you know, you can
say that it's it's just what happened.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
It doesn't know. When I say script, I don't mean.

Speaker 4 (33:43):
I don't doubt that the the actual physical emotions are there.
I think they're there, and that's obviously distressing for me.
But I think there's an element of lacking of insight.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
No, no, it comes from no, I disagree. I disagree.
I have insight. I've always had in site. That is
something that I do have. I do understand where you're
coming from. I do understand what.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
It's where you're coming from yourself. It's to yourself.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
You mean insight to her own behaviors.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Right, yeah, yeah, So I feel excited to that.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
I understand that I was shocking at times. I get that,
you know, and I can't change that. I wish I could.
I didn't do it very well. And it's not a script.
It is me being honest. I've been working on this.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
It sounds like makes you.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
For me, it just sounds like something that you'd see
watching neighbors when two people are having and one person's
true saying all the right things.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
That's what it feels like for me. Do you think
that that makes sense?

Speaker 2 (34:53):
And Marie, you know, and I don't think this has
to become a youth fighting for for you know, Sam
to agree or understand. You know, you can only be
putting on both sides. Really, you can both only be
saying what is true to you and hoping and hoping
the other one can hear it or process it in

(35:13):
some way. And how the other person takes it is
really going to be out of your control, unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
But I'm not just making this up.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
No, I'm not saying you're making it up. I think
you're truly like, yes, this is your experience, but it's
just it's hard for me. Then it makes me question.

Speaker 4 (35:38):
Bigger things because then I'm like, you know, like it's
hard for me to understand.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
How someone can behave that way to a child.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
To that, I think you've got it. You've got to
look at.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
It because I couldn't imagine doing that to my daughter.
I've imagine whatever.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
That's true. And look, I get that, I get that,
you know, and you don't.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
You don't get that.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
You don't get you say that, but you're saying you're saying, Oh,
I get that.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
I get that.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
You say the right things. And and this is traditionally
why people are very sympathetic towards you, because you do
say all the right things, and you look like you're
doing the right things, but you're not.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
You don't follow through with the behavior.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
The follow through isn't there.

Speaker 4 (36:26):
Yeah, she always says the right things exactly. And it's
like the actions that we don't see, and the actions
that are my past and my childhood that I can't
And I was thinking about this the other when I
was going for a walk the other day, I was like,
have I just am I just making all this up?

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Have I blacked out all the good memories of my childhood?

Speaker 3 (36:51):
Like is the like?

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Have I forgotten them? Like you know, repress them? But
I can't. I can't find them. I can't find the
nice memories of you're playing.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
With me, you read with me, you're giving me a
cuddle when I'm upset. I remember the bad memories of
me being too upset and crying too much and getting
a smack, or having to throw a tantrum to get
to get attention, or.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
You pushing my sister through a wall.

Speaker 4 (37:27):
Or like, I don't have those memories and that's what's
really sad and frustrating is that.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
They're not there and I can't find them. But but
maybe they are there. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
Maybe I've repressed them because I'm so angry.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
I don't know. But in my experience, that's not how
memory works. I don't true repression is Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
And look, I don't think this exercise is about trying
to question our own realities, right, Like you know, I
think just because we're presented with different or opposing realities,
the purpose of it isn't to try and change your reality.
It's just trying to understand the other persons. You don't
have to change yours. Yeah, and you know, same vice versa.
You know, Marie, it sounds like there are things that

(38:13):
you do agree with or you know around some of
the areas where you feel where Sam feels, the kids
will let down and you. It doesn't sound like you
have a different reality. You have your own understanding as
to why those things happened.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
I don't dispute them. Yeah, I'm not disputing them. I
do have insight, and I.

Speaker 4 (38:32):
Do, but I don't want to say I don't want
you to feel like I'm having Like my aim here is.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Not to make anyone feel bad.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
You know.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
I don't go about my day trying to hurt people,
and it gets quite I feel like I'm quite a
pathetic So like, if someone is upset, it's like, you know,
I'll think about this for hours after this about how
I upset someone, you know, But my goal is not
to upset you.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
Well, so what do we do then?

Speaker 2 (38:58):
Well, I guess this is where I was sort of
wanting to lead us in terms of the words and
actions parts. So if Sam's difficulty in in receiving the
words that you're saying and sort of taking the man
is because in the past it has been that the
words have been right, but the actions haven't followed. How

(39:18):
we need to circuit break that pattern in order for
Sam to be able to start building trust or believing
in the things that you say. And so I guess
my question was going to be, in what way could
this happen between you? As in, could the opportunity for
that to happen between you? Is there some kind of
And I think Sam, I was going to ask you,

(39:40):
in what way could you imagine an opportunity for that,
because it's well, it's either I don't want to have
an opportunity for that. I don't I'm not looking to
have any relationship whatsoever. Or Okay, we've both done work
on ourselves, we're both in a different place in our lives,
and I'm open to seeing where this goes. What could

(40:01):
it look like to let Marie show me whether she
can back up her words or not?

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Hm hmm, Yeah, that's that's a hard one.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
It's a big question. Yeah, it's a big question.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
It's a big question. I don't know. I don't know
what that would look like.

Speaker 4 (40:17):
Hm. And there's also a part of me that the
idea of that makes me feel very uncomfortable because like.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Traditionally before when we have caught up, it's it's like
it's like sitting across.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
The table from Ah, a long lost cousin that I
haven't seen and have nothing in common with, you know,
like it's so hard.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
To surely do something we can do.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Surely there's something yeah, you know, it's not about that,
it's not about the doing. It's about me how I
feel when we do do it. If that makes sense,
So like, yes, we can meet up and sit there
across from each other and have a cup of coffee.
But it's about how I.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Feel when that happens, because there's a whole host.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
Of feelings that go with that of you know, am
I wasting my time?

Speaker 5 (41:13):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (41:15):
You know?

Speaker 4 (41:15):
What?

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Am I going to get out of it? So it's
very uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 (41:18):
It's uncomfortable to sit across from you sometimes because it's
like you expect. I know what you look like as
a physical person, but it's that relationship is not there,
you know. That's that love and support between us is
not there.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
From my perspective, when I sit across the table from you,
you know what goes through my head. I've got to
be careful what I say because I don't want to
upset her because I wanted to stay. That is the truth,
and I don't know that's what goes on in my head.
What could I I've got to be careful, don't say
anything say you know because I want it.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Well, I'm sorry that that is your experience.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
I want us to be together, so I need to
not say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing,
and then that leads me to doing the wrong thing
thinking because and making it look like I'm doing the
wrong thing because I'm so focused on trying.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
To dury exactly like nan to be that's exactly.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
Exactly because I want to be with you, so I.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
I just but why why do you want to be
like so? Then my question is why do you want
to be with opposite me? If that that feeling on
that relationship that we should have.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Time your mother makes sense to me because I'm your
mother and any and any contact for me is it's
like even this, even though I'm upset enough, You're You're
my child, you know, and I do I've missed so
much and I just want to be with you, and

(42:59):
I stuff it up all the time, and I don't
mean to this is I don't. I don't need to
make a mistake, don't I just I sit across.

Speaker 4 (43:14):
From you when I see how if then if you're
happy for just pleasantries like because I don't, I don't.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
Sometimes it's hard to know what, Like.

Speaker 4 (43:24):
I spend so much of my life looking after other
people and making other people happy and sitting and no.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Listen, let me finish, let me finish.

Speaker 4 (43:36):
Why do I want another relationship where I have to
sit across from someone and try and make someone else happy.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
But that that that that's my that's my.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
Hesitation to wanting you to want to sit across the
table from you. I guess because I like, like I said,
I'm in my job and my life, and you know,
I'm always trying to make sure people are okay.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
You're the one person that I shouldn't have to do that.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
With all that you don't you can do, I feel
like I parents shouldn't have to parent me's I feel well,
I wish you didn't because you don't have to parent me.
I'm your mother. I want to be your mother, and
I want the opportunity to be your mother. But I
have this this this issue as well that because you

(44:24):
your kids have competed out of my life, I'm spetrified
of losing you even more again that I stuff it
up and I don't mean two.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Okay, let me let me pause us here for a second,
because I think we've identified two No no, no, not
go to traffic off track at all, actually very on track,
very on track. I think it's important to yeah, when
there are important bits, I want to pause us so
we can get clear on them before we go somewhere else.
The two patterns identified here. So one is the is

(44:55):
Marie's pattern of plicating or or withholding information, so either
trying to please too hard but doing the wrong things,
or not saying the things she wants to say out
of fear. Right, So this is kind of like, yeah,
trying not to make things worse, but accidentally making things worse.

(45:15):
And none of that, I guess is being genuine or real.
And it's not to say that when you're trying to
say the right thing, you're not being genuine, but you know,
it's when you're censoring yourself, right, like I'm filtering everything through.
And maybe that's part of what Sam might pick up
on as not being genuine or having a manipulation or

(45:35):
a different intent is because you can sense when people
aren't really saying what they want to say. And yeah,
so it is kind of undermining the ability to have
that sort of trusting and open communication.

Speaker 6 (45:49):
Right.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
So if we think of us, if we want to
circuit breaks some of these habits and patterns we have
developed over the years, that would be one. I think
I'd probably work on that one first. And it is
scary because it is going against your nervous system that
says don't do anything wrong or you'll lose them again, right,
Like it's a very big fear and risk for you,

(46:11):
when actually we just need you to be yourself and
say the things that normal, things that you want to say,
and that doesn't And I would suggest avoiding certain topics though,
Like so if we were to discuss even what it
could look like around and maybe it may not even be,
we would maybe work up to meeting and having a
coffee like that might be something to work towards, and

(46:34):
we start earlier back.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
I just feel like the pleasantries for me, the small
talk would be a waste of time.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (46:42):
Like I'm trying to search for what I can get
out of this relationship now that I'm very self sufficient,
Like I don't need to sit there and talk about
the weather.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
Yeah, no, I yeah, I completely agree, and I don't. Yeah,
I don't think that would really be No.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
That's not what I want either. That's not what I
need from this relationship. I need to be able to
know that I can pick up the phone, I could
call her and she'll tell me how our days be.
You know, you tell me that if you're having a
bad day, you know, just saying how are you that?
I mean, that's just I could get that from anyone,

(47:21):
you know. I don't want that from you, Sam. I
want I want to be able to be what you
need me to be. I just I don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
So part of the problem is is the barrier to
you just being able to be You're just yourself? Right.
I do think, like I said, there's some topics that
I think are best avoided for the beginning. In terms
of if there was to be any communication between you two,
I do think that some topics where the two of

(47:53):
you might have very different views about and when they
don't really relate to what's happening now. If there's a
big folk, if it is very much related to your
current life and moving forward, it would need to be discussed.
But I don't know if it's useful to go back
and forward on perspectives on past things unless it's more

(48:13):
to just like, I need you to hear how this
impacted me. Great. I don't want to hear an excuse.
It's I just want you to hear how it impacted me. Like.
That's fine. But in terms of what it would look
like between you two and Sam, I agree the sort
of you know, pleasantries and whatever is going to be
awkward and yeah, pointless. How would it look though, for

(48:36):
Marie to build trust if it's like, how do we
give Marie if you if you even want to give
this opportunity, but it's like, how do we give the
opportunity for Marie to show you that she can try.
She's working on being more congruent, so saying what she
actually thinks and feels and not editing it out of
fear and because there's got to Yeah, otherwise it would

(48:59):
be very hard to build trust that anything can be different.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Look, I don't know. I don't know on the spot.

Speaker 4 (49:06):
It's it's a bit hard, but yeah, I guess I
need to see what I need, Yeah, in order for
to know whether she could fulfill that role or not.
Like it's it's really hard because I because I haven't
had a mother, I have.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Outsourced, Yeah, that role to other people.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Is it that maybe you're not we're not trying to
put Marie in the mother role?

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (49:40):
What if? What if Marie is a friend?

Speaker 3 (49:43):
What?

Speaker 2 (49:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
It's like for the grandmother role, the grandmother, the friends
could be I could be open to the grandmother role.
I don't. I don't know whether or not the mother role.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
Yeah, you're basically asking me for you know, it's like
asking for someone that hasn't had that role for forty
years to just slot it in.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
You know, you couldn't. You couldn't just slot that in. Yeah,
I don't. I don't. I don't need it, yield or
it though. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
Look, I'm not saying I'm not open to building on it.
I'm just I'm just not sure how it fits into
my current life again, whether it isn't even needed, you know,
that's that's not to say there. Sometimes I'm like, I
really wish, I really wish that I had a mother
so that she could help me.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
And it's often in those times.

Speaker 4 (50:31):
It's often in those highly stressed, distressed, you know, severely
distressed times when when you do search for someone else
to help you.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Yeah, but yeah, I think I think it would that
would be hard for me to open up to that
at that time, you know, yeah, because I'm already if
you're already distressed and upset, it's like, you know.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
No, you'd have to have it all in the dice.
You'd have to have a built relationship before you could
lie on anyone when you're feeling distressed.

Speaker 4 (51:02):
Yeah right, Yeah, So I think the grandmother role would
probably be if there was an interest in my daughter
and playing with her and spending time with her on
a small basis.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
Sure, you know that would be okay. I think.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
You know, that would be actually quite an interesting door
to open in terms of if that's where you feel
most comfortable. You could see how repair could easily come
through that door as well. You know what I mean,
Like if you saw you know, a nice relationship being
built there, I can imagine potentially that could open up

(51:44):
to Okay, well, there's been consistency, there's been you know,
good care, care, love, all the stuff that I want
to see here.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, that I didn't have. Sorry, I try and use
hu Mars.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Like, well, you know, we kind of did that full
circle back to what we talked about about parents being
different grandparents and things like that, and whether yeah, interestingly
that's where we've kind of got back to here, whether
that's something that yeah, you're open to seeing from Marie
and then seeing where that goes.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah, yeah, what are your.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Thoughts Marie on the grandparent Oh?

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Absolutely, it'd be really good. You know, I just I
just wanted so badly.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
I don't know, and I wonder whether this could also
be you know, they're kind of testing place around what
happens if you get overly stressed or feel like, you know,
you get into that place. If I don't want to
say the wrong thing, I don't want to do the
wrong thing. How do we start naming that, because that's

(52:55):
sort of where things start going wrong.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
I think yep.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
And it's almost like saying that to Sam. Even when
that comes up. Let's say Sam said, Okay, do you
want to face time with my daughter or some you
know whatever, and you we're going to something, and you know,
and then you start freaking out or going, oh, I
do whatever. You know. I think it's important to just
to name that and be like, hey, I'm so excited
to see my granddaughter. I think I'm freaking out a

(53:19):
little bit. I'm scared I'm gonna upset you, or like,
you know. I think it's important to just name it
rather than I think the usual profit hide either withdraw
or you or you will just cover it. Yeah. Yeah.
The withdrawal or placate thing I think is what gets
h the in the way of Sam being able to

(53:40):
trust you, Yeah, would you say, Sam, that's.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
And it's the lying that goes the lying that goes
on with the with like I mean, yeah, it all
comes from a place of fear because you know, but
again it's like I don't have I don't have the energy.
I don't have the time to parent my parent, Like,
if you know, go and get your own therapy. I guess, like,

(54:07):
if you're going to lie to me like she has recently,
I don't even call it out anymore because I'm like, okay, whatever.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Just you know, it's just easier.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
And I guess I guess I could be more understanding
in that that comes from a place of fear. But
I'm so tired.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
I'm just so exhausted.

Speaker 4 (54:27):
Being a parent and trying to run like my own
life in my work that I just don't have time.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Yeah, you know, And so would you prefer to just
hear the truth of that and not? Who wouldn't And
I don't think it's for you to then comfort console reassure,
but just to be like to hear the truth of
it if it's like, Hey, I'm just freaking out today,
I don't know if I can do this.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
Hey, I don't want to come to your baby shower
because I know there's going to be heaps of people
there and it's going to make me feel really uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
I'm not sure I can do it.

Speaker 4 (54:59):
Rather than saying, oh, hey, I've got COVID for the
second time in two weeks, you know, like just.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Just and say it, hm, like like it's insulting. So yeah,
that's what happens.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
So you're asking, You're asking for honesty and transparency, even
if it's even if it's to say I can't come
or I can't do something.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
I'm not up for it today.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Yeah, and that would be okay, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
I mean sure, like.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
I'd have to adjust to the whatever situation was, Like
it'd be annoying if I had gone somewhere that you know,
and then but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
We're being done with respect and appropriately.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
Yeah, it's a lying that and that's something that is
a pattern that is triggering for me because it reminds
me of all the times that that happened when I
was a child.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
So yeah, Marie, where are you sitting with that?

Speaker 3 (56:04):
I'm just listening mhm, taking it all in. I'm processing it,
And does it feel.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Manageable to be because I guess we're trying to circubreak
that pattern of yeah, the withdrawal or the placating. Yeah,
I just.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
Actually feel guilty right now. I feel guilty. I wasn't
good enough. I love and it's not Oh woe is me?
Don't don't get me.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
That's not where I was going.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
So well, that's not.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
Rather than I'm really sorry that that was your experience
as a child.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
I am.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
I am really empathetic and sorry, I am apathetic.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Sorry, But which is.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
You haven't I feel guilty because you do feel that way?

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Let me no, I don't.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Well, I do feel guilty that I have done this
to make you feel that way. And I am sorry
and I've said I'm sorry and I am really sorry
that that I wasn't there for you.

Speaker 4 (57:20):
You know, if that, if that it's like that, what
is it as Einstein that says if you keep behaving
in the same way and expecting a different outcome.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
If you do the same thing and aspects different outcome.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
That's insanity.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
That a definition of definition of insanity, right, Like, that's
what it makes me feel like, like you're.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
Well, it's not I'm not meaning to make you feel
that way. I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (57:43):
No, no, no, no, that's what I feel like for you,
I feel like you're doing the same thing and then
having the same outcome and like why don't you just.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
Do That's so we're talking about the circuit breaking, right,
that's what we're taking about. Okay, all right, behavior changed
circuit break And you know it's something I just I
noticed as well that I think might be helpful is
in terms of for Sam to be able to hear
to hear what you're saying and hear you take it
accountability for it's because I can hear you taking accountability,
but it's not landing. And I think it's because there's

(58:15):
you're saying things from an eye so like I stuffed up,
I did wrong, which like, yes, that can make sense,
But I think what you're not if you focus it
more on the you, like you know you.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Feel I've upset you, Sam, and you feel that that
I haven't been there for you.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Or you know you've been let down by me.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
And you've yeah, absolutely, And I just need to reframe,
reframe my words. I'm trying to say that, but they're
just not coming out the right way.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
I think it. I do, I do think it's it's
about the way it's been communicated. And let me know
Sam if you agree. But it seems like the emotion
is is there and and a real emotion like not
a faked emotion. But I think the way getting communicated
seems like a pull to make like to I'm upset,

(59:14):
you need to make me feel better, And I don't
actually know if that's what you're trying to do. Marie.
I know, and I'm probably coming across and that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
And I'm probably coming across as someone that's really.

Speaker 4 (59:25):
Cold and heartless in this conversation because I'm not responding
to it.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
But it's you're protecting yourself. You're protecting yourself and you've
heard it before and ye, and you haven't help you're
from it. And you know, I guess from from the
perspective and I'm not going to say me or I
your perspective is that you haven't got what you needed

(59:51):
from me, and from that then you struggle with the
ability to actually believe what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Well, it's not just that, Marie. It's not that I
struggle to believe with what you're saying. Your behavior as
when I was a child has affected every.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Aspect of my life.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
It's affected It's affected how I think about myself, how
I look at myself, how I interact with other people.
And I'm not saying, you know, it's all your fault,
because and I have taken some accountability and gone to
therapy and trying to work through it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
But i have.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Severe anxiety at.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
Times because I'm always looking out for the next thing
that can hurt me or I'm fortunately my house is
my house is neat and clean, and I'm always prepared,
and I'm always trying to please people and make people happy,
and I'm never skinny enough. And you know, it's not

(01:00:54):
just makes me feel a certain way. It's affected every
part of my life. Not having a mother, not having
someone to tell me when i'm having when I'm so
emotionally distraught for whatever reason, when I've come home from school,
to tell me that things are going to be okay
and that you know, I'm safe, is one of the
hardest things that I've ever gone through. Like and and

(01:01:16):
now I'm over the top with my daughter and she,
you know, like she stubs her foot or drops, you know,
drops her flower out out the window or something, and
I'm like over the top with it because I'm like,
it's okay, you're safe, and my husband's.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Like, what are you doing? You're weirdo.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
But it's just, you know, it affects every It has
affected every single part of my life.

Speaker 4 (01:01:40):
I can't put on a pair of jeans without thinking
that I'm fat, you know, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
I think that's good Marie in terms of I hear you,
I hear you know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
And you know, Sarah, what just came out of Sam's mouth?
That is me? Mm hmm that do you see.

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
What I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Do you see what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
Sarah?

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
But that's not what I don't I've just you let
me finish, let me But okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Well what did what did you mean by that? Is
me because I just want to check what I meant there.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
I have projected this onto her, and that it's not
fair that I've projected this onto her.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Okay, I am not.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
Saying that that it's but it's not fair to you,
Sam that you feel that way. That is just you
should never have been put in that situation where you
have to feel that way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
And I think Marie, so second part great, first part
not so right. So and this is where we're just
trying to and this is this is what this is for,
is trying to look at where is our communication breaking down,
what's going wrong in the way that we speak to
each other. And it's great that it happens in the
session because that's where we can have real life examples
and then reframe or just slightly word things differently. So

(01:02:58):
you're right, it's no, no, it's not even that being sorry.
It's literally just like, ah, okay, I see that. I
see that when I'm trying to share something, it's getting
received the wrong way because I started with me first.
So what you did is by saying that is me,
so you put the you put the attention on you first,
which then took away from what Sam was saying. Because

(01:03:20):
I think if you had eventually gotten to that point
down the road, like if you had gone wow or
you know like that, that is so terrible. And I really,
you know, I'm trying to get this perpective, and I
think you could go there. You can go there later
once Sam feels validated and hurt. You can go there

(01:03:40):
later and say, you know, I that is sometimes how
I feel. But I think you have to validate first,
Otherwise it does feel like you're just flipping it, flipping it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
I'm sorry, Sam, because it is. Yeah, but I've got
to learn, you know, I've got to I've got to
have these examples and I've got to understand this.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
And it's not about like you're you're such a terrible
person that you said it the wrong way and then
it's not it's not.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
A value.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Criticism or about your worth. I think it's really just
around starting to learn. Okay, the way that I communicate
at times is not received the way. I think I'm
not wrong. Yeah, it's just.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Saying that not getting kicked up. I say that I
need it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Yeah, and I did, because you're not saying anything inherently wrong.
You're not saying anything like so terrible and nasty and abuse.
It's not that you're saying things that are terrible. It's
just that I think the way they're being picked up
is not the way that you're trying to send it out.
And then, of course when that the mismatch of messages,

(01:04:46):
then you get distressed and upset, and then you do
the plicate or withdraw thing, and then you know Sam's
in that position of distance, mistrust and you know, I
don't really know about this, yeap, and.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
It puts me in the position of having to then say, oh,
it's okay.

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
Make someone else feel better again, whether it's not really
my role in this relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
All the time, you have had.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
A life where a life you shouldn't have, you know,
and then to top it off, that happened.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
What do you mean when you say that?

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
What do you mean when you say a life that
I shouldn't have, Like, that's just again to me, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
And I don't understand what you mean when you say that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
You've had a life where you haven't felt safe, you
haven't felt loved, and you shouldn't have happened. Let's put
it that way.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Yeah, but why why why did it happen?

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
That's what I That's what I'm trying to understand, is
that why Why couldn't you say I love you?

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Why couldn't you give me a hug?

Speaker 4 (01:05:55):
Why why couldn't you sit me down when I was
doing my maths homework and say, oh, you know you're
really intelligent, or like, I really love that you know
you can do this, and stuff like why didn't you
want to sit with me and talk to me about
boys or my girlfriends, like why didn't you have an

(01:06:17):
interest in the things that I did?

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
I don't understand that, and that's that's why it's so
hard when you say, oh, I know that you didn't
have the life that you need.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
But like you, you don't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
We're going to take a short break, but when we
come back, I'm going to assign Sam and Marie some
homework that I hope will help them take the first
baby steps towards repairing their relationship stay with.

Speaker 6 (01:06:44):
Us, and I wonder if this leads us into homework
right I'm thinking maybe, Marie, if there is a reflective
piece for you would be to think about.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
It sounds like it's important for Sam to have some
answers about why you weren't able to show that love
and nurture and care that she needed as a child,
and that it sounds like one of the core kind
of things that are really a barrier to her moving forward.
And it doesn't mean you have to give her an
answer that she wants to hear, or an answer that

(01:07:25):
it's not about pleasing Sam with your answer. I think
it's more just reflecting for yourself and it will be
something you can share in the next session with her
of like, what do you think were the reasons that
you couldn't And it could just be, you know, all
things from your own past. It I don't actually think
the answer has anything to do with Sam herself, and

(01:07:47):
it doesn't seem like Sam things at either.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
But it's taken me a very long time to get
to that point, through twenty years of therapy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Yeah, and I think that's the pain, isn't it That
for a long time it felt like it was Sam
felt like it was her fault.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
I felt that was something wrong with me. Why couldn't
someone love me? Yeah, but it's not about me and
I've learned.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
That it's not about you and it. But I do
think that's why it's important for Marie to do this
for the homework, is to be able to just for
whatever reasons she can come to and it's not to
excuse it. It's not to say okay, so it doesn't matter.
It's because it's just so Sam can really have that
healing around because I know, you know it wasn't because

(01:08:28):
of you now, but I think hearing all the reasons why.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
It's an initial reaction, like in any time that there's
a distressful situation or something happens, you know, my automatic
response is to go, oh, I'm not good enough and
I don't feel good enough. And then it's taken a
lot of CBT and therapy to get to the point
of like, that is the wrong thought, yeah, and move
yourself around it. But in saying that, like I if

(01:08:57):
Marie came back to me and said, you know what,
I'm not a maternal person. It's really hard for me
to be maternal, I felt very overwhelmed or blah blah blah,
whatever it is. Yeah, I would have to forget that
because there are times with my daughter where I'm like,
oh my god, what have I done?

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
What have I done to my life?

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
Have I have? I?

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Yes, I didn't know it was going to be.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
There, And I'm like, she shouldn't be watching any TV,
but I'm gonna let her watch half an hour of
this damn movie just so she could shut up.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
I love her to pieces around, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:09:31):
So it's not like I wouldn't understand that, you know,
and not everyone's maternal and not everyone's.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
Cut out to be that way.

Speaker 4 (01:09:38):
But like I try really hard to give her what
she needs and That's probably why I'm only ever gonna
have one child, because I don't feel like I could
spread myself, you know, between and I have a really look,
I'm very lucky.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
I have a really great husband. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09:56):
Takes on the brunt of it when I'm just like,
I've had a shitty day and i need i need
to sleep in the other bedroom because I need time
where someone's not touching me, you know. So I I think,
like I'm just saying I would understand that. And I
know Marie didn't have that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
She dad was not very hands on. He needed to
be a very directive, and I get that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:19):
So it's not saying I wouldn't understand, it's just it
just doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Okay, So if.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
We have that as Marie's homework is just to have
a think and note down just what she yeah, the
reasons why that kind of nurturing motherly care was difficult
to do at the time, and more so just to
I think it's part of this healing process for Sam.

(01:10:48):
It's not about clearing your name or putting excuses. It's
just like, point blank just being super honest.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
This is what it was.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
It's just what it was, and for Sam, I think
for you the reflection will be around this grandmother role.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
What could it look like?

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
What would I be open to starting with so getting
a bit more practical specific logistics around how it could
look to have Marie start to build a relationship with
my daughter. What would my boundaries be around that, what
would my if are there any fears, challenges, worries, So
we could kind of nut out any anything, so we

(01:11:28):
can kind of get that planning in place of like, okay,
but you know historically this has happened, and we can
figure out what goes wrong there. How do we get
around that before it happens again? Yeah, just so we
can sort of come back next week with a bit
of a plan moving forward, a bit of some more
clarity and healing around the past stuff. Yeah, and then

(01:11:51):
whatever kind of pops up in the week, I guess
between now and then, you know, because this is only
the beginning of you know, what's been a long time
of not really having much communication.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (01:12:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
Yeah? Actually yeah, And it will Maria, I'm just checking
in on you there, you know, and it will be
doing things wrong, saying things wrong on both ends, not
news Sam as well, Like it will be you know, Sam,
You'll be probably more likely to be a bit shut
off and guarded and mistrustful and all that stuff, And
that's a trauma response and that's okay. But just being

(01:12:26):
aware of when am I, yeah, when am I becoming
the barrier? Or when am I actually being boundaried and
safe and doing what I need because sometimes we can,
you know, go a bit more further than we need to.
But just sort of checking in with yourself around that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
Yeah, okay, are.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
We all right to leave it there?

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Yep?

Speaker 6 (01:12:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
Sam and Marie came here today, maybe with slightly different
goals out of the therapy process. I think Sam really
wants some clarity to understand what went wrong between the
earlier years of her relationship with her mother. Why was
her mother not the type of mother that she wanted

(01:13:16):
and needed and then laid it down the track. Why
was there such a breakdown in the relationship after her
parents divorced. For Marie, I think her goal in coming
to the therapy process was to reconnect with Sam, to
try and rebuild a relationship. And I think she also
wants to be heard around some of her experiences as

(01:13:39):
to why there has been such a disconnect and estrangement
between the two of them.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
I'm feeling quite trained, I think, and quite emotional. The
homework that I've been assigned is going to be very difficult,
I think. I think focusing on trying not to make
it about myself is going to be the biggest thing.

(01:14:13):
I think Sam will be feeling, probably not much different
to what she was. I don't know. I don't know
if she's really able to listen. I don't know whether
she's just going back to the same thing again. I

(01:14:35):
don't know. Hopefully she's feeling a bit more positive this
time next week. I hope we're going to be on
a better footing. I'll certainly work on my side of
it whether Yeah, and hopefully she'll come up with something,
because you know, I really would love to see my granddaughter.
So yeah, hopefully we can take the next step.

Speaker 4 (01:15:06):
If I have to say how I'm feeling about that session,
I would say emotionally drained is the main one, and
surprisingly positive.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:15:24):
I didn't think that I was going to get much
out of it, but there are some learning points and
some take home points for me in that as well.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
How do I think Marie would be feeling now? I
think she would be feeling probably a lot of mixed
emotions like I.

Speaker 4 (01:15:43):
Am. I hope she's not too upset, and I hope
that it doesn't like My intent was to never hurt
anyone with appearing here or coming here, So I hope
she's not too upset, but I hope that it's given
her something to think about, So I'm hoping that she's

(01:16:04):
happy to think about it. In a week's time, I
can't promise will be too much further down down the
road than we are now, but at least the door
is open now.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
My hopes for next session are that Sam can come
in with some real, specific, practical ways that Marie could
build a relationship with her granddaughter, and for her to
be able to voice any concerns or issues that she's
aware of that might come up, so that she can

(01:16:43):
nut those out with Marie ahead of time to set
them up for the best possible opportunity to see how
this goes. And in terms of Marie, I really hope
that she's able to reflect a little bit around her
communication style and stick with putting Sam's emotions first before

(01:17:04):
coming over the top with how she feels about her
own behavior. Long term family estrangement is not easy, and
I really applaud sam and Marie for showing up to
this process. I'm looking forward to seeing them next week

(01:17:25):
and hope that the week's homework can help them understand
each other a little better. The second part of Samantha
and Marie's session comes out in a few days, but
if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mea subscribers have
early access to the episode in full right now. Follow
the link in the show notes to listen. This Is
Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza

(01:17:46):
Solmon Nilsen. The executive producer is Naima Brown. Our studio
engineer is Lou Hill. Sound design and music by Tom Lyon,
editing and sound design by Jacob Brown. Additional production support
from Leah Porgis and Coco Levine. Our casting producer was
Lisa Storer. If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings,

(01:18:10):
or if you feel like you need a bit of help,
there are links in our show notes to resources available
to you right now, as well as how to connect
with my practice Motivated Minds. If you'd like to apply
to be on the next season of This Is Why
we fight. There's a link for the application in our
show notes too. I'm Sarah Bays. Thanks for listening.