October 27, 2025 • 68 mins
Marie has important truths to share about why she couldn’t be the mother Samantha deserved when she needed her most. Samantha, in turn, needs Marie to understand the trauma and confusion she still carries.
This session dives into what it takes to rebuild a broken bond — exploring the communication skills, empathy, and courage needed for true healing and reconnection.
Listen to the first part of Samantha & Marie's session here.
Resources (Australia-only)
- 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
- Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
- Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
- Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
- Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.
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- Host: Sarah Bays
- Executive Producer: Naima Brown
- Studio Engineer: Lu Hill
- Audio production: Thom Lion and Jacob Round
- Production support: Leah Porges and Coco Lavigne
- Follow This Is Why We Fight on Instagram for sneak peeks and more relationship therapy content
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
This podcast was recorded.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
On Welcome Back to This is why we fight, real people,
real problems, Real therapy.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
My name is Sarah Bays.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training
working with individuals, couples, and families. This is part two
of my sessions with mother and daughter Marie and Sam,
who are trying to see if they can rebuild a
relationship after years of estrangement, trauma, and confusion. The homework
I assigned Marie was to reflect and put down some
(00:52):
honest points around what was going on for her in
those earlier years of Sam's life and why she thinks
she wasn't able to be.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
The best mum that she could be at that time.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
The homework I assigned Sam was to think about how
she could envisage Marie having a relationship with her granddaughter
and how that might be the first step in reintegrating
into each other's lives. If you haven't listened to the
first session yet, go back and start there. Let's jump
back in. Here's session two with Sam and Marie. Hi,
(01:24):
Sam and Marie. It's good to see you guys again.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm interested to hear how things went over the last week,
how did you go with the homework or even week
before that. We could even sort of touch on whether
anything came up for either of you after the session. Often,
you know, sessions like this take a bit to process
and things can come up throughout the week. So I
don't know if anyone wanted to start there.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, I'd like to actually start, if that's okay. I
have had a very big week, not much sleep, i
have to say, but a lot of reflection and I
think that has been a huge learning curve for me.
And I sort of walked away going how am I
(02:14):
going to do this homework? Where is this going to
come from? But I've pretty much not thought of anything
else but homework, which is it's been a good thing.
So I'd like to start by saying apologizing for last week.
I mean, the tears was just that was over the top.
So I apologize to you, Sam.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
That was just the you is it not just? I know,
but that's not really that you have to apologize for
when you go to therapy. I think it's very expected.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, but I think for me, the realization was probably
not what I expected from me.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
In the session, wasn't what you expected.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
No, the realization of how I was going to feel
about the session, that what came out of the session,
I think was very confronting for me in the sense
of that the realization and actually hearing it from you,
which is totally understandable, but it was something that sort
(03:14):
of gave me insight. And I guess in our profession,
inside is always the first step to recognition, and once I,
I think gained the insight, the recognition has then followed.
And I've spent yeah, like I said, this past week
(03:34):
just reflecting and just processing and just coming up hopefully
with some answers, and that process itself was quite confronting
as well, the reflection of what I needed to actually
address in myself to be able to then begin the
(03:57):
healing process. I think that's where Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And I guess let's Stam sort of put her two
cents in there around what's how is that sitting with you?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
What you're hearing at the moment, Do.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
You want more? More?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Do you want more?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Like?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
What exactly do you mean or where are you sitting.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
So and I I'm very wary of the fact that
I don't I don't want to come across as a
am I about to swear.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I yea, we swear. You can say I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
I don't want to come across as a cold hatted
bitch basically is my And that's the biggest thing that
I took away from last week. And I've tried not
to focus on it too much because I'm like, Okay,
it doesn't really matter what other people think, you know, whatever,
I don't, you're here to help us. Yeah, I'm sure
you're not judging me. But it again, it's it's it's
what kind of like what we talked about, that whole
(05:04):
script kind of thing that and behaviors.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I've heard this stuff before, and I knew you'd say that,
and I can assure you that this is certainly not
a script I have done.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
And yeah, I'm not sorry I didn't minuscript, but I'm
just saying I've heard this stuff before, and it feels
like when you say it it's a bit of a script.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I agree, but the actually I guess the thinking and
because I, yes, I have said it before, but this
is different in the sense of that I actually finally
now do get it. And I've said I've got it before,
and I really haven't. It's as simple as that I
(05:46):
haven't really understood the gravity of the situation. And if
you let me explain about but the other part that
was part one, if you like let me explain about
the other part, you might have a bit more understanding
(06:08):
that this is not a script. I mean, it's it's
not necessarily the same content as what I have said
before because I've been looking at this from a different perspective.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
But it's hard for me to take any content that
you say in that sense. And it's like all that
pops into my head is that that's saying of for me,
for me once, shame on you, for me twice, shame
on me kind of thing like that. That's that's all
that pops into my head. Is. It doesn't matter whether
what the content is, it's whether or not, like yeah,
(06:41):
it's it's followed through, whether there is behavioral change and
whether there is actions you know after that. So could
I guess that's what that's why I see it with it.
I I don't want to sound like I don't want
to I just don't want to come across as someone
that's you know, unempathetic and not kind and not caring.
(07:03):
But I have been doing this for thirty eight years.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Sam, you don't, and you don't. You don't come across
as cold or not empathetic. I think you know, everyone
comes here with their own context and history, and of
course in a therapy session, we couldn't possibly cover all
the content and history of both of you individually and
then you know, work on the relationship together.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
It would take us a very long time.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So yeah, But so I look at this as you are.
You have this protective mechanism for a reason, right, So
this is how you've kept yourself safe emotionally in this relationship.
You've had to distance, you've had to not trust, you've
had to just kind of be skeptical and don't get
(07:47):
your hopes up and all.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Of those things.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right. So that's that's how I'm looking at this through
that lens. I'm not looking at this as here's Sam
being so cold to Marie and not listening or trying
to take in anything Marie is doing you.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yeah, but what I was really it's really hard because
you know what happens in the community. When I talk
about is to people, especially if they don't know me.
The first thing I get from people is, what, you
don't talk to your mother? Why not? Oh, but she's
your mother. And it's just there's so much guilt that
comes in from people, and you've got to, like you
(08:21):
get it used to deflecting it and stuff, but it's like,
it's really hard.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
People can be very judgmental about things.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
So it's nice to hear that that doesn't come across
that way.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But yeah, yeah, and I guess to see where we
can go with this for the purpose of, you know,
the therapy between the two of you together, are you
able to hold the you know, the skeptical, the suspicion,
the not sure if you're really going to follow through
with this. Like, I'm respecting that that's there, and I
(08:52):
think it's great that you've named it and put it
out there. It's clear, and I think it's important for
Marita here as well. But are you open to that
just being popped there in a little you know, I'm
thinking of it in like a little bubble above your head.
But are you still willing to sort of hear Marie
out and you're interested to hear some of the things
that she's come the.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Way I wouldn't be here right, yeah, and the way
I think that's you'd just be like, no, thank you,
toss it in a box and throw it away. Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And is that enough for you, Marie, at least knowing
that Sam is open to hearing and interested in listening
and working through this, of course.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And whether she believes me right now, she might not,
and it might take six months, might TAGI mighte deke three.
I don't know, But I mean, I guess all we
can do on your end is say your peace and
do what you can to then follow through. Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, And I guess again, coming to the insight that
I have over the past week, I've even actually put
some of what was said in practice in my life. Well,
when I say put some of it, I'm trying to
do that, and I'm not perfect, and I'm going to
(10:05):
falter because that's just part of the human thing. This
is a learned behavior that has been over a long
period of time, and it stems from a long time ago.
So it's going to take some time to actually adjust.
But to have that recognition and to be able to
(10:26):
actually self check, you know myself, and go, Okay, that
response wasn't the correct response. That's not what Sam needs
to hear, is I guess for me is where the
realization has come. And I have found myself during the
(10:48):
week going to say something to someone at work and
this is why I said, when it's been going on
for me for the whole week and I've actually had
to in my head stop and go, Okay, that's not
really what this conversation is about. This is not what
this person wants to hear. I need to focus on
(11:10):
what the person is saying and what that they want,
rather than bringing it back on to me, which is
what that which is where the realization now has come.
And look, you know it should have come years and
years and years and years ago, but I guess no
one has ever actually said to me what was said
(11:34):
last week. And I respect that and I am grateful
for it because it's really made me stop and think
about my responses because at the end of the day,
I do care, and I am extremely proud of Sam
and what she's achieved in life, and I'm you know,
(11:58):
what career choice she's taken and how well she does
in that career and her ability to to actually survive
and to to have a lovely husband and to have
a child and to do what she So I am
extremely proud of that, and you know, I just have
(12:18):
never been able to to voice it in a way
which has been it's always been mixed up in my
my needs and that's wrong, that that's as a as
a mother.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
But one therapy session doesn't fix everything, right, So you're
aware that the point that you can't completely change your
personality doesn't change anyway.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
But absolutely not. And I'm not saying that what, like
what I said before, is that it is a it
will be a process, and it will be something that
I will need to work on. But I won't get
it right every time. I won't because it's it's a
fallback mechanism for me, and I won't get it right.
(13:05):
But the fact of the matter now is that I
do understand and I do get it. I really like
and I have been reflecting, and let me talk about
if it's all right with you, let me talk about
the reasons if.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
We think about it.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I'm not sure whether this is what you're getting
at Marie, whether it's the homework for Marie was to
actually think about the why, the sort of why some
of this happened, what the barriers were for her to
be able to give you the type of parenting that
was required at the time.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
And so is that where you're going to, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Write and is that something Sam that you because I
hear what you're saying, Sam, where it's like, I don't
want to just have this barrage of being told all
this stuff. But I guess I was assuming it was
in response to what you had asked last week.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yes, okay, Yeah, that's fine, that's fine, that's a good redirection.
I just wasn't sure where we were where it was going.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, No, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
And I guess because I've had a lot in my
brain and like I said, I haven't slept much. I've
woken up thinking about it. I've gone to sleep thinking
about it. So I've I've I guess, I've got all
this in my head and it's it's for me. I
(14:25):
guess it's a bit of hope that that that I
have actually got the insight and the recognition now and
that that will enable us to do something, whether even
if it's something small going forward. That's I guess, you know,
(14:46):
and I understand where Sam's coming from. But I and
I'm I guess I.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Don't like how you say but after I understand where
Sam's coming from. But is it really hard word for
me to hear? Because then again, it's what we talked about,
how you're you're.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Excusing like no, no, I think that was when I
say but, wrong word, and I apologize for the wrong word,
but it's understand there's a butt again. Sorry, it's I
guess trying.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
To what if we put an end?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You know, So I understand where Sam's coming from, and
I really hope that over time she can.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Trust in me, because I guess that's sort of the
really the word I was looking for. And thank you
for that suggestion, because I don't always use the right words.
But and and it makes it difficult for Sam to
understand where I'm coming from, and it makes it difficult
(15:50):
for Sam to trust me. And that is something that
I understand and I would like to change. I think
that's the word that's probably and that is a better word.
(16:10):
Thank you Sarah for that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
That's okay, And it might not work every time, but
there I go, I say but too, but I do
try to swap to end if I'm trying not to
negate the thing I said before.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, if.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
You're if you're ready, and Sam is ready, and yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Are you ready Sam? To start with the homework. I
need to go back to my childhood and my childhood
yeah yeah, I know sixty and I'm not gonna it's
just a small snippet of my childhood, like a really
(16:49):
small snippet. So when I was very young. My parents
separated when I was ten, but prior to that, in
my head and I really been trying to search why.
But in my head, I really believed that my brother
was more important than me in my father's eyes. And
(17:11):
that's something I have never really addressed. But I don't
know where it comes from. I do have this memory
of when I was and I must have been three, five,
six seven, and little Nan was leaving with us at
that stage, and I remember my father coming home from
(17:31):
work and there was a jow of lollies up on
the top of the fridge, and my brother and I
were in the kitchen and he got the lollies down
and he goes, oh, mate, would you like a lolly?
And popped it back on the fridge. Now for a
five or six year old, and my little nan got
up and said, would you like one, sweetheart? You know,
blah blah blah blah. But for me, that's then been
(17:55):
a catalyst somewhere along the line for feeling inadequate. And
then at primary school I was bullied something shocking, really
really badly, to the point where I would quite often
not go to school. My mother never knew I wouldn't
go to school, but I was really badly bullied. So
I learnt very early to feel inadequate and feel like
(18:20):
I needed to justify myself and feel like I needed
to say, you know, hang on, I'm here. And that
was not the right way to look at it, but
that's where I truly believe that has come from. So
when it came to having children, in my head, and
this is a really hard thing to say, I believed
(18:40):
that I was having children that would love me, that
would actually really just I wouldn't have to do much.
I would have these children and they would be And
but bear in mind, I have never ever not wanted
any of you like you always all of you have
been important to me. But from that then, the learning
(19:06):
that I had, I was never able then to follow through.
It was there, you were there, that was great, but
I was never able to then give you what you
needed because of it, And that should have been something
though I addressed a long long time ago, and I
didn't address it. But what you said to me last week, Sam,
(19:27):
in regards to the way I made you feel and
what you missed out on, like I've heard it from you,
and I've heard it from your next sister down stopped
playing the victim. And I didn't really understand what stopped
playing the victim meant because in my head, I'd had
(19:49):
a hard time and YadA YadA, YadA and blah blah blah.
But I never really understood what that meant. And that's
what I mean by the learning curve, because now I
understand that it was my lack of being able to
give you what you wanted that has been and and
it's not that I didn't want to, and it's not
(20:10):
that I didn't love you or don't love you, and
it's not that I don't want to be have every
but I just expected it. I expected it to come
my way because I was your mother. And that is
the wrong attitude. You can see, I've had Sarah, I've
had lots of lots of thinking, and all I can
(20:35):
say to that, Sam is that I'm mixed, sorry, extremely
sorry that I was not able to do for you
what you needed. And I hope it's not too late
for me to go, Okay, yes, that's what I did wrong.
And I've even, like I said earlier, I've checked myself
(20:55):
at work when someone's told me something and I've immediately
wanted to go into what I did this, and then
I'm thinking, hang on, and I haven't said it because
it's like, that's not what they want to hear. That's
not that, that's not what this is about. And I
guess it's the very early feeling of being not important
(21:17):
and being being bullied and being not good enough. I
think is where correct me if I'm wrong, Sarah, am
I on the does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
It makes sense to me, And of course you know
I'm hearing all this for the first time about your
childhood and your life and in such small snippets, but
what you're saying is making sense. I think the way
that you and I'd love to hear Sam's response in
a moment, but I think the way that you've come
across today is much more other focused than self focused,
(21:52):
where last week the way you were was very much yeah,
but you were yeah, and you were emotionally overwhelmed, and
so I think it was very difficult to stay with
Sam and stay with what Sam needed. Whereas today I
feel like your emotions are a bit more in check,
which is no more you know, in these situations. But
I the way you've delivered your communication is much more
(22:15):
other focused.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I know Sam that.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It is still hard to We're not saying do you believe,
do you trust it all?
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Do you whatever?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But do you hear the communication is more focused on
you and your experience than it was last week.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Yeah, Yeah, like I think, and I think I wouldn't
expect anything other than in a therapy session to eventually
be able to, you know, change some behaviors. Yeah, it's
in air. The answer is yes to that.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Because I guess there'll be different things that trigger you,
you know that Marie says or does, and if we
can start lessening those things, and if one of those
things is communicating with you in a way that feels
like it's all about her, you know, that is one
of the barriers to you know, not the only barrier
but one of the marries to having the relationship with her, and.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I understand that. I understand that, and like I said that,
the insight to that has been quite confronting this week
because it's almost like not beating myself up. But it's that,
I guess it's I wish I had been able to
do it differently, and I didn't do it differently, And yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
But you had five chances to do it differently.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And I made a mistake on all of it, and
I think it was because of my inability, my inability
to provide that nurturing that you all need it.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
That's the key.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
Yeah, absolutely, when we come back from this short break,
we're going to hear how Sam is processing what Marie
is shared and the big feelings it stirs up for
them both don't go away.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
It's not like I haven't spent so much money in
therapy and many many years trying to come to the
conclusion that you couldn't It's not that you didn't love us.
It's that you couldn't love us because of the way
of your of your inability to be the person that
(24:38):
you needed to be for us. So it's not this
is not a new thing for me. I have come
to that conclusion and I discussed this with my brothers
and sisters as well about that that it's not that
you didn't love us, it's that you couldn't and it's
nothing to do with us as as children.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
No, No, it's not.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
What I guess where it gets difficult for me is
that there was five so like you had ample opportunity,
I guess to try and make it. And for me,
I really struggle understanding the perspective of if there's something
going wrong in your life that is not working for you,
especially when you are a well off woman in Australia
(25:22):
that has resources and you know it's not we've got
It's not like we didn't have money. We had money
and not a lot, but we had money. You know,
you could have gone and got therapy, you could have
I just I really just struggled to when things are
not working in your life to not fix it. If
(25:46):
that makes sense, So then why why has it taken
I guess I mean it's not why, but it just
it's I don't need to ask that question. It's more
about I find it difficult to understand why it's taken
this long. Yeah, and I think it get to that point.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Because yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think it's
the lack of insight. I think that's that's thinking that
perhaps I was doing a good job and blaming I
did do a good job, and blaming everything on everybody
else except myself.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
What it felt like sometimes that you were still responsibility
and accountability for your actions. And that's what we mean
by the victim, by playing the victim.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Absolutely, but it wasn't intentional, that's the thing. It wasn't
me going, oh, I'm just going to ignore what Sam
says and I'm just going to do what I want
to do because blah blah, I actually really thought that one. Okay,
I wasn't perfect, but I didn't do that bad a job,
all right. So that's what was in my head.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
I'm not saying, Yeah, I do forget about the mental
health like I mean, it is. It is. I do
get frustrated at sometimes at my husband when he's like,
it does that whole thing of like, wait, way anxious,
don't be anxious. Yeah, I'm like, I can't switch it off.
Just so I get that. I get that there is
that element of mental health, you know, and I never
blame for their own mental health issues. I get it
(27:09):
that there was probably you know, anxiety or a bit
of postpartum you know, at least not with me, but
with the other there was a couple that was evident
to me, postpartum depression. And then obviously you're still growing
as a person when you're in your twenties and you
had how many kids by the time you were twenty
thirty three three? I get that. I get that, and
(27:31):
I understand that, and I never meant to blame anyone
for their mental health issues, never, But I just think
that it could have. Like I had horrendous postpartum anxiety
and depression to the point where I couldn't do it,
you know, I didn't want to do that with my child,
(27:51):
So I went and I went back to therapy and
I started on some antidepressants. So like, I just think
that there are things if it's not working, that's why
I kind of get stuck with I guess that makes.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Sense, And I totally agree with you. And I'm on
antidepressants myself and have been for a while, and that's
certainly been helping. But it was the lack of my lack,
not yours, and not your brother and sisters. My lack
of understanding in an insight into my behavior, it was
(28:24):
it was looking at at it from a perspective, well,
this shouldn't be like they should love me, Like why
don't they love? Do you know what I mean? Rather
than actually going okay, yes, I stuffed up. Yes, I
need to own it. I need to actually sit down
with each of you and own the situation. And it
(28:49):
was never ever meant to be. I was never ever
meant to do this and to get it to this point,
you know, and you know this this ability to go
or this this non ability to actually have conversations because
I might say the wrong thing, Well, that's just ridiculous that,
you know. The more I thought about that during the work, God,
(29:09):
this is ridiculous. This is not what you need to hear.
You need to be able to have the conversations with me.
And this is what I mean by this insight, this healing,
that I'm not going to be perfect. I'm not going
to get it right, Sam, I'm not every time. But
I see, I really do see now, and I've said
that before. I know, but I don't know. The only
(29:34):
way I can prove it to you is to ask
you to take a leap of faith and just give
me a small snippet and I'll I'll work on it
and I'll show you that that's the only thing I
can do. But I'm I'm worried about that because I
don't want it to affect you. But I need you
(29:56):
in my life because you know you are my child
and I do love you and I do want you
in my life. But I understand too that if it's
too hard.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
There's no need.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
It is a need. It's a need, and I want
again the wrong word.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
But that's that's all I can That's fine. I can
understand that. I can. I listen when you said, you're
talking about your childhood and and all your insecurities and
your feelings have in adequacy and all those things. So
I understand. I I listened to that, and I've heard
(30:33):
that I have. I would have to think about that
feeling that I'm that I have around that It's not
something that I can is automatically going to change my
mind right now. You know, I'm very good at keeping busy,
(30:55):
so like compartmentalizing, yeah, yeah, and then when I do
sit down and deal with it, maybe trying to understand
it from someone else's perspective, which would be my mother's
obs would be helpful, I guess, and something that I'm
willing to do.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, I don't think there's anything that Marie could have
said that was going to make you go, oh, well
that's okay. Then like that that wasn't It wasn't the
point of the exercise really, you know, a bit more
just you know, you were asking why and and I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I think there's also sometimes there's just things that we
can't relate to in another.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
I think that's what I struggled with, is the relating
to that with all the resources we had. Yeah, I
struggled with that relation.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, and I think that that's a really common struggle
for a lot of people, you know, in this generation.
I think, you know, baby boomers can be and I,
oh god, I don't want to be, you know, crucified
over this one. But people from the baby boomer generation
and before have been much less inclined to go to therapy,
have been much less open to getting support, talking about things, all.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Of that type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
And it's not an excuse, but what I'm saying is
that it's created this generational.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Thing where there are a lot of people, Yeah, where
there's a.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Lot of people who are like, you know, if only
my parents had gotten the support, and why didn't they?
Speaker 3 (32:25):
And I think there's a lot of that yeah happening.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
And it's not even about support for me. It's about
just changing your actions, like you know, if something isn't working,
don't keep doing it. I have been to which is
which is stupid. I get that. I get that, and
that's sorry that that's my That's just what I go
to because that's who I am as a person, and
(32:51):
sometimes I'm not. I'm quite ecocentric in that in that way. Sorry,
I don't I understand that people haven't you know, all
these problems addiction and things like that. And again I
don't want to sound insensitive, and I get it.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
But I've been to counseling, but I've never really Again
it's the counseling has always been about me, because that's
the way. So you can only have counseling and sort
out something when you actually have the insight and the understanding.
And I've been there, Oh woe is me. My kids
(33:26):
do not talk to me, you know, And it's it's
been dealing with that side rather than actually, and I've
never come across a counselor yet that has said to me, Okay,
let's let's go back, let's talk about this, let's talk
about that. And because of that, I haven't.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Really find yourself a better one then I don't. Yes,
but that's all I did in my therapy. When did
this begin, Well that was that time I was three
years old, And yeah, I totally agree with you.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
But I haven't had the realization you can't talk about
something that you don't realize. And so this this homework
has been, like I said, quite confronting because it's made
me really think about it, and I really wanted to
think about it because I wanted to give you Sam
(34:20):
the best answer. No, not best, that's the wrong way,
the most honest answer. So that has actually created quite
a lot of emotions and a lot of things that
I didn't like about myself that I've had that I
now have to confront because I don't like it about
(34:41):
myself because I've allowed it to be like that for
and yeah, it's it's not and that is not an excuse.
It's just me recognizing I think what I needed what
And now it has given me direction on what I
need to do. And like I said, I won't be perfect.
I won't. I'm going to stuff it up, I'm sure
(35:03):
along the way.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
But I guess it can be a good reference point.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Sometimes we built some type of understanding about something, even
if you go back to our default, whether it be
through your own recognition of it or Sam prompting you,
it can be a reference point of like, hey, you're
doing that thing again.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Now you know what that thing is.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Absolutely, oh, I get it. So prompting can be a
good reference point back to that.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Absolutely, I agree, absolutely, because it's never intentional. That's the thing.
It's never meant to be. It's created the situation and
from that that needs to be changed because the situation
that wherein has been my creation. But I really now
(35:51):
need to find a way not to do that. And
I think, just like what Sarah said, Sam, put your
hand up, seriously, you're doing it again because it's never
been intentional, honestly, well nothing.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I know that. I know that, And like I get
quite regimented in this relationship and my emotions with this relationship. Yeah,
and I sometimes I'm not fair to you, and I
don't know why. Sarah you might be able to enlighten
me or why I'm not. But I mean, I work
(36:27):
in health care, and I work in I work in
physical health care, and I work and mental health as well,
and I'm so forgiving and I'm so understanding of people
when they come in, you know, and they've got their issues,
and I do everything I can, I guess too, understand
(36:48):
and help. But then when I am in this relationship
and she says all that stuff, it's really hard for
me to feel sorry for her. And there is a
barrier to understanding that because of the fact that I've
let no. But but traditionally you should. If I was,
(37:13):
you know, a good person, you would understand your family
more than you would a person on the outside.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
But your family can hurt you so much more than
a person on the outside. A person on the outside
could never hurt you like your mom could, even with
good intention, you know. So I think I don't think
you lack empathy, even.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Towards your mother. I think actually fear.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
And pain and anger overrides the empathy because if I
allow myself to be empathetic, I might get hurt again.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah, I don't think you don't have it.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I think it's been blocked like it's other things that
are in front of it.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
I just, I just I'm not I'm not as understanding
as I would as I could be when when I'm
you know, in the community doing my job and I
love my job, like I love talking to people and
I love yeah, I love all that stuff and I
don't know why. So I guess that's another reflection point
for me. But anyway, sorry off track, I was just
(38:13):
thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
No, but I think it is.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, I think it is a good point because we
also sort of ended on that a little bit last
week around you know, where do I like, if you
know you're here for a reason, I'm open to the process.
That's not giving any promises about where it's going to go,
but I'm open to hearing and participating and engaging. And
(38:37):
where do I find myself getting in the way of that,
And it will be some of those emotions that are
still unprocessed in certain areas or you know, it's normal
to have an emotional reaction which then blocks us from
feeling empathy towards a loved one in any circumstance. You know,
the minute we feel threatened or angry or hurt, we
(38:59):
struggle to feel empathy with anyone.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
So don't they say that anger Empathy is the opposite
emotion to anger, So then when you have anger, you
should try and feel empathetic towards someone and then, yes, exactly,
which is really hard to do.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yes, yeah, and it might feel unfair, and particularly in
some circumstances where we've had children that are parentified, which
essentially sounded like where you took on a bit of
a parentified role. Often that is quite a draining role
for a young person and you know, not an appropriate
role for them to be in, but when they do
step into that, it can feel very hard to feel
(39:37):
empathetic when you've had to do the job of a parent.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yeah, and that when you talk about that, that is
what upsets me the most, I think, and I think
that's what I get. Yeah, my siblings and happening to
take that role on and then never still never being
enough and just yeah, that's where that put.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
This way, never being enough to your siblings or to your.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Just enough to anyone. Then that's a lot of the
stuff that I dealt with in my twenties of never started,
would never be enough for my mother, never being enough
for my siblings, never being smart enough at school, never
being skinny enough, never never been good enough to my friends,
and then when boyfriends came along dating the wrong men,
(40:29):
because you know, it just it was just a lot
of that which I dealt with. But it's still is
probably one of my barriers. It's just never feeling enough.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, there were very big shoes to feel, and shoes
that you could never possibly feel. How do you feel
the shoes that a parent is supposed to be? It's
an unwinnable game. Yeah, what's it like for you, Marie?
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Just listening there?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
And hmmm, I think probably for me it instills guilt
and because it was very unfair for this to happen
(41:23):
to Sam. It was, it was very unfair and it
should never have happened, and it shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
But it did happen, absolutely, and now we're dealing with
the ramifications of it.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yeah, and I'm hearing that, and and it's I'm just
very really extremely sorry I wasn't able to be there
for you. I wish I was, but I actually I wasn't.
And again thought I was doing a good job and
obviously really wasn't. And that I I feel you.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
That's all right. I thought you were doing a good
job too, until I was like eighteen and I realized,
I'm like, quie am I sou? Why am I like this?
That's right?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I thought I was doing a good job. But and
the truth of the matter is that I created the
situation that upset you and made it difficult for you
and has affected your life, and that that's not fair.
And I do all I can do is I mean,
this isn't even an apology big enough to give you
(42:33):
for that.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
But I think that what I will say.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
What I will say is that from looking from what
I see, you are good enough, and you are strong enough,
and you've turned into this, this amazing woman who's been
able to rise through the adversity and actually do what
(43:01):
you're doing now, and that even though there's been men
more input from me, especially over the last fifteen years,
you've still managed to do that. And I'm extremely proud
of you. And I'm extremely I'm extremely proud.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
And you see how uncomfortable this makes me. No, I'm listening, Sorry,
it just it's very hard for me to listen because.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
It does what does it bring up?
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Oh? I just don't ah, it just.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
It's like.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Something that I have I have is when people give
me compliments. And in my day to day life, I'm
very good at going Oh that makes me uncomfortable, but hey,
thank you so much. Yes, actually you know what I did,
do a good job or And I'm to that point
now in my career where I can't talk about the
good things that I'm doing. Very proud and you know,
(44:07):
like said, but when it comes from the person that
it should have come from when you were a child,
rather than being told hey, I actually don't I don't
know all I do. All I do remember being praised
for is not for being kind, not for being caring,
(44:29):
not for being organized, not for being not for beings
good at were you know, not for trying hard. I
didn't get praised for any of that. I got praised.
Oh you're so skinny. You should be a model when
you grow up. That's what I remember you saying. And
that's the only thing I can think in my head
when when you praise, when you said I was good,
And that's why it took me such a long time.
(44:52):
I was very, very skinny, like I was just like
very athletic, did a lot of sport, did a lot
of you know, dancing and things like that. That's all
that comes to my head, not and it's taken me
twenty five years. I don't know, however, long since I
was twenty seve in therapy. Forty years of realizing that
(45:13):
I'm more than that, and that I am kind and
that I'm caring and so that when it comes from
the person that should come from it should have come from,
it makes me uncomfortable. And I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Well, I think the relationship doesn't hasn't built the trust
and the safety there yet for you to be able
to receive it.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
So, you know, yeah, and yeah, I think.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Like a stranger. It's like a stranger coming up to
you and saying.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
It right, Yeah, there's not that exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
There's not that sort of trust and safety and value
around what I mean to this person. And you know,
I think that that makes sense that it would make
you feel a bit uncomfortable for now. And I think
even just having that as an awareness, So it's not
to say Marie, never compliment her again, it's not about that,
but just even understanding you know, Okay, I know that, yes,
(46:00):
I still if I you know, feel I want to
tell her something that I really appreciate or love about her.
I will, but I will maybe not say too many
or not or check in with how she's feeling or
read the body language, and if I can see she's
sort of shrinking away, then I'll, you know, leave it.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
At that and change the topic to kind of just yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
And I guess I will if I get the opportunity
down the track. But I guess this was in response
to the situation right now. So if I did make
you feel uncomfortable, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that, but.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
It sounds like it's how you felt and it felt
important to say it.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
It did, Yes, yes it did, because it's always been there.
It's just never come from here out to where it
needed to be. It's always been in here. And I
think that yes, they have never felt loved, Yes they've
never and that there is no there's no. I can't
(47:05):
make light of that at all. So if that's luck,
I was making a lot of it. That's not what
I was coming from.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
But and.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I no, I didn't always say or didn't say what
was in here, But I will use about this. But
it's always been there.
Speaker 4 (47:25):
M yeah, And I mean it's not completely delicious. It's
not like, you know, we're not. Plenty of people without
love from their mothers go on to be very successful,
and I would count myself as that. So it's not
like it's ruined me for life. It's just been hard.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
After this break, we'll hear from Sam about how she
went with her homework, thinking of the ways that Marie
might be able to spend more time with her granddaughter
back in a tick. I'm wondering on your in Sam, whether, yeah,
(48:14):
if we just touch a bit on the homework for you,
whether you've had a bit of clarity around what you're
open to what that would look like.
Speaker 4 (48:25):
So mine is highlighted and indock points so we can,
of course as the studios the student that I am.
So yeah, it's sorry, it's quite long, so I won't
go into it too much. But basically, I just wrote
down how I'd be open to a relationship with my mother.
(48:46):
Number one would begin virtual contact, obviously, so this is
this is RC sorry for my daughter as well, because
we talked about that being the main relationship before I'm
able to do anything. From our perspective, I guess.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
So when you say virtual, does that mean just your daughter,
or will you be a part of that or no,
I'll be there.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
Yeah, I'll be there. She's only two and a half,
so she can't really figure out how to yeah, basically,
and then she doesn't really sit there anymore. Through video calls.
She likes to run around the house and then I'm
often chasing her anyway, So.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
You'll be a part of that.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
I'll be a part of it. We can discuss things. Yeah,
So it would be virtual contact and obviously because of
the distance constraint, it has to start with that anyway. Sure, Yeah,
phone calls, messages, let us maybe some small gifts for her,
and then we can discuss that together in the virtual
contact and light conversations. You know, she's really into ballet
(49:45):
at the moment, so we can you know, discuss that.
And basically it would have to be building familiarity so
we know that it's safe before in person visits I
think was the main thing, and then moving on to
maybe special occasions or holidays visiting and that would be
(50:08):
fine too. I know we talked about boundaries as well,
so it has to be organized if the visits occur.
You can't just come out of the blue, which you've
done before and say hey, I'm on the Gold Coast.
Do your mind? Do you want to catch up the
(50:30):
day before? That for me doesn't work, especially one because
of my busy life, but two, I often will need
time to prepare mentally for that visit.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
The nervous system. The nervous system needs to prepare. Yeah, right,
for both of you.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Actually, I think for both of you, the nervous system
just needs to prepare and be in a calm and
steady place before meeting up.
Speaker 4 (50:54):
Yeah. And I think if we just focus I'm quite
because of my uncomfortableness of the relationship between you and me,
I think it has.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
To be.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
Have a my daughter, there is a really good buffer.
It's a good it's a good like. If it's focused
on her rather than us to start with, I think
that's a good stepping stone.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
I think from that we might be able to then
build a bridge.
Speaker 4 (51:22):
Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, I think showing interest in her is
a good start because I know I'm not going to
get the childhood that I deserved back, but at least
I've got something to focus on with her. So having yeah,
and she has she does have quite a few I'm
(51:45):
very We're very lucky Sarah in that we've still got
quite a few grandparents still alive, even great grandparents.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (51:54):
So yeah, actually speaking of her, that Nan is visiting me,
my Nan so her great mom's mum and hobbies. Great
grandma is visiting on the Gold Coast at the moment.
Oh wow yeah, yeah, sorry, Yeah, we still go to
fu So's. She's not she's not like it wouldn't put
(52:14):
her out having another grandparent around.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Well, no, the more the merry, a right, But yeah,
and I wonder whether you, like, would you want to
ask Marie to let you be leading in terms of
how and when things might if they do go that
way transition to also a bit of a relationship between
the two of you. So you know, you're saying I
wanted the focus to be my daughter and and we
(52:38):
can spend time together around her, and we're mainly sort
of chatting and playing and doing that with her. And
then if there's a stage where you want to offer
direct that, yeah, so you want to be in the lead.
Speaker 4 (52:50):
I probably would prefer to be in the lead with that.
I mean, I'm open to suggestions and things like I'm
not going to say if you start asking me, just
say we're talking and you start asking me about something
it's going on in my life, like I'm gonna be like, hey,
I don't want to discuss that, like be open to
you know, talking about it. It maybe from a superficial perspective.
I'm not going to be like, oh my god, I'm
(53:10):
having the worst time with this person or whatever. It's
not going to be very deep if I don't feel comfortable,
but certainly I won't I won't put it down. If
it is discussed and brought up, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Was there anything else that you were worried about or
boundaries that you felt were important to share.
Speaker 4 (53:31):
Or yeah, it was the main one with the visits
interstate not being unannounced, And I guess also not a barrier,
more of a boundary. I guess that it may take
me longer to adjust, so don't expect immediate results. I think.
Speaker 3 (53:54):
So you're saying give me time.
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Yeah, Yeah, this is you know, thirty eight years in
the making. It's not going to reverse itself overnight.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
But yeah, and I think that message can really be
reflected to both for on both ends. Right, I'm I'm
assuming Marie is also going give me time to get
it right, and you know, be changing some of the
things I need to be changing, and Sam saying, give
me time to.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Process, process, soften. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Is there anything for you, Marie there in terms of
the things that Sam just brought.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Up, No, not at all. I'm very excited for any contact.
I'd love to see my granddaughter. So from that, I'm
willing just to be directed by what Sam wants and
what I understand where she's coming from, feeling comfortable, et cetera.
(54:53):
So I'm willing just to be able to leave let her.
Speaker 4 (54:59):
I guess I don't want to leave the whole thing though.
That's a big point, Like it'll be again you doing
like like you used to do, of sending a mess
and then saying something and then not following through with it.
I guess like there have been times when she said
to me, oh, hey, I'm coming up to visit and
then oh, I've got these flights coming up, and then
(55:19):
pulled out of it the last minute, Like that kind
of stuff is where it's been and then so yeah,
problematic for me because then you know, you get prepared
and you get it all sorted and then yeah, and
then there has been times when she's just rocked up
and so it's very like haphazard in that sense. So
I think if you want, if you say, hey, I'm
going to visit, can I not Hey, I'm coming up?
(55:44):
Do you mind if I I'm coming up to the
Gold Coast, it'd be great to see you, rather than
and then actually falling through with it, rather than saying yeah, okay,
I'm here.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Kind of thing that has stemmed from yeah, absolutely, and
that makes total sense. And it's that's me demonstrating respect
to you because I have demonstrated that, and I think
demonstrated respect for your life and what you're doing. It's
been me you going yeah, it's been me focused, and
(56:22):
it shouldn't have been me focused, and I understand that that,
and so I have not use that respect, but again
respected what you needed and what your life entails. So
that I'm working, I will work on.
Speaker 4 (56:39):
And also don't just sit back and do nothing, because
then again it's not going back into old patterns.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
I think, don't be interested, being engaged, asking and but
also asking in an open way where if Sam is
like that's too soon for me or can we not
do that? But I'd be okay with this, you know.
So I guess it's putting it out there and then
working with Sam with what feels okay.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Do you know what? It'll be an actual adult conversation, which.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
Will be.
Speaker 4 (57:09):
Well, that's a change from my life at the moment,
because all I talk about is blocks and bluely.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
So having that respectful adult conversation is something that we
probably haven't had, and that is where where I want
to start with it and see where that goes. The
risk and having their respect and the care and the
understanding and demonstrating it, not just going oh, well it's
(57:37):
in here. Well, you know, it's no point being in here.
It needs to be out there. And that is where
hopefully I will be able to demonstrate that. And I
think that will then go away too. And it might
not be perfect, and it might not. It will take
a while, but you know.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
But I think trusting that if that Sam can communicate,
if it's not hitting the mark or if it's you know, something,
then Sam can communicate that. And the hope is that
then you can hear and receive it, have a think
and do it again different, you know, like that's all
it is.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Absolutely absolutely if I can move us into home work,
you know, just for the two of you to kind
of continue this process in terms of each working on
the things on your end.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
I think Sam, you brought up a really great point
about the empathy and anger and when other emotions get
in the way, and I would probably be I feel
like the homework for you could be something around like
holding both you know, how can I hold anger, pain,
resentment for you, you know whatever about what happened with
(58:48):
mum and about childhood with mum? And can I also
hold empathy? Like am I able to have that not
dismiss or invalidate those things that are real and happened
and have impacted me in these ways, And also see
if I can hold a little bit of empathy at
the same time, because that's a tough one. It's tough
(59:09):
for anybody, right, and I think particularly with the more
significant the trauma, the more difficult it is to hold
empathy at the same time. And it's not empathizing around abuse,
but it's empathizing around this situation in which it occurred,
If that makes sense, some more contextual empathy rather than yeah,
like I do with everyone else, Well that's right, yeah,
(59:29):
but that's right. Yeah, But you know this, it's different
because everybody else hasn't hurt you the same way a
parent could do. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (59:36):
Yeah, yeah, Now that's actually really interesting and also like
a good driver for me, the personal growth aspect is
a good driver for me to want to do that homework. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
It's a great skill to have and it's something that
I think, yeah, could be used in a lot of scenarios,
but I think with this one, particularly in your relationship,
it could help. And for you, Marie, I'm thinking around,
You're on a good path with this self focused versus
other focused, right, And how can I become more and
(01:00:09):
more aware in the moment and be flipping it so
when I when I'm saying things, when I'm doing things,
am I is it coming from an anxious drive, from
an emotional drive or is it actually a thoughtful response
to what the other person is saying to me?
Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
And I think that you're on a good track there. Yeah,
so I.
Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Would be continuing with doing that. And I think it's
around how can I be consistent? I feel like consistency
is going to be your best friend. Whatever you say
to Sam, be following through, if to the letter and
I I and if it's something needs to change, no problem,
communicate it, be consistent about it, Like, I think communication
(01:00:50):
and consistency will be the thing that helps rebuild that trust.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Yeah, Okay, I can do that. And not only can
I do that, I need to do that. I need
And Sam touched on personal growth. That's going to be
my personal growth and I think that will then hopefully
enable us to have some type of relationship, which would
(01:01:15):
be really good.
Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Ook, I appreciate both of you really sticking through this work.
It's not easy at all, but you've both been super
patient and tolerant with me but also each other, you know,
in sometimes hearing things that we don't want.
Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
To hear or we do, but it's tough to listen to,
you know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
And you've both been so respectful towards each other throughout
this whole process, which is really I commend you because
it can be hard when there's a lot of big feelings.
Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Yeah, and no tears this week, which is good.
Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Yeah, although you know, teas is okay, but and you know, look,
there's a lot of anxiety and pressure that goes to
that first session, particularly when there hasn't been contact for
so long.
Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
You know, it's more real contact, it's honest, real contact,
and I think that's what we needed to have a
better understanding. I certainly needed it to have a better understanding.
I won't speak for Sam, but for me, I needed
the truth. I think that the truth has you know,
(01:02:28):
even though it's been confronting, it's certainly been an important
step for me.
Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
All Right, guys, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Well, I'm feeling very hopeful, I think more so than
last session. I feel that we have had a breakthrough
and that there is perhaps a chance of some reconciliation,
which has always been my goal. I don't think she
(01:03:12):
expected to hear what I had to say, and I
think she needs to process that, and that is very understandable.
I think she.
Speaker 4 (01:03:25):
Is very.
Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Nervous to trust me. She wants to. I think she
wants to, but she just in from what's happened. She
just can't right now, and I think hopefully that will
change as we go forward. To be allowed to be
in her daughter's life is a big step. So I
(01:03:49):
think she wouldn't be here if she didn't want to
have something. So that. Yeah, That's where I'm at with
that now.
Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
How am I feeling after the second session that we
just had is pretty positive. Yeah, Like I think it
went pretty well. I think that my mother and I
are at a good place to take this forward. So
I would have to say positive, surprisingly positive, because I
didn't actually think that I was going to get much
(01:04:35):
out of it. I thought that I would probably walk
away not wanting to have a relationship. But at least
I'm open to it now, so positive is the right word.
I am not sure how Marie would be feeling right now.
I would hope that she is feeling the same as
(01:04:56):
me positive about our last session. If I had to
take a guess, I think she's feeling pretty good. I
think she did well with her homework, so she should
probably give herself a pat on the back for that.
At least. What do I think is next for the
two of us? I would have to say I definitely
(01:05:21):
think more therapy is only going to be beneficial. I
think I would like to hope that we could have
some more sessions. I think, but in terms of away
from therapy, I would hope that we might be able
(01:05:42):
to start even just a not actual phone calls, but
more text messages or like sharing of I'm happy to
share some photos or some videos of my daughter and
just see where it goes. From there.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
I'm really pleased with the progress that it's been made
across these two sessions. Sam and Marie have been working
so hard in what I can only imagine has been
a very draining, scary, yeah experience for them, where I
wonder whether this would have been possible even a few
(01:06:25):
years ago or one year ago. You know, I really
believe that things have to happen when people are ready
for it, and I think this is something that we
can see in Marie's progress, particularly where potentially she's been
told these things before, or things have been said to
her and she's thought that she understood and thought she
took it in, but really it hadn't been landing. And
(01:06:48):
I think there was a real breakthrough there for her
last week and that I was just so happy to
see that she really took it on and reflected around
how her communication style has been getting in the way
of Sam feeling heard and actually validated in her experience,
which I think was a big block to them actually
(01:07:10):
progressing with any type of relationship.
Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
So I couldn't be happier with that progress.
Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
And in terms of Sam, I think she has really
been thoughtful and open to what type of way she
can allow Marie to come back into her life and
prove and show that she is there to be consistent,
find a way to feel like a family again, and
(01:07:36):
be able to repair some of that rupture that's been
there for so many years now. So although we can
see Sam's hesitancy and you know, the protective mechanisms there,
I think she is really allowing it to move forward,
which is fantastic to see. This Is Why We Fight
(01:08:01):
was created by Nama Brown and Eliza Sommon Nilsen. The
executive producer is Naim Abro. Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.
Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound
design by Jacob Brown. Additional production support from Leah Porgus
and Coco Levine. Our casting producer.
Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
Was Lisa Storer.
Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings or
if you just feel like you need a bit of help,
there are links in our show notes to resources available
to you right now, as well as how to connect
with my practice Motivated Minds. If you'd like to apply
to be on the next season of This Is Why
We Fight, there's a link for the application in our
show notes too. You can Listen to part one of
(01:08:45):
my session with Sam and Marie. Wherever you listen to
your podcast right now and I'm your host, Sarah Bays.
Thanks for listening.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
This podcast was recorded.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
On Welcome Back to This is why we fight, real people,
real problems, Real therapy.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
My name is Sarah Bays.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training
working with individuals, couples, and families. This is part two
of my sessions with mother and daughter Marie and Sam,
who are trying to see if they can rebuild a
relationship after years of estrangement, trauma, and confusion. The homework
I assigned Marie was to reflect and put down some
(00:52):
honest points around what was going on for her in
those earlier years of Sam's life and why she thinks
she wasn't able to be.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
The best mum that she could be at that time.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
The homework I assigned Sam was to think about how
she could envisage Marie having a relationship with her granddaughter
and how that might be the first step in reintegrating
into each other's lives. If you haven't listened to the
first session yet, go back and start there. Let's jump
back in. Here's session two with Sam and Marie. Hi,
(01:24):
Sam and Marie. It's good to see you guys again.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm interested to hear how things went over the last week,
how did you go with the homework or even week
before that. We could even sort of touch on whether
anything came up for either of you after the session. Often,
you know, sessions like this take a bit to process
and things can come up throughout the week. So I
don't know if anyone wanted to start there.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, I'd like to actually start, if that's okay. I
have had a very big week, not much sleep, i
have to say, but a lot of reflection and I
think that has been a huge learning curve for me.
And I sort of walked away going how am I
(02:14):
going to do this homework? Where is this going to
come from? But I've pretty much not thought of anything
else but homework, which is it's been a good thing.
So I'd like to start by saying apologizing for last week.
I mean, the tears was just that was over the top.
So I apologize to you, Sam.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
That was just the you is it not just? I know,
but that's not really that you have to apologize for
when you go to therapy. I think it's very expected.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, but I think for me, the realization was probably
not what I expected from me.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
In the session, wasn't what you expected.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
No, the realization of how I was going to feel
about the session, that what came out of the session,
I think was very confronting for me in the sense
of that the realization and actually hearing it from you,
which is totally understandable, but it was something that sort
(03:14):
of gave me insight. And I guess in our profession,
inside is always the first step to recognition, and once I,
I think gained the insight, the recognition has then followed.
And I've spent yeah, like I said, this past week
(03:34):
just reflecting and just processing and just coming up hopefully
with some answers, and that process itself was quite confronting
as well, the reflection of what I needed to actually
address in myself to be able to then begin the
(03:57):
healing process. I think that's where Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And I guess let's Stam sort of put her two
cents in there around what's how is that sitting with you?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
What you're hearing at the moment, Do.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
You want more? More?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Do you want more?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Like?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
What exactly do you mean or where are you sitting.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
So and I I'm very wary of the fact that
I don't I don't want to come across as a
am I about to swear.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I yea, we swear. You can say I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
I don't want to come across as a cold hatted
bitch basically is my And that's the biggest thing that
I took away from last week. And I've tried not
to focus on it too much because I'm like, Okay,
it doesn't really matter what other people think, you know, whatever,
I don't, you're here to help us. Yeah, I'm sure
you're not judging me. But it again, it's it's it's
what kind of like what we talked about, that whole
(05:04):
script kind of thing that and behaviors.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I've heard this stuff before, and I knew you'd say that,
and I can assure you that this is certainly not
a script I have done.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
And yeah, I'm not sorry I didn't minuscript, but I'm
just saying I've heard this stuff before, and it feels
like when you say it it's a bit of a script.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I agree, but the actually I guess the thinking and
because I, yes, I have said it before, but this
is different in the sense of that I actually finally
now do get it. And I've said I've got it before,
and I really haven't. It's as simple as that I
(05:46):
haven't really understood the gravity of the situation. And if
you let me explain about but the other part that
was part one, if you like let me explain about
the other part, you might have a bit more understanding
(06:08):
that this is not a script. I mean, it's it's
not necessarily the same content as what I have said
before because I've been looking at this from a different perspective.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
But it's hard for me to take any content that
you say in that sense. And it's like all that
pops into my head is that that's saying of for me,
for me once, shame on you, for me twice, shame
on me kind of thing like that. That's that's all
that pops into my head. Is. It doesn't matter whether
what the content is, it's whether or not, like yeah,
(06:41):
it's it's followed through, whether there is behavioral change and
whether there is actions you know after that. So could
I guess that's what that's why I see it with it.
I I don't want to sound like I don't want
to I just don't want to come across as someone
that's you know, unempathetic and not kind and not caring.
(07:03):
But I have been doing this for thirty eight years.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Sam, you don't, and you don't. You don't come across
as cold or not empathetic. I think you know, everyone
comes here with their own context and history, and of
course in a therapy session, we couldn't possibly cover all
the content and history of both of you individually and
then you know, work on the relationship together.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
It would take us a very long time.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So yeah, But so I look at this as you are.
You have this protective mechanism for a reason, right, So
this is how you've kept yourself safe emotionally in this relationship.
You've had to distance, you've had to not trust, you've
had to just kind of be skeptical and don't get
(07:47):
your hopes up and all.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Of those things.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right. So that's that's how I'm looking at this through
that lens. I'm not looking at this as here's Sam
being so cold to Marie and not listening or trying
to take in anything Marie is doing you.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yeah, but what I was really it's really hard because
you know what happens in the community. When I talk
about is to people, especially if they don't know me.
The first thing I get from people is, what, you
don't talk to your mother? Why not? Oh, but she's
your mother. And it's just there's so much guilt that
comes in from people, and you've got to, like you
(08:21):
get it used to deflecting it and stuff, but it's like,
it's really hard.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
People can be very judgmental about things.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
So it's nice to hear that that doesn't come across
that way.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But yeah, yeah, and I guess to see where we
can go with this for the purpose of, you know,
the therapy between the two of you together, are you
able to hold the you know, the skeptical, the suspicion,
the not sure if you're really going to follow through
with this. Like, I'm respecting that that's there, and I
(08:52):
think it's great that you've named it and put it
out there. It's clear, and I think it's important for
Marita here as well. But are you open to that
just being popped there in a little you know, I'm
thinking of it in like a little bubble above your head.
But are you still willing to sort of hear Marie
out and you're interested to hear some of the things
that she's come the.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Way I wouldn't be here right, yeah, and the way
I think that's you'd just be like, no, thank you,
toss it in a box and throw it away. Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And is that enough for you, Marie, at least knowing
that Sam is open to hearing and interested in listening
and working through this, of course.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And whether she believes me right now, she might not,
and it might take six months, might TAGI mighte deke three.
I don't know, But I mean, I guess all we
can do on your end is say your peace and
do what you can to then follow through. Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, And I guess again, coming to the insight that
I have over the past week, I've even actually put
some of what was said in practice in my life. Well,
when I say put some of it, I'm trying to
do that, and I'm not perfect, and I'm going to
(10:05):
falter because that's just part of the human thing. This
is a learned behavior that has been over a long
period of time, and it stems from a long time ago.
So it's going to take some time to actually adjust.
But to have that recognition and to be able to
(10:26):
actually self check, you know myself, and go, Okay, that
response wasn't the correct response. That's not what Sam needs
to hear, is I guess for me is where the
realization has come. And I have found myself during the
(10:48):
week going to say something to someone at work and
this is why I said, when it's been going on
for me for the whole week and I've actually had
to in my head stop and go, Okay, that's not
really what this conversation is about. This is not what
this person wants to hear. I need to focus on
(11:10):
what the person is saying and what that they want,
rather than bringing it back on to me, which is
what that which is where the realization now has come.
And look, you know it should have come years and
years and years and years ago, but I guess no
one has ever actually said to me what was said
(11:34):
last week. And I respect that and I am grateful
for it because it's really made me stop and think
about my responses because at the end of the day,
I do care, and I am extremely proud of Sam
and what she's achieved in life, and I'm you know,
(11:58):
what career choice she's taken and how well she does
in that career and her ability to to actually survive
and to to have a lovely husband and to have
a child and to do what she So I am
extremely proud of that, and you know, I just have
(12:18):
never been able to to voice it in a way
which has been it's always been mixed up in my
my needs and that's wrong, that that's as a as
a mother.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
But one therapy session doesn't fix everything, right, So you're
aware that the point that you can't completely change your
personality doesn't change anyway.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
But absolutely not. And I'm not saying that what, like
what I said before, is that it is a it
will be a process, and it will be something that
I will need to work on. But I won't get
it right every time. I won't because it's it's a
fallback mechanism for me, and I won't get it right.
(13:05):
But the fact of the matter now is that I
do understand and I do get it. I really like
and I have been reflecting, and let me talk about
if it's all right with you, let me talk about
the reasons if.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
We think about it.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I'm not sure whether this is what you're getting
at Marie, whether it's the homework for Marie was to
actually think about the why, the sort of why some
of this happened, what the barriers were for her to
be able to give you the type of parenting that
was required at the time.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
And so is that where you're going to, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Write and is that something Sam that you because I
hear what you're saying, Sam, where it's like, I don't
want to just have this barrage of being told all
this stuff. But I guess I was assuming it was
in response to what you had asked last week.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yes, okay, Yeah, that's fine, that's fine, that's a good redirection.
I just wasn't sure where we were where it was going.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, No, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
And I guess because I've had a lot in my
brain and like I said, I haven't slept much. I've
woken up thinking about it. I've gone to sleep thinking
about it. So I've I've I guess, I've got all
this in my head and it's it's for me. I
(14:25):
guess it's a bit of hope that that that I
have actually got the insight and the recognition now and
that that will enable us to do something, whether even
if it's something small going forward. That's I guess, you know,
(14:46):
and I understand where Sam's coming from. But I and
I'm I guess I.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Don't like how you say but after I understand where
Sam's coming from. But is it really hard word for
me to hear? Because then again, it's what we talked about,
how you're you're.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Excusing like no, no, I think that was when I
say but, wrong word, and I apologize for the wrong word,
but it's understand there's a butt again. Sorry, it's I
guess trying.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
To what if we put an end?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You know, So I understand where Sam's coming from, and
I really hope that over time she can.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Trust in me, because I guess that's sort of the
really the word I was looking for. And thank you
for that suggestion, because I don't always use the right words.
But and and it makes it difficult for Sam to
understand where I'm coming from, and it makes it difficult
(15:50):
for Sam to trust me. And that is something that
I understand and I would like to change. I think
that's the word that's probably and that is a better word.
(16:10):
Thank you Sarah for that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
That's okay, And it might not work every time, but
there I go, I say but too, but I do
try to swap to end if I'm trying not to
negate the thing I said before.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, if.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
You're if you're ready, and Sam is ready, and yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Are you ready Sam? To start with the homework. I
need to go back to my childhood and my childhood
yeah yeah, I know sixty and I'm not gonna it's
just a small snippet of my childhood, like a really
(16:49):
small snippet. So when I was very young. My parents
separated when I was ten, but prior to that, in
my head and I really been trying to search why.
But in my head, I really believed that my brother
was more important than me in my father's eyes. And
(17:11):
that's something I have never really addressed. But I don't
know where it comes from. I do have this memory
of when I was and I must have been three, five,
six seven, and little Nan was leaving with us at
that stage, and I remember my father coming home from
(17:31):
work and there was a jow of lollies up on
the top of the fridge, and my brother and I
were in the kitchen and he got the lollies down
and he goes, oh, mate, would you like a lolly?
And popped it back on the fridge. Now for a
five or six year old, and my little nan got
up and said, would you like one, sweetheart? You know,
blah blah blah blah. But for me, that's then been
(17:55):
a catalyst somewhere along the line for feeling inadequate. And
then at primary school I was bullied something shocking, really
really badly, to the point where I would quite often
not go to school. My mother never knew I wouldn't
go to school, but I was really badly bullied. So
I learnt very early to feel inadequate and feel like
(18:20):
I needed to justify myself and feel like I needed
to say, you know, hang on, I'm here. And that
was not the right way to look at it, but
that's where I truly believe that has come from. So
when it came to having children, in my head, and
this is a really hard thing to say, I believed
(18:40):
that I was having children that would love me, that
would actually really just I wouldn't have to do much.
I would have these children and they would be And
but bear in mind, I have never ever not wanted
any of you like you always all of you have
been important to me. But from that then, the learning
(19:06):
that I had, I was never able then to follow through.
It was there, you were there, that was great, but
I was never able to then give you what you
needed because of it, And that should have been something
though I addressed a long long time ago, and I
didn't address it. But what you said to me last week, Sam,
(19:27):
in regards to the way I made you feel and
what you missed out on, like I've heard it from you,
and I've heard it from your next sister down stopped
playing the victim. And I didn't really understand what stopped
playing the victim meant because in my head, I'd had
(19:49):
a hard time and YadA YadA, YadA and blah blah blah.
But I never really understood what that meant. And that's
what I mean by the learning curve, because now I
understand that it was my lack of being able to
give you what you wanted that has been and and
it's not that I didn't want to, and it's not
(20:10):
that I didn't love you or don't love you, and
it's not that I don't want to be have every
but I just expected it. I expected it to come
my way because I was your mother. And that is
the wrong attitude. You can see, I've had Sarah, I've
had lots of lots of thinking, and all I can
(20:35):
say to that, Sam is that I'm mixed, sorry, extremely
sorry that I was not able to do for you
what you needed. And I hope it's not too late
for me to go, Okay, yes, that's what I did wrong.
And I've even, like I said earlier, I've checked myself
(20:55):
at work when someone's told me something and I've immediately
wanted to go into what I did this, and then
I'm thinking, hang on, and I haven't said it because
it's like, that's not what they want to hear. That's
not that, that's not what this is about. And I
guess it's the very early feeling of being not important
(21:17):
and being being bullied and being not good enough. I
think is where correct me if I'm wrong, Sarah, am
I on the does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
It makes sense to me, And of course you know
I'm hearing all this for the first time about your
childhood and your life and in such small snippets, but
what you're saying is making sense. I think the way
that you and I'd love to hear Sam's response in
a moment, but I think the way that you've come
across today is much more other focused than self focused,
(21:52):
where last week the way you were was very much yeah,
but you were yeah, and you were emotionally overwhelmed, and
so I think it was very difficult to stay with
Sam and stay with what Sam needed. Whereas today I
feel like your emotions are a bit more in check,
which is no more you know, in these situations. But
I the way you've delivered your communication is much more
(22:15):
other focused.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I know Sam that.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It is still hard to We're not saying do you believe,
do you trust it all?
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Do you whatever?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But do you hear the communication is more focused on
you and your experience than it was last week.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Yeah, Yeah, like I think, and I think I wouldn't
expect anything other than in a therapy session to eventually
be able to, you know, change some behaviors. Yeah, it's
in air. The answer is yes to that.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Because I guess there'll be different things that trigger you,
you know that Marie says or does, and if we
can start lessening those things, and if one of those
things is communicating with you in a way that feels
like it's all about her, you know, that is one
of the barriers to you know, not the only barrier
but one of the marries to having the relationship with her, and.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I understand that. I understand that, and like I said that,
the insight to that has been quite confronting this week
because it's almost like not beating myself up. But it's that,
I guess it's I wish I had been able to
do it differently, and I didn't do it differently, And yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
But you had five chances to do it differently.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And I made a mistake on all of it, and
I think it was because of my inability, my inability
to provide that nurturing that you all need it.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
That's the key.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
Yeah, absolutely, when we come back from this short break,
we're going to hear how Sam is processing what Marie
is shared and the big feelings it stirs up for
them both don't go away.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
It's not like I haven't spent so much money in
therapy and many many years trying to come to the
conclusion that you couldn't It's not that you didn't love us.
It's that you couldn't love us because of the way
of your of your inability to be the person that
(24:38):
you needed to be for us. So it's not this
is not a new thing for me. I have come
to that conclusion and I discussed this with my brothers
and sisters as well about that that it's not that
you didn't love us, it's that you couldn't and it's
nothing to do with us as as children.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
No, No, it's not.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
What I guess where it gets difficult for me is
that there was five so like you had ample opportunity,
I guess to try and make it. And for me,
I really struggle understanding the perspective of if there's something
going wrong in your life that is not working for you,
especially when you are a well off woman in Australia
(25:22):
that has resources and you know it's not we've got
It's not like we didn't have money. We had money
and not a lot, but we had money. You know,
you could have gone and got therapy, you could have
I just I really just struggled to when things are
not working in your life to not fix it. If
(25:46):
that makes sense, So then why why has it taken
I guess I mean it's not why, but it just
it's I don't need to ask that question. It's more
about I find it difficult to understand why it's taken
this long. Yeah, and I think it get to that point.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Because yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think it's
the lack of insight. I think that's that's thinking that
perhaps I was doing a good job and blaming I
did do a good job, and blaming everything on everybody
else except myself.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
What it felt like sometimes that you were still responsibility
and accountability for your actions. And that's what we mean
by the victim, by playing the victim.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Absolutely, but it wasn't intentional, that's the thing. It wasn't
me going, oh, I'm just going to ignore what Sam
says and I'm just going to do what I want
to do because blah blah, I actually really thought that one. Okay,
I wasn't perfect, but I didn't do that bad a job,
all right. So that's what was in my head.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
I'm not saying, Yeah, I do forget about the mental
health like I mean, it is. It is. I do
get frustrated at sometimes at my husband when he's like,
it does that whole thing of like, wait, way anxious,
don't be anxious. Yeah, I'm like, I can't switch it off.
Just so I get that. I get that there is
that element of mental health, you know, and I never
blame for their own mental health issues. I get it
(27:09):
that there was probably you know, anxiety or a bit
of postpartum you know, at least not with me, but
with the other there was a couple that was evident
to me, postpartum depression. And then obviously you're still growing
as a person when you're in your twenties and you
had how many kids by the time you were twenty
thirty three three? I get that. I get that, and
(27:31):
I understand that, and I never meant to blame anyone
for their mental health issues, never, But I just think
that it could have. Like I had horrendous postpartum anxiety
and depression to the point where I couldn't do it,
you know, I didn't want to do that with my child,
(27:51):
So I went and I went back to therapy and
I started on some antidepressants. So like, I just think
that there are things if it's not working, that's why
I kind of get stuck with I guess that makes.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Sense, And I totally agree with you. And I'm on
antidepressants myself and have been for a while, and that's
certainly been helping. But it was the lack of my lack,
not yours, and not your brother and sisters. My lack
of understanding in an insight into my behavior, it was
(28:24):
it was looking at at it from a perspective, well,
this shouldn't be like they should love me, Like why
don't they love? Do you know what I mean? Rather
than actually going okay, yes, I stuffed up. Yes, I
need to own it. I need to actually sit down
with each of you and own the situation. And it
(28:49):
was never ever meant to be. I was never ever
meant to do this and to get it to this point,
you know, and you know this this ability to go
or this this non ability to actually have conversations because
I might say the wrong thing, Well, that's just ridiculous that,
you know. The more I thought about that during the work, God,
(29:09):
this is ridiculous. This is not what you need to hear.
You need to be able to have the conversations with me.
And this is what I mean by this insight, this healing,
that I'm not going to be perfect. I'm not going
to get it right, Sam, I'm not every time. But
I see, I really do see now, and I've said
that before. I know, but I don't know. The only
(29:34):
way I can prove it to you is to ask
you to take a leap of faith and just give
me a small snippet and I'll I'll work on it
and I'll show you that that's the only thing I
can do. But I'm I'm worried about that because I
don't want it to affect you. But I need you
(29:56):
in my life because you know you are my child
and I do love you and I do want you
in my life. But I understand too that if it's
too hard.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
There's no need.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
It is a need. It's a need, and I want
again the wrong word.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
But that's that's all I can That's fine. I can
understand that. I can. I listen when you said, you're
talking about your childhood and and all your insecurities and
your feelings have in adequacy and all those things. So
I understand. I I listened to that, and I've heard
(30:33):
that I have. I would have to think about that
feeling that I'm that I have around that It's not
something that I can is automatically going to change my
mind right now. You know, I'm very good at keeping busy,
(30:55):
so like compartmentalizing, yeah, yeah, and then when I do
sit down and deal with it, maybe trying to understand
it from someone else's perspective, which would be my mother's
obs would be helpful, I guess, and something that I'm
willing to do.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, I don't think there's anything that Marie could have
said that was going to make you go, oh, well
that's okay. Then like that that wasn't It wasn't the
point of the exercise really, you know, a bit more
just you know, you were asking why and and I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I think there's also sometimes there's just things that we
can't relate to in another.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
I think that's what I struggled with, is the relating
to that with all the resources we had. Yeah, I
struggled with that relation.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, and I think that that's a really common struggle
for a lot of people, you know, in this generation.
I think, you know, baby boomers can be and I,
oh god, I don't want to be, you know, crucified
over this one. But people from the baby boomer generation
and before have been much less inclined to go to therapy,
have been much less open to getting support, talking about things, all.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Of that type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
And it's not an excuse, but what I'm saying is
that it's created this generational.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Thing where there are a lot of people, Yeah, where
there's a.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Lot of people who are like, you know, if only
my parents had gotten the support, and why didn't they?
Speaker 3 (32:25):
And I think there's a lot of that yeah happening.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
And it's not even about support for me. It's about
just changing your actions, like you know, if something isn't working,
don't keep doing it. I have been to which is
which is stupid. I get that. I get that, and
that's sorry that that's my That's just what I go
to because that's who I am as a person, and
(32:51):
sometimes I'm not. I'm quite ecocentric in that in that way. Sorry,
I don't I understand that people haven't you know, all
these problems addiction and things like that. And again I
don't want to sound insensitive, and I get it.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
But I've been to counseling, but I've never really Again
it's the counseling has always been about me, because that's
the way. So you can only have counseling and sort
out something when you actually have the insight and the understanding.
And I've been there, Oh woe is me. My kids
(33:26):
do not talk to me, you know, And it's it's
been dealing with that side rather than actually, and I've
never come across a counselor yet that has said to me, Okay,
let's let's go back, let's talk about this, let's talk
about that. And because of that, I haven't.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Really find yourself a better one then I don't. Yes,
but that's all I did in my therapy. When did
this begin, Well that was that time I was three
years old, And yeah, I totally agree with you.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
But I haven't had the realization you can't talk about
something that you don't realize. And so this this homework
has been, like I said, quite confronting because it's made
me really think about it, and I really wanted to
think about it because I wanted to give you Sam
(34:20):
the best answer. No, not best, that's the wrong way,
the most honest answer. So that has actually created quite
a lot of emotions and a lot of things that
I didn't like about myself that I've had that I
now have to confront because I don't like it about
(34:41):
myself because I've allowed it to be like that for
and yeah, it's it's not and that is not an excuse.
It's just me recognizing I think what I needed what
And now it has given me direction on what I
need to do. And like I said, I won't be perfect.
I won't. I'm going to stuff it up, I'm sure
(35:03):
along the way.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
But I guess it can be a good reference point.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Sometimes we built some type of understanding about something, even
if you go back to our default, whether it be
through your own recognition of it or Sam prompting you,
it can be a reference point of like, hey, you're
doing that thing again.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Now you know what that thing is.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Absolutely, oh, I get it. So prompting can be a
good reference point back to that.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Absolutely, I agree, absolutely, because it's never intentional. That's the thing.
It's never meant to be. It's created the situation and
from that that needs to be changed because the situation
that wherein has been my creation. But I really now
(35:51):
need to find a way not to do that. And
I think, just like what Sarah said, Sam, put your
hand up, seriously, you're doing it again because it's never
been intentional, honestly, well nothing.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I know that. I know that, And like I get
quite regimented in this relationship and my emotions with this relationship. Yeah,
and I sometimes I'm not fair to you, and I
don't know why. Sarah you might be able to enlighten
me or why I'm not. But I mean, I work
(36:27):
in health care, and I work in I work in
physical health care, and I work and mental health as well,
and I'm so forgiving and I'm so understanding of people
when they come in, you know, and they've got their issues,
and I do everything I can, I guess too, understand
(36:48):
and help. But then when I am in this relationship
and she says all that stuff, it's really hard for
me to feel sorry for her. And there is a
barrier to understanding that because of the fact that I've
let no. But but traditionally you should. If I was,
(37:13):
you know, a good person, you would understand your family
more than you would a person on the outside.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
But your family can hurt you so much more than
a person on the outside. A person on the outside
could never hurt you like your mom could, even with
good intention, you know. So I think I don't think
you lack empathy, even.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Towards your mother. I think actually fear.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
And pain and anger overrides the empathy because if I
allow myself to be empathetic, I might get hurt again.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah, I don't think you don't have it.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I think it's been blocked like it's other things that
are in front of it.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
I just, I just I'm not I'm not as understanding
as I would as I could be when when I'm
you know, in the community doing my job and I
love my job, like I love talking to people and
I love yeah, I love all that stuff and I
don't know why. So I guess that's another reflection point
for me. But anyway, sorry off track, I was just
(38:13):
thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
No, but I think it is.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, I think it is a good point because we
also sort of ended on that a little bit last
week around you know, where do I like, if you
know you're here for a reason, I'm open to the process.
That's not giving any promises about where it's going to go,
but I'm open to hearing and participating and engaging. And
(38:37):
where do I find myself getting in the way of that,
And it will be some of those emotions that are
still unprocessed in certain areas or you know, it's normal
to have an emotional reaction which then blocks us from
feeling empathy towards a loved one in any circumstance. You know,
the minute we feel threatened or angry or hurt, we
(38:59):
struggle to feel empathy with anyone.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
So don't they say that anger Empathy is the opposite
emotion to anger, So then when you have anger, you
should try and feel empathetic towards someone and then, yes, exactly,
which is really hard to do.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yes, yeah, and it might feel unfair, and particularly in
some circumstances where we've had children that are parentified, which
essentially sounded like where you took on a bit of
a parentified role. Often that is quite a draining role
for a young person and you know, not an appropriate
role for them to be in, but when they do
step into that, it can feel very hard to feel
(39:37):
empathetic when you've had to do the job of a parent.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yeah, and that when you talk about that, that is
what upsets me the most, I think, and I think
that's what I get. Yeah, my siblings and happening to
take that role on and then never still never being
enough and just yeah, that's where that put.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
This way, never being enough to your siblings or to your.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Just enough to anyone. Then that's a lot of the
stuff that I dealt with in my twenties of never started,
would never be enough for my mother, never being enough
for my siblings, never being smart enough at school, never
being skinny enough, never never been good enough to my friends,
and then when boyfriends came along dating the wrong men,
(40:29):
because you know, it just it was just a lot
of that which I dealt with. But it's still is
probably one of my barriers. It's just never feeling enough.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, there were very big shoes to feel, and shoes
that you could never possibly feel. How do you feel
the shoes that a parent is supposed to be? It's
an unwinnable game. Yeah, what's it like for you, Marie?
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Just listening there?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
And hmmm, I think probably for me it instills guilt
and because it was very unfair for this to happen
(41:23):
to Sam. It was, it was very unfair and it
should never have happened, and it shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
But it did happen, absolutely, and now we're dealing with
the ramifications of it.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yeah, and I'm hearing that, and and it's I'm just
very really extremely sorry I wasn't able to be there
for you. I wish I was, but I actually I wasn't.
And again thought I was doing a good job and
obviously really wasn't. And that I I feel you.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
That's all right. I thought you were doing a good
job too, until I was like eighteen and I realized,
I'm like, quie am I sou? Why am I like this?
That's right?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I thought I was doing a good job. But and
the truth of the matter is that I created the
situation that upset you and made it difficult for you
and has affected your life, and that that's not fair.
And I do all I can do is I mean,
this isn't even an apology big enough to give you
(42:33):
for that.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
But I think that what I will say.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
What I will say is that from looking from what
I see, you are good enough, and you are strong enough,
and you've turned into this, this amazing woman who's been
able to rise through the adversity and actually do what
(43:01):
you're doing now, and that even though there's been men
more input from me, especially over the last fifteen years,
you've still managed to do that. And I'm extremely proud
of you. And I'm extremely I'm extremely proud.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
And you see how uncomfortable this makes me. No, I'm listening, Sorry,
it just it's very hard for me to listen because.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
It does what does it bring up?
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Oh? I just don't ah, it just.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
It's like.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Something that I have I have is when people give
me compliments. And in my day to day life, I'm
very good at going Oh that makes me uncomfortable, but hey,
thank you so much. Yes, actually you know what I did,
do a good job or And I'm to that point
now in my career where I can't talk about the
good things that I'm doing. Very proud and you know,
(44:07):
like said, but when it comes from the person that
it should have come from when you were a child,
rather than being told hey, I actually don't I don't
know all I do. All I do remember being praised
for is not for being kind, not for being caring,
(44:29):
not for being organized, not for being not for beings
good at were you know, not for trying hard. I
didn't get praised for any of that. I got praised.
Oh you're so skinny. You should be a model when
you grow up. That's what I remember you saying. And
that's the only thing I can think in my head
when when you praise, when you said I was good,
And that's why it took me such a long time.
(44:52):
I was very, very skinny, like I was just like
very athletic, did a lot of sport, did a lot
of you know, dancing and things like that. That's all
that comes to my head, not and it's taken me
twenty five years. I don't know, however, long since I
was twenty seve in therapy. Forty years of realizing that
(45:13):
I'm more than that, and that I am kind and
that I'm caring and so that when it comes from
the person that should come from it should have come from,
it makes me uncomfortable. And I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Well, I think the relationship doesn't hasn't built the trust
and the safety there yet for you to be able
to receive it.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
So, you know, yeah, and yeah, I think.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Like a stranger. It's like a stranger coming up to
you and saying.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
It right, Yeah, there's not that exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
There's not that sort of trust and safety and value
around what I mean to this person. And you know,
I think that that makes sense that it would make
you feel a bit uncomfortable for now. And I think
even just having that as an awareness, So it's not
to say Marie, never compliment her again, it's not about that,
but just even understanding you know, Okay, I know that, yes,
(46:00):
I still if I you know, feel I want to
tell her something that I really appreciate or love about her.
I will, but I will maybe not say too many
or not or check in with how she's feeling or
read the body language, and if I can see she's
sort of shrinking away, then I'll, you know, leave it.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
At that and change the topic to kind of just yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
And I guess I will if I get the opportunity
down the track. But I guess this was in response
to the situation right now. So if I did make
you feel uncomfortable, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that, but.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
It sounds like it's how you felt and it felt
important to say it.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
It did, Yes, yes it did, because it's always been there.
It's just never come from here out to where it
needed to be. It's always been in here. And I
think that yes, they have never felt loved, Yes they've
never and that there is no there's no. I can't
(47:05):
make light of that at all. So if that's luck,
I was making a lot of it. That's not what
I was coming from.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
But and.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I no, I didn't always say or didn't say what
was in here, But I will use about this. But
it's always been there.
Speaker 4 (47:25):
M yeah, And I mean it's not completely delicious. It's
not like, you know, we're not. Plenty of people without
love from their mothers go on to be very successful,
and I would count myself as that. So it's not
like it's ruined me for life. It's just been hard.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
After this break, we'll hear from Sam about how she
went with her homework, thinking of the ways that Marie
might be able to spend more time with her granddaughter
back in a tick. I'm wondering on your in Sam, whether, yeah,
(48:14):
if we just touch a bit on the homework for you,
whether you've had a bit of clarity around what you're
open to what that would look like.
Speaker 4 (48:25):
So mine is highlighted and indock points so we can,
of course as the studios the student that I am.
So yeah, it's sorry, it's quite long, so I won't
go into it too much. But basically, I just wrote
down how I'd be open to a relationship with my mother.
(48:46):
Number one would begin virtual contact, obviously, so this is
this is RC sorry for my daughter as well, because
we talked about that being the main relationship before I'm
able to do anything. From our perspective, I guess.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
So when you say virtual, does that mean just your daughter,
or will you be a part of that or no,
I'll be there.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
Yeah, I'll be there. She's only two and a half,
so she can't really figure out how to yeah, basically,
and then she doesn't really sit there anymore. Through video calls.
She likes to run around the house and then I'm
often chasing her anyway, So.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
You'll be a part of that.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
I'll be a part of it. We can discuss things. Yeah,
So it would be virtual contact and obviously because of
the distance constraint, it has to start with that anyway. Sure, Yeah,
phone calls, messages, let us maybe some small gifts for her,
and then we can discuss that together in the virtual
contact and light conversations. You know, she's really into ballet
(49:45):
at the moment, so we can you know, discuss that.
And basically it would have to be building familiarity so
we know that it's safe before in person visits I
think was the main thing, and then moving on to
maybe special occasions or holidays visiting and that would be
(50:08):
fine too. I know we talked about boundaries as well,
so it has to be organized if the visits occur.
You can't just come out of the blue, which you've
done before and say hey, I'm on the Gold Coast.
Do your mind? Do you want to catch up the
(50:30):
day before? That for me doesn't work, especially one because
of my busy life, but two, I often will need
time to prepare mentally for that visit.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
The nervous system. The nervous system needs to prepare. Yeah, right,
for both of you.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Actually, I think for both of you, the nervous system
just needs to prepare and be in a calm and
steady place before meeting up.
Speaker 4 (50:54):
Yeah. And I think if we just focus I'm quite
because of my uncomfortableness of the relationship between you and me,
I think it has.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
To be.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
Have a my daughter, there is a really good buffer.
It's a good it's a good like. If it's focused
on her rather than us to start with, I think
that's a good stepping stone.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
I think from that we might be able to then
build a bridge.
Speaker 4 (51:22):
Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, I think showing interest in her is
a good start because I know I'm not going to
get the childhood that I deserved back, but at least
I've got something to focus on with her. So having yeah,
and she has she does have quite a few I'm
(51:45):
very We're very lucky Sarah in that we've still got
quite a few grandparents still alive, even great grandparents.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (51:54):
So yeah, actually speaking of her, that Nan is visiting me,
my Nan so her great mom's mum and hobbies. Great
grandma is visiting on the Gold Coast at the moment.
Oh wow yeah, yeah, sorry, Yeah, we still go to
fu So's. She's not she's not like it wouldn't put
(52:14):
her out having another grandparent around.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Well, no, the more the merry, a right, But yeah,
and I wonder whether you, like, would you want to
ask Marie to let you be leading in terms of
how and when things might if they do go that
way transition to also a bit of a relationship between
the two of you. So you know, you're saying I
wanted the focus to be my daughter and and we
(52:38):
can spend time together around her, and we're mainly sort
of chatting and playing and doing that with her. And
then if there's a stage where you want to offer
direct that, yeah, so you want to be in the lead.
Speaker 4 (52:50):
I probably would prefer to be in the lead with that.
I mean, I'm open to suggestions and things like I'm
not going to say if you start asking me, just
say we're talking and you start asking me about something
it's going on in my life, like I'm gonna be like, hey,
I don't want to discuss that, like be open to
you know, talking about it. It maybe from a superficial perspective.
I'm not going to be like, oh my god, I'm
(53:10):
having the worst time with this person or whatever. It's
not going to be very deep if I don't feel comfortable,
but certainly I won't I won't put it down. If
it is discussed and brought up, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Was there anything else that you were worried about or
boundaries that you felt were important to share.
Speaker 4 (53:31):
Or yeah, it was the main one with the visits
interstate not being unannounced, And I guess also not a barrier,
more of a boundary. I guess that it may take
me longer to adjust, so don't expect immediate results. I think.
Speaker 3 (53:54):
So you're saying give me time.
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Yeah, Yeah, this is you know, thirty eight years in
the making. It's not going to reverse itself overnight.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
But yeah, and I think that message can really be
reflected to both for on both ends. Right, I'm I'm
assuming Marie is also going give me time to get
it right, and you know, be changing some of the
things I need to be changing, and Sam saying, give
me time to.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Process, process, soften. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Is there anything for you, Marie there in terms of
the things that Sam just brought.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Up, No, not at all. I'm very excited for any contact.
I'd love to see my granddaughter. So from that, I'm
willing just to be directed by what Sam wants and
what I understand where she's coming from, feeling comfortable, et cetera.
(54:53):
So I'm willing just to be able to leave let her.
Speaker 4 (54:59):
I guess I don't want to leave the whole thing though.
That's a big point, Like it'll be again you doing
like like you used to do, of sending a mess
and then saying something and then not following through with it.
I guess like there have been times when she said
to me, oh, hey, I'm coming up to visit and
then oh, I've got these flights coming up, and then
(55:19):
pulled out of it the last minute, Like that kind
of stuff is where it's been and then so yeah,
problematic for me because then you know, you get prepared
and you get it all sorted and then yeah, and
then there has been times when she's just rocked up
and so it's very like haphazard in that sense. So
I think if you want, if you say, hey, I'm
going to visit, can I not Hey, I'm coming up?
(55:44):
Do you mind if I I'm coming up to the
Gold Coast, it'd be great to see you, rather than
and then actually falling through with it, rather than saying yeah, okay,
I'm here.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Kind of thing that has stemmed from yeah, absolutely, and
that makes total sense. And it's that's me demonstrating respect
to you because I have demonstrated that, and I think
demonstrated respect for your life and what you're doing. It's
been me you going yeah, it's been me focused, and
(56:22):
it shouldn't have been me focused, and I understand that that,
and so I have not use that respect, but again
respected what you needed and what your life entails. So
that I'm working, I will work on.
Speaker 4 (56:39):
And also don't just sit back and do nothing, because
then again it's not going back into old patterns.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
I think, don't be interested, being engaged, asking and but
also asking in an open way where if Sam is
like that's too soon for me or can we not
do that? But I'd be okay with this, you know.
So I guess it's putting it out there and then
working with Sam with what feels okay.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Do you know what? It'll be an actual adult conversation, which.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
Will be.
Speaker 4 (57:09):
Well, that's a change from my life at the moment,
because all I talk about is blocks and bluely.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
So having that respectful adult conversation is something that we
probably haven't had, and that is where where I want
to start with it and see where that goes. The
risk and having their respect and the care and the
understanding and demonstrating it, not just going oh, well it's
(57:37):
in here. Well, you know, it's no point being in here.
It needs to be out there. And that is where
hopefully I will be able to demonstrate that. And I
think that will then go away too. And it might
not be perfect, and it might not. It will take
a while, but you know.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
But I think trusting that if that Sam can communicate,
if it's not hitting the mark or if it's you know, something,
then Sam can communicate that. And the hope is that
then you can hear and receive it, have a think
and do it again different, you know, like that's all
it is.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Absolutely absolutely if I can move us into home work,
you know, just for the two of you to kind
of continue this process in terms of each working on
the things on your end.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
I think Sam, you brought up a really great point
about the empathy and anger and when other emotions get
in the way, and I would probably be I feel
like the homework for you could be something around like
holding both you know, how can I hold anger, pain,
resentment for you, you know whatever about what happened with
(58:48):
mum and about childhood with mum? And can I also
hold empathy? Like am I able to have that not
dismiss or invalidate those things that are real and happened
and have impacted me in these ways, And also see
if I can hold a little bit of empathy at
the same time, because that's a tough one. It's tough
(59:09):
for anybody, right, and I think particularly with the more
significant the trauma, the more difficult it is to hold
empathy at the same time. And it's not empathizing around abuse,
but it's empathizing around this situation in which it occurred,
If that makes sense, some more contextual empathy rather than yeah,
like I do with everyone else, Well that's right, yeah,
(59:29):
but that's right. Yeah, But you know this, it's different
because everybody else hasn't hurt you the same way a
parent could do. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (59:36):
Yeah, yeah, Now that's actually really interesting and also like
a good driver for me, the personal growth aspect is
a good driver for me to want to do that homework. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
It's a great skill to have and it's something that
I think, yeah, could be used in a lot of scenarios,
but I think with this one, particularly in your relationship,
it could help. And for you, Marie, I'm thinking around,
You're on a good path with this self focused versus
other focused, right, And how can I become more and
(01:00:09):
more aware in the moment and be flipping it so
when I when I'm saying things, when I'm doing things,
am I is it coming from an anxious drive, from
an emotional drive or is it actually a thoughtful response
to what the other person is saying to me?
Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
And I think that you're on a good track there. Yeah,
so I.
Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Would be continuing with doing that. And I think it's
around how can I be consistent? I feel like consistency
is going to be your best friend. Whatever you say
to Sam, be following through, if to the letter and
I I and if it's something needs to change, no problem,
communicate it, be consistent about it, Like, I think communication
(01:00:50):
and consistency will be the thing that helps rebuild that trust.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Yeah, Okay, I can do that. And not only can
I do that, I need to do that. I need
And Sam touched on personal growth. That's going to be
my personal growth and I think that will then hopefully
enable us to have some type of relationship, which would
(01:01:15):
be really good.
Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Ook, I appreciate both of you really sticking through this work.
It's not easy at all, but you've both been super
patient and tolerant with me but also each other, you know,
in sometimes hearing things that we don't want.
Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
To hear or we do, but it's tough to listen to,
you know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
And you've both been so respectful towards each other throughout
this whole process, which is really I commend you because
it can be hard when there's a lot of big feelings.
Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Yeah, and no tears this week, which is good.
Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Yeah, although you know, teas is okay, but and you know, look,
there's a lot of anxiety and pressure that goes to
that first session, particularly when there hasn't been contact for
so long.
Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
You know, it's more real contact, it's honest, real contact,
and I think that's what we needed to have a
better understanding. I certainly needed it to have a better understanding.
I won't speak for Sam, but for me, I needed
the truth. I think that the truth has you know,
(01:02:28):
even though it's been confronting, it's certainly been an important
step for me.
Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
All Right, guys, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Well, I'm feeling very hopeful, I think more so than
last session. I feel that we have had a breakthrough
and that there is perhaps a chance of some reconciliation,
which has always been my goal. I don't think she
(01:03:12):
expected to hear what I had to say, and I
think she needs to process that, and that is very understandable.
I think she.
Speaker 4 (01:03:25):
Is very.
Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Nervous to trust me. She wants to. I think she
wants to, but she just in from what's happened. She
just can't right now, and I think hopefully that will
change as we go forward. To be allowed to be
in her daughter's life is a big step. So I
(01:03:49):
think she wouldn't be here if she didn't want to
have something. So that. Yeah, That's where I'm at with
that now.
Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
How am I feeling after the second session that we
just had is pretty positive. Yeah, Like I think it
went pretty well. I think that my mother and I
are at a good place to take this forward. So
I would have to say positive, surprisingly positive, because I
didn't actually think that I was going to get much
(01:04:35):
out of it. I thought that I would probably walk
away not wanting to have a relationship. But at least
I'm open to it now, so positive is the right word.
I am not sure how Marie would be feeling right now.
I would hope that she is feeling the same as
(01:04:56):
me positive about our last session. If I had to
take a guess, I think she's feeling pretty good. I
think she did well with her homework, so she should
probably give herself a pat on the back for that.
At least. What do I think is next for the
two of us? I would have to say I definitely
(01:05:21):
think more therapy is only going to be beneficial. I
think I would like to hope that we could have
some more sessions. I think, but in terms of away
from therapy, I would hope that we might be able
(01:05:42):
to start even just a not actual phone calls, but
more text messages or like sharing of I'm happy to
share some photos or some videos of my daughter and
just see where it goes. From there.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
I'm really pleased with the progress that it's been made
across these two sessions. Sam and Marie have been working
so hard in what I can only imagine has been
a very draining, scary, yeah experience for them, where I
wonder whether this would have been possible even a few
(01:06:25):
years ago or one year ago. You know, I really
believe that things have to happen when people are ready
for it, and I think this is something that we
can see in Marie's progress, particularly where potentially she's been
told these things before, or things have been said to
her and she's thought that she understood and thought she
took it in, but really it hadn't been landing. And
(01:06:48):
I think there was a real breakthrough there for her
last week and that I was just so happy to
see that she really took it on and reflected around
how her communication style has been getting in the way
of Sam feeling heard and actually validated in her experience,
which I think was a big block to them actually
(01:07:10):
progressing with any type of relationship.
Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
So I couldn't be happier with that progress.
Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
And in terms of Sam, I think she has really
been thoughtful and open to what type of way she
can allow Marie to come back into her life and
prove and show that she is there to be consistent,
find a way to feel like a family again, and
(01:07:36):
be able to repair some of that rupture that's been
there for so many years now. So although we can
see Sam's hesitancy and you know, the protective mechanisms there,
I think she is really allowing it to move forward,
which is fantastic to see. This Is Why We Fight
(01:08:01):
was created by Nama Brown and Eliza Sommon Nilsen. The
executive producer is Naim Abro. Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.
Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound
design by Jacob Brown. Additional production support from Leah Porgus
and Coco Levine. Our casting producer.
Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
Was Lisa Storer.
Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings or
if you just feel like you need a bit of help,
there are links in our show notes to resources available
to you right now, as well as how to connect
with my practice Motivated Minds. If you'd like to apply
to be on the next season of This Is Why
We Fight, there's a link for the application in our
show notes too. You can Listen to part one of
(01:08:45):
my session with Sam and Marie. Wherever you listen to
your podcast right now and I'm your host, Sarah Bays.
Thanks for listening.
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