June 15, 2025 • 45 mins
Have you ever thought about hiring a trained companion for your next birth?
Alice Worthy is a Modern Doula, and she is paid to hold a woman's hand as she brings new life into the world.
We chat about the differences between a doula and a midwife, how partners can support mum during the throes of birth and Alice's most memorable birth story that ended in a newly renovated bathroom.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ash. I'm gonna pick on the spot here far away,
big go. Okay, do you know? All right? Give me
your answer. What does a dueler do?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It fills my tummy because it sounds like a delicious
Indian feet.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I think that's dull You got me, You got me.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
At first I thought it was what's that Dwali? It's
an Indian festival of food and culture and color and music.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That sounds lovely. It's not. It's not what a dueler does.
But don't worry, because we have Alice Worthy here today.
She is the modern duela who supports women through one
of the most intense moments of their lives. Yes, I'm
talking about childbirth.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yes, we get into what a duela actually does, how
they differ from midwives, and how partners don't have to
just stand there awkwardly in.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The labor room or birthing Sweet.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Plus, Alice shares her most unforgettable birth story. Let's just
say the parents christen their newly renovated bathroom.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum
slash dueler. I am Mattie, j.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I'm Ash, and I'm Alice the modern Dueller.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is
the good, it is the bad and the relatable and Alice,
we have to say for legal reasons, not really legal reasons,
but kind of legal reasons, not real.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Not real, fake legal.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, we don't give advice, Ash and I never had
that a will. We do sometimes, but if it does
come out as advice, it's accidental. But you are more
than welcome to give advice.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
There's a loophole in that legalities are allowed.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
To I'm allowed to guess are immune from those legal ramifications.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You can break the law here and you're fine.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I'll talk to my lawyer.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
We do like to start with our guess a little
journey back in time to when they were a youngster
and Ash, do you think Alice was someone who was
well behaved or was she someone who was quite naughty?
She's from Central Coast.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yes, I'm going to say class clown ish.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
You picked that up already.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Yeah, I was like a drama kid. Yeah, I was
a drama kid.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
And mom and dad always said like, it doesn't matter
about your grades, you just try your hardest.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
So I was like, okay, I'll be dramatic.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
When did you get your first taste of drama?
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Oh would have been as soon as I kind of
started school, maybe year four.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I was like a Shakespeare kind of kid. O hard
to believe, I know.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Can you remember any of it?
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (02:44):
Nothing, nothing, but I think I did play like Desdemona
in something we went to the Shakespeare like I can't
even remember now, like Desdemona and.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Is there a fellow?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Just full disclosure, I don't know what any of these were.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I just want you to know.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
You said that this was like a previous life, so
I was like, I can't remember now, still left my body.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Did you ever get in trouble?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Probably when I was in primary school This would have
been like year two maybe, and mom and dad sent
me to after school care. They owned a cafe at
the time and so they would work on long hours
and I used to have to go to after school care,
which I hated. So I took it upon myself to
just get the bus home because I knew where the
bus went, and like it was a school bar. It
(03:27):
was a school bus, so probably younger. Yeah, I was
young for my year too, so I just was like,
fuck this, I'm not going after school care, got on
the bus took me all the way because we lived
at Copacabanna, which was like the furthest suburb away.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
So I was like last kid on the bus.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
With my friend Maya. I don't even know where she
is now, but she helped me. I got off, I
went to Maya's house. Her mom was like, hey, like,
you didn't know you were coming over today, because you know,
it would be weird if your kid turned up with
like a kid from school, And I was like, yeah, no,
my mom said at school, So I lied. Maya's mom
(04:01):
called my mom because after school care was freaking out.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
We're missing one those poor teenagers who are running after
school care eighteen year old.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
But I think secretly, deep down, mom and dad were
like she's independent, Like she's great.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I like to believe that. Now I'm not sure if
it's true. I should ask them.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
But what was the punishment? Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I don't remember.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Like my dad was always like, a you were grounded
for a month, And then the next day I'd be like,
can I go to my friend's house?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And he's like, get out of here.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
As much easier for you to not be at home.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, grounding your kids is more punishment to the parents and.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Them away boarding school for you.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Thank you. Look at you now such an independent woman.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Yeah, I can get the bus. Yeah, I mean doing
this forever. So yeah, I got in trouble for that.
But otherwise, like my parents were pretty I had older brothers,
so they did a lot of breaking in for me. So, yeah,
are you the youngest I am of how many of three?
My brothers are ten and eight years older than me,
So they're in their forties.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
They're really old.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Wow. Yeah, I'm pretty much there. Actually, I'm hanging on
to thirty seven for as long as I can.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, Like my grandmother's been twenty nine for like fifty
five years.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You could do that too.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
It's all about how you feel.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes, how do you feel so good? You look great.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
You haven't always been a dueler? No, you used to
work in media, yes, so Ash and I were wondering,
how does someone who works in media all of a
sudden become a dueler?
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Yeah, a bit of a wild career change, just a
but I've actually been doing both for a long time,
so I kind of was running the double life a bit,
like you know, Hannah Montana. I had been in media,
working in radio, and then when I felt pregnant and
I went through my own first birth experience that obviously
changed everything, as it does for so many people, and
(05:55):
I was like, wow.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Before pregnancy, no idea, what a doula was. I didn't
even know what a cervix was, So like, was so.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
With your first what was your birth plan? How did
that unfold? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Well, the birth plan was like, have an amazing, beautiful
hypno birthing in the water, no payment, amazing, Yeah, that
was that was the plan.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
The plan, Okay, and how did that go?
Speaker 5 (06:23):
NEPI dural and just you know, push this baby out
after like fifty two hours, so you.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Know, like fifty two hours.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before birth, I was like Paula
Abdullah Jeweler, like what's a duela?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Had no idea and people would kind of mentioned it,
and I thought like why would I ever need one
of those?
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Like, I'm gonna be fine, my buddy's meant to do this.
I was like, people birth all the time, people.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Birth every day, Like I got this, and then like
first contraction, I was like I don't have this, you know.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
So that was a bit of a rude shock.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
But I kind of came out of that and I
was like, I get now why people need more support
or should you know, we should have more support if
they want it. So I was a bit bored on
maternity leaf. I was like, what am I going to
do with my life now? Like I'm a mom, what
am I doing? So I thought I'll just do this
duel of course, because it sounds cool. And I did
the course and I was like, this is amazing.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
But I also don't feel like I fit the dueler vibe,
you know, because there's a bit of a stereotype that
duelers are really hippie and spiritual and you know, sage
sticking and you know, burning centers in the woodsage. Yeah,
clearing the space of like things.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
You know, it's great if you're into it, but I
just was there was never me. So I kind of
thought like, maybe this is not Is.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
There smoke involved?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can't have smoke around someone
who's giving birth. Is that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
It's not like a bonfire, it's just a sage stick
you will.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yes, okay, like burning incense.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Kind of candle coup of candles for the aura, thank you? Yes.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Always thought, you know, maybe I don't really fit that.
But then I thought I.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Went into pregnancy and birth and I would have loved
some support that wasn't super spiritual and about all that.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
So I thought I was just going to give this
a go.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
But I didn't want to jump into running my own
business without the security of an income, so I went
back to work full time in radio.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
As well with the course. Yes, how long is that course?
Speaker 5 (08:19):
The course I did was I think it was like
seven days total over a couple of months, like a
couple of weekends. But you don't need a course to
be a dueler. It's not a regulated industry, so you
don't have to do a course. But I thought I
just wanted to to like expand my skills and set
and education. And I went back to radio and I
was working radio, and I said to them like, hey,
I'm also a dueler now, like I'm coming back as
(08:41):
a mum, but I also have my side business here.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
And they were like that's.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
Cool, like so supportive and so willing to work with me.
So there were a couple of times I'd be at
work and I'd look at my phone and be.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Like, shit, got to go, and they're like have fun,
good luck.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
How do you find your first client?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
So we had to do three student birth experiences. So
I got them through word of mouth. A physio referred me,
another duela referred me for someone. So yeah, and it's
like having your l plates on.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
You're like you're just like in the room going through
the whole process with a duela that's been experienced or
good wife.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
Or or a I don't know, No, you're doing it
on your own, like, so it was more that you
supported these families through. We kept a diary, we checked
in with like our educator and stuff, but it was
pretty much off your own devices.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
But yeah, they were great and I did those and
then I was certified and away we went.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
How was the first birth?
Speaker 5 (09:37):
The first birth was actually amazing. It was a first
time mum. She was incredible, a water birth in the hospital,
zero intervention. So as a dueler who's done this course, thinking.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Like, this is how birth exactly should be. This is textbook.
Seeing my first birth that wasn't my own like that,
I was like, it's real, Like it really is a thing.
I was on an oxytocin high four day.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
Yeah, and a couple of my other colleagues in the
course had had births that were so like they were
like I saw everything. I saw the cascade of intervention,
you know, I saw the cascades, so like you intervene
somewhere along the way in it kind of cascades and
it can just like a snowball effect, everything kind of
ends up happening. And they had seen that, and I'd
seen this beautiful water birth. You know, my time would
(10:20):
come for seeing those things too. But yeah, that was
my first experience as.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
A daller, literally straight into the deep end.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And you said that they're like, you do three experiences
it I did.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yes, what do they call them against student birth?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Student birth? Okay?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And the person who you're supporting obviously know you're student birth,
so she's a first mum and this is your first time. Yeah,
I can imagine the maybe the anxiety in the air
or was it your job to bring that back down?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Bring it back down? Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (10:48):
And the thing about supporting someone through birth, and I
was guilty of this thinking that you have to have
all the answers and you have to know all the
evidence and have all the information, and really it's not
about that all, you know, It's about making sure that
that woman and her partner feel in control and feel
like they're driving that shit and you're just kind of
there to support and guide along the way.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
So she was amazing. She had an incredible mindset.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
She was an athlete as well, so she like had
a good performance mindset. So as a dueler, I was like,
this is this is dream client goals.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
You know, after you do those three student bursts, are
you like going hard and trying to recruit your next client?
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Yeah, yeah, it's I actually felt pregnant, so in that
student kind of I was doing my student burst, I
feltregnant again, and I was like, and unplanned pregnancy. But
I feel like an idiot saying that when you're an adult,
because you're like, I know how pregnancy works, I know
how it happens, so like you know, whoop.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
See We're like, I can't believe it.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
That happened always.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
So that was a bit of a shock because I
was my girls are eighteen months apart, so I had
two under two, and I was like, I had a
bit of a break, but I was you're active on
social media, which was good because you're always working nine
months ahead like my clients that I'm signing at the moment.
Are due in January February, you know, so you're.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Always working a long way.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
So I kind of was planning to be back doing
burst around four months postpartum, so I could kind of plan.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
That head to get the next client.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That's pretty quick. Yeah, especially with two under two. I
know you're telling congratulations.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
And so someone right now maybe they they haven't had
a child just yet, they're thinking about they're planning that
to get pregnant.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
When is the right time to engage with a.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
Dueler, I would say, like most duelers will offer obligation
free connect calls and catch ups and stuff. So if
you really want to take your time finding the one
that's right for you, which I do recommend, like meet
with a few, you could even do it before you're pregnant,
just so that you've put the feelers out in the
connects to be like, hey, I'm thinking about this, and
(12:54):
maybe some guidance or some support in your trying to
conceive journey. So it's never too early. But I would
say most people will reach out at the moment. It's
like people are peeing on a stick and sending me
a photo of their double lines. You know, that's kind
of where we're at now. And I'm like, whoa, Okay,
this is great, amazing, And then some people don't find
me till like thirty weeks and they're like.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Shit's changed.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
My plan is, I don't know what's happening, Like I
need support, and you know, usually I can kind of.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Make them fit.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And so we are now currently twenty one weeks. Yes,
exciting to thank you very much, thank.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
You're welcome every time, soing congratulations in front of me.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I also take that off.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, Ash is godfather, oh godchild. So if I reach
out and I say, Alice, we're having a baby twenty
one weeks, yep, what happens? Then how do I or
how do you make sure that I own the right
potential client for yourself?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Well I do like connect calls so facetimes where I
love the partners to be there too, because I think
that's really important to know that part is on board
for me. I'm like a lot of guys don't understand
what a dueler is, and that's so fine, guilty, but
at least need dad.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
To be like at a five, like if there's a
scale of zero, to ten.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
I need a dad to be at a five where
he's at least like whatever you want, babe, Like I
support your choices.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
That For me, I'm like tick because I know that,
like we're going to get on. But if a dad's
like that sounds dumb, like why are we paying for that?
Like that's stupid? Like that for me, I'm like, oh,
but I do like to connect with the couple to
make sure that we can have a free conversation a
bit of banter, because like I swear, I like have
a sense of humor. I want to have a laugh
I don't.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
I want to bring some fun and light to birth
because it is such a big time, but it should
be a joyous time, so I want to help bring
that out too.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So how do you support mum and dad to be
not during birth, but initially during that pregnancy phase before
you're actually in the room about to give birth.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Yeah, so kind of depends on where they're at. I
love to meet couples like where they are. So if
I meet a couple and they've got zero education, they
don't understand birth, they don't understand like what the body
is doing and what the process looks like.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Then I kind of know we've got to.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Do a bit of education and a bit of like
a more teaching than I would usually do, which I
prefer to do more like connect and and get to
know each other that way.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So maybe it's education.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
But we meet three sometimes four times in pregnancy, have
a group chat going I love, send me some gifts,
send me some memes about pregnancy and shit, and when
we catch up. I like to do a bit of
birth planning and birth prep and then I like to
get physical with my clients.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
That's soundever really weird?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Nice.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
I like to, you know, show them hands on support techniques,
So show them how they can use the different tools.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I've brought some props as well.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Maybe I can show you later, yeah, how they can
be good support people and practice for the for the
big day.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Like positions women give birth and all sorts of different positions,
like on.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
All fours can be, or on their back, on their back,
I think is there more than that they.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Can squat side? Someone says like, hey, I got no
idea when you ask me what my birthing plan is, Like,
I don't even know what's available. What are the kind
of main options like a menu that I can choose from.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
That's a big question.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
It would really depend on what your like birth philosophy is.
So some people will see birth as a really scary
medical event that is going to need a lot of
support and help, I suppose in managing that situation, and
they're going to feel safest having either an obstetrician or
you know, a private midwife maybe, And they're on one side,
(16:23):
and then there's the other side that thinks it's a
really natural event that rarely needs medical interference. So depending
on where you're kind of on this spectrum, birth is
going to look different for you. But you've got lots
of options depending on where you choose to have your baby.
So some people will choose to have their baby in
a public hospital under like midwife care. Those public hospitals
might have baths, so water birth if some people will
(16:44):
want to have epidurals and want to have pain relief,
and they'll want to be you know, on the bed
and not feel the pain of labor. Some people want
to have their baby at home with a private midwife.
Some people want to have an obstetrician, and elective cesarean like,
there's so many choices that exist, and I don't think
people realize exactly what those choices are. So part of
my work is working with a couple to see where
(17:06):
they are on that spectrum, what they want for birth,
what they think could be possible for them, and then
helping them navigate the system to try and get their goals.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I've always been inquisitive about the water births, not for me.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Has Laura had a water birth?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I remember we went This is when Marley was still
in Laura's tummy. We went into the hospital and this
is when we were kind of going through the different options.
Like I had no wight. I thought it was just
like you give birth, you lay on a bed, comes out.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
That's what we see in the movies, right.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
How to remember them. There's like a big, big bathtub.
It's a big one. It was like a half spa.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Getting in the sauna. We have a bath first and
then and then.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
And that's when I found out about water births. And
I don't like blood. So the idea of being like
in with Laura.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
To be in there with it, I just scoot over.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
That.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Actually, that's a good one. Is the water cold or
is it warm?
Speaker 4 (18:08):
No, it's warm. It's it's got to be warm, otherwise
maybe it's get a bit freaked down.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Joe Rogan's in the having and ice.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Degrees. Just breathe three minutes and then how do you differ?
You mentioned midwife before a lot of people, even I
put the call out on social media. The main question
that I got most commonly asked was what is the
difference between a midwife and a dueler.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
So a midwife is someone who is clinically trained and
looks after the clinical care of your yourself and the baby.
So they're really concerned to make sure that you're healthy,
you're well, and medically speaking, you guys are all good
and happy. A dueler is not medically trained, so we
should never ever be performing any medical tasks or like
(18:53):
checking bellies or doing cervical exams or anything like that.
So even though we can be hands on with support
and pressure and acti pressure massage, we're not doing anything
medical at all. So really just providing emotional, physical, informational,
and advocating support. Your midwife is clinically responsible for you
and the baby as well.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
With a midwife, we're saying everything's very medical.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It's what they do day in day out.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You're more in.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
There to support them, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, like bringing the anxiety down and trying to manage
the pain, but without having to do the medical side
of it.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
And I think a lot of midwives would love to
be doing that side as well. But they're in a
system that you know they've got I don't want to downplay,
but lots of paperwork and reporting and lots of things
and checkboxes that they have to do. That means that
they're not really a lot of the time able to
give you that one on one support. And that was
a shock for me when I went into labor with Billy.
I thought my midwife was going to be like with
(19:50):
me the whole time and doing my hip squeezes and
helping me out and giving me different positions.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I just want to say, this is a midwife plan though,
So you have like you have a midwife, just a midwife,
your midwife. Yeah from start, Like you get to sign
a midwife and that will all the way from the start. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura was in the mid with Free program, gotcha. So
if the romany midwives listening and going, well, hang on
a second, we are there. We don't just come in
at birth you get a signed your midwife and then
(20:16):
all your checkups are with that midwife from like until
your full term and then this is the.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Gold standard, so everyone should have that.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
But that midway free group practice program is really hard
to get into and often fills up quite quickly. So
if you're lucky enough to get in that program, like
you're kicking goals, like, good on you, like you've got
this girl.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
But oh, backtrack on that midwifelogize.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
And you know what we need both, Like I think
we really and what works really well is when midwives
and duelers and even obstetricians work on the same team together.
We're all there for the same reason and that's to
make sure that this family has a great birth experience.
So yeah, we should all be working together collaboratively.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
If there is someone who is thinking right now, I
do want to engage the dueler, what would you recommend
the best questions to ask?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
So I would ask them, you know, what their birth
philosophy is, like, like what do they think about pain relief?
What do they think about home birth? What do they
think about private obstetricians? And usually you'll be able to
get a sense of what kind of duela this person is.
I would always want to ask them practical questions like
what's your backup? You know, like what happens if you
can't make my birth? Who would stand in? Or refunds
(21:26):
and that kind of stuff. How many clients do they
take on a month? Just so that you can understand
like where you fit in their calendar and scheme, and
then ask them like what experience they have? What's their
skill set?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
You know?
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Some duelers are really skilled in massage.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
Others are like acupressure geniuses, you know, poetry, yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Shakespearean sonnets, you know, drama skill set.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Stand up comedians. You just got to ask them, you know.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
So yeah, ask them what their skill set is and
how they like to support.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Is there ever a scenario where you go into the
delivery suite, you're then with your client, the midwife comes
in and there's any tension at all between yourself and
the midwife where midwife is like, I think we should
do this, and you go, well, I think this could
be an option.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
Honestly, like, it's happened maybe once or twice. Okay, it's
really rare.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Did you guys punch on?
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Yeah? In the whole way.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I would watch that.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Downstairs to Ed.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
No, very rarely does it happen, and usually it's you know,
I would say as a door in my style of
advocating is not to really speak for the woman.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
If she's able to do it herself.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
So often I'll refer to things like, oh, that's written
on the birth plan, or you know, we had discussed this,
what do you think, and just trying to open up
more of a conversation around it, as opposed to like.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
She doesn't want this, she doesn't want that.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
So it rarely happens occasionally, of course, you know, because
we've got different agendas. I guess, you know, midwives are
working within a system. I'm supporting a client who has
their own wishes. So it's a bit of a dance,
you know.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
And if you're going to the same hospitals, you would
build rapport with these guys anyway, right, It's not like
you're just turning up on day one like you're at
the Mash Hospital. Make it more Hollywood, don't remember I
did drama in primary schools.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Is there ever a scenario where like one thing that
stands out for me as advice that I've heard other
mums give each other is that if you want to
have an epidural, you got to ask for it early.
You don't want to have a scenario where you're like,
I like the epidural please, and I go, actually, you're
too far gone, it's too late. Because I know you
mentioned that you don't get involved in involved in the
(23:42):
medical side of things. Is there ever a case where
you say to that your client, like, if you want
your epidural, you should request it now.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
I don't think I've ever said that.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
I try not to actually offer any pain relief, Like
a lot of the people that I'm working with don't
want that either, like they want to have a more
natural physiological experience. Of course, when I hear a client
that we've had a discussion about epidurals, when I hear
them say like I want an epi durol, I'm like, great,
Like she wants an epi driol, and we kind of
make it happen. I wouldn't ever offer it because I
think that's kind of almost a sign that you think
(24:14):
that they can't do it or they're not handling it.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yea.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
So I kind of like try not.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
To ever offer pain relief because I believe that they
can do it without it until they ask for it themselves.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeah, because you could imagine being in that vulnerable state
and you're going, I think you should. Yeah, your emotions
are so probably so heightened right there that yeah, you could.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
It could be a bit traumatic. I spose and I
had a.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Midwife do that to me in my first birth, and
this is the one that I want to have, the
beautiful water birth. And when I was like, oh, this
is really hard, she just like, have some gas, and
I was like.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
I love gas, Like send me off, like you know,
that's the only reason I go to the dentist, like
the gas.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
So when she said that, I was like, oh, I
feel like a bit of a drug addict, like hook
me up. And that just started like that menu of
pain relief for me. So yeah, I try not to
try not to offer it.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I get that it was so good too.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I'm understanding more of the role of a dueler and
tell me if this is way off here, But it
kind of feels like you're almost like a supportive parent.
So that's been there before.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah, is that?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Am I kind of getting on the right track? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Can you give me examples of where when you're at
birth in the delivery suite, and what ways do you
support your patient.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
So lots of different ways. One is just being close.
I know it sounds really weiry, but we call it
holding space. So it's really just being kind of a
bodyguard of the area to make sure that that kind
of bubble doesn't get popped, whether it's like unwanted interruptions
and that kind of thing and unwanted questions. It's always
nice to have a handhold. Like people often be like, oh,
(25:52):
dolors are just handholders. I'm like, well, you've never had
your handheld.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Really good, because it's so nice to have your.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Handheld and just to like know that someone is there
and that has been through it and that knows that
you can do it. And then there's all the physical
side of things, So the hip squeezes, the acupressure, the positions,
the helping babies turn positions when maybe they might be posterior,
and trying to encourage them to turn around, encouraging different
forms of pain relief. So we've got showers, we've got
(26:18):
birth balls, birth comes, tens, machines, there's so many ways
you can support. And then the other one would just
be like advocating, so you know, either if it's buying
them more time and.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Then once delivered, yes, are you like, well.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
They got to get home for bedtime.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
No.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
I usually stay like up to maybe two hours after
the baby's born. Definitely like love to step back and
let mom and dad have their moment meeting their their
baby and trying to take some photos and videos and
stuff for them, And then I kind of will often
go out and make mum like a nice cup of
like chicken sleep or broth or like you know, is
it natural organic, So they've got these powders, they're really good,
(26:58):
and I make them broth and come back and make
sure that they're doing well having their skin to skin
and that Sometimes I can help latch, you know, if
they want a breastfeed, and make sure that mum's got
everything that she needs for either that night or to
go home. Sometimes I'm helping you have a shower and
then making sure she's all tucked up and happy and
save and well.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
The hospital can be a pretty isolating place depending on
It's so different every day, right, Like I remember just
being like people in and out in and out in
and out in and out, and it must be really
comforting for mums to be that take up a dueler
to have someone there all the time if they want
them there all the time to help them with those
(27:37):
things that they're and not feel isolated.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Do you get that as a response from people. Yeah?
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
And sometimes if mums have an unexpected like stay in hospital,
they're staying a few days that they didn't expect to.
Sometimes I'll bring supplies from home or make sure that
they've got some food, bring them food to the hospital
so that they're not eating a cheese sandwich and a
dry wee bigs, you know. So yeah, it's nice to
have a friendly face when you're in there for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
And then do you then still stay in contact with
them when they've returned home if they have had a
hospital state. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
So a lot of my packages have you know, six
weeks postpartum care in them as well.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
So I'll come over postpartum, make mum food.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
And make sure she's well and sitting down because they
always bloody get up. And when I come around, I
want you in bed, I want your hair and a mumbum.
I want you covered in breast milk like I want
you just looking like shit.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Basically, I come around, they.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Always look amazing and I'm like, yeah, yeah, they never
listened to me.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
In those post visits. My wife suffered from postpartum depression
pretty badly. Do you lend an air for those people?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Absolutely, And just being someone that they can talk to
without judgment, you know, and not try and be that
toxic positivity that a lot of like people get in
the newborn stage.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Like isn't it amazing? And yeah, it is, but it's
also can be really hard sometimes.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Yeah, and just on that as well, like knowing where
the red flags are someone can't recognize it in themselves
and being able to then refer on if I think
that it's beyond my scope as a dueler, and I
think that they might need more support and more clinical
care or clinical supervision so that you can get onto
it early.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Real mother, hen vibe, you're there for the whole process
and then after the process for you to go in
six weeks later, and then also lend an air And
that must be really powerful for a lot of women.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
So yeah, and it's nice to be around there. They
often call being a duela like mothering the mother. It's
nice because you've got this baby that is sucking everything
out of you.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
You're recovering from birth and now you're feeding the baby.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
You're not getting any sleep, and then to have someone
come over and make sure that you're okay so that
you can do that again tomorrow is like just fills
your cut back up for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
When you look at all the births that you've been
involved in, when you look at the dads, what advice
can you give? And this may be not just for us,
but for any dads to be that are listening and
they're thinking, how can I help not only during pregnancy
but during birth and postpartum. What's the best advice you
can give?
Speaker 5 (30:05):
The best advice is in pregnancy. Please listen to the
podcast that she's sending you. Yeah, like you've got to
be on the same educational journey that she's on because
a lot of the time pregnancy we go through this.
You know, I've got to learn all this stuff, I've
got a prep for birth, and then dads kind of
just continue on their life because it's not happening to
(30:27):
their body right, So it's hard to sometimes connect with that,
especially if it's your first. So listen to the podcast
go to the course, try to stay awake a time,
try not to stream sports while you.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And you turn out alright, all right, yeah, I've got
a whole podcast on parenting now, so.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
So yeah, go on the educational journey with her, because
when when she's in birth and when she's in labor land,
she's actually not in that brain anymore. So you kind
of have to be her brain for her. In birth,
whatever she says goes right. So like if she says,
you know, it's time to go to the hospital, or
I want to do this, or I need this, I
want this, you kind of got to be like, yes,
(31:13):
I believe in you. I believe you can, and I'm
listening to what you say, you know, because instinct is
so powerful in birth, so we need to like really
tune into what she's saying because a lot of the time,
like in labor, you can't really form full sentences. It's
hard to get your words out. So when she does
say something, we need to listen.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Because I feel quite redundant in the birthing suite obviously,
Like if Laura asks for anything, then I'm like straight
onto it is anything unprompted or proactive that a partner
should be aware of in the birthing suite. Yep.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Absolutely, So the first thing I would say is always
be physically close to her. So if she's going to
the toilet, you're going to the toilet with her. If
she wants to get in the shower, you're holding the
shower jets with her. If she's getting in the bath,
you're sitting by the bath. Always being really physically close
because you are the most important person to her in
that room. You know, even if you have a dueler,
(32:03):
nothing will replace the love that you guys have for
each other. And love is what it sounds like, It's
really beautiful. Love is what we need to make contractions happen.
Right That oxytocin hormone is what is going to power labor.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
So she needs you really close.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
So even if you don't know what to say, just
being there and even holding her hand is like enough.
If she's ever saying things like I can't do it anymore,
I'm so tired, rather than saying like, yeah, let's get
you an epidural, baby, look tired, we really want to
say like turn it into an affirmation of like I
know you can do this. You've prepared for this you're
(32:35):
so strong, and like hearing that from your partner is
like like gives all of those like oxytocin vibes so encouragement.
And then if she's really saying she can't do it anymore, distraction,
So let's switch it up. So even if you to
make like a triangle in the birth suite of like
you know, the bed up on its highest level so
that she can lean up against it, the shower and
(32:56):
the bath, if you just move between those three stations
in the hospital, just keep distracting her.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
You're by yourself so much time.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I have a flashback to when I got really hungry
and I have to go down to the get a sandwich.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Oh my god, so not physically close.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah. And on that note, is there is there anything
that dads shouldn't do? Does anything stick out that you've
seen or heard of where you're like, that's like that's
a no brainer, but don't do it.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
The first thing that comes to me, Yeah, I've heard
your birth story, so I know that. The first thing
that came to mind was if you drive a big truck.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Like check that it goes in the car park of
the hospital, Please please, like do a drive by in
the birth suite, I would say, like, is there anything
that you can't do? Is like, please don't be on
your phone, even if you think.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Before you're fucking streaming in the birth class, it's different.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
You got it out of business mainly did the day
out or yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:02):
Like even when you're hiding it, you know, like at
school when you think that, like the teacher can't see
you on your phone and they because they so can.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
You flash they can't yeh.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
Try not to call your mom, you know while birth
is happening. Yeah, let's wait for the placenta to be
born before you do that, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And then postpartum, I think that's a time where a
lot of partners feel a bit redundant because Bubba's so
attached to mom. What's your advice on how they can
be a standout individual.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Or stand out individual?
Speaker 5 (34:30):
I would say, if you've if this is your first baby,
please be with her in the nighttime. So nighttime feeds
is a real like whack to the system.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Your hormones are going crazy.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
So even if you feel like you can't do much,
even just being with her and sitting up with her
in bed and like being a support, like what do
you need me to grab? Changing the nappy after the
feed and being there for those night feeds can help
make her feel less alone.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
And then if you could.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
Encourage her and be supportive of her really resting and
I mean really resting, like treat her like a in
those two weeks, even if you could like ideally six,
but like it's unrealistic for a lot of people to.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Be doing that.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
So if you could give it two weeks of just
like being a doting dad and a doting husband, well said,
that would be amazing. You're making sure that she's staying
in bed, she's staying warm, she's sped, she's showered and
has unhydrated well, and he's encouraged to be in bed
with the baby's skin to skin. If you have other kids,
(35:29):
really doing what you can to take those other kids
away so that she has wanting time with the newborn,
because she's probably going to feel like her heart is
split in For Laura's case.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Three, Yeah, that was one of the biggest regrets that
we have is once Lola was born, coming home as
quickly as we could, and then having it's so so
hard because Marley was eighteen months and they don't understand.
And this time around, Laura is like, I will stay
in that hospital bed for as long as a bloody can.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
It's a holiday with a newborn, yeah, and it's a
bit divide and conquering those days if you've got other kids,
so it can kind of feel like you know you've yeah,
you're with your newborn, your partners with the other kid.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
So just making time to connect with her as well.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I remember some of the some advice I got given
was but for those nighttime feeds is just just don't
say anything to her, just.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Be there, Just be there and do it.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
If she says can you get me some water, don't
even say yes, just go and do it, because yes
could come out as like an attitude.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You're both tired, exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I remember as a new dad first time, I put
so much pressure on myself to be up all the
time that it made us both tired the whole time
and too tired.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
People don't equal a fully rested person. But I was
always felt like the pressure to do so. But then
I was like, Okay, well I'm going to do it,
but I'm not going to say anything.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
So then she can look across the dark room and
I'm there, but only if she needs me to do something.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And then, you know, sometimes i'd fall asleep.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Sorry, you can't help it, slippery, come far across the room,
wake up.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
And then you've obviously been through many births. Do you
know the exact number of how many you've been involved in?
Speaker 4 (37:05):
I did count it for you. We're up to thirty four.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Now, wow, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
How are you here to celebrate the fiftieth drink? Are
there any births? Yeah, that stand out for you as
being the most memorable? Oh? Yes.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
It was actually a good friend of mine that I
met through my mother's group. I'm now fully identified her
as well. Anyway, she says, will you Abby, will you
be my dueler for our second? And I thought this,
this is incredible, Like I'd love to. So it happened
around Christmas time and I was working in radio at
the time, so we had this like big Christmas Carol's event,
and as an on call dueler, and like working big events,
(37:44):
you're kind of like it's a little bit stressful. So yeah,
I'm like wearing my freaking glitters Christmas outfit. Fuck, And
I'm thinking I think she might have been like thirty
nine weeks or something, and we're messaging in this group
chat of this mother's group, and Abby says, I'm going
to go for a walk. I'm gonna walk this baby out.
And I'm like, how can you not, because like I'm
at this event. And one of our other friends in
(38:05):
mother's group sends her an excerpt of like fifty Shades
of Gray and it's like this will get that, this will
get the juices going.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
And I'm like, how dare you like like the audio
of it, like like a screenshot of the like Kindle
book or something like, you know, the passage of my
giant pulsetting member, you know, like like yeah, like real smart.
And I'm like, god, like doesn't work. Well, yeah, you
know that's it right. I'm thinking anyway, she's going for
(38:34):
a walk.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
Then I get, like maybe an hour later, I get
this message from her husband saying, hey, like she's having
some like contractions.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
I think we might be on And I'm like, da,
do you haven't in my hand?
Speaker 5 (38:47):
I'm like, I'm going to use this when my next
mum gets to forty two weeks. You know, screenshots, smartfolder,
It's the work I sweat. So I'm like, ship, I
better go. So I I go up to work and
I'm like, hey, like I think a baby's coming, Like.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
I got to run. They're like, just go do what
you need to do. Totally got out of the pack
out pack down for the event, perfect so much. I
run home.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
I message my husband Phil be like can you get
my dueler bag ready?
Speaker 4 (39:12):
And like my T shirt or like whatever I gotta
get changed I could have like here's a Christmas mirror.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I run home.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Luckily they don't live far from me, Like I'm I'm speeding,
like I got out of the car park.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
I'm speeding home.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
I get a message saying her waters have just broken,
like babies coming, and I'm like fuck, So I like
grab my bag, Hey Phil, Hey girls, like mommy's got
to go, like help the babies. I run out the
door and I go into the house the husband's mother,
and mother's sitting on the couch downstairs.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
And she's like hello Alice, and I was like, Hi,
like go upstairs, go into the bedroom.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
Abby's in the bathroom and she's she's roaring at this stage,
and I was like, wow, you doing so amazing, like
you're doing so well and try and just like bring
the bring the pressure down a bit, bring the anxiety down.
And she's going and I'm thinking like okay, like her
waters are broken. All the signs are pointing to like
this baby's coming soon. And she says like I was
(40:09):
like okay, Harry, like you know, listen to those words, Harry,
like let's get the.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Car going, like we need to go. And Harry's like yes, yes, yes,
yes yes. Then I hear like this real like beddown.
She says, we're not going to make it.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
And I was like, okay, Harry, we're not gonna make it.
Can you call an ambulance? So Harry is like yeap, cool.
So we get on the phone to ambulance and I'm like,
you're gonna be okay, let's sit on the toilet because
I know that that's like can relax the pelvic floor.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
She's doing so.
Speaker 5 (40:38):
Well breathing this you know baby, and the ambulance is
on the phone.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I said, you can pop it on loud speaker.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
And these ambulance like paramedics are following this script right
like they don't they don't really know, they don't not
know birth, but they following this script that they have
to do. And so it's like put her on her back,
is can you see the baby's head? And so poor
Harry is going, hey, babe, can you get on your back?
Speaker 4 (40:59):
And she's like no oh, and I'm like no, we're
not getting on the back. Like the baby's like coming.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
And it doesn't just for anyone listening, if this happens,
it doesn't change the fact that they're sending an ambulance.
It's just like the triage on the phone, yep. And
so she's got here. The lady's going like can you
see your head? And poor Harry's like trying to like
get back there and like see if he can see
his head.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
And I'm like, Harry like trying to swalloway his hands.
Speaker 5 (41:19):
Like you can't do a vaginal exam on her, you know,
like this this baby's starting to crown. So the ambulance
turns up. But we've got a head, like this head
is coming. So I'm filming.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
We're in the bathroom, like on the tiles on the floor,
get some.
Speaker 5 (41:31):
Towels, going. Harry's sort of in front. I'm like you
can hang up now on the ambulance. Paramedics are waiting
outside and a couple of pushes later, like Harry's picked
up his baby and like looking at this baby. And
then I said, put it on mum's chest and so
he passed it to Abby and Abby's holding his baby
and she's like, oh my gosh, like I've just had
this baby at home, Like I've got shivers telling it now,
(41:54):
like so incredible. I've got it all on film and
it was just amazing. And these paramedics are out out
side and I was like, do you guys want to
come in?
Speaker 4 (42:02):
They're like, oh no, you guys have got this, and
I'm like, what turns out?
Speaker 5 (42:06):
When the paramedics arrived, Harry's mum said, oh yeah, they're
upstairs with the midwife. So these paramedics were like, oh,
we're sweet here. So like I said, I'm like, I'm
not a midwife, like I'm a duela. Like I'm not
sure for this, you know.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
So they came in and yeah, she was.
Speaker 5 (42:21):
She was perfect. Happy they had a little girl. They
already had a boy.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
So this was a very exciting moment.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
And it sounds great, but I would not.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
Want that to know, like call Harry the midman now,
because he did. He did such a good job.
Speaker 5 (42:35):
So delivered his baby on the bathroom floor of their
freshly renovated bathroom. So we got like, so they go
off to hospital. I'm like staying to Harry's. Can you
start like cleaning the tiles? Like I don't want to stay.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
You've mentioned that you do have some toys with you.
We're not going to do it on the podcast, but
we have a tense machine, so we're going to experience yep,
close to what later may feel like or me. We'll
figure it out.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
Well, you can do half half at the same time,
so who can handle more?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, there we go Like that, we go. So we're
not going to do it on the podcast episode, but
if you do want to watch this, it'll be on
our socials. Alice, thank you so much for joining us today.
We are going to now get into the tense machine. Yes,
so Ash, prepare yourself. I'm assuming it's going to be intense.
So there is, there is, there is. It's been a pleasure.
(43:27):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Thanks for coming. We really appreciate you giving us all the.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Information about doers because I had no idea really what what.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
A dealer is. So thank you.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
You're welcome, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I'm annoyed that we didn't start this podcast before I
had kids, which obviously wouldn't have worked because you can't
do a parony podcast without kids.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Don't think you'd be called two Doting dads with no kids?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, correct, unless go on to doting dog dads.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Well, I just think I know so much more now
that what a shame.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
It's for your next marriage.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
My current wife is Thrill.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Review, share, share, and join and us on social media
either TikTok, Instagram or Facebook.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
There is a group.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Just search two Doting Dads and you will find it.
I have to warn people though, when you search two
Doting Dads, if you're like me, the algorithm is like, ah,
you want gay content? Is that? Haven't anyone else?
Speaker 3 (44:35):
What else?
Speaker 1 (44:35):
That's my excuse?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
You put you You typed in two gay dads.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Didn't you love this shit? I typed it into pornharb
and I was like.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Oh whoops, not again speaking about porn harbit. It's time
I go.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Sorry, I'll see you next time. Two Doting Dads podcast
acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and connections
to Land sea and community.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present,
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate Islander
peoples today
Ash. I'm gonna pick on the spot here far away,
big go. Okay, do you know? All right? Give me
your answer. What does a dueler do?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It fills my tummy because it sounds like a delicious
Indian feet.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I think that's dull You got me, You got me.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
At first I thought it was what's that Dwali? It's
an Indian festival of food and culture and color and music.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That sounds lovely. It's not. It's not what a dueler does.
But don't worry, because we have Alice Worthy here today.
She is the modern duela who supports women through one
of the most intense moments of their lives. Yes, I'm
talking about childbirth.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yes, we get into what a duela actually does, how
they differ from midwives, and how partners don't have to
just stand there awkwardly in.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The labor room or birthing Sweet.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Plus, Alice shares her most unforgettable birth story. Let's just
say the parents christen their newly renovated bathroom.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum
slash dueler. I am Mattie, j.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I'm Ash, and I'm Alice the modern Dueller.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is
the good, it is the bad and the relatable and Alice,
we have to say for legal reasons, not really legal reasons,
but kind of legal reasons, not real.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Not real, fake legal.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, we don't give advice, Ash and I never had
that a will. We do sometimes, but if it does
come out as advice, it's accidental. But you are more
than welcome to give advice.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
There's a loophole in that legalities are allowed.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
To I'm allowed to guess are immune from those legal ramifications.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You can break the law here and you're fine.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I'll talk to my lawyer.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
We do like to start with our guess a little
journey back in time to when they were a youngster
and Ash, do you think Alice was someone who was
well behaved or was she someone who was quite naughty?
She's from Central Coast.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yes, I'm going to say class clown ish.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
You picked that up already.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Yeah, I was like a drama kid. Yeah, I was
a drama kid.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
And mom and dad always said like, it doesn't matter
about your grades, you just try your hardest.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
So I was like, okay, I'll be dramatic.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
When did you get your first taste of drama?
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Oh would have been as soon as I kind of
started school, maybe year four.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I was like a Shakespeare kind of kid. O hard
to believe, I know.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Can you remember any of it?
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (02:44):
Nothing, nothing, but I think I did play like Desdemona
in something we went to the Shakespeare like I can't
even remember now, like Desdemona and.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Is there a fellow?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Just full disclosure, I don't know what any of these were.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I just want you to know.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
You said that this was like a previous life, so
I was like, I can't remember now, still left my body.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Did you ever get in trouble?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Probably when I was in primary school This would have
been like year two maybe, and mom and dad sent
me to after school care. They owned a cafe at
the time and so they would work on long hours
and I used to have to go to after school care,
which I hated. So I took it upon myself to
just get the bus home because I knew where the
bus went, and like it was a school bar. It
(03:27):
was a school bus, so probably younger. Yeah, I was
young for my year too, so I just was like,
fuck this, I'm not going after school care, got on
the bus took me all the way because we lived
at Copacabanna, which was like the furthest suburb away.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
So I was like last kid on the bus.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
With my friend Maya. I don't even know where she
is now, but she helped me. I got off, I
went to Maya's house. Her mom was like, hey, like,
you didn't know you were coming over today, because you know,
it would be weird if your kid turned up with
like a kid from school, And I was like, yeah, no,
my mom said at school, So I lied. Maya's mom
(04:01):
called my mom because after school care was freaking out.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
We're missing one those poor teenagers who are running after
school care eighteen year old.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
But I think secretly, deep down, mom and dad were
like she's independent, Like she's great.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I like to believe that. Now I'm not sure if
it's true. I should ask them.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
But what was the punishment? Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I don't remember.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Like my dad was always like, a you were grounded
for a month, And then the next day I'd be like,
can I go to my friend's house?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And he's like, get out of here.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
As much easier for you to not be at home.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, grounding your kids is more punishment to the parents and.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Them away boarding school for you.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Thank you. Look at you now such an independent woman.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Yeah, I can get the bus. Yeah, I mean doing
this forever. So yeah, I got in trouble for that.
But otherwise, like my parents were pretty I had older brothers,
so they did a lot of breaking in for me. So, yeah,
are you the youngest I am of how many of three?
My brothers are ten and eight years older than me,
So they're in their forties.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
They're really old.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Wow. Yeah, I'm pretty much there. Actually, I'm hanging on
to thirty seven for as long as I can.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, Like my grandmother's been twenty nine for like fifty
five years.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You could do that too.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
It's all about how you feel.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes, how do you feel so good? You look great.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
You haven't always been a dueler? No, you used to
work in media, yes, so Ash and I were wondering,
how does someone who works in media all of a
sudden become a dueler?
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Yeah, a bit of a wild career change, just a
but I've actually been doing both for a long time,
so I kind of was running the double life a bit,
like you know, Hannah Montana. I had been in media,
working in radio, and then when I felt pregnant and
I went through my own first birth experience that obviously
changed everything, as it does for so many people, and
(05:55):
I was like, wow.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Before pregnancy, no idea, what a doula was. I didn't
even know what a cervix was, So like, was so.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
With your first what was your birth plan? How did
that unfold? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Well, the birth plan was like, have an amazing, beautiful
hypno birthing in the water, no payment, amazing, Yeah, that
was that was the plan.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
The plan, Okay, and how did that go?
Speaker 5 (06:23):
NEPI dural and just you know, push this baby out
after like fifty two hours, so you.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Know, like fifty two hours.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before birth, I was like Paula
Abdullah Jeweler, like what's a duela?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Had no idea and people would kind of mentioned it,
and I thought like why would I ever need one
of those?
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Like, I'm gonna be fine, my buddy's meant to do this.
I was like, people birth all the time, people.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Birth every day, Like I got this, and then like
first contraction, I was like I don't have this, you know.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
So that was a bit of a rude shock.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
But I kind of came out of that and I
was like, I get now why people need more support
or should you know, we should have more support if
they want it. So I was a bit bored on
maternity leaf. I was like, what am I going to
do with my life now? Like I'm a mom, what
am I doing? So I thought I'll just do this
duel of course, because it sounds cool. And I did
the course and I was like, this is amazing.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
But I also don't feel like I fit the dueler vibe,
you know, because there's a bit of a stereotype that
duelers are really hippie and spiritual and you know, sage
sticking and you know, burning centers in the woodsage. Yeah,
clearing the space of like things.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
You know, it's great if you're into it, but I
just was there was never me. So I kind of
thought like, maybe this is not Is.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
There smoke involved?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can't have smoke around someone
who's giving birth. Is that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
It's not like a bonfire, it's just a sage stick
you will.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yes, okay, like burning incense.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Kind of candle coup of candles for the aura, thank you? Yes.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Always thought, you know, maybe I don't really fit that.
But then I thought I.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Went into pregnancy and birth and I would have loved
some support that wasn't super spiritual and about all that.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
So I thought I was just going to give this
a go.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
But I didn't want to jump into running my own
business without the security of an income, so I went
back to work full time in radio.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
As well with the course. Yes, how long is that course?
Speaker 5 (08:19):
The course I did was I think it was like
seven days total over a couple of months, like a
couple of weekends. But you don't need a course to
be a dueler. It's not a regulated industry, so you
don't have to do a course. But I thought I
just wanted to to like expand my skills and set
and education. And I went back to radio and I
was working radio, and I said to them like, hey,
I'm also a dueler now, like I'm coming back as
(08:41):
a mum, but I also have my side business here.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
And they were like that's.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
Cool, like so supportive and so willing to work with me.
So there were a couple of times I'd be at
work and I'd look at my phone and be.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Like, shit, got to go, and they're like have fun,
good luck.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
How do you find your first client?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
So we had to do three student birth experiences. So
I got them through word of mouth. A physio referred me,
another duela referred me for someone. So yeah, and it's
like having your l plates on.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
You're like you're just like in the room going through
the whole process with a duela that's been experienced or
good wife.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
Or or a I don't know, No, you're doing it
on your own, like, so it was more that you
supported these families through. We kept a diary, we checked
in with like our educator and stuff, but it was
pretty much off your own devices.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
But yeah, they were great and I did those and
then I was certified and away we went.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
How was the first birth?
Speaker 5 (09:37):
The first birth was actually amazing. It was a first
time mum. She was incredible, a water birth in the hospital,
zero intervention. So as a dueler who's done this course, thinking.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Like, this is how birth exactly should be. This is textbook.
Seeing my first birth that wasn't my own like that,
I was like, it's real, Like it really is a thing.
I was on an oxytocin high four day.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
Yeah, and a couple of my other colleagues in the
course had had births that were so like they were
like I saw everything. I saw the cascade of intervention,
you know, I saw the cascades, so like you intervene
somewhere along the way in it kind of cascades and
it can just like a snowball effect, everything kind of
ends up happening. And they had seen that, and I'd
seen this beautiful water birth. You know, my time would
(10:20):
come for seeing those things too. But yeah, that was
my first experience as.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
A daller, literally straight into the deep end.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And you said that they're like, you do three experiences
it I did.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yes, what do they call them against student birth?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Student birth? Okay?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And the person who you're supporting obviously know you're student birth,
so she's a first mum and this is your first time. Yeah,
I can imagine the maybe the anxiety in the air
or was it your job to bring that back down?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Bring it back down? Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (10:48):
And the thing about supporting someone through birth, and I
was guilty of this thinking that you have to have
all the answers and you have to know all the
evidence and have all the information, and really it's not
about that all, you know, It's about making sure that
that woman and her partner feel in control and feel
like they're driving that shit and you're just kind of
there to support and guide along the way.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
So she was amazing. She had an incredible mindset.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
She was an athlete as well, so she like had
a good performance mindset. So as a dueler, I was like,
this is this is dream client goals.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
You know, after you do those three student bursts, are
you like going hard and trying to recruit your next client?
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Yeah, yeah, it's I actually felt pregnant, so in that
student kind of I was doing my student burst, I
feltregnant again, and I was like, and unplanned pregnancy. But
I feel like an idiot saying that when you're an adult,
because you're like, I know how pregnancy works, I know
how it happens, so like you know, whoop.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
See We're like, I can't believe it.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
That happened always.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
So that was a bit of a shock because I
was my girls are eighteen months apart, so I had
two under two, and I was like, I had a
bit of a break, but I was you're active on
social media, which was good because you're always working nine
months ahead like my clients that I'm signing at the moment.
Are due in January February, you know, so you're.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Always working a long way.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
So I kind of was planning to be back doing
burst around four months postpartum, so I could kind of plan.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
That head to get the next client.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That's pretty quick. Yeah, especially with two under two. I
know you're telling congratulations.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
And so someone right now maybe they they haven't had
a child just yet, they're thinking about they're planning that
to get pregnant.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
When is the right time to engage with a.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
Dueler, I would say, like most duelers will offer obligation
free connect calls and catch ups and stuff. So if
you really want to take your time finding the one
that's right for you, which I do recommend, like meet
with a few, you could even do it before you're pregnant,
just so that you've put the feelers out in the
connects to be like, hey, I'm thinking about this, and
(12:54):
maybe some guidance or some support in your trying to
conceive journey. So it's never too early. But I would
say most people will reach out at the moment. It's
like people are peeing on a stick and sending me
a photo of their double lines. You know, that's kind
of where we're at now. And I'm like, whoa, Okay,
this is great, amazing, And then some people don't find
me till like thirty weeks and they're like.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Shit's changed.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
My plan is, I don't know what's happening, Like I
need support, and you know, usually I can kind of.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Make them fit.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And so we are now currently twenty one weeks. Yes,
exciting to thank you very much, thank.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
You're welcome every time, soing congratulations in front of me.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I also take that off.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, Ash is godfather, oh godchild. So if I reach
out and I say, Alice, we're having a baby twenty
one weeks, yep, what happens? Then how do I or
how do you make sure that I own the right
potential client for yourself?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Well I do like connect calls so facetimes where I
love the partners to be there too, because I think
that's really important to know that part is on board
for me. I'm like a lot of guys don't understand
what a dueler is, and that's so fine, guilty, but
at least need dad.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
To be like at a five, like if there's a
scale of zero, to ten.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
I need a dad to be at a five where
he's at least like whatever you want, babe, Like I
support your choices.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
That For me, I'm like tick because I know that,
like we're going to get on. But if a dad's
like that sounds dumb, like why are we paying for that?
Like that's stupid? Like that for me, I'm like, oh,
but I do like to connect with the couple to
make sure that we can have a free conversation a
bit of banter, because like I swear, I like have
a sense of humor. I want to have a laugh
I don't.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
I want to bring some fun and light to birth
because it is such a big time, but it should
be a joyous time, so I want to help bring
that out too.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So how do you support mum and dad to be
not during birth, but initially during that pregnancy phase before
you're actually in the room about to give birth.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Yeah, so kind of depends on where they're at. I
love to meet couples like where they are. So if
I meet a couple and they've got zero education, they
don't understand birth, they don't understand like what the body
is doing and what the process looks like.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Then I kind of know we've got to.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Do a bit of education and a bit of like
a more teaching than I would usually do, which I
prefer to do more like connect and and get to
know each other that way.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So maybe it's education.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
But we meet three sometimes four times in pregnancy, have
a group chat going I love, send me some gifts,
send me some memes about pregnancy and shit, and when
we catch up. I like to do a bit of
birth planning and birth prep and then I like to
get physical with my clients.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
That's soundever really weird?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Nice.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
I like to, you know, show them hands on support techniques,
So show them how they can use the different tools.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I've brought some props as well.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Maybe I can show you later, yeah, how they can
be good support people and practice for the for the
big day.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Like positions women give birth and all sorts of different positions,
like on.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
All fours can be, or on their back, on their back,
I think is there more than that they.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Can squat side? Someone says like, hey, I got no
idea when you ask me what my birthing plan is, Like,
I don't even know what's available. What are the kind
of main options like a menu that I can choose from.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
That's a big question.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
It would really depend on what your like birth philosophy is.
So some people will see birth as a really scary
medical event that is going to need a lot of
support and help, I suppose in managing that situation, and
they're going to feel safest having either an obstetrician or
you know, a private midwife maybe, And they're on one side,
(16:23):
and then there's the other side that thinks it's a
really natural event that rarely needs medical interference. So depending
on where you're kind of on this spectrum, birth is
going to look different for you. But you've got lots
of options depending on where you choose to have your baby.
So some people will choose to have their baby in
a public hospital under like midwife care. Those public hospitals
might have baths, so water birth if some people will
(16:44):
want to have epidurals and want to have pain relief,
and they'll want to be you know, on the bed
and not feel the pain of labor. Some people want
to have their baby at home with a private midwife.
Some people want to have an obstetrician, and elective cesarean like,
there's so many choices that exist, and I don't think
people realize exactly what those choices are. So part of
my work is working with a couple to see where
(17:06):
they are on that spectrum, what they want for birth,
what they think could be possible for them, and then
helping them navigate the system to try and get their goals.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I've always been inquisitive about the water births, not for me.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Has Laura had a water birth?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I remember we went This is when Marley was still
in Laura's tummy. We went into the hospital and this
is when we were kind of going through the different options.
Like I had no wight. I thought it was just
like you give birth, you lay on a bed, comes out.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
That's what we see in the movies, right.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
How to remember them. There's like a big, big bathtub.
It's a big one. It was like a half spa.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Getting in the sauna. We have a bath first and
then and then.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
And that's when I found out about water births. And
I don't like blood. So the idea of being like
in with Laura.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
To be in there with it, I just scoot over.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
That.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Actually, that's a good one. Is the water cold or
is it warm?
Speaker 4 (18:08):
No, it's warm. It's it's got to be warm, otherwise
maybe it's get a bit freaked down.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Joe Rogan's in the having and ice.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Degrees. Just breathe three minutes and then how do you differ?
You mentioned midwife before a lot of people, even I
put the call out on social media. The main question
that I got most commonly asked was what is the
difference between a midwife and a dueler.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
So a midwife is someone who is clinically trained and
looks after the clinical care of your yourself and the baby.
So they're really concerned to make sure that you're healthy,
you're well, and medically speaking, you guys are all good
and happy. A dueler is not medically trained, so we
should never ever be performing any medical tasks or like
(18:53):
checking bellies or doing cervical exams or anything like that.
So even though we can be hands on with support
and pressure and acti pressure massage, we're not doing anything
medical at all. So really just providing emotional, physical, informational,
and advocating support. Your midwife is clinically responsible for you
and the baby as well.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
With a midwife, we're saying everything's very medical.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It's what they do day in day out.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You're more in.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
There to support them, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, like bringing the anxiety down and trying to manage
the pain, but without having to do the medical side
of it.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
And I think a lot of midwives would love to
be doing that side as well. But they're in a
system that you know they've got I don't want to downplay,
but lots of paperwork and reporting and lots of things
and checkboxes that they have to do. That means that
they're not really a lot of the time able to
give you that one on one support. And that was
a shock for me when I went into labor with Billy.
I thought my midwife was going to be like with
(19:50):
me the whole time and doing my hip squeezes and
helping me out and giving me different positions.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I just want to say, this is a midwife plan though,
So you have like you have a midwife, just a midwife,
your midwife. Yeah from start, Like you get to sign
a midwife and that will all the way from the start. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura was in the mid with Free program, gotcha. So
if the romany midwives listening and going, well, hang on
a second, we are there. We don't just come in
at birth you get a signed your midwife and then
(20:16):
all your checkups are with that midwife from like until
your full term and then this is the.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Gold standard, so everyone should have that.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
But that midway free group practice program is really hard
to get into and often fills up quite quickly. So
if you're lucky enough to get in that program, like
you're kicking goals, like, good on you, like you've got
this girl.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
But oh, backtrack on that midwifelogize.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
And you know what we need both, Like I think
we really and what works really well is when midwives
and duelers and even obstetricians work on the same team together.
We're all there for the same reason and that's to
make sure that this family has a great birth experience.
So yeah, we should all be working together collaboratively.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
If there is someone who is thinking right now, I
do want to engage the dueler, what would you recommend
the best questions to ask?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
So I would ask them, you know, what their birth
philosophy is, like, like what do they think about pain relief?
What do they think about home birth? What do they
think about private obstetricians? And usually you'll be able to
get a sense of what kind of duela this person is.
I would always want to ask them practical questions like
what's your backup? You know, like what happens if you
can't make my birth? Who would stand in? Or refunds
(21:26):
and that kind of stuff. How many clients do they
take on a month? Just so that you can understand
like where you fit in their calendar and scheme, and
then ask them like what experience they have? What's their
skill set?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
You know?
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Some duelers are really skilled in massage.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
Others are like acupressure geniuses, you know, poetry, yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Shakespearean sonnets, you know, drama skill set.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Stand up comedians. You just got to ask them, you know.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
So yeah, ask them what their skill set is and
how they like to support.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Is there ever a scenario where you go into the
delivery suite, you're then with your client, the midwife comes
in and there's any tension at all between yourself and
the midwife where midwife is like, I think we should
do this, and you go, well, I think this could
be an option.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
Honestly, like, it's happened maybe once or twice. Okay, it's
really rare.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Did you guys punch on?
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Yeah? In the whole way.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I would watch that.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Downstairs to Ed.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
No, very rarely does it happen, and usually it's you know,
I would say as a door in my style of
advocating is not to really speak for the woman.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
If she's able to do it herself.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
So often I'll refer to things like, oh, that's written
on the birth plan, or you know, we had discussed this,
what do you think, and just trying to open up
more of a conversation around it, as opposed to like.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
She doesn't want this, she doesn't want that.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
So it rarely happens occasionally, of course, you know, because
we've got different agendas. I guess, you know, midwives are
working within a system. I'm supporting a client who has
their own wishes. So it's a bit of a dance,
you know.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
And if you're going to the same hospitals, you would
build rapport with these guys anyway, right, It's not like
you're just turning up on day one like you're at
the Mash Hospital. Make it more Hollywood, don't remember I
did drama in primary schools.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Is there ever a scenario where like one thing that
stands out for me as advice that I've heard other
mums give each other is that if you want to
have an epidural, you got to ask for it early.
You don't want to have a scenario where you're like,
I like the epidural please, and I go, actually, you're
too far gone, it's too late. Because I know you
mentioned that you don't get involved in involved in the
(23:42):
medical side of things. Is there ever a case where
you say to that your client, like, if you want
your epidural, you should request it now.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
I don't think I've ever said that.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
I try not to actually offer any pain relief, Like
a lot of the people that I'm working with don't
want that either, like they want to have a more
natural physiological experience. Of course, when I hear a client
that we've had a discussion about epidurals, when I hear
them say like I want an epi durol, I'm like, great,
Like she wants an epi driol, and we kind of
make it happen. I wouldn't ever offer it because I
think that's kind of almost a sign that you think
(24:14):
that they can't do it or they're not handling it.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yea.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
So I kind of like try not.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
To ever offer pain relief because I believe that they
can do it without it until they ask for it themselves.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeah, because you could imagine being in that vulnerable state
and you're going, I think you should. Yeah, your emotions
are so probably so heightened right there that yeah, you could.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
It could be a bit traumatic. I spose and I
had a.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Midwife do that to me in my first birth, and
this is the one that I want to have, the
beautiful water birth. And when I was like, oh, this
is really hard, she just like, have some gas, and
I was like.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
I love gas, Like send me off, like you know,
that's the only reason I go to the dentist, like
the gas.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
So when she said that, I was like, oh, I
feel like a bit of a drug addict, like hook
me up. And that just started like that menu of
pain relief for me. So yeah, I try not to
try not to offer it.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I get that it was so good too.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I'm understanding more of the role of a dueler and
tell me if this is way off here, But it
kind of feels like you're almost like a supportive parent.
So that's been there before.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah, is that?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Am I kind of getting on the right track? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Can you give me examples of where when you're at
birth in the delivery suite, and what ways do you
support your patient.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
So lots of different ways. One is just being close.
I know it sounds really weiry, but we call it
holding space. So it's really just being kind of a
bodyguard of the area to make sure that that kind
of bubble doesn't get popped, whether it's like unwanted interruptions
and that kind of thing and unwanted questions. It's always
nice to have a handhold. Like people often be like, oh,
(25:52):
dolors are just handholders. I'm like, well, you've never had
your handheld.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Really good, because it's so nice to have your.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Handheld and just to like know that someone is there
and that has been through it and that knows that
you can do it. And then there's all the physical
side of things, So the hip squeezes, the acupressure, the positions,
the helping babies turn positions when maybe they might be posterior,
and trying to encourage them to turn around, encouraging different
forms of pain relief. So we've got showers, we've got
(26:18):
birth balls, birth comes, tens, machines, there's so many ways
you can support. And then the other one would just
be like advocating, so you know, either if it's buying
them more time and.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Then once delivered, yes, are you like, well.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
They got to get home for bedtime.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
No.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
I usually stay like up to maybe two hours after
the baby's born. Definitely like love to step back and
let mom and dad have their moment meeting their their
baby and trying to take some photos and videos and
stuff for them, And then I kind of will often
go out and make mum like a nice cup of
like chicken sleep or broth or like you know, is
it natural organic, So they've got these powders, they're really good,
(26:58):
and I make them broth and come back and make
sure that they're doing well having their skin to skin
and that Sometimes I can help latch, you know, if
they want a breastfeed, and make sure that mum's got
everything that she needs for either that night or to
go home. Sometimes I'm helping you have a shower and
then making sure she's all tucked up and happy and
save and well.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
The hospital can be a pretty isolating place depending on
It's so different every day, right, Like I remember just
being like people in and out in and out in
and out in and out, and it must be really
comforting for mums to be that take up a dueler
to have someone there all the time if they want
them there all the time to help them with those
(27:37):
things that they're and not feel isolated.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Do you get that as a response from people. Yeah?
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
And sometimes if mums have an unexpected like stay in hospital,
they're staying a few days that they didn't expect to.
Sometimes I'll bring supplies from home or make sure that
they've got some food, bring them food to the hospital
so that they're not eating a cheese sandwich and a
dry wee bigs, you know. So yeah, it's nice to
have a friendly face when you're in there for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
And then do you then still stay in contact with
them when they've returned home if they have had a
hospital state. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
So a lot of my packages have you know, six
weeks postpartum care in them as well.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
So I'll come over postpartum, make mum food.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
And make sure she's well and sitting down because they
always bloody get up. And when I come around, I
want you in bed, I want your hair and a mumbum.
I want you covered in breast milk like I want
you just looking like shit.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Basically, I come around, they.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Always look amazing and I'm like, yeah, yeah, they never
listened to me.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
In those post visits. My wife suffered from postpartum depression
pretty badly. Do you lend an air for those people?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Absolutely, And just being someone that they can talk to
without judgment, you know, and not try and be that
toxic positivity that a lot of like people get in
the newborn stage.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Like isn't it amazing? And yeah, it is, but it's
also can be really hard sometimes.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Yeah, and just on that as well, like knowing where
the red flags are someone can't recognize it in themselves
and being able to then refer on if I think
that it's beyond my scope as a dueler, and I
think that they might need more support and more clinical
care or clinical supervision so that you can get onto
it early.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Real mother, hen vibe, you're there for the whole process
and then after the process for you to go in
six weeks later, and then also lend an air And
that must be really powerful for a lot of women.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
So yeah, and it's nice to be around there. They
often call being a duela like mothering the mother. It's
nice because you've got this baby that is sucking everything
out of you.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
You're recovering from birth and now you're feeding the baby.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
You're not getting any sleep, and then to have someone
come over and make sure that you're okay so that
you can do that again tomorrow is like just fills
your cut back up for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
When you look at all the births that you've been
involved in, when you look at the dads, what advice
can you give? And this may be not just for us,
but for any dads to be that are listening and
they're thinking, how can I help not only during pregnancy
but during birth and postpartum. What's the best advice you
can give?
Speaker 5 (30:05):
The best advice is in pregnancy. Please listen to the
podcast that she's sending you. Yeah, like you've got to
be on the same educational journey that she's on because
a lot of the time pregnancy we go through this.
You know, I've got to learn all this stuff, I've
got a prep for birth, and then dads kind of
just continue on their life because it's not happening to
(30:27):
their body right, So it's hard to sometimes connect with that,
especially if it's your first. So listen to the podcast
go to the course, try to stay awake a time,
try not to stream sports while you.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And you turn out alright, all right, yeah, I've got
a whole podcast on parenting now, so.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
So yeah, go on the educational journey with her, because
when when she's in birth and when she's in labor land,
she's actually not in that brain anymore. So you kind
of have to be her brain for her. In birth,
whatever she says goes right. So like if she says,
you know, it's time to go to the hospital, or
I want to do this, or I need this, I
want this, you kind of got to be like, yes,
(31:13):
I believe in you. I believe you can, and I'm
listening to what you say, you know, because instinct is
so powerful in birth, so we need to like really
tune into what she's saying because a lot of the time,
like in labor, you can't really form full sentences. It's
hard to get your words out. So when she does
say something, we need to listen.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Because I feel quite redundant in the birthing suite obviously,
Like if Laura asks for anything, then I'm like straight
onto it is anything unprompted or proactive that a partner
should be aware of in the birthing suite. Yep.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Absolutely, So the first thing I would say is always
be physically close to her. So if she's going to
the toilet, you're going to the toilet with her. If
she wants to get in the shower, you're holding the
shower jets with her. If she's getting in the bath,
you're sitting by the bath. Always being really physically close
because you are the most important person to her in
that room. You know, even if you have a dueler,
(32:03):
nothing will replace the love that you guys have for
each other. And love is what it sounds like, It's
really beautiful. Love is what we need to make contractions happen.
Right That oxytocin hormone is what is going to power labor.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
So she needs you really close.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
So even if you don't know what to say, just
being there and even holding her hand is like enough.
If she's ever saying things like I can't do it anymore,
I'm so tired, rather than saying like, yeah, let's get
you an epidural, baby, look tired, we really want to
say like turn it into an affirmation of like I
know you can do this. You've prepared for this you're
(32:35):
so strong, and like hearing that from your partner is
like like gives all of those like oxytocin vibes so encouragement.
And then if she's really saying she can't do it anymore, distraction,
So let's switch it up. So even if you to
make like a triangle in the birth suite of like
you know, the bed up on its highest level so
that she can lean up against it, the shower and
(32:56):
the bath, if you just move between those three stations
in the hospital, just keep distracting her.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
You're by yourself so much time.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I have a flashback to when I got really hungry
and I have to go down to the get a sandwich.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Oh my god, so not physically close.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah. And on that note, is there is there anything
that dads shouldn't do? Does anything stick out that you've
seen or heard of where you're like, that's like that's
a no brainer, but don't do it.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
The first thing that comes to me, Yeah, I've heard
your birth story, so I know that. The first thing
that came to mind was if you drive a big truck.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Like check that it goes in the car park of
the hospital, Please please, like do a drive by in
the birth suite, I would say, like, is there anything
that you can't do? Is like, please don't be on
your phone, even if you think.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Before you're fucking streaming in the birth class, it's different.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
You got it out of business mainly did the day
out or yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:02):
Like even when you're hiding it, you know, like at
school when you think that, like the teacher can't see
you on your phone and they because they so can.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
You flash they can't yeh.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
Try not to call your mom, you know while birth
is happening. Yeah, let's wait for the placenta to be
born before you do that, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And then postpartum, I think that's a time where a
lot of partners feel a bit redundant because Bubba's so
attached to mom. What's your advice on how they can
be a standout individual.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Or stand out individual?
Speaker 5 (34:30):
I would say, if you've if this is your first baby,
please be with her in the nighttime. So nighttime feeds
is a real like whack to the system.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Your hormones are going crazy.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
So even if you feel like you can't do much,
even just being with her and sitting up with her
in bed and like being a support, like what do
you need me to grab? Changing the nappy after the
feed and being there for those night feeds can help
make her feel less alone.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
And then if you could.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
Encourage her and be supportive of her really resting and
I mean really resting, like treat her like a in
those two weeks, even if you could like ideally six,
but like it's unrealistic for a lot of people to.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Be doing that.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
So if you could give it two weeks of just
like being a doting dad and a doting husband, well said,
that would be amazing. You're making sure that she's staying
in bed, she's staying warm, she's sped, she's showered and
has unhydrated well, and he's encouraged to be in bed
with the baby's skin to skin. If you have other kids,
(35:29):
really doing what you can to take those other kids
away so that she has wanting time with the newborn,
because she's probably going to feel like her heart is
split in For Laura's case.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Three, Yeah, that was one of the biggest regrets that
we have is once Lola was born, coming home as
quickly as we could, and then having it's so so
hard because Marley was eighteen months and they don't understand.
And this time around, Laura is like, I will stay
in that hospital bed for as long as a bloody can.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
It's a holiday with a newborn, yeah, and it's a
bit divide and conquering those days if you've got other kids,
so it can kind of feel like you know you've yeah,
you're with your newborn, your partners with the other kid.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
So just making time to connect with her as well.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I remember some of the some advice I got given
was but for those nighttime feeds is just just don't
say anything to her, just.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Be there, Just be there and do it.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
If she says can you get me some water, don't
even say yes, just go and do it, because yes
could come out as like an attitude.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You're both tired, exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I remember as a new dad first time, I put
so much pressure on myself to be up all the
time that it made us both tired the whole time
and too tired.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
People don't equal a fully rested person. But I was
always felt like the pressure to do so. But then
I was like, Okay, well I'm going to do it,
but I'm not going to say anything.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
So then she can look across the dark room and
I'm there, but only if she needs me to do something.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And then, you know, sometimes i'd fall asleep.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Sorry, you can't help it, slippery, come far across the room,
wake up.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
And then you've obviously been through many births. Do you
know the exact number of how many you've been involved in?
Speaker 4 (37:05):
I did count it for you. We're up to thirty four.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Now, wow, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
How are you here to celebrate the fiftieth drink? Are
there any births? Yeah, that stand out for you as
being the most memorable? Oh? Yes.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
It was actually a good friend of mine that I
met through my mother's group. I'm now fully identified her
as well. Anyway, she says, will you Abby, will you
be my dueler for our second? And I thought this,
this is incredible, Like I'd love to. So it happened
around Christmas time and I was working in radio at
the time, so we had this like big Christmas Carol's event,
and as an on call dueler, and like working big events,
(37:44):
you're kind of like it's a little bit stressful. So yeah,
I'm like wearing my freaking glitters Christmas outfit. Fuck, And
I'm thinking I think she might have been like thirty
nine weeks or something, and we're messaging in this group
chat of this mother's group, and Abby says, I'm going
to go for a walk. I'm gonna walk this baby out.
And I'm like, how can you not, because like I'm
at this event. And one of our other friends in
(38:05):
mother's group sends her an excerpt of like fifty Shades
of Gray and it's like this will get that, this will
get the juices going.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
And I'm like, how dare you like like the audio
of it, like like a screenshot of the like Kindle
book or something like, you know, the passage of my
giant pulsetting member, you know, like like yeah, like real smart.
And I'm like, god, like doesn't work. Well, yeah, you
know that's it right. I'm thinking anyway, she's going for
(38:34):
a walk.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
Then I get, like maybe an hour later, I get
this message from her husband saying, hey, like she's having
some like contractions.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
I think we might be on And I'm like, da,
do you haven't in my hand?
Speaker 5 (38:47):
I'm like, I'm going to use this when my next
mum gets to forty two weeks. You know, screenshots, smartfolder,
It's the work I sweat. So I'm like, ship, I
better go. So I I go up to work and
I'm like, hey, like I think a baby's coming, Like.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
I got to run. They're like, just go do what
you need to do. Totally got out of the pack
out pack down for the event, perfect so much. I
run home.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
I message my husband Phil be like can you get
my dueler bag ready?
Speaker 4 (39:12):
And like my T shirt or like whatever I gotta
get changed I could have like here's a Christmas mirror.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I run home.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Luckily they don't live far from me, Like I'm I'm speeding,
like I got out of the car park.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
I'm speeding home.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
I get a message saying her waters have just broken,
like babies coming, and I'm like fuck, So I like
grab my bag, Hey Phil, Hey girls, like mommy's got
to go, like help the babies. I run out the
door and I go into the house the husband's mother,
and mother's sitting on the couch downstairs.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
And she's like hello Alice, and I was like, Hi,
like go upstairs, go into the bedroom.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
Abby's in the bathroom and she's she's roaring at this stage,
and I was like, wow, you doing so amazing, like
you're doing so well and try and just like bring
the bring the pressure down a bit, bring the anxiety down.
And she's going and I'm thinking like okay, like her
waters are broken. All the signs are pointing to like
this baby's coming soon. And she says like I was
(40:09):
like okay, Harry, like you know, listen to those words, Harry,
like let's get the.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Car going, like we need to go. And Harry's like yes, yes, yes,
yes yes. Then I hear like this real like beddown.
She says, we're not going to make it.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
And I was like, okay, Harry, we're not gonna make it.
Can you call an ambulance? So Harry is like yeap, cool.
So we get on the phone to ambulance and I'm like,
you're gonna be okay, let's sit on the toilet because
I know that that's like can relax the pelvic floor.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
She's doing so.
Speaker 5 (40:38):
Well breathing this you know baby, and the ambulance is
on the phone.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I said, you can pop it on loud speaker.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
And these ambulance like paramedics are following this script right
like they don't they don't really know, they don't not
know birth, but they following this script that they have
to do. And so it's like put her on her back,
is can you see the baby's head? And so poor
Harry is going, hey, babe, can you get on your back?
Speaker 4 (40:59):
And she's like no oh, and I'm like no, we're
not getting on the back. Like the baby's like coming.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
And it doesn't just for anyone listening, if this happens,
it doesn't change the fact that they're sending an ambulance.
It's just like the triage on the phone, yep. And
so she's got here. The lady's going like can you
see your head? And poor Harry's like trying to like
get back there and like see if he can see
his head.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
And I'm like, Harry like trying to swalloway his hands.
Speaker 5 (41:19):
Like you can't do a vaginal exam on her, you know,
like this this baby's starting to crown. So the ambulance
turns up. But we've got a head, like this head
is coming. So I'm filming.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
We're in the bathroom, like on the tiles on the floor,
get some.
Speaker 5 (41:31):
Towels, going. Harry's sort of in front. I'm like you
can hang up now on the ambulance. Paramedics are waiting
outside and a couple of pushes later, like Harry's picked
up his baby and like looking at this baby. And
then I said, put it on mum's chest and so
he passed it to Abby and Abby's holding his baby
and she's like, oh my gosh, like I've just had
this baby at home, Like I've got shivers telling it now,
(41:54):
like so incredible. I've got it all on film and
it was just amazing. And these paramedics are out out
side and I was like, do you guys want to
come in?
Speaker 4 (42:02):
They're like, oh no, you guys have got this, and
I'm like, what turns out?
Speaker 5 (42:06):
When the paramedics arrived, Harry's mum said, oh yeah, they're
upstairs with the midwife. So these paramedics were like, oh,
we're sweet here. So like I said, I'm like, I'm
not a midwife, like I'm a duela. Like I'm not
sure for this, you know.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
So they came in and yeah, she was.
Speaker 5 (42:21):
She was perfect. Happy they had a little girl. They
already had a boy.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
So this was a very exciting moment.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
And it sounds great, but I would not.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
Want that to know, like call Harry the midman now,
because he did. He did such a good job.
Speaker 5 (42:35):
So delivered his baby on the bathroom floor of their
freshly renovated bathroom. So we got like, so they go
off to hospital. I'm like staying to Harry's. Can you
start like cleaning the tiles? Like I don't want to stay.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
You've mentioned that you do have some toys with you.
We're not going to do it on the podcast, but
we have a tense machine, so we're going to experience yep,
close to what later may feel like or me. We'll
figure it out.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
Well, you can do half half at the same time,
so who can handle more?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, there we go Like that, we go. So we're
not going to do it on the podcast episode, but
if you do want to watch this, it'll be on
our socials. Alice, thank you so much for joining us today.
We are going to now get into the tense machine. Yes,
so Ash, prepare yourself. I'm assuming it's going to be intense.
So there is, there is, there is. It's been a pleasure.
(43:27):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Thanks for coming. We really appreciate you giving us all the.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Information about doers because I had no idea really what what.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
A dealer is. So thank you.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
You're welcome, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I'm annoyed that we didn't start this podcast before I
had kids, which obviously wouldn't have worked because you can't
do a parony podcast without kids.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Don't think you'd be called two Doting dads with no kids?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, correct, unless go on to doting dog dads.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Well, I just think I know so much more now
that what a shame.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
It's for your next marriage.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
My current wife is Thrill.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Review, share, share, and join and us on social media
either TikTok, Instagram or Facebook.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
There is a group.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Just search two Doting Dads and you will find it.
I have to warn people though, when you search two
Doting Dads, if you're like me, the algorithm is like, ah,
you want gay content? Is that? Haven't anyone else?
Speaker 3 (44:35):
What else?
Speaker 1 (44:35):
That's my excuse?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
You put you You typed in two gay dads.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Didn't you love this shit? I typed it into pornharb
and I was like.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Oh whoops, not again speaking about porn harbit. It's time
I go.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Sorry, I'll see you next time. Two Doting Dads podcast
acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and connections
to Land sea and community.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present,
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate Islander
peoples today
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