June 29, 2025 • 46 mins
Sophie Walker, host of Australian Birth Stories is here to talk all things birth, babies and what comes after.
Sophie shares the realities of postpartum recovery (aka “the cliff no one warns you about”), what partners can actually do to support mums in those blurry early weeks, and the time her baby went 10 days without a poo.
Whether you’re expecting baby number one or three, this one’s full of honest advice and a reminder that no one really has it all figured out.
Buy The Complete Guide to Postpartum by Sophie Walker here: https://amzn.asia/d/ebw1XIo
BUY OUR SMELLY T SHIRTS HERE
https://www.twodotingdads.com/category/all-products
Buy our book, which is now available in-store!
https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552
If you need a shoulder to cry on:
Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Excuse me, Ashton, I don't know why I was English.
Then excuse me, young Chap. Yes, do you remember anything
from Oscar or, let's say Macy's birth?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I do recall fainting, okay, anything else. I recall stepping
over a large turd. That was April.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Beautiful memory. I know that you should.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Actually want to remember the important parts.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Well, I don't really either, but I feel like I'm
going to really give this third birth a red hot.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Crack well man, good thing. We have the host of
Australian Birth Stories, Sophie Walker, on the podcast to remind
us the in the outs of pregnancy, birth and of
course postpartum.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Since twenty seventeen, she's had over five hundred birth stories
from women and from women and men all across the country.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Which had about the big gaps in birth education, the
pressures on partners, and what we really need to prepare
for post pardon, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mom.
I am Maddie Jay.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
And I'm Ash and I'm Sophie Walker.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
And this is.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Birds are just going nuts right now, Birds are birding.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good,
it is the bad and the relatable. And we don't
give advice, but you maybe, yes, one of the most
intelligent guests we have ever had.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I would say so two books we've written one it's
not very intelligent, Ei, though we did have ast.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
There is a question that we start. We're going to
put you on the spot. Yes, we can edit this
out if you don't want to answer it. Let's go
way back to when you were a child. Do you
recall the naughtiest thing you ever did?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Oh, yes, great, great, we might have to edit this.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Do you know so we've got a very blended family.
We're a bit of a brady bunch. And I have
a step brother who returned home from staying at his
mother's with two pet rats. Okay, and I killed them.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Quick cut that out. It was an accident.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Surely, well the Peter will come for me, now, weren't they? No,
it was intentional.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Can I just how old rough we were? Six? Okay?
All right, okay, okay, that's good. With passive period where
you can.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Be persecuted for that, we've really gone off on.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, no, very good.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Do I dare how the rats died?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Let's not. Let's not.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Good start.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I was like, we can't have pet rats and my
mum was really upset and I was like, I'll just
get rid of that.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Do you remember what the punishment was for that?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
No? I don't remember. I was like, yeah, do you
think no one knows it was me?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well they do now, if it makes you feel any better.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
We have a show called the Ecker, which is like
the Eastern Show and Brisbane. My sister won a goldfish.
I don't think I killed the goldfish, but the goldfish
they die pretty quick, and she buried it and I
thought I thought it would be like a fossil. I thought,
how cool to look at the bones. So I dug
it up.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
You guys are fucked up and I got in a
lot of trouble and I was like, I was just inquisitive.
I wanted to see the bones of the fish.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
The worst thing I ever did was befriend apossum.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
And that's it. Didn't even kill it.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
The dog's next door killed it, and I cried, that's
about it. But I've never I can successfully.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Can I just say we had ashes.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Mum on recently talked about him being in prison jail
holding cell anyway, so he's lying. Okay, befriended a possum.
You've been in jail, so just that's the only time
you know that I've been in jail.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Starving so lowly.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
From me, and I think it's a really good place
to start. You might as well start at the bottom.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's an interesting next question because I didn't expect your
first answer.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I don't know where that.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Came from, but wasn't I wasn't expecting to start with murder.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Did you always want to be a mum?
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I feel like I need to reframe my first answer.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yeah, very good, very good.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
I did always want to be am my murderer's tendency maybe.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
A six year old child's on them.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Okay, I did always want to be a mum, and
I kind of I always wanted to be a midwife, really,
which is weird that I didn't actually take that turn
after school. But yeah, I always saw myself wanting to
be a mum. And I was the first at any
family event to be like, oh, hold the baby. I'll
hold the baby from a really young age, so I've
always been into it.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I was the opposite.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I'm like, was there someone who introduced you to Midwiffree.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
No, well, I didn't sort of study, but I've ended
up in this space now kind of just always gravitated
towards that nurturing side and wanting to take care of kids,
and I really look forward to the first opportunity of
like having my own and having my turn and doing
it all very maternal.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, yeah, very cool. And how I mean your first.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Child was I got three boys?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah, you got three boys?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Again, what's the eldest names Nick?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
And he's eleven, and then I've got Louis who's nine
and Otti is six.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well in the parent hierarchy, you are much higher than Madam.
I more seasoned for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I didn't know there was such a gap between the
birth of your podcast and the birth of your first child,
but that is how the idea came about for the podcast.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Yeah, so I had I had a really difficult first birth,
and then I had a really great second birth, and
I made the podcast after the second birth. So it's like,
it can be really wonderful and let's kind of celebrate
and explore that. And that's when the podcast slotted in.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I know you've spoken about this many times, but for
anyone who's not familiar with your birth story for your first,
can you explain when you say it wasn't a great birth?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
What went wrong? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
So I went into that berth really confident because I
had that vibe of like, I can do this, like
bring on the challenge of contractions. And my husband has
ADHD and he's very sporty, and he was like, it's fine,
we'll just cover the contractions, we'll train for it, we'll
be fine. When so we were both really confident, in cocky,
really and I was like, I don't need drugs. I'm
just going to do it. I actually went into I
(06:31):
think it's about forty weeks and I went in. I
already had an appointment scheduled and I think I think
I was having contractions in the night. So I said
to the midwife, Oh, can you check me. I might
be in labor. And she checked me and she said,
you're five centimeters. I was like, huh, I'm halfway and
I haven't even raised a sweat. And she said, you're
going to have a baby this afternoon. You better go
home and have a sleep. And we were like, yeah,
we knew we had this. Thirty six hours later, I
(06:53):
was screaming for all the drugs. So I just well,
they used the term failure to progress. I got stuck
at five cent to meet us for a really long time,
and we did the pacing and the coaching and the
tens machine that I know you guys have tested out.
We're doing all of that, so we know exactly what
you've been through, exactly you have simulated that pain.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Do they know why that happens?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, it's a bit tricky to know. I got to
a point where they said, well, we need to put
the drugs in to induce you and speed up the
later because it's not progressing. And it turns out that
my first was four point four kilos, so he was
pretty big.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I'm going to be really stupid and I'm sorry me too.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Go what's normal? Yeah, average is kind of like three
point four okay, wow, kind of Yeah, it was significantly larger.
It would have known, No, they didn't, which is funny
because then they were worried with my other two babies
that they were going to be big, and they they weren't.
They were smaller.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Can I ask you about you mentioned something their failure
to progress? Now, how did it feel when they said that.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, there's so many terms in the birth space and
motherhood space I think as well fatherhood than a negative
like that. There's failure to progress, even miscarriage, like you've
done it wrong, you're not progressing, you're not pushing, you
need all these interventions, which we're trying to like dispel
and use more positive language. Even people still use like
natural birth. There's this unnatural birth, and I mean every
(08:18):
mode of birth is natural. We sort of talk about
cesarians as belly births rather than vaginal births, but we're
trying to do away with all that negative connotation.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, as soon as you said that, I was like,
it just has such like a negative And yeah, when
it's sort of out.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Of your control exactly and you're doing your best, and
of course you want your baby to come out. No
one's like actively even with the cervix, well, you've failure
to progress. Incompetent cervix is another term. Oh my goodness,
you know, like you're just so netive.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
That's pretty much what you.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Again, something you've got no physical control over. But I
more or less got to the point where I said,
can I have an epidural? And then his heart rate
dropped and they need to use forceps, and I had
a post putum hemorrhage and it all just kind of
went pear shape for a really crazy five minutes. My
mum was there and my sister was there taking photos
and I yelled at her put down your camera and
hold up my leg, and my mom ran out of
(09:13):
the room. She was just like, this is too much.
My little boy came out and he was blue and unresponsive,
so that was a hectic few minutes, but he came
around really quickly, and then they managed me really quickly.
But I was just like, what the hell.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I was not expecting not expecting it when you're in
that situation where baby comes out blue in the chaos
of it all, I know you kind of zone out
towards that point of childbirth, But are you panicked? Are
you Are you aware of the stress and that those
types of emotions.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yeah, And I actually can still recall losing the blood.
I thought I was dying and I just said, just
go to johnno, just go and be with the baby
because I'm pretty much dying. And it was all like
that sounds really extreme, and it was in the time,
but it was really quickly and then everyone's like, no,
the baby's fine, We've controlled the bleeding. You're good now,
like just put the baby on the breast, and I
(10:06):
was like oh, And I felt terrible and I was
like depleted from so I lost nine hundred mills and
anything over a liter is considered a postpartum hemorrhage. But
if you think of a leader of milk, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Of blood, a leader of water.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
If you will take you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
So it was really stressful for everyone and my husband John.
I thought that the baby and me were going to die,
so I was traumatic for the family as well. But
I guess fast forward to the next berth, I still
was like, Okay, I want a second go at this,
and I really immersed myself in birth education and looking
at other possibilities of birth because I think I just
went in going I don't need drugs and it'll be fine,
(10:42):
and they said I'll have a baby in the next
four hours and it's easy. And so I went the
next time around like I'm going to absorb every single
way that this can unfold. So nothing catches me by surprise.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Is there anything with the education that you had leading
up to the second child? Is there anything about your
first birth that you go, oh, I wish I knew this,
or I wish I'd done this differently.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
One of the biggest shifts was instead of like going
contractions coming and like literally going, oh, I just got
to get through the next one minute, I went the
opposite and I was like, Okay, contraction's coming. I'm going
to like release the tension as much as possible and
literally let the body move their baby kind of move
down and encourage that process, the physiology of birth, and
(11:24):
work with it rather than against it. And I think
I had like a five hour berth with my second
and he was a kilo smaller, So I think that helps.
And you've done it before and all your muscles have
done it before. But I really kind of worked with
the process instead of against it. And I think it's
instinctual when you feel pain to go for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Were I'm just on the Tannes machine in particular, really
worked against the pain.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
For a while because you.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Really grounded yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I really ground myself, really felt like I was in
my natural element, and then all of a sudden, I
was like.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It was tough.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I just want to jump back the days and maybe
the week's leading after the first birth. Yeah, I mean,
where was your headspace after that? It was obviously the unexpected.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, we were in a kind of unusual situation at
the time because we hadn't really planned to have a
baby then, and we were both living at my parents'
house and we were both trying to finish master's degrees,
so it wasn't like the best time to fall pregnant.
And my mum wanted to sell the family home and
she's like, well, we can't sell it now because you're pregnant.
So I came home to a pretty great situation. Bum
(12:30):
was cooking for me and then they were like it
was first grandchild, So they were hovering around our bedroom
door in the morning, go can we hold the baby?
Can we hold the baby? So I could go and
have a shower, and we had heaps of support, really,
but I think, like my mum was saying, oh, I
think you know the fontanelle, the soft bit on the
top of the head. I think he's fontanelle's going in.
I don't think you're feeding him enough. I think you
should give him boiled water. And I was like, Mum,
nobody does that anymore? Like that, you don't know we're
(12:52):
talking about, yeah, put something in a bottle. So there
was a little bit of that tension, but generally we
had really great support and I had midwifree group care,
so I had a known midwife throughout the pregnancy, the birth,
and the postpartum and she was coming to the home
and checking everything and supporting me. So I had like
the best possible kind of setup, and yet I still
(13:13):
felt physically really depleted. I had because I had an episiotomy.
I had a lot of stitches and swelling, and I
actually had a prolapse. So I don't know if you're
familiar with that. We're throwing those words around all the time.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Now I'm assuming a prolapse is I don't know what
that is, okay, So it's when you know, so you
have your pelvic floor as a woman that holds all
the organs in at the bottom and when you're pushing,
and the weight that the pregnancy can stretch those muscles,
so things can kind of fall not fall out, but
there's laxity in those muscles, right, So you can have
(13:46):
in continence issues or you can have just like a
heaviness and things like that.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
So you need to see a woman's health, physio and
get support. So I had those things going on, which
leads to like lower back pain and stuff, and still
navigating feeding and all the challenges for the first time
mum got through, but emotionally, once I got through thinking
about the birth and just going what the hell was that,
I kind of shelved that until I was pregnant again
to like reassess the birth process. And I really enjoyed
(14:10):
being a mum and I really had a really easy
breastfeeding journey, so I felt really positive about that.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
We have to give you a big round of applause.
I'd give you like a Donnor for the audio, because
since twenty seventeen, you've created an absolute behemoth of a podcast.
It is incredible what you've done, and we found out
before we started recording that you still do a lot
of it on your own.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I think people really underestimate how much work is involved
in a podcast. People think you just rock up and
you chat for a bit.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
And that's it. Yeah, so well done.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
You had the birth of your second child, which was
opposite to your first, But then how do you make
the connection between those situations to then go I want
to start a podcast.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Well, I was listening to a lot of podcasts at
the time, and it was Yeah, in twenty seventeen, there
weren't many. It wasn't like what it is today. But
I was listening to heaps and work part time in
cancer research. That's what I was doing. And I was
chatting to a friend. We did a lot of like
envelope stuffing and things for research. She's like, you should
just do your own podcast, and I was like, oh,
who listened to mine? Just like, doesn't even matter. Just
(15:11):
like record yours and a few friends, which is what
I did initially. And I seriously thought, like I was
working and I had kids and things. I didn't think
it would become a business or anything like that. And
I literally did. So the first episode is me, the
next month's my sister, then a few close friends, and
I was like, can you Apparently with podcasts you've got
to keep the momentum. So tomorrow I'm coming over and
we'll record your birth story. And everyone likes to tell
(15:32):
their birst story, so they're like sure, but now they're like,
can you actually take my episode down? I didn't realize
millions of people.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I haven't.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
I was like, no, it's I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I'm just.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
So yeah, it's funny, but I've been doing it. So
we've done five hundred and fifty episodes now and started
to share real variety of birth experiences and postpartum experiences,
and I think people enjoyed kind of seeing that as well.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, people like to hear that other people have gone
through things as well. I wasn't really aware of all
the different variations of and what can happen. Do you
think it's benefiting in terms of what people can expect
in every situation?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
And I think we have, Like some people find out
they're pregnant and just kind of want to block their
ears and not hear any of it. And so we've
got like a starting point of his five positive birth
experiences to get you started. Have listened, and then hopefully
throughout your nine months of preparing, you'll gradually listen to
things that have had been a little bit more challenging.
Because I know people have messaged me saying, oh, thank god,
(16:35):
I listened to Claire's episode because she asked for this
and I asked for that. And so they're just sort
of putting a few extra things in their toolkits. Along
the way, and I think, yeah, their first hand account
saying that really helped.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Is there one that stands out as being the most
surprising that you've heard on the podcast?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
One of them that was a bit more interesting was
a same sex couple where the other partner, who didn't
carry the child, was able to induce lactations, so they
both breastfed the baby even though one of them carried
the baby.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Again, when I'm like, we don't know how many variations
and how what can happen? There's one never straight off
the bat men could do that.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Assume it was two women.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Yeah, you literally don't have the biology for it. And
every woman's like, imagine how good that would be. You're like,
the two am feed, you just elbow the other one fifty.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Fifty heavens, and we don't have that ability. That is
such an amazing I just didn't know. Sorry, and my
mind's a little bit blining abound.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And is there any stories when you look at the
spectrum of those being difficult births that sticks out as
being one that was traumatic for you to listen to.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Yeah, quite a few of them because we do everything
from like a textbook water birth with no drugs and
everyone that's euphuic through to stillbirth where the baby hasn't
survived or an infant loss. So we we really do
the full spectrum. And at the beginning they're titled as such,
and at the beginning, I'll say this episode contains the following.
If you don't feel ready to listen to it, then
(18:08):
stop now. So we're very respectful of that. And yet
those episodes still get a lot of people listening because
not only is it beneficial for someone to share it
and in a cathartic experience, but other people that have
been through that sort of such a unique and harrowing
journey want to listen to other people how they navigated it.
(18:29):
And then we've also got a lot of people listening
who want to support friends and family, or we've also
got it's now certified professional development for midwives to listen
to the podcast as part of their training, so they
can listen because you need to do a certain number
of births before you're qualified, but to be able to
listen to first hand accounts on mass they can use
(18:51):
that as accreditation, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Do you find that when you have people reaching out
that are they aren't parents yet but they're thinking about
whether they want to be parents, and they've listened to
a few stories and they've sort of built up a
bit of an anxiety around it.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Usually not anxiety. They sort of are starting to get
excited and they're doing all their homework and I feel
like they're like the gold the A plus students. They're
startying their head because I think depending on what model
of care you want and things like that, you do
need to know straight away to advocate for that. And
if they've done their research and know what they want,
then they're halfway there for that. So yeah, it's definitely exciting,
(19:27):
perhaps more so skewed to like Midwiffree and student duelers
and things listening and then they're ready at their point.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I feel like I'm a bit of a sponge right now.
We are expecting our baby, our third baby, in September.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
So exciting, and I think now more.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Than ever, I'm a lot more keen to understand all
potential situations. Going back to some of the stories that
you've told, is the one that sticks with you the most.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
I kind of think my favorite, one of my favorite
episodes is with my sister because I was her and
I'd had three kids at that point, and I was
supporting her.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
You're the expert.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Well I thought I was, but then when you're in there,
and I think when you've got that emotional connection. So
it really made me sort of see what it's like
to support someone. And she was saying, I don't think
I can do it, and I was thinking, I don't
think you can either. I didn't say that, and I
was like, oh my god, Yeah, that really has to
come out. And when you're at that angle, it looks
totally different when you're looking down.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
You're doing Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I was like, just like squort a bit more. And
afterwards I was like, I don't know. I think perhaps
I was using all the techniques and stories. I was like,
I think you need to go to the toilet now,
now get on the ball, now get on the bed,
and do the squad. And then her midwife was like
fine and let me boss her around and it went
really well and it was a great experience, and I
actually caught her baby.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yeah, which is funny because I caught her daughter and
she is like a no touch person. I was like,
I caught you a birth, and she won't give me
a hug.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Now, oh wow.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Out of the five hundred or so stories, how many
of them had a fainting partner in it?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
I think a few. Yes, you're one of them.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I've got two kids. Firstborn very when in routinely she
went into labor contractions, fine, same thing, sort of he
was spine to spine, and we sort of ended up
being in there for like forty eight hours before it
turned into an emergency sea section. I was completely fine
through the whole thing. I just step over a bit
of pooh. That was probably the hardest part, but like
(21:30):
I was sort of I felt calm and collected in
the moment when she needed me to be there. But
then with my second child, it was a planned C section,
like booking into a hotel in this instance, and we
were both like, this is so much more calm, and
we know what to expect. They tell us what we're doing.
We're in scrubs, it's all happening this morning. I'm staring
(21:50):
my wife as she's sitting on the side of the
bed and she's getting an epidural. I can't see anything.
I didn't see the needle. Bo I'm out, I remember, thankfully.
I was sort of crouched down, sitting holding her hands,
just being there in the moment with her and trying
to be if she was scared, trying to take on
(22:12):
some of that for her, and it all came a
little bit overwhelming for me, and I fainted, and I
remember waking up with my legs in the air with
a flannel on my face and.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Pants were off as well.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yes, that's still unexplained.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
We'll get to the bottom flap. And I'm holding.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
A juice box and I look up and my wife's
laying down getting ready for a plant c section, and
she just goes, of course, she'd make it all about you.
And there's all the nurses and everyone around taking photos
of me flat on my back with my legs up
in the air, and I'm not I'm excited to tell
this story because I'm usually not allowed to tell this
(22:52):
story because I've told it too many times and Mats,
can you just cool it? But today I'm yeah, yeah,
so I recovered and I was I'm so pleased.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Have you had any stories that have a similar situation
to that.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
Yeah, I think it's quite common, and I think, well,
I think the big point of difference for like the
birthing woman is going through all the hormones and everything,
and you go into this other world where it's quite
different for the birth support person because they're present and
they're seeing their child that's being born and their partner
go through all those things. So I think you're in
kind of you're almost on different planets.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, I was kind of like when they pull both
kids out and they're screaming, it's like, put it back
feel my friends have fainted. Actually, one he took a
peek midway through and sort of got a bit woozy
and he moved off towards the corner of the delivery
suite and he fainted, hit the corner of the wall,
(23:50):
started to slide down, but it's his knees locked out
and stopped him from actually hitting. And he spent the
whole delivery like that.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Oh, he might have been of more use doing that. Then, Yeah,
out of the way.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
No, have I held it?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, it was great, and the way he
tells it, it's just great.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
So I missed the birth.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
He missed the whole birth.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And he was in the corner of the wall, and yeah,
his knees stopped him from sliding.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
The way I'm wondering if these dads would have benefited
from doing the course.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
I think so, I was just thinking, you can't kind
of prepare for the smells of the hospital and like
whether you'll see the epidural needle or things like that,
but you can certainly prepare with big advocates of prepare
as a birth partner and have like quite a few
different options and make yourself a cheat sheet like oh
if she you know, because sometimes you learn oh they
like light touch message. I think if my husband had
(24:43):
slightly touched me able to.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Punch sheet, I was way too sweaty palm.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I'm like, what does that say?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I feel like for the third birth, I'm going to
be making up for the fact that I was a
little bit shit it and the preparation side of things
for the first two, because can we get an example
of I just I just think I I think I
don't even know if I went to a birth in class.
(25:14):
I think we went to one. We had one walk
through with a midwife.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I was away for work a lot for our first
child for the birth, so that's my excuse.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, but I just I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I think I think I underestimated how much I would
need to know because I'm like, oh, it's like if
you're going in for any type of operation, you're not
really I'm like, well, the medical staff will do all
the work.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, I don't have to have the degree to you done.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
That's such a common idea of philosophy of so, yeah,
you'll have a midwife. People think the midwife will be
like they're like the like a doueler or like a
support person, and they're in and out and they've got
other things going on a lot of the time. So
people are listening, they haven't been in the birth space before.
You're on your own a lot of the just with
your partner. So you want them to feel confident. You
want them to know different things and like say you
(26:05):
don't want that, you want four other options of like
maybe you want ice chips, or maybe you want the
face towel, or maybe you want birth combs and things
like that, and have a little menu of things you
can offer, because otherwise you'll feel like you'll get to
that point. It's a bit like when you know you
get to an exam and you're like, shit, I really
should have studied the night before. This is that occasion
you can't get it wrong. You need to be there
and you need to have done it a bit of
(26:27):
the homework. But I've given you my book so you'd
be fine.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Also courses that you you provide. What do you think
would benefit young Matthew he the most.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yeah, well, I think start from the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Ucation.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
You've got two births to go off, I think as well,
so you know loosely what she enjoyed.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I saw on the website there's actually before you even
get to childbirth, there's like an information chapter on being pregnant.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, you're not pregnant.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Let's well, how to support.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Can I How can I help Laura? I want to
I want to be I'm trying to. How can we both?
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I'm yeah, yeah, there's so many things you can do,
and I think you're in a unique spot with and
I've got three so I know what that's like. You logistically,
things are very different this time around because you've got
two other people to take care of. I think you
need to also just allow that space for this is
a whole new person coming in. It's a new baby,
a new birth, so you don't know how it's gonna unfold.
(27:28):
But you've also got the logistics of the other two,
and I think people commonly kind of say with subsequent children, like, oh,
you'd be the one that take the other two to
the park or to kinder or daycare, and then you'll
find most people on my show have said I cried
and cried when the new baby came, and it was
less about this baby and it was more about missing
the other two kids or the other one kid, because
(27:48):
you're suddenly having less connection with them and you actually
know them more than you know this baby. And I
remember that with my third because I was like, he
didn't look like the others as well. I was like,
I'll take care of you, Like it wasn't post part
of the impression, and I was like, I'll take care
of you, but I don't really know you how to
feel that connected to you, which was new for me,
and that took a little bit of time to get
(28:10):
to know him. But I felt more of a pull
to the other two children. So I think you have
to find that balance of don't assume that like helping
is taking the other two away. Maybe sometimes it's holding
the newborn and letting them have the kind of em experience.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah I did it. Yeah, that's good. Gear is great.
Get that is good stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
You know, I don't even think about that because I
mean when you were like, yeah, who are you, Like
that makes total sense because it's the first time you
have a child as well, you kind of like, I
don't know you.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Yeah. On our podcast and in the content that we do,
we're to like find what works for you and like
these are some of my opinions and my experience, but
you know, you do what works for you in your household.
But I loved I was never like, have the husband
up helping with the nappy change. I'm like, that seems
ludicrous to me. Like sleep if you can sleep, so
you've got your a game for the next day. I
(29:03):
loved with my second two to just go. I slept
with them in a separate room like in the nursery,
and I was like, okay, you deal with the other
two kids. And I loved it at night rather than
have the nighttime scary. So sometimes people say, oh, the
night comes and you're on your own and you're feeding
all night and you're not going to sleep. I loved it.
I was like, we're going to go into our little
nest and I just have to look after the newborn
(29:23):
and do our thing, and you'll be up for like
making school lunches and doing daycare run and you'll be
feeling fresh, and it's a nice time for them to
bond more and become a little bit more reliant if
you haven't got that dynamic.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, because you were saying you really bonded with Mali
after Lola was born, because you do become like sort
of like little besties all of a sudden. Yeah, because
my wife did the same thing. So with our second,
she slept in the master bedroom with Macy. I slept
on the couch classic. But then I was responsible for
(29:54):
anything Oscar needed and at worked because I was getting rest,
Oscar was getting rest, and we could, you know, like
jump in and help out in the morning when and
we'd be refresh ready to help. And I think that's
a really good advice. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I know everyone is different here, so we're not going
to take what you say as being the golden the
golden rule. But your husband, when you mentioned the first birth,
he was like, this is a sport we're going to take.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
We're going to tackle it, we're gonna get it done,
We're going to win.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah, is there anything that he did, or even if
it was for that first birth, second or third, is
it anything that he did that you look back and go,
I'm so glad that he did that.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
I've got the counter to that. Okay, in the first
birth and then where he did better on the second.
But the first birth, I said, I want the ep
driol now, and he said, now, remember, he's like, now,
remember you said when you asked for the epit drill
that I should offer like he was like, going off script,
I should offer, you know, ice chips or something, and
I said, get out of my face, Mum. I said,
(30:56):
I'm so serious. I want that and it might take
a while, so order it now. And so he tried.
He did follow the instructions, but it was he wasn't
reading the rooms.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Sometimes says I'm going to have a nap, wake me
up in an hour.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Oh yeah, I'm are you sure? A bomb?
Speaker 4 (31:15):
But I think second time around he'd learnt and I'd learned,
and we had different scripts. And I actually didn't really
involve him in the second I just really went inward.
I hardly spoke. I just really was focusing on the
physiology of birth and doing it on my own.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Did he struggle with that at all, then.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
No, I think he was better at just like, Okay,
if she needs me, she'll like grab me.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
And interestingly, with the third I did actually want more
support from him, and I was holding his hands, gripping
and using him as counterbalance. I didn't have birth combes
at that point, so I was just holding on to.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Him for squeezing for dear life.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, right, yeah. Is there any advice that you can
give me when we are I'm I have a level
of apprehension, okay, right now about a third arriving, And
is there any advice that you can give me on
how to better manage life with three little ones under
(32:08):
one roof?
Speaker 4 (32:09):
What's advice for managing three kids? Yeah, okay, it's hard.
I've got a tragic photo of when I just came
home from hospital and I was in that little nest
I'd built myself, and then my three year old at
the time brought a pillow and slept outside the door
like he was waiting for me to come work house.
I know, it's real. Well, I think the important thing
(32:29):
is to acknowledge that it's a transition for everybody in
the family, so for each child, so your youngest is
no longer the youngest. They've become the middle man or
woman in your case. Yeah, the dynamic shift you suddenly
you've got three different people and three different wants and needs.
And I think there's an assumption with subsequent kids, people like, oh,
you've had a baby before, you know what you're doing.
(32:50):
And it's like, yeah, well we know what we're doing
to a degree, but we've got a whole other person
to manage.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Now they're all different.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Yeah, you need more meals, you need more help with
like kinder then things like that, and you've got more mess.
And I think acknowledging kind of surrendering the previous births
and children and being like, okay, we've got a clean
slate here in theory. We're going to look at this
birth and this baby in a whole new light and
really brainstorm, like together, sit down and talk about what, well, Laura,
(33:18):
what did you like in the first birth? What did
I do? Just get it, maybe get a bit of
an appraisal of your previous work, and then together just
talk about logistically, like I don't know if you're wanting
to do breastfeeding, but logistically, okay, we're going to probably
have witching hour where my kids just generally would cry
from say, four till eight pm. And you're like, all right,
(33:38):
we're probably in for an unsettled period with a baby,
but we're going to have to feed the other kids,
So logistically, should we have like how we're going to
manage that, Like just map out kind of best and
worst case scenarios so that you're both on the same
page about what you're trying to navigate.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It Changing nappies again, Matt, I know, I know, it's
it's it's weird.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
How what are your girls now?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
So Marley is about to turn by the time it
comes out, Maley is six and Lola is five?
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Okay, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
She will be five four February she will be sorry.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah yeah, gold stuff, yes, yeah, yes, to reiterate, I
know my children's agent.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Also, I'm a numbers guy. Yes, there was something that
you did. Tap us on the shoulders, shoulder about a
story that happened with one of your kids. I think
it was Nick who had a bit of an incident
in a Westfield car park constipation. Can you please tell
us how did that happen?
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Well, you know how they are, They're like check for
wet nappies. Are they consistently doing wet nappies And we're like, yeah,
he's consistently doing wet nappies, but he hasn't pood for
ten days.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Ten I'd be so fucking cranky, I know.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
He was like, it's like going somewhere you don't reabsorb,
and they were like, it's fine for breastfed. He was
exclusively breastfed, and they yeah, apparently for breastfed babysit, I
think the upper end of the scale is ten days.
They'll like be ready because they'll come back. So you
know you so you do all the things you got
to do still. But then I was like, oh, he
(35:16):
started making strange noises and I videoed it, which I
don't think anyone needs to see, but John is like,
why are you videoing yourself? Was like it's like so overwhelming,
but yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
It was good for the archives.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
First.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Okay, Westfield car Park and just full explosion.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Yeah, well we were going to go in and then
he started making noises and I was like, I think
it's time we went now. Now we went back into
the carrental like had him in the in the.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Boot and what kind of noise does a child groaning
exactly like that?
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Actually, I mean this is a gross visualization, but it
was pretty much like mister Whippy because you know your
old their legs up, you know your hold their legs
up to keep him out of the way, and it
just kept coming. But we also just lo was like
it needs to come out.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Oh my goodness, none of my kids have gone ten day?
Speaker 3 (36:12):
How long do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
You've gone? Now?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
The longest for I was about to delve into a
story when I was twelve, but I won't now. I
know we never had that issue.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
It's so there's there's so many things that happen differently
for other people. Do you think there's there may not
be an answer to this, but what do you think
is the biggest misconception about childbirth?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Misconception? I feel like you don't know what you're going
to want until you're in it. So people, I mean,
we talk about birth plans, and I encourage people to
do them, but I encourage you to have three plans
because you don't know who you're going to be on
that day and you don't know what's going to happen.
So I think a lot of people also think I'll
just tell you what I need. But usually, or in
many many cases, you go almost mute, you go inside
(36:59):
yourself when it's not a time where you can say, actually,
can you pass me that jump up? And people will say, oh,
I was thinking it, and I thought I was saying,
like I need my chapstick, but they weren't because they
were so within themselves. So I think even thinking like
you might think you want a water birth and then
the thought of being in water at the time feels
really wrong. So being flexible and you're just being open
(37:21):
to things changing because you can definitely educate and prepare
yourself and listen to all the stories, but birth just
does its own thing in a lot of ways, and
you've got to be ready.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
For the You've got to have the contingency just in case.
I can imagine, like with so many people that want
to be so meticulous in planned, but there's some things
that are just completely out of your control. Yeah, which happens.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
Yeah, which is why we say like plan for a cesarean.
Perhaps you're going you're not wanting a cesarean, but plan
if you are. You want to have your playlist and
you want to tell the doctors not to talk about golfing,
to like keep it a special birthing environment and keep
the lights limit dim if possible, and things like that. So, yeah,
you're ready for all of it.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So I'm just gonna explore all potential avenues just in case,
so if any of those paths are the ones that
we end up going down on the day, I'll have
some level of information.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Yeah, and like you know how to use the tens
machine now, so you've got that tick just so you
know it goes on the back.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
No one told us that.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
So we saw the comments. I was like, what is
the next time? Next time?
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Now you postpartum, you've got a new book, Okay, tell
us a little bit about Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I think we got to the first book and we're like, oh,
I'm postpartum. We can't just squeeze that into a few
pages at the end because it's huge, as you both know.
And we wanted to find a really comprehensive guide to
sort of feeding and sleep and all the big challenges
and maternal mental health. And we also wanted something was
focused more on the woman because I feel like you
(38:58):
move into like all those different apps that are like
baby focused, the baby should be doing this, you should
be tummy time for this long and rolling at this point.
And we wanted something that really focused on the changes
that the woman's going through. And it's a perfect guide
for a support person or partner to read to kind
of help understand that the physiology of a lot of
those processes too.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, because I mean my wife suffered from postpartum depression
and for me it was for both of us, it
was such new territory. Yeah, I didn't know what to do,
She didn't know what to do. We didn't know what
we were facing. I think we're really really lucky that
we our GP noticed some things and some other people
around us knows some things that really helped, and we
could start the research. So it's nice to know that
(39:40):
for anyone out there that's coming up to the birth
of their first, second, or third or whatever child, there's
something that can help them navigate that. Yeah, and that's
about mum exactly.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Yeah. And I think when you pregnant, you go to
all those appointments all the time, and they're measuring and
checking and they're checking your blood pressure and everything, and
literally have a baby and six weeks later they go, yep,
to go do you want contraception, like, that's pretty much
how it goes, and you've got to navigate breastfeeding if
that's what you're trying to do, or learn how to
do mixed feeding if you wanted to do that, or
move to formula you're trying to navigate. People say, don't
(40:11):
co sleep, but we know seventy to eighty percent of
people will co sleep at some point. We also know
that ninety eight percent of women want to breastfeed, and
by six months only fifteen percent of Australian women are
still breastfeeding, So they're wanting to and it drops off
like that because there's no support. There's no funding. So
it's like if you want to find a lactation consultant
(40:32):
and you're exhausted and you've got cracknipples usually isolated, Yeah,
and if you haven't got the funds, you can't perhaps
pay one hundred and fifty two hundred dollars for a
private LC to come. So, I mean, we'd love to
see huge change in that area where you get more
medicare subsidies for support like that. But I think having
a base understanding of these are some of the things
to look out for, particularly with postnatal anxiety and depression.
(40:56):
You're in such a vulnerable physical and emotional time, and
we talk about the postpartum cliff where you're literally getting
all this support and then it tanks and you're supposed
to just navigate this on your You know exactly what
you are, both of you when you're tired.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And when you talk about that that drop off, when
does that normally take place.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
Well, from a medical point of view, after the six
week check, but a day five you literally fall off
a cliff with your hormones. It's the biggest hormonal drop
you'll ever experience, so which contributes to things like postnatal
depression and anxiety. And we try to normalize like when
to seek support and literally where to go. So we've
(41:34):
got the resources like start here, reach out to the GP,
get a plan, all those sorts of things, but also
we just normalize things like having no idea. I think
people talk about motherly instinct or paternal instinct, and you're
learning who you are as a person. You're trying to
navigate this new dynamic and your hormones are all over
(41:55):
the place. It's we're expecting so much of people.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's like the expectation is starting a brand new job
and knowing how to do it perfectly and.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
It should come naturally.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Yeah. And I know for.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
My wife April and me, I had such high expectations
of myself and so did she that when we weren't
hitting them, it was actually really bad. It was really toxic.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
So I think like having something like this book out
that people can use as a tool to navigate that
is I wish I had that.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
It's hard too when people have tried to perhaps feel
pregnant for a long time and have really wanted this
and then actually a lot of this is shit. Yeah,
I'm not sure I do want this, and normalizing that
you can have rage, and you can have disappointment, and
you can mourn your old life, and you can mourn
your relationship with your partner because you're hardly seeing each
other or you're not being as intimate perhaps as you were,
(42:49):
And we're trying to normalize all of that and also
help you with support to navigate it, because yeah, we're
expecting and we see the shiny, kind of polished version
online of people when they've got it together, but you're
not seeing that harrowing six weeks, everyone's crying everyone's leaking,
you know, Yeah, is there a chapter.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
In the book that tells you to do if you
get shot on?
Speaker 4 (43:13):
I just shower or both go into the shower together.
Some of them just can't be saved.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
I think it's obvious chatting to you why the podcast
has been so successful, because you've been such a valuable
source of information.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
What's going to be next?
Speaker 4 (43:29):
I don't know. I'm moving into perimenopause, so I feel
like that's I've made products for myself. Basically as I'm
gone along, like, Okay, I wish I had this, I
wish I had this, And now I'm moving into that chapter,
I'm like, oh, maybe I'll have to write a book
on perimenopause. But yeah, I don't know. I could be
toddlers and toilet training, although I don't feel like I've
got much advice to give there. I didn't do a
good chot.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Both of my kids toilet train themselves. All of a sudden,
I think my wife's done it. Don't feed themselves? What
was weird at She's obviously done an amazing job. I
try and get involved mu as possible, but yeah, a
lot of the.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Time they don't listen.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
They don't listen to me them.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
We always end on a question where we ask the
guest when their children have grown up, they're no longer
living with you, is there one thing that you would
want them to remember at about the house they grew
up in.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Well, our house is very noisy and wild. I think
we're Yeah, my husband's got ADHD and it's questionable whether
they're all on the spectrum somewhere. So it's noisy, but
I feel like we're a bit of a team, Like
I joke when we travel we're like a boy band.
So I hope they reflect back on Like God, I
don't know how mum took us to all those places
and did all those things, and it was wild, but
it was fun. It's noisy and hilarious at our house.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Sophie, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Thank you so much for not just this chat, but
for all the work you're doing in the space.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, having me, We appreciate you spending some timers today
and helping to educate young Matt here who is expecting again,
and of course the we'll leave a link in our
show notes for that as well.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
I can only imagine just how thrilled Laura is right now.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I think she should be over the moon that you're
putting in the work. The hours, the hours glower and
one hour.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
As this episode forty five minutes roundup.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I always say, I think I'm almost ready to push
the obstitrician out the door and deliver.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
There's Babby myself.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Roll those sleeves up big give so you need some
glass shut.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
If you've enjoyed this episode, please feel free to subscribe, share,
leave a review. All you can join us on all
of the socials, which is a lot of two doing dads.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Let me blow your mind on if you put the
TikTok followers and the Instagram followers together, how much we
are six figures baby, But.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
We can't get more followers without you right now listening,
jump on TikTok, Instagram or Facebook and join us there.
And if there's any other guests that you would like
us to interview. Maybe you're a parent, you're expecting and
you want more information just like me. If there's anyone
who you think would benefit you, benefit me, benefit people
of this country, let us know. Well said good, Let's
(46:18):
get out of here. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the
traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land,
see and community.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
peoples today
Excuse me, Ashton, I don't know why I was English.
Then excuse me, young Chap. Yes, do you remember anything
from Oscar or, let's say Macy's birth?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I do recall fainting, okay, anything else. I recall stepping
over a large turd. That was April.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Beautiful memory. I know that you should.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Actually want to remember the important parts.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Well, I don't really either, but I feel like I'm
going to really give this third birth a red hot.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Crack well man, good thing. We have the host of
Australian Birth Stories, Sophie Walker, on the podcast to remind
us the in the outs of pregnancy, birth and of
course postpartum.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Since twenty seventeen, she's had over five hundred birth stories
from women and from women and men all across the country.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Which had about the big gaps in birth education, the
pressures on partners, and what we really need to prepare
for post pardon, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mom.
I am Maddie Jay.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
And I'm Ash and I'm Sophie Walker.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
And this is.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Birds are just going nuts right now, Birds are birding.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good,
it is the bad and the relatable. And we don't
give advice, but you maybe, yes, one of the most
intelligent guests we have ever had.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I would say so two books we've written one it's
not very intelligent, Ei, though we did have ast.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
There is a question that we start. We're going to
put you on the spot. Yes, we can edit this
out if you don't want to answer it. Let's go
way back to when you were a child. Do you
recall the naughtiest thing you ever did?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Oh, yes, great, great, we might have to edit this.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Do you know so we've got a very blended family.
We're a bit of a brady bunch. And I have
a step brother who returned home from staying at his
mother's with two pet rats. Okay, and I killed them.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Quick cut that out. It was an accident.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Surely, well the Peter will come for me, now, weren't they? No,
it was intentional.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Can I just how old rough we were? Six? Okay?
All right, okay, okay, that's good. With passive period where
you can.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Be persecuted for that, we've really gone off on.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, no, very good.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Do I dare how the rats died?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Let's not. Let's not.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Good start.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I was like, we can't have pet rats and my
mum was really upset and I was like, I'll just
get rid of that.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Do you remember what the punishment was for that?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
No? I don't remember. I was like, yeah, do you
think no one knows it was me?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well they do now, if it makes you feel any better.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
We have a show called the Ecker, which is like
the Eastern Show and Brisbane. My sister won a goldfish.
I don't think I killed the goldfish, but the goldfish
they die pretty quick, and she buried it and I
thought I thought it would be like a fossil. I thought,
how cool to look at the bones. So I dug
it up.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
You guys are fucked up and I got in a
lot of trouble and I was like, I was just inquisitive.
I wanted to see the bones of the fish.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
The worst thing I ever did was befriend apossum.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
And that's it. Didn't even kill it.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
The dog's next door killed it, and I cried, that's
about it. But I've never I can successfully.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Can I just say we had ashes.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Mum on recently talked about him being in prison jail
holding cell anyway, so he's lying. Okay, befriended a possum.
You've been in jail, so just that's the only time
you know that I've been in jail.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Starving so lowly.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
From me, and I think it's a really good place
to start. You might as well start at the bottom.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's an interesting next question because I didn't expect your
first answer.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I don't know where that.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Came from, but wasn't I wasn't expecting to start with murder.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Did you always want to be a mum?
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I feel like I need to reframe my first answer.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yeah, very good, very good.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
I did always want to be am my murderer's tendency maybe.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
A six year old child's on them.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Okay, I did always want to be a mum, and
I kind of I always wanted to be a midwife, really,
which is weird that I didn't actually take that turn
after school. But yeah, I always saw myself wanting to
be a mum. And I was the first at any
family event to be like, oh, hold the baby. I'll
hold the baby from a really young age, so I've
always been into it.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I was the opposite.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I'm like, was there someone who introduced you to Midwiffree.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
No, well, I didn't sort of study, but I've ended
up in this space now kind of just always gravitated
towards that nurturing side and wanting to take care of kids,
and I really look forward to the first opportunity of
like having my own and having my turn and doing
it all very maternal.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, yeah, very cool. And how I mean your first.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Child was I got three boys?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah, you got three boys?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Again, what's the eldest names Nick?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
And he's eleven, and then I've got Louis who's nine
and Otti is six.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well in the parent hierarchy, you are much higher than Madam.
I more seasoned for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I didn't know there was such a gap between the
birth of your podcast and the birth of your first child,
but that is how the idea came about for the podcast.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Yeah, so I had I had a really difficult first birth,
and then I had a really great second birth, and
I made the podcast after the second birth. So it's like,
it can be really wonderful and let's kind of celebrate
and explore that. And that's when the podcast slotted in.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I know you've spoken about this many times, but for
anyone who's not familiar with your birth story for your first,
can you explain when you say it wasn't a great birth?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
What went wrong? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
So I went into that berth really confident because I
had that vibe of like, I can do this, like
bring on the challenge of contractions. And my husband has
ADHD and he's very sporty, and he was like, it's fine,
we'll just cover the contractions, we'll train for it, we'll
be fine. When so we were both really confident, in cocky,
really and I was like, I don't need drugs. I'm
just going to do it. I actually went into I
(06:31):
think it's about forty weeks and I went in. I
already had an appointment scheduled and I think I think
I was having contractions in the night. So I said
to the midwife, Oh, can you check me. I might
be in labor. And she checked me and she said,
you're five centimeters. I was like, huh, I'm halfway and
I haven't even raised a sweat. And she said, you're
going to have a baby this afternoon. You better go
home and have a sleep. And we were like, yeah,
we knew we had this. Thirty six hours later, I
(06:53):
was screaming for all the drugs. So I just well,
they used the term failure to progress. I got stuck
at five cent to meet us for a really long time,
and we did the pacing and the coaching and the
tens machine that I know you guys have tested out.
We're doing all of that, so we know exactly what
you've been through, exactly you have simulated that pain.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Do they know why that happens?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, it's a bit tricky to know. I got to
a point where they said, well, we need to put
the drugs in to induce you and speed up the
later because it's not progressing. And it turns out that
my first was four point four kilos, so he was
pretty big.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I'm going to be really stupid and I'm sorry me too.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Go what's normal? Yeah, average is kind of like three
point four okay, wow, kind of Yeah, it was significantly larger.
It would have known, No, they didn't, which is funny
because then they were worried with my other two babies
that they were going to be big, and they they weren't.
They were smaller.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Can I ask you about you mentioned something their failure
to progress? Now, how did it feel when they said that.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, there's so many terms in the birth space and
motherhood space I think as well fatherhood than a negative
like that. There's failure to progress, even miscarriage, like you've
done it wrong, you're not progressing, you're not pushing, you
need all these interventions, which we're trying to like dispel
and use more positive language. Even people still use like
natural birth. There's this unnatural birth, and I mean every
(08:18):
mode of birth is natural. We sort of talk about
cesarians as belly births rather than vaginal births, but we're
trying to do away with all that negative connotation.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, as soon as you said that, I was like,
it just has such like a negative And yeah, when
it's sort of out.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Of your control exactly and you're doing your best, and
of course you want your baby to come out. No
one's like actively even with the cervix, well, you've failure
to progress. Incompetent cervix is another term. Oh my goodness,
you know, like you're just so netive.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
That's pretty much what you.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Again, something you've got no physical control over. But I
more or less got to the point where I said,
can I have an epidural? And then his heart rate
dropped and they need to use forceps, and I had
a post putum hemorrhage and it all just kind of
went pear shape for a really crazy five minutes. My
mum was there and my sister was there taking photos
and I yelled at her put down your camera and
hold up my leg, and my mom ran out of
(09:13):
the room. She was just like, this is too much.
My little boy came out and he was blue and unresponsive,
so that was a hectic few minutes, but he came
around really quickly, and then they managed me really quickly.
But I was just like, what the hell.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I was not expecting not expecting it when you're in
that situation where baby comes out blue in the chaos
of it all, I know you kind of zone out
towards that point of childbirth, But are you panicked? Are
you Are you aware of the stress and that those
types of emotions.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yeah, And I actually can still recall losing the blood.
I thought I was dying and I just said, just
go to johnno, just go and be with the baby
because I'm pretty much dying. And it was all like
that sounds really extreme, and it was in the time,
but it was really quickly and then everyone's like, no,
the baby's fine, We've controlled the bleeding. You're good now,
like just put the baby on the breast, and I
(10:06):
was like oh, And I felt terrible and I was
like depleted from so I lost nine hundred mills and
anything over a liter is considered a postpartum hemorrhage. But
if you think of a leader of milk, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Of blood, a leader of water.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
If you will take you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
So it was really stressful for everyone and my husband John.
I thought that the baby and me were going to die,
so I was traumatic for the family as well. But
I guess fast forward to the next berth, I still
was like, Okay, I want a second go at this,
and I really immersed myself in birth education and looking
at other possibilities of birth because I think I just
went in going I don't need drugs and it'll be fine,
(10:42):
and they said I'll have a baby in the next
four hours and it's easy. And so I went the
next time around like I'm going to absorb every single
way that this can unfold. So nothing catches me by surprise.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Is there anything with the education that you had leading
up to the second child? Is there anything about your
first birth that you go, oh, I wish I knew this,
or I wish I'd done this differently.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
One of the biggest shifts was instead of like going
contractions coming and like literally going, oh, I just got
to get through the next one minute, I went the
opposite and I was like, Okay, contraction's coming. I'm going
to like release the tension as much as possible and
literally let the body move their baby kind of move
down and encourage that process, the physiology of birth, and
(11:24):
work with it rather than against it. And I think
I had like a five hour berth with my second
and he was a kilo smaller, So I think that helps.
And you've done it before and all your muscles have
done it before. But I really kind of worked with
the process instead of against it. And I think it's
instinctual when you feel pain to go for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Were I'm just on the Tannes machine in particular, really
worked against the pain.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
For a while because you.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Really grounded yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I really ground myself, really felt like I was in
my natural element, and then all of a sudden, I
was like.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It was tough.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I just want to jump back the days and maybe
the week's leading after the first birth. Yeah, I mean,
where was your headspace after that? It was obviously the unexpected.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, we were in a kind of unusual situation at
the time because we hadn't really planned to have a
baby then, and we were both living at my parents'
house and we were both trying to finish master's degrees,
so it wasn't like the best time to fall pregnant.
And my mum wanted to sell the family home and
she's like, well, we can't sell it now because you're pregnant.
So I came home to a pretty great situation. Bum
(12:30):
was cooking for me and then they were like it
was first grandchild, So they were hovering around our bedroom
door in the morning, go can we hold the baby?
Can we hold the baby? So I could go and
have a shower, and we had heaps of support, really,
but I think, like my mum was saying, oh, I
think you know the fontanelle, the soft bit on the
top of the head. I think he's fontanelle's going in.
I don't think you're feeding him enough. I think you
should give him boiled water. And I was like, Mum,
nobody does that anymore? Like that, you don't know we're
(12:52):
talking about, yeah, put something in a bottle. So there
was a little bit of that tension, but generally we
had really great support and I had midwifree group care,
so I had a known midwife throughout the pregnancy, the birth,
and the postpartum and she was coming to the home
and checking everything and supporting me. So I had like
the best possible kind of setup, and yet I still
(13:13):
felt physically really depleted. I had because I had an episiotomy.
I had a lot of stitches and swelling, and I
actually had a prolapse. So I don't know if you're
familiar with that. We're throwing those words around all the time.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Now I'm assuming a prolapse is I don't know what
that is, okay, So it's when you know, so you
have your pelvic floor as a woman that holds all
the organs in at the bottom and when you're pushing,
and the weight that the pregnancy can stretch those muscles,
so things can kind of fall not fall out, but
there's laxity in those muscles, right, So you can have
(13:46):
in continence issues or you can have just like a
heaviness and things like that.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
So you need to see a woman's health, physio and
get support. So I had those things going on, which
leads to like lower back pain and stuff, and still
navigating feeding and all the challenges for the first time
mum got through, but emotionally, once I got through thinking
about the birth and just going what the hell was that,
I kind of shelved that until I was pregnant again
to like reassess the birth process. And I really enjoyed
(14:10):
being a mum and I really had a really easy
breastfeeding journey, so I felt really positive about that.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
We have to give you a big round of applause.
I'd give you like a Donnor for the audio, because
since twenty seventeen, you've created an absolute behemoth of a podcast.
It is incredible what you've done, and we found out
before we started recording that you still do a lot
of it on your own.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I think people really underestimate how much work is involved
in a podcast. People think you just rock up and
you chat for a bit.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
And that's it. Yeah, so well done.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
You had the birth of your second child, which was
opposite to your first, But then how do you make
the connection between those situations to then go I want
to start a podcast.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Well, I was listening to a lot of podcasts at
the time, and it was Yeah, in twenty seventeen, there
weren't many. It wasn't like what it is today. But
I was listening to heaps and work part time in
cancer research. That's what I was doing. And I was
chatting to a friend. We did a lot of like
envelope stuffing and things for research. She's like, you should
just do your own podcast, and I was like, oh,
who listened to mine? Just like, doesn't even matter. Just
(15:11):
like record yours and a few friends, which is what
I did initially. And I seriously thought, like I was
working and I had kids and things. I didn't think
it would become a business or anything like that. And
I literally did. So the first episode is me, the
next month's my sister, then a few close friends, and
I was like, can you Apparently with podcasts you've got
to keep the momentum. So tomorrow I'm coming over and
we'll record your birth story. And everyone likes to tell
(15:32):
their birst story, so they're like sure, but now they're like,
can you actually take my episode down? I didn't realize
millions of people.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I haven't.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
I was like, no, it's I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I'm just.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
So yeah, it's funny, but I've been doing it. So
we've done five hundred and fifty episodes now and started
to share real variety of birth experiences and postpartum experiences,
and I think people enjoyed kind of seeing that as well.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, people like to hear that other people have gone
through things as well. I wasn't really aware of all
the different variations of and what can happen. Do you
think it's benefiting in terms of what people can expect
in every situation?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
And I think we have, Like some people find out
they're pregnant and just kind of want to block their
ears and not hear any of it. And so we've
got like a starting point of his five positive birth
experiences to get you started. Have listened, and then hopefully
throughout your nine months of preparing, you'll gradually listen to
things that have had been a little bit more challenging.
Because I know people have messaged me saying, oh, thank god,
(16:35):
I listened to Claire's episode because she asked for this
and I asked for that. And so they're just sort
of putting a few extra things in their toolkits. Along
the way, and I think, yeah, their first hand account
saying that really helped.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Is there one that stands out as being the most
surprising that you've heard on the podcast?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
One of them that was a bit more interesting was
a same sex couple where the other partner, who didn't
carry the child, was able to induce lactations, so they
both breastfed the baby even though one of them carried
the baby.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Again, when I'm like, we don't know how many variations
and how what can happen? There's one never straight off
the bat men could do that.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Assume it was two women.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Yeah, you literally don't have the biology for it. And
every woman's like, imagine how good that would be. You're like,
the two am feed, you just elbow the other one fifty.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Fifty heavens, and we don't have that ability. That is
such an amazing I just didn't know. Sorry, and my
mind's a little bit blining abound.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And is there any stories when you look at the
spectrum of those being difficult births that sticks out as
being one that was traumatic for you to listen to.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Yeah, quite a few of them because we do everything
from like a textbook water birth with no drugs and
everyone that's euphuic through to stillbirth where the baby hasn't
survived or an infant loss. So we we really do
the full spectrum. And at the beginning they're titled as such,
and at the beginning, I'll say this episode contains the following.
If you don't feel ready to listen to it, then
(18:08):
stop now. So we're very respectful of that. And yet
those episodes still get a lot of people listening because
not only is it beneficial for someone to share it
and in a cathartic experience, but other people that have
been through that sort of such a unique and harrowing
journey want to listen to other people how they navigated it.
(18:29):
And then we've also got a lot of people listening
who want to support friends and family, or we've also
got it's now certified professional development for midwives to listen
to the podcast as part of their training, so they
can listen because you need to do a certain number
of births before you're qualified, but to be able to
listen to first hand accounts on mass they can use
(18:51):
that as accreditation, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Do you find that when you have people reaching out
that are they aren't parents yet but they're thinking about
whether they want to be parents, and they've listened to
a few stories and they've sort of built up a
bit of an anxiety around it.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Usually not anxiety. They sort of are starting to get
excited and they're doing all their homework and I feel
like they're like the gold the A plus students. They're
startying their head because I think depending on what model
of care you want and things like that, you do
need to know straight away to advocate for that. And
if they've done their research and know what they want,
then they're halfway there for that. So yeah, it's definitely exciting,
(19:27):
perhaps more so skewed to like Midwiffree and student duelers
and things listening and then they're ready at their point.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I feel like I'm a bit of a sponge right now.
We are expecting our baby, our third baby, in September.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
So exciting, and I think now more.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Than ever, I'm a lot more keen to understand all
potential situations. Going back to some of the stories that
you've told, is the one that sticks with you the most.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
I kind of think my favorite, one of my favorite
episodes is with my sister because I was her and
I'd had three kids at that point, and I was
supporting her.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
You're the expert.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Well I thought I was, but then when you're in there,
and I think when you've got that emotional connection. So
it really made me sort of see what it's like
to support someone. And she was saying, I don't think
I can do it, and I was thinking, I don't
think you can either. I didn't say that, and I
was like, oh my god, Yeah, that really has to
come out. And when you're at that angle, it looks
totally different when you're looking down.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
You're doing Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I was like, just like squort a bit more. And
afterwards I was like, I don't know. I think perhaps
I was using all the techniques and stories. I was like,
I think you need to go to the toilet now,
now get on the ball, now get on the bed,
and do the squad. And then her midwife was like
fine and let me boss her around and it went
really well and it was a great experience, and I
actually caught her baby.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yeah, which is funny because I caught her daughter and
she is like a no touch person. I was like,
I caught you a birth, and she won't give me
a hug.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Now, oh wow.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Out of the five hundred or so stories, how many
of them had a fainting partner in it?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
I think a few. Yes, you're one of them.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I've got two kids. Firstborn very when in routinely she
went into labor contractions, fine, same thing, sort of he
was spine to spine, and we sort of ended up
being in there for like forty eight hours before it
turned into an emergency sea section. I was completely fine
through the whole thing. I just step over a bit
of pooh. That was probably the hardest part, but like
(21:30):
I was sort of I felt calm and collected in
the moment when she needed me to be there. But
then with my second child, it was a planned C section,
like booking into a hotel in this instance, and we
were both like, this is so much more calm, and
we know what to expect. They tell us what we're doing.
We're in scrubs, it's all happening this morning. I'm staring
(21:50):
my wife as she's sitting on the side of the
bed and she's getting an epidural. I can't see anything.
I didn't see the needle. Bo I'm out, I remember, thankfully.
I was sort of crouched down, sitting holding her hands,
just being there in the moment with her and trying
to be if she was scared, trying to take on
(22:12):
some of that for her, and it all came a
little bit overwhelming for me, and I fainted, and I
remember waking up with my legs in the air with
a flannel on my face and.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Pants were off as well.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yes, that's still unexplained.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
We'll get to the bottom flap. And I'm holding.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
A juice box and I look up and my wife's
laying down getting ready for a plant c section, and
she just goes, of course, she'd make it all about you.
And there's all the nurses and everyone around taking photos
of me flat on my back with my legs up
in the air, and I'm not I'm excited to tell
this story because I'm usually not allowed to tell this
(22:52):
story because I've told it too many times and Mats,
can you just cool it? But today I'm yeah, yeah,
so I recovered and I was I'm so pleased.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Have you had any stories that have a similar situation
to that.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
Yeah, I think it's quite common, and I think, well,
I think the big point of difference for like the
birthing woman is going through all the hormones and everything,
and you go into this other world where it's quite
different for the birth support person because they're present and
they're seeing their child that's being born and their partner
go through all those things. So I think you're in
kind of you're almost on different planets.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, I was kind of like when they pull both
kids out and they're screaming, it's like, put it back
feel my friends have fainted. Actually, one he took a
peek midway through and sort of got a bit woozy
and he moved off towards the corner of the delivery
suite and he fainted, hit the corner of the wall,
(23:50):
started to slide down, but it's his knees locked out
and stopped him from actually hitting. And he spent the
whole delivery like that.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Oh, he might have been of more use doing that. Then, Yeah,
out of the way.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
No, have I held it?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, it was great, and the way he
tells it, it's just great.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
So I missed the birth.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
He missed the whole birth.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And he was in the corner of the wall, and yeah,
his knees stopped him from sliding.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
The way I'm wondering if these dads would have benefited
from doing the course.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
I think so, I was just thinking, you can't kind
of prepare for the smells of the hospital and like
whether you'll see the epidural needle or things like that,
but you can certainly prepare with big advocates of prepare
as a birth partner and have like quite a few
different options and make yourself a cheat sheet like oh
if she you know, because sometimes you learn oh they
like light touch message. I think if my husband had
(24:43):
slightly touched me able to.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Punch sheet, I was way too sweaty palm.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I'm like, what does that say?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I feel like for the third birth, I'm going to
be making up for the fact that I was a
little bit shit it and the preparation side of things
for the first two, because can we get an example
of I just I just think I I think I
don't even know if I went to a birth in class.
(25:14):
I think we went to one. We had one walk
through with a midwife.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I was away for work a lot for our first
child for the birth, so that's my excuse.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, but I just I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I think I think I underestimated how much I would
need to know because I'm like, oh, it's like if
you're going in for any type of operation, you're not
really I'm like, well, the medical staff will do all
the work.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, I don't have to have the degree to you done.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
That's such a common idea of philosophy of so, yeah,
you'll have a midwife. People think the midwife will be
like they're like the like a doueler or like a
support person, and they're in and out and they've got
other things going on a lot of the time. So
people are listening, they haven't been in the birth space before.
You're on your own a lot of the just with
your partner. So you want them to feel confident. You
want them to know different things and like say you
(26:05):
don't want that, you want four other options of like
maybe you want ice chips, or maybe you want the
face towel, or maybe you want birth combs and things
like that, and have a little menu of things you
can offer, because otherwise you'll feel like you'll get to
that point. It's a bit like when you know you
get to an exam and you're like, shit, I really
should have studied the night before. This is that occasion
you can't get it wrong. You need to be there
and you need to have done it a bit of
(26:27):
the homework. But I've given you my book so you'd
be fine.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Also courses that you you provide. What do you think
would benefit young Matthew he the most.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yeah, well, I think start from the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Ucation.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
You've got two births to go off, I think as well,
so you know loosely what she enjoyed.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I saw on the website there's actually before you even
get to childbirth, there's like an information chapter on being pregnant.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, you're not pregnant.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Let's well, how to support.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Can I How can I help Laura? I want to
I want to be I'm trying to. How can we both?
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I'm yeah, yeah, there's so many things you can do,
and I think you're in a unique spot with and
I've got three so I know what that's like. You logistically,
things are very different this time around because you've got
two other people to take care of. I think you
need to also just allow that space for this is
a whole new person coming in. It's a new baby,
a new birth, so you don't know how it's gonna unfold.
(27:28):
But you've also got the logistics of the other two,
and I think people commonly kind of say with subsequent children, like, oh,
you'd be the one that take the other two to
the park or to kinder or daycare, and then you'll
find most people on my show have said I cried
and cried when the new baby came, and it was
less about this baby and it was more about missing
the other two kids or the other one kid, because
(27:48):
you're suddenly having less connection with them and you actually
know them more than you know this baby. And I
remember that with my third because I was like, he
didn't look like the others as well. I was like,
I'll take care of you, Like it wasn't post part
of the impression, and I was like, I'll take care
of you, but I don't really know you how to
feel that connected to you, which was new for me,
and that took a little bit of time to get
(28:10):
to know him. But I felt more of a pull
to the other two children. So I think you have
to find that balance of don't assume that like helping
is taking the other two away. Maybe sometimes it's holding
the newborn and letting them have the kind of em experience.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah I did it. Yeah, that's good. Gear is great.
Get that is good stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
You know, I don't even think about that because I
mean when you were like, yeah, who are you, Like
that makes total sense because it's the first time you
have a child as well, you kind of like, I
don't know you.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Yeah. On our podcast and in the content that we do,
we're to like find what works for you and like
these are some of my opinions and my experience, but
you know, you do what works for you in your household.
But I loved I was never like, have the husband
up helping with the nappy change. I'm like, that seems
ludicrous to me. Like sleep if you can sleep, so
you've got your a game for the next day. I
(29:03):
loved with my second two to just go. I slept
with them in a separate room like in the nursery,
and I was like, okay, you deal with the other
two kids. And I loved it at night rather than
have the nighttime scary. So sometimes people say, oh, the
night comes and you're on your own and you're feeding
all night and you're not going to sleep. I loved it.
I was like, we're going to go into our little
nest and I just have to look after the newborn
(29:23):
and do our thing, and you'll be up for like
making school lunches and doing daycare run and you'll be
feeling fresh, and it's a nice time for them to
bond more and become a little bit more reliant if
you haven't got that dynamic.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, because you were saying you really bonded with Mali
after Lola was born, because you do become like sort
of like little besties all of a sudden. Yeah, because
my wife did the same thing. So with our second,
she slept in the master bedroom with Macy. I slept
on the couch classic. But then I was responsible for
(29:54):
anything Oscar needed and at worked because I was getting rest,
Oscar was getting rest, and we could, you know, like
jump in and help out in the morning when and
we'd be refresh ready to help. And I think that's
a really good advice. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I know everyone is different here, so we're not going
to take what you say as being the golden the
golden rule. But your husband, when you mentioned the first birth,
he was like, this is a sport we're going to take.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
We're going to tackle it, we're gonna get it done,
We're going to win.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah, is there anything that he did, or even if
it was for that first birth, second or third, is
it anything that he did that you look back and go,
I'm so glad that he did that.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
I've got the counter to that. Okay, in the first
birth and then where he did better on the second.
But the first birth, I said, I want the ep
driol now, and he said, now, remember, he's like, now,
remember you said when you asked for the epit drill
that I should offer like he was like, going off script,
I should offer, you know, ice chips or something, and
I said, get out of my face, Mum. I said,
(30:56):
I'm so serious. I want that and it might take
a while, so order it now. And so he tried.
He did follow the instructions, but it was he wasn't
reading the rooms.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Sometimes says I'm going to have a nap, wake me
up in an hour.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Oh yeah, I'm are you sure? A bomb?
Speaker 4 (31:15):
But I think second time around he'd learnt and I'd learned,
and we had different scripts. And I actually didn't really
involve him in the second I just really went inward.
I hardly spoke. I just really was focusing on the
physiology of birth and doing it on my own.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Did he struggle with that at all, then.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
No, I think he was better at just like, Okay,
if she needs me, she'll like grab me.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
And interestingly, with the third I did actually want more
support from him, and I was holding his hands, gripping
and using him as counterbalance. I didn't have birth combes
at that point, so I was just holding on to.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Him for squeezing for dear life.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, right, yeah. Is there any advice that you can
give me when we are I'm I have a level
of apprehension, okay, right now about a third arriving, And
is there any advice that you can give me on
how to better manage life with three little ones under
(32:08):
one roof?
Speaker 4 (32:09):
What's advice for managing three kids? Yeah, okay, it's hard.
I've got a tragic photo of when I just came
home from hospital and I was in that little nest
I'd built myself, and then my three year old at
the time brought a pillow and slept outside the door
like he was waiting for me to come work house.
I know, it's real. Well, I think the important thing
(32:29):
is to acknowledge that it's a transition for everybody in
the family, so for each child, so your youngest is
no longer the youngest. They've become the middle man or
woman in your case. Yeah, the dynamic shift you suddenly
you've got three different people and three different wants and needs.
And I think there's an assumption with subsequent kids, people like, oh,
you've had a baby before, you know what you're doing.
(32:50):
And it's like, yeah, well we know what we're doing
to a degree, but we've got a whole other person
to manage.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Now they're all different.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Yeah, you need more meals, you need more help with
like kinder then things like that, and you've got more mess.
And I think acknowledging kind of surrendering the previous births
and children and being like, okay, we've got a clean
slate here in theory. We're going to look at this
birth and this baby in a whole new light and
really brainstorm, like together, sit down and talk about what, well, Laura,
(33:18):
what did you like in the first birth? What did
I do? Just get it, maybe get a bit of
an appraisal of your previous work, and then together just
talk about logistically, like I don't know if you're wanting
to do breastfeeding, but logistically, okay, we're going to probably
have witching hour where my kids just generally would cry
from say, four till eight pm. And you're like, all right,
(33:38):
we're probably in for an unsettled period with a baby,
but we're going to have to feed the other kids,
So logistically, should we have like how we're going to
manage that, Like just map out kind of best and
worst case scenarios so that you're both on the same
page about what you're trying to navigate.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It Changing nappies again, Matt, I know, I know, it's
it's it's weird.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
How what are your girls now?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
So Marley is about to turn by the time it
comes out, Maley is six and Lola is five?
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Okay, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
She will be five four February she will be sorry.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah yeah, gold stuff, yes, yeah, yes, to reiterate, I
know my children's agent.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Also, I'm a numbers guy. Yes, there was something that
you did. Tap us on the shoulders, shoulder about a
story that happened with one of your kids. I think
it was Nick who had a bit of an incident
in a Westfield car park constipation. Can you please tell
us how did that happen?
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Well, you know how they are, They're like check for
wet nappies. Are they consistently doing wet nappies And we're like, yeah,
he's consistently doing wet nappies, but he hasn't pood for
ten days.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Ten I'd be so fucking cranky, I know.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
He was like, it's like going somewhere you don't reabsorb,
and they were like, it's fine for breastfed. He was
exclusively breastfed, and they yeah, apparently for breastfed babysit, I
think the upper end of the scale is ten days.
They'll like be ready because they'll come back. So you
know you so you do all the things you got
to do still. But then I was like, oh, he
(35:16):
started making strange noises and I videoed it, which I
don't think anyone needs to see, but John is like,
why are you videoing yourself? Was like it's like so overwhelming,
but yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
It was good for the archives.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
First.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Okay, Westfield car Park and just full explosion.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Yeah, well we were going to go in and then
he started making noises and I was like, I think
it's time we went now. Now we went back into
the carrental like had him in the in the.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Boot and what kind of noise does a child groaning
exactly like that?
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Actually, I mean this is a gross visualization, but it
was pretty much like mister Whippy because you know your
old their legs up, you know your hold their legs
up to keep him out of the way, and it
just kept coming. But we also just lo was like
it needs to come out.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Oh my goodness, none of my kids have gone ten day?
Speaker 3 (36:12):
How long do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
You've gone? Now?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
The longest for I was about to delve into a
story when I was twelve, but I won't now. I
know we never had that issue.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
It's so there's there's so many things that happen differently
for other people. Do you think there's there may not
be an answer to this, but what do you think
is the biggest misconception about childbirth?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Misconception? I feel like you don't know what you're going
to want until you're in it. So people, I mean,
we talk about birth plans, and I encourage people to
do them, but I encourage you to have three plans
because you don't know who you're going to be on
that day and you don't know what's going to happen.
So I think a lot of people also think I'll
just tell you what I need. But usually, or in
many many cases, you go almost mute, you go inside
(36:59):
yourself when it's not a time where you can say, actually,
can you pass me that jump up? And people will say, oh,
I was thinking it, and I thought I was saying,
like I need my chapstick, but they weren't because they
were so within themselves. So I think even thinking like
you might think you want a water birth and then
the thought of being in water at the time feels
really wrong. So being flexible and you're just being open
(37:21):
to things changing because you can definitely educate and prepare
yourself and listen to all the stories, but birth just
does its own thing in a lot of ways, and
you've got to be ready.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
For the You've got to have the contingency just in case.
I can imagine, like with so many people that want
to be so meticulous in planned, but there's some things
that are just completely out of your control. Yeah, which happens.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
Yeah, which is why we say like plan for a cesarean.
Perhaps you're going you're not wanting a cesarean, but plan
if you are. You want to have your playlist and
you want to tell the doctors not to talk about golfing,
to like keep it a special birthing environment and keep
the lights limit dim if possible, and things like that. So, yeah,
you're ready for all of it.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So I'm just gonna explore all potential avenues just in case,
so if any of those paths are the ones that
we end up going down on the day, I'll have
some level of information.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Yeah, and like you know how to use the tens
machine now, so you've got that tick just so you
know it goes on the back.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
No one told us that.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
So we saw the comments. I was like, what is
the next time? Next time?
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Now you postpartum, you've got a new book, Okay, tell
us a little bit about Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I think we got to the first book and we're like, oh,
I'm postpartum. We can't just squeeze that into a few
pages at the end because it's huge, as you both know.
And we wanted to find a really comprehensive guide to
sort of feeding and sleep and all the big challenges
and maternal mental health. And we also wanted something was
focused more on the woman because I feel like you
(38:58):
move into like all those different apps that are like
baby focused, the baby should be doing this, you should
be tummy time for this long and rolling at this point.
And we wanted something that really focused on the changes
that the woman's going through. And it's a perfect guide
for a support person or partner to read to kind
of help understand that the physiology of a lot of
those processes too.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, because I mean my wife suffered from postpartum depression
and for me it was for both of us, it
was such new territory. Yeah, I didn't know what to do,
She didn't know what to do. We didn't know what
we were facing. I think we're really really lucky that
we our GP noticed some things and some other people
around us knows some things that really helped, and we
could start the research. So it's nice to know that
(39:40):
for anyone out there that's coming up to the birth
of their first, second, or third or whatever child, there's
something that can help them navigate that. Yeah, and that's
about mum exactly.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Yeah. And I think when you pregnant, you go to
all those appointments all the time, and they're measuring and
checking and they're checking your blood pressure and everything, and
literally have a baby and six weeks later they go, yep,
to go do you want contraception, like, that's pretty much
how it goes, and you've got to navigate breastfeeding if
that's what you're trying to do, or learn how to
do mixed feeding if you wanted to do that, or
move to formula you're trying to navigate. People say, don't
(40:11):
co sleep, but we know seventy to eighty percent of
people will co sleep at some point. We also know
that ninety eight percent of women want to breastfeed, and
by six months only fifteen percent of Australian women are
still breastfeeding, So they're wanting to and it drops off
like that because there's no support. There's no funding. So
it's like if you want to find a lactation consultant
(40:32):
and you're exhausted and you've got cracknipples usually isolated, Yeah,
and if you haven't got the funds, you can't perhaps
pay one hundred and fifty two hundred dollars for a
private LC to come. So, I mean, we'd love to
see huge change in that area where you get more
medicare subsidies for support like that. But I think having
a base understanding of these are some of the things
to look out for, particularly with postnatal anxiety and depression.
(40:56):
You're in such a vulnerable physical and emotional time, and
we talk about the postpartum cliff where you're literally getting
all this support and then it tanks and you're supposed
to just navigate this on your You know exactly what
you are, both of you when you're tired.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And when you talk about that that drop off, when
does that normally take place.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
Well, from a medical point of view, after the six
week check, but a day five you literally fall off
a cliff with your hormones. It's the biggest hormonal drop
you'll ever experience, so which contributes to things like postnatal
depression and anxiety. And we try to normalize like when
to seek support and literally where to go. So we've
(41:34):
got the resources like start here, reach out to the GP,
get a plan, all those sorts of things, but also
we just normalize things like having no idea. I think
people talk about motherly instinct or paternal instinct, and you're
learning who you are as a person. You're trying to
navigate this new dynamic and your hormones are all over
(41:55):
the place. It's we're expecting so much of people.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's like the expectation is starting a brand new job
and knowing how to do it perfectly and.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
It should come naturally.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Yeah. And I know for.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
My wife April and me, I had such high expectations
of myself and so did she that when we weren't
hitting them, it was actually really bad. It was really toxic.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
So I think like having something like this book out
that people can use as a tool to navigate that
is I wish I had that.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
It's hard too when people have tried to perhaps feel
pregnant for a long time and have really wanted this
and then actually a lot of this is shit. Yeah,
I'm not sure I do want this, and normalizing that
you can have rage, and you can have disappointment, and
you can mourn your old life, and you can mourn
your relationship with your partner because you're hardly seeing each
other or you're not being as intimate perhaps as you were,
(42:49):
And we're trying to normalize all of that and also
help you with support to navigate it, because yeah, we're
expecting and we see the shiny, kind of polished version
online of people when they've got it together, but you're
not seeing that harrowing six weeks, everyone's crying everyone's leaking,
you know, Yeah, is there a chapter.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
In the book that tells you to do if you
get shot on?
Speaker 4 (43:13):
I just shower or both go into the shower together.
Some of them just can't be saved.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
I think it's obvious chatting to you why the podcast
has been so successful, because you've been such a valuable
source of information.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
What's going to be next?
Speaker 4 (43:29):
I don't know. I'm moving into perimenopause, so I feel
like that's I've made products for myself. Basically as I'm
gone along, like, Okay, I wish I had this, I
wish I had this, And now I'm moving into that chapter,
I'm like, oh, maybe I'll have to write a book
on perimenopause. But yeah, I don't know. I could be
toddlers and toilet training, although I don't feel like I've
got much advice to give there. I didn't do a
good chot.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Both of my kids toilet train themselves. All of a sudden,
I think my wife's done it. Don't feed themselves? What
was weird at She's obviously done an amazing job. I
try and get involved mu as possible, but yeah, a
lot of the.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Time they don't listen.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
They don't listen to me them.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
We always end on a question where we ask the
guest when their children have grown up, they're no longer
living with you, is there one thing that you would
want them to remember at about the house they grew
up in.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Well, our house is very noisy and wild. I think
we're Yeah, my husband's got ADHD and it's questionable whether
they're all on the spectrum somewhere. So it's noisy, but
I feel like we're a bit of a team, Like
I joke when we travel we're like a boy band.
So I hope they reflect back on Like God, I
don't know how mum took us to all those places
and did all those things, and it was wild, but
it was fun. It's noisy and hilarious at our house.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Sophie, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Thank you so much for not just this chat, but
for all the work you're doing in the space.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, having me, We appreciate you spending some timers today
and helping to educate young Matt here who is expecting again,
and of course the we'll leave a link in our
show notes for that as well.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
I can only imagine just how thrilled Laura is right now.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I think she should be over the moon that you're
putting in the work. The hours, the hours glower and
one hour.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
As this episode forty five minutes roundup.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I always say, I think I'm almost ready to push
the obstitrician out the door and deliver.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
There's Babby myself.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Roll those sleeves up big give so you need some
glass shut.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
If you've enjoyed this episode, please feel free to subscribe, share,
leave a review. All you can join us on all
of the socials, which is a lot of two doing dads.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Let me blow your mind on if you put the
TikTok followers and the Instagram followers together, how much we
are six figures baby, But.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
We can't get more followers without you right now listening,
jump on TikTok, Instagram or Facebook and join us there.
And if there's any other guests that you would like
us to interview. Maybe you're a parent, you're expecting and
you want more information just like me. If there's anyone
who you think would benefit you, benefit me, benefit people
of this country, let us know. Well said good, Let's
(46:18):
get out of here. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the
traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land,
see and community.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
peoples today
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com