November 16, 2025 • 40 mins
The dads are running off fumes this week!
Sleep expert (and founder of SwoopBaby) Sarah Clifton joins us to answer all your burning questions about kids and sleep. From night wakes to nap strikes and the dark art of keeping your child out of your bed, Sarah has your answers!
Learn more about Swoop Baby here: https://swoopbaby.com/
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https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ash.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Look at me, Look at me. I want to see
your face. I want to see your eyes. Okay, you
got a couple of little bags under there?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You get enough sleep? How are you sleeping? Have the
kids sleeping? More important?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
I usually sleep on my back. I found aside sleeper.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I don't sleeper.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Who you are? I was shocked, you know, when we
shared a bed. You start my pillow and you wake
up with pinker.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
My kids Right now, though, I do think that we've
not had any help at all, an external help, No
sleep specialist has come into this household until now. I
know the first time, and I do it's I would
say it's one of my biggest regrets, you know, not
getting not getting the help when it's needed.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
If you sprain your ankle, you go to a physio.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I just elevate it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
If you have a headache, you go the doctor.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I just take some at all if you can, all right,
and if your kids aren't sleeping, A lot of parents,
myself included, we just battle it out.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
You did put your ego aside and let someone in
your house and help you out.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
There's no there's no award, all right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
If you get to the finish line, you finished the
job of parenting, and you go, I've never seen a
sleep specialist. You don't get anything for it, no trophy,
there's no metal.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
There should be Well, no, there's shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
You need to get help, get support. It takes a village,
for God's sake. Well said, But we have a sleep specialist,
very first time as household. It is a family member
of mine, Sarah Clifton, who was the founder of Swoop Baby,
and she's here to tell us all the information that
we need as parents of young little ones how to
get them to sleep better.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Oh, I can't wait for this. Shall we just dive
straight into it?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Let's swoop into it.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Welcome back to two doting dads and one dorting mum.
I am Maddie j and I'm Sarah.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
And this is a podcast all about parenting.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
It is the good, it is the bad and the relatable.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
We don't often often, we don't really ever give advice,
but this is one of the few episodes where we
actually have an expert.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah me, thank me, thank you, a real expert.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Would you call yourself a sleep specialist? What's your official title?
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Yeah, baby and toddle asleep specialist?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So once I get past the title of stage, you're like,
as anyone ever said, like, we're a six year old
and you're like too odd.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
You already have someone you can pass them on to,
like this guy goes from six to eleven and so
on and so forth. No, you think by those stage
that they're sleeping.
Speaker 6 (02:37):
Yeah, I hope so, but no, look for strategies for
three year olds, five year old same as six year olds.
Yeah we can give it, and yeah, hopefully help you out.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I have a burning question. Now you do know Matt personally,
but I would like to know for you, what's the
most trouble as a child that you got into.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Oh, the first thing that comes to mind is probably
when I was a teenager, went to boarding school in
Sydney and anyway, all my parents release.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Or is that prison?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
That's prison?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's prison.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Prison.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
It's a lot of fun because we've got we get
into the Sydney life. You're from Orange, Yes, it's thirty
k's west of Orange.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So I apologize, we do, we do.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
For context, Sarah is the younger sister of my sister's husband.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Wow, that's a mouthful fact, is that right? Sister in law?
That's what I say yeah, should I swear it was orange?
Speaker 5 (03:38):
So well, I'm running already because we had the wedding there.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Maybe that's that's why it's thrown me.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
How we just ran out of town names, so we
started giving them colors.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
You've got to go past yellow to get the orange,
and if you go past orange and purple, you've gone
too far.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Was Sydney like a dawn As a teenagers it daunting
coming from Molong.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
I mean it's the big smoke in the country. Like
my long there was fifteen hundred people in the town.
So yeah, this one time we mum and dad were
down and we used to stay at this little house
in Freshy and Mum and dad were always very good
with us, like they just trusted us. We had a
lot of rope, like they were very fair and we
(04:20):
kind of weren't too naughty. But this, you know, Mum
used to take us to like we'd have a fake ida.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
She was okay with that. They'd take us to the
Wallaby bar, pick us up later.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Love that anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Produce suggestion was like what I was also a bit
like the cops? Can I just really quickly? How did
you get the fake idea?
Speaker 5 (04:36):
So it was one of the girls. The older girls
at Scope looked similar.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, we used to do that too.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
We got long hats easy.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
We had one we had. One of the boys was
a couple of years at two years older than ours
and we all used the same ideas. Every pub you
just had a bridge. We just would pass it in
and out of the PA.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
And often they're like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
You look trustworthy, come on yeah yeah, and I think
we're probably seventeen. Anyway, I was with one of my
besties and we used to go to Walli bar meat
Bell on his friends.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
I don't think they were there this.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Night, but met these two guys and we would like
had a couple of Margy's and we thought they were
like quite a bit older, and we pretended we're a
bit older and were fashion designers and there.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
I don't know one thing.
Speaker 6 (05:18):
Later to know, we're like, oh, you can come back
and stay to hours if you want come back.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Oh what too fresh here? And they were like, oh, yeah,
that was pretty good idea.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Our best mate, how far where you were with Fresh? Ye,
it's a good thirty minute uber.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, it's an investment.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
It's an investment. I don't know Anyway, we went back.
Speaker 6 (05:37):
They didn't realize that we were staying with my parents
and that we weren't actually twenty three. We were seventeen,
and we had one bedroom with two single bunk beds,
and nothing obviously happened. But woke up in the morning
and my sister came in and she's like, oh, Sarah,
Mum and Dad want you downstairs, and I was like,
oh yeah, like trying to be cool and still probably
(05:58):
a bit tips here, I was like, oh yeah, sure,
Oh no, I wouldn't be smiling if I was you.
And I was like, oh, went downstairs, and Dad's like,
who's in the bedroom.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
And I was like oh. And then it started getting
very awkward because.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I actually boys, the guys.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
Boys are in the bedroom, and did you know that?
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Yes, we brought them home, but like we weren't even
thinking nothing happened, but we were just like, oh, my.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Gosh, seventeen, you've got random man.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Yes, So it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
It wasn't, and it was pretty unexp like my dad
was shocked that I'd even done this, but anyway, so
it was. It got started getting bit embarrassing because I
didn't even know their names, and so Dad was like, Sarah,
you need to get up there. They need to go,
And I said, I know, but is it right if
we drive them to the ferry therefore?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Could she?
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Oh, you're not taking them anywhere? Dad was like, no,
you won't be driving them anyway. You can walk them
to the bus stop and anyway.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
So I had to go up. Bill was there. He
was a visicking a lot of mileage out of this one.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
So went upstairs and my friend hales I was like, guys,
we've got to go anyway. My dad and my mom,
my sister and my brother all downstairs just waiting for
us to come down, like the Walk of Shame couldn't
introduce this is Yeah. Anyway, one of the guys tried
to shake my dad's hand, and my brother's like, mind
your head on the way out, mate, like, and my
(07:23):
dad's yet nice, nice, had a way to meet anyway.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
He was polite to shake the hand. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
When we walked and I walked up to us, and
me and my friend had I'm like, what were we
even thinking?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Like you think I had no anyway? We've got here now.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
Went back home.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
My brother's like, Sarah like he looked like Spike from
notting Hill, like obviously like just not and so yeah
it wasn't it wasn't our best move and obviously like yeah,
nothing happened, but it was just one of those like
I wasn't thinking whatever yet we were like, yeah, we
felt really bad.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
That's good parenting. I think I would have just been erratic.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah the fuck. Yes.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
They were pretty good about it. He wasn't impressed, but
they were, and we felt terrible. I just remember we
wrote them a letter and because like they did the
lot fast.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
He was trying to be nice.
Speaker 6 (08:16):
Well there was it, honestly like but it was just
like one of them.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, you look back and go, why did I do that?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, so you used to work I'd say, advertising, But
how do you transition from working in the world of
marketing and advertising to then becoming a sleep specialist.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
So it all happened when I had Woolfee.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
A lot of people would say to me, oh, so
are you going to find that first year of motherhood
really tough? And even Mum she was like, you love
your sleep, You're going to find it really challenging. So
it was something I really wanted to learn more about
and kind of set us up for success in that respect.
So I just did a lot of research on sleep,
kind of found my groove more easily than I expected,
(08:58):
and that fourth trymester of the verse three months was
pretty good. I just put a few of those things
in place that I was reading about and then just
started passing on that knowledge. And swaddling was a big
thing for me. I was very passionate about swaddling, and
I believe.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
That really set the boys up for success.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
So I wanted to make these swaddles because I had
big boys and I couldn't find swattles that were big
enough to hold, and so that was kind of where
it started. I was thinking more product business and then thought,
do you know what I'm going to do the baby
in total of sleep consulting courses, thought leadership for the
product business and loved it, and yeah, I just started
passing on that knowledge and doing it on the side.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
So when you get a new customer and you have
a look at their child, like what's step one, You're like,
what's wrong with this thing?
Speaker 5 (09:41):
We sleep train from four months prior to that.
Speaker 6 (09:43):
It's night nannying, so we're just there to give parents respite,
take care of the baby overnight while you sleep. But
with sleep training from four months or sleep conditioning, we
look at we asked feeling inclining take form and understand
more about the sleep environment, because sometimes it's quick wins
with the sleep environment that can a massive impact on
their sleep. Also, feeding in nutrition is a big one
(10:04):
and I'm sure well I've found with Poppy recently, and
if you can get the feeding right and well established,
they're going to sleep much better. And the timing of
those feeds is really important in sleep. And even as
toddler is like, the food they're eating in nutrition impacts
their sleep. So that's a big one in a question
that I always ask. And then how are they getting
to sleep currently? There's lots of different associations that they
(10:25):
might need, and we want to encourage babies to fall
asleep independently. You know, all babies wake overnight, but if
they're not missing an association, they're able to roll over
and go back to sleep. But if they're being fed
to sleep or rock to sleep in your arms co sleep,
they wake up and their environment's changed, that's when they're
really alarmed and need to call out for you to
help them get back to sleep.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
There's conflicting reports, and there's so many different people putting
out information online.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I've read on the one hand.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
It's best to look at the queues for the baby
or toddler to show indicate that it's tired. You kind
of take that lead to them put them into their
sleep routine. Times you have to kind of force them
into a sleep routine before they're actually tired.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Is it a case of you.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Need to spoon feed the trial the sleep routine or
is it best to kind of flow the queues to
let the toddler know when they're tired toddlers.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Yeah, lots of conflicting information out there, and it makes
it really hard for parents to know what to do.
And I find if you know, you do one thing
and then you do another thing, and then all of
a sudden, your baby's very confused and it doesn't know
what it's doing. With newborns, for Poppy, like the first
six weeks, you just want to focus on that bonding time.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
And that connection and you can't get in bad habits.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So fine, it's fine to like, during the day have
a sleep in my arms.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Yes, absolutely fine to do that, cuddles all that, like,
no problem, I would say when it's no longer working
for you. We changed things, but from six weeks I
was very routine driven, and I loved a routine because
I felt it gave me flexibility. Sleep is a physicological need.
We need to ensure they're getting enough sleep. If they
get good sleep in the day, they're going to sleep
better at night. So being well across their wake windows
(11:57):
is key. And you think, like, it's six weeks, what's
the wake windows? One hour fifteen to one hour and
a half.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
That's it's especially feed most of that.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
And they feed most of that.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
So that includes feed and settle, and that's where I
find a lot of the challenge comes from because often
babies are kept up longer than that, they then become overtired,
deregulated cortisol adrenaline pumping makes it harder for them to
sleep and stay asleep, and that's when you start seeing
the thirty.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Minutes sleep induces sleep sleep Mate, sleep, sleep Soldier.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
What about during the day.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
At night time, obviously the room is nice and quiet
and there's not a lot of noise, But then during
the day, I'm kind.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Of busy, Laura is busy.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
There's a lot going on that's external noise things happening
at the moment. Pop is only probably sleeping like thirty
minute blocks during the day. Is that normal or should
I be more focused on giving her a better sleep
environment to sleep longer.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Yeah, so it is good if you can work on
longer napps. But again, babies are very unpredictable at this age,
so you do what you can, like if you can
focus on resettling even just for one of those naps,
because that'll definitely set her up for success. And once
she starts having longer naps, she's going to be sleeping
better at night as well.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Just to go off track here a little bit, when
you have your baby in the hospital and they're in
the nursery in the hospital, all the lights are on
and it's like, you know, like they do that. Then
you come home and you expected to make your sleep
environment and more comfortable.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Keep the light to play.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Lots of banging noise, yeah, when they're like more robust,
a lot of beeping, yeah, hospitals.
Speaker 6 (13:31):
Yeah, Well, when they're newborns, like it doesn't matter, like
the first first six weeks not a problem, but from
then on, Look, they've got the maternal melotonin in the
first three weeks from the chi and then that weighs off,
and then not until about eight weeks they start producing
their own melotonin, and you really want a nice dark
environment to help support that melotonin production.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
And yet light signals to the brain it's time to
be awake.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
So getting a nice dark environment is good if your
baby's not sleeping well. And I'm not always like, oh,
it's got to be black and you've got to have
the white nose. But if the baby's not saying well,
these sort of little things certainly.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Help because that's my worry.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And we've been away with friends before and they're like, well,
little timmy, well, only sleep. If it's like quiet as
a mouse. You can hear a pin drop. We need
to black out every single source of light. So it's
like black black, and I'm like, oh, for God's sake,
i can let them sleep wherever. If you make it
is that am I correct issue in that if you
make it too particular, that's hard to replicate outside of home.
(14:29):
You're setting yourself up for a tricky time.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
M You know, you can.
Speaker 6 (14:33):
Take portable blackout if they're really reliant on it, and again,
every baby's different.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
But if you've created that space.
Speaker 6 (14:38):
You can take the portable black out, you can definitely
take the portable white noise.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
You take their usual.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
Comforts, the slim bag or the swaddle, they're little comfort
of the dummy, whatever, and replicate that for them and
you're probably better chance.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Of them having good sleep when they're on holidays.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So, yeah, April did that. Whenever we travel or anything,
it would be there'd be a whole bag of things
that was like to make sure that she can replicate it,
and now we are thankful that she did that.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
Well they're just the little powerful sleep cues and they'll
tell the baby, yeah, it's time to sleep and it's
time to wind down.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
And so having those is yeah, really helpful.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So from six weeks, the wake period is between an
hour and a bit to hour and thirty. Yeah, when
does that start to lengthen.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
So twelve weeks then you'd be looking at an hour
and a half to an hour forty five yep. Four
months is about two hours, five months two hours, fifteen
six months two and a half hours.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
And that's when I like to try and get them
on a routine.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
By that point, right about how many weeks.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Definitely by six months. I mean babies thrive on routine.
Speaker 6 (15:39):
You can start getting them in a routine from six
weeks if you like, gentle routine following wake windows.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
From four to six months.
Speaker 6 (15:45):
Like a schedule for the three naps is good and
it's about wake windows, but also like you've got a
good guide on Okay, the nap one should be nine
thirty now two usually that lunchtime twelve thirty one ish,
and then the third pound nap on the gold of
for thirty.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
Two or five.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I want to shorten my kids wake windows now, I
would like to go backwards. I like them to be
awake less.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, four and six.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
If you are adhering to those sleep times and then
you're getting the environment sorted as well, and you're ticking
those boxes, but you're still struggling, At what point do
you then think, as a parent, well maybe I need helpier.
And then when do you then go from a sleep
consultant to then getting help from a GP.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
So, yeah, we obviously look at the behavioral side of sleep,
but there's definitely physical I guess red flags that you
would be looking for.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
We would recommend seeing a pediatrician in the.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Early early weeks like the first three months, Like, you
want the baby feeding well and putting on good weight.
So if they're not doing that, that's a bit of
a flag. If you're finding them really hard to set
up or they're inconsolable, you know, there is Colleague is
a thing, but you know it's worth.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
It if you're stressed. If you're stressed and it's then
it's definitely worth seeing a pediatrician when they're older, if
they're snoring, if they're mouth breathing, if they've got constant
ear infections or tons and lartest like those sort of
things can lay to sleep out near for example. That's
more physical stuff. So we'd always refer that out.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
How do we solve the mouth breathing?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
My kids are like, yeah, I was just going to
touch on that because friends of mine their kid had
their tonsils and adnoids out because he was having troubles
with his speech. Yeah, and then they started to realize
that he was actually really gasping for air when he
was sleeping. He was really tired, and really he was
sleeping but it wasn't He could tell that he wasn't comfortable,
(17:46):
and it was like, okay, well they got his tonsils
and adnoids out, and like it did a decent difference
in the house for sure, just to.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Get like mouth tape.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Can they have a four am I spar.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
The first twelve months when you're trying to implement the
sleep routine, and obviously kids get sick, you know, they
have like those regression moments. How do you make sure
you're still staying on track and stick into that routine.
Speaker 6 (18:14):
Yes, developmental leaps, teething sickness very common question with parents
and when we're sleep training that what do we do
when this sort of thing happens. The good news is
when babies are sleeping well, often they sail through the
developmental leaps and it hardly impacts their sleep. The teething again,
a lot of research has been done on that and
actually the teething pain is less overnight. It's not going
(18:37):
to often cause the night wakes, your blood pressures lower,
your body temperatures lower. If they're fine in the day,
they're not waking overnight because of teething. In terms of sickness,
still on a sleep train, if the baby's unwell, if
they've already slept trained and the baby becomes unwell, you
follow you respond as you need to, and if you
cannot throw everything out of the window with sleep train
(19:00):
of settling, then that's idea. And hopefully if they've learnt
sleep well like you, they will settle it a similar
way when they're unwell. But sleep is healing, so you know,
wanting to take longer naps and we go off the
routine when they're sick, absolutely fine, and when you when
they are better because they've learnt to sleep well, they'll
bounce back when you're consistent consistencies, keep consistent with your
settling and they'd get back on track with the timings
(19:21):
and they'll be absolutely fine.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Because I know where Macy is like a bit unwell,
she's you can tell that she wants to sleep more. Yeah,
and there's and it's like it might be four in
the afternoon, which is a horrible time to let have
a nap, but if she needs it, she needs it.
And it's like, look, if I'm going to have a
rough night now because of her, if she can get
some sort of reprieve, like I can get a letter, app.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
Work, Yeah, And when they're having those naps that four pm,
when they're not well, they're still going to sleep well,
because they just need it.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
They need that extra sleep when they're sick.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Obviously, every child, every family is different. I remember there
was there was a friend who I won't name, but
they were like, oh, yeah, the baby, we'll just just
sleep when it's tired.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I don't remember who.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Were like being like nine o'clock at night and the
baby was, like I say, a toddler was still just
like up and about and I.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Was like, oh my god, like the child is to sleep, well, well.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Yeah, like it does need But at the same time,
like if the parents are fine with that, you do
you You know, sleep is alone behavior, babies alone through
us being very consistent in our approach.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
If you're not ready for change or wanting it, you're
not going to be consistent.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
The baby's probably going to go backwards because they're very confused.
They protest and it's all a bit of a mess.
So do what's right for you, and when it's not right,
get help. When you'll be ready and you'll see great progress.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
But if I'm trying to get Poppy to put herself
to sleep, like the room is dark, there's a bit
of white noise, I'm swaddling her, give her the bottle
and I'd like to just pot it, put it down
in the cot, Like, how can I make her have
the ability to put herself to sleep?
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Yeah, so she's still really young, and assistance is absolutely fine.
If she's feeding well and she's put on good weight
and she's had a good feed off and they're quite content,
and you can put them down like swaddling his key obviously,
nice tight swattle.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Make sure the nap is clean.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
I mean, put it down and just see what she does.
There's no harm in doing that. And that's what I
used to do with my boys, and they very quickly
kind of learned how to get themselves off to sleep in.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Case there's no stimulation in the room. So they'll kind
of just be like, oh, I guess.
Speaker 6 (21:31):
I'll well if at poppies age, like, if you can
replicate that feeling of being in the womb. So you've
got a really nice tight swaddle, You've got the white
noise on because that's kind of the sound that she's
used to. It's a really nice temperature, it's nice and dark,
and she's had a good feed she'll be feeling really
nice and content. Yes, some do drift off, they don't
all absolutely not. And if they don't, that's when we
(21:52):
just get a nice consistent method. Shushpat is a good
one for your age.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Sushpat. You can start with shushpat when you've got her squatted, just.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Start by shush patting her up here or even like
in your arms in the cradle position, because then it's
easier to put her in the bassinet. And even just
when she's like even drowsy, then you put her in
the bassinet.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
You can even put her on the side.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That's great technique.
Speaker 6 (22:24):
If she gets upset, you go a bit harder with
the pats and a bit louder with the shushing.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
On the side.
Speaker 6 (22:32):
What's your rhythm of the she's getting tired and drowsy,
nearly there, yeah, slocked down and you tape it off, Yeah,
tape it off.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
You go, that's great technique. I'll let your practice on
me later down.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
And then do you then like tape her off to
like a yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:48):
And if and when I think she's they're nearly there,
I sort of just yeah, like lightly take my.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Hand off, and if they're kind of.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Then they go, yeah, we start again.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
But if not often yeah, but it can take you know,
it can take twenty thirty minutes. You can take time,
but the more you do it, the more consistent you are.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
That time decreases are you're trying to get him to
the point of just going to sleep, and then you
put them down because you like, is it true that
you don't want them to fall a sip in your
arms because then they get used to that that you
just still have like like ninety five percent.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yeah, yeah, he's spot on.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Yeah, but when but when they're old as a new
one for Poppy, like a young kidding. But when they're
four months onwards, when we know the neurologically mature enough
to self soothe, self settle, Yes, absolutely want to really
die back on that assistance.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
So they're falling asleep on their own.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah. When we got sort of stuck in the routine
of the shushpat with oscar as he got a little
bit older too, because I think he quite enjoyed it.
He enjoyed it so much that when we tried to
stop it and I looked in the camera, he was
spanking himself.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
He's like, oh, that's the spot.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And I was like, I've got the monitor and I'm like,
what is he doing? And I was like he's a
pat in himself. And it's like I remember the days.
I mean, Macy was thankfully not as bad as Oscar,
but yeah, the shushpat and it was a lot of
like body weight squats, if I'm honest.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Oh yeah, look, and a lot of parents like even
the bouncy ball.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
I'm seeing a lot of parents.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Get used to like bouncing their babies on a bounce ball.
And I always say my advice like, try and find
something that's sustainable, because that's pretty tiring enough on your step.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Count right now was through.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
My quads were huge.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
I'm lapping up and down the hallway behind you say,
it's just like is it because it replicates the motion
of being in the room.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Yeah, the motion.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
But as they get older, that can all become a
bit too much and it becomes a bit too stimulating
and it can actually disrupt.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Them more so that you get too much pat.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Yeah to hop back on it now get heavy and
you're like, oh sure.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Really, you've got a couple of questions because you don't
have a newborn unfortunately, as much as you love one.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
I'm a proud owner of a phaseectomy. Thank you, Matthew,
Thank goodness, Yes, I have got a four and a
six year old. Now, keeping in mind they share a room, Okay,
they love it. They love each other, thank god. But
my first question is they are different age and Macy's
not yet four and Oscar is probably six and a
(25:30):
half going on seven. So it's like, in terms of
the routine and the time of sleep, they go to
sleep at the same time.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Marley at the moment similar they share a room and
Marley Lola falls asleep straight away and Marley's there.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Like interesting, Lola's like, oh, they're on bunk beds and
you said lowers down the bottom.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, well that's probably a benefit for you, guys, because
mine is side by side like a prison cell. And
the main question is there for me, is at what
age do I start to change the routine up a
bit so they're comfortable with Oscars doesn't feel like he's
getting dutted out of the chance to stay up late,
and then Macy can get to sleep without being disrupted
(26:13):
by old chatter box over there that can't shut up.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
So if it's working for you and they're happy and
they're both going down pretty easily, there's no need to
change it.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
And for four and six year old's like seven pm
is still still really good?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Okay, good children?
Speaker 5 (26:29):
Under seven seven PM's great bedtime? And what time are.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
They going to yeah around there yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
And what time are they working up?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Around six o'clock ish, Yeah, it'll.
Speaker 6 (26:38):
Take Yeah, so that's perfect. They're getting eleven hours perfect.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Parents, are you're killing it?
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Ash? And yeah? I mean you get your back with
his seven pm bedtimes?
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Your son oscar becomes bedtime battles and he's really struggling
to get asleep. That's when you might go, cool, we
need to lame, stayup until seven thirty. But under seven
seven PM's great.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
The reasons they give for not wanting to go to bed,
I'm sure that you're probably you're a four and a
half year old now that probably it's like it's time
to go to bed. But they'll give any reason they
shouldn't go to bed. Do you have any techniques or
anything you can say to us that will help me
get through that moment without getting frustrated?
Speaker 5 (27:18):
Yeah, like the power plays and the.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
I'm so thirsty now if you've had four cups of water.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
My kid, or drink that it's drink bottling beds. Just
certainly I got away.
Speaker 6 (27:32):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'll wear the speak of
it at the moment, Like with Teddy's the naughty one
and he's like, oh, one more high five, some more tickles,
more tickles.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Oh I'm really I'm thirsty, and I'm like, I can
see what's going on here.
Speaker 6 (27:48):
You give them an inch and they take a and
that's that's the challenge. Like limits and boundaries is key,
and it's an incredibly part of parenting. So yeah, you
just got to be firm with your limits and boundary
and go look, at the end of the day, bed
time is important. We're going to do a nice wine
down and routain very consistent, predictable wine down, retain where
they get the connection the fun that time with you,
(28:08):
and then when it's bedtime, it's bedtime and it's kind
of not negotiable, so you just ignore these additional affairs
at spaed time.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, I was literally about you about that.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
There's been times where it's talking. I was like, can
I please have a tickle back? And I'm like, I'm
not fucking giving you anything, and then one time I
was like, you know what, I'll give you one minute
back tickle and then you go to sleep and she
had the one minute and I was like, I'm done now,
and she's like, cool, I got what I needed.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
It must have been a very good The next time
she like.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
She does she needs like a one minute took her back.
I mean, once it starts creeping in like one minute,
thirty two minutes, that's another story.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
But sometimes they just like you get your time.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
You kind of I was, I thought to myself, oh wow,
I like to sometimes it be a bit of a
dictator when it comes to putting the kids at the
bed and not letting them have anything that is. But
then I was like, oh, it kind of does sometimes
benefit to.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Just give them a little wind.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
Totally totally, and I encourage you like just with like
for them and decisions in the day. If you let
them have a bit of swaying, you know, what, what
dress are you wanting to these stress all these dress
and then they feel like more at ease and so
like if one minute tickles going get her asleep much sooner.
There's there's nothing wrong with that. It's when she needs
to go, okay, I want five minutes.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
We sort of like I sort of implement the once
you step. So they obviously shower and stuff, and then
they share a room, so once you step into your room,
the silliness is over. Like this is the spot they
never listen because it's like I'll walk away for a
second and then all of a sudden, they're like having something.
You know, they're doing something silly and April will be
enabling it and I'll be like oh, and then she'll
(29:46):
be like, yeah, she told just stop being silly. But
then it's like if I.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Just have that on record that Ash put the blame
on April for that one.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I always do. But like Matt was saying, it's kind
of like I've said to them a few times where
it's like like trying different things to get them to
shout up and go to sleep, where it's kind of
like you're in my time now and that makes me upset,
Like how would you hate it if I interrupted your time?
And it's kind of like they're like I don't get
what you mean.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Yeah, So how long are they it varies taking to
get to sleep?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Yeah, like look it can take they just I do
say sometimes to them, Look, I don't mind if you
guys interact quietly, Yeah, okay, because if I have to
be across the house and I can hear you giggling
and carrying on. There's no sleep happening there. But like
I've walked in and Oscar is fast asleep and makes
he's still talking to him, you know. But like I
(30:37):
would say, it's never unless they're absolutely wrecked. It's like
thirty forty five minutes. Yeah, like oh my god, yeah yeah.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Well look, it takes any human on average twayments get sleep.
And with my boys, I just think, look, if they're
having a little chat, like we can't make them go
to sleep.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Shut That's pretty much what I'm like.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
But it's if they're like being really not getting out
of better that sort of thing a few times. Yeah,
And it's just finding out what works for each child
and finding their currency and fool wolfy and deady, like
they love to have the.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
Door open, and that's fine.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
You can have the door open when you go to bed,
but if you get up, we're gonna have shut the door,
or if you keep talking, we're gonna have shut the door.
And that works for them, and I've tried that strategy
on other clients. It doesn't always work for the child.
We've got to find their currentcy in it four and
six and maybe they're a bit too old now, but
work with a lot of three year old's four year
olds and like rules and rewards is a good one,
(31:31):
Like these are the bedtime rules, and keep really simple.
Speaker 5 (31:34):
But you know, you close your eyes, the CLIs over,
you know, showing them what to do. Sometimes kids like
at that age when they're a bit older.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Like they literally yeah, forget the kind of what their
own arts, like, you forget they don't know how about
themselves to sleep?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah yeah, yeah, eyes go back.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
To basics and then go cool if you you know,
these are bedtime rules or bedtime manners, and you do
that and you get stick out or like what's their currency,
you know, going the beach for her, for the playground or.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Money?
Speaker 5 (32:05):
Yeah, so that can work.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
It's funny you just mentioned before you give them an
inch to take am mile. That's the thing. There's been
times be like oh look, okay, you guys, you can
talk quietly. But it's never it's never quietly. Is that
they're always like trying to push the boundary.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
You got the microphone in hand.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, they're just carrying. And then like lately Macy, who's she's
obsessed with mermaids. So she keeps tucking her feet into
the pillow like a mermaid. And then I walked past
the room and the legs there's a big flipper.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Go to Slade.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
We have some listening questions there And this was submitted
by the members of the Facebook group at two dads,
Do you want to get the first one?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Sure? My three year old is now in a habit
of coming into her bed each night, and it's getting
earlier and earlier. Tips on how to transition them back
into their bed.
Speaker 6 (32:59):
Yeah, it's come on a three and they're coming in
for that reassurance and just returning them to their room
and positive reinforcement and again going back to like at
three years of age. Role modeling is a big one.
So it's just they don't know. Hey, when I wake up,
they get into these habits. When I wake up, I
(33:20):
go into mom and Dad's bed. We just need to go, hey,
when you wake up, you grab your bunny or you
little toy sleep buddy, You close your eyes, you roll
over and drift.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Off to sleep again.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Yeah, because I suppose the way they I'm trying to
get on a child's level here, which is really easy.
Like I guess what they think is when I wake up,
I get out of bed and they don't know what
time it is, so they're like, well, I've woken up,
I'm getting out of bed.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
Yeah, And so then we've just got to be really yeah,
consistent with how we then handle it when they do
get up. So then we just take them back, hold
the hand, take them back, put them into bed times
time to sleep, no night's time sleep, and you know,
kind of keep it really boring. They're wanting that social interaction, yeah,
to maybe be in your bed, and you just got
to be consistent and talk to them. At three years
(34:04):
of age, they kind of know what they know.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
So good having to cuddle them.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So you would suggest if they get into your bed
and your like and they get in, you don't really
notice them when they get in, they fall asleep. Yeah,
I'm best not to pick her up and carry about.
I'm best like a gentle wake up and walk them
back and reassure them.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
And then yeah, oh look, if they're asleep in your
bed and they do the transfer, that's cool, but more
I would be trying to get them before they get
in from bed.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Gotcha, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
I here and coming sit in the room. You're like,
this question, is my two year old? How come he
will sleep great for one night and the next night
he'll be awake for say three to four hours.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
Ah.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
So yeah, the split night, the party at three am,
it's never a fun one. And often it's because there's
the timing's out, the sleep pressures out, or he's not
getting enough nap time in the day and that's going
to mean he's going into bed overtired, and that can
call was split nights and wait for a decent amount
of time, or he can be you know, slept too
(35:05):
much in the day so he just doesn't have that
sleep pressure over night and he's waking for a couple
of hours. So yeah, i'd be looking at the timing
of the naps and the time he's going to bed
and potentially having.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
To adjust that. At this age, Yeah, the nap would
be about an hour and a half in the day
of the day. And then you're wanting for our wake
window from that nap to.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Bed, right, because there's that old thing right where parents,
you got got to sleep through last night. Let's just
do exactly what we did last night, and it doesn't happen.
Is it just the case that maybe the roade night,
that mid day sleep which I miss that mid day sleep.
It was just a bit shorter, so that their wake
window is actually a bit longer now before you get
(35:49):
into that bedtime routine. So now they're overtired, which causes
the split. Yeah, genius.
Speaker 6 (35:53):
And look, it's also how they falling to sleep. If
they're self settling, no problem. But if they're missing an association,
they're waking up. They're wanting that. That's like a dummy.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
I remember with Oscar. My kids thankfully just gave up
the dummy. They didn't want it. But I remember early
days like before too, if it fell out of their mouth,
that's going to get that? Where is it? Right now?
All of a sudden, they're awake and it's a whole ordeal.
We're getting a split night sleep.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Yeah, I've got to teach them to find it.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I've got another one here. My one year old always
wakes up before five am. How do I get this
kid to sleep in longer?
Speaker 6 (36:27):
The early morning wakes are such a common one, it's
often the last to resolve. It's really hard to sleep
train at five am. You kind of want to do
whatever you can to get them back to sleep. But
often I mean the basic environmental stuff you want to
look at, making sure that you've got the white noise
on it. It's blocking any environmental noise of the gabos
or birds or whatever. You know, it's a nice environment.
(36:48):
It drops to its lowest temperature at three am, so
you know if they're too cold at five, they're going
to awake early, making sure the room's nice and dark at
five am, hopefully it is. And then like nutrition, are
you know, hungry? Are they waking because they're hungry? But
often at one like they're pretty well established on solids,
and that's that's not a reason. Again the nap timings
(37:09):
and the time they go to bed, and often people think, hey,
a later bedtimes, going in a later wake, and that's
not the same the case.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
Yeah, we want to get them into bed a bit earlier.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Do you think it is beneficial for kids to share
a room?
Speaker 6 (37:21):
Yes, I love it if it works for the kids, absolutely,
you know, there's always going to be some excitement around
the few weeks of them sharing a room and they'll
be chatting and doing all their things. But again, limits
boundaries a key, and yes, if they sleep well, often
the older one can help the younger one too, And yeah,
I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I feel like it's helped with them Marley and Lawla Bond.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
For sure. I recall just one of my wife's friends saying, oh,
some of my best memories were sharing rooms with my siblings,
you know, at that younger age, because it's kind of
like having to sleep over every night. As long as
they getting sleep. Yeah, and the prison cell together, the
meal comes sliding in under the doors, right.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
We always end on one question, and that is when
Teddy and Wolfie are no longer living at home, they've
grown up, when they've flown the nest, what is the
one thing you would want me to remember about the
house they grew up in.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
They're fun.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
We had have a good time, like, you know, dancing
before dinner all like, Yeah, they're fun, they have I
love it.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And I also love that you've offered to have a
night when Poppy is old enough to help her get
into a better routine.
Speaker 6 (38:23):
Yes, we'd love to so newborn nights. We can do that.
I'd love to do it now, now do it now?
Speaker 5 (38:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Do you have to wait until she transitions to a
bottle feed no, no, I.
Speaker 6 (38:35):
Mean if Laura, because I can just bring her into
Laura when she's due for a feed and then take her.
So Laura just literally gets upfeeds and goes back sleep.
I then sort to set or make sure she's getting sleep.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
So whenever you.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Want to thank you so much, Thank you Sarah so much. Guys,
I hope you after all that sleep dog.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Oh god, I feel like like that.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
If you found this episode somewhat enjoyable, mane beneficial, little
miss nuggets of information, but then please.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Do the right thing, just the leave a review, five stars, subscribe,
we'll share with the fred. This is why we're not
getting reviews.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
We started this podcast with one desire, and that was
to entertain the tired parents of this country. And what
did we ask for in your return? Nothing much, not money,
just a review, just one, one review, a few words
of your time.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
People aren't reviewing out of spite now, they're like, he
wants it too bad, I'm not giving it to him.
That's the last time I'm going to beg Okay, I
like it when you beg.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Also, you can find us on social media at two
Doting Dads, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and of course, now full
Wednesday episodes are on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Enjoy that as we enjoyed that. Sleep Talk Guys later.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Two Doting Dance Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
peoples today
Ash.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Look at me, Look at me. I want to see
your face. I want to see your eyes. Okay, you
got a couple of little bags under there?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You get enough sleep? How are you sleeping? Have the
kids sleeping? More important?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
I usually sleep on my back. I found aside sleeper.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I don't sleeper.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Who you are? I was shocked, you know, when we
shared a bed. You start my pillow and you wake
up with pinker.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
My kids Right now, though, I do think that we've
not had any help at all, an external help, No
sleep specialist has come into this household until now. I
know the first time, and I do it's I would
say it's one of my biggest regrets, you know, not
getting not getting the help when it's needed.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
If you sprain your ankle, you go to a physio.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I just elevate it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
If you have a headache, you go the doctor.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I just take some at all if you can, all right,
and if your kids aren't sleeping, A lot of parents,
myself included, we just battle it out.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
You did put your ego aside and let someone in
your house and help you out.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
There's no there's no award, all right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
If you get to the finish line, you finished the
job of parenting, and you go, I've never seen a
sleep specialist. You don't get anything for it, no trophy,
there's no metal.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
There should be Well, no, there's shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
You need to get help, get support. It takes a village,
for God's sake. Well said, But we have a sleep specialist,
very first time as household. It is a family member
of mine, Sarah Clifton, who was the founder of Swoop Baby,
and she's here to tell us all the information that
we need as parents of young little ones how to
get them to sleep better.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Oh, I can't wait for this. Shall we just dive
straight into it?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Let's swoop into it.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Welcome back to two doting dads and one dorting mum.
I am Maddie j and I'm Sarah.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
And this is a podcast all about parenting.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
It is the good, it is the bad and the relatable.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
We don't often often, we don't really ever give advice,
but this is one of the few episodes where we
actually have an expert.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah me, thank me, thank you, a real expert.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Would you call yourself a sleep specialist? What's your official title?
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Yeah, baby and toddle asleep specialist?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So once I get past the title of stage, you're like,
as anyone ever said, like, we're a six year old
and you're like too odd.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
You already have someone you can pass them on to,
like this guy goes from six to eleven and so
on and so forth. No, you think by those stage
that they're sleeping.
Speaker 6 (02:37):
Yeah, I hope so, but no, look for strategies for
three year olds, five year old same as six year olds.
Yeah we can give it, and yeah, hopefully help you out.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I have a burning question. Now you do know Matt personally,
but I would like to know for you, what's the
most trouble as a child that you got into.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Oh, the first thing that comes to mind is probably
when I was a teenager, went to boarding school in
Sydney and anyway, all my parents release.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Or is that prison?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
That's prison?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's prison.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Prison.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
It's a lot of fun because we've got we get
into the Sydney life. You're from Orange, Yes, it's thirty
k's west of Orange.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So I apologize, we do, we do.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
For context, Sarah is the younger sister of my sister's husband.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Wow, that's a mouthful fact, is that right? Sister in law?
That's what I say yeah, should I swear it was orange?
Speaker 5 (03:38):
So well, I'm running already because we had the wedding there.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Maybe that's that's why it's thrown me.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
How we just ran out of town names, so we
started giving them colors.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
You've got to go past yellow to get the orange,
and if you go past orange and purple, you've gone
too far.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Was Sydney like a dawn As a teenagers it daunting
coming from Molong.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
I mean it's the big smoke in the country. Like
my long there was fifteen hundred people in the town.
So yeah, this one time we mum and dad were
down and we used to stay at this little house
in Freshy and Mum and dad were always very good
with us, like they just trusted us. We had a
lot of rope, like they were very fair and we
(04:20):
kind of weren't too naughty. But this, you know, Mum
used to take us to like we'd have a fake ida.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
She was okay with that. They'd take us to the
Wallaby bar, pick us up later.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Love that anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Produce suggestion was like what I was also a bit
like the cops? Can I just really quickly? How did
you get the fake idea?
Speaker 5 (04:36):
So it was one of the girls. The older girls
at Scope looked similar.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, we used to do that too.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
We got long hats easy.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
We had one we had. One of the boys was
a couple of years at two years older than ours
and we all used the same ideas. Every pub you
just had a bridge. We just would pass it in
and out of the PA.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
And often they're like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
You look trustworthy, come on yeah yeah, and I think
we're probably seventeen. Anyway, I was with one of my
besties and we used to go to Walli bar meat
Bell on his friends.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
I don't think they were there this.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Night, but met these two guys and we would like
had a couple of Margy's and we thought they were
like quite a bit older, and we pretended we're a
bit older and were fashion designers and there.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
I don't know one thing.
Speaker 6 (05:18):
Later to know, we're like, oh, you can come back
and stay to hours if you want come back.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Oh what too fresh here? And they were like, oh, yeah,
that was pretty good idea.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Our best mate, how far where you were with Fresh? Ye,
it's a good thirty minute uber.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, it's an investment.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
It's an investment. I don't know Anyway, we went back.
Speaker 6 (05:37):
They didn't realize that we were staying with my parents
and that we weren't actually twenty three. We were seventeen,
and we had one bedroom with two single bunk beds,
and nothing obviously happened. But woke up in the morning
and my sister came in and she's like, oh, Sarah,
Mum and Dad want you downstairs, and I was like,
oh yeah, like trying to be cool and still probably
(05:58):
a bit tips here, I was like, oh yeah, sure,
Oh no, I wouldn't be smiling if I was you.
And I was like, oh, went downstairs, and Dad's like,
who's in the bedroom.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
And I was like oh. And then it started getting
very awkward because.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I actually boys, the guys.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
Boys are in the bedroom, and did you know that?
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Yes, we brought them home, but like we weren't even
thinking nothing happened, but we were just like, oh, my.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Gosh, seventeen, you've got random man.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Yes, So it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
It wasn't, and it was pretty unexp like my dad
was shocked that I'd even done this, but anyway, so
it was. It got started getting bit embarrassing because I
didn't even know their names, and so Dad was like, Sarah,
you need to get up there. They need to go,
And I said, I know, but is it right if
we drive them to the ferry therefore?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Could she?
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Oh, you're not taking them anywhere? Dad was like, no,
you won't be driving them anyway. You can walk them
to the bus stop and anyway.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
So I had to go up. Bill was there. He
was a visicking a lot of mileage out of this one.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
So went upstairs and my friend hales I was like, guys,
we've got to go anyway. My dad and my mom,
my sister and my brother all downstairs just waiting for
us to come down, like the Walk of Shame couldn't
introduce this is Yeah. Anyway, one of the guys tried
to shake my dad's hand, and my brother's like, mind
your head on the way out, mate, like, and my
(07:23):
dad's yet nice, nice, had a way to meet anyway.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
He was polite to shake the hand. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
When we walked and I walked up to us, and
me and my friend had I'm like, what were we
even thinking?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Like you think I had no anyway? We've got here now.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
Went back home.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
My brother's like, Sarah like he looked like Spike from
notting Hill, like obviously like just not and so yeah
it wasn't it wasn't our best move and obviously like yeah,
nothing happened, but it was just one of those like
I wasn't thinking whatever yet we were like, yeah, we
felt really bad.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
That's good parenting. I think I would have just been erratic.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah the fuck. Yes.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
They were pretty good about it. He wasn't impressed, but
they were, and we felt terrible. I just remember we
wrote them a letter and because like they did the
lot fast.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
He was trying to be nice.
Speaker 6 (08:16):
Well there was it, honestly like but it was just
like one of them.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, you look back and go, why did I do that?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, so you used to work I'd say, advertising, But
how do you transition from working in the world of
marketing and advertising to then becoming a sleep specialist.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
So it all happened when I had Woolfee.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
A lot of people would say to me, oh, so
are you going to find that first year of motherhood
really tough? And even Mum she was like, you love
your sleep, You're going to find it really challenging. So
it was something I really wanted to learn more about
and kind of set us up for success in that respect.
So I just did a lot of research on sleep,
kind of found my groove more easily than I expected,
(08:58):
and that fourth trymester of the verse three months was
pretty good. I just put a few of those things
in place that I was reading about and then just
started passing on that knowledge. And swaddling was a big
thing for me. I was very passionate about swaddling, and
I believe.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
That really set the boys up for success.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
So I wanted to make these swaddles because I had
big boys and I couldn't find swattles that were big
enough to hold, and so that was kind of where
it started. I was thinking more product business and then thought,
do you know what I'm going to do the baby
in total of sleep consulting courses, thought leadership for the
product business and loved it, and yeah, I just started
passing on that knowledge and doing it on the side.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
So when you get a new customer and you have
a look at their child, like what's step one, You're like,
what's wrong with this thing?
Speaker 5 (09:41):
We sleep train from four months prior to that.
Speaker 6 (09:43):
It's night nannying, so we're just there to give parents respite,
take care of the baby overnight while you sleep. But
with sleep training from four months or sleep conditioning, we
look at we asked feeling inclining take form and understand
more about the sleep environment, because sometimes it's quick wins
with the sleep environment that can a massive impact on
their sleep. Also, feeding in nutrition is a big one
(10:04):
and I'm sure well I've found with Poppy recently, and
if you can get the feeding right and well established,
they're going to sleep much better. And the timing of
those feeds is really important in sleep. And even as
toddler is like, the food they're eating in nutrition impacts
their sleep. So that's a big one in a question
that I always ask. And then how are they getting
to sleep currently? There's lots of different associations that they
(10:25):
might need, and we want to encourage babies to fall
asleep independently. You know, all babies wake overnight, but if
they're not missing an association, they're able to roll over
and go back to sleep. But if they're being fed
to sleep or rock to sleep in your arms co sleep,
they wake up and their environment's changed, that's when they're
really alarmed and need to call out for you to
help them get back to sleep.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
There's conflicting reports, and there's so many different people putting
out information online.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I've read on the one hand.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
It's best to look at the queues for the baby
or toddler to show indicate that it's tired. You kind
of take that lead to them put them into their
sleep routine. Times you have to kind of force them
into a sleep routine before they're actually tired.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Is it a case of you.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Need to spoon feed the trial the sleep routine or
is it best to kind of flow the queues to
let the toddler know when they're tired toddlers.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Yeah, lots of conflicting information out there, and it makes
it really hard for parents to know what to do.
And I find if you know, you do one thing
and then you do another thing, and then all of
a sudden, your baby's very confused and it doesn't know
what it's doing. With newborns, for Poppy, like the first
six weeks, you just want to focus on that bonding time.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
And that connection and you can't get in bad habits.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So fine, it's fine to like, during the day have
a sleep in my arms.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Yes, absolutely fine to do that, cuddles all that, like,
no problem, I would say when it's no longer working
for you. We changed things, but from six weeks I
was very routine driven, and I loved a routine because
I felt it gave me flexibility. Sleep is a physicological need.
We need to ensure they're getting enough sleep. If they
get good sleep in the day, they're going to sleep
better at night. So being well across their wake windows
(11:57):
is key. And you think, like, it's six weeks, what's
the wake windows? One hour fifteen to one hour and
a half.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
That's it's especially feed most of that.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
And they feed most of that.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
So that includes feed and settle, and that's where I
find a lot of the challenge comes from because often
babies are kept up longer than that, they then become overtired,
deregulated cortisol adrenaline pumping makes it harder for them to
sleep and stay asleep, and that's when you start seeing
the thirty.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Minutes sleep induces sleep sleep Mate, sleep, sleep Soldier.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
What about during the day.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
At night time, obviously the room is nice and quiet
and there's not a lot of noise, But then during
the day, I'm kind.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Of busy, Laura is busy.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
There's a lot going on that's external noise things happening
at the moment. Pop is only probably sleeping like thirty
minute blocks during the day. Is that normal or should
I be more focused on giving her a better sleep
environment to sleep longer.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Yeah, so it is good if you can work on
longer napps. But again, babies are very unpredictable at this age,
so you do what you can, like if you can
focus on resettling even just for one of those naps,
because that'll definitely set her up for success. And once
she starts having longer naps, she's going to be sleeping
better at night as well.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Just to go off track here a little bit, when
you have your baby in the hospital and they're in
the nursery in the hospital, all the lights are on
and it's like, you know, like they do that. Then
you come home and you expected to make your sleep
environment and more comfortable.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Keep the light to play.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Lots of banging noise, yeah, when they're like more robust,
a lot of beeping, yeah, hospitals.
Speaker 6 (13:31):
Yeah, Well, when they're newborns, like it doesn't matter, like
the first first six weeks not a problem, but from
then on, Look, they've got the maternal melotonin in the
first three weeks from the chi and then that weighs off,
and then not until about eight weeks they start producing
their own melotonin, and you really want a nice dark
environment to help support that melotonin production.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
And yet light signals to the brain it's time to
be awake.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
So getting a nice dark environment is good if your
baby's not sleeping well. And I'm not always like, oh,
it's got to be black and you've got to have
the white nose. But if the baby's not saying well,
these sort of little things certainly.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Help because that's my worry.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And we've been away with friends before and they're like, well,
little timmy, well, only sleep. If it's like quiet as
a mouse. You can hear a pin drop. We need
to black out every single source of light. So it's
like black black, and I'm like, oh, for God's sake,
i can let them sleep wherever. If you make it
is that am I correct issue in that if you
make it too particular, that's hard to replicate outside of home.
(14:29):
You're setting yourself up for a tricky time.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
M You know, you can.
Speaker 6 (14:33):
Take portable blackout if they're really reliant on it, and again,
every baby's different.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
But if you've created that space.
Speaker 6 (14:38):
You can take the portable black out, you can definitely
take the portable white noise.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
You take their usual.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
Comforts, the slim bag or the swaddle, they're little comfort
of the dummy, whatever, and replicate that for them and
you're probably better chance.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Of them having good sleep when they're on holidays.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So, yeah, April did that. Whenever we travel or anything,
it would be there'd be a whole bag of things
that was like to make sure that she can replicate it,
and now we are thankful that she did that.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
Well they're just the little powerful sleep cues and they'll
tell the baby, yeah, it's time to sleep and it's
time to wind down.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
And so having those is yeah, really helpful.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So from six weeks, the wake period is between an
hour and a bit to hour and thirty. Yeah, when
does that start to lengthen.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
So twelve weeks then you'd be looking at an hour
and a half to an hour forty five yep. Four
months is about two hours, five months two hours, fifteen
six months two and a half hours.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
And that's when I like to try and get them
on a routine.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
By that point, right about how many weeks.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Definitely by six months. I mean babies thrive on routine.
Speaker 6 (15:39):
You can start getting them in a routine from six
weeks if you like, gentle routine following wake windows.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
From four to six months.
Speaker 6 (15:45):
Like a schedule for the three naps is good and
it's about wake windows, but also like you've got a
good guide on Okay, the nap one should be nine
thirty now two usually that lunchtime twelve thirty one ish,
and then the third pound nap on the gold of
for thirty.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
Two or five.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I want to shorten my kids wake windows now, I
would like to go backwards. I like them to be
awake less.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, four and six.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
If you are adhering to those sleep times and then
you're getting the environment sorted as well, and you're ticking
those boxes, but you're still struggling, At what point do
you then think, as a parent, well maybe I need helpier.
And then when do you then go from a sleep
consultant to then getting help from a GP.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
So, yeah, we obviously look at the behavioral side of sleep,
but there's definitely physical I guess red flags that you
would be looking for.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
We would recommend seeing a pediatrician in the.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Early early weeks like the first three months, Like, you
want the baby feeding well and putting on good weight.
So if they're not doing that, that's a bit of
a flag. If you're finding them really hard to set
up or they're inconsolable, you know, there is Colleague is
a thing, but you know it's worth.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
It if you're stressed. If you're stressed and it's then
it's definitely worth seeing a pediatrician when they're older, if
they're snoring, if they're mouth breathing, if they've got constant
ear infections or tons and lartest like those sort of
things can lay to sleep out near for example. That's
more physical stuff. So we'd always refer that out.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
How do we solve the mouth breathing?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
My kids are like, yeah, I was just going to
touch on that because friends of mine their kid had
their tonsils and adnoids out because he was having troubles
with his speech. Yeah, and then they started to realize
that he was actually really gasping for air when he
was sleeping. He was really tired, and really he was
sleeping but it wasn't He could tell that he wasn't comfortable,
(17:46):
and it was like, okay, well they got his tonsils
and adnoids out, and like it did a decent difference
in the house for sure, just to.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Get like mouth tape.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Can they have a four am I spar.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
The first twelve months when you're trying to implement the
sleep routine, and obviously kids get sick, you know, they
have like those regression moments. How do you make sure
you're still staying on track and stick into that routine.
Speaker 6 (18:14):
Yes, developmental leaps, teething sickness very common question with parents
and when we're sleep training that what do we do
when this sort of thing happens. The good news is
when babies are sleeping well, often they sail through the
developmental leaps and it hardly impacts their sleep. The teething again,
a lot of research has been done on that and
actually the teething pain is less overnight. It's not going
(18:37):
to often cause the night wakes, your blood pressures lower,
your body temperatures lower. If they're fine in the day,
they're not waking overnight because of teething. In terms of sickness,
still on a sleep train, if the baby's unwell, if
they've already slept trained and the baby becomes unwell, you
follow you respond as you need to, and if you
cannot throw everything out of the window with sleep train
(19:00):
of settling, then that's idea. And hopefully if they've learnt
sleep well like you, they will settle it a similar
way when they're unwell. But sleep is healing, so you know,
wanting to take longer naps and we go off the
routine when they're sick, absolutely fine, and when you when
they are better because they've learnt to sleep well, they'll
bounce back when you're consistent consistencies, keep consistent with your
settling and they'd get back on track with the timings
(19:21):
and they'll be absolutely fine.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Because I know where Macy is like a bit unwell,
she's you can tell that she wants to sleep more. Yeah,
and there's and it's like it might be four in
the afternoon, which is a horrible time to let have
a nap, but if she needs it, she needs it.
And it's like, look, if I'm going to have a
rough night now because of her, if she can get
some sort of reprieve, like I can get a letter, app.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
Work, Yeah, And when they're having those naps that four pm,
when they're not well, they're still going to sleep well,
because they just need it.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
They need that extra sleep when they're sick.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Obviously, every child, every family is different. I remember there
was there was a friend who I won't name, but
they were like, oh, yeah, the baby, we'll just just
sleep when it's tired.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I don't remember who.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Were like being like nine o'clock at night and the
baby was, like I say, a toddler was still just
like up and about and I.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Was like, oh my god, like the child is to sleep, well, well.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Yeah, like it does need But at the same time,
like if the parents are fine with that, you do
you You know, sleep is alone behavior, babies alone through
us being very consistent in our approach.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
If you're not ready for change or wanting it, you're
not going to be consistent.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
The baby's probably going to go backwards because they're very confused.
They protest and it's all a bit of a mess.
So do what's right for you, and when it's not right,
get help. When you'll be ready and you'll see great progress.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
But if I'm trying to get Poppy to put herself
to sleep, like the room is dark, there's a bit
of white noise, I'm swaddling her, give her the bottle
and I'd like to just pot it, put it down
in the cot, Like, how can I make her have
the ability to put herself to sleep?
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Yeah, so she's still really young, and assistance is absolutely fine.
If she's feeding well and she's put on good weight
and she's had a good feed off and they're quite content,
and you can put them down like swaddling his key obviously,
nice tight swattle.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Make sure the nap is clean.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
I mean, put it down and just see what she does.
There's no harm in doing that. And that's what I
used to do with my boys, and they very quickly
kind of learned how to get themselves off to sleep in.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Case there's no stimulation in the room. So they'll kind
of just be like, oh, I guess.
Speaker 6 (21:31):
I'll well if at poppies age, like, if you can
replicate that feeling of being in the womb. So you've
got a really nice tight swaddle, You've got the white
noise on because that's kind of the sound that she's
used to. It's a really nice temperature, it's nice and dark,
and she's had a good feed she'll be feeling really
nice and content. Yes, some do drift off, they don't
all absolutely not. And if they don't, that's when we
(21:52):
just get a nice consistent method. Shushpat is a good
one for your age.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Sushpat. You can start with shushpat when you've got her squatted, just.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Start by shush patting her up here or even like
in your arms in the cradle position, because then it's
easier to put her in the bassinet. And even just
when she's like even drowsy, then you put her in
the bassinet.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
You can even put her on the side.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That's great technique.
Speaker 6 (22:24):
If she gets upset, you go a bit harder with
the pats and a bit louder with the shushing.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
On the side.
Speaker 6 (22:32):
What's your rhythm of the she's getting tired and drowsy,
nearly there, yeah, slocked down and you tape it off, Yeah,
tape it off.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
You go, that's great technique. I'll let your practice on
me later down.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
And then do you then like tape her off to
like a yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:48):
And if and when I think she's they're nearly there,
I sort of just yeah, like lightly take my.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Hand off, and if they're kind of.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Then they go, yeah, we start again.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
But if not often yeah, but it can take you know,
it can take twenty thirty minutes. You can take time,
but the more you do it, the more consistent you are.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
That time decreases are you're trying to get him to
the point of just going to sleep, and then you
put them down because you like, is it true that
you don't want them to fall a sip in your
arms because then they get used to that that you
just still have like like ninety five percent.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yeah, yeah, he's spot on.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Yeah, but when but when they're old as a new
one for Poppy, like a young kidding. But when they're
four months onwards, when we know the neurologically mature enough
to self soothe, self settle, Yes, absolutely want to really
die back on that assistance.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
So they're falling asleep on their own.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah. When we got sort of stuck in the routine
of the shushpat with oscar as he got a little
bit older too, because I think he quite enjoyed it.
He enjoyed it so much that when we tried to
stop it and I looked in the camera, he was
spanking himself.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
He's like, oh, that's the spot.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And I was like, I've got the monitor and I'm like,
what is he doing? And I was like he's a
pat in himself. And it's like I remember the days.
I mean, Macy was thankfully not as bad as Oscar,
but yeah, the shushpat and it was a lot of
like body weight squats, if I'm honest.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Oh yeah, look, and a lot of parents like even
the bouncy ball.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
I'm seeing a lot of parents.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Get used to like bouncing their babies on a bounce ball.
And I always say my advice like, try and find
something that's sustainable, because that's pretty tiring enough on your step.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Count right now was through.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
My quads were huge.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
I'm lapping up and down the hallway behind you say,
it's just like is it because it replicates the motion
of being in the room.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Yeah, the motion.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
But as they get older, that can all become a
bit too much and it becomes a bit too stimulating
and it can actually disrupt.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Them more so that you get too much pat.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Yeah to hop back on it now get heavy and
you're like, oh sure.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Really, you've got a couple of questions because you don't
have a newborn unfortunately, as much as you love one.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
I'm a proud owner of a phaseectomy. Thank you, Matthew,
Thank goodness, Yes, I have got a four and a
six year old. Now, keeping in mind they share a room, Okay,
they love it. They love each other, thank god. But
my first question is they are different age and Macy's
not yet four and Oscar is probably six and a
(25:30):
half going on seven. So it's like, in terms of
the routine and the time of sleep, they go to
sleep at the same time.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Marley at the moment similar they share a room and
Marley Lola falls asleep straight away and Marley's there.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Like interesting, Lola's like, oh, they're on bunk beds and
you said lowers down the bottom.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, well that's probably a benefit for you, guys, because
mine is side by side like a prison cell. And
the main question is there for me, is at what
age do I start to change the routine up a
bit so they're comfortable with Oscars doesn't feel like he's
getting dutted out of the chance to stay up late,
and then Macy can get to sleep without being disrupted
(26:13):
by old chatter box over there that can't shut up.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
So if it's working for you and they're happy and
they're both going down pretty easily, there's no need to
change it.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
And for four and six year old's like seven pm
is still still really good?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Okay, good children?
Speaker 5 (26:29):
Under seven seven PM's great bedtime? And what time are.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
They going to yeah around there yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
And what time are they working up?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Around six o'clock ish, Yeah, it'll.
Speaker 6 (26:38):
Take Yeah, so that's perfect. They're getting eleven hours perfect.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Parents, are you're killing it?
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Ash? And yeah? I mean you get your back with
his seven pm bedtimes?
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Your son oscar becomes bedtime battles and he's really struggling
to get asleep. That's when you might go, cool, we
need to lame, stayup until seven thirty. But under seven
seven PM's great.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
The reasons they give for not wanting to go to bed,
I'm sure that you're probably you're a four and a
half year old now that probably it's like it's time
to go to bed. But they'll give any reason they
shouldn't go to bed. Do you have any techniques or
anything you can say to us that will help me
get through that moment without getting frustrated?
Speaker 5 (27:18):
Yeah, like the power plays and the.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
I'm so thirsty now if you've had four cups of water.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
My kid, or drink that it's drink bottling beds. Just
certainly I got away.
Speaker 6 (27:32):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'll wear the speak of
it at the moment, Like with Teddy's the naughty one
and he's like, oh, one more high five, some more tickles,
more tickles.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Oh I'm really I'm thirsty, and I'm like, I can
see what's going on here.
Speaker 6 (27:48):
You give them an inch and they take a and
that's that's the challenge. Like limits and boundaries is key,
and it's an incredibly part of parenting. So yeah, you
just got to be firm with your limits and boundary
and go look, at the end of the day, bed
time is important. We're going to do a nice wine
down and routain very consistent, predictable wine down, retain where
they get the connection the fun that time with you,
(28:08):
and then when it's bedtime, it's bedtime and it's kind
of not negotiable, so you just ignore these additional affairs
at spaed time.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, I was literally about you about that.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
There's been times where it's talking. I was like, can
I please have a tickle back? And I'm like, I'm
not fucking giving you anything, and then one time I
was like, you know what, I'll give you one minute
back tickle and then you go to sleep and she
had the one minute and I was like, I'm done now,
and she's like, cool, I got what I needed.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
It must have been a very good The next time
she like.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
She does she needs like a one minute took her back.
I mean, once it starts creeping in like one minute,
thirty two minutes, that's another story.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
But sometimes they just like you get your time.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
You kind of I was, I thought to myself, oh wow,
I like to sometimes it be a bit of a
dictator when it comes to putting the kids at the
bed and not letting them have anything that is. But
then I was like, oh, it kind of does sometimes
benefit to.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Just give them a little wind.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
Totally totally, and I encourage you like just with like
for them and decisions in the day. If you let
them have a bit of swaying, you know, what, what
dress are you wanting to these stress all these dress
and then they feel like more at ease and so
like if one minute tickles going get her asleep much sooner.
There's there's nothing wrong with that. It's when she needs
to go, okay, I want five minutes.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
We sort of like I sort of implement the once
you step. So they obviously shower and stuff, and then
they share a room, so once you step into your room,
the silliness is over. Like this is the spot they
never listen because it's like I'll walk away for a
second and then all of a sudden, they're like having something.
You know, they're doing something silly and April will be
enabling it and I'll be like oh, and then she'll
(29:46):
be like, yeah, she told just stop being silly. But
then it's like if I.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Just have that on record that Ash put the blame
on April for that one.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I always do. But like Matt was saying, it's kind
of like I've said to them a few times where
it's like like trying different things to get them to
shout up and go to sleep, where it's kind of
like you're in my time now and that makes me upset,
Like how would you hate it if I interrupted your time?
And it's kind of like they're like I don't get
what you mean.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Yeah, So how long are they it varies taking to
get to sleep?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Yeah, like look it can take they just I do
say sometimes to them, Look, I don't mind if you
guys interact quietly, Yeah, okay, because if I have to
be across the house and I can hear you giggling
and carrying on. There's no sleep happening there. But like
I've walked in and Oscar is fast asleep and makes
he's still talking to him, you know. But like I
(30:37):
would say, it's never unless they're absolutely wrecked. It's like
thirty forty five minutes. Yeah, like oh my god, yeah yeah.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Well look, it takes any human on average twayments get sleep.
And with my boys, I just think, look, if they're
having a little chat, like we can't make them go
to sleep.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Shut That's pretty much what I'm like.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
But it's if they're like being really not getting out
of better that sort of thing a few times. Yeah,
And it's just finding out what works for each child
and finding their currency and fool wolfy and deady, like
they love to have the.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
Door open, and that's fine.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
You can have the door open when you go to bed,
but if you get up, we're gonna have shut the door,
or if you keep talking, we're gonna have shut the door.
And that works for them, and I've tried that strategy
on other clients. It doesn't always work for the child.
We've got to find their currentcy in it four and
six and maybe they're a bit too old now, but
work with a lot of three year old's four year
olds and like rules and rewards is a good one,
(31:31):
Like these are the bedtime rules, and keep really simple.
Speaker 5 (31:34):
But you know, you close your eyes, the CLIs over,
you know, showing them what to do. Sometimes kids like
at that age when they're a bit older.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Like they literally yeah, forget the kind of what their
own arts, like, you forget they don't know how about
themselves to sleep?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah yeah, yeah, eyes go back.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
To basics and then go cool if you you know,
these are bedtime rules or bedtime manners, and you do
that and you get stick out or like what's their currency,
you know, going the beach for her, for the playground or.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Money?
Speaker 5 (32:05):
Yeah, so that can work.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
It's funny you just mentioned before you give them an
inch to take am mile. That's the thing. There's been
times be like oh look, okay, you guys, you can
talk quietly. But it's never it's never quietly. Is that
they're always like trying to push the boundary.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
You got the microphone in hand.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, they're just carrying. And then like lately Macy, who's she's
obsessed with mermaids. So she keeps tucking her feet into
the pillow like a mermaid. And then I walked past
the room and the legs there's a big flipper.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Go to Slade.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
We have some listening questions there And this was submitted
by the members of the Facebook group at two dads,
Do you want to get the first one?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Sure? My three year old is now in a habit
of coming into her bed each night, and it's getting
earlier and earlier. Tips on how to transition them back
into their bed.
Speaker 6 (32:59):
Yeah, it's come on a three and they're coming in
for that reassurance and just returning them to their room
and positive reinforcement and again going back to like at
three years of age. Role modeling is a big one.
So it's just they don't know. Hey, when I wake up,
they get into these habits. When I wake up, I
(33:20):
go into mom and Dad's bed. We just need to go, hey,
when you wake up, you grab your bunny or you
little toy sleep buddy, You close your eyes, you roll
over and drift.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Off to sleep again.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Yeah, because I suppose the way they I'm trying to
get on a child's level here, which is really easy.
Like I guess what they think is when I wake up,
I get out of bed and they don't know what
time it is, so they're like, well, I've woken up,
I'm getting out of bed.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
Yeah, And so then we've just got to be really yeah,
consistent with how we then handle it when they do
get up. So then we just take them back, hold
the hand, take them back, put them into bed times
time to sleep, no night's time sleep, and you know,
kind of keep it really boring. They're wanting that social interaction, yeah,
to maybe be in your bed, and you just got
to be consistent and talk to them. At three years
(34:04):
of age, they kind of know what they know.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
So good having to cuddle them.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So you would suggest if they get into your bed
and your like and they get in, you don't really
notice them when they get in, they fall asleep. Yeah,
I'm best not to pick her up and carry about.
I'm best like a gentle wake up and walk them
back and reassure them.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
And then yeah, oh look, if they're asleep in your
bed and they do the transfer, that's cool, but more
I would be trying to get them before they get
in from bed.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Gotcha, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
I here and coming sit in the room. You're like,
this question, is my two year old? How come he
will sleep great for one night and the next night
he'll be awake for say three to four hours.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
Ah.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
So yeah, the split night, the party at three am,
it's never a fun one. And often it's because there's
the timing's out, the sleep pressures out, or he's not
getting enough nap time in the day and that's going
to mean he's going into bed overtired, and that can
call was split nights and wait for a decent amount
of time, or he can be you know, slept too
(35:05):
much in the day so he just doesn't have that
sleep pressure over night and he's waking for a couple
of hours. So yeah, i'd be looking at the timing
of the naps and the time he's going to bed
and potentially having.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
To adjust that. At this age, Yeah, the nap would
be about an hour and a half in the day
of the day. And then you're wanting for our wake
window from that nap to.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Bed, right, because there's that old thing right where parents,
you got got to sleep through last night. Let's just
do exactly what we did last night, and it doesn't happen.
Is it just the case that maybe the roade night,
that mid day sleep which I miss that mid day sleep.
It was just a bit shorter, so that their wake
window is actually a bit longer now before you get
(35:49):
into that bedtime routine. So now they're overtired, which causes
the split. Yeah, genius.
Speaker 6 (35:53):
And look, it's also how they falling to sleep. If
they're self settling, no problem. But if they're missing an association,
they're waking up. They're wanting that. That's like a dummy.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
I remember with Oscar. My kids thankfully just gave up
the dummy. They didn't want it. But I remember early
days like before too, if it fell out of their mouth,
that's going to get that? Where is it? Right now?
All of a sudden, they're awake and it's a whole ordeal.
We're getting a split night sleep.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Yeah, I've got to teach them to find it.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I've got another one here. My one year old always
wakes up before five am. How do I get this
kid to sleep in longer?
Speaker 6 (36:27):
The early morning wakes are such a common one, it's
often the last to resolve. It's really hard to sleep
train at five am. You kind of want to do
whatever you can to get them back to sleep. But
often I mean the basic environmental stuff you want to
look at, making sure that you've got the white noise
on it. It's blocking any environmental noise of the gabos
or birds or whatever. You know, it's a nice environment.
(36:48):
It drops to its lowest temperature at three am, so
you know if they're too cold at five, they're going
to awake early, making sure the room's nice and dark at
five am, hopefully it is. And then like nutrition, are
you know, hungry? Are they waking because they're hungry? But
often at one like they're pretty well established on solids,
and that's that's not a reason. Again the nap timings
(37:09):
and the time they go to bed, and often people think, hey,
a later bedtimes, going in a later wake, and that's
not the same the case.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
Yeah, we want to get them into bed a bit earlier.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Do you think it is beneficial for kids to share
a room?
Speaker 6 (37:21):
Yes, I love it if it works for the kids, absolutely,
you know, there's always going to be some excitement around
the few weeks of them sharing a room and they'll
be chatting and doing all their things. But again, limits
boundaries a key, and yes, if they sleep well, often
the older one can help the younger one too, And yeah,
I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I feel like it's helped with them Marley and Lawla Bond.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
For sure. I recall just one of my wife's friends saying, oh,
some of my best memories were sharing rooms with my siblings,
you know, at that younger age, because it's kind of
like having to sleep over every night. As long as
they getting sleep. Yeah, and the prison cell together, the
meal comes sliding in under the doors, right.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
We always end on one question, and that is when
Teddy and Wolfie are no longer living at home, they've
grown up, when they've flown the nest, what is the
one thing you would want me to remember about the
house they grew up in.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
They're fun.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
We had have a good time, like, you know, dancing
before dinner all like, Yeah, they're fun, they have I
love it.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And I also love that you've offered to have a
night when Poppy is old enough to help her get
into a better routine.
Speaker 6 (38:23):
Yes, we'd love to so newborn nights. We can do that.
I'd love to do it now, now do it now?
Speaker 5 (38:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Do you have to wait until she transitions to a
bottle feed no, no, I.
Speaker 6 (38:35):
Mean if Laura, because I can just bring her into
Laura when she's due for a feed and then take her.
So Laura just literally gets upfeeds and goes back sleep.
I then sort to set or make sure she's getting sleep.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
So whenever you.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Want to thank you so much, Thank you Sarah so much. Guys,
I hope you after all that sleep dog.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Oh god, I feel like like that.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
If you found this episode somewhat enjoyable, mane beneficial, little
miss nuggets of information, but then please.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Do the right thing, just the leave a review, five stars, subscribe,
we'll share with the fred. This is why we're not
getting reviews.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
We started this podcast with one desire, and that was
to entertain the tired parents of this country. And what
did we ask for in your return? Nothing much, not money,
just a review, just one, one review, a few words
of your time.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
People aren't reviewing out of spite now, they're like, he
wants it too bad, I'm not giving it to him.
That's the last time I'm going to beg Okay, I
like it when you beg.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Also, you can find us on social media at two
Doting Dads, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and of course, now full
Wednesday episodes are on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Enjoy that as we enjoyed that. Sleep Talk Guys later.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Two Doting Dance Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
peoples today
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