December 14, 2025 • 52 mins
One thing we pride ourselves on at Two Doting Dads is that we provide you with the good, the bad and the relatable parenting stories but we NEVER provide advice.
Until today... well sort of.
We've brought in parenting expert Gen Muir from Connected Parenting to dish out the advice and she has some incredible tips for the boys to try on their kids.
Plus she does the unthinkable... she makes Ash cry (although he won't admit it) and he is left speechless for the first time, maybe ever!
And the parenting hack that could actually get your kids listening to you! There are so many nuggets of gold to take home in this episode, you won't want to miss it.
If you need a shoulder to cry on:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Maddie Jay, I'm Ash and I'm Jen.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Well and this is a podcast all about parenting. It
is the good, it is the bad and the relatable.
And Jen, we don't give advice, but if ever there
was an episode where you want to take the advice
not from us, but from the expert. It is this
episode right now. People will be very confused. We're going
against the grain of what we've always said from day tight.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
But we can actually say we have an expert this time,
not not just another.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Parent yet well hopefully an expert who's lived it. Because
I kind of agree with you. I think parents are
drowning and advice and I love what you guys do.
It's a lot of empathy and a lot of bringing
the dads in to the chat.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And I miss the convert station that we had on
our WhatsApp. Ash you went to Jen's class.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Yes, so let me cast you back.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Was a good student.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
She doesn't remember me how No, it was in the
middle of face marks time, so it was a mile ago. Yeah,
yeah it was.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
It was twenty twenty one in November the twelfth and November.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
There were dark times post COVID Round two lockdown.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, And it was at the Marta, which is a
hospital here in Sydney, and you do a class there
for introducing your second or third whatever it is, to
your firstborn or the previous born child.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I am passionate about that class because I think that
we do a lot of preparing parents for that first baby,
and we wrap around them and we say, Okay, there's
a lot you've got to do, and then when people
get pregnant with their second baby, we say, well, you'll
be busy. We go, jeez, you'll be busy, but you'll
be right. You've done this before, and I think we're
(02:01):
thinking about the baby, and you usually do feel more
confident with the baby. But what you've never done before
is juggle the needs of two children at two different stages.
You're often a little bit poorer, a little bit busier.
Often the support that wrapped around you with the first
baby goes, oh, your life is looking a bit messy
and hard right now, and I've actually got other things
to do.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And the key takeaway for April and I, which we
still use, is some advice you give about hugging your
firstborn and not letting them go until they push you away.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
And I want to add to that. Some of the time, yeah,
I'm just like, hold, can you let go? I only
say that because I once saw a post on Instagram
for parents never ever let a hug go ahead of
your child, and I thought, my God, if I did that,
I would still be in because you know, my kids
(03:00):
wouldn't let go. And I think sometimes as parents we
do have to let go. But I love that advice
for people where a child is adjusting to anything, whether
that is becoming a big brother or sister, or starting
a new school or whatever's happening, holding that hug sometimes
and giving the kids the power of when that hug
ends is one of the most beautiful things.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Forgetting that rule.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
It also feels that.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
It's not a rule, though, what do we call it? Like,
It's just something you do every now and then. We
can fill our child's cup by just going in for
a hug and allowing them. It's a hack, it's a tip.
It is nice. It's a nice to add.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, it's nice to see the two of you back together.
We norways start with a question that we ask I guess.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And that question comes from me, and I want to
cut you, to cast your memory back to the most
trouble you got in as a child.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Okay, do you know I was a really good kid.
It's okay story kid, but my feet were very accident prone.
And what I will say to that is, I'm a
child of the eighties. I was completely let loose to
run around the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
I grew up in Sydney, in Linnfield, not too far
from here, where there was a huge amount of wisteria,
you know, the purple flowers that bloom at Christmas, and
you know what with sirias full of is bees. I'm very,
very allergic to bees. I have been stung in my
life by treading on them by seventeen bees. And every
time I would tread on a bee, my foot would
(04:34):
blow up like ten times at size and I would
be on crutches for about two weeks while I return.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Seventeen's got to be a record.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
It's a record.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Well it was in one one sitting you got stung
se I.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
No know, like over my life I trod on seventeen.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Remember that, I don't remember the last time I was
stung by a bee, so.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I thought for a second, you got to tack by
seventeen bees.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
It was.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What's that movie where the guy dies?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I don't bring up my girl, My girl.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
My girl. I thought it was some of us.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
I won't get through it if we bring up that.
And then on top of that, you know, we used
to play this game on the trampoline where we'd turn
the trampoline on its side. Does anyone remember this is
you're too young?
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I remember I'm older them both.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Thank you for making me seem like I'm older.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Than Okay, But back in the rough old eighties, where
no parents were watching, you'd turn your netting free trampoline
with springs on its side. One of you would hang
on the netting while all the kids from the neighborhood
pushed the trampoline down back onto his feet, back onto
his feet, and you'd bounce. And one day I was
hanging on the netting and the neighborhood pushed me a
(05:43):
little too far and the trampoline went back over me,
and the trampoline crushed every bone in my foot. And
then another time I kicked in you know those marbled
glass doors my siblings. I was the youngest child. My
nickname was blob because they just thought I was the
blob that came along and ruined their lives.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
That's beautiful, beautiful little blob.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
And one day they were they locked me out of
this room and they were singing, no blobs allowed. So angry,
I kicked my foot through this glass door and and again, yeah,
wound up in hospital with a smash.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I could have died.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I could have died, I could have broken an artery.
My parents went there. They were renovating a house around
the corner. My mom like crashed her car coming back
to get me. Anyway, So my thing I got in
the most trouble for, I think was my feet.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Do you remember the punishment for smashing the door? Though
punished punishment smashing doors left roight, I.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Do remember being chased by my mum with a wooden
spoon at one point, back in back in the dark memory.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
Of right now with the trauma.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
My mom, who lives with us, some cooking and she
drags a wooden spoon. You should whip it out of like, oh,
I was like, I can't hit you that much.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I once went on TV and I was talking about,
you know, smacking kids, and I was saying, you know, like,
we're all children of the eighties and parents used to smack,
and now most parents are sort of looking to do
their discipline in different ways. And my mum had minded
my kids for me while I was on TV doing it,
and I got home and she goes, we didn't smack
you that much.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
There's two versions of reality.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
I did a call out for listeners once of what
were hit.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
With a few of them.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I was like, we should report this.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
Oh man, it's so bad.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Jane, You've got four boys, And I just got to say, like.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Fuck, lucky woman, lucky women.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, that's amazing. I imagine there must be so many
moments where you're like, oh, this is tough.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Do you know what? No, it's fine, Okay, Well that's
what we've got time for.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
What does she look like she's been smoking?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Maybe? I mean my mother in law once minded my
kids to me, and she said afterwards, I think you
are like the frog in the slow boiling pot of water.
You don't even know you're dying. That's from me, But look,
do you know what, it's a lot of fun. I
think I deeply always wanted The night I met my
(08:27):
husband at a house party in Erskineville at twenty two
years old, and I saw his giant afro under a floodlight,
and I went, that is the man I'm going to marry.
I came home and I wrote in my diary I
met a man tonight and I want to have a
thousand mini hymns.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Wow, you do. It must be the loudest household.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
It's loud. It's actually, you know what, boys are a
lot of movement, Like we do not have a meal
where someone doesn't fall off a chair ever. And you laugh,
but you just don't get it, like they just fall
off chairs and you just think, can't anybody just sit
on their bottom?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I always say that my son's like a kelpie, yes,
and my daughter's the opposite. And it's like, like, how
are you so different?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
They're just full of beans.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Yes, they're full of beans. They're full of movement, they're
full of love. I like the love.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well, it's quite fitting that you were doing a class
with Ash about how to introduce your children, because you
have a story about you a newborn and your toddler.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I do, yes, Well, this is a story that's in
my book and it's I guess it would be the
not the worst day of my parenting. I think there's
been some hard days, but I think I was the
kind of person that went into parenting thinking, well, if
anyone is going to win the Olympics for parenting, this.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Girl fair enough.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Like confidence.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
I was like my mom was a therapist. I had
really wanted babies, dreamed of it, planned it. I was
a social worker. I had read everything that was to
read read, you know, much wanted baby. And actually, for
the first year I had this first baby, he ate,
he slept, he did all the things, and I was
kind of smug. I'd go to mother's group and I
and people would.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Be that you were a smug mom.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Oh my god, I want to go and poke my
owner eyes out there. But I was the smug mom
and everybody was like, you know, I'm tired, and I'd
be thinking, well, if you just had a routine.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Oh no, jem I was the same Malia. First, it
was just like the dream because we were great.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
We got not that hard if you just feed me.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
I was the opposite.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
We had the kid, we had the reflux kid, the
dairy intolerant kid, the one that wouldn't sleep.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
So my second kid was the reflux kid, okay, right,
And from the absolute get go, this child came out
screaming and screamed for two years and about it was
about three months in and I just remember this day.
It was like a really hot November day, you know,
one of those seasonably hot, sweaty days. The baby, the
(11:05):
baby would not go down, hadn't slept, wouldn't feed, crying,
and I had a two year old, and you know
one of those days where it's like time is going backwards,
not forwards, Like you're just like, how can it only
be ten am? I've lived forty eight hours of this day.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
It adds to it because you know that Buba is
going to be so much harder for the tail end
of the day when they miss their sleep. But also
you're like, all I want is that little moment forty
five minutes of just like one less child look after.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
And so sort of it's a blurb, but I remember
my two year old eating a million tiny teddies, and
I'm trying to just settle this baby, settle this baby.
And finally I get the baby to sleep, and I
turned to my two year old and I go, I'm
just going to go put the baby in bed. Mummy
will be just one minute, just stay here. The wiggles
are on, like good boy, and he's like okay, mummy,
(12:00):
and I go down and I lovingly put my baby
in his bacinet, like you know, the slow release so
that they don't notice the movement from your arms, and
the white noise is going and I'm like, oh my god, finally,
you know, just release this child off my chest. And
like before I can even blink, suddenly my two year
old's in the room. I look down. Before I can
(12:22):
do anything, he just grabs the side of the bacinet.
He looks at me in the eyes and goes raun.
I mean, I thought he was the spawn of satan.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
So the baby's screaming. I am like bawling. The two
year old is crying. And the reason that it was
such a hard moment was just my reaction, Like my
reaction in that moment was not calm, and it was
not connected, and it was not anything I had kind
of been really up until that point. And I think
(12:56):
the neighbors would have hurt me yelling and and I
remember just all of us sobbing for hours, like I
had to call my husband and go home, and I
just thought I never ever pictured parenting could be this hard.
And I think at the moment it wasn't just the
physical labor of it or the crying of the baby,
(13:17):
but the sense that I wasn't being the parent that
I wanted to be in the moment, and I was
so disappointed in myself. And then I was like, I
can't believe I'm not enjoying being a mom to two kids,
Like this is not fun. And then the disappointment in yourself,
and there was just so much in it, and and I.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Was guilt off the richter because of your profession at least,
like when I feel bad, I'm like, well, look, I'm
not an expert.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
I always tell myself that too.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
You're like, yeah, a little bit. And then also you
just you know, at that point in time, I think,
and a lot of people will relate to this, you're
drifting out almost to see you can see your old
life and your goals and the pair you were going
to be before you had kids, and you can see
it on the shore. But you're drifting.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
I don't remember before kids at all. I think I've
just blocked it out. But I can like you saying
that I can just feel the rage.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yes, and the mum rage yeah, and all the.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Dad right, It would be going through my head would
be why why?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Well, then I was like, I'm pretty sure my two
year old is destined for prison. That is a psycho
thing to do. And in height, I now know that
he was this beautiful little baby that up until that
point had had this monogamous relationship with me, and I
had brought in this second child, told him it was
going to be his best friend. He's going this is
(14:44):
not the best friend that you promised. It's actually a
real pain in the ass. You are tired. I am
missing everything we had and kids are going to show
that through behavior. I now get what he was communicating,
like a breakup.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Really it is, you know, like in a way, and
I guess like, yeah, right, you forget that that probably
was not the issue.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Was that was just missing you so much that.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I think kids grieve the world they knew before that
baby came along. And even though there is so much
to love in being a big brother or sister, and
they can love the baby and still be grieving the
world in which it was just you and them, do.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
You need to then allow them to grieve without making
it really obvious that.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
We gather here today.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
How do you let that grieving to happen without trying
to shine a spotlight on it?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
I think we do it in three ways. So we
increase connection and we absolutely just love on that kid
and we delight on them, and it's mostly physical, it
doesn't it's just literally kind of showing them, hey, we
have enough love for you and this baby. And we
do that with high fives and fist pumps and holding
the hug some of the time and just these little gestures.
We do it by setting and holding boundaries that make
(15:56):
them feel safe. So even though your world has just
shifted and the rug has just been pulled out from
under you, I'm still going to put you to bed right.
And we do it by holding space for their emotions.
And that might sound like, I know, it's really hard
when you want a biscuit or you want more TV,
And it's hard being a big brother or sister sometimes,
isn't it. And we allow them that space to actually
(16:20):
show those emotions because they won't ever. I mean really,
I have heard stories and it's hilarious when it happens,
but they rarely come up to you and say, hey,
I've been thinking about our relationship and things have shifted
since the baby came along. Can we talk about we're
going to counsel. What they're going to do is we
on the floor or melt down or like you know,
they're going to do those behaviors or shake the baby's bassinet, right,
(16:41):
They're going to show you through that behavior, because that's
how kids communicate.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Wow, she's good.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
And also there's something that, like you mentioned earlier, with
boys as well, and my eldest, and I don't do
it enough where I'm like, you know, it's hard being
a big brother because and then I notice how loving
he is with mrmots because of that, he wants he wants.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That space with mum. Still, yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
It's interesting. I think one of the most powerful things
I can say to any one of my four boys
is it's hard being the eldest. It's hard being the ace.
I've got this beautiful little youngest and he's he's like,
you know, sent to earth to test everything. I take
it also also divine, big hearted. But every now and
then I go in and say, it's so hard because
I was the youngest. So I get him and I'm like,
(17:27):
it is so hard being the youngest, and he'll go, yeah,
you know, God, I.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Need to use validating his feelings.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
I've never ever.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Like, I've always been like, help your sister, you know,
but I've never been like.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
You're the best big brother to her, Like I've never
ever been down that track and all used.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It's hard being If there.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Is a magic bullet in parenting, that is it?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Oh God, okay, right down.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
That is it? Like think about you know, anything that happens.
If we can start with empathy, right.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
And you usually end with empathy, its way too late.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Sorry I said.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
These kids don't love change right. Anytime we bring in
a change, I mean just getting into or out of
the bath can be a big deal for most children.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Right, Sorry, we don't bath. That is a hat.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
So I think my boy years ago, it's so hard
to get them in there, and I'm like, and then
they don't want to get out.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
But trust me, bro, you're in there, you're going to
love it. And they're in they're like it's pretty good,
pretty warm.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
And then you're like, don't get out, and they're like no.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Even if they're taking in there, they're like no, I'm
not getting out, get me out.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Oh my god, when they in the that.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
Is the world, especially when it's like a decent con
scoop it out.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Oh you can't stomp it down because.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
It's Oh man, I've got a bone to pick with you.
I mean, I let go to do this for a while.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I'm glad that her not me.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Ash relaxed for a second. We had a podcast we
did together. I jumped on your podcast and I remember.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Had a beautiful podcast, and I can't remember obating what
you said, but it was.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Along the lines of sometimes you just got to pick
your battles, you know, like if you're really struggling, as
an example, to get your child to brush their teeth,
sometimes it's okay to take the path of least resistance
and avoid the brushing of.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
The standby right with your dentist.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So so May Marley is great for me in that
I feel like I can kind of always be the case.
I can say, hey, do this, and she'll listen to me.
Whereas Lola, I don't have that same level of influence.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Laura, she's your second.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
She's my second size at the moment, she's four.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
Because we did a podcast and we talked about how
she preferred Laura.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yes, yes, yes, she prefers yeahs. You know what the
biggest game changer was when I went away for I'm
a Celebrity and she was kind of like, oh shit,
that guy he left, and so that was such a
game changer. But still even though we're a showja yeah, yeah, literally,
but she'll always listen to Laura before she listens to me.
(20:26):
And so like last night, for example, we got home
and every little step from when we get home when
we go to bed was just a battle from you know,
every mouthful. It was like I was trying to spoon
hot lava into her mouth. She didn't want it, you know.
Going in the bath again, just like everything was hard.
Brushing the teeth was hard, getting in pajamas was hard.
And I was kind of thinking to myself, you know,
(20:48):
at what point do I say it's okay, I can
take the path of least resistance and not push all
these little battles. But then I wouldn't get anything done.
I'd still be be eleven o'clock at night and she'd
still be in her clothes. She came home and they
from this.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Is the question of all parents and I have one
phrase that answers it is this working for me? Is
this working for my child? And let me explain it.
She says, I don't want to brush my teeth. You
get to ask does it work for me? For her
to not brush her teeth? Does it work for her?
And there are going to be times where where in
the kitchen and our kid wants a biscuit right at
(21:22):
dinner time, or they don't want to brush their teeth,
or they don't want to wear a hat or whatever.
I mean, the amount of battles, especially with a strong
world or a deeply feeling kid, which I suspect you
might have in that one, is going to be huge.
And the reason that question matters is that I think
that allows us as parents to step into that beautiful
(21:43):
kind of confident leadership role of Yet you might not
like this, but it doesn't work for me. For you
to not rush your teeth where they hat is.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And to not have any dinner, well, we.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Can't force kids to eat, to sleep, or to pooor wet.
These are like biological processes and always if we can
make kids feel safe, those things are going to go better.
So let me jump really quickly into that. But like
if your child doesn't want to eat her dinner and
she's come home from a day of daycare and she's
(22:13):
a deeply feeling kid. What I'm seeing there before I
see anything else, is this is a kid who through
the day, her cortisol levels and her ability of what
she can tolerate and cope with is up to here.
And now she's with you, her safe base, and all
of this pushback has always been a sign of love.
We've talked about this before, because kids will only push
(22:34):
into a safe person, a relationship that can take it.
So they push into it a bit as a way
of communicating I'm sort of struggling, and you know, we
can talk about things and we can hold the hug sometimes.
So I'd go, let's do two wheelbar races up and
down the hallway, and here's what's going to happen in
that moment. Number one, we've just put input into her
large muscle, so proprierceptive input that allows that little body
(22:58):
that's kind of full of cortisol after a day of
take care or whatever, to sit for maybe two minutes
at the table. Right Number two, she's probably laughed while
going up and down the hallway with you that lowest
cortisolt and has her hunger cues able to come on.
And number three, you've given her like a minute of
connection and so all is kind of okay in her world.
That's your best chance of that kid maybe eating. And
(23:21):
then at the same time you can also decide, well,
I can't, like you know, does it work for me
for her to eat or not eat? Look for me,
I'd go, I've got bigger fish to fry, because ultimately
I'm trying to keep this thing on track and get
her in bed, because it doesn't work for me if
she's not in bed at seven, because that's what I
would have been like, that was my end goal. So
we look at those goals and I think that is
(23:41):
it working for me? Is it working for my child?
Can help you anytime your child wants a third story,
and you can go, does that work for me? Yeah,
it works for me. I'll read your third story or
you know what, I am tired. I'm about to lose
my mind and you are tired. And so as much
as you want that third story, we're not doing it.
I love you to the moon and back. You're allowed
to be upset about it. But we're not going to
read a third story.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I feel like I'm going to throw the law under
the bus for this.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Let's goat.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
But because we always had this thought of during toner,
she has to sit down and if she then runs around,
it gets her worked up that it's harder for her
to sit down. But you think it could be beneficial.
I have those little moments of exertion.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
I think that kids might be sometimes their bodies are
telling us something, so she may need to move to regulate.
Like a lot of kids are still developing their sensory
systems as well, So sometimes the issue with food is
that they're busy. Sometimes it's that they're emotional. Sometimes it's
that they've had a full meal at daycare and it's
just not the best time for that little body. But
often also their body is doing what it needs to
(24:41):
do to regulate, which is why everybody falls off the
chair at my house everything at night, because we're all
kind of like moving, because that is how they're actually
soothing their system to try that new food or eat
that veggie.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Well, if I'm saying it's, for example, it's now it's
time to get in the bath, and she's like, nah,
she's not listening, and I mate.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
I got to hack for you.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
So if I walk into my living room and I've
got a couple of kids there and just say I say, okay, boy,
is it's teeth time? Time to turn off the TV
or stop playing with your legos, We're gonna brush our teeth.
Can you imagine what happens? Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
The pushback is.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Just absolutely nothing. Like it's like suddenly everybody has a
hearing deficit? What and if I push it'll be like.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Whoa, this is the best part of the TV.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Round two, if you can consciously do it. Number two,
I'll walk up. I'm gonna firstly, like for my boys,
I'm just gonna I'm going to stroke their backs like this.
So touch first. Before you ever say anything to your child,
especially something unfavorable, right.
Speaker 5 (25:46):
You sa buttering them up essentially, you will tune.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Kids live in the moment, they live in the present.
So if we can just touch them, they're like, oh hey,
you're there. So Number one, we've got to communicate in
a way they can hear us. And touches everything for kids.
So just a hand on the show, old hand on
the bat, a little bit of a rub right, you
start with that, and then you go, hey, guys, and
then we want to go with empathy. I can see
you're having the best time watching this show or playing
with your legos or playing with your dolls, and I
(26:12):
know it's so much fun. Right, I see you, I
hear you. Right. Then it's time to brush teeth. And
then here is my super duper duper hack.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Right, that was good.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
We've done that. They've heard you, they've felt empathized with,
and you've been really clear about what's going to happen next.
Sometimes is like, shut up, okay, we'll get to that
next okay, but just so they don't then I do this,
I go, thank you so much. I can see you
guys are moving. I really appreciate it. May move unbelievable.
(26:46):
So sometimes you want to acknowledge effort before kids are efforting,
and it's almost like you've taken away the push back
opportunity or something like just say, sometimes one of my
kids wi drop ice cream wrapper on the floor, shoves
my head.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Like.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
The whole story of the fact my husband buys ice
creams every single day that I don't even want in
the house is another story. But then the kids eat
the ice creams and then they just like it's like
this is gone from my hand. And you might say
pick up that ice cream wrapper, and sometimes there's that
look of like pushback, like no, I just want to
have a fight about this, and I go, thank you
so much, I appreciate you being part of the team,
(27:24):
and they do it like I'm telling you, it is
a hack.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
I actually just on that.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
I actually did that with Oscar where he had started
this lego right where he kind of was at a
point where he didn't want to go back to it
because he was at a hard point.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
And I was like, oh man, I really can't wait
for him. I really can't wait to see this when
it's finished.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
And I went off and I came back and it
was done, and I was I was like, I've got
one more.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Okay, you go in your kids, you got to clean
up this room. And they all like, oh, my legs
don't work right. Suddenly everybody's like just unable and with
little like I can't do this now. My kids are
like I've got a fourteen year old, a sixteen year old.
They would like roll their eyes so far back in
their head they'd never come back. But when they were little,
(28:15):
I would I would go, I'm going to close my
eyes and I bet when I open them, there's no way.
You guys can clam up all these toys. There's no way.
And they're all like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I do it.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
The reverse psychology and challenge of cleaning it up, like.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
You can bring if you can bring a bit of humor,
and I know you guys can. It is everything I
reckon in parenting. It is. It is the biggest shifter
because often what we're really looking at when kids are stark,
it's cortisol. And if we can, if we can make
them laugh, that's ninety percent of it.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
There was a moment when I was Lola has always
been a very slow eater. And we've watched is it
Sea Beasts?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Sea Beasts, Sea Beast?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, it's for anyone who doesn't know. It's a story
about they're trying to hunt a monster that lives in
the ocean.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
How many times we've mentioned sea beasts a lot?
Speaker 5 (29:01):
It's a movie is.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
After my parenting time.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
I think you could go back now.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I watch it without him, and I was pretending that
the cucumber was the ship from the seat and there
a bit like the he combs the airplane for landing,
but it couldn't. I was looking for the sea monster
because they were going to try and kill the sea monster,
and Lola was a sea monster, and then she would
then come out and then eat the ship like sea
beast wood. And then I would say, oh god, when
(29:29):
I was a ship because it because it got bit yeah,
and she thought it was really funny, and so she
want to come back from another bit it is, I
don't know.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
It's just maybe feeding it fun feeding.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I have seen a few videos and I can't recall
the exact specifics of why it's so beneficial, but it's
along the lines of dads prefer rough and tumble play
with their kids, and it's really beneficial. And I hate
to sound like I'm saying the right thing here, but
it releases oxytocin.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Yeah correct, And actually, actually it's really interesting when mums
and kids cuddle. The highest oxytocin between a mum and
a child, So that's the love hormone always. But when
dads and kids do rough and tumble play, and not
just rough and dumb, because not all dads are like
the rough, but often dads are good at being silly
(30:20):
and they're good at play, So all of those things
that dads do, so whether it's active, side by side stuff,
whether it's the rough and tumble stuff or the silliness,
I think dads are willing to be a bit silly.
That's when the oxytocin peaks between dads and kids. And
so it's interesting. I think that that's kind of this
natural way that we're designed to sort of bring out
(30:43):
the love in our kids and kids need both. Kids
benefit so much from both.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
So my only issue with the rough and tumble do you.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Get in trouble for it at bedtime?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
No?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Laura is pretty cool with that, and I'm conscious that,
like we try and do the rough and tumble as
soon as we get home, we got the backyard.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Some kids benefit from it right before bed.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, I heard that.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Oh God, I feel like I'm telling them to calm
down and that like that's the right thing to do.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
But well, there's no wrong or right. It's just something
you just do what works. And parenting is an experiment.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Because they do get silly after the shower, they do
get silly, and I think there's no more silliness because
we're trying to wind down.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I think maybe that is like what I had learned during.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
When they were much smaller, when you're trying to wind
them down when they were no babies. I just sort
of carried that thinking that was the right thing. But
you just said that some of them, How do you
know which one?
Speaker 4 (31:32):
You're guessing half the time. To be honest, you know
that the thing that I do to tell am I
have I got a kid that's disregulated and silly. So
kids will get at I mean quarters older stress hormone
will peak twenty minutes before bed and twenty minutes after waking.
So you're going to see a lot of struggles in
(31:53):
those two points in your day always, right and particularly
at bedtime. A lot of parents do get kids that
aren't so much melting down, but they're getting silly and
crazy and they're not listening, and you're trying to like
bring them down, and you're trying to be all calm
and you're trying not to rock the boat and cause
and melt down, and they're just getting like worse and
worse and worse. And often at that point in time,
(32:14):
what we're looking at kids needing is a really clear
firm boundary of like I can see you want to
keep playing. Here is what's happening. Boundaries coming in and
your child will melt down. But actually you're going to
kind of end it and help everybody sooner by holding
that limit in a way that's kind and firm. And
sometimes they're saying, what I really need is to get
wrapped up in my dinner and have you pretend to
(32:36):
eat me like a burrito. And both can be effective,
and parenting is trial and error, like there's no map.
And I always say to my parents because I do
the class for people having their first baby, and I
try to say, I know you don't know what you're doing,
but I have a sixteen year old and I'm teaching
him to drive and I don't know what I'm doing here.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Very true. It's like a constant, like you're both learning
in the.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
Time always and you'll forever be the first time parent
to that child in that moment forever.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah. So my issue with rough and tumble, Oh yeah,
Lola loves it, absolutely loves it, and she more than Marley.
She likes to get really into it and we have
these fake fights and quite often she just always takes
it that bit too far, like she'll really like kick
me in the guts or suthing in the face. Sometimes
she'll spit my face like as a as a like
(33:28):
ye put right in there. And my worry is that
she likes it so much, but it always ends in
the same way where it's her kind of taking it
too far, taking it too far. I don't know if
I'm doing the right thing, but I'm just in that moment,
I say I don't like that, and that's that's that's
not good. But then she's kind of like trying the
funk up. Well it's rough in tumble bro like it.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Is such a baby, you're grown man.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Because my fear is that if she's with a kid
in like the playground, that she's gonna because los my
little bulldozerre that she's going to grab one of the
kids and like spit in their face and.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
A teaching Actually I actually feel like I love this kid.
But what I would say is this, I'm getting the
sense this is a body that needs this to regulate,
and those same bodies that need this to regulate, they
will take it too far. And that's It's a couple
of things. One, she just can't help it. She just
gets so excited and it feels so good that she
(34:28):
just goes that step too far. My eldest we call
him old one step because he always goes one step
too far. I was like, oh, his whole life we
go old one step and you know he's sixteen. I
can't release the current stories, but yeah, he's still taking
it one step too far. But these kids, they get
(34:50):
so into it, they're beg hearted and they live life
and those experience to the fullest. And so it is
hard for her to learn those edges. But through that
rough and tumble, she is learning the And if you
consistently like reminding her at the beginning of rumbling or
at other times, remember I don't like it when you
spit in my face, and I don't like it when
you keep me in the nuts or whatever else she's doing.
(35:12):
And if you do that, what I would tell your
child in advance is if you do that, I will
stop you, and we will stop the game. And we
do that with love, because you don't want to be
a kid that is making social mistakes. Because ultimately, let's
go back to that question, is this working for me?
Is this working for my child? Her spitting in your
face doesn't sound like it works for you, right, and
(35:33):
so you're instantly going correct, I'm assuming, I'm assuming it
doesn't work for you. Wouldn't wait for me that, and
so you're like, well, it doesn't work for me, so
exactly what you do. What you do is beautiful. And
I would add, look at my face. I don't like
it when you spit in it. So we're going to
stop the game. I can see it got too much,
and you're a good kid, and I know you had
(35:55):
so much fun and you couldn't help it. I know
that wasn't your intention to. I mean, we don't say
all these but essentially, if we can say, I get
that we're having so much fun, but I don't want
you spinning in my face. And I told you before
we started if you spat or if you kicked me,
we would have to stop the game. So we're going
to stop now. We're not done forever. We'll try again tomorrow.
And that is so beautiful because you're helping her learn
(36:18):
to regulate. Well, the bigger picture is not the behavior.
I don't care whether she's spitting in the face or anything,
because she's little. In it, it's so developmentally normal, but
if we want to help her with those skills in
the playground, practicing it with you is the mine.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So do it love that you mentioned regulation a lot
and melt down.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
I mean, I've got two kids that melt down over
various things, as they do at one.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
Point, at one point, still still, And I think for
me it's also me trying to regulate my emotions and
also trying to figure out what they're melting down about.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Because a lot of the time it's something so small
and you think it's ridiculous, and that's my first thought.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
But it's deeper than that, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
It is so often you know, kids can't walk up
to us and say, you know, I'm adjusting to being
we've brother or sister, or Tommy snatched off me in
the sand pit today, or you know, I just can't
name what it is. The world just sometimes is big
and it's a lot to learn to feel your feelings.
And so what they do is they show us through behavior.
And you know, it's often about the cup or the
(37:29):
fact you cut they're toasty, even though they wanted their
toasty cut yesterday, or the fact that you peeled a
banana wrong, or they broke a banana, and if I
can share a meltdown story that I think could help,
because we're all dealing with this right and I think
one of the hardest things to do as a parent
is to be with our kids when they're not okay.
And for most of us, when we were not okay
as kids, we were told go to your room and
(37:51):
come back when you're together, and it worked in the
sense that shut us up. Didn't really teach us how
to regulate our emotions, and interestingly, we were in their
googling ways to regulate my emotions. And so we're trying
to sort of do that differently with our kids. But
it's really hard, and we do sit there struggling about, well,
what's the underlying reason. I don't think you need to know.
(38:12):
All you need to know is my kid's not okay.
That's it. So anyway, my story is that I just
had my fourth child. I was cooking dinner, I was
about two weeks postpartum, I had my baby in a
baby carrier, and my husband was not home. I had
half the neighborhood tearing around my house, and I was
questioning some of my decision making, you know, ye, and
(38:34):
my two year old Tommy walked up and he's like,
can I have a banana? I'm like yeah sure. He goes,
can you peel it? I go, yeah sure, And in
the process of peeling it, I did what you should
never do to any two year old. I broke that banana.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
How dare you shame?
Speaker 4 (38:48):
And he did not want that banana anymore because it
was broken.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
What I know, can kids just can I fucking cut
that out.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
To rewire it out a memo?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Do you kids of the world?
Speaker 1 (39:04):
So banana tastes the same whether it's broken, it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
So he's like, banana broken. And even though I do
what I do, and even though I know what kids
need at a logical level, in that moment, I was like,
I am going to do anything I can to just
shut this kid up. So I was like, I will
chop it up, put it in a bowl, and give
you a spoon, which used to work for my kids.
And he was like, yeah, banhada, And I was like, okay,
(39:28):
what about some logic? So I hold up the fruit bowl.
Have you ever done this? And I'm like, look in
the bowl, I don't have anything, and he's like, I
don't care for your logic. I want a banana. And
then I was I was desperate. I was opening the cupboard,
going anything you want, anything you want, and he's like, banda.
(39:49):
And then I was like holding up the iPad, like
what about the wig was like? And actually what I
was fighting was you know, And it links to the
start of the story about that rage, that feeling of
life wanting to scream go to your route, which I
know is not going to help any two year old,
but man, I wanted to do it so badly. And
(40:09):
this is a good story in that I caught it right.
And it was almost like this moment of like, he
doesn't need me to fix this or so of this
or stop this, he needs me to let him know
I get it. So I sat on the floor and
I only said three things, and all I said was
what happened? I said, you're banana broke. You really didn't
want it to break, and you're really really sad about this.
(40:30):
Within six seconds, his head was leaning against my shoulder.
Within seven seconds, I looked down and he's beating his
little frickin' banana. And I sat there actually blown away.
Despite the fact I have practiced at this so much,
I was blown away. By a how well it works.
B you know how hard it is to do. And see,
(40:51):
I had just had a third baby, a fourth baby,
again questioning decisions. I had just had a fourth babe,
and this kid had had me go to hospital for
five days. The baby was not feeding very well, and
all of the stuff that happens, and I was cooking dinner,
and you know, there's so much going on, and you
just think for that kid. You know, Yeah, it was
(41:12):
about the banana, but it was about man, I have
regulated through so much stuff and there is so much
changing in my world, and now my banana has broken,
and I just need you to be with me in
the banana. So the biggest thing I'd say is you
don't need to know what is happening here. I think
you need to just go You're not okay, your banana broke.
(41:33):
You're really sad about it, and I'm just gonna sit
with you without attempting to fix it.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Yes, yeah, I automatically go into that fixing mode. And
that's one of the many things I'm struggling with at
the moment. But for me, I find that I'm not
regulating myself enough.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
When they're not regulating and.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
I'm quickly learning that how are they supposed to learn
if I'm not teaching the regulation correctly or even validating.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Their feelings times?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
And I'm catching myself a lot dismissing it and just
knee jerk reacting to it instead of going hang on
a sec. Okay, this is a small, very small child
who is still trying to learn basic emotions.
Speaker 5 (42:14):
I know, and I'm finding that I've struggled a lot with.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
My life with unrelenting standards, and I'm starting to project
that onto my children. And when the meltdown happens, instead
of sitting with them, like you say, which is what
I should be doing, I'm expecting more of them.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Do you know it's so hard to do something that
was not modeled for you. If we were sent to
our room when we melted down, and most of us were,
or even if not even with the most beautiful, the
most beautiful, loving upbringing, but I was told to turn
that frown upside down or the wind would change, and
I get stuff like that. Those messages taught you unequivocally,
(42:53):
we don't do that in this relationship. And now here
you are back in the kitchen with this smaller person
that is bringing up the stuff that you were taught,
not at a cognitive level, but at a physical level.
We don't do that so much as you know cognitively,
I should hold space and regulate and model. Your body
(43:13):
is going, make it stop, right, And so can I
cut all the advice out that you've ever had about
I should and I m asked and I need to
name and all the stuff. And I want to just
tell you one thing you could do. Put your hand
on your heart and say, this shit is really hard.
I'm doing the best I can. That is self compassion.
(43:36):
And if we could give ourselves that, we're gonna parent.
So I don't care what happens next. You're going to
parents so much better. And I want to explain why,
because what's happening for you in that moment is your
whole system is going. This isn't safe. I need to
stop it. I need to fix it. And you might
think that you might be harder on yourself and say
do better tomorrow and don't yell at your kids and
all that stuff we do to ourselves as parents. But
(43:58):
if you could stop and go, I'm doing the best
that I can. That self compassion, that self kindness, It
lowers your quartersol, because what is happening in you is
literally the same as what's happening in your kid. It's
a stress response. We step in and offer ourselves the
compassion that maybe we might have liked as a two
year old or a three year old, and we say
you're doing your best. You will instantly start breathing a
(44:20):
little bit better. You will instantly be more present and
less in fight, flight or freeze, and then whatever you
do for your child is okay, you'll be a bit better.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I think I definitely needed to hear that.
Speaker 5 (44:34):
It's not very often that.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
It's not very often that I am speechless and matt,
but I don't have any I don't have any response
because it's kind of what I needed to hear.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
It's such an important message.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
I think, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
For that, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
When are you going to fucking cry? Like when you're
gonna have sorry? Almost it almost no, it's not. It's
such a fucking hard job.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
It's really such a hard job. But we are the
first generation of parents, particularly dads, particularly dads, because this
was not modeled by your dads. Particularly you know your
moms might have met some of your emotional needs. But
your dads did not have skills on the whole, and
so you're doing something that was so unmodeled. You have
(45:21):
no script for this, and you can't do it at
a cognitive level alone. But I think if you can
offer yourself some kindness and go you're trying really hard,
instantly you're that little bit better placed. And then there's
the kid in front of you, and whatever you do
will be right for them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I could ask so many questions, but I won't because
I know we're running out of time. I do have
one really quick quote. I have two really quick questions.
One is when it comes to discipline. As a quick example,
I was an idiot. I bought some slime.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
Lola planes don't ever buy slime.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
And I said to Lola, and I hate to like
pinpoint Lola in all my scenarios, but I said, you've
got to keep it on the table. It goes on
the floor in the carpet, then I'm going to take
it away from you. It ended up on the carpet.
I then warned her, happened again. I took it away
from her, and then her reaction at the moment to
a lot of scenarios where I discipline I'm the bad
cop is I hate you? And nothing I really say
(46:18):
at the moment will stop her from saying that. I
try and say, I'm not going to let you say
that word. It's sort a nice word, it's veryan, it
hurts my feelings. She'll continue saying it, and then I'm
thinking to myself, do I need to send it to
a room or give a time out? What should my
reaction be when she's saying relentlessly I hate you every
time I try and discipline them.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
First of all, I would give yourself a big congratulations,
because when our kids learn to say harsh words to us,
their regulation is coming online. It's actually a positive sign.
So initially, when kids are distressed, they show us their
emotions physically, so they hit and they spit and they
kick and they throw toys. And then they start to
get older and they learn to say harsh words and
(46:55):
they say things like I hate you, You're the worst
parent ever. I mean, kids say, ay, I've heard it all.
They will say I want you to die. I mean,
they can look at you and threaten your life, and
you think, should I let the police know? So, really,
really harsh The biggest hack I have for you in
that moment to help you is what I do, and
it is this. Imagine that rather than your child saying
(47:18):
that they hate you, what they're saying is I hate
this feeling. It is so hard to have gotten something wrong.
I'm a good kid, and I don't want to have
much of this up and I hate that the slim's
been taken away and this is hard and I'm disregulated
and I hate this feeling. And they say I hate
you because they're learning how to express themselves and it's
clunky as they learn. And actually, if we can sort
(47:38):
of view it like that, now we can respond with
you hate this feeling, or I know it's hard when
I say no or or nothing, just like you know,
the biggest thing you can say to your kid is yeah,
this is you're not okay. And I don't think you
actually need to deal with those words at all. I
have a care rule in my house with bound I
have four care rules. No hitting or hurting, no damage
(48:01):
to our environment or our property, and no name calling.
And when someone says stop or they're crying, we stop
when we check on them. And other than that, I
wouldn't be stepping in. So if my kid says I
hate you, I'm kind of going I can see you
having a hard time. If my kid calls me a bitch,
I'm going to say, oh, that's crossing a family line.
(48:21):
I'm not going to let you do that. So we're
going to go and sit in your room and we're
going to have a time.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
He said that, which one it was?
Speaker 4 (48:30):
None of the none of them have actually said that word.
I said it to my dad once. No, actually I
called my dad. Did I call my dad? I think
I said he was a dickhead or something other than that.
I was working with a mum the other day and
(48:51):
she was introducing her older child to the baby. The
baby was having its first breastfeed and she said, this
is your baby brother is feeding off mum. You know
this is how he eats. And this two year old
looked her in the eye with this wicked look and went, well,
I want to eat the baby. She's like, do I
need to talk to him about that? And I'm like, no,
(49:11):
he's just expressing.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
This is tricky, like because I'm up holding my kids
who are four and six, to the same communication standards
as an adult.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Yeah, exactly, Jim mentioned it earlier, just quickly on that
when she was saying that they start to push back
on who where they like trust her, and then you
said that she's sort of building to the point where
she's regulating, not physically, butulate it. So to me, it's
like they're hurt for words, but maybe she just trusts
you that she can say that to you right.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
One hundred you know, And this is what I'm like
holding in my heart as my sixteen year old rolls
the eyes every time I breathe, and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
It love your cringe.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Mom like that, because believe me.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
They pushed back even harder in those years. But you know,
kids will push against that beautiful safe that's the that's
the wall of love that they can push against, you know,
And that's what we want. We want our kids to
hopefully learn to go out into the world and kind
of follow the rules eventually.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Kind of what Laura to tell me that she hates me,
so I can handle the situation a lot better.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
When she gets home, you can go you that is
that I love you.
Speaker 4 (50:25):
She's saying, thank you, Dad, And you know, I look,
I don't think in the moment our kids, especially a
four year old, she's never here, she's hearing about two
and ten of your words. If that so, you're wasting
your time with Oh, that hurts my feelings. But also
I think our job is to be, you know, bigger
and stronger and wiser and kind, and our kids are
going to say and do a billion terrible things and
(50:45):
make a lot of mistakes, and our job is to go, hey,
and I love you no matter what. I can see
you having a hard time. And then as they get older,
maybe outside the moment, you go, I'm thinking about that
thing you said earlier, and that did hurt my feelings,
and maybe we could work on some other ways we
can express ourselves in the moment, but I wouldn't be
doing that afore. Yeah, she's a cool kid.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Man's Jenna. I'm very intrigued to know what your answer
is to this question. We ask all, I guess the
final question. When your boys are all grown up and
they're no longer living at home, what is the one
thing you would want to remember about the house they
grew up in.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Oh, God, the four rules, Matthew.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
That's so tough. Sorry, that they were lovable and worthy
of love no matter what. In the good in the
bad when they absolutely muck it up and they steal
and they lie and they make all the mistakes that
kids will make over the time that they were lovable
(51:44):
and loved.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
You didn't disappoint Jen.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Thank you so much, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
It is honestly such a pleasure to hear you talk
about parenting in a way that is so non judgmental
but so helpful.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, I agree with Matt. Thank you so much for
spending time.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
And we are going to get you back.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
I'll be there.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
We want to ask you about going back to school,
not to put it back on Mola again. I didn't help.
Speaker 4 (52:13):
And it's going to be real.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
I can't wait for the next episode. So thank you
so much.
Speaker 6 (52:18):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Two Doting Dad's podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
people's today.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
This episode was recorded on gadigal Land
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Maddie Jay, I'm Ash and I'm Jen.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Well and this is a podcast all about parenting. It
is the good, it is the bad and the relatable.
And Jen, we don't give advice, but if ever there
was an episode where you want to take the advice
not from us, but from the expert. It is this
episode right now. People will be very confused. We're going
against the grain of what we've always said from day tight.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
But we can actually say we have an expert this time,
not not just another.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Parent yet well hopefully an expert who's lived it. Because
I kind of agree with you. I think parents are
drowning and advice and I love what you guys do.
It's a lot of empathy and a lot of bringing
the dads in to the chat.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And I miss the convert station that we had on
our WhatsApp. Ash you went to Jen's class.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Yes, so let me cast you back.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Was a good student.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
She doesn't remember me how No, it was in the
middle of face marks time, so it was a mile ago. Yeah,
yeah it was.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
It was twenty twenty one in November the twelfth and November.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
There were dark times post COVID Round two lockdown.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, And it was at the Marta, which is a
hospital here in Sydney, and you do a class there
for introducing your second or third whatever it is, to
your firstborn or the previous born child.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I am passionate about that class because I think that
we do a lot of preparing parents for that first baby,
and we wrap around them and we say, Okay, there's
a lot you've got to do, and then when people
get pregnant with their second baby, we say, well, you'll
be busy. We go, jeez, you'll be busy, but you'll
be right. You've done this before, and I think we're
(02:01):
thinking about the baby, and you usually do feel more
confident with the baby. But what you've never done before
is juggle the needs of two children at two different stages.
You're often a little bit poorer, a little bit busier.
Often the support that wrapped around you with the first
baby goes, oh, your life is looking a bit messy
and hard right now, and I've actually got other things
to do.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And the key takeaway for April and I, which we
still use, is some advice you give about hugging your
firstborn and not letting them go until they push you away.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
And I want to add to that. Some of the time, yeah,
I'm just like, hold, can you let go? I only
say that because I once saw a post on Instagram
for parents never ever let a hug go ahead of
your child, and I thought, my God, if I did that,
I would still be in because you know, my kids
(03:00):
wouldn't let go. And I think sometimes as parents we
do have to let go. But I love that advice
for people where a child is adjusting to anything, whether
that is becoming a big brother or sister, or starting
a new school or whatever's happening, holding that hug sometimes
and giving the kids the power of when that hug
ends is one of the most beautiful things.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Forgetting that rule.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
It also feels that.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
It's not a rule, though, what do we call it? Like,
It's just something you do every now and then. We
can fill our child's cup by just going in for
a hug and allowing them. It's a hack, it's a tip.
It is nice. It's a nice to add.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, it's nice to see the two of you back together.
We norways start with a question that we ask I guess.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And that question comes from me, and I want to
cut you, to cast your memory back to the most
trouble you got in as a child.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Okay, do you know I was a really good kid.
It's okay story kid, but my feet were very accident prone.
And what I will say to that is, I'm a
child of the eighties. I was completely let loose to
run around the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
I grew up in Sydney, in Linnfield, not too far
from here, where there was a huge amount of wisteria,
you know, the purple flowers that bloom at Christmas, and
you know what with sirias full of is bees. I'm very,
very allergic to bees. I have been stung in my
life by treading on them by seventeen bees. And every
time I would tread on a bee, my foot would
(04:34):
blow up like ten times at size and I would
be on crutches for about two weeks while I return.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Seventeen's got to be a record.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
It's a record.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Well it was in one one sitting you got stung
se I.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
No know, like over my life I trod on seventeen.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Remember that, I don't remember the last time I was
stung by a bee, so.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I thought for a second, you got to tack by
seventeen bees.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
It was.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What's that movie where the guy dies?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I don't bring up my girl, My girl.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
My girl. I thought it was some of us.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
I won't get through it if we bring up that.
And then on top of that, you know, we used
to play this game on the trampoline where we'd turn
the trampoline on its side. Does anyone remember this is
you're too young?
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I remember I'm older them both.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Thank you for making me seem like I'm older.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Than Okay, But back in the rough old eighties, where
no parents were watching, you'd turn your netting free trampoline
with springs on its side. One of you would hang
on the netting while all the kids from the neighborhood
pushed the trampoline down back onto his feet, back onto
his feet, and you'd bounce. And one day I was
hanging on the netting and the neighborhood pushed me a
(05:43):
little too far and the trampoline went back over me,
and the trampoline crushed every bone in my foot. And
then another time I kicked in you know those marbled
glass doors my siblings. I was the youngest child. My
nickname was blob because they just thought I was the
blob that came along and ruined their lives.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
That's beautiful, beautiful little blob.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
And one day they were they locked me out of
this room and they were singing, no blobs allowed. So angry,
I kicked my foot through this glass door and and again, yeah,
wound up in hospital with a smash.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I could have died.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I could have died, I could have broken an artery.
My parents went there. They were renovating a house around
the corner. My mom like crashed her car coming back
to get me. Anyway, So my thing I got in
the most trouble for, I think was my feet.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Do you remember the punishment for smashing the door? Though
punished punishment smashing doors left roight, I.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Do remember being chased by my mum with a wooden
spoon at one point, back in back in the dark memory.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
Of right now with the trauma.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
My mom, who lives with us, some cooking and she
drags a wooden spoon. You should whip it out of like, oh,
I was like, I can't hit you that much.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I once went on TV and I was talking about,
you know, smacking kids, and I was saying, you know, like,
we're all children of the eighties and parents used to smack,
and now most parents are sort of looking to do
their discipline in different ways. And my mum had minded
my kids for me while I was on TV doing it,
and I got home and she goes, we didn't smack
you that much.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
There's two versions of reality.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
I did a call out for listeners once of what
were hit.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
With a few of them.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I was like, we should report this.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
Oh man, it's so bad.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Jane, You've got four boys, And I just got to say, like.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Fuck, lucky woman, lucky women.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, that's amazing. I imagine there must be so many
moments where you're like, oh, this is tough.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Do you know what? No, it's fine, Okay, Well that's
what we've got time for.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
What does she look like she's been smoking?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Maybe? I mean my mother in law once minded my
kids to me, and she said afterwards, I think you
are like the frog in the slow boiling pot of water.
You don't even know you're dying. That's from me, But look,
do you know what, it's a lot of fun. I
think I deeply always wanted The night I met my
(08:27):
husband at a house party in Erskineville at twenty two
years old, and I saw his giant afro under a floodlight,
and I went, that is the man I'm going to marry.
I came home and I wrote in my diary I
met a man tonight and I want to have a
thousand mini hymns.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Wow, you do. It must be the loudest household.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
It's loud. It's actually, you know what, boys are a
lot of movement, Like we do not have a meal
where someone doesn't fall off a chair ever. And you laugh,
but you just don't get it, like they just fall
off chairs and you just think, can't anybody just sit
on their bottom?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I always say that my son's like a kelpie, yes,
and my daughter's the opposite. And it's like, like, how
are you so different?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
They're just full of beans.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Yes, they're full of beans. They're full of movement, they're
full of love. I like the love.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well, it's quite fitting that you were doing a class
with Ash about how to introduce your children, because you
have a story about you a newborn and your toddler.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I do, yes, Well, this is a story that's in
my book and it's I guess it would be the
not the worst day of my parenting. I think there's
been some hard days, but I think I was the
kind of person that went into parenting thinking, well, if
anyone is going to win the Olympics for parenting, this.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Girl fair enough.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Like confidence.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
I was like my mom was a therapist. I had
really wanted babies, dreamed of it, planned it. I was
a social worker. I had read everything that was to
read read, you know, much wanted baby. And actually, for
the first year I had this first baby, he ate,
he slept, he did all the things, and I was
kind of smug. I'd go to mother's group and I
and people would.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Be that you were a smug mom.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Oh my god, I want to go and poke my
owner eyes out there. But I was the smug mom
and everybody was like, you know, I'm tired, and I'd
be thinking, well, if you just had a routine.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Oh no, jem I was the same Malia. First, it
was just like the dream because we were great.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
We got not that hard if you just feed me.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
I was the opposite.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
We had the kid, we had the reflux kid, the
dairy intolerant kid, the one that wouldn't sleep.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
So my second kid was the reflux kid, okay, right,
And from the absolute get go, this child came out
screaming and screamed for two years and about it was
about three months in and I just remember this day.
It was like a really hot November day, you know,
one of those seasonably hot, sweaty days. The baby, the
(11:05):
baby would not go down, hadn't slept, wouldn't feed, crying,
and I had a two year old, and you know
one of those days where it's like time is going backwards,
not forwards, Like you're just like, how can it only
be ten am? I've lived forty eight hours of this day.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
It adds to it because you know that Buba is
going to be so much harder for the tail end
of the day when they miss their sleep. But also
you're like, all I want is that little moment forty
five minutes of just like one less child look after.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
And so sort of it's a blurb, but I remember
my two year old eating a million tiny teddies, and
I'm trying to just settle this baby, settle this baby.
And finally I get the baby to sleep, and I
turned to my two year old and I go, I'm
just going to go put the baby in bed. Mummy
will be just one minute, just stay here. The wiggles
are on, like good boy, and he's like okay, mummy,
(12:00):
and I go down and I lovingly put my baby
in his bacinet, like you know, the slow release so
that they don't notice the movement from your arms, and
the white noise is going and I'm like, oh my god, finally,
you know, just release this child off my chest. And
like before I can even blink, suddenly my two year
old's in the room. I look down. Before I can
(12:22):
do anything, he just grabs the side of the bacinet.
He looks at me in the eyes and goes raun.
I mean, I thought he was the spawn of satan.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
So the baby's screaming. I am like bawling. The two
year old is crying. And the reason that it was
such a hard moment was just my reaction, Like my
reaction in that moment was not calm, and it was
not connected, and it was not anything I had kind
of been really up until that point. And I think
(12:56):
the neighbors would have hurt me yelling and and I
remember just all of us sobbing for hours, like I
had to call my husband and go home, and I
just thought I never ever pictured parenting could be this hard.
And I think at the moment it wasn't just the
physical labor of it or the crying of the baby,
(13:17):
but the sense that I wasn't being the parent that
I wanted to be in the moment, and I was
so disappointed in myself. And then I was like, I
can't believe I'm not enjoying being a mom to two kids,
Like this is not fun. And then the disappointment in yourself,
and there was just so much in it, and and I.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Was guilt off the richter because of your profession at least,
like when I feel bad, I'm like, well, look, I'm
not an expert.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
I always tell myself that too.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
You're like, yeah, a little bit. And then also you
just you know, at that point in time, I think,
and a lot of people will relate to this, you're
drifting out almost to see you can see your old
life and your goals and the pair you were going
to be before you had kids, and you can see
it on the shore. But you're drifting.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
I don't remember before kids at all. I think I've
just blocked it out. But I can like you saying
that I can just feel the rage.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yes, and the mum rage yeah, and all the.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Dad right, It would be going through my head would
be why why?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Well, then I was like, I'm pretty sure my two
year old is destined for prison. That is a psycho
thing to do. And in height, I now know that
he was this beautiful little baby that up until that
point had had this monogamous relationship with me, and I
had brought in this second child, told him it was
going to be his best friend. He's going this is
(14:44):
not the best friend that you promised. It's actually a
real pain in the ass. You are tired. I am
missing everything we had and kids are going to show
that through behavior. I now get what he was communicating,
like a breakup.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Really it is, you know, like in a way, and
I guess like, yeah, right, you forget that that probably
was not the issue.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Was that was just missing you so much that.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I think kids grieve the world they knew before that
baby came along. And even though there is so much
to love in being a big brother or sister, and
they can love the baby and still be grieving the
world in which it was just you and them, do.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
You need to then allow them to grieve without making
it really obvious that.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
We gather here today.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
How do you let that grieving to happen without trying
to shine a spotlight on it?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
I think we do it in three ways. So we
increase connection and we absolutely just love on that kid
and we delight on them, and it's mostly physical, it
doesn't it's just literally kind of showing them, hey, we
have enough love for you and this baby. And we
do that with high fives and fist pumps and holding
the hug some of the time and just these little gestures.
We do it by setting and holding boundaries that make
(15:56):
them feel safe. So even though your world has just
shifted and the rug has just been pulled out from
under you, I'm still going to put you to bed right.
And we do it by holding space for their emotions.
And that might sound like, I know, it's really hard
when you want a biscuit or you want more TV,
And it's hard being a big brother or sister sometimes,
isn't it. And we allow them that space to actually
(16:20):
show those emotions because they won't ever. I mean really,
I have heard stories and it's hilarious when it happens,
but they rarely come up to you and say, hey,
I've been thinking about our relationship and things have shifted
since the baby came along. Can we talk about we're
going to counsel. What they're going to do is we
on the floor or melt down or like you know,
they're going to do those behaviors or shake the baby's bassinet, right,
(16:41):
They're going to show you through that behavior, because that's
how kids communicate.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Wow, she's good.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
And also there's something that, like you mentioned earlier, with
boys as well, and my eldest, and I don't do
it enough where I'm like, you know, it's hard being
a big brother because and then I notice how loving
he is with mrmots because of that, he wants he wants.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That space with mum. Still, yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
It's interesting. I think one of the most powerful things
I can say to any one of my four boys
is it's hard being the eldest. It's hard being the ace.
I've got this beautiful little youngest and he's he's like,
you know, sent to earth to test everything. I take
it also also divine, big hearted. But every now and
then I go in and say, it's so hard because
I was the youngest. So I get him and I'm like,
(17:27):
it is so hard being the youngest, and he'll go, yeah,
you know, God, I.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Need to use validating his feelings.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
I've never ever.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Like, I've always been like, help your sister, you know,
but I've never been like.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
You're the best big brother to her, Like I've never
ever been down that track and all used.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It's hard being If there.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Is a magic bullet in parenting, that is it?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Oh God, okay, right down.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
That is it? Like think about you know, anything that happens.
If we can start with empathy, right.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
And you usually end with empathy, its way too late.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Sorry I said.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
These kids don't love change right. Anytime we bring in
a change, I mean just getting into or out of
the bath can be a big deal for most children.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Right, Sorry, we don't bath. That is a hat.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
So I think my boy years ago, it's so hard
to get them in there, and I'm like, and then
they don't want to get out.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
But trust me, bro, you're in there, you're going to
love it. And they're in they're like it's pretty good,
pretty warm.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
And then you're like, don't get out, and they're like no.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Even if they're taking in there, they're like no, I'm
not getting out, get me out.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Oh my god, when they in the that.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
Is the world, especially when it's like a decent con
scoop it out.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Oh you can't stomp it down because.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
It's Oh man, I've got a bone to pick with you.
I mean, I let go to do this for a while.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I'm glad that her not me.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Ash relaxed for a second. We had a podcast we
did together. I jumped on your podcast and I remember.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Had a beautiful podcast, and I can't remember obating what
you said, but it was.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Along the lines of sometimes you just got to pick
your battles, you know, like if you're really struggling, as
an example, to get your child to brush their teeth,
sometimes it's okay to take the path of least resistance
and avoid the brushing of.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
The standby right with your dentist.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So so May Marley is great for me in that
I feel like I can kind of always be the case.
I can say, hey, do this, and she'll listen to me.
Whereas Lola, I don't have that same level of influence.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Laura, she's your second.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
She's my second size at the moment, she's four.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
Because we did a podcast and we talked about how
she preferred Laura.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yes, yes, yes, she prefers yeahs. You know what the
biggest game changer was when I went away for I'm
a Celebrity and she was kind of like, oh shit,
that guy he left, and so that was such a
game changer. But still even though we're a showja yeah, yeah, literally,
but she'll always listen to Laura before she listens to me.
(20:26):
And so like last night, for example, we got home
and every little step from when we get home when
we go to bed was just a battle from you know,
every mouthful. It was like I was trying to spoon
hot lava into her mouth. She didn't want it, you know.
Going in the bath again, just like everything was hard.
Brushing the teeth was hard, getting in pajamas was hard.
And I was kind of thinking to myself, you know,
(20:48):
at what point do I say it's okay, I can
take the path of least resistance and not push all
these little battles. But then I wouldn't get anything done.
I'd still be be eleven o'clock at night and she'd
still be in her clothes. She came home and they
from this.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Is the question of all parents and I have one
phrase that answers it is this working for me? Is
this working for my child? And let me explain it.
She says, I don't want to brush my teeth. You
get to ask does it work for me? For her
to not brush her teeth? Does it work for her?
And there are going to be times where where in
the kitchen and our kid wants a biscuit right at
(21:22):
dinner time, or they don't want to brush their teeth,
or they don't want to wear a hat or whatever.
I mean, the amount of battles, especially with a strong
world or a deeply feeling kid, which I suspect you
might have in that one, is going to be huge.
And the reason that question matters is that I think
that allows us as parents to step into that beautiful
(21:43):
kind of confident leadership role of Yet you might not
like this, but it doesn't work for me. For you
to not rush your teeth where they hat is.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And to not have any dinner, well, we.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Can't force kids to eat, to sleep, or to pooor wet.
These are like biological processes and always if we can
make kids feel safe, those things are going to go better.
So let me jump really quickly into that. But like
if your child doesn't want to eat her dinner and
she's come home from a day of daycare and she's
(22:13):
a deeply feeling kid. What I'm seeing there before I
see anything else, is this is a kid who through
the day, her cortisol levels and her ability of what
she can tolerate and cope with is up to here.
And now she's with you, her safe base, and all
of this pushback has always been a sign of love.
We've talked about this before, because kids will only push
(22:34):
into a safe person, a relationship that can take it.
So they push into it a bit as a way
of communicating I'm sort of struggling, and you know, we
can talk about things and we can hold the hug sometimes.
So I'd go, let's do two wheelbar races up and
down the hallway, and here's what's going to happen in
that moment. Number one, we've just put input into her
large muscle, so proprierceptive input that allows that little body
(22:58):
that's kind of full of cortisol after a day of
take care or whatever, to sit for maybe two minutes
at the table. Right Number two, she's probably laughed while
going up and down the hallway with you that lowest
cortisolt and has her hunger cues able to come on.
And number three, you've given her like a minute of
connection and so all is kind of okay in her world.
That's your best chance of that kid maybe eating. And
(23:21):
then at the same time you can also decide, well,
I can't, like you know, does it work for me
for her to eat or not eat? Look for me,
I'd go, I've got bigger fish to fry, because ultimately
I'm trying to keep this thing on track and get
her in bed, because it doesn't work for me if
she's not in bed at seven, because that's what I
would have been like, that was my end goal. So
we look at those goals and I think that is
(23:41):
it working for me? Is it working for my child?
Can help you anytime your child wants a third story,
and you can go, does that work for me? Yeah,
it works for me. I'll read your third story or
you know what, I am tired. I'm about to lose
my mind and you are tired. And so as much
as you want that third story, we're not doing it.
I love you to the moon and back. You're allowed
to be upset about it. But we're not going to
read a third story.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I feel like I'm going to throw the law under
the bus for this.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Let's goat.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
But because we always had this thought of during toner,
she has to sit down and if she then runs around,
it gets her worked up that it's harder for her
to sit down. But you think it could be beneficial.
I have those little moments of exertion.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
I think that kids might be sometimes their bodies are
telling us something, so she may need to move to regulate.
Like a lot of kids are still developing their sensory
systems as well, So sometimes the issue with food is
that they're busy. Sometimes it's that they're emotional. Sometimes it's
that they've had a full meal at daycare and it's
just not the best time for that little body. But
often also their body is doing what it needs to
(24:41):
do to regulate, which is why everybody falls off the
chair at my house everything at night, because we're all
kind of like moving, because that is how they're actually
soothing their system to try that new food or eat
that veggie.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Well, if I'm saying it's, for example, it's now it's
time to get in the bath, and she's like, nah,
she's not listening, and I mate.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
I got to hack for you.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
So if I walk into my living room and I've
got a couple of kids there and just say I say, okay, boy,
is it's teeth time? Time to turn off the TV
or stop playing with your legos, We're gonna brush our teeth.
Can you imagine what happens? Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
The pushback is.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Just absolutely nothing. Like it's like suddenly everybody has a
hearing deficit? What and if I push it'll be like.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Whoa, this is the best part of the TV.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Round two, if you can consciously do it. Number two,
I'll walk up. I'm gonna firstly, like for my boys,
I'm just gonna I'm going to stroke their backs like this.
So touch first. Before you ever say anything to your child,
especially something unfavorable, right.
Speaker 5 (25:46):
You sa buttering them up essentially, you will tune.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Kids live in the moment, they live in the present.
So if we can just touch them, they're like, oh hey,
you're there. So Number one, we've got to communicate in
a way they can hear us. And touches everything for kids.
So just a hand on the show, old hand on
the bat, a little bit of a rub right, you
start with that, and then you go, hey, guys, and
then we want to go with empathy. I can see
you're having the best time watching this show or playing
with your legos or playing with your dolls, and I
(26:12):
know it's so much fun. Right, I see you, I
hear you. Right. Then it's time to brush teeth. And
then here is my super duper duper hack.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Right, that was good.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
We've done that. They've heard you, they've felt empathized with,
and you've been really clear about what's going to happen next.
Sometimes is like, shut up, okay, we'll get to that
next okay, but just so they don't then I do this,
I go, thank you so much. I can see you
guys are moving. I really appreciate it. May move unbelievable.
(26:46):
So sometimes you want to acknowledge effort before kids are efforting,
and it's almost like you've taken away the push back
opportunity or something like just say, sometimes one of my
kids wi drop ice cream wrapper on the floor, shoves
my head.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Like.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
The whole story of the fact my husband buys ice
creams every single day that I don't even want in
the house is another story. But then the kids eat
the ice creams and then they just like it's like
this is gone from my hand. And you might say
pick up that ice cream wrapper, and sometimes there's that
look of like pushback, like no, I just want to
have a fight about this, and I go, thank you
so much, I appreciate you being part of the team,
(27:24):
and they do it like I'm telling you, it is
a hack.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
I actually just on that.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
I actually did that with Oscar where he had started
this lego right where he kind of was at a
point where he didn't want to go back to it
because he was at a hard point.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
And I was like, oh man, I really can't wait
for him. I really can't wait to see this when
it's finished.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
And I went off and I came back and it
was done, and I was I was like, I've got
one more.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Okay, you go in your kids, you got to clean
up this room. And they all like, oh, my legs
don't work right. Suddenly everybody's like just unable and with
little like I can't do this now. My kids are
like I've got a fourteen year old, a sixteen year old.
They would like roll their eyes so far back in
their head they'd never come back. But when they were little,
(28:15):
I would I would go, I'm going to close my
eyes and I bet when I open them, there's no way.
You guys can clam up all these toys. There's no way.
And they're all like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I do it.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
The reverse psychology and challenge of cleaning it up, like.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
You can bring if you can bring a bit of humor,
and I know you guys can. It is everything I
reckon in parenting. It is. It is the biggest shifter
because often what we're really looking at when kids are stark,
it's cortisol. And if we can, if we can make
them laugh, that's ninety percent of it.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
There was a moment when I was Lola has always
been a very slow eater. And we've watched is it
Sea Beasts?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Sea Beasts, Sea Beast?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, it's for anyone who doesn't know. It's a story
about they're trying to hunt a monster that lives in
the ocean.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
How many times we've mentioned sea beasts a lot?
Speaker 5 (29:01):
It's a movie is.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
After my parenting time.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
I think you could go back now.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I watch it without him, and I was pretending that
the cucumber was the ship from the seat and there
a bit like the he combs the airplane for landing,
but it couldn't. I was looking for the sea monster
because they were going to try and kill the sea monster,
and Lola was a sea monster, and then she would
then come out and then eat the ship like sea
beast wood. And then I would say, oh god, when
(29:29):
I was a ship because it because it got bit yeah,
and she thought it was really funny, and so she
want to come back from another bit it is, I
don't know.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
It's just maybe feeding it fun feeding.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I have seen a few videos and I can't recall
the exact specifics of why it's so beneficial, but it's
along the lines of dads prefer rough and tumble play
with their kids, and it's really beneficial. And I hate
to sound like I'm saying the right thing here, but
it releases oxytocin.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Yeah correct, And actually, actually it's really interesting when mums
and kids cuddle. The highest oxytocin between a mum and
a child, So that's the love hormone always. But when
dads and kids do rough and tumble play, and not
just rough and dumb, because not all dads are like
the rough, but often dads are good at being silly
(30:20):
and they're good at play, So all of those things
that dads do, so whether it's active, side by side stuff,
whether it's the rough and tumble stuff or the silliness,
I think dads are willing to be a bit silly.
That's when the oxytocin peaks between dads and kids. And
so it's interesting. I think that that's kind of this
natural way that we're designed to sort of bring out
(30:43):
the love in our kids and kids need both. Kids
benefit so much from both.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
So my only issue with the rough and tumble do you.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Get in trouble for it at bedtime?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
No?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Laura is pretty cool with that, and I'm conscious that,
like we try and do the rough and tumble as
soon as we get home, we got the backyard.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Some kids benefit from it right before bed.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, I heard that.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Oh God, I feel like I'm telling them to calm
down and that like that's the right thing to do.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
But well, there's no wrong or right. It's just something
you just do what works. And parenting is an experiment.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Because they do get silly after the shower, they do
get silly, and I think there's no more silliness because
we're trying to wind down.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I think maybe that is like what I had learned during.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
When they were much smaller, when you're trying to wind
them down when they were no babies. I just sort
of carried that thinking that was the right thing. But
you just said that some of them, How do you
know which one?
Speaker 4 (31:32):
You're guessing half the time. To be honest, you know
that the thing that I do to tell am I
have I got a kid that's disregulated and silly. So
kids will get at I mean quarters older stress hormone
will peak twenty minutes before bed and twenty minutes after waking.
So you're going to see a lot of struggles in
(31:53):
those two points in your day always, right and particularly
at bedtime. A lot of parents do get kids that
aren't so much melting down, but they're getting silly and
crazy and they're not listening, and you're trying to like
bring them down, and you're trying to be all calm
and you're trying not to rock the boat and cause
and melt down, and they're just getting like worse and
worse and worse. And often at that point in time,
(32:14):
what we're looking at kids needing is a really clear
firm boundary of like I can see you want to
keep playing. Here is what's happening. Boundaries coming in and
your child will melt down. But actually you're going to
kind of end it and help everybody sooner by holding
that limit in a way that's kind and firm. And
sometimes they're saying, what I really need is to get
wrapped up in my dinner and have you pretend to
(32:36):
eat me like a burrito. And both can be effective,
and parenting is trial and error, like there's no map.
And I always say to my parents because I do
the class for people having their first baby, and I
try to say, I know you don't know what you're doing,
but I have a sixteen year old and I'm teaching
him to drive and I don't know what I'm doing here.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Very true. It's like a constant, like you're both learning
in the.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
Time always and you'll forever be the first time parent
to that child in that moment forever.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah. So my issue with rough and tumble, Oh yeah,
Lola loves it, absolutely loves it, and she more than Marley.
She likes to get really into it and we have
these fake fights and quite often she just always takes
it that bit too far, like she'll really like kick
me in the guts or suthing in the face. Sometimes
she'll spit my face like as a as a like
(33:28):
ye put right in there. And my worry is that
she likes it so much, but it always ends in
the same way where it's her kind of taking it
too far, taking it too far. I don't know if
I'm doing the right thing, but I'm just in that moment,
I say I don't like that, and that's that's that's
not good. But then she's kind of like trying the
funk up. Well it's rough in tumble bro like it.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Is such a baby, you're grown man.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Because my fear is that if she's with a kid
in like the playground, that she's gonna because los my
little bulldozerre that she's going to grab one of the
kids and like spit in their face and.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
A teaching Actually I actually feel like I love this kid.
But what I would say is this, I'm getting the
sense this is a body that needs this to regulate,
and those same bodies that need this to regulate, they
will take it too far. And that's It's a couple
of things. One, she just can't help it. She just
gets so excited and it feels so good that she
(34:28):
just goes that step too far. My eldest we call
him old one step because he always goes one step
too far. I was like, oh, his whole life we
go old one step and you know he's sixteen. I
can't release the current stories, but yeah, he's still taking
it one step too far. But these kids, they get
(34:50):
so into it, they're beg hearted and they live life
and those experience to the fullest. And so it is
hard for her to learn those edges. But through that
rough and tumble, she is learning the And if you
consistently like reminding her at the beginning of rumbling or
at other times, remember I don't like it when you
spit in my face, and I don't like it when
you keep me in the nuts or whatever else she's doing.
(35:12):
And if you do that, what I would tell your
child in advance is if you do that, I will
stop you, and we will stop the game. And we
do that with love, because you don't want to be
a kid that is making social mistakes. Because ultimately, let's
go back to that question, is this working for me?
Is this working for my child? Her spitting in your
face doesn't sound like it works for you, right, and
(35:33):
so you're instantly going correct, I'm assuming, I'm assuming it
doesn't work for you. Wouldn't wait for me that, and
so you're like, well, it doesn't work for me, so
exactly what you do. What you do is beautiful. And
I would add, look at my face. I don't like
it when you spit in it. So we're going to
stop the game. I can see it got too much,
and you're a good kid, and I know you had
(35:55):
so much fun and you couldn't help it. I know
that wasn't your intention to. I mean, we don't say
all these but essentially, if we can say, I get
that we're having so much fun, but I don't want
you spinning in my face. And I told you before
we started if you spat or if you kicked me,
we would have to stop the game. So we're going
to stop now. We're not done forever. We'll try again tomorrow.
And that is so beautiful because you're helping her learn
(36:18):
to regulate. Well, the bigger picture is not the behavior.
I don't care whether she's spitting in the face or anything,
because she's little. In it, it's so developmentally normal, but
if we want to help her with those skills in
the playground, practicing it with you is the mine.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So do it love that you mentioned regulation a lot
and melt down.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
I mean, I've got two kids that melt down over
various things, as they do at one.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
Point, at one point, still still, And I think for
me it's also me trying to regulate my emotions and
also trying to figure out what they're melting down about.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Because a lot of the time it's something so small
and you think it's ridiculous, and that's my first thought.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
But it's deeper than that, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
It is so often you know, kids can't walk up
to us and say, you know, I'm adjusting to being
we've brother or sister, or Tommy snatched off me in
the sand pit today, or you know, I just can't
name what it is. The world just sometimes is big
and it's a lot to learn to feel your feelings.
And so what they do is they show us through behavior.
And you know, it's often about the cup or the
(37:29):
fact you cut they're toasty, even though they wanted their
toasty cut yesterday, or the fact that you peeled a
banana wrong, or they broke a banana, and if I
can share a meltdown story that I think could help,
because we're all dealing with this right and I think
one of the hardest things to do as a parent
is to be with our kids when they're not okay.
And for most of us, when we were not okay
as kids, we were told go to your room and
(37:51):
come back when you're together, and it worked in the
sense that shut us up. Didn't really teach us how
to regulate our emotions, and interestingly, we were in their
googling ways to regulate my emotions. And so we're trying
to sort of do that differently with our kids. But
it's really hard, and we do sit there struggling about, well,
what's the underlying reason. I don't think you need to know.
(38:12):
All you need to know is my kid's not okay.
That's it. So anyway, my story is that I just
had my fourth child. I was cooking dinner, I was
about two weeks postpartum, I had my baby in a
baby carrier, and my husband was not home. I had
half the neighborhood tearing around my house, and I was
questioning some of my decision making, you know, ye, and
(38:34):
my two year old Tommy walked up and he's like,
can I have a banana? I'm like yeah sure. He goes,
can you peel it? I go, yeah sure, And in
the process of peeling it, I did what you should
never do to any two year old. I broke that banana.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
How dare you shame?
Speaker 4 (38:48):
And he did not want that banana anymore because it
was broken.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
What I know, can kids just can I fucking cut
that out.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
To rewire it out a memo?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Do you kids of the world?
Speaker 1 (39:04):
So banana tastes the same whether it's broken, it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
So he's like, banana broken. And even though I do
what I do, and even though I know what kids
need at a logical level, in that moment, I was like,
I am going to do anything I can to just
shut this kid up. So I was like, I will
chop it up, put it in a bowl, and give
you a spoon, which used to work for my kids.
And he was like, yeah, banhada, And I was like, okay,
(39:28):
what about some logic? So I hold up the fruit bowl.
Have you ever done this? And I'm like, look in
the bowl, I don't have anything, and he's like, I
don't care for your logic. I want a banana. And
then I was I was desperate. I was opening the cupboard,
going anything you want, anything you want, and he's like, banda.
(39:49):
And then I was like holding up the iPad, like
what about the wig was like? And actually what I
was fighting was you know, And it links to the
start of the story about that rage, that feeling of
life wanting to scream go to your route, which I
know is not going to help any two year old,
but man, I wanted to do it so badly. And
(40:09):
this is a good story in that I caught it right.
And it was almost like this moment of like, he
doesn't need me to fix this or so of this
or stop this, he needs me to let him know
I get it. So I sat on the floor and
I only said three things, and all I said was
what happened? I said, you're banana broke. You really didn't
want it to break, and you're really really sad about this.
(40:30):
Within six seconds, his head was leaning against my shoulder.
Within seven seconds, I looked down and he's beating his
little frickin' banana. And I sat there actually blown away.
Despite the fact I have practiced at this so much,
I was blown away. By a how well it works.
B you know how hard it is to do. And see,
(40:51):
I had just had a third baby, a fourth baby,
again questioning decisions. I had just had a fourth babe,
and this kid had had me go to hospital for
five days. The baby was not feeding very well, and
all of the stuff that happens, and I was cooking dinner,
and you know, there's so much going on, and you
just think for that kid. You know, Yeah, it was
(41:12):
about the banana, but it was about man, I have
regulated through so much stuff and there is so much
changing in my world, and now my banana has broken,
and I just need you to be with me in
the banana. So the biggest thing I'd say is you
don't need to know what is happening here. I think
you need to just go You're not okay, your banana broke.
(41:33):
You're really sad about it, and I'm just gonna sit
with you without attempting to fix it.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Yes, yeah, I automatically go into that fixing mode. And
that's one of the many things I'm struggling with at
the moment. But for me, I find that I'm not
regulating myself enough.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
When they're not regulating and.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
I'm quickly learning that how are they supposed to learn
if I'm not teaching the regulation correctly or even validating.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Their feelings times?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
And I'm catching myself a lot dismissing it and just
knee jerk reacting to it instead of going hang on
a sec. Okay, this is a small, very small child
who is still trying to learn basic emotions.
Speaker 5 (42:14):
I know, and I'm finding that I've struggled a lot with.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
My life with unrelenting standards, and I'm starting to project
that onto my children. And when the meltdown happens, instead
of sitting with them, like you say, which is what
I should be doing, I'm expecting more of them.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Do you know it's so hard to do something that
was not modeled for you. If we were sent to
our room when we melted down, and most of us were,
or even if not even with the most beautiful, the
most beautiful, loving upbringing, but I was told to turn
that frown upside down or the wind would change, and
I get stuff like that. Those messages taught you unequivocally,
(42:53):
we don't do that in this relationship. And now here
you are back in the kitchen with this smaller person
that is bringing up the stuff that you were taught,
not at a cognitive level, but at a physical level.
We don't do that so much as you know cognitively,
I should hold space and regulate and model. Your body
(43:13):
is going, make it stop, right, And so can I
cut all the advice out that you've ever had about
I should and I m asked and I need to
name and all the stuff. And I want to just
tell you one thing you could do. Put your hand
on your heart and say, this shit is really hard.
I'm doing the best I can. That is self compassion.
(43:36):
And if we could give ourselves that, we're gonna parent.
So I don't care what happens next. You're going to
parents so much better. And I want to explain why,
because what's happening for you in that moment is your
whole system is going. This isn't safe. I need to
stop it. I need to fix it. And you might
think that you might be harder on yourself and say
do better tomorrow and don't yell at your kids and
all that stuff we do to ourselves as parents. But
(43:58):
if you could stop and go, I'm doing the best
that I can. That self compassion, that self kindness, It
lowers your quartersol, because what is happening in you is
literally the same as what's happening in your kid. It's
a stress response. We step in and offer ourselves the
compassion that maybe we might have liked as a two
year old or a three year old, and we say
you're doing your best. You will instantly start breathing a
(44:20):
little bit better. You will instantly be more present and
less in fight, flight or freeze, and then whatever you
do for your child is okay, you'll be a bit better.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I think I definitely needed to hear that.
Speaker 5 (44:34):
It's not very often that.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
It's not very often that I am speechless and matt,
but I don't have any I don't have any response
because it's kind of what I needed to hear.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
It's such an important message.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
I think, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
For that, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
When are you going to fucking cry? Like when you're
gonna have sorry? Almost it almost no, it's not. It's
such a fucking hard job.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
It's really such a hard job. But we are the
first generation of parents, particularly dads, particularly dads, because this
was not modeled by your dads. Particularly you know your
moms might have met some of your emotional needs. But
your dads did not have skills on the whole, and
so you're doing something that was so unmodeled. You have
(45:21):
no script for this, and you can't do it at
a cognitive level alone. But I think if you can
offer yourself some kindness and go you're trying really hard,
instantly you're that little bit better placed. And then there's
the kid in front of you, and whatever you do
will be right for them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I could ask so many questions, but I won't because
I know we're running out of time. I do have
one really quick quote. I have two really quick questions.
One is when it comes to discipline. As a quick example,
I was an idiot. I bought some slime.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
Lola planes don't ever buy slime.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
And I said to Lola, and I hate to like
pinpoint Lola in all my scenarios, but I said, you've
got to keep it on the table. It goes on
the floor in the carpet, then I'm going to take
it away from you. It ended up on the carpet.
I then warned her, happened again. I took it away
from her, and then her reaction at the moment to
a lot of scenarios where I discipline I'm the bad
cop is I hate you? And nothing I really say
(46:18):
at the moment will stop her from saying that. I
try and say, I'm not going to let you say
that word. It's sort a nice word, it's veryan, it
hurts my feelings. She'll continue saying it, and then I'm
thinking to myself, do I need to send it to
a room or give a time out? What should my
reaction be when she's saying relentlessly I hate you every
time I try and discipline them.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
First of all, I would give yourself a big congratulations,
because when our kids learn to say harsh words to us,
their regulation is coming online. It's actually a positive sign.
So initially, when kids are distressed, they show us their
emotions physically, so they hit and they spit and they
kick and they throw toys. And then they start to
get older and they learn to say harsh words and
(46:55):
they say things like I hate you, You're the worst
parent ever. I mean, kids say, ay, I've heard it all.
They will say I want you to die. I mean,
they can look at you and threaten your life, and
you think, should I let the police know? So, really,
really harsh The biggest hack I have for you in
that moment to help you is what I do, and
it is this. Imagine that rather than your child saying
(47:18):
that they hate you, what they're saying is I hate
this feeling. It is so hard to have gotten something wrong.
I'm a good kid, and I don't want to have
much of this up and I hate that the slim's
been taken away and this is hard and I'm disregulated
and I hate this feeling. And they say I hate
you because they're learning how to express themselves and it's
clunky as they learn. And actually, if we can sort
(47:38):
of view it like that, now we can respond with
you hate this feeling, or I know it's hard when
I say no or or nothing, just like you know,
the biggest thing you can say to your kid is yeah,
this is you're not okay. And I don't think you
actually need to deal with those words at all. I
have a care rule in my house with bound I
have four care rules. No hitting or hurting, no damage
(48:01):
to our environment or our property, and no name calling.
And when someone says stop or they're crying, we stop
when we check on them. And other than that, I
wouldn't be stepping in. So if my kid says I
hate you, I'm kind of going I can see you
having a hard time. If my kid calls me a bitch,
I'm going to say, oh, that's crossing a family line.
(48:21):
I'm not going to let you do that. So we're
going to go and sit in your room and we're
going to have a time.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
He said that, which one it was?
Speaker 4 (48:30):
None of the none of them have actually said that word.
I said it to my dad once. No, actually I
called my dad. Did I call my dad? I think
I said he was a dickhead or something other than that.
I was working with a mum the other day and
(48:51):
she was introducing her older child to the baby. The
baby was having its first breastfeed and she said, this
is your baby brother is feeding off mum. You know
this is how he eats. And this two year old
looked her in the eye with this wicked look and went, well,
I want to eat the baby. She's like, do I
need to talk to him about that? And I'm like, no,
(49:11):
he's just expressing.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
This is tricky, like because I'm up holding my kids
who are four and six, to the same communication standards
as an adult.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Yeah, exactly, Jim mentioned it earlier, just quickly on that
when she was saying that they start to push back
on who where they like trust her, and then you
said that she's sort of building to the point where
she's regulating, not physically, butulate it. So to me, it's
like they're hurt for words, but maybe she just trusts
you that she can say that to you right.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
One hundred you know, And this is what I'm like
holding in my heart as my sixteen year old rolls
the eyes every time I breathe, and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
It love your cringe.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Mom like that, because believe me.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
They pushed back even harder in those years. But you know,
kids will push against that beautiful safe that's the that's
the wall of love that they can push against, you know,
And that's what we want. We want our kids to
hopefully learn to go out into the world and kind
of follow the rules eventually.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Kind of what Laura to tell me that she hates me,
so I can handle the situation a lot better.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
When she gets home, you can go you that is
that I love you.
Speaker 4 (50:25):
She's saying, thank you, Dad, And you know, I look,
I don't think in the moment our kids, especially a
four year old, she's never here, she's hearing about two
and ten of your words. If that so, you're wasting
your time with Oh, that hurts my feelings. But also
I think our job is to be, you know, bigger
and stronger and wiser and kind, and our kids are
going to say and do a billion terrible things and
(50:45):
make a lot of mistakes, and our job is to go, hey,
and I love you no matter what. I can see
you having a hard time. And then as they get older,
maybe outside the moment, you go, I'm thinking about that
thing you said earlier, and that did hurt my feelings,
and maybe we could work on some other ways we
can express ourselves in the moment, but I wouldn't be
doing that afore. Yeah, she's a cool kid.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Man's Jenna. I'm very intrigued to know what your answer
is to this question. We ask all, I guess the
final question. When your boys are all grown up and
they're no longer living at home, what is the one
thing you would want to remember about the house they
grew up in.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Oh, God, the four rules, Matthew.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
That's so tough. Sorry, that they were lovable and worthy
of love no matter what. In the good in the
bad when they absolutely muck it up and they steal
and they lie and they make all the mistakes that
kids will make over the time that they were lovable
(51:44):
and loved.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
You didn't disappoint Jen.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Thank you so much, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
It is honestly such a pleasure to hear you talk
about parenting in a way that is so non judgmental
but so helpful.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, I agree with Matt. Thank you so much for
spending time.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
And we are going to get you back.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
I'll be there.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
We want to ask you about going back to school,
not to put it back on Mola again. I didn't help.
Speaker 4 (52:13):
And it's going to be real.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
I can't wait for the next episode. So thank you
so much.
Speaker 6 (52:18):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Two Doting Dad's podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
people's today.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
This episode was recorded on gadigal Land
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