December 9, 2024 • 15 mins
Dr Kate Dempsey, CEO for ANZACATA, is very concerned that Australians with a disability who access arts therapy as a crucial therapeutic support have been left confused by an NDIS announcement last week regarding significant changes to the service.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:15):
On Vision Australia Radio. This is Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.
S2 (00:22):
I'm really pleased to welcome to the program, Doctor Kate Dempsey,
who's from Anthikad, in fact. Kate is the CEO and
some well, interesting puzzling concerning news regarding creative art therapists. Kate.
Lovely to meet you and thank you for your time. Um, look.
S3 (00:39):
It's great to be here. Thanks, Peter.
S2 (00:40):
Now, uh, a bit of a decision, which quite a
lot of people by surprise last week. Do you want
to give us a bit of background as to what happened?
And I was going to ask you why, but you
probably can't answer the why. Yes.
S3 (00:50):
Let's actually correct. So the whole thing is extremely puzzling.
So Ulysses might know that on October 3rd, the minister,
Bill shorten, put out a list of things that are
not to be used under the NDIS. And he famously said, oh,
cuddle therapy. You know, no evidence on that. So there
(01:11):
were several, um, uh, activities on that list which were
no longer allowed. Of course, we weren't on that list
because we are an evidence based therapeutic support. And then
after that, um, members of an zaccardo who are professional
registered allied health practitioners were hearing and being told that
(01:32):
they were on this outer list. That wasn't true. We
couldn't get any advice from the Ndia. Nobody would respond
to us. And then finally, after really a whole month
or six weeks of trying and we were really trying,
we were told again with nothing in writing, but we
(01:53):
were told that, um, advice was going to be coming
out internally to all Ndia staff and delegates, that indeed
music therapy and art therapy were both off. Now we
were we were not allowed to be used as therapy supports.
And that was going to happen from December 2nd. So
we got sort of six days notice of that. And
(02:16):
we of course lobbied tremendously both music therapy and art therapy.
After that, and within 24 hours, the Ndia had shifted
their position. They didn't contact us, they didn't contact any individual, um,
providers of services. They just put up a post on
their website which said, okay, um, art therapy, music therapy
(02:39):
and so on, have um, a period until February 1st
and then unless and the wording is so unclear, but
unless we can prove that we are actually therapy support related,
well then we really have to go down to the
category of sort of just fun activities. Right? Uh, so this,
(03:02):
of course, is completely surprising. We don't understand it. We
don't know where it's come from. And it seems to
be suggesting that people inside the NDA do not understand
that art therapy is a genuine psychological, you know, counselling, intervention. So, yeah,
(03:26):
we don't understand really what's going on and we're not
quite sure where it came from.
S2 (03:29):
And it's the way that your clients can kind of
communicate who may otherwise not be able to communicate in a,
shall we say, a more conventional way.
S3 (03:37):
That's absolutely correct. So our our members are in the
main are master's degree trained. So they're trained in all
those sort of typical psychological interventions and, you know, typical
counselling sort of things that your listeners might be aware of,
but they use art based activities. You don't have to
(03:58):
be like a great artist, but it's to use the
art as a way of getting in touch with things
that maybe you just can't verbalize. I mean, we work
with younger children, we work with people on the autism spectrum, neurodiverse,
some of whom are not verbal. Yeah. So a traditional
(04:20):
talk therapy like psychology or counselling or psychotherapy is just
maybe not going to work for some people. And that's
what we found, that many of the participants that we
work with on the NDIS say, oh, I've had a psychologist,
but really I just, I couldn't, I just couldn't work
with them. I just couldn't verbalize my issues. But working
(04:42):
with an art therapist has really changed my life. That's
the sort of thing they say to us. So we
deal with a range of clients. Not not all, of course,
on the NDIS, but people with acquired brain injury, with stroke,
with dementia, you know, right up to aged care. We
work with those groups as well. So yeah, it's a
(05:03):
it's a shock really, to be honest. And and people
are reeling and we just heard so many desperate stories
from clients and participants about what's going to happen now,
what's going to happen. And it's it's really distressing. It's
really distressing to us as an association and to our
(05:25):
members who feel uncertain about whether they can actually continue
to support their clients.
S2 (05:32):
Distressing for the clients, distressing for the therapists, but also
for the families of the clients, because absolutely, this can
be a really important link or an important part of
their their their week or their month or whatever amount
of therapy that they have with the therapist. Okay.
S3 (05:47):
So I've just just this morning, I received an email
from a person who says my seven year old daughter
currently accesses arts therapy. She has autism level two and ADHD,
on top of a handful of other learning difficulties and
medical conditions that just make her everyday life that bit
harder than almost any other child she knows. Accessing school
(06:11):
and friendships is so difficult for her, except for a
glimmer of joy and hope on Fridays when she's excited
to go to school because Nina, her therapist, will be
coming to visit her. That's. It's lovely, but it's so sad,
isn't it?
S2 (06:27):
Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I've spoken about this a
million times. Regular listeners probably get sick of me saying it,
but the people that are, you know, most in empathy
with is those that, like, can't advocate and they're kind
of sometimes maybe your typical client, you know, those people
who can kind of advocate for themselves and speak up
for themselves and say, no, this isn't right, and take
(06:48):
it further. ET cetera. ET cetera. Well, they've probably got
a chance to have a decision change, but those that
haven't got that either ability, or haven't got that access
or haven't got that energy. Dare I say, or families
haven't got that energy. They're stuck.
S3 (07:03):
You're right. That is exactly the clients that our members see.
And we've had so many clients. I mean, I know
on the NDIS participants, so we've had so many participants
who've actually contacted us and said, I'm really can't speak,
you know, say on a radio program or something. I'm
(07:24):
just to yeah, do that. Yeah. But here's my story.
If you can use it in some way, then I
would love for you to use it. Um, and these
are people who've said, um, I can't be in a
room with other people. I can't have a question asked
of me that I don't expect coming because I'll just
shut down. Um, so I can't, you know, there's there's
so many difficulties have been placed in front of them
(07:48):
really by previous experiences, to be frank. So they want
to speak up. They can't speak up there hoping that,
you know, we can speak up on their behalf. So
that's really what we're trying to do.
S2 (08:00):
So there was this review, if you like, and there
was that, you know, those talks about, you know, drugs
and fast cars and women and all that sort of stuff. Yes.
It's totally over overblown. Were you part of that consultation
or were you consulted during that time?
S3 (08:15):
Um, well, well, they well consulted is a big word.
So I mean, they did put out, um, draft lists
and people could say, you know, something about that, but
we weren't on that. So for us, it was like, okay,
that's what they're doing. Fine. But it doesn't relate to
us because we're an evidence based modality. So, so for
(08:36):
us to have.
S2 (08:36):
Expected it, you know, expected it.
S3 (08:38):
So for us to suddenly apparently be on this list
when we weren't and the list was published and we
weren't there. So we're at a loss to know how
we moved from being on the scheme from the beginning.
So more than a decade and I'd understood, I thought,
to be, um, you know, equal with our colleagues in
(08:59):
Allied health. We are an allied health profession. And then
suddenly we're sort of on this list with. No, I mean,
we're being told I mean, Bill Shorten's made comments in
the media about how we're not evidence based, but, I mean,
we are on what basis has that come up? And,
I mean, I'd like to sort of say, where's the
(09:21):
evidence that Bill shorten is using to suggest we don't
have any evidence because that hasn't been given to us.
S2 (09:27):
Great point, Kate. Of course we are saying goodbye. Parliament
said goodbye to Bill shorten last week. There's a new
minister pending. Yeah, I mean, that is that maybe a
ray of hope?
S3 (09:40):
Well, I'm not really sure. We're still trying to get
Bill shorten to actually speak to us directly and get
him to understand that we are, in fact, evidence based
and we are well well-trained, we'd already provide significant, you know,
evidence based reports for every participant that we work with.
You're trying to get him to, you know, speak directly
(10:02):
to us. If that can't happen, then we will, of course,
work with the new minister and do the exact same thing.
But we've got a campaign running now where we're talking
to basically every politician we possibly can in order to
influence this Minister Shorten to speak with us and to
understand better who we are. Because I I'm uncertain that
(10:25):
he understands. I mean, if you've looked at some of
the things or heard some of the things he's said
on radio, it's been like, oh, well, you know, music
therapy and art therapy, they're nice, but really it's just
a bit of fun. I mean, goodness, that's the sort
of implication that he's made. And it is just so incorrect.
We need to have that better. Understood.
S2 (10:47):
Well, there's someone that just doesn't get it, which is very,
very sad because often he appears to do get it.
What about as far as, um, the opposition go? I mean,
we don't want to make it political, but we might
as well make it political.
S3 (10:58):
Uh, we're going for all sides of it.
S2 (11:01):
Not giving you any empathy. I mean, I dare say guarantees.
S3 (11:05):
No, we haven't had much traction with the opposition, although
we've been trying we have had that sort of support
from the Greens. Um, so that Gordon Steele-john.
S2 (11:15):
Is a real, uh.
S3 (11:16):
He's a great advocate. Yeah, he's a great advocate. So
he's he's posted and there's been a Greens statement, but
we haven't had anything. Um, well, look, as far as
I know, but, um, we haven't had anything from any
of the teals and, um, same with the opposition, although
we are contacting everybody in the political arena.
S2 (11:35):
Because it's one of those things where, you know, I mean,
there's jobs at stake. I mean, that's a consideration. We
often hear about how important jobs are. You know, as
you say, there is evidence based, even though some people
might struggle to find it. So you kind of thinking, well,
we're doing everything we can. How come? Why us? Why
are we cutting this hand?
S3 (11:54):
Exactly. And that's the that's the question we've been asking.
Because other allied health professions inside the NDIS have not
been asked to, um, defend or, you know, provide evidence
that they're evidence based. So we were unclear as to
why we have been, but also the in terms of evidence,
let me just say that since 2022, we've had a
(12:17):
really clear document that we've sent out to everybody we
can possibly think of. It's free on our website, and
it's a it's a summary of all of the, um,
I'll just use some technical terms, uh, level one and
level two research, um, random controlled trials, meta analysis and
systemic reviews of the efficacy of creative arts therapies. So
(12:42):
that evidence is there. It's available. It's known to the Ndia.
I don't understand. Well, perhaps, you know not everyone in
their see saw it. I don't know, but that's their
point I was going to make.
S2 (12:53):
You touched on earlier was the fact that this has
been quote unquote accepted for about ten years.
S3 (12:58):
Oh, yes. My other point was the Ndia is creating
a new sort of evidence advisory committee, and that won't
come on board until, I think, June or July of
next year. So the other thing that is sort of
puzzling to us is if there is any concern about
(13:19):
our level of evidence, well, why wouldn't we be referred
to that body in in June or July or, you know,
when it gets up and running, how is this decision
being taken six months before that body is even in place?
And we don't we don't know and we don't understand.
S2 (13:35):
Okay. People can find out more. I've had a quick
look at your website. It seems quite accessible and quite informative.
Just give that to us. And what we'll do is
also put that up with our show notes. If people
want to check out a bit more about some of
the things that we've touched on today. They can do that.
So what's your website.
S3 (13:51):
So it's w w w Dot and Sakata and that's
a n z a c a t a.org. There's no
a u or anything. So it's just w w w
dot dot org. And on the home page Peter is
a shop. And inside the shop you can find our
(14:12):
um research report, what the literature Tells us. And it's
free for download.
S2 (14:16):
Good to talk to you, Kate. We'll keep in touch.
S3 (14:18):
Thanks so much for the opportunity, Peter. I really appreciate it.
S2 (14:21):
So Doctor Kate Dempsey, the CEO for Anti-charter those or
that information up with our show notes.
S4 (14:30):
Thank you for listening to Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.
You can find this interview on the Focal Point podcast.
This show was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision
Australia Radio.
On Vision Australia Radio. This is Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.
S2 (00:22):
I'm really pleased to welcome to the program, Doctor Kate Dempsey,
who's from Anthikad, in fact. Kate is the CEO and
some well, interesting puzzling concerning news regarding creative art therapists. Kate.
Lovely to meet you and thank you for your time. Um, look.
S3 (00:39):
It's great to be here. Thanks, Peter.
S2 (00:40):
Now, uh, a bit of a decision, which quite a
lot of people by surprise last week. Do you want
to give us a bit of background as to what happened?
And I was going to ask you why, but you
probably can't answer the why. Yes.
S3 (00:50):
Let's actually correct. So the whole thing is extremely puzzling.
So Ulysses might know that on October 3rd, the minister,
Bill shorten, put out a list of things that are
not to be used under the NDIS. And he famously said, oh,
cuddle therapy. You know, no evidence on that. So there
(01:11):
were several, um, uh, activities on that list which were
no longer allowed. Of course, we weren't on that list
because we are an evidence based therapeutic support. And then
after that, um, members of an zaccardo who are professional
registered allied health practitioners were hearing and being told that
(01:32):
they were on this outer list. That wasn't true. We
couldn't get any advice from the Ndia. Nobody would respond
to us. And then finally, after really a whole month
or six weeks of trying and we were really trying,
we were told again with nothing in writing, but we
(01:53):
were told that, um, advice was going to be coming
out internally to all Ndia staff and delegates, that indeed
music therapy and art therapy were both off. Now we
were we were not allowed to be used as therapy supports.
And that was going to happen from December 2nd. So
we got sort of six days notice of that. And
(02:16):
we of course lobbied tremendously both music therapy and art therapy.
After that, and within 24 hours, the Ndia had shifted
their position. They didn't contact us, they didn't contact any individual, um,
providers of services. They just put up a post on
their website which said, okay, um, art therapy, music therapy
(02:39):
and so on, have um, a period until February 1st
and then unless and the wording is so unclear, but
unless we can prove that we are actually therapy support related,
well then we really have to go down to the
category of sort of just fun activities. Right? Uh, so this,
(03:02):
of course, is completely surprising. We don't understand it. We
don't know where it's come from. And it seems to
be suggesting that people inside the NDA do not understand
that art therapy is a genuine psychological, you know, counselling, intervention. So, yeah,
(03:26):
we don't understand really what's going on and we're not
quite sure where it came from.
S2 (03:29):
And it's the way that your clients can kind of
communicate who may otherwise not be able to communicate in a,
shall we say, a more conventional way.
S3 (03:37):
That's absolutely correct. So our our members are in the
main are master's degree trained. So they're trained in all
those sort of typical psychological interventions and, you know, typical
counselling sort of things that your listeners might be aware of,
but they use art based activities. You don't have to
(03:58):
be like a great artist, but it's to use the
art as a way of getting in touch with things
that maybe you just can't verbalize. I mean, we work
with younger children, we work with people on the autism spectrum, neurodiverse,
some of whom are not verbal. Yeah. So a traditional
(04:20):
talk therapy like psychology or counselling or psychotherapy is just
maybe not going to work for some people. And that's
what we found, that many of the participants that we
work with on the NDIS say, oh, I've had a psychologist,
but really I just, I couldn't, I just couldn't work
with them. I just couldn't verbalize my issues. But working
(04:42):
with an art therapist has really changed my life. That's
the sort of thing they say to us. So we
deal with a range of clients. Not not all, of course,
on the NDIS, but people with acquired brain injury, with stroke,
with dementia, you know, right up to aged care. We
work with those groups as well. So yeah, it's a
(05:03):
it's a shock really, to be honest. And and people
are reeling and we just heard so many desperate stories
from clients and participants about what's going to happen now,
what's going to happen. And it's it's really distressing. It's
really distressing to us as an association and to our
(05:25):
members who feel uncertain about whether they can actually continue
to support their clients.
S2 (05:32):
Distressing for the clients, distressing for the therapists, but also
for the families of the clients, because absolutely, this can
be a really important link or an important part of
their their their week or their month or whatever amount
of therapy that they have with the therapist. Okay.
S3 (05:47):
So I've just just this morning, I received an email
from a person who says my seven year old daughter
currently accesses arts therapy. She has autism level two and ADHD,
on top of a handful of other learning difficulties and
medical conditions that just make her everyday life that bit
harder than almost any other child she knows. Accessing school
(06:11):
and friendships is so difficult for her, except for a
glimmer of joy and hope on Fridays when she's excited
to go to school because Nina, her therapist, will be
coming to visit her. That's. It's lovely, but it's so sad,
isn't it?
S2 (06:27):
Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I've spoken about this a
million times. Regular listeners probably get sick of me saying it,
but the people that are, you know, most in empathy
with is those that, like, can't advocate and they're kind
of sometimes maybe your typical client, you know, those people
who can kind of advocate for themselves and speak up
for themselves and say, no, this isn't right, and take
(06:48):
it further. ET cetera. ET cetera. Well, they've probably got
a chance to have a decision change, but those that
haven't got that either ability, or haven't got that access
or haven't got that energy. Dare I say, or families
haven't got that energy. They're stuck.
S3 (07:03):
You're right. That is exactly the clients that our members see.
And we've had so many clients. I mean, I know
on the NDIS participants, so we've had so many participants
who've actually contacted us and said, I'm really can't speak,
you know, say on a radio program or something. I'm
(07:24):
just to yeah, do that. Yeah. But here's my story.
If you can use it in some way, then I
would love for you to use it. Um, and these
are people who've said, um, I can't be in a
room with other people. I can't have a question asked
of me that I don't expect coming because I'll just
shut down. Um, so I can't, you know, there's there's
so many difficulties have been placed in front of them
(07:48):
really by previous experiences, to be frank. So they want
to speak up. They can't speak up there hoping that,
you know, we can speak up on their behalf. So
that's really what we're trying to do.
S2 (08:00):
So there was this review, if you like, and there
was that, you know, those talks about, you know, drugs
and fast cars and women and all that sort of stuff. Yes.
It's totally over overblown. Were you part of that consultation
or were you consulted during that time?
S3 (08:15):
Um, well, well, they well consulted is a big word.
So I mean, they did put out, um, draft lists
and people could say, you know, something about that, but
we weren't on that. So for us, it was like, okay,
that's what they're doing. Fine. But it doesn't relate to
us because we're an evidence based modality. So, so for
(08:36):
us to have.
S2 (08:36):
Expected it, you know, expected it.
S3 (08:38):
So for us to suddenly apparently be on this list
when we weren't and the list was published and we
weren't there. So we're at a loss to know how
we moved from being on the scheme from the beginning.
So more than a decade and I'd understood, I thought,
to be, um, you know, equal with our colleagues in
(08:59):
Allied health. We are an allied health profession. And then
suddenly we're sort of on this list with. No, I mean,
we're being told I mean, Bill Shorten's made comments in
the media about how we're not evidence based, but, I mean,
we are on what basis has that come up? And,
I mean, I'd like to sort of say, where's the
(09:21):
evidence that Bill shorten is using to suggest we don't
have any evidence because that hasn't been given to us.
S2 (09:27):
Great point, Kate. Of course we are saying goodbye. Parliament
said goodbye to Bill shorten last week. There's a new
minister pending. Yeah, I mean, that is that maybe a
ray of hope?
S3 (09:40):
Well, I'm not really sure. We're still trying to get
Bill shorten to actually speak to us directly and get
him to understand that we are, in fact, evidence based
and we are well well-trained, we'd already provide significant, you know,
evidence based reports for every participant that we work with.
You're trying to get him to, you know, speak directly
(10:02):
to us. If that can't happen, then we will, of course,
work with the new minister and do the exact same thing.
But we've got a campaign running now where we're talking
to basically every politician we possibly can in order to
influence this Minister Shorten to speak with us and to
understand better who we are. Because I I'm uncertain that
(10:25):
he understands. I mean, if you've looked at some of
the things or heard some of the things he's said
on radio, it's been like, oh, well, you know, music
therapy and art therapy, they're nice, but really it's just
a bit of fun. I mean, goodness, that's the sort
of implication that he's made. And it is just so incorrect.
We need to have that better. Understood.
S2 (10:47):
Well, there's someone that just doesn't get it, which is very,
very sad because often he appears to do get it.
What about as far as, um, the opposition go? I mean,
we don't want to make it political, but we might
as well make it political.
S3 (10:58):
Uh, we're going for all sides of it.
S2 (11:01):
Not giving you any empathy. I mean, I dare say guarantees.
S3 (11:05):
No, we haven't had much traction with the opposition, although
we've been trying we have had that sort of support
from the Greens. Um, so that Gordon Steele-john.
S2 (11:15):
Is a real, uh.
S3 (11:16):
He's a great advocate. Yeah, he's a great advocate. So
he's he's posted and there's been a Greens statement, but
we haven't had anything. Um, well, look, as far as
I know, but, um, we haven't had anything from any
of the teals and, um, same with the opposition, although
we are contacting everybody in the political arena.
S2 (11:35):
Because it's one of those things where, you know, I mean,
there's jobs at stake. I mean, that's a consideration. We
often hear about how important jobs are. You know, as
you say, there is evidence based, even though some people
might struggle to find it. So you kind of thinking, well,
we're doing everything we can. How come? Why us? Why
are we cutting this hand?
S3 (11:54):
Exactly. And that's the that's the question we've been asking.
Because other allied health professions inside the NDIS have not
been asked to, um, defend or, you know, provide evidence
that they're evidence based. So we were unclear as to
why we have been, but also the in terms of evidence,
let me just say that since 2022, we've had a
(12:17):
really clear document that we've sent out to everybody we
can possibly think of. It's free on our website, and
it's a it's a summary of all of the, um,
I'll just use some technical terms, uh, level one and
level two research, um, random controlled trials, meta analysis and
systemic reviews of the efficacy of creative arts therapies. So
(12:42):
that evidence is there. It's available. It's known to the Ndia.
I don't understand. Well, perhaps, you know not everyone in
their see saw it. I don't know, but that's their
point I was going to make.
S2 (12:53):
You touched on earlier was the fact that this has
been quote unquote accepted for about ten years.
S3 (12:58):
Oh, yes. My other point was the Ndia is creating
a new sort of evidence advisory committee, and that won't
come on board until, I think, June or July of
next year. So the other thing that is sort of
puzzling to us is if there is any concern about
(13:19):
our level of evidence, well, why wouldn't we be referred
to that body in in June or July or, you know,
when it gets up and running, how is this decision
being taken six months before that body is even in place?
And we don't we don't know and we don't understand.
S2 (13:35):
Okay. People can find out more. I've had a quick
look at your website. It seems quite accessible and quite informative.
Just give that to us. And what we'll do is
also put that up with our show notes. If people
want to check out a bit more about some of
the things that we've touched on today. They can do that.
So what's your website.
S3 (13:51):
So it's w w w Dot and Sakata and that's
a n z a c a t a.org. There's no
a u or anything. So it's just w w w
dot dot org. And on the home page Peter is
a shop. And inside the shop you can find our
(14:12):
um research report, what the literature Tells us. And it's
free for download.
S2 (14:16):
Good to talk to you, Kate. We'll keep in touch.
S3 (14:18):
Thanks so much for the opportunity, Peter. I really appreciate it.
S2 (14:21):
So Doctor Kate Dempsey, the CEO for Anti-charter those or
that information up with our show notes.
S4 (14:30):
Thank you for listening to Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.
You can find this interview on the Focal Point podcast.
This show was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision
Australia Radio.
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