March 26, 2024 • 27 mins
Delve into the quantifiable benefits of diverse thinking with Liz Abrahams, APAC Regional Champion Diversity and Inclusion at Infosys. Learn how organisations can measure the positive impact of cognitive diversity on key performance indicators, from revenue growth to employee engagement and more.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Vocus Inspire, the podcast full of brilliant ideas
for business.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Luke Coleman, head of government and corporate affairs
at Vocus, Australia's leading specialist fibre and network solutions provider.
Before we get things underway, we want to acknowledge and
pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the land
from wherever you're listening. In this podcast, we dive headfirst
into what's on the minds of Australian business and government
(00:30):
leaders to help inspire you and your organisation to go forward,
go further, and go faster. So let's go.
Hello and welcome to the Vocus Inspire podcast. I'm Luke Coleman,
and today I'm joined by Liz Abrahams, associate vice president
of diversity and inclusion, head of Asia Pacific for Infosys.
(00:55):
Liz has a bachelor.
In behavioural science and is a postgraduate business qualifications from Stanford.
With over 20 years in the tech sector, she's held
leadership roles at Infosys for 11 years, pioneering the APAC
Diversity Equity and Inclusion Council in 2016.
Her inclusive leadership led Infosy to consecutive top employer awards
(01:17):
and regional advancements in gender equality. Outside of work, Liz
is a devoted wife and mother, and despite a stage
4 breast cancer diagnosis in 2020, she advocates passionately for
health and wellness. Liz, thank you so much for joining
us today. Thank you. Why don't you start off by
briefly introducing yourself and tell us a bit about your
(01:37):
role at Infosys.
So, right now, I'm looking after diversity and inclusion across the, um, Australia,
New Zealand, Asian region, or the APAC region for emphasis.
I do that on a part-time basis because of my
cancer diagnosis. I have, uh, a lot of, um, chronic
pain from the, from the illness. So emphasis, uh, in
(02:00):
In terms of, um, their support for me has been
awesome in giving me the ability to work part time. Uh,
and I elected to come back and do this role,
which I was doing on top of my full-time business
executive role. This is the role I wanted to do, uh,
in the time that I've got left, uh, to, uh,
make an impact. This is the thing I wanted to
(02:20):
do most.
That is a remarkable story. Why don't we dive straight
into it? Tell me, what are the key competitive advantages
that an organisation can gain from having a diverse workforce?
At a, at a minimum, it's, uh, the ability to
have people involved in, uh, problem solving and coming up
(02:41):
with the ideas to solve critical client problems, which is
at essence what emphasis does. And
Uh, when you've got a whole lot of diverse people from, uh, different, uh, gender, ethnicity, uh, ages, um,
when you have people who represent, uh, the, the solution
(03:01):
and the community that the solution is there to, to,
to serve, you actually come up with the best ideas.
So you've got people challenging each other from their perspectives,
and you actually find things you wouldn't have found otherwise.
And you end up coming up with, uh, better solutions
for the client. Uh, and I believe when we do that,
(03:21):
we win more business as an organisation, and we build deeper,
stronger relationships with our clients. They see themselves in us, and, uh,
we see our ability to have, uh, much better relationships
with the client as a result of all these different
people from the different backgrounds.
Is there a way that organisations can measure the impact
(03:45):
of diversity and inclusion on key business metrics like growth,
market share, profitability, employee satisfaction? Uh, yes. So if you begin, uh, with, uh,
first of all, employee satisfaction.
Turnover is the most obvious measurement of, is a, is
a company doing, uh, well in terms of longevity of employees, uh,
(04:09):
the skill set of the employees, and what is the
staff turnover? And you find people leave companies where they
don't feel they belong anymore, or they're not doing their
best work, or they're not being paid what they think
they're worth, because, you know, money at the end of
the day, everyone wants to be rewarded properly. So, you know, turnover,
I think.
Is, is a really good, uh, metric. Uh, the, uh,
(04:31):
the longevity of employees, how long have your employees been
not only in the role, but, uh, with the, with
the company. Uh, you also have growth, and we measure, um,
we have very, very, uh, broad, uh, financial measurements, uh,
that affect all different aspects of all different employees in
all different roles. Uh, and we've introduced, uh, uh, gender targets, uh,
(04:56):
for the most senior.
Executives, uh, within the business on a global, uh, basis
to actually measure, uh, the number of men that we
have and women that we have. And we do that
specifically because our board have a set of, um, uh,
measurements that they are, um, are striving to, and we
(05:16):
have diversity on the board, and we want those same, um,
those same measurements to flow down to leadership across the,
the globe. Now, with 80% of our employees.
Working within the delivery parts of the business, um, measuring
the not only the number of women that we have, which,
you know, we've been doing that for a long time,
but the, um, number of women that are in a
(05:39):
leadership role and the impact that that has on the
profitability of the, uh, the various businesses. So we measure
it in different, in different ways, and we also measure
customer satisfaction. We also, um, um, and customers give us
feedback on the
Teams that they work with, and that includes the, you know,
(06:00):
the sorts of people that they work with. And customers
often mention diversity in terms of who they're dealing with. Um,
and we also measure it, uh, on business growth, and, uh,
the sales folks, which are, uh, the people that are
in those roles, have the highest paying jobs. And even
though they're not, um, you know, they're not the largest
(06:22):
portfolio of employees, they are the front line in terms.
Of who they're dealing with. So, yeah, they're very broad measurements,
but we, we absolutely measure it. And can you share
some examples of organisations where having a diverse workforce has
helped deliver improved financial results? Um, so if you look, uh,
if I start with tech, um, which is, you know,
(06:44):
the space that I'm in, there's a lot of, of
data that has shown that in our industry, even though
when you look at the number of men and women
and
Been pretty consistent in terms of the overall number of employees.
There are some companies that have actually done much better than, uh, than,
(07:05):
than others, whether that be on their financial performance or
on their win-loss, uh, ratio. And when you look at
who's in the leadership, you can absolutely see where there's that,
that mixture. And they seem to have a sustained, uh, uh, success, uh,
rate based on, um, you can see the, the
(07:25):
Leadership as it's changed. And, uh, you know, you can,
you can see whether that business is becoming more profitable,
and those businesses range from consulting organisations within the tech industry, or, um, within, uh,
the delivery parts of the, uh, the business. Um, I
don't think it's appropriate that I name specific companies within
(07:47):
our industry, but I can absolutely say, whether it's in
the US, whether it's in Europe, or whether it's in
our
area where women are in their leadership, you can see
the correlation on their performance. And in fact, um, McKinsey's, uh,
and a number of those, uh, large consulting organisations did
(08:08):
a series of global reports, and they were able to attest, uh,
whether it's in the fast-moving consumable industry or financial services.
You can see a correlation of a company's success, um,
and you can correlate.
That not only, uh, on the number of women that
are in their leadership role, but you can actually see
(08:30):
based on the number of women that are up and
down within the, the, the business. So the data's there.
And I feel like the discussion has moved on as
to why this is a good idea. And it's actually
moved on to what do we need to do to
achieve the ambitions that companies like ours have, and, um,
what changes need to be made in the culture of
(08:52):
organisations to
sustain that change and keep making progressions forward versus talking
about why do we need to have women in leadership?
Why do we need to have people with disability represented
in leadership roles? Why do we need to make it
a safe place for people who have different sexual orientations
to feel comfortable to work. So, I think, I think
(09:16):
the argument's moved on. We should do it, and it
makes business sense, but how do we implement it?
Now you've already spoken about how a more diverse workforce
can help with financial results. Tell me about the broader
impacts of a strong diversity and inclusion policy, for example,
in areas like organisational culture or innovation or problem solving.
(09:41):
Um, so this is the area that I feel incredibly
passionate about. I've worked in customer facing roles and leading, uh,
delivery teams, uh, in my career within Emphasis. And prior
to working with Ephasis, I worked for a, a very
large software company, Oracle, and I also worked for IBM
and also for Logicus CMG. I've been working for 3
(10:02):
30 something years. So in my time with all the
different companies, I've seen that having people from different ages
and backgrounds and abilities really helps, uh, people come at
problems from a different perspective. And when you're presenting solutions
to the customer, when you're delivering those solutions,
(10:25):
To the different stakeholders, what happens is people can click
with different people that are part of those teams. And
some of the solutions that you come up with, or
some of the problems that you wouldn't have been aware
of that would blindsight you, um, when you start, um, I,
what I've seen in my career in IBM, in Oracle, um,
(10:49):
you know, where they, you know, the diversity angle.
was sort of new when I was there, you know,
when I worked there, um, 19, I think it was
1997 until 2004, uh, and then IBM, is where, where
the best work experiences I've had, and in the teams
that I've worked in in Ephasis, uh, Singapore, Australia, uh, India,
(11:14):
those best experiences have got a mixture of people from, uh,
Different genders and cultures and ages, uh, and, um, people
with disabilities and different, uh, perspectives. And when you are
presenting to the client and delivering to the client, they
respond because they see that. So, um, you know, I've,
(11:38):
I've found it, it affects culture, it affects how you feel.
It affects, um, uh, the anticipation of
Uh, looking at really good, uh, delivery outcomes. And then
you can measure that in terms of have I hit
my milestones? Is the project profitable? Um, what have been
(11:58):
the issues with business change and adoption? And, you know,
there's an area that if you don't have diversity of
team members, then the cultural speak of, um, oh, I
didn't even think of that, or groupthink.
It is just terrible, and the impact on the outcome.
And I've seen it when that's happened. It's so bad.
(12:21):
So when you have people who are comfortable to speak up,
people who have got, uh, uh, you know, that won't work. As,
as a, as a woman, I, I actually, I, it
won't work. This is why. And, uh, you know, from
a disability perspective, actually, I can't see the screen. The screen,
the images are about.
Announcing that won't work. Oh, we need to test things
(12:43):
differently because it won't work in that environment. In so
many ways, it's so powerful. It sounds like it's more
than just having the right people in the room, it's
also having the right culture that enables those people to
speak up. So tell us, what are some of the
practical steps that organisations can take to foster an inclusive environment,
(13:05):
one that encourages
Diverse perspectives. Yeah, this is, this is so important. Psychological
safety in a team, in a unit, in a company
is like the number one thing. As soon as you
feel afraid to speak up because you're worried about, um, uh,
consequences or, um, uh, you know, retribution. And I've worked
(13:30):
in those businesses, let me tell you, when the company's
performance is going down,
And you call out things that are not working, whether
it's from a delivery or a business perspective, and you
get spoken to as if you are, um, a pariah,
because you're saying something that is actually gonna protect the
(13:51):
client and the business, it's quite terrifying. So, making people
as a leader, feel so
Psychologically safe, that it's OK to speak up. If you
do it in a respectful way, if you do it
in a way which is not personal, uh, and I,
I believe the role of a leader is to give
people permission to call out the bloody obvious when it
(14:16):
doesn't make sense. It's not OK that everyone knows the
emperor has no clothes.
And everyone in the room is barreling down a path
which is just stupid. So, having, um, having the ability
for all staff, regardless of their role level, to be comfortable,
that's how I like to lead. And I am never
(14:37):
the smartest person in the room. So I always ask
for people's views, particularly people who are quiet.
And leaders need to be really mindful that some people
don't like speaking up in a group, particularly people who
have a um a um a, a disability which is,
(14:57):
Uh, to do with, um, the way that they communicate.
They're just not comfortable doing that. But they're intellectually, the
way that they think is unbelievable. So I believe that
a leader needs to make sure that they know their,
their team, and, you know, I'm a leader of leaders
of leaders. So you can't know everyone that knows who
(15:19):
works for you, but you should give.
Your staff that permission to be OK to do, to,
you know, to talk to their staff and and create
that opportunity for staff to speak up. You've already mentioned
how important psychological safety is, but as far as practical
steps for organisations to foster an inclusive environment, what do
(15:40):
you see as the main hurdles preventing that in organisations today?
Um, so first of all, fear. I mean, I think, um, uh, for,
for leaders, it's fear of someone knowing more than you.
And I, I believe that's really empowering. As soon as
you release that as a leader, then you're free to
(16:01):
actually really, uh, lead, and inspire, uh, and understand what's
going on around you. And, uh, you need to, um,
constantly check with your staff on how they're going and
with the customers.
Customer. So constant feedback, I reckon, is really important. The
definition of a smart leader is one that's constantly getting feedback.
(16:24):
And if the staff are OK to get, um, to
tell you, and you're OK to give it, then you
can constantly, uh, make changes into the direction that you're going.
So I think that's the first one. The second one
is measuring. You should measure when you, when you begin
a journey, whether it's on diversity, you should have clear
(16:44):
metrics in.
Mind as to what your ambitions are. If your ambitions
are too low, then, um, it makes you lazy. Our ambition, uh,
I believe, could be much more ambitious. Our ambition for
leadership is 25% of our leadership team at, um, a
particular job level to be women. And we're only halfway,
(17:06):
we're only halfway there. So our ambition is too low,
and that ambition is to be achieved by 2030. But
I've been at this, um, on
Uh, you know, on the, the space of diversity and inclusion, uh,
at least for the last 8 years in, uh, in emphasis,
maybe longer. And I believe we, we should be aiming higher.
(17:27):
And we now have these metrics that leaders have to, uh,
adhere to that affect their financial performance. And then the
third thing that you need to do, which I think
is the most important, is you need to, um, remove
people from the business who are not on board with
the journey. And it's like
It's, it's like this frozen middle of managers who talk
(17:49):
the talk and do nothing. So when people join a business,
they join a company, they leave a manager. If a
manager has got high turnover of staff, particularly women, women
are really clever, I have to say, um, at, at
spotting toxicity in a team. And the number of times
I have moved from a team in different companies, um,
(18:12):
before the tsunami of poor.
Profitability has washed over that area. Um, is now, I
think I'm on, I'm on experience number 6. So I
can tell you that women I speak to, we don't
want the drama. We'd much rather leave. We've got other
stuff going on in our lives. And as soon as
(18:33):
you see turnover and you see women not staying in teams, you,
you gotta be prepared to remove the bias, to get
rid of the toxic leader and make changes.
that are in line with your culture and the direction
that you want to go. Hitting your numbers is not
sustainable if you're not delivering quality outcomes. Hitting your numbers
(18:57):
is not sustainable if the way you do it is unethical. So,
you know, really what matters at the end of the
day is culture and, uh, ethics and inclusive leadership. They,
those things drive good revenue and great customer relationships.
I imagine that implementing such widespread cultural change in an
(19:19):
organisation can be a bit like turning around a battleship.
How quickly do you think an organisation can expect to
really shift the needle when it comes to the implementation
of diversity and inclusion?
Um, I, I believe that 3 to 5 years is very, very, uh, reasonable,
with the right metrics on leaders. I, I don't believe
(19:41):
it's possible without metrics. This is, this is Liz Abraham speaking,
not on behalf of the company that I, I work for.
We now have metrics, uh, for the first time this year. So,
you know, I'm, I'm really keen to see, uh, what happens, uh,
with what gets measured.
Gets done now. Uh, but I, I believe that when
you put in place measurements that affect people's hip pockets,
(20:05):
they think carefully. Do they have, uh, women in their interview, um,
you know, interview panels, uh, to actually give candidates the
right view of the company and the opportunity? Do you
have a group of candidates, whether that is people with disability,
whether that's women? Do you actually, does every candidate look
like you? Which
(20:26):
Is a serious problem that we have, uh, in, um,
in business, where people hire people who look like them.
And that's just not OK, which is why you have
interview panels. So you need to be challenged by each other. And, um,
and I, and I firmly believe that 3 to 5
years is enough to be really bold and aggressive, to
(20:49):
take a good hard look at figures, uh, actions, behaviours.
and where the rot is and what changes need to
be made. And good leaders do multi-level skip discussions, because
sometimes the truth comes from people who are a long
way away from you. And you shouldn't be, um, you
shouldn't shy away from hearing difficult, um, feedback from people
(21:15):
who are multi-levels away from you. When I joined Emphasis,
that used to happen all the time.
And I was such a breath of fresh air where
I didn't need permission to call the CEO. I didn't
need permission to have discussions with senior leaders. It was encouraged. And, and,
you know, I can talk to anyone in our company
(21:35):
without worrying that I breached protocol. That's a good culture.
How important is top-down leadership and bottom-up support when it
comes to growing organisational diversity and inclusion? 100% the most important,
the most important thing. When I, um, first embarked on the,
this journey of diversity and inclusion focused on these three areas, uh,
(21:59):
hiring more people who have, um, different abilities, disabilities, um,
achieving equity on, in leadership for, for women. Uh, and,
you know, when I began, I, I just didn't see
any women in, in leadership, in, in emphasis. And, um,
and also, uh, increasing the amount of cross-culture, um, of
(22:23):
people from different, um, uh, you know, uh, different backgrounds
within the, the business.
Emphasis has a, a heavy skew of, of Indians that
work for us across the globe, and we have a
presence sort of everywhere. So having cross-culture was really important in,
you know, in the Australian context. When I began, the
(22:45):
only way that that, um, was possible was I had
the support of a whole raft of senior executive, uh,
leaders who were all men, by the way. And I had, um,
Uh, having male allies, um, all around the business, all
around the, the globe was vital, and these leaders at
the most senior level, uh, were incredibly supportive financially, culturally, and, um, and,
(23:12):
you know, um.
Uh, uh, you know, let's, let me, let me talk
to that person where I've got a relationship with and
you don't. Now, bottom up was vital because I didn't
have all the answers, and I wasn't even aware of
how controversial some of the things were that I was
asking for. So having
Um, uh, people who are graduates, uh, people who had
(23:34):
been with the company a long time, having males and females,
and having people from all different areas of the business, marketing, recruitment, HR,
line of business managers, legal, having all those different, uh,
stakeholders was vital too, because we had voice of the business,
including youth, and we also had, um,
(23:55):
We had the voice of leadership uh through our council
sharing that back, and we were able to challenge based
on fact, uh, and dispel people's, um, uh, assumptions, which
is a, a, a, a bias, uh, word where people assume,
oh well, you know, my wife, uh, looks after our
(24:16):
kids and has done a really good job on that. So, I,
you know, I don't.
needed, uh, I don't need to worry about a meeting
at 6 o'clock or 7 o'clock, or, um, you know,
I just assume that you've had kids, so you're, you
don't want a leadership role. Those assumptions, many leaders who
are older, they grew up in a different, uh, time,
(24:37):
and the bottom up and top down is vital to
dispel assumptions and stop lip service.
I must say we've recently started a grad programme in Vocus,
and it has been such a breath of fresh air
to have, uh, a new group of young people in
the office with new perspectives, challenging established ideas. They've been
(24:59):
great to have around. So I, I can personally, that,
that really resonates with me, what you've just said. Now,
if I could wrap up with one last question for you,
where I, I ask you to make one wish. I'm
gonna be a genie for a moment and I'm gonna
grant you one wish. If you could put out.
Uh, one wish to all leaders of enterprise and government
organisations to either avoid making a huge mistake or realise
(25:23):
an incredible opportunity, what would your one wish be?
Don't assume.
Ask, ask people who are not like you in terms
of gender, age, everything. Ask for, um, ask for help
(25:44):
to change, I, you know, so if this is about
diversity and inclusion, because this is the one reason I
decided to come back to work, given my diagnosis, my
one wish is that leaders ask for help.
And challenge, uh, where they are on their journey and, uh,
(26:06):
commit to that, that change. So don't make assumptions that
someone else will do it as a leader, just do it,
get it done. Ask for help and get it done. Liz,
can I throw a few rapid fire questions at you
where I'm gonna shoot you a question, give me the
first answer that pops into your head and we'll race
through these real quick. What's your favourite piece of technology?
(26:29):
My iPad.
How do you disconnect?
Uh, I walk, I, I exercise. What's the most important
thing that you do for your wellbeing? I eat really well, healthily.
What's one thing that would surprise people about you?
That I have a wicked sense of humour. I can
(26:51):
see that. What is one personal trait most important to success?
Passion
Last but not least, what is the one thing there
needs to be more of in business today? Respect.
Liz Abrahams, it has been such a joy speaking to you.
Thank you so much for your time, really appreciate you
(27:12):
joining us on the Vocus Inspire podcast. Thank you so much.
What a fabulous initiative and thank you for the opportunity
to share my views. Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this
episode of Focus Inspire, and we look forward to bringing
you more inspiration in coming episodes.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And don't forget, if you want more inspiration and more episodes,
head to Focus.com.au/podcast. You can follow us on LinkedIn and
Twitter to stay up to date with all things Vocus.
Listen out for the next episode of the Focus Inspire podcast.
Welcome to Vocus Inspire, the podcast full of brilliant ideas
for business.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Luke Coleman, head of government and corporate affairs
at Vocus, Australia's leading specialist fibre and network solutions provider.
Before we get things underway, we want to acknowledge and
pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the land
from wherever you're listening. In this podcast, we dive headfirst
into what's on the minds of Australian business and government
(00:30):
leaders to help inspire you and your organisation to go forward,
go further, and go faster. So let's go.
Hello and welcome to the Vocus Inspire podcast. I'm Luke Coleman,
and today I'm joined by Liz Abrahams, associate vice president
of diversity and inclusion, head of Asia Pacific for Infosys.
(00:55):
Liz has a bachelor.
In behavioural science and is a postgraduate business qualifications from Stanford.
With over 20 years in the tech sector, she's held
leadership roles at Infosys for 11 years, pioneering the APAC
Diversity Equity and Inclusion Council in 2016.
Her inclusive leadership led Infosy to consecutive top employer awards
(01:17):
and regional advancements in gender equality. Outside of work, Liz
is a devoted wife and mother, and despite a stage
4 breast cancer diagnosis in 2020, she advocates passionately for
health and wellness. Liz, thank you so much for joining
us today. Thank you. Why don't you start off by
briefly introducing yourself and tell us a bit about your
(01:37):
role at Infosys.
So, right now, I'm looking after diversity and inclusion across the, um, Australia,
New Zealand, Asian region, or the APAC region for emphasis.
I do that on a part-time basis because of my
cancer diagnosis. I have, uh, a lot of, um, chronic
pain from the, from the illness. So emphasis, uh, in
(02:00):
In terms of, um, their support for me has been
awesome in giving me the ability to work part time. Uh,
and I elected to come back and do this role,
which I was doing on top of my full-time business
executive role. This is the role I wanted to do, uh,
in the time that I've got left, uh, to, uh,
make an impact. This is the thing I wanted to
(02:20):
do most.
That is a remarkable story. Why don't we dive straight
into it? Tell me, what are the key competitive advantages
that an organisation can gain from having a diverse workforce?
At a, at a minimum, it's, uh, the ability to
have people involved in, uh, problem solving and coming up
(02:41):
with the ideas to solve critical client problems, which is
at essence what emphasis does. And
Uh, when you've got a whole lot of diverse people from, uh, different, uh, gender, ethnicity, uh, ages, um,
when you have people who represent, uh, the, the solution
(03:01):
and the community that the solution is there to, to,
to serve, you actually come up with the best ideas.
So you've got people challenging each other from their perspectives,
and you actually find things you wouldn't have found otherwise.
And you end up coming up with, uh, better solutions
for the client. Uh, and I believe when we do that,
(03:21):
we win more business as an organisation, and we build deeper,
stronger relationships with our clients. They see themselves in us, and, uh,
we see our ability to have, uh, much better relationships
with the client as a result of all these different
people from the different backgrounds.
Is there a way that organisations can measure the impact
(03:45):
of diversity and inclusion on key business metrics like growth,
market share, profitability, employee satisfaction? Uh, yes. So if you begin, uh, with, uh,
first of all, employee satisfaction.
Turnover is the most obvious measurement of, is a, is
a company doing, uh, well in terms of longevity of employees, uh,
(04:09):
the skill set of the employees, and what is the
staff turnover? And you find people leave companies where they
don't feel they belong anymore, or they're not doing their
best work, or they're not being paid what they think
they're worth, because, you know, money at the end of
the day, everyone wants to be rewarded properly. So, you know, turnover,
I think.
Is, is a really good, uh, metric. Uh, the, uh,
(04:31):
the longevity of employees, how long have your employees been
not only in the role, but, uh, with the, with
the company. Uh, you also have growth, and we measure, um,
we have very, very, uh, broad, uh, financial measurements, uh,
that affect all different aspects of all different employees in
all different roles. Uh, and we've introduced, uh, uh, gender targets, uh,
(04:56):
for the most senior.
Executives, uh, within the business on a global, uh, basis
to actually measure, uh, the number of men that we
have and women that we have. And we do that
specifically because our board have a set of, um, uh,
measurements that they are, um, are striving to, and we
(05:16):
have diversity on the board, and we want those same, um,
those same measurements to flow down to leadership across the,
the globe. Now, with 80% of our employees.
Working within the delivery parts of the business, um, measuring
the not only the number of women that we have, which,
you know, we've been doing that for a long time,
but the, um, number of women that are in a
(05:39):
leadership role and the impact that that has on the
profitability of the, uh, the various businesses. So we measure
it in different, in different ways, and we also measure
customer satisfaction. We also, um, um, and customers give us
feedback on the
Teams that they work with, and that includes the, you know,
(06:00):
the sorts of people that they work with. And customers
often mention diversity in terms of who they're dealing with. Um,
and we also measure it, uh, on business growth, and, uh,
the sales folks, which are, uh, the people that are
in those roles, have the highest paying jobs. And even
though they're not, um, you know, they're not the largest
(06:22):
portfolio of employees, they are the front line in terms.
Of who they're dealing with. So, yeah, they're very broad measurements,
but we, we absolutely measure it. And can you share
some examples of organisations where having a diverse workforce has
helped deliver improved financial results? Um, so if you look, uh,
if I start with tech, um, which is, you know,
(06:44):
the space that I'm in, there's a lot of, of
data that has shown that in our industry, even though
when you look at the number of men and women
and
Been pretty consistent in terms of the overall number of employees.
There are some companies that have actually done much better than, uh, than,
(07:05):
than others, whether that be on their financial performance or
on their win-loss, uh, ratio. And when you look at
who's in the leadership, you can absolutely see where there's that,
that mixture. And they seem to have a sustained, uh, uh, success, uh,
rate based on, um, you can see the, the
(07:25):
Leadership as it's changed. And, uh, you know, you can,
you can see whether that business is becoming more profitable,
and those businesses range from consulting organisations within the tech industry, or, um, within, uh,
the delivery parts of the, uh, the business. Um, I
don't think it's appropriate that I name specific companies within
(07:47):
our industry, but I can absolutely say, whether it's in
the US, whether it's in Europe, or whether it's in
our
area where women are in their leadership, you can see
the correlation on their performance. And in fact, um, McKinsey's, uh,
and a number of those, uh, large consulting organisations did
(08:08):
a series of global reports, and they were able to attest, uh,
whether it's in the fast-moving consumable industry or financial services.
You can see a correlation of a company's success, um,
and you can correlate.
That not only, uh, on the number of women that
are in their leadership role, but you can actually see
(08:30):
based on the number of women that are up and
down within the, the, the business. So the data's there.
And I feel like the discussion has moved on as
to why this is a good idea. And it's actually
moved on to what do we need to do to
achieve the ambitions that companies like ours have, and, um,
what changes need to be made in the culture of
(08:52):
organisations to
sustain that change and keep making progressions forward versus talking
about why do we need to have women in leadership?
Why do we need to have people with disability represented
in leadership roles? Why do we need to make it
a safe place for people who have different sexual orientations
to feel comfortable to work. So, I think, I think
(09:16):
the argument's moved on. We should do it, and it
makes business sense, but how do we implement it?
Now you've already spoken about how a more diverse workforce
can help with financial results. Tell me about the broader
impacts of a strong diversity and inclusion policy, for example,
in areas like organisational culture or innovation or problem solving.
(09:41):
Um, so this is the area that I feel incredibly
passionate about. I've worked in customer facing roles and leading, uh,
delivery teams, uh, in my career within Emphasis. And prior
to working with Ephasis, I worked for a, a very
large software company, Oracle, and I also worked for IBM
and also for Logicus CMG. I've been working for 3
(10:02):
30 something years. So in my time with all the
different companies, I've seen that having people from different ages
and backgrounds and abilities really helps, uh, people come at
problems from a different perspective. And when you're presenting solutions
to the customer, when you're delivering those solutions,
(10:25):
To the different stakeholders, what happens is people can click
with different people that are part of those teams. And
some of the solutions that you come up with, or
some of the problems that you wouldn't have been aware
of that would blindsight you, um, when you start, um, I,
what I've seen in my career in IBM, in Oracle, um,
(10:49):
you know, where they, you know, the diversity angle.
was sort of new when I was there, you know,
when I worked there, um, 19, I think it was
1997 until 2004, uh, and then IBM, is where, where
the best work experiences I've had, and in the teams
that I've worked in in Ephasis, uh, Singapore, Australia, uh, India,
(11:14):
those best experiences have got a mixture of people from, uh,
Different genders and cultures and ages, uh, and, um, people
with disabilities and different, uh, perspectives. And when you are
presenting to the client and delivering to the client, they
respond because they see that. So, um, you know, I've,
(11:38):
I've found it, it affects culture, it affects how you feel.
It affects, um, uh, the anticipation of
Uh, looking at really good, uh, delivery outcomes. And then
you can measure that in terms of have I hit
my milestones? Is the project profitable? Um, what have been
(11:58):
the issues with business change and adoption? And, you know,
there's an area that if you don't have diversity of
team members, then the cultural speak of, um, oh, I
didn't even think of that, or groupthink.
It is just terrible, and the impact on the outcome.
And I've seen it when that's happened. It's so bad.
(12:21):
So when you have people who are comfortable to speak up,
people who have got, uh, uh, you know, that won't work. As,
as a, as a woman, I, I actually, I, it
won't work. This is why. And, uh, you know, from
a disability perspective, actually, I can't see the screen. The screen,
the images are about.
Announcing that won't work. Oh, we need to test things
(12:43):
differently because it won't work in that environment. In so
many ways, it's so powerful. It sounds like it's more
than just having the right people in the room, it's
also having the right culture that enables those people to
speak up. So tell us, what are some of the
practical steps that organisations can take to foster an inclusive environment,
(13:05):
one that encourages
Diverse perspectives. Yeah, this is, this is so important. Psychological
safety in a team, in a unit, in a company
is like the number one thing. As soon as you
feel afraid to speak up because you're worried about, um, uh,
consequences or, um, uh, you know, retribution. And I've worked
(13:30):
in those businesses, let me tell you, when the company's
performance is going down,
And you call out things that are not working, whether
it's from a delivery or a business perspective, and you
get spoken to as if you are, um, a pariah,
because you're saying something that is actually gonna protect the
(13:51):
client and the business, it's quite terrifying. So, making people
as a leader, feel so
Psychologically safe, that it's OK to speak up. If you
do it in a respectful way, if you do it
in a way which is not personal, uh, and I,
I believe the role of a leader is to give
people permission to call out the bloody obvious when it
(14:16):
doesn't make sense. It's not OK that everyone knows the
emperor has no clothes.
And everyone in the room is barreling down a path
which is just stupid. So, having, um, having the ability
for all staff, regardless of their role level, to be comfortable,
that's how I like to lead. And I am never
(14:37):
the smartest person in the room. So I always ask
for people's views, particularly people who are quiet.
And leaders need to be really mindful that some people
don't like speaking up in a group, particularly people who
have a um a um a, a disability which is,
(14:57):
Uh, to do with, um, the way that they communicate.
They're just not comfortable doing that. But they're intellectually, the
way that they think is unbelievable. So I believe that
a leader needs to make sure that they know their,
their team, and, you know, I'm a leader of leaders
of leaders. So you can't know everyone that knows who
(15:19):
works for you, but you should give.
Your staff that permission to be OK to do, to,
you know, to talk to their staff and and create
that opportunity for staff to speak up. You've already mentioned
how important psychological safety is, but as far as practical
steps for organisations to foster an inclusive environment, what do
(15:40):
you see as the main hurdles preventing that in organisations today?
Um, so first of all, fear. I mean, I think, um, uh, for,
for leaders, it's fear of someone knowing more than you.
And I, I believe that's really empowering. As soon as
you release that as a leader, then you're free to
(16:01):
actually really, uh, lead, and inspire, uh, and understand what's
going on around you. And, uh, you need to, um,
constantly check with your staff on how they're going and
with the customers.
Customer. So constant feedback, I reckon, is really important. The
definition of a smart leader is one that's constantly getting feedback.
(16:24):
And if the staff are OK to get, um, to
tell you, and you're OK to give it, then you
can constantly, uh, make changes into the direction that you're going.
So I think that's the first one. The second one
is measuring. You should measure when you, when you begin
a journey, whether it's on diversity, you should have clear
(16:44):
metrics in.
Mind as to what your ambitions are. If your ambitions
are too low, then, um, it makes you lazy. Our ambition, uh,
I believe, could be much more ambitious. Our ambition for
leadership is 25% of our leadership team at, um, a
particular job level to be women. And we're only halfway,
(17:06):
we're only halfway there. So our ambition is too low,
and that ambition is to be achieved by 2030. But
I've been at this, um, on
Uh, you know, on the, the space of diversity and inclusion, uh,
at least for the last 8 years in, uh, in emphasis,
maybe longer. And I believe we, we should be aiming higher.
(17:27):
And we now have these metrics that leaders have to, uh,
adhere to that affect their financial performance. And then the
third thing that you need to do, which I think
is the most important, is you need to, um, remove
people from the business who are not on board with
the journey. And it's like
It's, it's like this frozen middle of managers who talk
(17:49):
the talk and do nothing. So when people join a business,
they join a company, they leave a manager. If a
manager has got high turnover of staff, particularly women, women
are really clever, I have to say, um, at, at
spotting toxicity in a team. And the number of times
I have moved from a team in different companies, um,
(18:12):
before the tsunami of poor.
Profitability has washed over that area. Um, is now, I
think I'm on, I'm on experience number 6. So I
can tell you that women I speak to, we don't
want the drama. We'd much rather leave. We've got other
stuff going on in our lives. And as soon as
(18:33):
you see turnover and you see women not staying in teams, you,
you gotta be prepared to remove the bias, to get
rid of the toxic leader and make changes.
that are in line with your culture and the direction
that you want to go. Hitting your numbers is not
sustainable if you're not delivering quality outcomes. Hitting your numbers
(18:57):
is not sustainable if the way you do it is unethical. So,
you know, really what matters at the end of the
day is culture and, uh, ethics and inclusive leadership. They,
those things drive good revenue and great customer relationships.
I imagine that implementing such widespread cultural change in an
(19:19):
organisation can be a bit like turning around a battleship.
How quickly do you think an organisation can expect to
really shift the needle when it comes to the implementation
of diversity and inclusion?
Um, I, I believe that 3 to 5 years is very, very, uh, reasonable,
with the right metrics on leaders. I, I don't believe
(19:41):
it's possible without metrics. This is, this is Liz Abraham speaking,
not on behalf of the company that I, I work for.
We now have metrics, uh, for the first time this year. So,
you know, I'm, I'm really keen to see, uh, what happens, uh,
with what gets measured.
Gets done now. Uh, but I, I believe that when
you put in place measurements that affect people's hip pockets,
(20:05):
they think carefully. Do they have, uh, women in their interview, um,
you know, interview panels, uh, to actually give candidates the
right view of the company and the opportunity? Do you
have a group of candidates, whether that is people with disability,
whether that's women? Do you actually, does every candidate look
like you? Which
(20:26):
Is a serious problem that we have, uh, in, um,
in business, where people hire people who look like them.
And that's just not OK, which is why you have
interview panels. So you need to be challenged by each other. And, um,
and I, and I firmly believe that 3 to 5
years is enough to be really bold and aggressive, to
(20:49):
take a good hard look at figures, uh, actions, behaviours.
and where the rot is and what changes need to
be made. And good leaders do multi-level skip discussions, because
sometimes the truth comes from people who are a long
way away from you. And you shouldn't be, um, you
shouldn't shy away from hearing difficult, um, feedback from people
(21:15):
who are multi-levels away from you. When I joined Emphasis,
that used to happen all the time.
And I was such a breath of fresh air where
I didn't need permission to call the CEO. I didn't
need permission to have discussions with senior leaders. It was encouraged. And, and,
you know, I can talk to anyone in our company
(21:35):
without worrying that I breached protocol. That's a good culture.
How important is top-down leadership and bottom-up support when it
comes to growing organisational diversity and inclusion? 100% the most important,
the most important thing. When I, um, first embarked on the,
this journey of diversity and inclusion focused on these three areas, uh,
(21:59):
hiring more people who have, um, different abilities, disabilities, um,
achieving equity on, in leadership for, for women. Uh, and,
you know, when I began, I, I just didn't see
any women in, in leadership, in, in emphasis. And, um,
and also, uh, increasing the amount of cross-culture, um, of
(22:23):
people from different, um, uh, you know, uh, different backgrounds
within the, the business.
Emphasis has a, a heavy skew of, of Indians that
work for us across the globe, and we have a
presence sort of everywhere. So having cross-culture was really important in,
you know, in the Australian context. When I began, the
(22:45):
only way that that, um, was possible was I had
the support of a whole raft of senior executive, uh,
leaders who were all men, by the way. And I had, um,
Uh, having male allies, um, all around the business, all
around the, the globe was vital, and these leaders at
the most senior level, uh, were incredibly supportive financially, culturally, and, um, and,
(23:12):
you know, um.
Uh, uh, you know, let's, let me, let me talk
to that person where I've got a relationship with and
you don't. Now, bottom up was vital because I didn't
have all the answers, and I wasn't even aware of
how controversial some of the things were that I was
asking for. So having
Um, uh, people who are graduates, uh, people who had
(23:34):
been with the company a long time, having males and females,
and having people from all different areas of the business, marketing, recruitment, HR,
line of business managers, legal, having all those different, uh,
stakeholders was vital too, because we had voice of the business,
including youth, and we also had, um,
(23:55):
We had the voice of leadership uh through our council
sharing that back, and we were able to challenge based
on fact, uh, and dispel people's, um, uh, assumptions, which
is a, a, a, a bias, uh, word where people assume,
oh well, you know, my wife, uh, looks after our
(24:16):
kids and has done a really good job on that. So, I,
you know, I don't.
needed, uh, I don't need to worry about a meeting
at 6 o'clock or 7 o'clock, or, um, you know,
I just assume that you've had kids, so you're, you
don't want a leadership role. Those assumptions, many leaders who
are older, they grew up in a different, uh, time,
(24:37):
and the bottom up and top down is vital to
dispel assumptions and stop lip service.
I must say we've recently started a grad programme in Vocus,
and it has been such a breath of fresh air
to have, uh, a new group of young people in
the office with new perspectives, challenging established ideas. They've been
(24:59):
great to have around. So I, I can personally, that,
that really resonates with me, what you've just said. Now,
if I could wrap up with one last question for you,
where I, I ask you to make one wish. I'm
gonna be a genie for a moment and I'm gonna
grant you one wish. If you could put out.
Uh, one wish to all leaders of enterprise and government
organisations to either avoid making a huge mistake or realise
(25:23):
an incredible opportunity, what would your one wish be?
Don't assume.
Ask, ask people who are not like you in terms
of gender, age, everything. Ask for, um, ask for help
(25:44):
to change, I, you know, so if this is about
diversity and inclusion, because this is the one reason I
decided to come back to work, given my diagnosis, my
one wish is that leaders ask for help.
And challenge, uh, where they are on their journey and, uh,
(26:06):
commit to that, that change. So don't make assumptions that
someone else will do it as a leader, just do it,
get it done. Ask for help and get it done. Liz,
can I throw a few rapid fire questions at you
where I'm gonna shoot you a question, give me the
first answer that pops into your head and we'll race
through these real quick. What's your favourite piece of technology?
(26:29):
My iPad.
How do you disconnect?
Uh, I walk, I, I exercise. What's the most important
thing that you do for your wellbeing? I eat really well, healthily.
What's one thing that would surprise people about you?
That I have a wicked sense of humour. I can
(26:51):
see that. What is one personal trait most important to success?
Passion
Last but not least, what is the one thing there
needs to be more of in business today? Respect.
Liz Abrahams, it has been such a joy speaking to you.
Thank you so much for your time, really appreciate you
(27:12):
joining us on the Vocus Inspire podcast. Thank you so much.
What a fabulous initiative and thank you for the opportunity
to share my views. Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this
episode of Focus Inspire, and we look forward to bringing
you more inspiration in coming episodes.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And don't forget, if you want more inspiration and more episodes,
head to Focus.com.au/podcast. You can follow us on LinkedIn and
Twitter to stay up to date with all things Vocus.
Listen out for the next episode of the Focus Inspire podcast.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.