September 22, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode, we dive into what life looks like for survivors of youth crime as they try to move forward through their grief. We also chat with Professor Selena Bartlett, a neuroscientist at QUT, about the developing minds of young offenders and her thoughts on who's really to blame for the current crisis.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You've heard across the last four episodes, the harrowing story
of Lee and Emma Lovell and their kids, these kids
making choices to do what they're doing, and Aaron and
his wife Christine.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I get that they use, but clearly lessons had not
been learned.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We've heard from people trying to make a difference.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Every day there's an opportunity for an adult to see
a young person in a different light and provide them
with that pathway to being a good human. And every
day there's a choice of that young person to be
a good human and to feel like they have an opportunity.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And some of the youths that have turned to crime.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
Bigger quantities of ice and sell it to friends and friends.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But after all this noise, all the news reports and headlines,
what happens to people like Lee and his two daughters
when they go home and try to continue a normal
life while they're in grief, living in the same house
that their mum and wife was murdered in.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Well, initially.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
I suppose I was like pretty numb from it a lot,
you know, a lot of it, And I suppose to
a certain extent, like I really struggle to grief forever.
And I think it's because you get like a I
found like I've had a preconception of what grief should
look like, and you know, you see a lot of
that from you know, I suppose you know from TVs
(01:33):
and movies where you know some women and you know
they sort of the can't get out of bed, don't
want to get out of bed, struggle to sort of
just live life and do things. And you know, I've
read before about even some people that get up and
get their kids to school and then just go back
to bed because they just find the day too hard.
But I don't know if this never never found that
(01:55):
sounds funny, But in some ways I wish I had that,
you know, But I just I went back to work
like six weeks after the event happened, and in hindsights,
I wish I would take a longer of work. And
it wasn't because I want to go back to work,
like you know, it was just that my work paid
me compassionately for a month, and then after that I
(02:16):
was dis expected to use my sick leave and I
didn't have some hours to take. But you don't know
what the future is going to bring. I think even
though I was like genuinely sick, later on, you might
need some of that time. So and I think also ways,
I just didn't necessarily want to be like sitting at
home by myself, like just.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
You know, contemplating what happened.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
So I went back to work, and I really struggled
to grieve, like I said, because you sort of you
got to work, you got to work full time a professional,
and then you've got to come home and then cook
meals and run a house and make sure the kids
are eating well. And I've got to connincids for school
and everything else. So and then it just failed at times.
(03:00):
There was then a little time forever, and you know,
you can't just switch those feelings on, and you can't
just I now I've got a couple of hours to
sit down and think about him. You can't just like
start crying. And it's doesn't work like that for me.
And I think also partly for me, it was like
because our house was like an active crime scene for
(03:22):
like two or three days and we couldn't come home,
and so I remember like walking in the door initially
and because the police had gone around were there like
printing dust stuff, and it was. It wasn't necessarily in
the hallways because they had a cleaning crew came around,
but you could still see it. And then obviously, you know,
(03:42):
the house was still a little bit untiny from Boxing
Day and Christmas.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
So I remember like walking in the door and think,
I need to keep busy.
Speaker 6 (03:50):
You know, I had a tidy way to ironing board
and cups and glasses and you know, and for a
lot a lot of time it sees off now, but
for a lot of times, a lot of months, it
was like.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I got to keep busy.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
And even at times when you know, I suppose I'd
felt everything I could do in a house cleaning or whatever,
and I sit down, and then I would feel guilty
for like not doing something, not to allowing myself to
sit down and have a moment to watch a film
or watching TV or have a coffee rather than being
up and tidying the house and cooking food and whatever.
(04:24):
And so yeah, I think I think a lot of
it is just like I said, I'll always end up
back of my mind about I think that's you know,
that keeping busy attitude and the mentality is in almost
like held off that grief and like coming in do
you know what I'm saying, it's like put it out bay,
or it's behind putting it behind a door and it
won't allow it to come in. So yeah, it's been
(04:47):
it's been pretty hard to deal with. But I found that,
like listening to music has sort of really helped me
at times, and a lot of music that really meant
nothing to him and I, but music I found recently
or you know, because I've got like hour's drive to
work and.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Sometimes to put music on and cry in the truck.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
So initially, like when when the sort of funeral and
everything was like kicking off, like it was initially like
sort of you know, ten plus people staying in our house,
but then a few of them you know, went back
to England reasonably early. They then went back and it
(05:29):
was just then the girls and I, you know, and
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
It was weird, just the three of us being in
a house.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
For Lee not having much family in Australia, he needed
the community to come together, and for the most part
they did. He had some close friends and strangers off
for a get help.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
But I've had a fair bit of support from people
since then, you know, like I said, like Emma used
to do whining for people, and there was one lady
there like Brenda, you know, especially surprise to me really,
like just her support that she'd been offering us has
been been outstanding, really, like you know, she and her husband,
(06:12):
you know, use some cars on the day and the
funeral to ferry some people around, and you know, she's.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Kept in contact when it works.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Sometimes I have to put down you know, like next
of kin and e merchant number and obviously always used
to put Emma down, but it's those little things afterwards
you think elvide I put down. So I started putting
a white Brenda down as my emergency number because she
only works in like North Lakes. And yeah, like just
(06:40):
other people through the girls school friends that we've known
have helped run the kids around at times, and you know,
other friends like Crystal Airs have you know, helped with
running the kids around and we catch up on that
other stuff. So I suppose it's not the same as
having a family around. And the girls and I went
back to the UK for Christmas. This one just gone
(07:03):
because I didn't want to be here for the first
anniversary and it was just so nice being around the
family and friends and just having their support, and I
don't know there was a nice thing.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
We've heard about the support that's offered to you to
help rehabilitate them, but what's offered for victims of crime
like Lee and his kids. If you're a victim of
crime in Queensland, you can contact the Queensland Health Victim
Support Service for free counseling and support. Victims. Assist also
helps with financial assistance with medical expenses, counseling, loss of earnings,
(07:42):
and legal expenses. There are also special provisions for expenses
after a homicide or for people witnessing violence. Lee has
been pretty complimentary about the support he eventually received. However,
was disappointed by some of the procedures that happened around
the night of Emma's death and when he was dropped
(08:03):
back to his house across the next twenty four hours.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
Like I don't want to seem like I'm criticizing like
the police, and I'm sure there maybe like they've you know,
maybe there's policies, procedures they've got to deal with. I
don't know, but I suppose from our family point of view,
like like I said, like that evening, like there was
you know, like I said, initially the girls around down
in Cat's house and then you know, Christ and Liz
(08:29):
turned up and from my understanding, like you know, obviously
a lot of the kids or the girls went with them.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
The police what.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
I've let to believe, never asked where they were going,
never asked for ID for my friends, never followed up
to make sure that they were okay, never went around
their house to make sure that it was safe or nothing,
you know, that evening, like I said, like I just
wanted someone to bring me back to North Lakes and
wanted to do it, you know, like I want to
(08:57):
someone to come to their house and hold my hand
or something, you know, sit with me on I told
the kids what would happened, and there was like nothing,
and then you know, I don't suppose I feel that
they needed to do that interview, like immediately after they
could have said that, you know, tell us where you're
gonna be and we will come around that house in
(09:18):
a few hours time. Go and be with your kids
and we'll see you later on tomorrow, you know, that
sort of attitude. But then after that there was a
QHVREESG the Queensland Home Side Victim of Support group.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
They sort of got in contact, and they've been.
Speaker 6 (09:37):
Really supportive towards me, and I suppose I wastive, but
not so much towards the kids really. But that was,
you know, I suppose I felt I wanted that support,
which is why i've sort of it wasn't necessary for
the kids as such, although they have behind the scenes,
like you know, they were trying to sort out like
counseling for the girls and I. But then but this
(09:57):
all takes time, you know, Like I suppose it's gonna
make you sound really lazy, but I just maybe wanted
someone to tie up at the door or say, hey,
let Lee be at this place with this time of
the kids, and they'll talk to about you know, rather
than like a generalized you know, I can sort something
out through you know, headspace, but you need to make
contact or do this.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
Do that. But then it was me then chating the headspace.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And then Lee and Emma's two daughters are teenagers, and
after losing their mum and their dad being the headline
for school holidays early in February twenty sixteen, they have
to go back to school.
Speaker 6 (10:34):
The school holidays were finished sort of end of January time,
and they went back to school for the first day
of school. So and I know what to do that really,
I think I thought it was good for them to
try and get some sort of normality in their lives and.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Be at school. I still need to learn.
Speaker 6 (10:53):
So and their friends super supportive. I'm guessing Cassie's got
a small group of friends that you know. Yeah, I
think she found some of supporting them.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Scarlet maybe initially, but maybe not so much. I don't know.
She's had a few issues with friends.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
And I I think, and I don't be harsh in
saying this, that like taking it to your listening, but
I think a lot of bitches, A lot of girls
can be bitches, to be honest, that you know, and
like they haven't been that great towards Scarlet really, and
I think they forget a lot of things pretty easy,
and probably because they're so wrapped up in their own
(11:35):
lives and maybe some people just don't care that you know,
what's happened to her really, So.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Was there ever a time that you thought I can't
live in this house, we have to move.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
No, not really, No, it was sort of the opposite, really,
I am because when we moved to this house, in
January two, at twenty eighteen. It was initially a rental
property and through the help of Amma's mum with a
deposit amount, we were able to purchase the house. And
(12:15):
you know, so we put a fair bit of money
into the house, you know, put a new kitchen in,
and flooring and decorating and a whole rafter things. Really
and I didn't want one, you know, pretty horrific event
to take away from the happy times and that's that's
in this house. And I just thought also for the
(12:37):
kids that you know, if we moved that another house
is just going to be like a roof and four
walls with no memories in it. At least with this one,
you could probably talk about times we've had in the house.
But we've got a where the hallway is leading to
(12:57):
the kids bedrooms, you know, I've got her on there,
and we had some pictures up there anyway, of our family.
I've change a few around to have more of Emma
up there now and of us as a well, and
I put some extra photos up around the house of ever.
And I suppose I just I wouldn't necessarily celebrate her life,
(13:19):
but I suppose I can't try and keep her name
in conversations. You know, we sit at the table like
every night till we eat and don't always talk about memories,
but you know, sometimes we'll talk about things that have
happened or that's happening or whatever, and you know, I
try to bring Emma's name into.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Conversations and.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
Joke to our you know, sort of lean back and
talk to her and say, oh, you know, I am
a lot of the girls attacking the mick out of.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Your or.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
You know, that sort of stuff.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
For they'll you know, they'll say that about her, that
sort of stuff.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
You know.
Speaker 6 (13:55):
It's just yeah, like I don't I don't want to
be forgotten or just not spoken about really.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So so I am Professor Sally in a Bartlet. I
am a group leader in neuroscience in Clinical Sciences at
the University of Queensland University of Technology. I am a
pharmacist by training, and I also just finished at the
(14:28):
clime of counseling. But my main expertise is thirty years
of studying the brain and what leads to mental illness
and why. One of my main expertise is really is
in addiction neuroscience, which fits a lot to what we're
going to be talking about today. But also I've worked
a lot in trying to educate police, is justice, lawyers, magistrates,
(14:52):
and government around trauma informed effects on the brain and
what leads people to do what they do. And that's
kind of why I also have a podcast called Thriving
Minds and why I write books educate the public about
this conversation we're about to have.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So Selena, thank you for coming on. And I guess
my first question is how does early exposure to stress
or trauma, like maybe a dysfunctional family environment affect a
developing brain.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Well, that's what causes mental illness and addiction, and it's
multi generational, so it doesn't just start with one family.
The brains been evolving for two hundred million years of history.
And so the first cell born is a brain cell
or a nervous system, and that's highly impacted from the
day it starts in utero by the environment around it.
(15:44):
And that's unequivocal evidence because we now know because we
can see inside the brain, we can see inside the
womb and show how the environment shapes the nervous system
and the person that is to become later. But because
it's so disconnected in time. We only look at people
and their behavior. We don't understand their human EXAs experience.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
We're not necessarily just talking about a family environment that's
happening right now. This could be previous generations of family
that this trauma has sort.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Of oh yeah, we know that for certain because we
can now sequence every cell in your body or your
DNA to put it in a simple way for people
to understand. Think about the Holocaust. So someone's in the Holocaust,
they survive, then they go on to have children. The
third generation of those children, even though they never saw
(16:37):
the Holocaust, still experience some aspects of how that was
handled by the family that survived that Holocaust.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
How does that then increase the risk of criminal behavior for.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Instance, Well, it's the foundation blocks, so basically, but if
you didn't experience any of that, you're probably most likely
aren't going into crime or offending or addiction. If you're
born to a very loving, supportive home, the chances of
your committed crime are much smaller.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
How much in your experience does addiction play a role
in youth crime?
Speaker 7 (17:12):
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
There's multiple reasons, but that's a big one. So addiction
is medication for stress and trauma. So if you're experiencing
a lot of neglect at home or trauma or stress
and it's multi generation, or what do you do to
what does the brain help you do to feel better? Well,
that's drugs, gambling, pornography, all sorts of ways that we
each handle that trauma and stress in our own lives.
(17:34):
And people that are selling drugs, and you know that
there's a huge network of people out there trying to
target traumatize children because they're the sellers and that's who
sells their products.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Would you class social media as a possible addiction and
an addiction course.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, that's out a lot in this space right now,
and that's because social media is now getting to very
young children and phones and devices connected to the internet.
So right now in Australia we're only on the leading
countries for this and so that's a complete conduit son
easy way to get to children that they've never had before.
(18:13):
So that's really escalated many aspects of all of this,
and one of the big ones is stealing cars, because
what's the best thing you can do if you don't
have any love at home or any attention in the
community or society, What a great way to get it
by showing someone on social media this fast car you've
(18:34):
just stolen. So the first thing they do is they
put it up there to show off to get attention
and likes. They're not copying the criminal behavior, they're copying
(19:00):
lack of attention and looking for attention somewhere, so there's
someone giving them a tension for that criminal behavior. There's
a whole cadre of advanced technology, networked people that are
helping people learn how to do this. Kids aren't just
doing it off the back of their hat, they're learning
how to do it from somewhere. And vulnerable children that
(19:21):
aren't getting the enough attention somewhere they're the ones that
get targeted into this kind of approach. And even if
you are from a loving home and you might be with,
say you end up with someone that is leading you
down that pathway, the chances are that you'll be pulled
out of that pathway because you're getting noticed by someone
(19:43):
at home that you're heading down the wrong pathway. If
you have someone that's not there looking after you at
the highest levels, that leads you to keep going to
the people that are giving you the attention you need
and so I just want to say, this is at
the highest level of society. This is not just this
is at the highest level. We have large amount of
(20:03):
inequality in Australia. We never used to have quite the
same level. And I'm also American and live there for
a long time. And if we continue down the pathway
of individualism where we're striving for bigger houses and cars
over people in community and connection, this is just exactly
what will continue happening. And you see it in many
(20:24):
countries where inequality is at the highest level, the crime
rates go up because people have nothing to lose. So
right now, in the Bay Area, where the inequality is
very large, much larger than here, but we're heading in
that direction, people are just smashing windows and cars, not
even to steal anything out of those cars. So that's
(20:44):
what I say to my community that's listening. Can we
make sure we understand that we're creating the conditions for crime.
So if we want to continue in this pathway or
where we are in a struggle to get the biggest
house or the biggest car and then allow a lot
of people to have nothing, because the things that we
by mean that someone else is So there's a there's
(21:06):
a direct correlation.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
What are some of the common misconceptions about youth crime
that neuroscience can help clarify.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Do you think obviously that the environments we create shape
our brains, so inside your brain, you are a product
of your environment. So therefore, if you're seeing crime, it's
a reflection in our society. So if we have good,
healthy brain development, then we want to help other people,
(21:38):
so we won't be looking at put blocking them in jail.
We'll be looking at what do we need to create
the condition, so we share our bounty downwards because if
we don't, we'll have to just keep going in this direction,
which means that some people have eighty houses and some
people are in the park where I live next door,
they're living in the bus stops and stuff like that,
(21:59):
and we walk past these people thinking it has no consequences,
Thank god, it's not us. But there is a con
sequence because we're paying for all of the charities, we're
paying for all of the mental health services, the police,
and we'll be building barbe wie offences around our houses.
And we know that can happen, and I see it
in other countries. We're not there yet, but that's the
direction we're heading unless we start to have these wonderful
(22:22):
conversations like we're having here with you, to say, what
can we do as a community, How do we come
back to Australia that makeship that village.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Who do you think is to blame for our current
youth crime crisis?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Well, it's the society, isn't it again. It's the global
it's the global race for individualism. And it goes back
to our animal nature in evolution, where we like to
in our brain we have to keep resources because we
think we're in scarce resources because we were once upon time,
but now we're not. We're in abundant resources. But we
(23:01):
still have that same animal instinct to squirrel away as
much as we can just in case. And we've squirreled
away so much. And that's the bit that people don't understand.
They just think I've had to get my bootstraps and
fight it hard. They might say, well, I had terrible parents,
but look what I did. Why can't they do that?
(23:24):
Because they don't understand just how much impact has happened
in the way their brain can work.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
It feels like a really big bridge to cross.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
At the moment. It does because of those conditions we
created that we believe in this individualism which is coming
from American culture.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
What are the small steps we can take now?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Right now, just reach out to someone that needs you
because you have all the resources. If you're listening to this,
you probably have a phone because you're listening to a podcast.
You probably have a car, a house, and some food.
Right now, all the thing that will make you healthier
if you want to just go to the individualism is
helping someone else. And so our human nature is designed
(24:08):
for helping up the people and connecting with other people.
And so there's one hundred ways that you could do
that today. And even if it's just in your own family.
So even see families not helping members of their family
where they have a struggle. And I know it's not easy.
So if you can't do it there, do it in
your school, do it at your workplace. Ask someone if
(24:29):
you know they're struggling. It is personal and it might
involve a couple of years of time. It's worth it.
So people say to me all the time, and I
can give one hundred examples of this day. Don't go there, Selena,
it's too much work. Our community needs that work, and
(24:50):
if we want to create the conditions where we don't
have these conversations and we're not blaming people but seeing it,
but pointing the finger back to us, to see our
contribution to the situation that we're in. That's the solution.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
In the next episode of Who's to Blame.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
I accept that a lot of these young offenders have
had very, very difficult upbringings, but we're in the so
called lucky country, right We've got the mechanisms to support
people to do something other than aow someone to go
before to court and have eighty two offenses before that
the community is protected.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
For me, you've taken someone's life fourteen years doesn't seem enough.
I get that they yoused, but clearly lessons had not
been learned from our incident.
Speaker 7 (25:42):
What are other governments, what other countries doing? What are
people doing that ultimately results in an effective outcome or
at least reduces crime rates, at least perfects the community
a little better than we're doing now. We need to
be looking at it and understanding whether that's something that
here in Queensland, here in Australia, might be effective to
defense the outcome that we're experiencing. Out and be in
(26:05):
my love of experience,
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You've heard across the last four episodes, the harrowing story
of Lee and Emma Lovell and their kids, these kids
making choices to do what they're doing, and Aaron and
his wife Christine.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I get that they use, but clearly lessons had not
been learned.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We've heard from people trying to make a difference.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Every day there's an opportunity for an adult to see
a young person in a different light and provide them
with that pathway to being a good human. And every
day there's a choice of that young person to be
a good human and to feel like they have an opportunity.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And some of the youths that have turned to crime.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
Bigger quantities of ice and sell it to friends and friends.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But after all this noise, all the news reports and headlines,
what happens to people like Lee and his two daughters
when they go home and try to continue a normal
life while they're in grief, living in the same house
that their mum and wife was murdered in.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Well, initially.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
I suppose I was like pretty numb from it a lot,
you know, a lot of it, And I suppose to
a certain extent, like I really struggle to grief forever.
And I think it's because you get like a I
found like I've had a preconception of what grief should
look like, and you know, you see a lot of
that from you know, I suppose you know from TVs
(01:33):
and movies where you know some women and you know
they sort of the can't get out of bed, don't
want to get out of bed, struggle to sort of
just live life and do things. And you know, I've
read before about even some people that get up and
get their kids to school and then just go back
to bed because they just find the day too hard.
But I don't know if this never never found that
(01:55):
sounds funny, But in some ways I wish I had that,
you know, But I just I went back to work
like six weeks after the event happened, and in hindsights,
I wish I would take a longer of work. And
it wasn't because I want to go back to work,
like you know, it was just that my work paid
me compassionately for a month, and then after that I
(02:16):
was dis expected to use my sick leave and I
didn't have some hours to take. But you don't know
what the future is going to bring. I think even
though I was like genuinely sick, later on, you might
need some of that time. So and I think also ways,
I just didn't necessarily want to be like sitting at
home by myself, like just.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
You know, contemplating what happened.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
So I went back to work, and I really struggled
to grieve, like I said, because you sort of you
got to work, you got to work full time a professional,
and then you've got to come home and then cook
meals and run a house and make sure the kids
are eating well. And I've got to connincids for school
and everything else. So and then it just failed at times.
(03:00):
There was then a little time forever, and you know,
you can't just switch those feelings on, and you can't
just I now I've got a couple of hours to
sit down and think about him. You can't just like
start crying. And it's doesn't work like that for me.
And I think also partly for me, it was like
because our house was like an active crime scene for
(03:22):
like two or three days and we couldn't come home,
and so I remember like walking in the door initially
and because the police had gone around were there like
printing dust stuff, and it was. It wasn't necessarily in
the hallways because they had a cleaning crew came around,
but you could still see it. And then obviously, you know,
(03:42):
the house was still a little bit untiny from Boxing
Day and Christmas.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
So I remember like walking in the door and think,
I need to keep busy.
Speaker 6 (03:50):
You know, I had a tidy way to ironing board
and cups and glasses and you know, and for a
lot a lot of time it sees off now, but
for a lot of times, a lot of months, it
was like.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I got to keep busy.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
And even at times when you know, I suppose I'd
felt everything I could do in a house cleaning or whatever,
and I sit down, and then I would feel guilty
for like not doing something, not to allowing myself to
sit down and have a moment to watch a film
or watching TV or have a coffee rather than being
up and tidying the house and cooking food and whatever.
(04:24):
And so yeah, I think I think a lot of
it is just like I said, I'll always end up
back of my mind about I think that's you know,
that keeping busy attitude and the mentality is in almost
like held off that grief and like coming in do
you know what I'm saying, it's like put it out bay,
or it's behind putting it behind a door and it
won't allow it to come in. So yeah, it's been
(04:47):
it's been pretty hard to deal with. But I found that,
like listening to music has sort of really helped me
at times, and a lot of music that really meant
nothing to him and I, but music I found recently
or you know, because I've got like hour's drive to
work and.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Sometimes to put music on and cry in the truck.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
So initially, like when when the sort of funeral and
everything was like kicking off, like it was initially like
sort of you know, ten plus people staying in our house,
but then a few of them you know, went back
to England reasonably early. They then went back and it
(05:29):
was just then the girls and I, you know, and
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
It was weird, just the three of us being in
a house.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
For Lee not having much family in Australia, he needed
the community to come together, and for the most part
they did. He had some close friends and strangers off
for a get help.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
But I've had a fair bit of support from people
since then, you know, like I said, like Emma used
to do whining for people, and there was one lady
there like Brenda, you know, especially surprise to me really,
like just her support that she'd been offering us has
been been outstanding, really, like you know, she and her husband,
(06:12):
you know, use some cars on the day and the
funeral to ferry some people around, and you know, she's.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Kept in contact when it works.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Sometimes I have to put down you know, like next
of kin and e merchant number and obviously always used
to put Emma down, but it's those little things afterwards
you think elvide I put down. So I started putting
a white Brenda down as my emergency number because she
only works in like North Lakes. And yeah, like just
(06:40):
other people through the girls school friends that we've known
have helped run the kids around at times, and you know,
other friends like Crystal Airs have you know, helped with
running the kids around and we catch up on that
other stuff. So I suppose it's not the same as
having a family around. And the girls and I went
back to the UK for Christmas. This one just gone
(07:03):
because I didn't want to be here for the first
anniversary and it was just so nice being around the
family and friends and just having their support, and I
don't know there was a nice thing.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
We've heard about the support that's offered to you to
help rehabilitate them, but what's offered for victims of crime
like Lee and his kids. If you're a victim of
crime in Queensland, you can contact the Queensland Health Victim
Support Service for free counseling and support. Victims. Assist also
helps with financial assistance with medical expenses, counseling, loss of earnings,
(07:42):
and legal expenses. There are also special provisions for expenses
after a homicide or for people witnessing violence. Lee has
been pretty complimentary about the support he eventually received. However,
was disappointed by some of the procedures that happened around
the night of Emma's death and when he was dropped
(08:03):
back to his house across the next twenty four hours.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
Like I don't want to seem like I'm criticizing like
the police, and I'm sure there maybe like they've you know,
maybe there's policies, procedures they've got to deal with. I
don't know, but I suppose from our family point of view,
like like I said, like that evening, like there was
you know, like I said, initially the girls around down
in Cat's house and then you know, Christ and Liz
(08:29):
turned up and from my understanding, like you know, obviously
a lot of the kids or the girls went with them.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
The police what.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
I've let to believe, never asked where they were going,
never asked for ID for my friends, never followed up
to make sure that they were okay, never went around
their house to make sure that it was safe or nothing,
you know, that evening, like I said, like I just
wanted someone to bring me back to North Lakes and
wanted to do it, you know, like I want to
(08:57):
someone to come to their house and hold my hand
or something, you know, sit with me on I told
the kids what would happened, and there was like nothing,
and then you know, I don't suppose I feel that
they needed to do that interview, like immediately after they
could have said that, you know, tell us where you're
gonna be and we will come around that house in
(09:18):
a few hours time. Go and be with your kids
and we'll see you later on tomorrow, you know, that
sort of attitude. But then after that there was a
QHVREESG the Queensland Home Side Victim of Support group.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
They sort of got in contact, and they've been.
Speaker 6 (09:37):
Really supportive towards me, and I suppose I wastive, but
not so much towards the kids really. But that was,
you know, I suppose I felt I wanted that support,
which is why i've sort of it wasn't necessary for
the kids as such, although they have behind the scenes,
like you know, they were trying to sort out like
counseling for the girls and I. But then but this
(09:57):
all takes time, you know, Like I suppose it's gonna
make you sound really lazy, but I just maybe wanted
someone to tie up at the door or say, hey,
let Lee be at this place with this time of
the kids, and they'll talk to about you know, rather
than like a generalized you know, I can sort something
out through you know, headspace, but you need to make
contact or do this.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
Do that. But then it was me then chating the headspace.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And then Lee and Emma's two daughters are teenagers, and
after losing their mum and their dad being the headline
for school holidays early in February twenty sixteen, they have
to go back to school.
Speaker 6 (10:34):
The school holidays were finished sort of end of January time,
and they went back to school for the first day
of school. So and I know what to do that really,
I think I thought it was good for them to
try and get some sort of normality in their lives and.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Be at school. I still need to learn.
Speaker 6 (10:53):
So and their friends super supportive. I'm guessing Cassie's got
a small group of friends that you know. Yeah, I
think she found some of supporting them.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Scarlet maybe initially, but maybe not so much. I don't know.
She's had a few issues with friends.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
And I I think, and I don't be harsh in
saying this, that like taking it to your listening, but
I think a lot of bitches, A lot of girls
can be bitches, to be honest, that you know, and
like they haven't been that great towards Scarlet really, and
I think they forget a lot of things pretty easy,
and probably because they're so wrapped up in their own
(11:35):
lives and maybe some people just don't care that you know,
what's happened to her really, So.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Was there ever a time that you thought I can't
live in this house, we have to move.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
No, not really, No, it was sort of the opposite, really,
I am because when we moved to this house, in
January two, at twenty eighteen. It was initially a rental
property and through the help of Amma's mum with a
deposit amount, we were able to purchase the house. And
(12:15):
you know, so we put a fair bit of money
into the house, you know, put a new kitchen in,
and flooring and decorating and a whole rafter things. Really
and I didn't want one, you know, pretty horrific event
to take away from the happy times and that's that's
in this house. And I just thought also for the
(12:37):
kids that you know, if we moved that another house
is just going to be like a roof and four
walls with no memories in it. At least with this one,
you could probably talk about times we've had in the house.
But we've got a where the hallway is leading to
(12:57):
the kids bedrooms, you know, I've got her on there,
and we had some pictures up there anyway, of our family.
I've change a few around to have more of Emma
up there now and of us as a well, and
I put some extra photos up around the house of ever.
And I suppose I just I wouldn't necessarily celebrate her life,
(13:19):
but I suppose I can't try and keep her name
in conversations. You know, we sit at the table like
every night till we eat and don't always talk about memories,
but you know, sometimes we'll talk about things that have
happened or that's happening or whatever, and you know, I
try to bring Emma's name into.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Conversations and.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
Joke to our you know, sort of lean back and
talk to her and say, oh, you know, I am
a lot of the girls attacking the mick out of.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Your or.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
You know, that sort of stuff.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
For they'll you know, they'll say that about her, that
sort of stuff.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
You know.
Speaker 6 (13:55):
It's just yeah, like I don't I don't want to
be forgotten or just not spoken about really.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So so I am Professor Sally in a Bartlet. I
am a group leader in neuroscience in Clinical Sciences at
the University of Queensland University of Technology. I am a
pharmacist by training, and I also just finished at the
(14:28):
clime of counseling. But my main expertise is thirty years
of studying the brain and what leads to mental illness
and why. One of my main expertise is really is
in addiction neuroscience, which fits a lot to what we're
going to be talking about today. But also I've worked
a lot in trying to educate police, is justice, lawyers, magistrates,
(14:52):
and government around trauma informed effects on the brain and
what leads people to do what they do. And that's
kind of why I also have a podcast called Thriving
Minds and why I write books educate the public about
this conversation we're about to have.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So Selena, thank you for coming on. And I guess
my first question is how does early exposure to stress
or trauma, like maybe a dysfunctional family environment affect a
developing brain.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Well, that's what causes mental illness and addiction, and it's
multi generational, so it doesn't just start with one family.
The brains been evolving for two hundred million years of history.
And so the first cell born is a brain cell
or a nervous system, and that's highly impacted from the
day it starts in utero by the environment around it.
(15:44):
And that's unequivocal evidence because we now know because we
can see inside the brain, we can see inside the
womb and show how the environment shapes the nervous system
and the person that is to become later. But because
it's so disconnected in time. We only look at people
and their behavior. We don't understand their human EXAs experience.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
We're not necessarily just talking about a family environment that's
happening right now. This could be previous generations of family
that this trauma has sort.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Of oh yeah, we know that for certain because we
can now sequence every cell in your body or your
DNA to put it in a simple way for people
to understand. Think about the Holocaust. So someone's in the Holocaust,
they survive, then they go on to have children. The
third generation of those children, even though they never saw
(16:37):
the Holocaust, still experience some aspects of how that was
handled by the family that survived that Holocaust.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
How does that then increase the risk of criminal behavior for.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Instance, Well, it's the foundation blocks, so basically, but if
you didn't experience any of that, you're probably most likely
aren't going into crime or offending or addiction. If you're
born to a very loving, supportive home, the chances of
your committed crime are much smaller.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
How much in your experience does addiction play a role
in youth crime?
Speaker 7 (17:12):
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
There's multiple reasons, but that's a big one. So addiction
is medication for stress and trauma. So if you're experiencing
a lot of neglect at home or trauma or stress
and it's multi generation, or what do you do to
what does the brain help you do to feel better? Well,
that's drugs, gambling, pornography, all sorts of ways that we
each handle that trauma and stress in our own lives.
(17:34):
And people that are selling drugs, and you know that
there's a huge network of people out there trying to
target traumatize children because they're the sellers and that's who
sells their products.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Would you class social media as a possible addiction and
an addiction course.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, that's out a lot in this space right now,
and that's because social media is now getting to very
young children and phones and devices connected to the internet.
So right now in Australia we're only on the leading
countries for this and so that's a complete conduit son
easy way to get to children that they've never had before.
(18:13):
So that's really escalated many aspects of all of this,
and one of the big ones is stealing cars, because
what's the best thing you can do if you don't
have any love at home or any attention in the
community or society, What a great way to get it
by showing someone on social media this fast car you've
(18:34):
just stolen. So the first thing they do is they
put it up there to show off to get attention
and likes. They're not copying the criminal behavior, they're copying
(19:00):
lack of attention and looking for attention somewhere, so there's
someone giving them a tension for that criminal behavior. There's
a whole cadre of advanced technology, networked people that are
helping people learn how to do this. Kids aren't just
doing it off the back of their hat, they're learning
how to do it from somewhere. And vulnerable children that
(19:21):
aren't getting the enough attention somewhere they're the ones that
get targeted into this kind of approach. And even if
you are from a loving home and you might be with,
say you end up with someone that is leading you
down that pathway, the chances are that you'll be pulled
out of that pathway because you're getting noticed by someone
(19:43):
at home that you're heading down the wrong pathway. If
you have someone that's not there looking after you at
the highest levels, that leads you to keep going to
the people that are giving you the attention you need
and so I just want to say, this is at
the highest level of society. This is not just this
is at the highest level. We have large amount of
(20:03):
inequality in Australia. We never used to have quite the
same level. And I'm also American and live there for
a long time. And if we continue down the pathway
of individualism where we're striving for bigger houses and cars
over people in community and connection, this is just exactly
what will continue happening. And you see it in many
(20:24):
countries where inequality is at the highest level, the crime
rates go up because people have nothing to lose. So
right now, in the Bay Area, where the inequality is
very large, much larger than here, but we're heading in
that direction, people are just smashing windows and cars, not
even to steal anything out of those cars. So that's
(20:44):
what I say to my community that's listening. Can we
make sure we understand that we're creating the conditions for crime.
So if we want to continue in this pathway or
where we are in a struggle to get the biggest
house or the biggest car and then allow a lot
of people to have nothing, because the things that we
by mean that someone else is So there's a there's
(21:06):
a direct correlation.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
What are some of the common misconceptions about youth crime
that neuroscience can help clarify.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Do you think obviously that the environments we create shape
our brains, so inside your brain, you are a product
of your environment. So therefore, if you're seeing crime, it's
a reflection in our society. So if we have good,
healthy brain development, then we want to help other people,
(21:38):
so we won't be looking at put blocking them in jail.
We'll be looking at what do we need to create
the condition, so we share our bounty downwards because if
we don't, we'll have to just keep going in this direction,
which means that some people have eighty houses and some
people are in the park where I live next door,
they're living in the bus stops and stuff like that,
(21:59):
and we walk past these people thinking it has no consequences,
Thank god, it's not us. But there is a con
sequence because we're paying for all of the charities, we're
paying for all of the mental health services, the police,
and we'll be building barbe wie offences around our houses.
And we know that can happen, and I see it
in other countries. We're not there yet, but that's the
direction we're heading unless we start to have these wonderful
(22:22):
conversations like we're having here with you, to say, what
can we do as a community, How do we come
back to Australia that makeship that village.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Who do you think is to blame for our current
youth crime crisis?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Well, it's the society, isn't it again. It's the global
it's the global race for individualism. And it goes back
to our animal nature in evolution, where we like to
in our brain we have to keep resources because we
think we're in scarce resources because we were once upon time,
but now we're not. We're in abundant resources. But we
(23:01):
still have that same animal instinct to squirrel away as
much as we can just in case. And we've squirreled
away so much. And that's the bit that people don't understand.
They just think I've had to get my bootstraps and
fight it hard. They might say, well, I had terrible parents,
but look what I did. Why can't they do that?
(23:24):
Because they don't understand just how much impact has happened
in the way their brain can work.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
It feels like a really big bridge to cross.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
At the moment. It does because of those conditions we
created that we believe in this individualism which is coming
from American culture.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
What are the small steps we can take now?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Right now, just reach out to someone that needs you
because you have all the resources. If you're listening to this,
you probably have a phone because you're listening to a podcast.
You probably have a car, a house, and some food.
Right now, all the thing that will make you healthier
if you want to just go to the individualism is
helping someone else. And so our human nature is designed
(24:08):
for helping up the people and connecting with other people.
And so there's one hundred ways that you could do
that today. And even if it's just in your own family.
So even see families not helping members of their family
where they have a struggle. And I know it's not easy.
So if you can't do it there, do it in
your school, do it at your workplace. Ask someone if
(24:29):
you know they're struggling. It is personal and it might
involve a couple of years of time. It's worth it.
So people say to me all the time, and I
can give one hundred examples of this day. Don't go there, Selena,
it's too much work. Our community needs that work, and
(24:50):
if we want to create the conditions where we don't
have these conversations and we're not blaming people but seeing it,
but pointing the finger back to us, to see our
contribution to the situation that we're in. That's the solution.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
In the next episode of Who's to Blame.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
I accept that a lot of these young offenders have
had very, very difficult upbringings, but we're in the so
called lucky country, right We've got the mechanisms to support
people to do something other than aow someone to go
before to court and have eighty two offenses before that
the community is protected.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
For me, you've taken someone's life fourteen years doesn't seem enough.
I get that they yoused, but clearly lessons had not
been learned from our incident.
Speaker 7 (25:42):
What are other governments, what other countries doing? What are
people doing that ultimately results in an effective outcome or
at least reduces crime rates, at least perfects the community
a little better than we're doing now. We need to
be looking at it and understanding whether that's something that
here in Queensland, here in Australia, might be effective to
defense the outcome that we're experiencing. Out and be in
(26:05):
my love of experience,
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