10cc's Graham Gouldman & Shelly Peiken: Tales of Two Great Songwriters

David & Phil share stories with two amazing songwriters. Graham Gouldman wrote some of the greatest rock classics of The British Invasion as a teenager in The Sixties, before becoming a founding member of 10cc in The Seventies. Graham is currently leading 10cc on the Ultimate, Ultimate Greatest Hits Tour playing their first American dates in over three decades. Shelly Peiken is a major American songwriter, writing or co-writing smashes like "What A Girl Wants" and "Come On Over Baby" by Christina Aguilera, "Bitch" by Meredith Brooks, "Almost Doesn't Count" by Brandy, and one of David's favorite songs of all-time, "Human" recorded by The Pretenders. Shelly also wrote the 2016 book, "Confessions of a Serial Songwriter," Grammy nominated for Best Spoken Word Album. To learn more about Graham, go to https://www.grahamgouldman.info. To learn more about Shelly, go to https://www.shellypeiken.com. To learn more about building community through food and "Somebody Feed the People," visit the Philanthropy page at philrosenthalworld.com.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 1 (00:23):
App phil Hello, how you doing. Oh I'm good.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
I heard that somebody in this room was nominated for
an Emmy award. Um, congratulations, thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
By the way, you might want to cut this. Someone
should have been again this year. Oh be you won
more Emmys than anyone I know.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
I have enough.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
No, but yes for the Grammys. I'm so glad the
Grammys were wrecked.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yes, but I well deserve.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
But I will tell you I was thinking about this.
This is You might think this is weird to say,
but I've been a I've had a first last seat
to watch somebody. If you'd feel success, I have nothing
to do with it. I claim I can claim no credit,
but I will tell you. What I know is that
the ultimate reward in any creative endeavor is the impact

(01:14):
it has on people, right, And I don't believe there's
any show in your world of like you could say
it's a food and travel documentary series or whatever they
want to category you put it in. I don't think
any show means more to the people who love it
than your show. I don't because because you don't made it.
You didn't make a show about food and travel. You
made a show about people and about love. And I

(01:34):
think that's the ultimate reward.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
I couldn't agree more. And I still am the luckiest
person you're ever going to be with.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
And I did vote for you, thank you, So I
want to demand a recount. I voted for you.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
I the Grammys were especially phenomenal this year.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Okay, enough about me, but enough about it. But I
want to tell you now something about us. I did
have the experience my sister and her family were in
Houston when the recent power outage happened and there was huge,
horrible weather and they had no electricity for a number
of days. And I got this where there was this
concerned text going on in the family and my sister

(02:13):
and her family at some point wrote we found a
way to entertain ourselves because they had already downloaded episodes
of Naked Lunch on their phone and they would go
to the car and use the power and they listened
to They said, we really liked the Henry Winkler.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
And I thought, Okay, this is our fan base. People
when there's no power, desperate for something to listen to
it for anything. There's our core audience, speaking of a
desperate for entertainment. We are now going to give you
two of my favorite songwriters ever, one of whom is
one of the maybe the greatest songwriter who I've actually

(02:52):
I consider a close friend. She might disagree. Shelley Piken,
who Shelley and Fran and Adam her husband, and we've
sort of raised our kids together, and I am such
an admirer of what she does. And you know there's
songs what a Girl Wants, Come on over, Bitch, the
song Bitch Meredith books Like it's sort of like, people go,

(03:14):
where did that song come from? It came from Shelley
and Meredith. But and the thing is, I always think
about that song because we met as Shelley's career was
as a songwriter was exploding. Literally, she had hit every
other day and she will talk to you. No, she
was so not a bitch. She was the least. She
never talked about herself to the point where this is

(03:34):
very good we're having on the podcast, so I get
to ask some questions because he was just me rambling
like right now. Our other guest is someone who Shelley
has met by wonderful coincidence, who we were approached about
having him on the podcast, and I was overwhelmed. Graham
Gouldman is one of the great songwriters since the British invasion.
He literally was a kid who, with a little help

(03:56):
from his dad Heimi Gouldman wrote some of the great
songs of the sixties for Your Love, Heart, Full of Soul,
Bust Up, look through Any Window. Those were the songs
that as a kid made me fall in love with
songs in the seventies. There was an anthology that had
these songs, and so he's played a utul in my life.
Then my third concert was tenn CC, the group that

(04:18):
he is. Yeah, he's keeping that band alive, keeping their
legacy alive and doing the first American tour right now
in more than thirty years. So let's talk to award
winning songwriters, legends and friends, Graham Goldman and Shelley Piking.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
Let's build the beans to the fat, food for thought,
jokes on tap, talking with our mouthsful, having fun, the
peace cake, humble pie, serving up slass lively, the dressing.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
All the side.

Speaker 4 (05:00):
It's naked lunch.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Clothing option.

Speaker 5 (05:07):
I love, so don't forget it.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
It's just the silly phase I'm going went through.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
I'm just because.

Speaker 5 (05:25):
I call you.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Today We're having a special episode featuring two great songwriters
I love, one of whom has maybe the first songwriter
I ever loved, and I've never met him, the great
Grand Goldman, who is as we speak, you'll as you hear.
This will be on the first ten CC American tour

(05:52):
in more than thirty years. I know this well because
my third concert was seeing Graham at the Palladium with
UH with TENCC was you and Eric at that point
in New York City, and it was one of the
moments that made me fall in love with music. Shelley
Piken is one of the great hit songwriters of today

(06:15):
who and I've never asked her any questions because we've
been raising where neighbors and friends. She and her husband
Adam Gorgoni, and my wife friend and I. So we
get I get to talk to a hero and talk
to a friend who I never bothered to ask anything out,
So all that being said, and.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
I get to talk to complete strangers exactly.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Graham, first question, just because it's such a it's such
a newsworthy event, how the hell have you managed to
keep TENCC, one of the great groups of all time
a going concern all these years and you haven't been
to America, you know, for the new British Invasion of
America is happening now with ten CC? How is had

(07:00):
been thirty years? And what's it mean to bring this group,
to keep this legacy alive.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Well, it's a joy for me to keep it alive.
I love the music, you know. I was one of
the creators of the music and the records, so it's
just an absolute pleasure for me to do it. I've
always loved playing live anyway, and if TENCC hadn't existed,
I would have still been in some other sort of band,
even if it was a band playing in bars, you know,

(07:28):
playing whatever. I just love love for, you know, working
with other musicians, And I guess one of the reasons
why we've never we've not been to the States for
so long is because we've had up various offers, but
none up till now have been practical for us to
do it. Just I think it's a matter of money,
to be honest with you. But this tour now makes

(07:52):
sense and I'm absolutely delighted that we're able to come
back to the States.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
It's brilliant And Shelley. The wonderful synchronicity is Shelley was
just doing her British Invasion in London, and can you
tell us how you ended up getting an audience not
with the Pope but with Graham.

Speaker 6 (08:14):
With Graham, So I was going to London to perform
in the Other Songs, which was a precursor to the
Iver Novello Awards, and didn't want to take my guitar overseas,
and it's the only one I'm comfortable with and I'm
very insecure about my playing. And my friend Phil Thornally,
who's also Graham's friend, promised me he had a guitar

(08:37):
for me that would be easy, and it would be
had the right kind of strings on it, it would
be perfect and when I got to UK, I was
very relieved to find that it was actually very easy
to play. But when I put it on, I realized
that the strap went from the outside of the body

(08:58):
of his guitar to of frets, which was different than
my guitar at home, went from the outside body to
the inside body, and it was a whole different balance,
and I felt like I was on a boat. And
I said, Phil, this is going to screw me up,
and he said, don't worry. My friend Graham has loads
of straps, and I think he'll be sweet enough to

(09:20):
lend you one. And that's how we met. We came over.
You actually offered me a guitar which was so pristine
I could not even but the strap was swayed instead
of just nylon cotton, and it didn't it didn't slip
around on my back, and so the balance was much more.

(09:42):
I could steady myself with your swayed guitar strap. So
I thank you again, my friend.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
I was happy to be of service.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
And speaking of being of service, you have been of
service to you. Both are in service of songs, of
bringing great songs into the world for a long time.
But Graham, it's amazing. How good we're looking. We're doing
this on zoom. You were rather dashing at this stage.
I'm very still. I'm so attractive. I'm so oddly attractive

(10:12):
to this man. I'm gonna go see.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
But not dashing.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
You are dashing, sir. You You've aged into being dashing.
I saw you when I was twelve. I didn't find
you dashing. So you've gotten more. You're only getting better.
You're only getting better.

Speaker 6 (10:27):
I did, you did?

Speaker 1 (10:27):
I did? And Shelley is dashing in the female sense
of a babe. But in any case, uh, my question
is what how how does it feel for you? Because
there are not many people heading on on a new tour,
it might be you and Paul McCartney. You are the
only ones who wrote. You wrote three or four of
the greatest songs of the mid sixties.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Stop Gone Away.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
The bottle stands a symbol of the dog no Milt
two dam. It seems a god side. But people bussing
by don't know the reason why.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
How good they it's it's insane that you wrote and
people who don't know this. And Shelley is a songwriter,
I probably know it. When you met when you met
Graham is it awesome to think this is the guy
who shortly after his bar mits for year. I don't
know if you had a barvah, but if you you
im you did right, because I I did notice before

(11:55):
ten sec you were in a group called the what
was it the Jewish There was a Jewish maid, the
Jewish Boys Brigade or something.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
It was called the Jewish Lads Brigade j LB, which
was a club in North Manchester where I met uh well,
actually I went to school with Kevin Godley, but he
was in a band that used to use one of
the rooms there to rehearse in. And Lol Crean was
also in a band there that used to rehearse there.
So this was really three quarters of what was to
become NCC matt at this at the jail v and.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
And and to think about because your your accent is
so Michael Caine elegant that as American Jewish.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Phil and I it is two American Jews.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
You were dashing and Yiddish, which is remarkable combination. But
you you managed to write bust stop for your love,
Heartful of Soul, which I love so much I named
someone else's book Heartful, Heartful of soul after your song,
because I think it's one of the greatest songs I've written.
And then then we could talk about all the songs

(13:00):
for Herman's hermits. I mean, that's all in your first
few years writing with your father, and I wish he
is he around. I know he's not your father. I'm sorry,
but I wish i'd met Haimi Goldman, who would have
loved it. He was a great songwriter, and.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
He was a wonderful lyricist, a writer. He wrote plays,
he wrote poetry, he wrote articles for newspapers. He was
an amazing writer. And I was really lucky to have
someone I could go to if I wrote a lyric,
I would take it to him and he'd say, I

(13:41):
can make this better, and he did, and often came
up with a song titles. I mean, no mil today
was his title. You want me to tell you the
story of that song?

Speaker 6 (13:52):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Please, that's That's a great song by Herman. Herman said,
we'll put into the episode. Yes.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
Well, he went to visit one of his friends and
his friend wasn't in, and as you turned on the doorstep,
he noticed that there was an empty milk bottle with
a note in it. So like in Britain, you know,
if you wanted milk, you had it delivered every day.
Then they take the empty milk bottle away and leave
you a full milk bottle. I don't know if other

(14:20):
countries do it. Maybe they do. Anyway, he came back
to me quite excited. He said, I've got a great
title for a song and a great idea for a song.
No milk today. And I told him immediately it was
a terrible idea, but he said, you're missing the point.
The point is it's what the empty milk bottle represents,

(14:41):
the fact that love has left the house. And so
you know that was I mean, there's a lovely line
in it. The bottle stands forlorn, a symbol of the dawn.
So nice. So he was very instrumental in writing the
lyrics of a lot of the songs. I mean, bus Stop.

(15:03):
He actually wrote the first verse. And because I told
him the idea of the song, I came home one
day he showed me the first verse and as I
was reading it, and Shelly, you might have had this experience.
As I was reading the words, I heard the malady.
Because the words dictated the timing of.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
The kedence of it, sorry, the ketence of it.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah yeah, yeah, just the way the words fell buzz stop.
What days she's that? I say? Please share Myra that.

Speaker 6 (15:37):
Hear that very often, just when people speak to me.
You know, My antennae are always up for for something.
Somebody says that will phrase in a song worthy way,
and sometimes I'm just so distracted by how they speak.
I'm not hearing what they say because I'm hearing it

(15:58):
all in like a song phrase.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, that's true, you're right. I don't know that. We
talked about that when we've got but I use the
same phrase the songwriters antenna is always up, and you
don't know when you're gonna it's going to affect you
and or how you know. I can be what. I
was walking by a building site and they someone had
a radio on. I couldn't hear any melody, just this

(16:21):
rhythm and just the rhythm of it. I got this
idea for a song which I was on my last album,
so it could come from anywhere.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Very human thing.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
I think a bricklayer walks down the street with his
antenna up that building could be a lot better.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
But Phil, interesting, Phil, you as a writer like you
always talked about when when Phil created Everybody Loves Raymond.
You know, it's the famous.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Which I love, by the way, oh thank you.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
But the famous thing is you would be in every
one of the guys would be in an argument with
your wife or or husband.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
If you work for me, your job was to go home,
get in a fight with your wife, come back in
and tell me about it. Because that's and sour antenna
was always up. Like even if we were getting in
an argument at home, you would suddenly go and Steve Scorvan,
one of our writers, would say that his wife would

(17:17):
see that look in his eye when they were arguing
and say, this is not for the show, this is
not material this yeah, and then he'd show her what
he would get for a script, uh, you know, money wise,
and then.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
She would be quiet terrific.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
But I want to you know what I I watched
the documentary just last night about ten sec the BBC documentary,
and you talked about the making of the incredible song
I'm Not in Love mm hmm, And a lot of
the talk was about the overdubs. Yeah, and so that

(17:58):
that song has such a dreamy, magical quality to it.
Ethereal I would say is. Yeah, I would say it's
the most ethereal song I've ever heard. It puts you
in other space when you listen to it. How many
overdubs were on that song? How long did it take
to make that song?

Speaker 3 (18:16):
Okay, well I'll tell you how we did it. Yeah,
we had a multi track recorder, I think it was
sixteen track, and so we had this idea originally that
we were going to do record the song just with
voices nothing else. So yeah, first of all, we needed

(18:36):
a rhythm track. The idea of being do the rhythm track,
then we do are these voices and take the rhythm
track off, and then we'd be left with the song
and the voices. But even when we recorded the rhythm track,
it suddenly it had a certain something about it that
we really liked and it was something that we've done
really quickly. We recorded it at the same time Eric

(19:00):
keyboard I played electric rhythm guitar and Kevin Godley played
a like a drum machine on a sort of kick
drum sound, a mini moook it was. And then so
then we needed to do the voices. So what we
did we knew we wanted certain notes. I think there

(19:22):
are about thirteen different notes, so go through an octave.
Plus three of us would go in the studio, Eric
Stewart would engineer and we'd sing one note and fill
the multi track with it. Then we'd mix that multi
track down to a stereo pair on another machine and

(19:46):
make a loop out of that note, so each note
had a loop. Then we spun those loops back into
the multi track, then mixed all those loops, but we
put those through the desks, so the desks. Each fader
on the desk became a different note. So the four

(20:07):
of us sat at the desk when we were mixing
all those tracks down to a stereo pair.

Speaker 6 (20:13):
Were you stoned? Were you stone really?

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Well? I certainly wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
But it's so it's so dreamy and dream like. What
was the influence for you to do that song and
what were you going for that sound from the beginning
or did you discovery were making.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
It to be all voices? So one thing I found is,
although that song was actually recorded in another way when
Eric Stewart and I wrote it, we were recorded it
as a kind of a bust and over it was.
It was like a sort of batter type of attitude.
But it didn't work, so.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Like, how would how would that have gone? How would
that have gone?

Speaker 3 (20:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (21:00):
No.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
I mean if if you were to just sing a
tiny bit in that style, just the rhythm of it.

Speaker 6 (21:07):
Nah, love.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
So don't forget it.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
It would have been a little Herb Albert, this guy's
in love with you ish but yeah, that thing.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
But the dreaminess of it is something we never heard before.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Oh Graham, I have to say this that my son,
who Shelley has seen grow up. I we often talk, well, Dad,
what's your favorite song of all time? The one song
we could agree on? And we've done a favorite albums,
We've never done a favorite songs. You would each have
at least one song on my favorite songs of all time.
We'll get to Shelley has a song that she wrote

(21:44):
for The Pretenders that Chrissy Hines said, oh boy, this
is more better of me than I have come up
with in years, and I consider that's one of my
favorite songs at all time. We'll get to that. But
I'm not loved. My son, who is into like we
went to see Croft Verk. He loves New Order. He's
there's there's no pop hit that he thinks might be
the greatest song of all time other than I'm Not

(22:06):
in Love because of the reason you're saying, there is
nothing on earth that sounds like that song. To me,
it's like you took the Beatles and George Martin's innovations
in your Strawberry studios and is it It's not Manchester technically,
isn't like Stockport is stop stop Stockport? In Stockport they
made I think the greatest recording of all time and

(22:27):
one that influenced a million things. But I honestly can't
think of a more And I Love A Day in
the Life and that came first and all that, But
I don't think like I think Steely Dan Earth when
in Fire and I'm Not in Love. Those are all
like height of But I'm Not in Love.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
As an experience, it like transcends music. It becomes like
you're come in this room and then you shut the
door and now you're gonna feel something.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah, sorry, shut up.

Speaker 6 (22:56):
I was gonna say a song tells you what it
wants to be, you know, so you started it out
a certain way and you were sort of following the
song kind of leads.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
So if you've got a good song, every production idea
that the song inspires works. It's easy to make the
record every you know, all the little ideas like the
girl saying big boys don't cry. I mean at the
end of it, there's at the very end of the fade.
I always like that thing where you know you hear
two melodies going on at the same time. Yes, it's

(23:31):
kind of really, it's kind of scary. So I had
a one of those toys that my daughter had, my
little she was a little girl. You know, you pull
the string and it does like a nursery around like
inline mice down. I was in the studio in front
of the mic doing that with it. So it sort

(23:51):
of faded in and out and it was like a
mad idea. But it worked because and it's right at
the end of the record. You might not even have
heard it, but anyway, it's there. I'm just explaining that
we're going to listen for right now. The ideas, Yeah,
all the ideas that we had between us, everything seemed
to work.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
And that's the thing about TENCC, because we'll get I
want to talk some Shelley songs. But the thing about
TENNESSEEC that is so unique. When I I've spent my
life studying rock bands. But the group was so fascinating
because it's it sort of literally doubled the Lennon and
McCartney of the Beatles, where you had two songwriting teams,

(24:30):
one of which, you know, Graham and Eric were considered
and if you're again it's always limiting to describe, but
they were the more pop genius ones. Graham particularly being
a pop genius craftsman, you know, really knew how to
write a song. And then you had the other two guys,
Godly and Krem, who were the lenin in that they

(24:51):
were a little bit more out there and experimental and
probably trying to counter the commerciality. And the result is
to me, again, I didn't see the Beatles. I started
going to concerts in nineteen seventy, you know, in the
mid seventies. But so I saw TENCC and that was
one of my windows into how great music could be

(25:11):
because it was to Phil, like Phil being this comic genius.
I will tell you one of the things I've always
I think it's an underrated thing about the Beatles, and
Shelley's a Beatles fanatic, is they really did bring wit
to popular music. And I think ten CC was one
of the Randy Newman and TENCC are only the two
examples where for me, you guys were like I did

(25:32):
Gilbert and Sullivan in high school as a kid, around
the time I was falling in love with TENNCC, and
I always thought, oh, TENCC are like the Gilbert and
Sullivan of rock and roll. They were so it's witty,
there's parodies, but it's not obvious.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
It was so Randy was told that comedy or humor
in the song would hurt him.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yes, exactly, said he said it to me, not that
long ago. Yeah, I was doing liner notes with him,
and he goes, it may have been a mistake to
be funny. But ten c C to me, do you
do you do you treasure the wit of so much
of that music?

Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (26:06):
I do.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
And And the thing with ten c C was we
weren't writing for you. We were writing for us, So
we didn't care. That was that was the whole thing.
So that is everything. We had no restrictions. We did
what we wanted. I've always considered us, I mean, people
compare us to the Beatles. We are like the children

(26:27):
of the Beatles in a way that that there we
looked up to them, they were they one of the
We had a few influences that were common to all
of us, all the members of the original band, and
certainly the Beatles were the number one, but we all
had different influences. So I would be more on the
kind of like Jimmy Webb, Backer Rapp, Paul Simon's side

(26:51):
of things, whereas Kevin Lowe were into Jacques Brell and
some more avant garde. Eric was more into that kind
of rock and blue and things like that. So it
was even with that the stars aligned actually when we
got together, and we were lucky that that combination. You
know what, little flight difference in usm' been a disaster,

(27:15):
but it worked very well for a number of years.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
And now you've influenced many bands that have come after you.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
I guess we have. Yes, I know that.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
And just to show you, and this is the last
question until we talked to some Shelley songs, but no,
but Graham, I will tell you, like again, I think
of you in that sophisticated backrack Jimmy Web tradition, and
yet you produced for Sire Records run by someone Stein
who I got to know literally my favorite Ramones record.

(27:46):
So sophisticated guy. There's Pleasant Dreams by the Ramones, and
we're going to put in a song called I'm Obsessed
with that album the song called we Want the Airwaves,
a song about you know, any songwriter could relate to.

Speaker 6 (28:03):
You want.

Speaker 5 (28:03):
That's right, you want?

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Uh you so you you contain multitudes as an artist
that I I I just want. So it's great to
meet you. That's my short life. Say it's great to
me it.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
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Speaker 2 (29:19):
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Speaker 1 (29:25):
Phil, are you gonna meet me pool aside?

Speaker 2 (29:27):
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Speaker 1 (29:31):
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Speaker 6 (30:10):
Wait a second, I just want to say that I
don't know if you know that I'm not in love
was actually on one of the first episodes of a
series called Eric.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Yes, Eric.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
It was weird.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
Got one of the boys in the band is here
with me now and he was telling me about it
and he and he said, did you know, Well, nobody
tells us anything, you know, but there it was. It
was at the beginning of the first series, and so yeah,
so we were just watching TV like everybody else.

Speaker 6 (30:44):
And it was interesting because I'm always looking at how
does the song relate to the scene, and it's not
really like it related to the story at all, but
it just gives you this vibe.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
This he gave it a vibe and we had just.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Met and there it was in the first one for
you first, but for both of you, what is the
movie or TV show that you most loved? You know,
hearing one of your songs pop up and it just
means a world to you.

Speaker 6 (31:14):
So I'd have to say What Women Want because that
was with mel Gibson, Because What Women Want had Bitch.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
In it, which wrote bitch with Meredith Brooks. She is
not a bitch, but she wrote.

Speaker 6 (31:28):
Bitch somebody some people might argue and he mouths it,
he like sings it in there. And also What a
Girl Wants was in that movie. So two songs in one.
I'd say that movie wins.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
For me and Graham. For you, what's the movie or
TV show that means the most of you were? Your
song had a New.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Life, I guess well, Holiday was in Social Network, Social Network, right,
that was a good id that film.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
And Guardians of the Galay and the World.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Guardians of the Galaxy I'm Not in Love with in
And recently there was Sophia Viguiera, you know from Modern Family. Yes,
she was a drug bar Pricinda the first Yes, so
in the first series, she goes to it. She's walking
out of a disco and a version of for Your Love,

(32:26):
like a disco version of for Your Love, And that
was like a real surprise, Like, Wow, that's amazing. But
I guess I haven't got a favorite. You know, anytime, Shelley,
you must know that anytime you hear your song in
a different context, it's really interesting, isn't it. Well, because
the publisher never tells us anything. A surprise, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (32:48):
It's and it's flattering, but your publisher you know it's
I don't this. We were probably getting into something we
don't want to talk about too much here. But I
sold my catalog recently. Before I sold my catalog, I
knew everything that was going to be in everything. Nothing
was a surprise. After I sold my catalog, like there
was this big AT and T commercial with what a

(33:10):
Girl Wants and everybody's texting me, going, your song is
in congratulations, And I had no idea. So I had
to call my people that bought my catalog, which also
published the song for many years. I said, just give
me the heads up on this stuff, because I mean,

(33:30):
I'm happy about it. But so that's why you're not.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, I know it would be kind of respectful, respect business, respect.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Of an intern call.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
By the way, do you know that.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
The sitcom is in syndication, right, so we never know
who they're selling it to.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
We don't know.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
I can't tell you the stations that it's on or
the platforms that it's on on. So it's a surprise
to me too when I turned it. This is across
the board. Yeah, no respect. We're all Rodney little guys.

Speaker 6 (34:08):
We're the little guys creating the product that actually puts
everybody in business, you know. But but.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Product, that's how they think.

Speaker 6 (34:20):
Well, I don't want to say content, that's how they
think it, right, But I mean the material, the art
is what I should say. We create the.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Out that it starts with the song, doesn't it without
this song?

Speaker 6 (34:33):
Nothing that's right. And let's you know, that's.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
All three of you know, all three of you and
me to a much lesser extent. You like in the
case of Graham, you had I think the Mockingbirds and
another group. You you've been you're singing your own songs
for decades, but you also have yeah, like a number
of decades.

Speaker 6 (34:55):
And he's got a beautiful out that your last album
was just beautiful.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Brand new, Yes a bind a new one with the Ringo.
We're going to put the track that you were that
Ringo's on. I spent my pandemic writing two books with Ringo,

(35:30):
you know, I and I and I think I was
too shy to go up to you at the All
Stars Ringo and the All Stars tour. Uh, but I
wrote the book on the tour on the All Star
band with Ringo during the pandemic. What we all have
spent our lives you three more successfully writing for other voices,

(35:52):
and like Shelley you you obviously you have a great voice,
and you're you, you have the look of a star,
but you have your career ended up going as a songwriter.
Behind the scenes. Phil, you were behind the scenes creating
one of the biggest shows of all time, and then
you've had the balls to sort of put yourself now
in one of the incredibly love show where you're on

(36:16):
camera and it's it's been life changing. And yes, and
now he's touring some of the same theaters, Graham that
you will will be playing no joke. It's like people
are going to see Phil, but I don't sing yep.
But what's that? Yes? Support act?

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, I'd be the opener for you and I'd be
booed off the stage.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
The most annoyable, the most annoyed person by Phil's success
is in a loving way is Ray Romano. Who can
you say? What Ray's reaction when he sees you playing
these theaters he played? What world are we in.

Speaker 8 (36:53):
It?

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (36:55):
We spend nine years with a guy, That's what happens.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Oh, but writing for other voices, what have you learned?
I do that in a different way writing speeches and
for these TV shows. But it's like a different art
to be able to collaborate and write for other voices.

Speaker 6 (37:10):
Well, when I'm writing for somebody else to sing a song,
I'm actually I'm not always and most often not collaborating
with the artist unless they're in the room, which they
are these days, but back then usually they weren't in
the room. And something that Graham said before, I write

(37:31):
for me, not you, I'd say I owe. My most
successfully commercial songs have always been songs that I approached
from how am I feeling? And who's going to relate
to this and sing it?

Speaker 3 (37:50):
Soon?

Speaker 6 (37:50):
As I said, Oh, what will Kelly Clarkson say?

Speaker 7 (37:54):
What?

Speaker 6 (37:54):
Is she thinking I've never been good at that. There
are some people that are, and I admire it, and
I wish I was better at that. I was always
better at my You know. It's something confessional that was
about my world that was actually universal to everybody.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
So, for instance, where did bitch actually start?

Speaker 6 (38:15):
So bitch started? I was coming home from a session.
I was in a really bad mood. PMS had a
little bit to do with it, but it was more.
It was more about I felt like everybody around me,
all my friends, all of my peers were having these
big hits and I didn't have one. And I just
came from another session and I was going home and
I stopped at a red light and I was smoking

(38:36):
my probably my last cigarette because I was soon to
be pregnant. And I had this thought, I just hate
the world today, and I'm going home to my guy,
and he loves me no matter what, even when I
could be such a bitch. And then I thought, oh
my god, because you have to your antenna or up,
you have to listen to yourself too. You have to
listen to yourself. And I had met Meredith recently. We

(39:00):
had considered working together. We had taken loads of walks,
which is something we used to do before we actually
wrote with somebody. And I thought, who can I call
who would get this. I'm not going to call just
any buddy who wants to be a pop star, you know,
who will get this. I've talked to her enough, she
knows this feeling, and I called her. She came over

(39:23):
the next day and we sat in a room with
a little guitar, a little guitar, an acoustic guitar, but
just one instrument, no beatbox, no track, and we just
pink ponged the lyrics. She ran into the canyon, had
the song demoed, and she took it to I think
Inner Scope, where she had a development deal, and if

(39:45):
they passed on one more song, she was allowed to
take it elsewhere. And they passed, and she went over
to Perry Watts Russell at Capitol and she called and
said it's going to come out. And I thought, yeah, sure,
you know, because I was so used to that story
and it changed my.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
Life amazing, Yeah, wonderful.

Speaker 6 (40:04):
But related. You know, I still meet women today who say,
you know, and daughters of women who that song was
an anthem for them, who still relate to I mean song.
I think the difference I'm overstepping my answer here. Songs
that came out then they had the potential to have

(40:27):
legs to last for decades, whereas now everything is a
lot more fast food. They come, they go very quickly.
So I mean to have that song relate to so many,
not just women, you know, gender fluid, whoever feels that way.
We are all complicated, we are not just one thing.

(40:49):
We reclaimed the word and that song for me is
a signature piece, and I'm grateful for how long it's lasted.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Who do you guys listen to today?

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Who do you like?

Speaker 3 (41:17):
I've been actually listening to quite a lot of classical music.
I've always been a fan of Daboos. I think that
he you like the oldies? Would? Yeah? Really?

Speaker 1 (41:28):
Should we have him on the podcast? Can you give
us quads a email?

Speaker 6 (41:36):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Yeah, I've been listening to quite a lot of classical musicos.
I've always sort of liked him. I feel he's there's
something very modern about like his chord sequences I can
relate to somehow, although God I wish I could have,
you know, created some of them.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
He's a monster well, and Claire the Loon is pretty
dream like, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, yeah, very and for Williams as well. I like,
so that's that's really it. And otherwise just hearing whatever's
you know going on in the in the ether. There's
there's not I can't say there's anybody in particular of
modern day. I mean, there's a lot of the Billie
Alish stuff that I really like.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Oh, she's so great.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
I think she's a very brilliant. The power of them.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
I love that you're you're a fan of hers because
that I mean, I think she's the one right now
with your brother yes, yes, with her brothers, yeah, with
his own as well, And it just shows you just
you just need a bedroom and a microphone, right, well,
it's incredible.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, Actually, you're right. It's all in the song. Yes,
you could be in a billion pounds studio with the
finest musicians in the world. If the song's not right,
forget it.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (42:52):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Nebraska Springsteen's record just him and the acoustic guitar in
his old bedroom inspired There you Go, Yes, There You Go,
and had a.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Whole concept album even out of it, right, and then
he went into the studio and tried to play with
the EA Street bender. We all love it, Yes, and
yet stripped him back down the magic.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
You've heard of demo syndrome. Yes, well the demo, of course,
I played this guitar. It doesn't sound the same. I
mean on my new album. There are parts of the
album that were uh, just on in my own studio,
and I got them into proper studio with my co producer,
and I said, it doesn't sound as good. Let's just

(43:32):
use what I did on the demo. Yes, it sounded great.
I couldn't reproduce it.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
In other word, to talk to show that. Let's hear
my favorite songs. My top ten include a song called
Human by Shelley cut by the Pretenders in a couple
different versions. But I got into an argument with her
husband Adam Gorgoni just the other night because he says, no,
the best version is Shelley's demo. So it with Shelley's permission,
we're gonna hear. Let's hear a little of Shelley's demo

(43:59):
for Youmansinghi Johnster, And now let's hear my favorite version.

(44:28):
I love Shelley. I'm such a Christy Hind fanatic, and
I think this is the best song She's had in
you know, the last few decades. Let's hear uh the
pretender's doing Human Shelly song.

Speaker 5 (44:46):
Sounds. See Megan, I thought you'd come. I thought you'd
come Green. You were the best thing I.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Should And can you tell us shell you the story
of Human because it had an unusual birth. It sort
of came through the Divinyls and I got.

Speaker 6 (45:17):
To you know, it all started in a diner. I
was sitting across from a friend who hurt my feelings.
I took my market, I took my napkin. I went
into the restroom. I scratched out some lyrics. I still
have the napkin in the moment, in the moment from
real life. Imagine that, you know. And my publisher, it

(45:39):
Hit and Run at the time, fixed me up with
Mark McEntee, who was half of the Divinyls, and he
came over and I showed him this lyric and he
started playing these major seventh chords and I'm just like
a sucker from Major seventh. Human was born.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
He recorded it with.

Speaker 6 (46:00):
The Di Vinyls with Christine May she Rest Peacefully and
that was very grungy, sort of went up the chart
in Australia and didn't reach the top kind of mid
charted and came down, and I thought, well, that's the
end of that.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
And then.

Speaker 6 (46:22):
I think Chrissy hind heard it through a friend of
hers who was hanging her curtains on the wall. So
the story goes, and she said, what's that. It was
just unheard of that a song gets recorded twice by
two prominent artists, one right after the other. And she,

(46:42):
you know, Chrissy's just a special kind of artist. She
doesn't have the same kind of ego. She doesn't have
to I have to write on everything. She something in
the song connected with her, and she took it upon
herself to record it. What I also find is interesting
is in the demo, in the chorus I go, the

(47:06):
melody is and Chrissy goes. She changed the contour of
that melody. I think she made it better. It was
less busy, and never said I want a piece stuff
she's listening. Now. Seven years has come and gone, but

(47:30):
I thought, wow, I really did what she did there,
and now when I perform and I do it the
same way she did.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Sorry, I'm sorry. Shelley's just reminded me of a similar
story that I have about the artists changing something and
how I felt about it because you just said you
they made it better. Well, when the Hollins recorded Lots,
any window they changed one of the chords, uh, in

(48:00):
the in the in the every morning I would see
who waiting at the stuff. They changed one of the cords.

(48:24):
I had like a suspended chord that resolved, and they
did a two very basic cords, and when I heard it,
I would go because I'm very precious about my thoughts details,
So as much as I loved what they did, I
was going, oh god, I wish they wouldn't have done that.
But I found that as a record went up the charts, the.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
More I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
It's like a theory of chart relativity. You get more,
they grow fonder with time, exactly.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Listen, you write stuff for people and you have it
in your head a certain way, and then when they
don't do it that way, it, of course it's disconcerting. Yeah,
I wouldn't have written it that way if you didn't
care about it.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
With the Yardbirds on both for your Lavanhartle Soul, they
did change it a lot, and I thought that both
those were amazing.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Well, that's the beautiful thing is when you see it
right in front of you and go, oh my god,
they took my thing and made it way better.

Speaker 6 (49:28):
That's the great Usually it's the other way around.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Well, yes, people the ruin things.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yes, Graham, I have to ask this again. This is
my deep fan question. I always wondered, uh, because here's
a story about Graham. I don't you might not even
know this. He went, uh. And by the way, I
once cornered Neil Sadaka at a party with Diane Warren
introduced me to Neil Sadaka, and I said, oh my god,
can we talk Tennesseec. Because one of the many things

(49:55):
about Tennesseec that is just wild is Meal Sadaka ends
up in their studio in Stockport at Strawberry Studios and
has his seventies comeback with ten CC. Because yeah, and
I think in large part I'm going to give I
think Graham is one of the real geniuses who can
make any songs better. And Neil Daka a great songwriter.

(50:16):
But that stuff with Theilsidaka Ultimate Pro who's going to
be on the podcast?

Speaker 3 (50:22):
The Ultimate Pro is right? The Ultimate Pro is right?
And he he was just so great. He was completely
prepared for everything. What the story was that Harvey Lisberg,
who managed me at the time, had met Neil in
New York. I think Neil was coming over to play
at a working men's club. He was doing all sorts

(50:44):
of things, you know, for his life, and Harvey said,
why didn't he come over to Stockport, which was where
he was working, and meet these guys have got their
own studio. Blah blah blah. So I went to meet Neil,
went through all the songs with him, went back to
the studio with a cassette tape and wrote sort of

(51:04):
very rough chord charts for me and allowed to play.
Neil would come into the studio, Kevin would play the drums,
Lola and I would play guitar. Eric would engineer, Neil
would set the piano, play the piano and do the
lead vocal at the same time. That's why we made

(51:25):
this first album, the Solitire Album or Tralla Dazer Over.
I was getting mixed up in that two weeks. It
was unbelievable, and we're gonna.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
We're gonna feature a song or two from that because
those records are phenomenal, just phenomenal. Lovegether Baby whenever.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Yeah, I'm really proud of those records, and it was
it was great for us at that time. There were
lots of things that happened that bought the four original
members of Tennesseec together, and that certainly was one of them.
And working with Neil was an absolute joy, just the
craftsmanship of the songs and the performance and the professional

(52:24):
how professional he was.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
And but here's the thing, the fan, the deep fan
question is before all that Graham was such a genius
singer songwriter that he was brought over by these guys,
is it cast nets cats? The guys started bubblegum like
that short lived you know, uh, yummy, yummy, yummy, I
got love and my temmy all that stuff. He was
brought over by two more quirky Jews in New York.

(52:50):
You were you, weren't you important to New York to
basically be part of their factory.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
What I say is, with that period, every cloud has
a silver liding. Okay, because it really wasn't my cup
of tea. I think what I really liked Jerry and Jeff,
they were great. I think they wanted to kind of
up the game of the maybe get out of the
bubblegum thing a bit so the songs that I wrote

(53:19):
for them in New York, I said, look, we've got
I'm involved in a studio. I'm a partner in the
studio back home. Let me take the songs and record
them with the guys that I know. And that was
actually ten CC on those records before we were ten CC.
So you know, it was one of those things that

(53:39):
was part of the you know, the glue that held
us you know, well, not brought us together, but you know,
the work that we did for them helped us unite us.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
And I always think like, you know, they tried to
bring you into sort of revived the brill building, and
you created your own brill building in you know, in
stock or you know, somehow you created this hot bed.
And I always think when I met Shelley, I told
her this. I always I thought, I feel like you
are Like there was a songwriter in the Philly scene,
a white woman who was a lyricist wrote half my

(54:14):
favorite songs with Tom Bell, Linda Creed, And I said,
you're like Linda Creed, like and you know, Graham from
your point of view, like when you were starting out,
were there a lot of women in the songwriting world
and in London, because Shelley is part of a generation
that really has blasted down some doors and even written

(54:34):
like the one of the threads of your songs, your
hits even is this sort of female empowerment like you know,
and you wrote with obviously with Christine. You know you
wrote for Christine Aguilera. Christine Aguilera, you wrote with Britney Spears, No,
you wrote, you wrote for her for her, you wrote

(54:56):
obviously a smash for Brandy.

Speaker 5 (55:02):
Have the ground verve almost an I can't keep on.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
And here's something you might not know. With both of you,
you both wrote for Share. Can you each name your
song for that Share recorded? Yes, Graham, do you remember
what song Share recorded from you?

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Yeah? Behind the Door, which is great? Uh yeah, I
love that song. Yeah, yeah, it's I love that opening
riff that I did. It's just something so like dark.

Speaker 6 (55:44):
M hm.

Speaker 5 (55:46):
Hm behind the.

Speaker 7 (55:49):
Door of every house, in every street, in every child
the story Star.

Speaker 6 (56:06):
And then Shelly, what was yours was called rain Rain.
Maybe it was called rain rain, rain or rain. It
had a lot of rains in it and I don't
remember how it went, but I wrote it with g
Roach and we were thrilled.

Speaker 5 (56:20):
Window World.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
St e, Massy Rain, Rain, Fallen Bound.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Prime, It's the Weld Prain Rain and and real fun
Rain Rain.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
And you now you wrote a Selene song.

Speaker 6 (56:46):
I wrote four Celene songs, four Celene songs.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Now, Graham, do you have a Celene song?

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Selene cover that like a new game?

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Yes, exactly, I don't have a Celene song.

Speaker 6 (56:58):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
What was your selenixperience? Because I will tell you I
wrote in talking about how we all write for other voices.
I got to write many times, including this year's Grammys,
for Selene when she spoke, and I have always said, like,
and this is maybe like who she is as a person,
as a vehicle to convey emotion. She has never asked
me to change a word of anything I've written for

(57:20):
her to say, I always ask her, and she goes,
I love what you have said, and I will invest
totally in it. And she goes out whatever words it
is speech you give her, she will sell unbelievable, like
I'm just so gracious. What was it, Celen?

Speaker 6 (57:36):
You know what? This was a time when we weren't
always in the studio when your song was recorded, And
in fact, I was never invited to be at the studio.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
They don't want the writer on the set.

Speaker 6 (57:52):
Well I wouldn't have said anything. I would have said
what say Wyatt?

Speaker 2 (57:57):
But they still don't want you see her face.

Speaker 6 (58:01):
Perhaps they didn't think I would be so quiet, you know,
and perhaps I wouldn't have been so But a number
of years after she recorded these songs, I was going
to Vegas and I knew she was in the studio
and I arranged through Veto to come by. And at
least after all those years and those songs, I wanted

(58:24):
to say hello. I wanted to meet her. I wanted
to touch her hand, and that I did, and she
was lovely and gracious and I'm you know, I watched
her doc recently. I think she's brave, and I think
she's got a lot of class.

Speaker 7 (58:44):
You know.

Speaker 6 (58:44):
Somebody voice, Oh what a voice. You know. Somebody took
their Grammy from her hand and didn't acknowledge her this
past this past season, and she was totally graceful.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
I've never not seen her be gracious. It's like being
working on these shows like the Grammys, you see who
people are, and like she treats every any pa who
brings her to the microphone. She is just thank you
very much. It's just that I wonder she's raised well
with you, Graham? Are there people like did you everyone

(59:24):
you ever cut your songs ever have a chance to
thank you?

Speaker 7 (59:27):
You know?

Speaker 1 (59:28):
Was everyone gracious?

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Yes? Yes, well, particularly Graham match that's always great, very complimentary,
complimentary about me and acknowledges the fact that the fact
that they recorded Bus Scot changed his life, you know,
because it broke her big in America. So generally, I

(59:51):
mean the people that I've written for, like Peter Noon
still gives me a shout out when he does no
mil today. So I think generally people have been very gracious,
you know, in acknowledging what I've done, and I'm gracious
in return. I think it's easy to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
So Graham, you David mentioned you guys haven't played together
here in thirty years?

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
Is that right? We know, Well, it's it's I'm the
early let me start he againning. Yeah. When we first
came to America in the like in the sort of
mid mid seventies, it was the original band, the original
four of us. When we were last there as in
seventy eight, it was the mark To band. This was

(01:00:40):
after Kevin Godlein Low whom have left the band. This band,
I'm the only original member, but two of the boys
in the band have been touring with the band since
one since nineteen seventy three and one since nineteen seventy six.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Yeah, Graham, I saw you at the Palladium in New
York in nineteen the last show on the Bloody Tourist tour,
and it was great and amazing. Even though the other
you know, uh, Eric is not in the Grand Goblin
Crime or not, I will say I do remember watching
is it Paul Burgess right? And yeah, Rick fenn Rick

(01:01:13):
there and they're on this tour right now in America.
And by the way, a Goblin Creme work on the
band show I saw in nineteen seventy nine are at
the Pladium orherever whenever it was and uh and it
was a great show. And my favorite song, which we
haven't talked about, which we should get in, is I'm
Fascinated with Dreadlock Holiday, which you sing and and and

(01:01:35):
because it's actually like I grew up as a kid
going to the Islands with my parents, and I always
heard the song as being like a very interesting and
early song about cultural appropriation, about well about bloody tourist
who go over and act like they belong somewhere.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Yeah. Right, that's what the song is about. That's exactly
what it is. It's it's a it's a white guy
trying to emulate you know, West Indian cool, really really
making a complete hash of it. And the story, I
mean some of the some of the lyrics are based
on fact, and other parts of the lyrics are our fiction.

Speaker 5 (01:02:32):
Respect.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
But the main thing about it was that was the
title and talk about having your radar up. I was
talking to this guy. I was in Jamaica talking to
a Jamaican guy there, and we were talking about sports,
and I said, what about cricket? Do you like cricket?
And he said no. I said, I'm really surprised. He said,
I love it. I thought.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
One of the greatest lines of all time. And this
is something Shelley might not remember. You wrote a reggae
influence song. I really love Miley Cyrus. Do you remember?
So you've both clear yes, this song clear which we'll
hear a little.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Of that.

Speaker 5 (01:03:21):
Six A yem.

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
And I'm wide away because I can't stop thinking about
the stuff you will say, enemy and died.

Speaker 5 (01:03:29):
I can't let his slide.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
The paper's not here at but I'm not afraid to
tell you what I feel.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
You're here with two great reggae songwriters, one from Long
Island and one from Yeah great Reggaey, that's gonna be
the subhead of this episode.

Speaker 6 (01:03:52):
Uh uh?

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
And can I if I promise to go in l A,
will you definitely do Dreadlock Holiday? Yes, yes, my favorite
reggae vocalist.

Speaker 6 (01:04:05):
I'm just making sure I'm still on your list right
for the show. Okay, thank you?

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
And you want people to show.

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
To show La La Yeah, yes, yes you are. I've
got it written.

Speaker 6 (01:04:18):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Everyone go to the website and you'll see, uh where
ten CC is touring this summer.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Yeah, yeah, yes, and don't miss it because the next
one will be another thirty years.

Speaker 6 (01:04:30):
No no, And listen to you and everybody should listen
to your new music because honestly, it's so smart, you know,
it's it's so wonderful. And I think as songwriters get
older sometimes they lose their edge, or they they're not writing,
you know, they're trying to do something that they used

(01:04:51):
to do, or they're not I mean, I think your
stuff is just really entertaining and beautifully written. The inspiration
is still there. I listened to you after we met,
you know, I listened to the whole album on the
way home, the last one, not the one.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
I have, not the new one, which yeah, yeah, there's
a track which everyone will put in the episode. Now
there's a track with Brian May of Queen, which happened
to be maybe the other great act of that era,
of the era that Tennessee c was around doing adventurous,
mind blowing stuff. But yes, uh, and can you tell

(01:05:30):
us how did you and Brian May end up doing
a song together?

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
Because it's pretty I wrote a song that was inspired
by the James Webspace telescope. Uh, and I wrote this.
I'll give you a brief brief the brief story. I
wrote the song because I started following the telescopes progress
on the NASA website and wrote the song, wrote a

(01:05:55):
song about it from being the telescope's point of view,
like I am the telescope. And I played it to
Andrew at my record company because I'd almost finished the record,
but I hadn't done a solo. There was a bit
of a solo, but not really complete anyway, he said,
you should ask Brian May to play on the record
because he played great guitar in the solo. But he's

(01:06:16):
also an astronomer and an astrophysicist, so it kind of
made sense. Anyway. I thought, wow, it's a brilliant idea.
So I sent the song to Brian. He came back
to me pretty much right away said I love the song.
So he plays lead guitar in it. He does backing
vocals on it. It was very, very involved in the
in the whole production. It was a joy to work
with him. In league sound travel seems so sot, I'm farting,

(01:06:49):
so I will send you singers from and he's on.
So that song opens my new album. And also I
went to somebody called the Starmer's Festival in Armenia two
or three years ago as his guest because he wanted

(01:07:13):
to perform Flirting in Heaven with me. And he said,
while you're here, can we do for your love and
Heartful of Soul.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
With Brian May. That's pretty a good company to do.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
I thought about that for a second. Simon Phillips, who
was the greatest drummer Do you know Simon?

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yes, umma?

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
He had he had the band that was sort of
like the house band, and so Simon's playing on it
and actually mixed the this version of Heartful of Soul
that we performed there, and that's the last track on
the album as well. So Brand's on the album twice.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Well, Shelley. And by the way, we'll wrap up. Shelley
has a book if you want to know more about
Shelley's career, a Grammy nominated book about songwriting called Confessions
of a Serial Songwriter. Who wrote the forward for that book.

Speaker 6 (01:08:03):
Let me think it might have been some guy named
David Wilde.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
How did you get him? They charge? But that's I
recommend everyone by that book. You can also hear Shelley's music,
her albums. There's so we'll have to have you back,
maybe with your husband and discuss all of that. But Graham,
we know your time is limited. You're about to head
I don't know you. Are you still in England and
about to head to the States the moment.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Yeah, we've got to cant get Belgium tomorrow and then
we're head out to the States on Tuesday.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Lovely to meet you. Great to meet you, Graham, to
see you, Shelly, and she'll give you back the guitaristrap
soon I've got it back all right, thank you, it's
an honors or.

Speaker 8 (01:08:48):
Naked Lunch is a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and David Wilde.
Theme song and music by Brad Paisley, Produced by Will Sterling.
Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal, David Wilde, and our consulting
journalist is Pamela Challenge. If you enjoyed the show, share
it with a friend. But if you can't take my
word for it, take Phil's and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Don't forget to leave a good rating and review.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
We like five stars.

Speaker 8 (01:09:08):
You know, thanks for listening to Naked Lunch, a Lucky
Bastard's production.