Adam Duritz of Counting Crows

Round Here at "Naked Lunch," Phil & David fall Accidentally In Love with Adam Duritz, the leader of Counting Crows, during a fun, fascinating and far-ranging conversation. They discuss food and fame, how Adam and David first met for a "Rolling Stone" cover story just as the band's career was taking off, the group's latest tasty album, "Butter Miracle: The Complete Sweets!," Amy Scott's new documentary about the band, "Counting Crows: Have You Seen Me Lately?" in which David appears, and so much more. To learn more about building community through food and "Somebody Feed the People," visit the Philanthropy page at philrosenthalworld.com. 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey David, Hello Phil, Hello, Hello, mister Jones.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Who's our guest today?

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Our guest today. I'm completely thrilled about because it's someone
who I love and we'll find out if he loves
me back still, but he's someone really important in my life,
in my family's life. A band that, like my kids,
didn't have the Beatles, like you know, we sort of
grew up in the wake of the Beatles. But in
my household and the wild household, the Counting Crows were

(00:28):
sort of our Beatles, and they were our family band, so.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
It was wild in that household. Yes, we well, I'm
thrilled to meet this young man.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Yes, and he'll be thrilled to be called a young man.
He Let's meet Adam Durwitz.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Let's build the beans to the fat, food for thought,
jokes on tap, talking with our mouthsful, having fun, cake,
humble pie, serving up slass lovely. The dressing all the sude.
It's naked lunch.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
Clothing optional.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
You see me, easy, I see, I'm seeing me.

Speaker 5 (01:25):
Some ray started shame somewhere in Mascot started to sell it.

Speaker 4 (01:37):
Hello, there you too, How are you Adam?

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Oh my god, it's tough. Hello, I don't know if
it's good for you to see me, but I am
so thrilled to see you.

Speaker 4 (01:48):
I've seen you many times. It's it's always good.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well, I want you to introduce you to Phil Rosenthal,
who I don't think you've ever met, and I want
to say that it's and I.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Long time lest her first time call.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
I have this strange feeling because we go back to
such an interesting moment in both of our lives. And
I had a feeling back then which I probably never expressed,
which is You've always felt sort of like a family
member to me. In fact, in my household, I was
explaining to Phil before we before you joined us that

(02:23):
like we didn't have the Beatles like you were the
count of Count of Crows were the house band of
the Wild family. And I have a picture we raised
we read my wife, here's the story. Yes, this is
how I want to go back to how we met. Uh,
my wife the only artist she ever turned me onto

(02:43):
in our entire marriage. We've been married thirty one years
this year. Is she fell in love with you first?
And then when Rolling Stone assigned me to fly to
Paris rough band Wow and interview this new exploding hot band.
I liked the band. I had seen you guys at
the Rock and Roll of Fame at a night we

(03:04):
can talk about. But I got on the plane and
my wife goes, David, this is the best record ever.
And I remember on the flight, I think it might
have been overnight to Paris. I fell in love with
the record and just became obsessed. And from that time
on you've been so important in our household. So thank
you for making keeping my family together.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Do you remember David chasing you around the museum in Paris?

Speaker 4 (03:28):
Oh? Yeah, absolutely, I remember exactly what the kids asked
us right outside the front door. Well, he said to me,
is mister Jones about your dick, And I'll have to
think there's no way that doesn't get in there.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Oh no, Sometimes God gives you the lead of your article.
And I have a theory, Adam about that which is
in my head. I'm trying to think why you are
one of my favorite songwriters of all time. And in
a weird way, this new record, which I love, but
O Miracle, the Complete sweets it made me think about
all of this because to me, it's in part a

(04:05):
record about the concept of a rock star and about
uh and and and in a weird way, I always
feel like it's the Jewish Ziggy starred Us. It's if
Ziggy star Uh start us then or something like that.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
And I have to say, Ziggy start Us does sound
a little Jewish, it.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Does right off the bat. Uh, And I always uh,
I yes, well to me? And it maybe goes back
to that flight to Paris listening to rain King over
and over, which is one of my favorite songs ever written.
I really feel like one thing that's great about Adam
is he is a in my head, a great Jewish writer,

(04:41):
like I think of you like Bellow, like Philip Roth,
like as a lyricist. It's so smart, it's so self
consciously funny and smart, and.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
So many complaints exacts and we all we fuck up
right about our fuck ups more than other.

Speaker 4 (04:59):
People's fuck ups exactly.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
Uh that when you think back to that moment in Paris,
uh does it is?

Speaker 4 (05:07):
That is?

Speaker 1 (05:07):
It's a big moment in my head, but it was
it a big moment for you because and just to
follow that through the end of that day, I think
we went back to the hotel and that's when we
were in the lobby when the word hit the world
that Kurt Cobain had passed away, and I remember still
going up to my room because you were in shock
because you knew Kurt. I was just a fan, really,

(05:31):
but I remember going upstairs and MTV in Europe was
showing a Phil Collins Weekend and thinking, this the world
has changed. This was this was an important, you know day.
I don't know, I'm sure emotionally it was a bigger
day for you.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
Well. I was really nervous and like uncomfortable with being
on the with doing the cover story for her own Stone,
Like I think they called me about it, or they
called our manager. I got the news about Rolling Stone
wanting to do it at the Letterman Show. We were
about to play our second television show ever, you know,

(06:09):
and it just felt like a lot, you know, like
things had changed a lot. Was we were about to
play our second television show and then we were going
to leave to go to Europe on our first European tour.
And you know, it's hard to describe it to people nowadays,
but to be on the cover of Rolling Stone back
then was to be like I'm the present. Yeah, I
was very shy and really, you know, not comfortable with

(06:34):
people and I was very anxious about what, you know.
When my managers told me about the cover Rolling Stone,
I think I asked if I could think about it,
you know, like for a second, because even though I mean,
you can't turn that down, of course, it's your future.
But I think I was really aware of how hard
it was going to be for me to be on

(06:55):
all those news stands and have my face on all
those covers, and like, I was already struggling a bit
with fame that hadn't really hit yet, and I was
very nervous about it. And the weird thing is, I,
you know, we got on that European tour, which was
pretty stressful and like and exciting and great, you know.
And we got to Paris and I met Uh, I

(07:17):
met you guys, and uh I started to get like
more comfortable with the idea we'd been walking around for
a day, I think. And and then right as I
started to sort of come around on being okay, we
found out that Kurt had died, you know, And that

(07:38):
really freaked me out because I, you know, we were
signed by the same guy, we were label mates. He
was a nice guy. I saw myself as very parallel
to him. In a lot of ways that I knew
about but other people didn't know about, you know, Like
I had a lot of problems with mental illness, and
I hadn't you know, nobody knew about that, and I
wasn't going to talk about it with anybody. But you know,

(07:59):
I already because of the mental littleness, I had already
finished with all the drugs, like by twenty one or
twenty two. So I didn't have that problem, you know,
but I had a lot of issues that nobody knew about.
And I saw her as someone who was in the
same shoes as me, in a few years ahead of me,
and so it was very sobering to hear he killed himself,

(08:21):
you know, especially like to hear that as you're entering
into this, like you're touring for the first time overseas,
which is a big thing, and you're talking to Rolling
Stone in order to be on the cover. You know,
it was just kind of nerve wracking right at that moment,
it was It was pretty uh you know, it's funny,

(08:43):
like I you know, they they made us redo the cover,
you know, and I remember I wondered why at the time,
but you know, years later, when we I think when
we were making the deluxe set of August, we got
Rolling Stone to send us all the pictures to look
at them, and I saw all of mark shots from Paris,
and like, as soon as I saw them, I was like, oh, yeah,
I get it. We looked like a bunch of donkeys.

(09:06):
Like everyone's e or like it's just like I'm like terrified, MOPy, scared.
It's fucking pouring rain. I'm trying to keep my voice together.
I know I'm getting sick because I'm getting soaked everywhere
we go. Our drummer, Steve, went to do laundry and
pissed some taxi driver off enough they drove him to Marseilles. Practically, Oh,
it's like three hours late for the photo shoot. Like

(09:28):
we all just look like like we just looked like
a bunch of fucking donkeys. That's the only way you
think of describe it. Like as soon as I saw those,
which is like ten years later, I was like, oh,
I see, I know exactly why they didn't use these
fucking things.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
And how were you How did you feel about David's writing?

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Oh, oh, well, I don't think i'd read any of
it yet at that point.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Oh, I mean after you saw the piece come out,
were you happy with how he treated you?

Speaker 4 (09:54):
Yeah, I mean the the there is editing too, right, Yeah,
I mean you have to take an account editors. The
headline for the piece was the biggest new band in America,
which is a big different from the best new band
in America or something like that. You know, it was
a real statement about fame and like popularity. There were

(10:17):
those two things in the story. One was the Dick
line and my sister. You know, David interviewed with my
family for it, and my sister called me after it
and she goes, oh, I had this great talk with
David Wilde. He was so nice, he was funny. I
told him about all of your ABBA records when you
were a kid, and I was like, oh, you idiot.

(10:38):
I'm like, I'm like, that's ending up in the piece,
And she said no, no, it was just one thing.
I'm like, you don't understand you won't you will after
this Like a line in the piece where it says
when talking about his childhood, his childhood influences Durret's remembers
growing up in Oakland with p Funk and earth Wind
and Fire. His sister remembers his ABA records.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
But by the way, I meant that with no malice.
I love a but and I think time has proven
me to be correct.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
No, I don't have anything against Abby either, but the
contrast of those two statements was just and I just
like knew it. I was like, you know, it's like,
this is why you can't let your family get involved
these things. They just don't know. They think all the
cutest stories are the best stories, and then they end
up of course in Rolling Stone.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
It just goes to your well roundedness, that's all.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
Yeah, yeah, you were open to another piece was good.
You know, I think I was just more freaked out
about the piece than anything else.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Well can I can? I I didn't go back to
reread the prison piece. I just phil just read it. Yes,
I did want to make myself the.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
GQ piece, which I recommend to people too as a
kind of catch up with you. Now.

Speaker 4 (11:45):
Oh yeah Gras's piece. That's a nice piece too, Yeah, yes,
very nice.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
But the thing I do want to apologize is something
that I think for many years I was insensitive to,
which is like, because we would talk at other times,
you were so kind when we brought our kids when
they were old enough to come see you. But like
I will say, one thing that has changed, probably much
for the positive, is like I because you were and

(12:09):
are such a warm, funny, smart guy, I did not
take mental health that seriously. It's like you seemed way
too much of a ment to be, you know, having troubles.
And I think I remember it was many years later
when you made another amazing record, you know, uh uh,

(12:32):
like many years later we did like a song for song,
and I remember talking about Washington Square around the time you.
I guess in my head that's like when you part
of like a reflection of you moving west and going
back finding a home in New York. But I just
remember it was not until that record, all those years later,
where I went, oh, yeah, you were grappling. I was,

(12:54):
you know, like other stupid pop culture observers, because you
were having this making great music and having a good
social life. I didn't get that you were dealing with
a lot of shit. And I want to apologize for that.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
Oh that's not your fault. I mean nobody did. I
very purposefully hit all that. I mean I was very
like aware of how the public and pop culture and
by which not meaning you, but like treated mental illness,

(13:30):
which is it's a joke, especially and they they're vicious
about it. And I was very careful not to ever
talk about it until we made Saturday Nights and Sunday Mornings,
which is when Rossvin Square was released, because I felt
like I was slowly circling the drain for many years,
and I didn't want to talk about it publicly until

(13:51):
I at least felt like I had stopped, you know,
going down and you know, got somewhat of a handle
on it, because I didn't want to be like a
public joke, you know. I remember there I talked. I
think I told this to Grayson the story. There was
one point where I had to check myself into the
hospital at UCLA for a little while, and I was

(14:13):
checking in right when Mariah Carey was checking out, and
all the papers did for the next few days was
rip her to shreds and make make light of it.
You know. So you know, I'd always been and which
is not was not a surprise to me. That's what
I was sure would happen if I ever talked about
it at a time when I was still not in
control of it at all, you know, So I very

(14:36):
purposefully hid that from everyone, you know. I do think
for years we suffered because I was writing these songs
that were very down, and yet people were seeing me
being like a rock star dating some famous women, and
they would be like, he's fucking her, fuck him for writing?
Why is he writing sad songs? What an asshole? You know?
And I think that would have been different had I
been more honest about it. But but I also didn't

(14:56):
feel like it was anybody's business until I felt like
it was. I felt like I was comfortable, So that's
not your fault at all. I was really hesitant to
ever talk about it with any very I.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
Feel thank you for telling me that, because I've always
I'll tell you, I've always felt bad about that. I
felt this weird parallel life thing because I don't know
if you even know this, but like I wrote two
Friends books, I was around that world and saw all
that exploding. And I never was mad at you about
having a better social life because I was married, you know,
and still married. So I feel good about all that.

(15:30):
I do remember. The one time I gave you shit
was when This Desert Life was coming out. I went
in the studio and you played me, which and I
will put it in this episode of thirty seconds of
whatever we can use. There's a song called Missus Potter's
Lullaby that I think is one of the three or
four greatest songs ever written. And but at the end
of it, I realized it might be about another very

(15:51):
attractive actress in some way that you had a crush.
And I think I said, this is my favorite song
of all time and fuck you, because at that point
I'd probably been married like five years, and I was like, okay,
I really uh it was my one moment where I
allowed myself a little jealousy.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
No, I don't know, you probably not.

Speaker 4 (16:12):
What do you see?

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (16:18):
But I sure lacked fun out.

Speaker 5 (16:20):
So while don't you come down on that stream?

Speaker 4 (16:28):
Hey, Missus Potter, don't turn Missus Potter. I will say
it made quite the impression on Monica Potter at the
time too. Ah yeah, who was in that song at Lormano?

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Very good?

Speaker 1 (16:47):
You know I'm phil Now that I've done my therapy,
you you please speak well.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm wondering if you have the artist's dilemma, which is
if you have personal problems, if that actually does it
help or hinder the art?

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Do you feel.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
I mean I think your life is fodder for writing, right,
and also just your thoughts and your feelings. So I
don't know that it does either. I think you know,
the things you go through give you stuff to write about,
but too much makes it impossible to write. For me,
you know, too much trauma at any given time, and

(17:26):
you just like I've found it overwhelmed. There were sometimes
I found it overwhelming, And.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
So you've had those days where this is.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
I mean the building. You know, happiness can be great
to write too as well, you know, like you get
excited about things. Yes, I mean it's just feeling. You
gotta have a lot of feeling to write. You need,
you need a well of stuff.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yes, sensitivity sensitivity cuts both ways.

Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah, And I think they're all really good for writing.
Like I've found, like I get really excited, like when
we go in the studio and I'm generally in a
pretty good place just because the making music is thrilling.
So like I mean these records, this record, I had
it all written before we went in, but many of
our records I wrote half the record in the studio.
I mean, like kid, I mean on this Desert Life,

(18:13):
I wrote missus Potter's Lullaby, Amy Hit the Atmosphere, color
Blind Baby, I'm a Big Star Now, which is in Rounders, Kid, Things,
four Days. Those were all written while we're in the studio.
And there's a bunch off Hard Candies about half written
in the studio too.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
So why did you pre write this one?

Speaker 4 (18:34):
It just happened that way, huh. You know. And also
because I wrote it in two different chunks and we
recorded in two chunks. It wasn't like I you know,
I wrote about four songs, we made a suite. I
wrote five more we made the other half. It wasn't
like I was in there for a long time. We
also used to be in the studio for like months
at a time because we'd rent these houses. Yeah, we

(18:55):
would like move in so we could be there for months.
So there's plenty of time to write more off whereas
we made this record, It's funny, it's the longest on
the time it took because of the pandemic and other stuff.
But as far as studio times, Sweet was like twelve days.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
And oh so they love you because you saved the money.
What you say they love you because you saved them money?

Speaker 4 (19:18):
Yeah, I mean it was fast this time we ripped
through it. I'm like, it's maybe twenty twenty two or
three days for the whole thing.

Speaker 5 (19:34):
Doesn't anybody you want to be your rock and Rold
Queen stress yourself up in in a domentiara swish it
a little recking.

Speaker 6 (19:43):
Man on to make him the same.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
I'm gonna pay killer. I'm a shot a pillow.

Speaker 5 (19:49):
You sha'n't breaking man breaking around, not about a five
pound on a out of sound.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
Turn it in a motherfucking rocket.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Well, I got to tell you, as much as I
love the initial suite, I do, I feel like the
making it a whole album, it really makes it one
of my favorite things you've ever done. Like I think
it's I think the new songs uh Spacemen in Tulsa
under the Aurora, those are I think some of the

(20:22):
greatest things you've ever done in my top ten of
all time. And there's a little glitter rock through this
album to me that I and I feel like, I
think about these guys who are actually a lot of
them actually straight, wearing platform shoes and glitter outfits and
like getting laid and somehow all of that is in
this record. For me, it may just be pure projection.

Speaker 4 (20:45):
No, I think I was really channeling some of the
glam stuff. I'm always I've always loved Mott Bowie, you know,
the dolls in the music for some of these songs.
And also, you know, my whole life's been spent in

(21:08):
music from when I was a kid, you know, and
first being an obsessive fan and then being someone who
makes it. And you know, you can see that in
Bobby and the Rakings. It's really it's a song about
a guy in a band and what his life is like. No,
I'm sorry in a elevator, Boots and Bobby is like
looking at it from the other perspective of a fan
for whom the band is the thing that marks all

(21:28):
the moments in his life. And then Spaceman is also
kind of about the sort of people that end up
being rock stars or any kind of art artist. You
know that a lot of people who are artistic people
grow up feeling weird and isolated and different from everyone
around them, and often that can be traumatic. Sometimes it's

(21:49):
just uncomfortable and you don't know if there's going to
be a place for you in the world. And then
you find that in art you have the freedom to
be yourself that actually there's this world where you change
from being this outsider to being like an idol in
a way, you know, like and you know, whether it's
because you're a gay kid or someone who deals with
some other kind of charm in their childhood, or just
being an artist, you know that, Like for me at least,

(22:10):
rock and roll was a way out of all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
And one of the things people should know about you
is like Elvis Costello, who we recently did a two
podcasts with T Bone and Elvis together, which was I
got to point out to Elvis I introduced him to
his wife, which was good. I grabbed some credit there.
But also Elvis was one of someone who I think of.
You and Elvis are two of the rock stars in

(22:33):
my life who have always reached out to support other songs.
Like once you made it, you were always saying you
should check out this band. You've always and with your
Outlaw tours, you've always made an effort to do that.
Elvis does that, which I guess. Phil is very close
with T Bone, who I know you know pretty well.
I think we were both wondering it seems like you

(22:54):
have a complex relationship with obviously that album, and but
it what you know, what in your life, Phil, you
know as his friend, What do you think of t
Bone's contribution to your career?

Speaker 4 (23:11):
Well, I don't think we have one without him, I
mean he My biggest fear when we got signed was
that we'd only been a band for a little while.
I we didn't know what we were or how to
be a band. Really. We sounded a lot like late
model roxy music, something that I felt was like very
going to be very dated very quickly. And also I

(23:34):
just didn't feel like it was it didn't serve the
songs as well. We were a bunch of guys who
had a bunch of influences that sort of affected the
way they played, and we brought all those influences in
without like listening to the songs really and we were
just like Dave was a guy who was very influenced
by Stone Roses and he played a lot of delayed

(23:57):
guitar like Edge or like is his name John Squire,
this spar player, you know, Matt came from this prog
rock thing and he had these Steinberger fretless basses, you know.
Like Steve was like a funk drummer who was very
like Stuart Copelandy. You know, we had all this stuff
and we were bringing that stuff to put on everything

(24:17):
before we really interpreted anything. And I felt like we
needed to learn to be a band. I had no
idea what we should sound like, but I felt like
we were putting the sound before the songs because we didn't.
We'd barely been a band for a couple of months,
you know, and I was very concerned that we didn't
know how to be a great band yet. And U

(24:39):
and Tebowe and I had a lot of talks about that,
and we decided that the most important thing was to
learn to listen to each other, you know. So we
stripped everything out. We took all of Dave's effects away.
We said, no effects on any of the guitars until
maybe we'll put him on in post. We made Mac
get rid of the fretless bassis and get an old
Hoffner in a vox. Steve the drum kit got kit
cut down, Charlie just played p and organ, no synthesizer

(25:02):
on the first album, really ellensim accordion, and we really
stood around in a circle trying to figure out how
to be a band and listen to each other and
like it wasn't an attempt to be retro or anything,
although I think it came off that way because you
know it because as soon as we could, we turned
the guitars way up and made like recovering satellites, you know.

(25:23):
But at first, I just wanted us to learn to
listen to each other and learn to be a real band,
you know, and t Boon really helped us through that. Like,
I think he's very good. You know, a lot of
producers have this sort of very quantifiable thing where they
have a sound. Even Lily White, as brilliant as he
is now, in the early parts of his career, he

(25:43):
just made everybody sound like you too, that big drum sound,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Like he's even Marshall Crenshaw sounded like you too.

Speaker 4 (25:51):
I still used to tease him about that all the time.
He ruined Marshall Crenshaw. You know, field Day is a
terrible sounding record because it's all wrong for him and
coming off that first album that so, you know what
I mean. But T Bone like he has this unquantifiable
thing where he'll help you learn to be you in
a lot of ways, you know. And I think that uh,
you know, that can be really great. It was a

(26:12):
huge help for us. It was a big thing for
the wallflowers, clearly for the bodines, you know, for Los Lobos.
But I also think that, like for me, for many
I was never anyone who wanted to, like, go, well,
that was really successful, Let's do it again, you know
what I mean. I always wanted to find the next
new thing, like and I think everyone, including probably to

(26:35):
a certain extent, t Bone, expected us to go back
and make another record with t Bone. And I think
it probably hurt his feelings somewhat that we didn't, you know,
and that I like never even really considered it, you know,
Like I I felt bad about that because I think
that there's a reason and it would have been. It's
totally justifiable to have expected that in some ways, and

(26:57):
I think it made things awkward when we didn't. But
I was look into something different, you know. I wanted
to make you know, I don't know, I wanted to
work with Gil Norton. I really wanted to make like
other sounds that I really felt like we could, and
I wanted to learn new things. It wasn't until god,
the last ten years that I really ever wanted to
work with anyone again really, you know, although we did
work with Gil on Saturday nights and we've worked with

(27:19):
Brian Deck mostly since then. But yeah, you know, I
think t Bone's an incredible producer.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
You talked to him at all, You talked to him
pretty regularly a bit.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
But but listen, you're both still alive and still able
to do what you do. It might be nice to
revisit that relationship. But your description of starting out and
listening to each other that it's so relatable to me.
Even though I don't do what you do. I make
TV shows. It's the exact same. When you're starting a

(27:51):
TV show, you don't know what the show's gonna be.
You have to find it where the show really lives,
just like a band.

Speaker 4 (28:01):
It's a very interesting, weird It's a thing that I
don't think people often take into account with music. They
really are often more looking for a sound, something that
everyone can grab onto because you're trying to be a
part of a scene or you're trying to like fit
in in some way that's easily comprehensible to everybody. Yeah,
and I think that it helped us in the beginning

(28:24):
because I think We were so unique right then, and
it may have hurt us later because we were never
really right for any radio format, you know. But yeah,
we've never been quantifiable that way as much. You know,
I think we we didn't make it comfortable for our
fans to know what our sound should be from record
to record.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Well, to me, the mandolin kind of popped through for
me that that sound. Not a lot of people had
that at the time, did they.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
No, No, it wasn't until years. I mean you get
Mumford and Sons and bands like that a lot later.
We were really interested in that right away, so interested
in big loud guitars, you know, like Angels of the
Silences and Catapult. You know, we we were like, to me,
the weird thinking about count People ask me what our
sound is and I'm like, well, counting Crows sounds like
exactly whatever we want it to sound like. Yes, we

(29:12):
make a song, it's a counting Crow song. They just
don't all sound the same.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, I always say we're an amalgam of all our influences,
especially when we're starting out where everybody where everything that's
influenced us, and then one day you taste the soup
and it's you.

Speaker 4 (29:29):
Yeah. I mean I think that's the biggest struggle as
a young artist. You know, there's a lot of songs
that were on that demo that got us signed that
I never that people liked and they wondered why I
never even considered them for the record, and it's because
they were me aping Peter Gabriel or aping something else.
They were songs that sounded like good rock songs, but
they weren't actually great songs to me. The ones that

(29:51):
made it on the record are the ones that were
like real original songs, like rain King.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
You know right, well, rain King is funny because I
played I don't think phill It ever heard the version?
Uh where you weave in?

Speaker 4 (30:03):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Is it thunder Road?

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah? By the way, that's one of the best covers
ever of anything. I think it's fantastic. And talk about
making something yours. I don't want to sound like an
American idol judge, but you made that song yours in
a way that it's not. You're not just covering that song.
You've reinterpreted the song. Can we play a little big straight.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
Loss baby?

Speaker 3 (30:43):
But we are?

Speaker 7 (30:46):
Because did you did you record that on a record
other than the live thing that I heard. I don't
think so was that something that just uh popped up
one day?

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Hey, let's weave that into the other song.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
You know, it's one of those songs where like you
kind of know the lyrics even if you don't think
you do.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Oh yeah, that's the only song I know by heart.

Speaker 4 (31:12):
Yeah, I mean, even if you've never tried to cover it,
you probably know it. It's such a journey straight through it,
and I think, but it's harder when you're not singing
it to that music. And I think one day we
were just playing it and I just started screen door
slams marriage and I got like a verse and a
half into it or something, and then I ran out
of like I lost my place. And then with the

(31:32):
song and first so for a few nights there, I
kept getting further and further into it, and I one
time I finally got all the way through the whole song,
figured out a way to end it and get back
to ranking. Yeah, And so we did it every once
in a while, but it was completely off the top
of my head, like where I was just trying to
figure out a way through it.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
But it's a brilliant reinterpretation. I think it totally works.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
And you've talked about how Springsteen has always been very
nice to you, but you are nervous and you don't
assume that the friendship you've had the exact same experience
Phil has had with him. I've added to a lesser
extent where it's like Phil is always am I wrong?

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Maybe he makes me nervous?

Speaker 4 (32:13):
I mean he's the best guy, he really is.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
And how about now are you in love with all
this stuff that he's doing. He's so brave and great
and doesn't care and just elder statesman now just great.

Speaker 4 (32:23):
But he's always been that way, yes, but just like Dolls, Yeah, yeah,
he's he's the ship man. He's just always has been.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I mean he could face at the very least attacks audit.

Speaker 4 (32:38):
Yeah. I mean, you know, I was talking to Brian
Fallon the other day, you know from the Gap from
Gaslight Anthem.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Who he's another band. Bruce has always been very nice
and supportive of and they're good friends.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
You know, they live right near each other and everything,
and and Brian said he asked him when he's like,
you know, uh, is it okay to text you? Or
something like? Can I call you? Like, you know, are
we I don't know, you know, he didn't want to,
you know, take a step, you know, yeah, and assume something.
And he said, Bruce said, and it was so real.

(33:14):
He said, you know, it's not just that I like you, Brian,
I like your company.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Oh And I thought, boy, that just.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
Sounds like that's just like the real thing right there.
And it sounds just like Bruce. It's like somehow, like
in a way that I don't get, and not that
I don't get how he does it, but in a
way that I'm not capable of. He always knows how
to get to the heart of everything, the real heart.
Like that's the thing. It's not just that I like you.

(33:44):
I enjoy your company, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
That's like that's something you'd never forget if he said
to you.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
And and it cuts through all of it, like it's
not just no text me any time, which I might say, right,
and I would mean just the good thing. But that's
the thing about Bruce. He's why he's the best writer,
you know, maybe ever in rock and roll in a
lot of role.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
I love that you said that.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
That's great. He just gets to the real heart of
everything in a way that few other people. Do you
know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (34:14):
What has he said to you that stuck with you?

Speaker 4 (34:19):
Hey, me too, me too. That's about it. That's enough.
It's enough. I don't know that I remember any of it.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Was just sitting there, going He's talking to me.

Speaker 4 (34:31):
My fucking poor mind just goes right, just breezes, and uh,
that's terrible. He's always the nicest guy in the world.
It's been true since before I was anything, you know,
Like I used to see him taking my god son
to school when Evan was a kid, you know, a
little kid, you know, he just there. I knew him
because we played the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,

(34:51):
you know, and he was there, and yeah, well.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Let's talk about that day because it's another pretty good
writer named Robbie Robertson apparently was one who Cluden's yan
or whoever at the rock call that like Van Morrison
wasn't going to show up right, and that day it
was one of the only rock and roll Hall of
Fames at that point, maybe the first in LA. I
remember being there and it was so much shit was

(35:15):
going on because Eddie Vedder was singing with the Doors,
if I remember correctly, Fogerty was getting in the credence,
was getting inducted, but wasn't going to play with the
other guys. Phil Spector was out there in the hall,
and I remember talking to you about Bruce should not
be playing with Fogerty or something. You know, I was.
But in the middle of all that, someone has to
fill in for Van and it's you, and.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
You didn't even your first record hadn't come out yet.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
Now I think we're still the only unknown band ever
to play at that thing.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Amazing.

Speaker 4 (35:43):
But the weird thing about it is, I do all
these interviews and people talk about, you know, how we
were going to be famous from the beginning and all
the things that blew us up at the beginning, and
they talk about Saturday Night Live and the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame. And the thing about the Hall
of Fame thing is that no one knew about that.
That was not public. That was very private affair back then.
They didn't publicize that at all, So nobody knew we

(36:08):
even played at it except for the people who were there. Really,
that didn't become a big deal until, like it's almost
retroactively been rewritten as this part of history where we
did this thing and everyone was talking about us after that.
But it wasn't only people that knew about it were
industry people like the public, but they talked about it somewhat,
but it wasn't really written about a ton, you know what.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
There was so much else going on that night. Adam
is right. In fact, my favorite story about that night
and I was there, is one I didn't know until
later when you started doing interviews, because I did get
to know this woman who I worshiped in retrospect, Eda James.
Can you tell Phil the story of your memorable brush
with Eda James at night?

Speaker 4 (36:48):
Well, I was coming off, you know, we played We
went on there and played Caravan. I was wearing a
stupid hat. It's like mambo. It's called a mambo sock.
It's like a snowboarding hat. Yeah. And the first time
I throw my head back, you know, turn it up.
First time I hit the chorus, hack is flying off
the back of my head. But I caught it and

(37:11):
I put it back on. But not right. It's like sideways.
I spent the entire song with this hat migrating around
my head. I'm like so gone in the song that
I'm not really cognizant of what I'm doing. I don't
have enough sense to take the hat and throw it away,
but I have enough sense to kind of keep it
from falling off, So it just keeps moving around my head,

(37:34):
and I'm singing my ass off, you know, but I'm
a little distracted by this hat flying all over the place.
And we get to the end of the song, you know,
place cheers. We did really well. But I'm a little
like dazed, you know, cause I get really gone on stage,
especially back then, you know, and I'm having the time
of my life. I mean, this is like same baby,

(37:56):
more candy than you've ever seen, you know, Like I mean,
for me, like I'm playing at soundcheck that morning, at
the rehearsal the day before, in front of all of
the people, I've idolized my whole life. I mean, the
house bands, Don was on bass, Keldner on drums, Ben
Montenne and Roy Bitten on keyboards, Springsteen and Robbie on guitars.

(38:18):
You know, Fogerty's there playing with those guys. All the
members of Credence have come up to talk to me
one by one about the problems in the band. They've
been opening their hearts to me. George Clinton is there,
my hero from growing up in Oakland, George Clinton, is
there to ducks lie in the family stone Cream plays.
I'm the first kid in my generation to see cream.

(38:39):
They're fucking unreal. They're so good. It is just the
greatest fucking night. You know. I'm coming off stage in
this days and it's one of those big, deep stages
with multiple curtains down the sides, ye you know, like
like a Vegas stage almost, and it's pitch dark behind

(39:00):
the curtains. The lights are shining in your eyes, so
you're kind of blinded. But as soon as you get
to one of those curtains, it's pitch dark in those
alley ways between the curtains. And as I'm walking in
the dark off the stage, just as I get to
the dark, I trip over a cable or something and
I'm my hands are in my pockets. I think I'm
just falling. I'm I'm falling. I'm like, I'm gonna fucking
break my face. I've got no my hands are in

(39:23):
my pockets, I can't do anything about it. And all
of a sudden, I just stop in this vast soft
pillowy I don't know what, and I like I reach
my hands out and I find like the arm of
a chair, and then I don't know what it is,
a leg or something. I push up and I realize
that I've fallen right into Edda James breast like James,

(39:47):
basically into her lap, you know. And she's sitting in
a chair side stage Katie lying and standing beside the
chair because there next Katie's gonna induct Eda. And it
saved my life. Probably would have broken my face, but
I fell right into Edda James. And as my face
comes out of it, I'm so stunned. I'm looking up

(40:09):
at her and at Katie, and Edda says, are you
all right, honey? Oh my god, Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
And then she sings, I had land.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
She said, well you sang great.

Speaker 6 (40:25):
I was like, Ohm, sell me A fairy said, she's

(40:46):
looking out at you.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
She looking at me.

Speaker 7 (40:51):
Right light.

Speaker 4 (40:53):
Come through it, steo everybody you.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
By the way, I interviewed at a few times, and
she was unforgettably, not only like an R and B
queen forever one of the greatest of all time. She
was sassy would be putting an understatement.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
I mean, it was just I'll never forget just the
sense of what the fuck just happened? And then when
you push your face out of it and you're like,
that is not what I thought. You know that I
would never in a million years have guessed this was
what I was going to press up into.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
And now it's on your list of great places I've.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
Been, Yes, which which, by the way, having we did
get to you know, I think I'm trying to think
if i'd been to Paris. I think I'd been there
once or twice before. But Phil has his own you know,
somebody feed Phil Food and Travel show. Are you in
your international travels? Now? Are you? Because you the whole

(41:59):
time I knew you were never a big drinker or
a partier. Do you have certain restaurants and cities that
you I know you recorded a lot of this record,
your worked on it, created a lot of it in England.
Are there places you love to travel and restaurants you
seek out around the world? Or no? Because you you
grew up in Berkeley where Phil is just with Alice

(42:20):
Waters two days ago doing something with Thomas Keller, who
we had on the podcast recently, but Alice Water was
from your Berkeley days. Did you grow up with any
sense of cuisine.

Speaker 4 (42:32):
Oh yeah, I mean Alice is my hero. You know
Immer worked at Japanese Oh really, Denise, Uh, I mean
Alice is my hero. My first cookbook is The Chapanese Pasta,
Pizza and Calzone cook Excellent. I mean I I have
been cooking all my life, from when I was a kid. Uh.
And I think I was probably drinking a lot more
than you thought, just maybe not around you. But I've

(42:54):
always loved going out and getting wasted a dinner.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Where are we to talking to you from now?

Speaker 4 (43:01):
I live in New York. I'm home, okay?

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Which part the village?

Speaker 4 (43:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (43:06):
And what's your I'm going to be there in a
couple of weeks. What's your What's your go to restaurant
in New York right now?

Speaker 4 (43:11):
Emilio's Ballatto.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Oh, I love it.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
That's where we had our son's graduation from n YU party.

Speaker 4 (43:18):
I mean amelios Is. We used to go there every
Sunday for all. I haven't done it as much recently,
but that restaurant is fucking incredible. It is one of
the great one of the dishes that I one of
the best dishes I've ever eaten in the world, but
one of my favorite like foods. I think about the
tripe at Emelios Oh real, like you know, those kinds

(43:41):
of like awful. Those kinds of food were always immigrant foods,
you know, because they were cheaper. And so that's the
kind of food that it should be, the kind of
food that someone's grandmother would make, like my grandmother making
chopp liver when I was a kid. That I still about,
you know, the tripe. That the tripe has become a
fancy thing in a lot of ways, but it's at Emilio's.
It's the warm, perfect comfort food in their perfect tomato sauce.

(44:05):
It is fucking sublime. It is so goddamn good. It's
one of my favorite dishes anywhere in the world. That's
one of my favorite New York restaurants. I think it's
out of this world. Agree, I'm trying to think what else.
You know, There's a Santa Lucia in downtown Milan has
this perfect just pasta with tomato sauce that is so good.

(44:31):
It's just they make a little pizzas too, but the
it's kind of a business lunch place for I think
the record business, other businesses in Milan, but it's just
this perfect simplicity of spaghetti and tomato sauce that like,
I don't know anyone else who does it that well.
And then my friend Asteria Frontiscana up in. Of course

(44:57):
Massimo's place is Yes, that's uh incredible, incredible, best in
the world.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Yeah, you guys are touring soon, right, Yeah, so do
you leave time in your schedule to enjoy places like this?

Speaker 4 (45:12):
No, it's sometimes happens if we get to go to
a tour, start a tour early.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
But the one time, the first time I went to
Massimo's place, like I spent like we drove up there
with some friends and one time I just spent like
three or four days up there and just like hung
out with him when he was off work, and he
took me to like the tratoria his across the street

(45:36):
from the little heating factory his dad had owned, Yeah,
for lunch and they just made a million kinds of
pasta that were unreal. Oh. Yeah, Like, I love Massimo.
He's one of my favorite people. Just finding time problem
is touring. You don't really have time unless the accidentally
have time.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Make time.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
Italy a good place I build it in.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
You're not just I mean, certainly you have a day
off or too. You can't just do one right right.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
But day offs for me, I'm a monk. I can't
talk like I in order when I was young and
I struggle to lot keep my voice together. Yeah, I
stopped struggling when I stopped doing anything. So I don't
go out to dinner really on tour because uh, I
can't really talk at all. So I'm really careful nowadays,
but I still trying to do some stuff.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Well, I want to talk about your voice for a second,
because you are, in addition to one of my favorite writers,
one of my favorite vocalists, which is interesting because always
because I go back to like, uh, there's a track
which I think I've play almost everyone I know with
Nancy Griffith Griffin the it's a going back to India
and going back to Georgia, right, which I don't know

(46:43):
if that's meaningful in your life. I think it's you
as a background vocalist on that. And with our friend
Jacob Dylan, you know, with six Avenue Heartache. Those are
two times where I go like, you're not only one
of my favorite lead singers, you're one of my favorite
sort of harmony the background singers of all time.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
I think going Back to George is probably the best
guest vocal I ever did. It's just perfect to me,
like that song. She let me rewrite the song, so
I wrote all my verse parts myself, rewrote the lyrics
to the verse parts. Uh and and then you know,
I just I copped the the harmonies in the vocal

(47:22):
from what was on the demo, which I think was
sung by al Anderson. But Nancy was really nice. I
was really nervous about telling you. When I got to
Nashville to do those sessions with her, I was like
between gigs. I like literally flew on a red eye
to get there, did the stuff, went out drinking with
Nancy and she told me stories, and then I left
the next day to go back to wherever we were playing.

(47:44):
But uh, yeah, because the guitars on there are app
wow and played the like the electrics on there, and
he sang the original vocal. So she let me rewrite
the lyrics to the to the verses. And I was
really nervous, but when I told her I'd done it,
she was just excited. And I just felt like I
just sunk into that song and we just made this
perfect three minute thing.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Well, I want to We're gonna put a little bit
of that into this episode because I think it's one
of my favorite things. And when she passed, I just
found myself. I got to know her a little bit
and mutual friend of Lyle love it, you know, I
felt like I knew her even more and that is
one of I think that's my favorite things she ever did.
And you really had a little magic there.

Speaker 4 (48:24):
If you lovel if you're sung, has been your sh
If you are, won't you.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
Me with you?

Speaker 4 (48:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (48:52):
It just it just.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
It just felt like this perfect thing that we did.
I really loved it, and I hadn't I got to
know her back then, and I hadn't seen her in
a really long time. I went to see some shows
after that, my parents see her, but I hadn't seen
her in a really really long time when she passed.
I have a habit of doing that. I get off
on my own head and I like and so time
goes by and I haven't seen someone, and you know,

(49:15):
you get to this age where you don't have the
chances to see them. You know, happened with Alex Chilton too.
I hadn't seen Alex in a few years when he
passed away. Yeah, it's a trying to be better about that.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Well, the thing that's interesting is to me again, I've
always this is marking on a curve. You've never not
been a great singer, But I feel like vocally, these
new songs are the best you've sound. Like the new
songs aren't that could complete this as an album. I
think it's the best vocals. I think it's the best
you've sounded and looked like. It's almost like you've lost

(49:50):
some years, Like there was a period in between where
like like Pallisates Park was a big record, I think
for you, a big song, you know, a big song.
I literally grew up, I was raised around. My first
memory is Palisades Park, the literal place, So that was
a big record. But I think this new material, you
were just singing so great.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
And yeah, I feel like I got inside these ones
in a way that really Like I mean, I feel
like I'm getting better and better as a singer too.
I've lost some off the top of my range, but
my actual singing, like my ability to be in the
song is getting better and better. And like I just
felt like I was crushing it on this record.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Like it was.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
It was just easy and I was just I knew
what to do, I knew how these songs should be.
I was able to really dig in on them. I
think my vocals are really good on the suite too,
but like this, this other half of it, I just
felt like so in tune with the band too.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
It was just yeah about the band. There's there's this
documentary premiere a Tribeco. We don't have to talk about
it too much, but I'm in it, so that is
my I feel like I should mention. And one of
the things that I did find fascinating from my point
of view was you are such a compelling personality and
have such a unique role in your band that I

(51:13):
had not. I'd met a bunch of the guys, and
Charlie is sort of a friend through his wife and
all that, but I thought it was fascinating to hear
the other guys be very open and honest and very
sort of like it was a perspective that hasn't often
come through. I don't know if if it is annoying
to you, but it was very interesting to me.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
No, I think the best thing about that movie, and
I haven't seen the very finished product. But I think
the best thing about it is like the other people
in it in some ways, my friends talking about stuff,
and the band, like I really like appreciated that they
took the time to talk to all those people, you know,
Like I think the band like Ammer is really funny,

(51:55):
Charlie's really thoughtful, Dave's great. You know, they just all
had cool things to say. I mean, who else but
them has a right to have opinions on all that stuff,
you know, like they're so I do think they get
skipped over a lot, which is a shame because it's
just so dumb. Because the things I'm getting credit for
they're just skeletons. I mean, they're just like some words

(52:17):
and some chords. If you love my songs, it's because
of the work we did together, all of us, you know,
to turn those little skeletons into things that you really feel,
you know, Counting the count and Crow's song is this
thing that we all make together, you know, which is
why you know, Underwater Sunshine is really good too, even
though I didn't write any of it, you know what
I mean, because those guys are really.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Cool covers record. In fact, there's a question I want
to ask you based on that record, because you do
the greatest Faces song of all time, which asks a
question that at our age is you're I think you're
a little younger. Uh, but that question about wishing what
do you wish you knew?

Speaker 4 (52:56):
Then?

Speaker 1 (52:57):
You know, what do you wish you when you were
when you were younger? Is there anything from the from
Ooh La La that you any quo answer you have
to that?

Speaker 4 (53:07):
Yeah? I mean I was so worried everything was gonna
ruin everything. There were so many choices you make where
you're worried about making the wrong choice that's gonna fuck
everything up. And you know, the truth is, like it
happens anyways. You know, like if you have a lot
of success, people are gonna love you, people are gonna
hate you, and there's nothing you can do about that,

(53:29):
and so you might as well stress less because that
all that's all gonna happen anyways. Like, there was so
much agonizing over choices and frustrations, and it's impossible to
parse which ones were really important and which ones weren't,
you know, Like we had a huge fight with Saturday
Night Live about you know, which songs to play and

(53:51):
whether to edit them and what to play first, And
you know, I don't know if it was important or not.
I don't know. You know, I didn't want to play
on Top of the Pops because I didn't want to
have the band fake. I didn't want to fake it,
you know. You know, when I look back on it,
I think the Saturday Night Live argument was probably really important.
I think the Top of the Pops wasn't at all.

(54:12):
I probably should have just done the show rather than
not do the show. It's their fucking national TV show,
you know, like it would have been. You're saying you
don't want to do something that the Beals did. It's like,
what's the big deal? Like, you know, I probably it
was three minutes out of my life or four minutes
out of my life. Like there were so many decisions
like that that I agonized over, like which one is

(54:32):
going to make everybody think we're going to sell out?
And which way the truth is they're gonna think you're
a sellout just because you dated the wrong girl or
the right girl, you know what I mean? Like that,
all the choices you make, I don't know what they
add up to.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
You know what, Let's say go you're saying exactly the
best advice I ever got, which is do the show
you want to do, because in the end they're going
to cancel you anyway.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
You make the record you want to make. And and
my sense of being around you and being I feel
lucky to have been around you in some of those
studios at different times, coming in and out of your life.
I can say that as much as anyone I ever met,
you were always about making something great. And I think
a lot of the shit you have gotten over the years,

(55:15):
which I think, if I honestly think you might amplify it,
because it you know, you were rightly hurt by it,
and you talked about it, and in a certain way,
none of that really added up to much because I
even I think part of it was just the like
I was up the up in Laurel Canyon with my
wife and kids. You were down the hill bartending at

(55:37):
Johnny you know, the coolest bar in the world, and
you were having all this you know, excitement, And I
think that as celebrity culture and media, you know, uh
sort of social media, all of that was began to
you know, began to start, and the sort of tabloidization
of our society. None of that shit really matters. What

(55:58):
matters is like I always think, and even in the
dock when they get to it's like, get to long December,
because I feel a long December is just the greatest argument.
Like and again where I put you in the great
Jewish writers of all time. It's like you and Irving
Berlin have written the two great If you want to
call it a Christmas song, I know that, Like it's
like the Diehard is it a Christmas movie question? But

(56:20):
like along December's it's just one of the great modern
standards of all time. And now that's clear, right, is it?
Do you feel that?

Speaker 4 (56:29):
Yeah, it's weird. You know, in recent years it's become
this holiday standard, which I think is great. I mean,
it's it's a very special song to me. When I
wrote it, I felt like it was just perfect, Like
it just seemed to have this inevitability to it as
I was writing it, And when I was done, I
was like, well, that is like the best crafted thing

(56:50):
I've ever done. It's just like a perfect Towns Van's
ant song. You know, it just has this thing. It's
the only song I think we've played every show since
I wrote it. It's the only song that I never
mind playing like I get tired of everything. Everybody gets
tired of everything once in a while, and so you know,

(57:10):
I just don't play it, but not that one. I'm
never tired of it. I've always like, can't wait to
play it. I love figuring out some weird cover and
then crashing into Long December out of that cover, whether
it's like Live Forever by Oasis or I don't know
what other ones I've done. I've been doing this one

(57:31):
for the last couple of years, and this Taylor Swift
song the one, and I've been playing it. I figured
out this kind of inside out version of the one,
and I've been playing it into Long December, and it
just feels so great when it crashes into Long December.
From that it's just this I oh, but I always
feel great playing it. It just seems like, yeah, like

(57:54):
a standard, you know, and I feel like it's kind
of getting recognized as that. Now.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Oh well, there's I think of the best writing. Like
I will say, Bob Dylan, who you you know, you
evoked him pretty early on I think you even opened
for him. Later after that, I got to spend some
time with him, and like I did get to tell
him like you made me think words were thrilling. And
there's like a line in a Long December about light

(58:19):
and a girl and the way light like that concept
that you wrote about. And I don't know if there
was you you read it in a great novel. I
don't know if you you know or if it was
just a thought. But in my head it's one of
the crucial lines in my love of words. I mean,
it makes me even think about why I love my

(58:39):
wife like I think of like, I just love the
way light reflects upon her. I spent thirty years that way,
and I think it's and by the way, that's the
other thing I think of you as a writer. You're
a great romantic poet, and it's good to hear, even
long distance, that you're actually in love and having a
great relationship. As far as I know, I think that's. Yeah,
that seems like a good thing for you.

Speaker 6 (59:03):
One cross a crowd.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
See the way that line attashes to a girl, One
make the can one more night and high think you

(59:28):
my god?

Speaker 6 (59:29):
Cat?

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Yeah, you know that line you're talking about. I use
that line as an example when I'm talking about songwriting
with people. You know that I don't think it's important.
What the details matter, like talk about them. You can
use the person's name, talk about what's on the wall
in the room you're in. Don't just say how you feel.

(59:50):
Describe the room, and how you feel will come through
in that. Like to say I love you means a
lot when you say it to someone. When you put
it in a song, it can be rendered kind of
meaningless because it's just this phrase that everyone says, and
it can be a lot like saying blah blah blah,
you know, and so there's no real original or unique

(01:00:12):
meaning in that moment to like give it power unless
it's a really unless you've built the architecture of the
song for that moment to be like strangely bear and
like vulnerable so that it works. But if you just
say all at once, I look across the crowded room
to see the way that light attaches to a girl.

(01:00:34):
On the one hand, you're just talking about what's going
on in the room visually, but all of those feelings
are in those lines. They're just behind the lines. Instead
of just saying I love you, it comes across you
know how much you care about that moment comes across
because of the picture you've made in your mind, you know.
And I think I use that as an example of like.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Well, that's just a great writing lesson for all kinds
of writing, for any kind of writing.

Speaker 4 (01:00:58):
I remember reading like I don't know a movable feast,
maybe when I was a kid, and him talking about
just describe the things in the room.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
You're that's ziggy hemingway, you're talking about this, Yes, you
know that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:12):
Like the people. I remember getting a lot of advice
early in my career that I was too specific, too
many proper nouns, proper names, proper places, and that my
songs were too personal and that was gonna make it
hard for other people to relate to them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
No, it's no say it. I know what you're gonna say.
Say it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:29):
It's the opposite of that, exactly. If something means a
lot to you, that meaning comes across. But I didn't.
I didn't know that at the time. But I still
thought it was dumb advice because like, maybe it will,
but it still makes it a better song that I'm
writing for me and so But the more meaning you
you know, put into something, probably the more that will
resonate for other people too. I mean there's no way

(01:01:51):
to be certain of it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
But like, no, of course, because we relate to each
other's specifics.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
Yeah, and the specifics give it meaning and make it
not generic.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Right, And because even if my specific isn't yours, I
feel that way about something in my life too, and.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
We relate to the fact that this is something very
meaningful to you. Yes, by giving it a real name.
You know, when he says Suzanne, the plans have changed,
the plans that they made put an end to you.
It's like, oh, the fact that her name is Suzanne.
All of a sudden, at that moment's.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Just like, yeah, it personal.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:26):
Have you seen this show Colin from Accounts?

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
No, I've heard, Yes, I love Colin from Accounts.

Speaker 4 (01:02:34):
I've been people have been talking to me about it
for years and I finally Zoe hadn't heard of it
at all. She was like, what is this? I don't
think this doesn't look good? And we started watching it
like a week week and a half ago. That show
is so fucking good and so weirdly specific and real.
Like it has these really funny moments that are grotesque

(01:02:57):
and hysterical, but a lot of the inner personal moments
are so vulnerable and real beautiful. Yes, it's it. It
is a perfect fucking It is so genius this show.
I recommend it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Where can I see it?

Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
I think it's on Paramount Plus now, but it's probably
other places too, are just on Apple TV. It's just
really there's two seasons out. I'm through one and a
half of them. It continues to be fucking genius.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Right, I'm gonna watch because you said that, Oh no,
it's one of those.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
And I have to say, there's few joys as you
get older. There's there's joys that you get less of, maybe,
but like as a married couple for many years that
one of the greatest joys is where you just take
a shot on something. We took a shot on that
and didn't know really anything about it, just looking for
something to watch and when you hit a show that
just hits your energy. It almost reminded me a little

(01:03:47):
bit of my favorite movie of all time, the Scottish
movie by by Bill Foresight.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Local Hero, Local Hero, Yeah, like that, like thin.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
It's like a local hero that have they hit a
comedic funny bone. That is it's almost like in a
low register where you just could I could watch that
kind of comedy forever because it's about people and yearning.

Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
And yeah, I mean right away. In the first two episodes,
they include the best poop joke and one of the
best pig jokes I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Well, now you're in my wheelhouse, and.

Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
I'm a guy who loves a good poop joke like nobody.
But they're so good and so horribly real that it's
it's it's very rich without being like, oh, this is
going to be a poop joke show, but they managed
to do poop jokes at least that one that's so

(01:04:44):
outrageous and the trick, and yet it's still very, very human, like.
They even have a fart joke that just went by
a couple episodes ago that knocked me out of my
I thought it was so genius and so perfect and
so human. Again, I can't tell you how good I
think this show is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
All right, I'm watching it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
See we've discovered a new show, and.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
We we before we run out of time. I want
to say that one thing that I really like seeing
the doc I realized now I think I was watching
the Drummer get you know ushered out as I was there.
I think I hope I didn't push him towards the
exit with like the dry cleaning. Maybe he was trying
to impress me by going to get a laundry and

(01:05:28):
missing missing things, but I was really moved by you
were already great, you know, a great band. But I
will say seeing who's still there that like these guys
who I did have the pleasure of meeting back then,
like Charlie and Dave, I'm trying to think who's right

(01:05:49):
and Dan, who was just sort of I think, really
pretty new into the band at that point that you
are now. And the song have You Seen Me Lately?
Is every time I hear it, I think, wow, they
turned into a great fucking rock band because the first
record it was like you were like in a weird way,
I think the magic was and the thing Robbie Roberts

(01:06:09):
soon and probably picked up on is you were a
great band, like the band. But then it's like you
went electric, you know, with the next album, uh and
with recovering the Satellites, and I think, well, the last
song we want to play in this episode is have
You Seen Me Lately? Because you guys are a great
rock band. And I thought about it even when I

(01:06:30):
was watching the A Complete Unknown, which I heard you
also were shocked to find yourself liking it, Phil, Have
you seen it yet A Complete Unknown?

Speaker 4 (01:06:38):
I have.

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
I was shocked that I could enjoy that at all,
because I was almost traumatized in advance. I can't watch
this movie, and I kind.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
Of, Yeah, I hate movies about music other than some documentaries.
But they're so shitty. They're so searching for bullshit meaning
or like he's a great songwriter, but he's a terrible
man with way, you know, whatever it is. They're always
going through the same fucking bullshit. Or he speaks to
dead Indians and horses, you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Know, like or the long drug sequence.

Speaker 4 (01:07:08):
Yeah, it's just they're so hacked. They're so hacky, and
it's funny in that month when I saw that movie,
because I got to be a I was on the
nominating committee for the sag After Awards last year, So
watch like I watched forty eight or fifty movies for that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
Is that because of is that? Because of accidentally in love?
Being like Oscar nominated? And you know, that's that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:07:36):
I don't know. I'm not an Academy member, but sag After,
you know, they have the SAG Awards, and so I
got to be a nominating you know. And it just
they have all these screenings you can go to with
people talking at them, which is wonderful, but you also
get this app that you can watch things on that
has like, you know, as the weeks go by, more
and more and more thirty forty seventy movies on it,
you know. But uh, in the period of like a

(01:07:57):
week and a half, I saw a Becoming led zep
one yep Co, which training for us because my manager
knew the guy who directed it, and that was incredible. Uh,
And then I saw A Complete Unknown and I was like, oh,
you know what both these movies do. They give you
whole songs. They're not trying to cut away and talk
over everything. They'll let a guy play a song and

(01:08:18):
it it's it makes it really rich. And like both
those movies, that fucking Zeppelin movie with four or five
complete performances by that you know, insanely good rock band,
you know. I mean, but you never see movies except
the Beatles one let It, you know, the Get Back

(01:08:39):
You just nefmtuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Also, the kids are all right, remember the kids are
all right?

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
Yeah, that's another Goo one, but it's a long time ago,
you know, Like I watched The Kids Are All Right
over and over again. You know, whenever we didn't have
something to do on a weekend, we just watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
You know, it's last three numbers that they do and
they just let it. It's a concert all of a sudden.
It's amazing, you know, And both.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
Those movies did that, you know, the documentary about Us,
the director was so good. Amy is such a talented director,
and like I think they kind of took it away
from her, or not took it away from her, but
you know they I think she was sort of forced
to re edit it, and like there's almost I haven't
seen the very final final cut, but there's almost nothing

(01:09:22):
where it goes more than twenty seconds without someone talking
over a song. Oh, because they're doing fair youse stuff
and that's their business model. So like that's sort of
disappointing to me, because like I thought it would be
a great movie about satellites because we had so much
like live footage from that period. We shot Storytellers, we
did Behind the Tent Spot or Live at the Tent Spot.

(01:09:45):
We did a whole film with Josh Taft who did
a live video. He filmed the opening concert for Recovering
the Satellites at the Ford Amphitheater. We had so much
footage of great live stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
So you're saying we should wait for the director's cut.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
No, no, I'm going to say, because I'm in it,
you should see it a try back and it'll be
it'll be on HBO and we'll see, you know, eventually
they'll be the complete I would love the eventual get
back Counting Crows, and I would love a full release
of that first I was at that first concert, and we.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Don't like a full release, Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Pull release sounds good. Happy endings also are good. And
so this is our Adam, thank you. I when I
mentioned accidentally in Love just Now, I realized, like my
happiest memories are with my kids, like driving around playing
like that song was the exact, like taking my kids
to see Shrek and and always being on your side

(01:10:43):
and your fan, and I'm so happy you're you know,
with this new album, it's you're still absolutely at your
peak and it's great to catch up with you.

Speaker 4 (01:10:52):
I hope that people hear it. It'd be great. I
really like these songs. It'd be great to be able
to like really just like play them all live, you know,
have the audience be excited. We've opened a couple of
shows recently with Spaceman in Tulsa and it's worked really
well as and we haven't had a like a new
song that was really great as an opening song in
concerts since Hard Candy probably.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
You know, I love that song. I also, I don't
know if have you been playing under the Aurora much live?

Speaker 4 (01:11:18):
It is?

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
I can't I can't wait to hear that one live.

Speaker 4 (01:11:21):
We will. We've only played like one corporate show and
one radio convention live so far on this record. We
haven't Other than that, it's all been like we've played
on Howard Stern and we played you know, some radio
stuff like that, but we haven't played any concerts yet.

(01:11:43):
I mean, I'm heading down to Nashville Thursday or Friday
to start rehearsals, and then the first gig is tes
next Tuesday, So we'll be playing the stuff live and
we'll definitely be playing Aurora. But we haven't had a
chance to play any of it yet. We've only really
played the only two we've played in concert are space
Man and Uh. We'd love for me to zee and

(01:12:07):
then Imma and I do an acoustic show in London
where we played those two and we also did a
Virginia through the Rain.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Well, Phil, is you gotta you gotta hear the whole album.
You gotta will hear the whole album live because you
love butter and you love miracles and sweets and sweets
more than anything.

Speaker 4 (01:12:23):
What's not to like about this?

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
That's right? Well, thank you so much for doing this album.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
It was a pleasure to meet you, Adam.

Speaker 4 (01:12:29):
Phil is a pleasure to meet you too.

Speaker 1 (01:12:31):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:12:32):
You gotta see Colin from accounts.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
I'm gonna thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (01:12:38):
Let make sure out this sentence on the water my bone.

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
You'll to squeeze revel right out of this stone live,
but our only lone, because these words are the essence
of me. Send them h roll Collapse.

Speaker 8 (01:13:09):
Naked Lunch is a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and David Wilde.
Theme song and music by Brad Paisley, Produced by Will
Sterling and Ryan Tillotson, with video editing by Daniel Ferrara
and motion graphics by Ali Ahmed. Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal,
David Wilde and Our Consulting journalist is Pamela Chella. If
you enjoyed the show, share it with a friend, But
if you can't take my word for it, take Phil's and.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
Don't forget to leave a good rating and review. We
like five stars.

Speaker 8 (01:13:34):
You know, thanks for listening to Naked Lunch, a lucky
Bastard's production.