Counting Crows: Jeff Ross opens for Adam Duritz during A Long December!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Can you hear me?

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, dude, Jeff, how are you?

Speaker 3 (00:05):
Jeff Ross Broadways, Jeff Ross, Hello, guys, direct from the
USO shows overseas.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, I just got the back.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Wow, that's a long flight.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
It was a forty thousand miles.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
I think, God, do you get mileage? Do you do
you get points?

Speaker 1 (00:25):
It doesn't. It doesn't transfer on the CEA seventeens.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
So that's like a like a military cargo plane.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Is that what it's like?

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, so you strapped and you can't Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 4 (00:36):
To lie down.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Huh you can't lie down.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
No, you can't lie down and you can't talk.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
It's like, oh, because so loud for how many hours?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hold on, I'll show you the stats. Yeah, this was crazy.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
I can't stand it. I can't even go across the
country unless I lie down.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Seven days, forty two hours, and twenty five minutes of flying. Wow,
covered nineteen seven hundred and forty six miles, well, visited
five countries, gave five shows, and thirty eight hundred military
people were there. You did just wonderful.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's school speaking of Mitzvah's and bar Mitzvah's, Jeff, are
you aware of the fact that we both went viral.
You're used to it. But the Counting Crows documentary, which
we're going to put this out in time to support.
Have you seen me lately? The Counting cross documentary on HBO?
Have you Are you aware that we're both in the

(01:37):
trailer that somehow has gotten millions of hits?

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well? I was aware that we were in the trailer
because the producer, Bill Simmons gave me a heads up,
and then I saw your tweet saying skip through me
and Jeff and go to the celebrities.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, go to Chris Martin and Cindy Laufer. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
So I think it's great. It's great for the Counting
Crows that they went viral. I mean they they deserve
this victory lap. A lot of bands die and don't
get their victory lap. These guys are still playing.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
I saw them a few months ago. I don't know
if you've seen them lately. They were great. I saw
them just Adam. Adam is one of the great characters
in rock and roll.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
I haven't heard them play, but I did spend time
with Adam. Last month. We do our annual Bob Saget's
Sclaerderma Research annual charity dinner and we gave it the
Bob Saggat Legacy Award to his good pal Adam Durretz,
and Adam came and accepted it, made a very funny speech,

(02:45):
and Nikki Glazer presented it to him. It was a
wonderful night. And Adam's a great guy. Man. I don't
know if you spent much time with those guys, but yes,
really really nice boys and deserve all the success and
accolades in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
And as a band. What do you like about them?
In phil do you? You know? I know, we had
a great conversation which we're going to We're going this
is leading into our revisiting our great conversation with Adam
where we talk about the doc a little. Yeah, what
do you think of the band?

Speaker 3 (03:13):
A kid for them?

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Is that right?

Speaker 4 (03:18):
No?

Speaker 3 (03:18):
They're fantastic. Who doesn't like them? They're great, They're part
of our you know, growing up?

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Love it.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
All I like about them is that like for me?
Like I was always into like the Clash and Kiss
and punk rock and the Ralons and suddenly the Counting
Counting Crows. I was like, oh, all right, I want
to talk to women I'm getting old enough to talk
to women. Yes, the Counting Crows was a good meat

(03:45):
in the middle type band. Got closer definitely helped me
get laid.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yes, well, I always thought, really that's what it took.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Had a mask over my head.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
If only I knew.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
And Jeff asked the question in the documentary and in
the trailer of does anyone fucking who the fuck knows
who mister Jones is? It is amazing how people think
it's one song, but as a documentary shows, they have
so many great songs, including We're in December as we're
speaking and Long December to me has become even more

(04:20):
classic than mister Jones.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, that one really stands the test of time, and
it's very emotional song. Long December. I did a USO tour.
Speaking of USO tours, I took Adam Ooh. This would
have been in the late at some point during the
Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. We went to Landstuhl Medical Center

(04:49):
in Germany and performed for the medical staff there that
was overworked and tired and fatigued and probably needed a
morale boost and a bunch of the comm Robert Klein
Stewie Stone. We went there and I brought Adam and
he wound up doing Long December on a keyboard, a
little chintzy keyboard that they had, and that would bring

(05:11):
the house down. So I'm a big fan.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
You know.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
I can't say I listen to them every day, but
there's certain moods. Sometimes when you're on a plane and
you're feeling a little melancholy, you just want to It's
like listening to a friend.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
The one thing that people don't get about Adam that
I think is always say like sense of humor is
so important. Yeah, Adam as sad as a lot of
the songs can be as emotional as his journey, which
he discusses in the interview are about to have. He's
also funny, which is a huge saving grace when you
can be like Leonard Cohen, who wrote a lot of

(05:47):
sad songs, was also funny as hell, and that helps.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Jeff, maybe you should listen to this interview because because
why you might learn a little something about being funny.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
I'll thank you.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Comedian comedians and musicians they have the sad side, and
I think that's why we force ourselves to laugh and
be funny to counterbalance it.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Do you wish you were a musician?

Speaker 1 (06:15):
You know, I grew up thinking one day when I
was a kid, I was like, one day, one of
the guys some kiss is going to get sick and
they're going to need me, so let me learn guitar
just in case that happens.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yes, it's the fantasy. And then they fantasize about making
people laugh on stage.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
And I do sing a couple of songs in the
Broadway show.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yes, of course.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
By the way, are you editing that? Is that what
you're editing right now? I know you're I'm editing it now.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
We shot it for Netflix and I'm I'm in a
post facility in down on Wall Street right now cutting
it all together and it's translating very well.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
And do we know when when it might be on
Netflix or HBO or whatever it becomes.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
It'll be on Netflix. I'm not sure exactly when yet.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Great are what it's going to be called now as
the channel?

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, right, it's gonna be. It's gonna be a whole
new thing.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Now each other exactly.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
You're gonna watch it where you know where there's only
one channel?

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Well? Now you now your show Phil is on Netflix
and HBO.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Right, what a dream.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
By the way, congrats on your tour and the diner.
I gotta tell you. Come on there the other day
with Bertie Shine, and I saw the family, your family
and the meat loaf. You know, I'm the son of
a caterer. I'm an expert on meatloaf. That was the
best damn meat loaf I think I've ever ever had.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
That's the greatest compliment I've ever gotten.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
That's so great.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
That's son in law of yours. They're doing a good
job the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
And Nancy Silverton's you know, overseeing the the design of
the menu with meaning the recipes. But but Mason Royle
and his new wife, my daughter Lily. Yeah, they run
the whole thing. I couldn't be prouder, so good.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
And we were so lining up. Jeff did you wait
a second? Did did even Jeff Ross have to wait
a moment?

Speaker 1 (08:11):
I went on Friends and Family Withdrew from the property Brothers,
your neighbor, and Vernie who also lives in the neighborhood,
and you know Larchemont. It's such a fun scene over there.
The funny thing is I went two months ago and
thinking it was open and I just knocked that it

(08:33):
was closed. So I went there to go eat well
one day and it wasn't open yet. So you know,
I was like a puppy waiting for the treat. Like
I was waiting, waiting, waiting, I was. I love that
type of food and I knew it would be good.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
I love you, and I'm so happy that you came
to friends and family, and I would like you to
come back and pay.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
No problem, no problem at those prices. Now you know what?
It was so good? What else did I have? It
was like a crumb cake that was really good. Chocolate, Yes,
chocolate crumb cake. My lord. It was so good right
through the ozempic.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
So, Jeff, thank you for doing this special little intro.
And I would suggest everyone go to Max and Helen's
and you have a two and a half hour wait,
which is perfect because you can watch Counting Crows. Have
you seen me lately on HBO on your phone As
you stand and look at Jeff and look at Jeff
and me and Chris Martin and some other people.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
I love it. Yeah, I can't wait to see the
whole movie. And I'm glad that you're propping it up
for Adam and the gang excellent.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well, thank you, Jeff, Jeff, I see you soon.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
When are you back?

Speaker 1 (09:43):
I might be back next week. I'm trying to figure it.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Out, all right. You let me know.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Maybe I meet you at the night.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
I would really really enjoy that. Congrats to you and David.
Always a pleasure to hear from your buddy.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Always love you for doing this. Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
Let's build the beans to the fat, food for thought
and jokes on tap, talking with our mouthsful, having fun,
the beast Cake and humble Pie, serving.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Up class lovely.

Speaker 5 (10:20):
The dressing home side. It's naked lunsh clothing optional.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Hello, there you too, How are you?

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Adam?

Speaker 4 (10:32):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (10:33):
My god? Hello. I don't know if it's good for
you to see me, but I am so thrilled to
see you.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
I've seen you many times. It's always good.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Well, I want you to introduce you to Phil Rosenthal,
who I don't think you've ever met. And I want
to say that it's and I.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
A longtime listener, first time caller.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
I have this strange feeling because we go back to
such an interesting moment in both of our lives. And
I had a feeling back then which I probably never expressed,
which is you've always felt sort of like a family
member to me. In fact, in my household, I was
explaining to Phil before we before you joined us that

(11:15):
like we didn't have the Beatles like you were the
count Count of Crows were the house band of the
Wild family. And I have a picture we rased. We
read my wife, here's the story. Yes, this is how
I want to go back to how we met. My
wife the only artist she ever turned me onto in

(11:36):
our entire marriage. We've been married thirty one years this
year is she fell in love with you first. And
then when Rolling Stone assigned me to fly to Paris
rough band Wow and interview this new exploding hot band.
I liked the band. I had seen you guys at
the Rock and Roll of Fame at a night we

(11:56):
can talk about. But I got on the plane and
my wife David, this is the best record ever. And
I remember on the flight, I think it might have
been overnight to Paris, I fell in love with the
record and just became obsessed. And from that time on
you've been so important in our household. So thank you
for making keeping my family together.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Do you remember David chasing you around the museum in Paris.

Speaker 4 (12:21):
Oh yeah, absolutely, I remember exactly what the kids asked
us right outside the front door. Well to me is
mister Jones, about your dick, And I'll have to think
there's no way that doesn't get in there.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Oh no. Sometimes God gives you the lead of your article.
And I have a theory, Adam about that which is
in my head. I'm trying to think why you are
one of my favorite songwriters of all time. And in
a weird way, this new record, which I love, but
Our Miracle, the Complete Sweets, it made me think about
all of this because to me, it's in part a

(12:57):
record about the concept of a rock star and about
uh and and and in a weird way, I always
feel like it's the Jewish Ziggy starred Us. It's if
Ziggy star Uh start Us Dean or something like that.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
And I have to say, Ziggy start Us does sound
a little Jewish, he.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Does right off the bat. Uh and I always uh,
I yes, well to me, And it maybe goes back
to that flight to Paris listening to rain King over
and over, which is one of my favorite songs ever written.
I really feel like one thing that's great about Adam Is.
He is a in my head, a great Jewish writer,

(13:33):
like I think of you like Bellow, like Philip Roth,
like as a lyricist. It's so smart, it's so self
consciously funny and smart.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
And so many complaints and we all we fuck up
right about our fuck ups more than other people's.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Fuck ups exactly. Uh that when you think back to
that moment in Paris, Uh does it is that? It's
a big moment in my head, but it was it
a big moment for you because and just to follow
that through the end of that day, I think we
went back to the hotel and that's when we were
in the lobby when the word hit the world that

(14:14):
Kurt Cobain had passed away. And I remember still going
up to my room because you were in shock because
you knew Kurt. I was just a fan, really, but
I remember going upstairs and MTV in Europe was showing
a Phil Collins Weekend and thinking, this the world has changed.
This was an important, you know day. I don't know,

(14:36):
I'm sure emotionally it was a bigger day for you.

Speaker 4 (14:39):
Well.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
I was really.

Speaker 4 (14:42):
Nervous and like uncomfortable with being on the with doing
the cover story for our own and Stone, Like, I
think they called me about it, or they called our managers.
I got the news about Rolling Stone wanting to do
it at the Letterman Show. We were about to play
our second television show ever, you know, and it just

(15:04):
felt like a lot, you know, like things had changed
a lot. Was we were about to play our second
television show and then we were going to leave to
go to Europe on our first European tour. And you know,
it's hard to describe it to people nowadays, but to
be on the cover of Rolling Stone back then was
to be like omnipresent. Yeah. I was very shy and
really you know, not comfortable with people, and I was

(15:27):
very anxious about what, you know. When my managers told
me about the cover Rolling Stone, I think I asked
if I could think about it, you know, like for
a second, because even though I mean, you can't turn
that down, of course, it's your future. But I think
I was really aware of how hard it was going
to be for me to be on all those news

(15:48):
stands and have my face on all those covers, and
like I was already struggling a bit with fame that
hadn't really hit yet. And I was very nervous about it.
And the weird thing is, I, you know, we got
on that European tour, which was pretty stressful and like
and exciting and great, you know, And we got to
Paris and I met uh, I met you guys, and

(16:15):
I started to get like more comfortable with the idea.
We'd been walking around for a day, I think. And
and then right as I started to sort of come
around on being okay, we found out that Kurt had died,
you know, and that really freaked me out because I,
you know, we were signed by the same guy, we

(16:35):
were label mates. He was a nice guy. I saw
myself as very parallel to him in a lot of
ways that I knew about but other people didn't know about,
you know, Like I had a lot of problems with
mental illness, and I hadn't you know, nobody knew about that,
and I wasn't going to talk about it with anybody.
But you know, I I had already because of the
mental illness. I had already finished with all the drugs,

(16:57):
like by twenty one or twenty two, so I didn't
have that problem, you know. But I had a lot
of issues that nobody knew about and I saw her
as someone who was in the same shoes as me
and a few years ahead of me, and so it
was very sobering to hear he killed himself, you know,
especially like to hear that as you're entering into this,

(17:21):
like you're touring for the first time overseas, which is
a big thing, and you're talking to Rolling Stone in
order to be on the cover. You know, it was
just kind of nerve wracking right at that moment, it was.
It was pretty uh, you know, it's funny, like I
you know, they they made us redo the cover, you know,

(17:41):
and uh, I remember I wondered why at the time,
but you know, years later when we I think when
we were making the deluxe set of August, we got
Rolling Stone to send us all the pictures to look
at them, and I saw all of mark shots from Paris,
and like as soon as I saw them, I was like, oh, yeah,
I get it. We looked like a bunch of donkeys,
like everyone's e or like it's just like I'm like terrified,

(18:02):
MOPy scared. It's fucking pouring rain. I'm trying to keep
my voice together. I know I'm getting sick because I'm
getting soaked everywhere we go. Our drummer Steve went to
do laundry and pissed some taxi driver off enough that
he drove him to Marseillese. Practically it's like three hours
late for the photo shoot. Like we all just look
like like we just looked like a bunch of donkeys.

(18:24):
That's the only way to describe it. Like, as soon
as I saw those, which is like ten years later,
I was like, oh, I see, I know exactly why
they didn't use these fucking things.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
And how were you How did you feel about David's writing?

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Oh, oh, well, I don't think i'd read any of
it yet at that point.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Oh, I mean after you saw the piece come out,
were you happy with how he treated you?

Speaker 4 (18:46):
Yeah, I mean the the there is editing too, right, Yeah,
I mean you have to take an account editors. Yeah.
The headline for the piece was the biggest new band
in America, which is a big different from the best
new band in America or something like that. You know,
it was a real statement about fame and like popularity.

(19:09):
There were those two things in the story. One was
the Dick line and my sister. You know, David interviewed
with my family for it, and my sister called me
after it and she goes, oh, I had this great
talk with David Wilde. He was so nice, he was funny.
I told him about all of your ABBA records when
you were a kid, and I was like, oh, you idiot.

(19:30):
I'm like, I'm like, that's ending up in the piece
and she said no, no, it was just one thing.
I'm like, you don't understand. You won't you will after
this Like a line in the piece where it says,
when talking about his childhood, his childhood influences Durret's remembers
growing up in Oakland with p Funk and earth Wind
and Fire. His sister remembers his ABA records.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
But by the way, I meant that with no malice.
I love Ah and I think time has proven me
to be correct.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
No, I don't have anything against Abby either, But the
contrast of those two statements was just and I just
like knew it. I was like, you know, it's like,
this is why you can't let your family get involved
these things. They just don't know. They think all the
cutest stories are the best stories, and then they end
up of course in Rolling.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
Stone, it just goes to your well roundedness, that's all.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
Yeah, yeah, you were open to another piece. Was good.
You know, I think I was just more freaked out
about the piece than anything else.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Well, can I can? I I didn't go back to
reread the prison piece. I just phil just read it. Yes,
I didn't want to make myself.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
The GQ piece, which I recommend to people too as
a kind of catch up with you. Now.

Speaker 4 (20:37):
Oh yeah, Grayson's piece. That's a nice piece too. Yeah, yes,
very nice.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
But the thing I do want to apologize is something
that I think for many years I was insensitive to,
which is like, because we would talk at other times.
You were so kind when we brought our kids when
they were old enough to come see you. But like
I will say, one thing that has changed, probably much
for the positive, is like I because you were and

(21:02):
are such a warm, funny, smart guy, I did not
take mental health that seriously. It's like you seemed way
too much of a ment to be, you know, having troubles.
And I think I remember it was many years later
when you made another amazing record, you know, uh, like

(21:25):
many years later we did like a song for song,
and I remember talking about Washington Square around the time
you I guess in my head that's like when you
part of like a reflection of you moving west and
going back finding a home in New York. But I
just remember, it was not until that record, all those
years later, where I went, oh, yeah, you were grappling.

(21:46):
I was, you know, like other stupid pop culture observers,
because you were having this making great music and having
a good social life. I didn't get that you were
dealing with a lot of shit. And I want to
apologize for that.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
Oh that's not your fault. I mean nobody did. I
very purposefully hit all that. I mean I was very
like aware of how the public and pop culture and
by which not meaning you, but like treated mental illness,

(22:23):
which is it's a joke, especially and they they're vicious
about it. And I was very careful not to ever
talk about it until we made Saturday Nights and Sunday Mornings,
which is when Rossevin Square was released, because I felt
like I was slowly circling the drain for many years,
and I didn't want to talk about it publicly until

(22:43):
I at least felt like I had stopped, you know,
going down and you know, got somewhat of a handle
on it because I didn't want to be like a
public joke, you know. I remember there I talked. I
think I told this to Grace and the story. There
was one point where I had to check myself into
the hospital at UCLA for a little while, and I

(23:05):
was checking in right when Mariah Carey was checking out,
and all the papers did for the next few days
was rip her to shreds and make make light of it,
you know. So you know, I'd always been and which
is not was not a surprise to me. That's what
I was sure would happen if I ever talked about
it at a time when I was still not in
control of it at all, you know, so I very

(23:28):
purposefully hid that from everyone, you know. I do think
for years we suffered because I was writing these songs
that were very down, and yet people were seeing me
being like a rock star dating some famous women, and
they would be like, he's fucking her, fuck him for
writing Why is he writing sad songs? What an asshole?
You know? And I think that would have been different
had I been more honest about it. But but I
also didn't feel like it was anybody's business until I

(23:50):
felt like it was, until I felt like I was comfortable,
so that's not your fault at all.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
I was.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
Really hesitant to ever talk about it with any very I.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Feel thank you for telling me that, because I've always
I'll tell you, I've always felt bad about that. I
felt this weird parallel life thing because I don't know
if you even know this, but like I wrote two
Friends books, I was around that world and saw all
that exploding. And I never was mad at you about
having a better social life because I was married, you know,
and still married, So I feel good about all that.

(24:22):
I do remember. The one time I gave you shit
was when this Desert Life was coming out. I went
in the studio and you played me which and I
will put it in this episode of thirty Seconds of
whatever we can use. There's a song called Missus Potter's
Lullaby that I think is one of the three or
four greatest songs ever written. And but at the end
of it, I realized it might be about another very

(24:43):
attractive actress in some way that you had a crush.
And I think I said, this is my favorite song
of all time, and fuck you, because at that point
I'd probably been married like five years, and I was like, okay,
I really it was my one moment where I allowed
myself a little jealousy.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
I will say it made quite the impression on Monica
Potter at the time too.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, who was in a very good You know, I'm
feeling now that I've done my therapy, you you please
speak well.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
I'm wondering if you have the artist's dilemma, which is
if you have personal problems, if that actually does it
help or hinder the art? Do you feel?

Speaker 4 (25:29):
I mean, I think your life is fodder for writing, right,
and also just your thoughts and your feelings. I don't
know that it does either. I think you know, the
things you go through give you stuff to write about,
but too much makes it impossible to write. For me,
you know, too much trauma at any given time, and

(25:49):
you just like I've found it overwhelmed. There are sometimes
I found it overwhelming.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
And so you've had those days where this is yah.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
I mean the building you happiness can be great to
write too, is well? You know, like you get excited
about things. Yes, I mean it's just feeling. You gotta
have a lot of feeling to write. You need you
need a well of stuff.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yes, sensitivity cuts both ways.

Speaker 4 (26:14):
Yeah, and I think they're all really good for writing.
Like I've found I get really excited, like when we
go in the studio and I'm generally in a pretty
good place just because the making music is thrilling. So
like I mean these records, this record, I had it
all written before we went in, But many of our
records I wrote half the record in the studio. I mean,
like Kid, I mean on This Desert Life, I wrote

(26:37):
Missus Potter's Lullaby, Amy Hit the Atmosphere, color Blind Baby,
I'm a Big Star Now, which is in Rounders, Kid, Things,
four Days. Those are all written while we're in the studio.
And there's a bunch off Heart Hard Candies about half
written in the studio too.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
So why did you pre write this one?

Speaker 4 (26:57):
It just happened that way, Uh, you know. And also
because I wrote it in two different chunks and we
recorded in two chunks. It wasn't like I you know,
I wrote about four songs, we made a suite. I
wrote five more we made the other half. It wasn't
like I was in there for a long time. We
also used to be in the studio for like months
at a time because we'd rent these houses. Yeah, we

(27:19):
would like move in so we could be there for months,
so there's plenty of time to write more stuff. Whereas
we made this record, It's funny, it's the longest on
the time it took because of the pandemic and other stuff.
But as far as studio times, Suite was like twelve days.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
And oh so they love you because you saved the money.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah, I mean it was fast this time. We ripped
through it like it's maybe twenty twenty two or three
days for the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Well, I got to tell you, as much as I
love the initial I do, I feel like the making
it a whole album, it really makes it one of
my favorite things you've ever done. Like I think it's
I think the new songs Spacemen in Tulsa under the Aurora,
those are I think some of the greatest things you've

(28:18):
ever done in my top ten of all time. And
there's a little glitter rock through this album to me
that I and I feel like, I think about these
guys who are actually a lot of them actually straight,
wearing platform shoes and glitter outfits and like getting laid
and somehow all of that is in this record. For me,
it may just be pure projection.

Speaker 4 (28:40):
No, I think I was really channeling some of the
glam stuff. I'm always I've always loved Mott Bowie, you know,
the dolls in the music for some of these songs,
and also, uh, you know, my whole life's been spent

(29:03):
in music from when I was a kid, you know,
and first being an obsessive fan and then being someone
who makes it. And you know, you can see that
in Bobby and the Rakings. It's really it's a song
about a guy in a band and what his life
is like. No, I'm sorry in a elevator, Boots and
Bobby is like looking at it from the other perspective
of a fan for whom the band is the thing
that marks all the moments in his life. And then

(29:26):
Spaceman is also kind of about the sort of people
that end up being rock stars or any kind of
art artist. You know that a lot of people who
are artistic people grow up feeling weird and isolated and
different from everyone around them, and often that can be traumatic.
Sometimes it's just uncomfortable and you don't know if there's
going to be a place for you in the world.

(29:48):
And then you find that in art you have the
freedom to be yourself that actually there's this world where
you change from being this outsider to being like an
idol in a way, you know, like and you know,
whether it's because you're a gay kid, or or someone
who deals with some other kind of charm in their childhood,
or just being an artist, you know that, Like for
me at least, rock and roll was a way out
of all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
And one of the things people should know about you
is like Elvis Costello, who we recently did a two
podcasts with T Bone and Elvis together, which was I
got to point out to Elvis I introduced him to
his wife, which was good. I grabbed some credit there.
But also Elvis was one of someone who I think of.
You and Elvis are two of the rock stars in

(30:28):
my life who have always reached out to support other songs.
Like once you made it, you were always saying you
should check out this band. You've always and with your
Outlaw tours, you've always made an effort to do that.
Elvis does that, which I guess.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
Phil is very.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Close with T Bone, who I know you know pretty well.
I think we were both wondering it seems like you
have a complex relationship with obviously that album, and but
it what you know what in your life you know,
as his friend, what do you think of t Bun's
contribution to your career?

Speaker 4 (31:06):
Well, I don't think we'd have one without him, I
mean he My biggest fear when we got signed was
that we'd only been a band for a little while.
I we didn't know what we were or how to
be a band.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Really.

Speaker 4 (31:20):
We sounded a lot like late model roxy music, something
that I felt was like very going to be very
dated very quickly. And also I just didn't feel like
it was it didn't serve the songs as well. We
were a bunch of guys who had a bunch of
influences that sort of affected the way they played, and

(31:43):
we brought all those influences in without like listening to
the songs really and we were just like Dave was
a guy who was very influenced by Stone Roses and
he played a lot of delayed guitar like Edge or
like is his name John Squire, this Stone Park player.
You know, Matt came from this prog rock thing and
he had these Steinberger fretless basses, you know, Like Steve

(32:04):
was like a funk drummer who was very like Stuart Copelandy.
You know, we had all this stuff, and we were
bringing that stuff to put on everything before we really
interpreted anything. And I felt like we needed to learn
to be a band. I had no idea what we
should sound like, but I felt like we were putting
the sound before the songs because we didn't. We'd barely
been a band for a couple months, you know, and

(32:27):
I was very concerned that we didn't know how to
be a great band yet. And and Tebow and I
had a lot of talks about that, and we decided
that the most important thing was to learn to listen
to each other, you know. So we stripped everything out.
We took all of Dave's effects away. We said no
effects on any of the guitars until maybe we'll put
them on in post. We made Mac get rid of

(32:48):
the fretless bassis and get an old Hoffner in a vox.
Steve the drum kit got kit cut down, Charlie just
played piano and organ, no synthesizer on the first album,
really Ellen sim accordion, and we really stood around in
a circle trying to figure out how to be a
band and listen to each other. And like it wasn't
an attempt to be retro or anything, although I think

(33:09):
it came off that way because you know it because
as soon as we could, we turned the guitars way
up and made like recovering satellites, you know. But at first,
I just wanted us to learn to listen to each
other and learn to be a real band, you know,
and t Bone really helped us through that. Like, I
think he's very good. You know, a lot of producers

(33:31):
have this sort of very quantifiable thing where they have
a sound. Even Lily White, as brilliant as he is now,
in the early parts of his career, he just made
everybody sound like you too, that big drums sound, you
know what I mean. Like he's a.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Even Marshall Crenshaw sounded like you too.

Speaker 4 (33:46):
I still used to tease him about that all the time.
He ruined Marshall Crenshaw. You know, field Day is a
terrible sounding record because it's all wrong for him and
coming off that first album that's so, you know what
I mean. But t Bone, like he has this unquantifiable
thing or he'll help you learn to be you in
a lot of ways, you know, And I think that, uh,
you know that can be really great. It was a

(34:07):
huge help for us. It was a big thing for
the wallflowers, clearly for the bodines, you know, for Los Lobos.
But I also think that, like for me, for many
I was never anyone who wanted to, like, go, well,
that was really successful, Let's do it again, you know
what I mean. I always wanted to find the next
new thing, like and I think everyone, including probably to

(34:30):
a certain extent, t Bone, expected us to go back
and make another record with t Bone. And I think
it probably hurt his feelings somewhat that we didn't, you know,
and that I like never even really considered it, you know,
Like I I felt bad about that because I think
that there's a reason and it would have been. It's
totally justifiable to have expected that in some ways, and

(34:52):
I think it made things awkward when we didn't. But
I was looking to something different, you know. I wanted
to make you know, I don't know. I wanted to
work with Gilda. I really wanted to make like other
sounds that I really felt like we could, and I
wanted to learn new things. It wasn't until god, the
last ten years that I really ever wanted to work
with anyone again really, you know, although we did work
with Gil on Saturday nights and we've worked with Brian

(35:15):
Deck mostly since then. But yeah, you know, I think
t Bone's an incredible producer.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
You talked to him at all, You talked to him
pretty regularly a bit.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
But but listen, you're both still alive and still able
to do what you do. It might be nice to
revisit that relationship. But your description of starting out and
listening to each other that it's so relatable to me.
Even though I don't do what you do. I make
TV shows. It's the exact same. When you're starting a

(35:45):
TV show, you don't know what the show's gonna be.
You have to find it where the show really lives,
just like a band.

Speaker 4 (35:54):
It's a very interesting, weird It's a thing that I
don't think people often take into a with music. They
really are more looking for a sound, something that everyone
can grab onto because you're trying to be a part
of a scene or you're trying to like fit in
in some way that's easily comprehensible to everybody. Yeah, and

(36:15):
I think that it helped us in the beginning because
I think we were so unique right then, and it
may have hurt us later because we were never really
right for any radio format, you know. But yeah, we've
never been quantifiable that way as much. You know, I
think we we didn't make it comfortable for our fans
to know what our sound should be from record to record.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
Well, why to me, the mandolin kind of popped through
for me that that sound. Not a lot of people
had that at the time, did they.

Speaker 4 (36:44):
No, No, it wasn't until years. I mean you get
Mumford and Sons and bands like that a lot later.
We were really interested in that right away. Oh, we're
also interested in big loud guitars, you know, like Angels
of the Silences and Catapult. You know, we were like,
to me, the weird about County. People ask me what
our sound is and I'm like, well, counting Crows sounds
like exactly whatever we want it to sound like. Yes,

(37:05):
we make a song, it's a Counting Crow song. They
just don't all sound the same.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
Well, I always say, we're an amalgam of all our influences,
especially when we're starting out where everybody where everything that's
influenced us, and then one day you taste the soup
and it's you.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah. I mean, I think that's the biggest struggle as
a young artist. You know, there's a lot of songs
that were on that demo that got a signed that
I never that people liked, and they wondered why I
never even considered them for the record, and it's because
they were me aping Peter Gabriel or aping something else.
They were songs that sounded like good rock songs, but
they weren't actually great songs to me. The ones that

(37:45):
made it on the record are the ones that were
like real original songs, like rain King.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
You know right, well, rain King. It's funny because I
played I don't think Phil had ever heard the version
where you weave in is it thunder Road?

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Yeah, By the way, that's one of the best covers
ever of anything. I think it's fantastic. And talk about
making something yours, I don't want to sound like an
American idol judge, but you made that song yours in
a way that it's not. You're not just covering that song.
You've reinterpreted the song. Did you Did you record that
on a record other than the live thing that I heard?

Speaker 4 (38:20):
I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Was that something that just popped up one day, Hey,
let's weave that into the into the other song.

Speaker 4 (38:28):
You know, it's one of those songs where, like you
you kind of know the lyrics even if you don't
think you do.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Oh yeah, that's the only song I know by heart.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:36):
I mean, even if you've never tried to cover it,
you probably know it. It's such a journey straight through it,
and I think, but it's harder when you're not singing
it to that music. And I think one day we
were just playing it and I just started screen Door
slams Mary's and I got like a verse and a
half into it or something, and then I ran out
of like I lost my place. And then with the

(38:56):
song and first So for a few nights there, I
kept getting further and further into it, and one time
I finally got all the way through the whole song,
figured out a way to end it and get back
to ranking. Yeah, And so we did it every once
in a while, but it was completely off the top
of my head, like where I was just trying to
figure out a way through it.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
But it's a brilliant reinterpretation. I think it totally works.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
And you've talked about how Springsteen has always been very
nice to you, but you are nervous and you don't
assume that the friendship you've had the exact same experience
Phil has had with him. I've had it to a
lesser extent where it's like Phil is always in my rong.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Maybe he makes me nervous.

Speaker 4 (39:37):
I mean, he's the best guy, he really is.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
And how about now, are you in love with all
this stuff that he's doing. He's so brave and great
and doesn't care and just elder statesman now just great.

Speaker 4 (39:47):
But he's always been that way, yes, but just like goals, Yeah, yeah,
he's he's the shit man. He's just always has been.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
I mean, he could face at the very at least
a tax audit.

Speaker 4 (40:01):
Yeah. I mean, you know, I was talking to Brian
Fallon the other day, you know, from the Gap from
Gaslight Anthem.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Who he's another band. Bruce has always been very nice
and supportive of and they're good friends.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
You know, they live right near each other and everything,
and and Brian said he he asked him when he's like,
you know, uh, is it okay to text you? Or
something like? Can I call you? Like, you know, are
we you know? I don't know, you know, he didn't
want to, you know, take overstep you know, yeah, and
assume something and he said, Bruce said, and it was

(40:36):
so real. He said, you know, it's not just that
I like you, Brian, I like your company. Oho. That
just sounds like that's just like the real thing right there.
And it sounds just like Bruce. It's like somehow like
in a way that I don't get, And not that
I don't get how he does it, but in a

(40:57):
way that I'm not capable of. He always knows how
to get to the heart of everything, the real heart.
Like that's the thing. It's not just that I like you.
I enjoy your company, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
That's like that's something you'd never forget if he said
to you.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
And and it cuts through all of it, like it's
not just no text me any time, which I might say, right,
and I would mean just the good thing. But that's
the thing about Bruce. He's why he's the best writer,
you know, maybe ever in rock and roll in a
lot of way.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
I love that you said that.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
That's great. He just gets to the real heart of
everything in a way that few other people do.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
What has he said to you that stuck with you Hey,
me too, me too.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
That's about it. That's enough. It's enough. I don't know
that I remember any of it.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Was just there going, he's talking to me.

Speaker 4 (41:54):
My fucking poor mind just goes right, just breezes, and
that's terrible. He's always the nicest guy in the world.
It's been true since before I was anything, you know,
Like I used to see him taking my god son
to school when Evan was a kid, you know, a
little kid, you know, he just there. I knew him
because we played the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,

(42:14):
you know, and he was there, and.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah, well, let's talk about that day because it's another
pretty good writer named Robbie Robertson apparently was the one
who Cluden's Yan or whoever at the rock Hall that
like Van Morrison, wasn't going to show up right, and
that day it was one of the only rock and
roll Hall of Fames at that point, maybe the first
in LA I remember being there and it was so

(42:37):
much shit was going on because Eddie Vedder was singing
with the Doors, if I remember correctly, Fogerty was getting
in the credence, was getting inducted, but wasn't going to
play with the other guys. Phil Spector was out there
in the hall and I remember talking to him about
Bruce should not be playing with Fogerty or something.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
You know, I was.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
But in the middle of all that, someone has to
fill in for Van and it's you.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
And you didn't even your first record hadn't come out yet.

Speaker 4 (43:02):
No, I think we're still the only unknown band ever
to play at that thing.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Amazing.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
But the weird thing about it is, I do all
these interviews and people talk about, you know, how we
were going to be famous from the beginning and all
the things that blew us up at the beginning, and
they talk about Saturday Night Live and the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame. And the thing about the Hall
of Fame thing is that no one knew about that.
That was not public. That was very private affair back then.
They didn't publicize that at all, So nobody knew we

(43:30):
even played at it except for the people who were there. Really,
that didn't become a big deal until, like it's almost
retroactively been rewritten as this part of history where we
did this thing and everyone was talking about us after that.
But it wasn't only people that knew about it were
industry people like the public.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
But they talked about it somewhat, but.

Speaker 4 (43:49):
It wasn't really written about a ton you know what.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
There was so much else going on that night. Adam
is right. In fact, my favorite story about that night
and I was there, is one I didn't know until
later when you started doing it, because I did get
to know this woman who I worship in retrospect, Eda James.
Can you tell Phill the story of your memorable brush
with Eda James at night?

Speaker 4 (44:11):
Well, I was coming off, you know, we played We
went in there and played Caravan. I was wearing this
stupid hat. It's like mambo. It's called a mambo sock.
It's like a snowboarding hat. Yeah. And the first time
I throw my head back, you know, turn it up.
First time I hit the chorus, hack was flying off
the back of my head. But I caught it and

(44:33):
I put it back on. But not right. It's like sideways.
I spent the entire song with this hat migrating around
my head. I'm like so gone in the song that
I'm not really cognizant of what I'm doing. I don't
have enough sense to take the hat and throw it away,
but I have enough sense to kind of keep it
from falling off. So it just keeps moving around my head,

(44:55):
and I'm singing my ass off, you know, but I'm
a little distracted by this hat flying all over the place.
And we get to the end of the song, you know,
places cheers. We did really well, but I'm a little
like dazed, you know, because I get really gone on stage,
especially back then, you know, and I'm having the time
of my life. I mean, this is like same baby,

(45:17):
more candy than you've ever seen, you know, Like I
mean for me, like I'm playing at soundcheck that morning,
at the rehearsal the day before, in front of all
of the people I've idolized my whole life. I mean,
the house bands, Don was on bass, Keldner on drums,
Ben Montenche and Roy Bitten on keyboards, Springsteen and Robbie

(45:37):
on guitars. You know, Fogerty's there playing with those guys.
All the members of Credence have come up to talk
to me one by one about the problems in the band.
They've been opening their hearts to me. George Clinton is there,
my hero from growing up in Oakland. George Clinton is
there to duck sly in the family Stone Cream plays.

(45:58):
I'm the first kid in my generation to see cream.
They're fucking unreal, They're so good. It is just the
greatest fucking night.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
You know.

Speaker 4 (46:08):
I'm I'm coming off stage in this days and it's
one of those big, deep stages with multiple curtains down
the sides. Yeah, you know, like like a Vegas stage. Almost.
It's pitch dark behind the curtains. The lights are shining
in your eyes, so you're kind of blinded. But as
soon as you get to one of those curtains, it's
pitch dark in those alley ways between the curtains. And

(46:29):
as I'm walking in the dark off the stage, just
as I get to the dark, I trip over a
cable or something, and I'm my hands are in my pockets.
I think I'm just falling. I'm I'm falling. I'm like,
I'm gonna fucking break my face. I've got no my
hands are in my pockets. I can't do anything about it.
And all of a sudden, I just stop in this vast,

(46:50):
soft pillowy I don't know what, and I like, I
reach my hands out and I find like the arm
of a chair, and then I don't know what it is,
a leg or something. I push up and I realized
that I've fallen right into Edda James breast James basically
into her lap, you know, and she's sitting in a

(47:10):
chair side stage Katie lying and standing beside the chair
because there next Katie's gonna induct Edda. And it saved
my life. I probably would have broken my face, but
I fell right into Edda James. And as my face
comes out of it, I'm so stunned. I'm looking up
at her and at Katie, and Edda says, are you

(47:33):
all right, honey? Oh my god, yeah, yeah, I think so.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
And then she sings ad Land.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
She said, well you sang great.

Speaker 6 (47:44):
I was like, oh, by the way, I interviewed ed
a few times, and she was unforgettably, not only like
an R and B queen forever one of the greatest

(48:07):
of all time.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
She was sassy would be putting an understatement. So I
think I'm quite sure Eda James very much enjoyed the fall.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
I mean, it was just I'll never forget just the
sense of what the fuck just happened. And then when
you push your face out of it, and you're like
that is not what I thought. You know that I
would never in a million years have guessed this was
what I was going to press up into.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
And now it's on your list of great places I've been, Yes.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Which which, by the way, having we did get to
you know, I think I'm trying to think if I'd
been to Paris. I think I'd been there once or
twice before. But Phil has his own you know, somebody
feed Phil Food and Travel show. Are you in your
international travels? Now? Are you be cause you the whole
time I knew you were never a big drinker or

(49:01):
a partier. Do you have certain restaurants and cities that
you I know you recorded a lot of this record,
your worked on it, created a lot of it in England.
Are there places you love to travel and restaurants you
seek out around the world?

Speaker 4 (49:15):
Or no?

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Because you you grew up in Berkeley where Phil is
just with Alice Waters two days ago doing something with
Thomas Keller, who we had on the podcast recently. But Alice,
what was from your Berkeley days? Did you grow up
with any sense of cuisine?

Speaker 4 (49:32):
Oh? Yeah, I mean Alice is my hero. You know
Immer worked at Japanese Oh really?

Speaker 3 (49:38):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (49:38):
I mean, Alice is my hero. My first cookbook is
The Shapanese Pasta, Pizza and Calzone Cooks Excellent. I mean
I I have been cooking all my life, from when
I was a kid. Uh And I think I was
probably drinking a lot more than you thought, just maybe
not around you. But I've always loved going out and
getting wasted a dinner.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Where are we talking to you from now?

Speaker 4 (50:00):
I live in New York.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
I'm home, okay, which part the village?

Speaker 4 (50:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (50:04):
And what's your I'm going to be there in a
couple of weeks. What's your go to restaurant in New
York right now?

Speaker 4 (50:10):
Emilio's Ballatto.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Oh, I love it. That's where we had our son's
graduation from NYU party.

Speaker 4 (50:16):
I mean amelios Is. We used to go there every
Sunday for all. I haven't done it as much recently,
but that restaurant is fucking incredible. It is one of
the best dishes I've ever eaten in the world, but
one of my favorite, like foods. I think about the
tripe at Emelios Oh real, like you know, those kinds
of like awful. Those kinds of food were always immigrant foods,

(50:39):
you know, because they were cheaper, and so that's this
kind of food that it should be the kind of
food that someone's grandmother would make, like my grandmother making
chopped liver when I was a kid that I still about,
you know, the tripe. The tripe has become a fancy
thing in a lot of ways, but it's at Emilios.
It's this warm, perfect comfort food in their perfect tomato sauce.

(51:00):
It is fucking sublime. It is so goddamn good. Uh,
it's one of my favorite dishes anywhere in the world.
That's one of my favorite New York restaurants. I think
it's out of this world. Agree, I'm trying to think
what else. You know, There's a Santa Lucia in downtown
Milan has this perfect just pasta with tomato sauce that

(51:23):
is so good. It's just they make a little pizzas too,
but the it's kind of a business lunch place for
I think the record business and other businesses in Milan.
But it's just this perfect simplicity of spaghetti and tomato
sauce that like, I don't know anyone else who does
it that well. And then my friend h Asteria Frontiscana

(51:50):
up in of course Massimo's place is Yes, that's an incredible.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
In the world. Yeah, you guys are touring soon, right, Yeah,
so do you leave time in your schedule to enjoy
places like this?

Speaker 4 (52:07):
No, it sometimes happens if we get to go to
a tour, start a tour early. Yeah. The one time,
the first time I went to Massimo's place, like, I
spent like we drove up there with some friends and
one time I just spent like three or four days
up there and just like hung out with him when

(52:27):
he was off work, and he took me to like
the tratoria that his across the street from the little
heating factory his dad had owned, Yeah, for lunch and
they just made a million kinds of pasta that were unreal.
Oh yeah, Like I love Massimo. He's one of my
favorite people. Just finding time. Problem is touring you don't
really have time unless they accidentally have time.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
But make time.

Speaker 4 (52:49):
Italy a good place I build it in.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
You're not just I mean, certainly you have a day
off or too. You can't just do one night ers right.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
Right, But day offs for me, I'm a monk. I
can't talk like I in order. When I was young
and I struggle a lot keep my voice together. Yeah,
I stopped struggling when I stopped doing anything. So I
don't go out to dinner really on tour because uh,
I can't really talk at all. So I'm really careful nowadays,
but I still try and do some stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Well, I want to talk about your voice for a second,
because you are, in addition to one of my favorite writers,
one of my favorite vocalists. Which is interesting because always
because I go back to like, uh, there's a track
which I think I've play almost everyone I know with
Nancy Griffith Griffin. The it's a going back to India
and going back to Georgia, right, which I don't know

(53:39):
if that's meaningful in your life. I think it's you
as a background vocalist on that. And with our friend
Jacob Dylan, you know, with six Avenue Heartache. Those are
two times where I go like, you're not only one
of my favorite lead singers, You're one of my favorite
sort of harmony background singers of all time.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
I think going Back to George is probably the best
guest vocal I ever did. It's just perfect to me,
like that song. She let me rewrite the song, so
I wrote all my verse parts myself, rewrote the lyrics
to the verse parts. Uh and and then you know,
I just I copped the the harmonies in the vocal

(54:18):
from what was on the demo, which I think was
sung by al Anderson. But Nancy was really nice. I
was really nervous about telling you when I got to
Nashville to do those sessions where her I was like
between gigs. I like literally flew on a red eye
to get there, did the stuff, went out drinking with
Nancy and she told me stories, and then I left
the next day to go back to wherever we were playing.

(54:40):
But uh, yeah, because the guitars on there are app
wow and played the like the electrics on there, and
he sang the original vocal. So she let me rewrite
the lyrics to the to the verses. And I was
real nervous, but when I told her I'd done it,
she was just excited. And then I just felt like
I just sunk into that song and we just made
this perfect three minute thing.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Well, I want to we're gonna put a little bit
of that into this episode because I think it's one
of my favorite things. And when she passed, I just
found myself I got to know her a little bit
and mutual friend de Lile love it. You know, I
felt like I knew her even more and that is
one of I think that's my favorite things she ever did.
And you really had a little magic there.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
Yeah, it just it just felt like this perfect thing
that we did. I really loved it, and I hadn't
I got to know her back then, and I hadn't
seen her in a really long time. I went to
see some shows after that, my parents see her, but
I hadn't seen her in a really really long time
when she passed. I have a habit of doing that.
I get off on my own head and I like
and so time goes by and I haven't seen someone,

(55:40):
and you know, you get to this age where you
don't have the chances to see them. You know, happened
with Alex Chilton too. I hadn't seen Alex in a
few years when he passed away. Yeah, it's a trying
to be better about that.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Well, the thing that's interesting is to me, again, I've
always this is marking on a curve. You've never not
been a great singer, but I feel like vocally these
new songs are the best you've sound like the new
songs aren't that could complete this as an album. I
think it's the best vocals. I think it's the best
you've sounded and looked like it's it's almost like you've

(56:15):
lost some years, like there was a period in between
where like like Pallisades Park was a big record, I
think for you, a big song, you know, a big song.
I literally grew up, I was raised around. My first
memory is Palisades Park, the literal place, So that was
a big record. But I think this new material you
were just singing so great.

Speaker 4 (56:36):
Yeah, I feel like I got inside these ones in
a way that really like I mean, I feel like
I'm getting better and better as a singer too. I've
lost some off the top of my range, but my
actual singing, like my ability to be in the song
is getting better and better. And like I just felt
like I was crushing it on this record, Like it

(56:57):
was it was just easy and I was just I
knew what to do, I knew how these songs should be.
I was able to really dig in on them. I
think my vocals are really good on the suite too,
But like this other half of it, I just felt
like so in tune with the band too.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
About the band, there's this documentary premier at Trobeco. We
don't have to talk about it too much, but I'm
in it, so that is my I feel like I
should mention. And one of the things that I did
find fascinating from my point of view was you are
such a compelling personality and have such a unique role
in your band that I had not. I'd met a

(57:36):
bunch of the guys, and Charlie is sort of a
friend through his wife and all that, but I thought
it was fascinating to hear the other guys be very
open and honest and very sort of like. It was
a perspective that hasn't often come through. I don't know
if it is annoying to you, but it was very
interesting to me.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
No, I think the best thing about that movie, and
I haven't seen the very finished product, but I think
the best thing about it it is like the other
people in it in some ways, my friends talking about
stuff and and the band, like I really like appreciated
that they took the time to talk to all those people,
you know, like I think the band, like Emmer is

(58:15):
really funny, Charlie's really thoughtful, Dave's great. You know, they
just all had cool things to say. I mean, who
else but them has a right to have opinions on
all that stuff, you know, like they're so I do
think they get skipped over a lot, which is a
shame because it's just so dumb. Because the things I'm
getting credit for, they're just skeletons. I mean, they're just

(58:37):
like some words and some chords. If you love my songs,
it's because of the work we did together, all of us,
you know, to turn those little skeletons into things that
you really feel. You know, Counting the Counting Crow's song
is this thing that we all make together, you know,
which is why you know Underwater Sunshine is really good too,
even though I didn't write any of it, you know

(58:57):
what I mean, because those guys are.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
Really cool covers record. In fact, there's a question I
want to ask you based on that record, because you
do the greatest faces song of all time, which asks
a question that at our age is you're I think
you're a little younger. Uh, but that question about wishing
what do you wish you knew?

Speaker 4 (59:17):
Then?

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (59:18):
You know, uh, what do you wish you'd known when
you were when you were younger. Is there anything from
the from Ooh La La that you any qu answer
you have to that?

Speaker 4 (59:28):
Yeah, I mean I was so worried everything was going
to ruin everything. There were so many choices you make
where you're worried about making the wrong choice that's gonna
fuck everything up. And you know, the truth is, like
it happens anyways. You know, like if you have a
lot of success, people are gonna love you, people are
gonna hate you, and there's nothing you can do about that,

(59:50):
and so you might as well stress less because that
all that's all gonna happen. Anyways. Like, there was so
much agonizing over choices and frustration, and it's impossible to
parse which ones were really important and which ones weren't.
You know, Like we had a huge fight with Saturday
Night Live about you know, which songs to play and

(01:00:11):
whether to edit them and what to play first, and
you know, I don't know if it was important or not.
I don't know. You know, I didn't want to play
on Top of the Pops because I didn't want to
have the band fake. I didn't want to fake it,
you know. You know, when I look back on it,
I think the Saturday Night Live argument was probably really important.
I think the Top of the Pops wasn't at all.

(01:00:33):
I probably should have just done the show rather than
not do the show. It's their fucking national TV show,
you know, like it would have been. You're saying you
don't want to do something that the Beals did. It's like,
what's the big deal? Like, you know, I probably it
was three minutes out of my life or four minutes
out of my life. Like there were so many decisions
like that that I agonized over, like which one is

(01:00:53):
going to make everybody think we're going to sell out?
And which one the truth is, they're gonna think you're
gonna sell out just because you dated the wrong girl
or the right girl, you know what I mean? Like that,
all the choices you make, I don't know what they
add up to.

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
You know, you're saying exactly the best advice I ever got,
which is do the show you want to do, because
in the end they're going to cancel you anyway you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Make the record you want to make. And and my
sense of being around you and being I feel lucky
to have been around you in some of those studios
at different times, coming in and out of your life.
I can say that as much as anyone I ever met,
you were always about making something great. And I think
a lot of the shit you have gotten over the years,

(01:01:35):
which I think, if I honestly think you might amplify
it because it's you know, you were rightly hurt by it,
and you talked about it, and in a certain way,
none of that really added up to much because I
even I think part of it was just the like
I was up the up in Laurel Canyon with my
wife and kids. You were down the hill bartending at

(01:01:57):
Johnny you know, the coolest bar in the world, and
you were having all this you know, excitement, And I
think that as celebrity culture and media, you know, uh
sort of social media, all of that was began to
you know, began to start, and the sort of tabloidization
of our society. None of that shit really matters. What

(01:02:17):
matters is like I always think, and in even in
the dock, when they get to it's like, get to
long December, because I feel a long December is just
the greatest argument. Like and again where I put you
in the great Jewish writers of all time, it's like
you and Irving Berlin have written the two great. If
you want to call it a Christmas song, I know that,
like it's like the Diehard is it a Christmas movie question?

(01:02:40):
But like along December's, it's just one of the great
modern standards of all time. And now that's clear, right,
is it? Do you feel that?

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
Yeah, it's weird, you know, in recent years it has
become this holiday standard, which I think is great. I mean,
it's it's a very special song to me. When I
wrote it, I felt like it was just perfect, Like
it just seemed to have this inevitability to it as
I was writing it, and when I was done, I
was like, well, that is like the best crafted thing

(01:03:09):
I've ever done. It's just like a perfect Towns Van's
ant song. You know, it just has this thing. It's
the only song I think we've played every show since
I wrote it. It's the only song that I never
mind playing, Like I get tired of everything. Everybody gets
tired of everything once in a while, and so you know,

(01:03:30):
I just don't play it, but not that one. I'm
never tired of it. I've always like can't wait to
play it. I love figuring out some weird cover and
then crashing into Long December out of that cover, whether
it's like Live Forever by Oasis or I don't know
what other ones I've done. I've been doing this one

(01:03:51):
for the last couple of years, this Taylor Swift song,
the One, and I've been playing it. I figured out
this kind of inside out version of the one, and
I've been playing it into Long December, and it just
feels so great when it crashes into Long December. From
that it's just this I oh, but I always feel
great playing it. It just seems like, yeah, like a standard,

(01:04:15):
you know, and I feel like it's kind of getting
recognized as that.

Speaker 6 (01:04:17):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Oh well, there's I think of the best writing. Like
I will say, Bob Dylan, who you you know? You
you evoked him pretty early on. I think you even
opened for him. Later after that I got to spend
some time with him and like I did, get to
tell him like you made me think words were thrilling.
And there's like a line in a Long December about

(01:04:38):
light and a girl and the way light like that
concept that you wrote about. And I don't know if
there was you you read it in a great novel.
I don't know if you you know or if it
was just a thought. But in my head it's one
of the crucial lines in my love of words. I
mean it. It makes me even think about why I

(01:04:59):
love my wife like I think of like, I just
love the way light reflects upon her. I spent thirty
years that way, and I think it's And by the way,
that's the other thing I think of you as a writer.
You're a great romantic poet, and it's good to hear,
even long distance, that you're actually in love and having
a great relationship as far as I know, I think that's. Yeah,

(01:05:19):
that seems like a good thing for you.

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
Yeah, you know that line you're talking about. I use
that line as an example when I'm talking about songwriting
with people. You know that, I don't think it's important
what that details matter, like talk about them, you can
use the person's name, talk about what's on the wall
in the room you're in. Don't just say how you feel.

(01:05:43):
Describe the room and how you feel will come through
in that. Like to say I love you means a
lot when you say it to someone. When you put
it in a song, it can be rendered kind of
meaningless because it's just this phrase that everyone says, and
it can be a lot like saying blah blah blah,
you know, And so there's no real original or unique

(01:06:04):
meaning in that moment to like give it power unless
it's a really unless you've built the architecture of the
song for that moment to be like strangely bear and
like vulnerable so that it works. But if you just
say all at once, I look across the crowded room
to see the way that light attaches to a girl.

(01:06:26):
On the one hand, you're just talking about what's going
on in the room visually, but all of those feelings
are in those lines. They're just behind the lines. Instead
of just saying I love you, it comes across, you know,
how much you care about that moment comes across because
of the picture you've made in your mind, you know.
And I think I use that as an example.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Of like, well, that's just a great writing lesson for
all kinds of writing, for any kind of writing.

Speaker 4 (01:06:50):
I remember reading like I don't know a movable feast
maybe when I was a kid, and him talking about
just describe this thing in the room.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
You're that's ziggy, hemingway you're talking about this, Yes, you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
Know that like the people. I remember getting a lot
of advice early in my career that I was too specific,
too many proper nouns, proper names, proper places, and that
my songs were too personal and that was gonna make
it hard for other people to relate to them.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
No, it's no say it, I know what you're gonna say.
Say it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
It's the opposite of that. Exactly. If something means a
lot to you, that meaning comes across. But I didn't.
I didn't know that at the time. I still thought
it was dumb advice because like, maybe it will, but
it still makes it a better song that I'm writing
for me and so but the more meaning you, you know,
put into something, probably the more that will resonate for

(01:07:41):
other people too. I mean, there's no way to be
certain of it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
But like, no, of course, because we relate to each
other's specifics.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
Yeah, the specifics give it meaning and make it not generic.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
And because even if my specific isn't yours, I feel
that way about something in my life.

Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
Too, and we relate to the fact that this is
something very meaningful to you. Yes, by giving it a
real name. When he says, Suzanne, the plans have change,
the plans that they made put an end to you.
It's like, oh, the fact that her name is Suzanne,
all of a suddenk that moment's just.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
Like, yeah, personal, Yeah, have you seen.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
This show Colin from Accounts?

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
No, I've heard. Yes, I love going from Accounts.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
I've been people have been talking to me about it
for years, and I finally Zoe hadn't heard of it
at all. She was like, what is this? I don't
think this doesn't look good? And we started watching it
like a week week and a half ago. That show
is so fucking good and so weirdly specific and real,
like it has these really funny moments that are grotesque

(01:08:47):
and hysterical, but a lot of the inner personal moments
are so vulnerable and real beautiful. Yes, it's it is
a perfect fucking It is so genius this show. I
recommend it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
Can I see it?

Speaker 4 (01:09:01):
I think it's on Paramount Plus now, but it's probably
other places too, are just on Apple TV. It's just
really there's two seasons out. I'm through one and a
half of them. It continues to be fucking genius.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Right, I'm gonna watch because you said that, Oh no,
it's one of those and I have to say, there's
few joys as you get older, there's there's joys that
you get less of, maybe, but like as a married
couple for many years that one of the greatest joys
is where you just take a shot on something. We
took a shot on that and didn't know really anything
about it, just looking for something to watch, and when

(01:09:34):
you hit a show that just hits your energy. It
almost reminded me a little bit of my favorite movie
of all time, the Scottish movie by by Bill Foresight,
Local Hero, Local Hero.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
Yeah like that, like things like Local.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Hero that have they hit a comedic funny bone. That
is it's almost like at a low register where you
just could I could watch that kind of thing common
forever because it's about people and yearning.

Speaker 4 (01:10:03):
And yeah, I mean right away. In the first two episodes,
they include the best poop joke and one of the
best pig jokes I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Well, now you're in my wheelhouse, and I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:10:14):
A guy who loves a good poop joke like nobody.
But they're so good and so horribly real that it's
it's and it's very rich without being like, oh, this
is going to be a poop joke. Show. But they
managed to do poop jokes at least that one that's
so outrageous and the trick, and yet it's still very

(01:10:39):
very human, like they even have a fart joke. It
just went by a couple episodes ago that knocked me
out of my I thought it was so genius and
so perfect and so human. Again, I can't tell you
how good I think this show is.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
All right, I'm watching it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
See you've discovered a new show, and uh we we
before we run out of time. I want to say
that one thing that I really like seeing the doc
I realized you now. I think I was watching the
drummer get you know ushered out as I was there.
I think I hope I didn't push him towards the
exit with like the dry cleaning. Maybe he was trying

(01:11:15):
to impress me by going to get a laundry and
missing is missing things. But I was really moved by
you were already great, you know, a great band. But
I will say seeing who's still there, that like these
guys who I did have the pleasure of meeting back then,
like Charlie and Dave who is right, and Dan who

(01:11:37):
was just sort of I think, really pretty new into
the band at that point that you are now and
the song have You Seen Me Lately? Is Every time
I hear it, I think, wow, they turned into a
great fucking rock band because the first record it was
like you were like in a weird way. I think
the magic was and Robbie Roberts soon and probably picked

(01:11:57):
up on is you were a great band, like the band.
But then it's like you went electric, you know, with
the next album, uh and with recovering the Satellites, and
I think, well, the last song we want to play
in this episode is have You Seen Me Lately? Because
you guys are a great rock band. And I thought
about it even when I was watching The Complete Unknown,

(01:12:19):
which I heard you also were shocked to find yourself
liking it, Phil, Have you seen it yet? A Complete Unknown?

Speaker 4 (01:12:26):
I have.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
I was shocked that I could enjoy that at all,
because I was almost traumatized in advance. I can't watch
this movie, and I kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:12:34):
I hate movies about music. I mean, other than some documentaries,
but they're so shitty. They're so searching for bullshit meaning
or like he's a great songwriter, but he's a terrible
man with women, you know, whatever, it is they're always
going through the same fucking bullshit. Or he speaks to
dead Indians and horses.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
You know, like or the long drug sequence.

Speaker 4 (01:12:54):
Yeah, it's just they're so hacked. They're so hacky, and
it's funny. In that month when I saw that movie
because I got to be a I was on the
nominating committee for the sag After Awards last year. Watch
like I watched forty eight or fifty movies for that?

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Is that because of is that because of accidentally in
love being like Oscar nominated? And you know, that's that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:13:21):
I don't know. I'm not an Academy member, but sag
After you know, they have the SAG Awards, and so
I got to be a nominating you know, and it
just they have all these screenings you can go to
with people talking at them, which is wonderful. But you
also get this app that you can watch things on
that has like, you know, as the weeks go by,
more and more and more thirty forty seventy movies on it,
you know. But uh, in the period of like a

(01:13:42):
week and a half, I saw a Becoming led Zeppelin
yep course, which training for us because my manager knew
the guy who directed it, and that was incredible. Uh
and then I saw a complete unknown and I was like, oh,
you know what both these movies do. They give you
whole songs. They're not trying to cut away and talk
over everything. They'll let a guy play a song and

(01:14:04):
it it's it makes it really rich. And like both
those movies, that fucking Zeppelin movie with four or five
complete performances by that, you know, insanely good rock band,
you know. I mean, but you never see movies except
the Beatles one let It, you know, the Get Back.

(01:14:24):
You just that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
Also, the kids were all right, Remember the kids are
all right?

Speaker 4 (01:14:30):
Yeah, that's another go one. But it's a long time ago,
you know, Like I watch The Kids are all Right
over and over again. You know, whenever we didn't have
something to do on a weekend, we just watch it.
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
It's last three numbers that they do that. They just
let it. It's a concert all of a sudden. It's amazing,
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:14:45):
And both those movies did that. You know. The documentary
about us, the director was so good. Amy is such
a talented director, and like I think they kind of
took it away from her, or not took it away
from her, but you know, they I think she was
sort of forced to re edit it, and like there's
almost I haven't seen the very final final cut, but

(01:15:06):
there's almost nothing where it goes more than twenty seconds
without someone talking over a song. Oh, because they're doing
fair youse stuff and that's their business model.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
So like.

Speaker 4 (01:15:16):
That's sort of disappointing to me, because, like I thought
it would be a great movie about satellites because we
had so much like live footage from that period. We
shot storytellers, we did behind the ten Spot or Live
at the Tent Spot. We did a whole film with
Josh Tafft, who did a live video. He filmed the
opening concert for Recovering the Satellites at the Ford Amphitheater.

(01:15:38):
We had so much footage of great live stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
So you're saying we should wait for the director's cut.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
No, no, I'm gonna say, because I'm in it, you
should see in a trade back up and it'll be
on HBO and we'll see, you know, eventually they'll be
the complete I would love the eventual get back Counting Crows,
and I would love a full release of that first
I was at that first concert and.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
We don't like a full release, yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
Full release sounds good. Happy endings also are good. And
so this is our Adam, thank you. I when I
mentioned accidentally in love just now, I realized, like, my
happiest memories are with my kids, like driving around playing
like that song was the exact, like taking my kids
to see Shrek and and always being on your side

(01:16:28):
and your fan. And I'm so happy you're you know,
with this new album, it's you're still absolutely at your
peak and it's great to catch up with you.

Speaker 4 (01:16:37):
I hope that people hear it. It'd be great. I
really like these songs. It'd be great to be able
to like really just like play them all live, you know,
have the audience be excited. We've opened a couple of
shows recently with Spaceman in Telsa and it's worked really
well as and we haven't had a like a new
song that was really great as an opening song and
concerts since Hard Candy. Probably you know I love that song.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
I also, I don't know if have you been playing
under the Aurora much live? It isn't. I can't wait
to hear that one live.

Speaker 4 (01:17:06):
We will. We've only played like one corporate show and
one radio convention live. So far on this record, we
haven't other than that, it's all been like we played
on Howard Stern and we played you know, some radio
stuff like that. But we haven't played any concerts yet.

(01:17:29):
I mean, I'm heading down to Nashville Thursday or Friday
to start rehearsals, and then the first gig is two
next Tuesday, so we'll be playing the stuff live and
we'll definitely be playing Aurora. But we haven't had a
chance to play any of it yet. We've only really played.
The only two we've played in concert are Spaceman and

(01:17:50):
we'd love for ma to Z and then im Er
and I do an acoustic show in London where we
played those two, and we also did Virginia through the
Rain bill.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Is you gotta hear the whole album? You gotta will
hear the whole album live because you love butter and
you love miracles and sweets and sweets more than anything,
and what's not to like about this? That's right? Well,
thank you so much for doing this, Adam.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
It was a pleasure to meet you, Adam.

Speaker 4 (01:18:14):
Phil is a pleasure to meet you too. Thank you.
You gotta see Colin from accounts.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
I'm gonna thank you so much.

Speaker 7 (01:18:22):
Naked Lunch is a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and David Wilde.
Theme song and music by Brad Paisley, Produced by Will
Sterling and Ryan Tillotson, with video editing by Daniel Ferrara
and motion graphics by Ali Ahmed. Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal,
David Wilde, and our consulting journalist is Pamela Chella. If
you enjoyed the show, share it with a friend, But
if you can't take my word for it, take Phil's.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
And don't forget to leave a good rating and review.
We like five stars.

Speaker 7 (01:18:47):
You know, thanks for listening to Naked Lunch, A Lucky
Bastard's production.

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