David Gelb, Creator of "Chef's Table" and "Chef's Table: Legends"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
David, Guess what what, sir?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We have a very very.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Special guest today, one of the pioneers of a certain
type of art form.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
How about that? And a guy who helped your Netflix
success story become even possible.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
I owe him a sand.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
And he's very young to be a legend, but he's
sort of a Chef's Table legend of the different sort of.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
The legend of the Chef's Table legends and all of
Chef's da ladies and gentlemen, David.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Guests, let's build the means to the fat, food for
thought and jokes on tap. We're talking with our mouthsful,
having fun. The BEA's cake and Humble Pies, serving up

(00:54):
class lovely. The dressing on the side, it's naked love.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Clothing option.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
He drank.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Everybody you.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Saw every word.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Can I ask you about I am a fan of
Chef's Table, and uh, but I think the coolest fan
to me. Bono said something about Chef's Table. Do you
know about this? I think said that when he was
injured and hurt at one point he had a bad injury,
he became obsessed with Chef's Table. And I thought, now

(01:44):
that is the idea of Bono binge viewing blowing through
uh you know, rattle and humming to Chef's Table is
cool to me.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
That's amazing. That may be one of the best ones
that I've heard. So wait, how did you hear that?

Speaker 2 (02:00):
He said it in an interview he was talking about
you watch Chef's Table. I mean that he I think
it was during the during the darkest time when he
was like he had a few like health things that
he followed his bicycle in time in Central Park. I
think or something that that's what that's what he used
to be.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
Well, I'm I'm a big fan of the Joshua Tree
is one of my favorite albums, like ever, I love that.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
I love that. Who are the other fans you mentioned?
There's been some other I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, we're very fortunate that we have some fans and
many of them have been vocal about it, which has
been helped us. You know, it's helped us kind of
stay alive. I'm one of them, going, thank you, Phil.
Going back to the Giro Dreams of Sushi days, you
know j Sushi was the documentary it is.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
We were talking about it before you got here. Yeah,
it documentary.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
It started. It started the whole chef's table experience.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Not only that, I think it made sushi famous, Sushi
itself as a genre.

Speaker 4 (02:56):
Well, I think sushi as because sushi was popular. It
was like the California roles, the Philadelphias, but like Japanese
style sushi, yes, and the omakase really and people the.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Artistry of it and how special it is. I mean,
that's no small achievement.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Thank you made there.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Thank you, that's incredible.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
So so going back to the Giro days, yeah, some
kind of interesting people who really got into it. Hugh
Jackman is a regular he uh not only that, but
he also screened. I was told that he screens the
movie for some of his friends. I'm not his friends,
his crews on his movies. I don't know if he
still does that, but and he also he also brought

(03:35):
the whole le mis cast there, and there's all that,
and then there it's a big cast I imagine maybe
maybe it's only the h Russia above the liners. You know.
Then there was Barack Obama famously eight there with Abe,
the Prime Minister, and that was pretty cool. So he

(03:59):
he did that, and then what else there's I mean,
it's a lot and it's it's it's really We're really
fortunate in that sense.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeh, it's beautiful. It's cool. What's Legends been like for
like the whole it seems like it's elevated Chef's Table
and it's getting attention, including Phil Where were where were
you with the with the Chef's Legends.

Speaker 5 (04:22):
Just this past weekend in San Francisco, we did something
for charity where I interviewed Thomas Keller and Alice Waters,
two of the Netflix legends.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
We even led with a little highlight reel of Chef's
Table Legends. The other two are Jamie Oliver and jose Andres.
It's it's a beautiful series. You have many legends that
you could keep going just with that. Do you think
you will?

Speaker 4 (04:50):
I mean absolutely, I think that you know, when it
come to the leg When it came to the Legends,
trick was a lot of well, a lot of what
we've done on Chef's Table in the past has been
kind of a making chefs that may be well known
in the food world, kind of giving them some shine
and like abroad with a broader audience and helping them,

(05:12):
you know, a lot of them for a lot of
our viewers, the chefs are discoveries. In the case of Legends,
we needed to make sure that we were going to
be able to give the audience something that they hadn't
seen before. And that kind of comes because you know,
these are household names. Jose Andres has been the star
of He's on TV shows, he's.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
In the movies.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
You know, he's he's he's very famous and to make news,
and he's also feeding the hungry, and he's you know,
just like an abolute, absolute star. You have a little
bit of a mayout their ample animal sauce on your
ample saucing at a largemont. That's wonderful. This is like
a very indulgent, delicious sandwich. It's fantastic. It is the
perfect It has the perfect elements of the texture that

(05:55):
the baguette is not too hard, nothing is squeezing out
the sides. It's really special. I love how Yeah, I
stand by a large amount of wine and cheese. And
every day they make the sandwiches until they run out
of bread.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
That's right. Also in the bargain, which is something in
the world food.

Speaker 4 (06:14):
They haven't up sold, Yeah, they haven't. The very honest
and also they have a wonderful wine selection and liquor
selection there as well. What were we talking about again,
Oh yeah, right, so these are household names. Yeah, for
the most part. Jamie Oliver, the Naked chef, you know, huge,
Alice Waters, very very famous for being the the the
mother of the farm to table you know, era of

(06:37):
cooking and showing people that a salad can be beautiful,
and so all of these things people know them for.
But just the nature of our process allows for a
more intimate experience. Because we are interviewing them for hours
and hours and hours over a course of ten days.
They get out all the normal stories that they tell,

(06:58):
you know, because they've done thousands of interviews, it must
be in the thousands, right, And what can they if
we give them enough time and we really commit, and
we build a bond with them, you know, and we're
there and we're sharing parts of ourselves with them as well.
They really it becomes more of like a deep conversation

(07:18):
kind of therapeutic both for the director and for the subject.
And then we're able to get kind of go deeper
and discover some new things and some new meaning behind
the story. And that's really the goal here. And that's
what I think makes legends so special is that you
may know them. It's like you think you know, but
you have no idea. To quote the old VH one slogan.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Talk about when you get into it with certain chefs,
well maybe all chefs they control their world. Oh sure,
and they want to control Oh yeah, what said about
them and how they come off. So have you ever
had conflicts? You don't have to say with who, but

(07:59):
if you want, that's fine. But where they said, you're
not filming that, or don't use that or don't.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yeah, you know, I mean, we're coming from a place
of trust. You know. The first season was the toughest
because you know, Jerry Dreams of Sushi was kind of
a niche film and it hadn't even.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Not to fill, not to fill when you showed it here.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
We screened it. I remember it was incredible and in
your wonderful fuzzy theater it was. Is it still the same, Yeah,
you wilome any time I want to go down I
want to go down there and just like take a
nap in there. Come on, this is so cozy, And
I remember I was, I was a little nervous. You
were showing it to a lot of you know, very
influential and important Jewish people and non Jews as well.

(08:42):
It would be twenty twelve when it came out. That's thirteen.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Isn't that amazing? Oh yeah, I mean you.

Speaker 4 (08:49):
Look exactly the same by the way you're putting the
beard on, just to yeah, you know, you've got a
nice full head of hair.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Please don't refer to me as his beard.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
Smile. David is my bird, David's your beard.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm actually straight.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
That's okay. It's a good thing for you to clarify it.
The more that you say it, the more we believe it.
People need to know exactly exactly. You're also married, though,
I've got nothing to hide.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Okay. Good.

Speaker 4 (09:11):
That was an amazing time. And so yeah, all this
time later, I remember you had the motsa pizza being
could give the Moza oven down there, and I was like,
this is a very passionate person about food. And then
you showed me a clip of you do going to
Russia and doing Raymond in Russia, right, And then seeing
you on camera is that the first time you were
really on camera? And then you were like, oh, I
can do this thing. And then what was it called

(09:34):
before before somebody feeds Phil? It was on PBS. I'll
have what Phil's having off of, kind of like the
Harry met Sally situation, right, I.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Mean we're coming at the topic from different sides. You know,
you're very in depth with the chef and getting a
biography literally of the chef, and I'm just a fan. Yes, really,
I'm right. I'm admittedly and even.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
Proudly a tourist exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
But there's a way to be a tourist absolutely that
I think is important. Yeah, uh yeah. Your show, though,
opened the door for shows for every food related show
on Netflix.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
Well, I think that we I think you take on
you take on the eaters and the audience, like the
audience perspective, like you take the us on the journey
to the restaurant and from the eater side of it. Yeah,
and from also, I love you that your point of
view is so unpretentious and your will you want to
learn and discover. You're not like taking on any errors
of any kind and.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Be a curious tourist exactly.

Speaker 4 (10:34):
Curiosity is I think one of the most important facets
of humanity is like, we're curious and we want to
learn and I think that's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
I have no qualms about revisiting a restaurant that you've
covered on Chef's Table, because now it's how will that
experience be for you to go exactly exactly the regular
person who saw the Chef's Table right at home, and we're.

Speaker 4 (10:56):
Doing the chef experience. What is the chef's point of view,
that journey that took them there, and what they are
trying to tell you with their food and the story
that they're telling. And so we dovetail nicely on the
fabulous Netflix platform.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Well about Netflix, agreed, it is amazing. You are two
of the only people to get this many seasons of
anything in the history of netflik. You know what this means.

Speaker 4 (11:20):
People like food, People like food, people like food, people
like Phil They want to have what he's having. We
are fortunate enough to be the longest running show on
Netflix period, and you know, we've had incredible support from
from Ted and the you know, Netflix establishment has just
been like they've just been so supportive of us because

(11:41):
I think they like the show. And that's been really
really wonderful to have that kind of longevity, to be
an institution and be able to have incredible team members
who know so much about what we do and how
to do it. In fact, we've been there, we're celebrating
ten years now, amazing. And there are young people that
we're we've been hiring in certain new positions and stuff
that have come up watching the show and so they

(12:04):
know acutely what a chef's table episode is. And so
that's just really fun. And Phil, you are no stranger
to having a long running television show and so and
actually I was actually when I was driving over here,
I was wondering, how many of your fans know everything
you've done, like what you've done in television, or do
people kind of know you just as the food guy?

(12:26):
I mean, it's funny and to help the audience, Phil
is an actual television icon. Where are the Emmys? Like,
where is the award show?

Speaker 1 (12:39):
You're sitting on one?

Speaker 4 (12:40):
Okay? Good? Yeah, as a chair stuff. Anyway, I just
want people to know that, you know, Phil Is is
a king, and you know, honestly, he doesn't even have
to make a show if he didn't want to. It's
like truly a labor of love for you. And I
just absolutely am moved by that.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
It's certainly nothing of money.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
It doesn't build Yeah, the documentaries don't necessarily build your
home theater. But it feels good. I mean, you love
to share your experience, and I think that's a big thing.
That's why you have people over to watch the movies
and stuff of your house.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
It's only good if you can share it.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
You know there has to be a generosity of spirit.
This is what I got really from Thomas Keller. This
is not an experience that everyone can have. I would
say it's aspirational to eat at the French laundry, but

(13:35):
there's such a generosity of spirit once you're in. No
one's ever left there going well, that was a rip off, right,
It's an expensive meal, but do you get what you're
paid for beyond? I feel beyond. Before you decided to
film there, I'm sure he treated you to a dinner

(13:55):
so you would understand what eating there was like.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Right, Well, I'll be completely honest. Yeah, and this is
going to be it's difficult to say, but I've eaten
it per se a number of times, you know, from
New York Bouchan many times, ad Hoc many times. I've
never eaten in the French laundry before and right because

(14:19):
I didn't direct that episode. I'm a huge fan of Thomas.
I became aware of Thomas in the behind the scenes
of Ratatui, which is my favorite food film. Ratatu is
just incredible and the message of it is so positive
and it's beautiful, and I think it introduced a lot
of young people to the beauty of fine dining and
what a swing that was for Disney Pixar, for Pixar

(14:43):
to do that, and it's incredible idea by Brad Bird.
It's like you see that on paper, It's like, who
would make that today? You know, who has the courage
to make that other than those same people?

Speaker 2 (14:50):
I hope?

Speaker 1 (14:51):
How do you make a rat?

Speaker 4 (14:53):
A rat lovable and he cooks? The rat is cooking
dinner and got a ghost of that's based on a
famous French chef that created suicide. The whole thing is like, wait,
who's bread?

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Wait? Bred Garrett is the voice of the show.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
Or the voice of the chef. I'm talking about Bernard Bloizeaux,
the famous French chef that it's it's kind of based on.
And it's a magnificent film. So anyway, I see them
behind the scenes of that Thomas Keller is the culinary advisor,
and he makes the beautiful elevated ratitui that the antagonist
critic Anton Ego eats at the end of the film

(15:26):
that then takes him into his childlike joy, like what
is the joy of eating?

Speaker 2 (15:31):
What do we do it for?

Speaker 4 (15:32):
And what are we sharing? It's the story, it's the memory,
it's the connection, and that's the generosity, and that's like
the beauty of it. It's not about how much cavey
are is on your plate, although he can certainly do that.
It's about the emotional connection.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Absolutely, that moment is the best food moment ever in
a movie, I think, and beyond that, it's one of
the best movies in cinematic history, absolutely, because everything we
chase in our lives is about childhood.

Speaker 4 (15:59):
Right right. I remember when when I was shooting the
first episode that I directed of Chef's Table in the
first season, I sent my cinematographer a video of Remy
the rat dancing along the pot making the soup and
the cameras rotating around it, and by DV was like,
that's actually not physically possible to shoot, So I immediately
fired him. And then I'm kidding we figured out our

(16:22):
own way of doing it, but the idea and like
the love of the cooking and everything. And by the way,
our first season dps are still with us. Adam Bricker
and Wilbasanta. You kind of based the style on Zio
and have taken it even further and it's even more beautiful. Anyway,
Ratitui amazing introduced me to the world of Thomas Keller,
and then I was just like completely blown away by him.

(16:46):
By him. We screened Gero Dreams of Sushi at the
Napa Valley Food and Wine Festival, and I had an
amazing lunch at ad Hoc And of course I'm a
huge fan, and so I thought, oh, you know, maybe
I'm in the food world a little bit. I can like,
you know, just kind of sneak in, but I feel
like get into the French laundry. It was a it

(17:08):
was a no. Unfortunately we Uh he didn't nobody there
knew who I was or what I was doing or
anything like that. But I never held it against him.
But I was like, Okay, well, you know, I'm trying
to sneak in on the day and uh, I just
have never I've spent so little time up there that
I haven't had the chance to go, but I've enjoyed
you know, Thomas's cooking at all these other restaurants.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
So if you've done, give me, give.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Me a call. Although we actually I just talked to
him a few days ago, but I didn't ask him.
I'd never had the courage to ask for to go
to French laundry.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
For some reason, he would have you there in a minute.

Speaker 4 (17:39):
I know.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
I don't feel nearly as bad about having never been there.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
No, now that David hasn't been, Yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:45):
How bad did you feel? Were you lying about him? No?

Speaker 2 (17:48):
No, I did not like.

Speaker 4 (17:49):
I did not like I actually, yeah, you're like Frenchly.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
I had the interesting experience of being doing a TV
event that he attempted to cater, which is so not
his thing. It was the Breakthrough Prize is sort of
science and math award show from Silicon Valley at the
NASA base there where I got to watch him cook,
which was good and I got to eat a little bit.

(18:13):
But I have not had the French laundryes.

Speaker 4 (18:15):
What do you mean by attempted in terms of time
to spell the tea on that? Huh?

Speaker 6 (18:21):
No?

Speaker 2 (18:21):
No, I just don't think catering to hundreds of people
is something he seemed that interested in. I think that's
not all right.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
So he he attempted, and he succeeded. He succeeded, and
I got a But he loves math and science.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
I think he liked being around this world and I
loved your legends on him. And but I will say
I have I phyllis representing the people who have a
passion for chefs and restaurants. And even although you're not
a cook, you know you're an appreciator. I'm someone who
loves all foods, clearly. But what I love about Chef's

(18:59):
Table is I realized I love And this is like
with music. I'm sometimes called a musicologist and I'm not.
I really don't. I know very little technically about music,
but I love people who make music. I'm fascinated by
people who make me. What I love about Chef's Table,
and I'm sure this is for a lot a vast
majority of people watching Netflix is I just love these
people when and when they surprised me, Like I was

(19:22):
going back and watched someone who I've an organ I
don't know anything about, and I thought like, oh, like
when the story when you just have like this, he's
a great character, and then you go deeper and find
the pain or the loss that they rebound from, and
like it's like it's a food, it's a show about people.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
Absolutely, I mean that's the whole premise of the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
It's a portrait of an artist.

Speaker 4 (19:47):
Yeah, exactly, it's it's the discovery that we made when
while making Geoor Dreams of Sushi was I thought it
might be about the information, you know, it might be
about the way that they make sushi or the different
styles of making sushi, and and what just felt right
and what I loved about that process of making Jiro
was I really was able to just go follow the

(20:07):
flow of what I felt like because nobody thought the
show movie is gonna be successful there, nobody else had
money in on it, nobody had skin in the game
other than myself and my grandparents and my dad, who
were just hoping that something would come of that tuition
that they spent at USC.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Can we mention who your grandfather and your dad?

Speaker 4 (20:29):
Oh? Absolutely so. My grandfather was the managing editor of
the New York Times. He started as a copy boy,
Arthur Gelb. He kind of created the modern era of
sections in the paper and then administrated it through history
as he kind of like went through all the different
departments of it. You know. He was also the theater critic.
At one point he begain the managing editor and later

(20:53):
the head of the company foundation. And so he started
when he was a teenager and left in his in
his nineties and it was a really or late eighties.
It is really incredible as a kind of recovering journalist.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
He is d a legend. And I had no idea
it was your he you were related until just the
other day, and I was a fan of yours anyway.
But it's so such an amazing having grown up in
a home with getting the New York Times every day,
which I fear there's less and less people who get
a newspaper right every day.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
It's a big deal.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
We need a water on iole one. You gotta hit
a vinegar in that thing and you jee Okay, So

(22:01):
my grandfather big deal in journalism. He has a book
called City Room, which is all about his It's a memoir,
so you can read about his entire journey and how
the Times covered history, and it's really a real incredible
book and from a really cool point of view.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
And then my masage and actually stood up to Tyrant.
There was a time, oh, absolutely when when journalism was.

Speaker 4 (22:21):
Not for sale, absolutely, you know. And it also came
from the integrity of the the Salzburger family who were
willing to do that. And New York Times is like
the last great institution, you know. It's not owned by
a tech billionaire. It's not it has not been compromised
in the way that we're seeing. And other great newspapers
are kind of taking a you know, a path that

(22:43):
they it's a it's a it's a it's a less
it doesn't go with the history of how papers have
been this fourth estate that's kind of stood up to power,
and it's really it's a powerful book to read, especially
in this time. And then my dad is the managing
sorry general manager of the Metropolitan Opera. He was always
been in classical music. He's managed great classical musicians. He's

(23:06):
been a really someone who has kind of like taking
the opera and trying to help it survive in this
modern era, bringing into movie theaters and like all this stuff.
And so these are things that were very inspiring to me.
And if you look at my and my mom is
a recipe chef. She writes the recipes and the cookbooks
for Francis Mallman and other chefs. She's fantastic cook.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, you're the coolest baby, we know.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
Yeah, well it's a high it's a it's a high
end Nepo baby situation from various arts and things. But
I like to be the you know, the mainstream one
as much as I can be, even though we're still
in the niche food world. But you know, the nepooness
comes with you know, it's a double edged sword, right.
So you can see the combination my mom in the
food stuff, and my dad and the fine dining you know,

(23:52):
cooking stuff, food fine dining stuff, and then my grandfather journalism,
and then the opera and the music and like all
these things kind of swirl together. But the thing that
my grandfather said, and this is like kind of like
the inspirational curse of it all, is no matter what
you do, you can do anything you want in the world,
just make sure you're the best at it. And so

(24:14):
that's kind of like, oh, you can do anything you want,
Like how great is that? Make sure you're the best
at it. I don't even know what that means, right,
but it was like kind of like, oh, wow, like
we have to do something important. My dad was has
been very committed to his work and like always pushing
it and he can't even see himself retiring. And then

(24:35):
for myself, I was like, how am I going to
fill the shoes of these guys? Just like Yoshikazu in
Ja Dreams of Sushi, you know, his son is still
working at the restaurant and everybody's like, oh, will he
be able to live up to the expectations. And the
lesson for me was just, you know, just be yourself,

(24:56):
you know, and you don't have to do that, but
you feel that need to. And so you know, I'm
fortunate that I've been able to make them proud. But
I realized that the only way to do something is
to do because that's something you want to do, something
you want to watch, it's you're following. You don't to
please other people with your work.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
It's different though, as a parent to say to your kid,
do the best you can do and be the best
at it. Yeah, which is I mean, it's what do
you mean in the world?

Speaker 4 (25:27):
Yeah, I don't even know what that means, but I
will say yeah, and you know, I gave a ulie.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
That's why I went into prostitution to be the best,
and that's something I'm the best at it.

Speaker 4 (25:36):
You had a knack for it, that's you had a
knack for it. I gave a eulogy, you know, at
this event for my grandfather's passing, and I brought that
up as kind of as a joke, you know, because
we all knew how ambitious he was and everything, and
I talked about, you know, kind of sincerely how it
helped motivate me. And you know, I knew that I
didn't have to be the best. It's like, I took
it as the best I could be. And my granny

(25:57):
was like, you know, he was joking when he said that.
He didn't mean you had to be the best at whatever.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
He was was, here's a therapy.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
Yeah, it's like, here we are, Yeah, so here we are.
Nobody told my dad it was a joke. I don't
think so, Dad. If you're listening, which is definitely not
listening to this, I love you call me.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Oh one thing about he calls me as a filmmaker.
You know, you what you elevated right from the start
was just how a food movie could be artful, Like
the actual directing was exquisite, and I wonder what who
were the influences, Like were there filmmakers growing up grow
up in New York. I grew up in the city

(26:35):
and then in New Jersey across the bridge. But yeah,
I would see so many films because it was such
a privileged thing to be all the theaters in New
York before things were streaming, absolutely to revival houses and
see everything.

Speaker 4 (26:47):
Absolutely. And I'm old enough to have lived a similar
experience in New York, right, I would actually go to
a movie theater and see something yeah, which is great.
And you know, there's no room in the meg multiplexes
for art movies anymore. It seems like it's a you
have to well, but except for in New York. You know,
people who don't live in a major city, they're not
They're gonna have to drive to somewhere to go see

(27:08):
a movie in a movie theater that is not from
a major studio. But for me, I thought I was
going to be I thought that, well, I guess what
I wanted was. I wanted to be like a big
time director, to be the best at the thing. And
I was like, Oh, I want to make like Terminator
or Star Wars or like, you know, I wanted to

(27:28):
make these kind of big, big movies and a horror movie.
I did. I did, which is a separate that's a
separate journey that then circled me back to really really
knowing who I am, learning even more about you know,
who I am and why I make things not for
committee but for myself, you know. So I thought I

(27:49):
was going to do these big things. I went to
USC instead of NYU. I was like, I'm going to
the George Lucas Building, you know, because these that's what
I wanted to watch, was like the Star Wars things.
The idea of documentary came to me when I went
back for a summer break spring break and my friend
took me. I was like, oh, we have to see
this documentary Fog of War. I had never seen a

(28:10):
documentary in a movie theater before. And he's like, no,
this is amazing, and I'm glad. That is my friend,
Tim Rinaldi who took me. He was my friends in
kindergarten and he was like, you know, sophisticated guy takes
me to see the documentary and I was like completely
blown away by it. One. It was an incredible journey

(28:31):
through a character who was seen in one way but
internally was something completely different. And his change, the way
that he changed his point of view, is remarkable.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay, then Robert McNamara for Truck, I haven't seen it.
Just it's an amazing.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
It's it's based on a book by Robert McNamara called
The Fog of War. It's like or the book I
think is like eleven lessons, twelve lessons learned about just
how war is completely it's it is incomprehensible and the
scale of which and everybody is making horrible decisions and
it just like it should not happen. It's just so

(29:08):
unnatural and so awful. And he's lived through, you know,
all these wars and been part of them, and it's
full of like lessons and regret. Essentially, the movie is
shot in a stunningly beautiful I think it's Robert Richardson,
the cinematographer of Oliver Stone, and he shot you know,
kill Bill for Quinton, and like, you know, this guy
is one of the greatest cinematographers. I didn't know that

(29:30):
you could make a documentary feel like a real movie.
You know phil Glass score, and I even licensed some
of the music from that film, yeah, because of obsessed
with Philip Glass. And I was like, wow, this is show.
This is showing me that you can really make a
cinematic documentary. And I had a kind of a set
of skills of like, you know, I could edit, I
could shoot. A new camera had just come out, this

(29:52):
red camera that allowed you to shoot digitally like it
looks like a big movie. And so I kind of
put all those pieces to the other and uh, it
started shooting little tests. I shot Nozawa, our friend Nozawa
in the valley, and you know, I did a little
test with him and he told me that he kicks
people at the restaurant because he's tired, goes to bed late,

(30:14):
wakes up early. It's got no energy for the riff raff,
for the phone people on the phone. Yeah, and he's
just because he's tired. His energy comes from the positivity
of the customers and the complaint you're gone, which I
thought was really interesting. And then that stubborn sushi chef mentality,
plus the cinematic approach and stuff then led to what

(30:34):
became Jero Dreams of Sushi and that's all because of
Fog of War, A big part of it due to
Fog of War. And then that's the big one, right yeah. Yeah,
So as a strong recommend check out Fog of War
for you know, our guests, I mean.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
The class choice of you using that you know later
it's so brilliant because as a musician, like as a
more music oriented person, I'm a huge field class fan,
and I thought, like, that is so perfect in a
film because the repetitive nature of what a chef does
and then the repetitive genius of what Philip Glass sort

(31:10):
of brought to music. It was just perfect and its
beauty and its repetition, and.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
I wish that I had thought that much about it
at the time. It just felt right. But that's the reason.
And also if you listen to philp g last music,
you know, he repeats a refrain, a refrain, a refrain,
and then it changes a little bit. It elevates Jiro's.
The whole idea was you do the same thing every
day and you just like look for that one little
step of improvement.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Yep. And it's hypnotic.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
It is hypnotic and it just totally worked. And then
I use the hours this song, the very depressing song
at the end of the hours and kind of a
hopeful There are tones of darkness and then hope for
you know, because a lot of it's like what is
like the meaning of life? Like what are we doing?
You know, there's a lot of sadness in the movie

(31:59):
in the sense that you know, Jiro committed himself to
doing this craft. He missed his kid's childhood, right, you know,
he would show up at home on a Sunday like it.
You know, he's working late, you know, for the feeding
the businessman and you know, the salary men in Japan
and what and whatnot. And then he comes home and
his son, his younger son, is like, who is this
man in my house? You know, he doesn't even recognize

(32:20):
his own dad. And they say it in the movie
like kind of like it. So it's funny, right, but
you know, there is a sadness to it, and it's
not a coincidence that the two sons went into the
sushi world so they could connect with their father. And
then they're looking at their father and like, am I
going to do things exactly the same way that he
did it or is there room for a balance, you know,

(32:43):
and for all of the you know, the people who
look at you, and also going back to the people
who are inspired by jurgiim Du Sushi like Bob Iiger
for example, wrote about it in his book and he
talks about it at the conferences, and it's kind of
part of the Disney culture. Is this idea of like
a spyiring to do better and better work.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yes, but.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
There is the side of it of where it's like
you also have to have that balance because I think
it's a kind of tragically I would not I want
to do really great work. I don't want to miss
my kids growing up, you know. And so that's one
of the lessons is that you know, you can find
that you can hopefully find that balance, and so there's
a feeling of hope. And then but we do it,

(33:25):
you know, we do the work because we love it
and because we want to aspire to something. Otherwise it's like,
what's the point, you know.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
But by the way, it's also very important that your
kids see that you're doing what you love right absolutely,
and then it means so much to you because the
best thing we can do as parents is not tell
them what to do right, but model the behavior that
is exactly right, because.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
They're telling bullshit completely effective.

Speaker 4 (33:55):
Tell it. You got to live by your value. You
have to buy your value.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
They know it by looking that you're not practicing what
you preach.

Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah, and you know, I travel a lot, but I'm
always know I try not to. I have certain like
rules about not being gone for more than two weeks
at a time, yes, or when I am gone. Also,
I'm including them, like here's where I am, Here's where
I am on the map, and this is what we're doing,
and I'm to bring them I come back. Well I
three and five. Oh, well some time, we're getting Yeah,

(34:25):
we're getting there. They've come on some shoots, but a
lot of the time it's just like it's also fast
that they wouldn't even have time to like adjust to
the time zone yet. But I've taken them to Europe before,
like on a vacation like situation, and they love novel.
They love the idea of it. Yeah, it's great just
to get them used to it.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
And where'd you take them?

Speaker 4 (34:43):
I took them to Paris and to France, sorry, parents,
and France. In Paris and London, and then we went
up to the Cotswolds with a bunch of my wife's
with a bunch of my in laws, in in laws
in laws, and it was really beautiful and they have
a real sense. They're getting a sense of the world.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
You know.

Speaker 4 (35:03):
They love certain foods. They want to go to the country.
They love dumplings and Chinese food, so they want to
go to China. They love Japange, they love sushi like
they're learning to kind of even the three year old.
But the three year old has his own rules too,
because that's the only way you can exercise his own power.
Is like, you know, is only rice, only plain rice?

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Is true with your shows. It is with the Phils.
When I go see your live shows, I'm always shocked
the percentage of little kids who are obsessed with somebody
feed Phil.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, do you have the little kids who are yeah?

Speaker 4 (35:34):
I mean, I don't know how little. We do have
young fans of the show, and we've we've a lot
of people have told us that they watched it as
a kid and that they's led them to want to
become a chef. I think the Phils show. First off,
Phil is very funny and likable, which helps.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
On the show.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
On the show, not he's doing fine, he's doing fine.
In real life. I think that I R. L. Phil
is pretty much the same, which is why the show
works so well, I think. But I love that there
are young kids because it's also a great co viewing
experience with parents. Go on the trip together, see the
see the world, you know, kind of with fill and

(36:11):
then you can a ton of decide, oh, where do
we want to go, get an idea of the world.
And also it's okay to be afraid of some foods.
And that's one of my favorite things is that you know,
when you get some where, you'll try it. You'll try anything.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Just try it, Just try it.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
Which is what I tell my kids is you know
you got like you don't. I'm not going to make
you eat anything you hate.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Just want to try.

Speaker 4 (36:32):
You got to decide for yourself if you like it
or not. And then you take a little nibble and
you don't like it. I'm not going to press the issue.
That's it. But I love all of that, and so
I think that's a good reason to have lots of kids.
We have some young people, but I think we need
like a few more laughs, perhaps and we can get
a few more kids in there.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, I'm happy to do a crossover anytime you want
to do it. Of course, let's go. You're the god
of food Toads.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Just a Netflix Wet Dreams.

Speaker 4 (36:57):
And Netflix, Yeah, and Netflix. And then then they're so,
oh yeah, there's savings in this too, little a little
crossover action.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
So what are you allowed to say what your future

(37:37):
plans are for the series? Like who you have in mind?
Can you tell us?

Speaker 4 (37:42):
Well, I can say that, yes, you can tell us.
So I say yes that there are future plans. I
can say that I don't know what they are yet
because I haven't really decided yet, you know, and we're
still kind of looking at what we want to do
from here. It's like a big milestone kind of moment
of ten years in and we've you know, had the

(38:03):
privilege of surviving all this time.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Have they told you you can run as long as
you want?

Speaker 4 (38:09):
No, No, so you have, but they have done what
they have done. Well, here's the thing about Chef's Table
that's that's interesting. One. It is so closely based on
guor dreams of Sushi that when we were making our
deal and this is back before Netflix even knew that
it was a global platform. We were able to make
a deal that gave me a certain amount of and

(38:31):
by a certain amount, I mean complete control of the
IP with my partners on the show, so that it's
a wonderful partnership with Netflix. No, it's wonderful parnership with Netflix,
and they've been incredibly nurturing and allowing us to even
expand as a brand. We have a new company called
Chef's Table Projects where we're doing the things like the
Art Basal dinner that we talked about, and we have

(38:52):
products coming out and we work very very closely with
Netflix as our as our partners, and we are so
grateful to have had to be home there. And it's
the perfect place because you you are everywhere in the
world at the same time, and that's like the beauty
of it. It's a one stop shop. It's a loud
speaker to the world, and they are so supportive. They

(39:13):
let us cook in a way that I don't think
anybody would and it's it's really wonderful.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
We will You're one of their first programs they ever
were the.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
First unscripted program, original unscripted program and the longest running
show and it's a match honor. We're so honored was on.
It was Orange at the time, Orange was the New Black,
and the House of Cards was standing.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
And Kevin Space show.

Speaker 4 (39:39):
That's right, How's the Cards?

Speaker 2 (39:40):
That's right?

Speaker 1 (39:41):
How the Cards?

Speaker 4 (39:41):
How's the Cards? That was the that was the first
mega Lila Hammer was the first show. Right, So we're
in that origin. We're in that era, you know, as
their first doc series and uh and because they believed
in Giro, they had the numbers on Geo Dreams of
Sushi And I remember you talking on the phone with
you when you're talking about bringing it over from PDS, right,
and I said, yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
I go for it.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Well, PBS canceled us after six episodes.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Right.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
Well, that's why I'm saying it's Netflix has the vision
to allow you to find your audience, which I think
is amazing. And nobody else would even hear the pitch
for Chef's Table even after GIO had come out. But
they had the numbers on Gero and also they had
like Netflix was where documentaries. It became the home for documentaries.
People would watch documentaries on Netflix that had never even
necessarily seen a documentary before.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
And realized how great they're.

Speaker 4 (40:27):
Exactly and that it and that's all testament to you know,
to Ted Sarandos's vision and also Lisa Nishimura at the time,
who was the head of documentaries, and Adam Deldeo is
still there, and they were like, we're going to put
things on, We're going to take a swing, we're gonna
make it a little different. And that's how they differentiated,
differentiated themselves. And now they're not they're they're the number

(40:49):
one streamer except for the youtubes. The youtubes are still
out there.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
And they're huge because free to people.

Speaker 4 (40:57):
It's it's free and it's completely dovetails with the Tiktokie
socially era.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
But they are full shows, full series that are on YouTube.

Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yes, what are they?

Speaker 1 (41:09):
I don't know, but you can know. But you can
find our original six episodes.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
They're still there on the YouTube.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
They're on YouTube.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
My old music videos from high school, I mean from
college or on YouTube. Yeah, my Nozawa short was removed
due to a copyright complaint from Universal Music Group, but
I might still be alive on vimeo. I think you,
I don't know, if you've ever seen that.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
You'd like love it?

Speaker 2 (41:35):
What were your earliest music videos.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
Oh god, I was not a great I was a
music video director that should have been working in the
mid nineties, I think. And uh so I did one.
I did a music video for Cretnas what's his name,
John Fogerty, Yes, correct, oh wow, with for the John Fogerty.
And we shot it on a cool cowboy ranch and

(41:58):
it was it was fun. It was like it was
shot in like a big budget movie from nineteen ninety six.
It looked like that, and I got light rays coming
through and he's singing the song and it was really
really fun. But I've realized that music video is not
for me because it's too collaborative. And oh you know what,
we can circle all the way back to your early
question about dealing with chefs who are directors themselves, is that,

(42:20):
really my good work only comes from when I can
truly follow my instincts, and then when I enabled my
team members to be able to follow their instincts, and
I blaze the path and I make room for them.
So people like Brian McGinn and Danny O'Malley our lead
story producer, and Brian is like the show runner executive producer,
and then we have Clay Jeter, who's directed many of

(42:42):
our episodes. You know, my greatest contribution now is making
room for them to be able to thrive in that
same kind of creative space. So that's if I'm making
it for somebody else, and that's what happened with the
horror movie. He was like, I got a great cast
and it was all very cool, but I was still
like making a product, you know, and that's not really

(43:02):
a great environment for me. So the music videos doesn't
really work because you have to collaborate with the artists
and the record label and all that stuff, and you're
not getting paid. So in a commercial like I've done
a ton of work with Apple, and first off, my
tastes and apples are together in a lot of ways,
and that was easier to do. But also the music

(43:23):
video business does not pay like it did in the nineties,
which I was not working then, so that became a
difficult combination to make a living anyway. Chefs are directors.
They don't want to be directed, they don't want to
be told what to do. Necessarily, we have to earn
that respect through first year or Dreams of Sushi to
get the first season. Chefs involved and we have to

(43:45):
show them the movie and get people to call them
and tell them that this is worth doing. Because we're
going in for ten days. We're invading their lives. We're
asking very personal questions. You know, how long do you
spend at a restaurant When you go in and.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Do a shoot, it's almost real time, so you're only.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
There for a couple hours. So that's like an affordable
amount of time for them to give up, you know,
for the benefit.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
And if they sometimes, well, they will film during service exactly,
and so we're not interrupting anything.

Speaker 4 (44:11):
We also film during service, but with heavier gear and
for a long time, and we're all up in the kitchen.
We really like their entire kitchen. We relight their dining room,
We have robotic camera tracks and things, we do all
kinds of stuff.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
You're making a feature film and we're doing.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
A big investment on it. Yes, So a couple of
things happen. One, they see what has it's done for
chefs before them too. They see the investment that we're
putting into it, you know, they see the passion that
we are putting into what we're doing. There's no holding
back on anything. Just you're You're not.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
There to show them as a bad chefy're picking them.
That's why we're there of them.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
Yeah, we're there because we believe you have something that
we want to share with the world, and we want
to be it's only possible. We want to shine a
light on that and so that that trust is established
and we can also figure out early if we're going
to be able to work together or not.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
And have you ever pulled a plug when you know?

Speaker 2 (45:09):
No, no, no, but we have.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
We had a chef, the only chef that's really turned
us down out right, they're they're too okay. It's Totoraku
chef you know the secret right restaurant chef Kaz. He's amazing,
amazing chef, wonderful. We talked the attention, you were talking
about doing it. His wife said no because after Bourdain
came it was a ship show outside. We don't want
to deal with that anymore. He didn't use those words exactly,

(45:30):
but he was like, I live a good life and
I don't want to, you know, deal with all that.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
J FI.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
In Bangkok, she gave the Michelin star back. She called them,
the line is too long. I'm too old for this.
I don't want could you take the star back?

Speaker 4 (45:48):
I love that. Yeah, she's such a boss. I love
her the coolest, right, Yeah, but we really blew her
up on the show. So they see that. There's a benefit.
We also have in our contract that they can't change

(46:09):
anything that we have full control, of course, except for
like if we make a mistake like an egregious factual error,
we can change it, yes, but they have to trust us. Yes,
And so that's just there.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
You're letting them see the cut before it airs.

Speaker 4 (46:23):
We show it to them as a courtesy, but not
for notes, you know what I'm saying. They can watch
it to make sure there's nothing wrong with it.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
But I'm sure something they don't like. They're gonna call you,
no matter they can give milter and I say sorry.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
No, I don't say sorry. I say thank you for
telling me, okay, And I hear you and I see you,
and then I do what I like, what we have
to do, what is right for the show, because again,
if I'm making things different for them, yes, it's gonna
make the thing worse. And there have been like some
dicey moments, you know, and you can talk. I'll give
you the my favorite one is because he's one of
my best friends and you know he uh, we've been

(46:57):
through a good deal of stuff to get is Masimo Botura,
who is, first off, he's Italian, so you know he's uh,
you know, tough. He's got a lot of thoughts and opinions,
you know, your vocal about them.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
He has become friends too, and he's a magical.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
Magical human who is extremely passionate, right, and he has
this very strong point of view of what he was episode.
That was the first episode we did. The first episode
that was shot was Ben Shuri in Australia, and then
shortly after I directed the uh what's it called the
Masama Buttory episode and that was the first first one

(47:33):
that it was the lead off. I mean they all
air at the same time, so that was like the
number one, the first one. If you watch it in order,
it is great. And you know, we chose that because
he's so passionate. It's a great family story. It embodies
all the things that Chef's Table is about, which is
the human journey and discovering you know what we're really
doing it for, Like why are we doing this?

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Can we I just want to pause for a second.
Roll the clip to say that that opening minute or two,
can you tell people, because I want people if they
haven't watched Chef's Table in general and this episode in particular,
this is what hooked you immediately?

Speaker 4 (48:13):
Is this story okay, so cold open, with no context whatsoever. Yep, Massimo,
something just starts, starts telling about an earthquake, hits earthquake,
hits Modna, and it's a disaster, big earthquake, and there
is a huge disaster, especially for cheese, because that's where

(48:37):
that's where they make the parmesano reggiano, the king of cheese,
the real cheese. A parmesano reggiano can only be made
in Emelia Romana. Anything else is parmesan or something else.
You know, it has to be stamped. It's real. So
much cheese was lost in this earthquake that it created
a real crisis.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
It was damaged, The.

Speaker 4 (48:57):
Cheeses were damaged, and what are we gonna do with
all they He couldn't sell the whole wheels anymore. So
in the conventional thought is that it's lost. But what
Masimo figured out is that we're going to create a
movement where we can use the cheese in the risotto.
So he makes is that that and make sure I'm
remembering this property, that's right. Yeah, So he's making the
special Parmersano Regiano risotto that then he is publicizing as

(49:23):
a beacon to like, get these blocks at the pieces
of cheese, get whatever you can and you can make
it into something beautiful. And he rallied the chefs, the
chefs of the world, everybody to make this risotto and
then people are sending in their own picture of their
own rosotto, and it becomes this movement out of the earthquake,
and he's showing how food is transformative, how food is
a way to mobilize people and to send a message,

(49:45):
and it makes a disaster relief exactly from cheese exactly.
So he saved the cheese. He shaved the cheese business.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
And that's just the opening of it.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
And that's the first minute. And then we go and
show yeah, and so that's the whole thing is that
we wanted to hook people in a way that just
show like this is not your normal food shoo.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
What is your praise? Italy wins in many ways. What's
funny is that even chef wise, like I just rewatched Dario,
I don't want to Michigan. What a character. Not only
do I like Italian food more than another cuisine, but
the chefs are just amazing, huge personalities.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Wonderful personalities, Yes, wonderful.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
And he comes out with his little trumpet and like
he's a blast.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
But I mean, you're finding the best stories. That's really
what it is. It's all storytelling. Everything we do with
storytelling about passionate people. That's the Grandacket story.

Speaker 4 (50:34):
You know.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
I haven't talked to him for years about doing something
with that story, and then Chef's Table came out and
it's like you you just had him tell it there.
There can't be anything better than that. There could be
a dramatization of it, but it's not as good as
him and his people and his best friend talking about
saving his life.

Speaker 4 (50:53):
Yeah, and it's a great story and you know it's real.
It's really happening. And that's like the magic kind of
a documentary is that if you can bring those cinematic
tools to bear and really like help people think that
the documentary part kind of fades away and you're just
watching a movie. You're watching it that each state that
is completely real, you know, And that's what We're going.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
For absolutely hits you harder because you know it's real. Yeah,
it is fantastic. I want people to watch that one too.
Do you have a favorite episode that you think exemplifies
the series?

Speaker 4 (51:24):
Yeah, I mean I think that for me, the favorites,
I mean, I don't like to play favorites, but I will.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:34):
I mean, it's the one first of all, to be
the best story. We get very attached to the ones
that we direct, and because we formed this strong bond. Yeah,
you know so, Masamabatura very important. The diceiness of it
was that, you know, we had to build this trust.
I came in and I asked his Immediately, it was like, okay,
I'm gonna start laying down this bio story telling me
about your father. And he's like, hmm, walk out on
the interview, and then we had to rebuild it.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
He walked out because you asked him about his father.

Speaker 4 (51:58):
Yeah, because I was like, oh, clearly my be something here,
of course not taken. Okay, what am I going to
do with this? What am I gonna tell Netflix? We
just spent eight hundred thousand dollars and he walked out
of the first day. It's Okay, we bought we got
him back thanks to Lara kind of helped smooth it over.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
But you know, we learned.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
I learned a big lesson about you know, you can't just.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Go in and uh no, one wants to feel so yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
But also like you ask people about their parents, like
that's like can be very loaded, Like you have to
be careful and build the trust and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Anyway, did you know there was a story they're going in?

Speaker 4 (52:27):
Well, there always is a story. There's always a story,
especially for an Italian, there's always a story about that.
Of course there is, of course there is. Everybody's story
has to do with their parents, by the way, that's
where I go. That's where I go for everybody. So
first start with a little small, little trust, and then
you go in and then I'll ask you about your
mother and I'll mention, yeah, well you seem like your
parents you bring into your story a lot because you're

(52:47):
still looking for their validation and have you gotten it?

Speaker 1 (52:52):
They passed a few years ago, but I'm still working I.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Think the dell.

Speaker 4 (52:54):
Sorry, but I liked it when you you zuomed them
on the that was my favorite part. That was beautiful.
Thanks I'm so sorry, thank you.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
No, no, they passed, but we're going to memorialize them
in a diner on large mon Bulevard.

Speaker 4 (53:05):
Oh that's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
We have just a few blocks, a few stores down
for large one.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
I love that. I love that. Yeah, yeah, man, I'm
sorry here.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
That's okay. Where so Masimo, you'd say that was the
one that was.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
The tough on Anyway, my favorites Massimo because that's I
kind of like set. They had all the things in
the show that I liked. It had the feelings, and
it had the fun of the charisma of the character
and the wacky food stories and six totalini on the
plate and critics going nuts, and all the drama and
his character and his character and then like finding a
moment of peace and listening to music and looking at
the photo album and all the love story with Laura.

(53:42):
It's all just like fantastic. I mean, it's like a movie.
And we've gotten countless opportunity or invitations like, oh, you
want to make this into a movie, Like, I don't
know how to do it better than.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Than the real thing.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
He doesn't who would play him better than himself?

Speaker 1 (53:56):
It's no one.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
Then people love and I love and I've known for
a long time Francis Moulman episode, which the opening of
that one is he's in a boat and he's just
like talking in the boat. He's the he's grilling in
the boat, and then assistant runs him a glass of
wine in the boat, and like, this is a man
who lives the way he wants and he is completely
comfortable with himself and secure with himself, and you're seeing beautiful.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Beautiful character in anique part of the world.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (54:23):
And then my other favorite one, and it kind of
marked a turning point in the trajectory of the show
where it used to be all fine dining in the
first two seasons and then we kind of take this
turn in season three with Jung Kwan, the Buddhist nun
that was gorgeous thing who right off the bat says,
you know, I'm not a chef. You know, I'm a monk,

(54:43):
and she is just herself and it's a very kind
of spiritual. It's a slower paced episode and that I
wanted to create like the meditative kind of feeling of
it with a very strong story, you know, and a
story about her and her father and kind of her
deciding to do a different lifestyle than her family and
becoming this Buddhist nun, you know, living in the mountains,

(55:06):
and the ancestral history of fermentation and just the experience
of shooting that was really meaningful.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
So gorgeous episode.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
You just watch that.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
How did she deal with the aftermath of being famous.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
She's used it the way that a superhero would use
their powers in the right way. You know, she has
been traveling the world spreading her kind of message about
you know, like be mindful, be grateful for the things
around you, and like look at things around you, and like,
you know, don't take things for granted. Eat slowly. You know.

(55:39):
She brings her fermentation fermented like what's it called the
gocha cheng and the you know, various sauces and she
has incredible soy sauce and things and spreads this idea
of the temple food and the flavors of that, which
are amazing because you know, I'm not a vegan, but
you can see how it can be delicious when you
use these kinds of like Korean techniques and such, just

(56:02):
temple food techniques. And so she's just wonderful. She's an
incredible sense of humor. We're always laughing on set. It
wasn't like so somber, you know, it's just very very funny.
She does great exercises which are really funny. And then
the moving story about how you know she when her
father came ill, he came and visited the monastery and
he took she took care of him and made him

(56:22):
very special mushroom. That was like one of her signature dishes,
the soy sauce marinated mushroom. And it's like, you know,
it brought me to tears just hearing it.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
I think what we're saying is food is not just
about food, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
I mean, that's that's the whole thing. And so we
realized it's not just about like the fine dining experience.
Any chef that is passionate about what they do has
a story to tell could potentially be on chef's table.
And it led us. You know, that's when we did
Ivan Ork and it's ramen, you know, but it's ramen
with a story and with meaning and with feeling and heart.

(56:57):
And then we did we went on to do that
a spinoff series called street Food right where these we
have incredible street vendors with great stories and histories, and
they are passionate about what they do. What is the reason?
You know, it's like unraveling what. It's not about just
how they cook, it's like why why do they do it?
There's so many easier paths in life than to be

(57:18):
a cook. You know, they do it because they're nurturing.
And then Thomas Keller articulates it so well. They care.
They want to nurture people. They want to create a
place where you can feel at home and you can
feel taken care of, and and restaurants and whether whether
we're at French laundry or if you're at a stall,

(57:38):
you know, in in uh Yoga Karta, Indonesia, you know,
these are the passion is a shared thing. And that's
part of what makes humanity so amazing, is our curiosity
as a species. Like humans, we have all you know,
we're very different, and we celebrate our unique kind of
differences and cultures and all these things. But a lot
of what we're doing is the same, just with you know,

(58:00):
different flavors. We're all just trying to like connect, to nurture,
to share something, and to be passionate about things. And
I think that's really beautiful.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Growing up in New York. Do you have a first
meal that is like your your most memorable childhood meal.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
I think that the most memorable meal for meal for me,
and it's one of my last memories of my parents
being together in the same room is uh, it's the
it's the they would make a coat to buff. It's
kind of it's actually the meal is inspired by Ami
Louis in Paris, and it's a it's a coat to buff,

(58:37):
thinly sliced with the uh sauteyed potatoes that are you know, boiled,
carefully cubed, And in Ami Louis they actually kind of
come as like a puck sort of, but here, you know,
they're into the They cube boil and then cube the
potatoes almost perfectly, and then sautee them in garlic and

(58:59):
time and and uh it's just like perfectly brown on
all sides and then dry it and it's like the
most perfect potato.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
I always get the chicken there.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
Yeah, the chicken is very good too, but the coach
of boff is great. I love the foagra and stuff also.
But this memory of like that that steak, that potato
and that just a simple salad, you know, simple, like
like like a leafy salad crunchy with tomato and it
and and it just reminds me of a warm place

(59:29):
where I was like, you know, love is like real
and you know it exists. And then I also had
the privilege of going there. My dad would take me
there when we would go to Rancy. He would take
me along on his jobs and stuff. Yeah, and eating there.
It's just like the connection of that simple thing. It's
something beautiful and simple done really really.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Well, elevated to the best. Yeah, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 4 (59:51):
It's the dry over a roast trees associated yeah, the
crying over the roast chicken.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
And and and the potato gilette and the hemone and
the they're all the best of that thing, I exactly.
But by the way, I feel that way kind of
about Peter Luger's.

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Oh sure, absolutely, where it's just what is the joy thing?
You got butter, and you got the steak, and.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
You got salt amazing and what else do you need?
But then the tomato and onions exactly so simple. The
ice cream Sunday these are like somebody opened the encyclopedia
and that that's the picture.

Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
That's a stat Yeah. I mean, totally, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
I love it so much.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
That's the dream?

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Is Wolfgang your movie?

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Because Wolfgang we had him on the show and we
and I remember that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
The night before to promote it, and that's a great doctor.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
That just again, he's such an icon and a business
success story that people talk about the humanity of him
and his story and what motivated him.

Speaker 4 (01:00:47):
Legs we already did him. That was that, but that
movie proved to us that legends could work. Yes, you know,
Wolfgang is somebody that I have always like, loved, loved
just as a celebrity. I mean, he really is like
the first celebrity chef, like who really was just like
a real TV star and somebody could really really cook.

(01:01:09):
I mean that guy could cook. And you spent a
lot of time in LA.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
He's underrated, He's actually underrating.

Speaker 4 (01:01:13):
I completely agree with that. I could agree with that
people see.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Him as a celebrity chef, right, But one of the
things your documentary helped to do was tell people, oh, no, no, no,
this is a world class chew.

Speaker 4 (01:01:23):
This guy is always remarkable talent, to the point where
he was a new kid at Beaumoniere, a famous three
star restaurant, and he got elevated to the saucier. And
because his taste, he understood taste and flavor. And he's
a communicator and a storyteller and he's absolutely wonderful. And
you know, I love going to Spago. And the great

(01:01:43):
thing about him also is that he goes to the
restaurants all the time. He's always like running the circuit
of his restaurants. You can sit and have a glass
of wine with him and chat and he's just like
a pal who is also a fantastic chef. And that
made me feel really special. When I was a kid,
my dad took me there with his like agent buddies
and stuff, and he would come around to the table

(01:02:05):
and or I'd order the Venus nets own and he goes,
oh you got the vener Snets? Are you Austrian? And
I was like, oh my god. He sees me, He
sees me. He goes to every table. He goes to
Tom Cruise's table last, because he knows Tom can handle
handle it. He'll go to every single table. Everybody special.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
He's the star in the rest.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
It makes everybody feel special. Yes, and I think it's beautiful.
And so that was something that was like stuck with
me at the chef's being a fantastic interesting character.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
I asked Keller what the most if he had any
advice for me opening a diner, what is the most
important element? And you know what he said, the service,
the hospitality, especially in a diner, free refill on the coffee, hud.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Now, we want to make the food absolutely delicious, the
best version of diner food you ever had. Right. But
the way you can make people will feel special is human.
It's human connection. And that's what these geniuses have. Yes,
that ability. Massimo has it, Yeah, Wolfgang has it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
Yeah. And there's one thing also, you know, because there
is this kind of era of no substitutions allowed. Of course, however,
in some environments, like for example, when Wolfgang was like
running Spago and like Sunset, you know, everybody kind of
had their own little tweaks yea to the thing. You know,
that's one of the things that makes you feel like
you're at home. I wonder if in your diner, if

(01:03:34):
you're going to allow people to tweak a thing or
two and make it to their specification. And I'm not
saying like I'm not saying like Danny DeVito and gets
shorty where he's like has like you know, you know,
the whole of the famous scene where he's like talking
about his omelet but allowing people to kind of have
it their way, just like a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Well, we're not going to have a huge menu, so
there is room for that, right, right, right, But we
can't have everything.

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
In fact, whatever you have gonna make like T shirts
like hold the sauce and acts of course, that kind
of stuff, why not makes it feel makes it feel special.
And then that you and then that you also have
people going around saying you need more coffee hunt of course.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
And there's only two kinds of coffee in the diner.
There's red pot and blue.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
Love that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
That's it. That's regular.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
I love.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
If you want a cappuccino or an espresso or or latte,
go up the street. There's seven other coffeeh I love that. Yeah,
you're gonna have a U pastrami. Yeah, in fact, uh
pastrami hash pastrami rubin. It's gonna be nice. It's gonna
be nice. I love that. We Uh, we live in
a good sandwich town. We live in a good pizza town.

(01:04:39):
Now can you believe it?

Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
Well, yeah, you made it that way. Okay, here's the
other thing. I'm gonna go ahead and got that feel
a little bit more. Phil is a big reason that
the LA food scene has come a long way, inspired
by Wolfgang. But you know, you kind of create a
help create a platform for in my night and Nancy
and and and motes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
Just an investor, but I but that's important because my
family supports the arts. Yes, so this is one of
the arts. Yeah, it's my favorite. Yeah, because it incorporates
all the sense. Yeah right, yeah, and so yes, I've
been an investor, but this diner is the first thing
that I'm doing from the ground.

Speaker 4 (01:05:16):
So you're going to operate it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Are you going to be It's as much as I can,
By the way. You know why I'm going to be
there because I want to eat there.

Speaker 4 (01:05:23):
Yes, that you have. That's gonna be great.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
But you have to make it so exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
You have to.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
It has to be a place you'd want to eat, right.
Have you ever thought of opening a restaurant or being involved?

Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
I have thought, Well, I think I know too much, Phil,
I've seen too much of the risk and the drama
and terror.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Well it's a stupid investment.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
Yeah, yeah, And I'm already in documentaries, so it's already
if I can double down on that. The thing about
the restaurant tour that is I'm so impressed with, and
one of the reasons that I'm just like in awe
of them is so we make a movie, we make
an episode show whatever hard work, we do the best

(01:06:03):
we can a lot of moving pieces. If we can
get a distributed to get it put out somewhere like wow,
we're like lucky that that worked out right and that happened,
then we can move on to the next thing. The chef,
you know, they go through all the same ship to
make their restaurant and it's got to go every day
forever until they until as long as they can run it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
You know, longevity a young person's game, because it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Is which Thomas Ruler really was dealing with all that
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
It's grilling.

Speaker 4 (01:06:34):
It's absolutely grueling, and one bad hit of shellfish, like
one bad review can destroy it and all the people
that work there and everybody can be comprote fucked and
one thing goes wrong. I mean even like a Broadway show,
it's like okay, somebody forgets a lie and like, yeah,
that's funny. Like people are trusting you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
In a way. Times comes opening night, they don't like
your show, and I.

Speaker 4 (01:06:57):
Think that the actually, actually you should. It used to
be that I did a whole thing on air. I
don't know if you know Jordan Oakan and the Air
Jordan podcast. It was just on air. Jordan and I
had to set the record on a couple of things
that they had been, you know, talking about and regarding
an article. But it's just about the power of criticism
and how important what the responsibility and power of a

(01:07:20):
critic is and what they should be using that power.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
For well, Jonathan Gold was the best because yeah, he
only focused on things he liked, such a lesson.

Speaker 4 (01:07:30):
Yeah, because you should elevate the things are great.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Plus it's only one guy's opinion. Why ruin someone's livelihood?
I know why ruined their business? And I don't show
a restaurant that I don't like.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
You go there, you don't like it, like I'm not
going to make a takedown, of course, and it's because
why and who has But you know it's it's as
Anton Ego go back to write it too. Yes, as
Anton Ego says, you know, because he has an epiphany
when he he's ready to go shut this restaurant down.
He's like, everybody's saying this restaurant's good, Like, it's not
good enough for me. I want to show them something.
I'm going to go show him something that this Linguini

(01:08:04):
guy ain't got it. And he tastes the ratitude and
it takes him to this emotional place because it's simple
and it's completely under beautifully executed, simple peasant food but
done in this beautiful TK style Thomas Keller, and he
realizes that at the end, he's like, wow, you know,
bad criticism is fun to write and it's fun to read,

(01:08:28):
but there's so much more that we could be using
our powers for and.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
Pay does nothing to add.

Speaker 4 (01:08:34):
What do we add to the world because we don't
The critic doesn't have the skin in the game, you know,
And it's like, what can we be doing. We could
be shining a light on the things that we love.
And I think that's really where criticism is great. And
I think that you can and I know that as
a as a showrunner and somebody who's worked with a
lot of creative people. When you started, when you do

(01:08:54):
have a note, you open with what you like, you
start with the thing you like about it, of course,
and then you can kind of like if you have
a suggestion or something that you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Could only to uplift, it's only making a better lift.

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
But you're not there to like, damn the place. And
that is something that chefs are in peril of, especially
in our clickbaity age where the newspapers and this goes
back to this problem of journalism. They were running on ads. Here,
we're running on clicks. We're running on the numbers game
and to say snappy or more entertaining the writing is

(01:09:25):
the feedback is that, and the editorial power is getting
lesser and lesser.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
And lesser, and they'll create a conflict where there is correct.

Speaker 4 (01:09:31):
So then we're looking for trouble just to create the clicks.
And that's a big problem. And chefs live and that
live with that peril with everything on the line every
day and their staff and well being of their people.
They have to do this every single night. And so
I just have so much respect for them, and I
think they need to be treated with the respect that
that deserves. And you don't have to love it, but
you shouldn't be taking people down for the sake of entertainment.

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
It's important and how would you like it? By the way,
well I've gotten great. No, I'm saying, how would you
you the person going to take down the person? How
would you like it?

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Of course, one of the best things for me was
a former rock critic, is to realize, fortunately I think
I was as a rule, I tried like to stand
up for the things I loved right, and so I
have spent my the last like twenty five years in
TV working with a lot of those artists who and
having them express the appreciation. The only thing I'm ashamed
of is a few swipes I took just to get

(01:10:23):
a laugh, and it's it's it's it's remarkable to see
the impact.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
And yeah, yep, the things you've said about me are horrible.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
The only reason this podcast this is my review of
Everyone Loves First. Oh yeah, that's how you love it?
I literally really I reviewed a whole season of TV
and it was like not really, not really, and then
ended with Raymond because it was magical.

Speaker 4 (01:10:50):
Just like, oh, I thought, you guys, I'm reconciled after
a review.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
No, no, he The reason I'm even here with him
is because he wrote a beautiful review of Raymond, and
I call him to thank him and say, let's let's see.

Speaker 4 (01:11:04):
There we go, and then a friendship is born.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Thirty years ago.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
That's beautiful. Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
Yeah, really nice.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
And that's how it became his beard.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
David. I can't tell you how much I loved having
you here today, because you know, I got a fewel
we got it even closer. And I just have such
admiration and respect for your achievement in the in the
world of documentary and food. And I wouldn't be here
without you. I wouldn't have my lovely life and show

(01:11:38):
without chef's table leading the way. So thanks for the
good life.

Speaker 4 (01:11:43):
Well, thank you. I mean I think that I at
least the part where you get to travel and eat.
I think the rest of it you took care of
nicely for yourself. I don't know if anybody's seen this show.
It's called Everybody Loves Raining. It's in heavy syndication, and
it's a it's I mean, it's an institution. I mean,
you're like the You're the other Larry David. Is that
fair helm I'm going to edit out? Wait is Larry

(01:12:04):
David the other? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
Wait?

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
No, do you want to rewind.

Speaker 4 (01:12:06):
You want to take that back, let's roll the clip.
That's roll the clip.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
My show would be why curb your enthusiasm?

Speaker 4 (01:12:13):
No, it's exactly. I mean I felt like it is
like your curb. It is like your curb, but it's
like a. It's a it's a happier curb. It's a
because you live a joyful existence.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
I think, uh, that's why we're That's why he cast
me in his show to be a foil for now.

Speaker 4 (01:12:29):
Of course, yes, yes, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
I love that. So he he I loved it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
He understood what the difference was.

Speaker 4 (01:12:35):
Yeah, it's like, oh he's so positive.

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
Well he's so funny. But yeah, yeah, I loved having
you come again.

Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
Okay anytime.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
And there's more sandwiches where they came.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
And if you need a Dave, you know, if you
just swap a Dave every now and then, you know,
here for you, I got you excellent. You know, I'm
not trying to run you out of business, but I
like it here. I like the free lunch. I like
the vibe.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
That's why David Daves.

Speaker 4 (01:12:56):
You could do a couple of Daves whatever you need,
but it's always an honor and I always love I
love hanging out Phil, so too. Pleasure to see you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Thanks, thank you, Thank you, David.

Speaker 4 (01:13:04):
They've killed everybody.

Speaker 6 (01:13:06):
Naked Lunch is a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and David Wilde.
Theme song and music by Brad Paisley, Produced by Will
Sterling and Ryan Tillotson, with video editing by Daniel Ferrara
and motion graphics by Ali Ahmed. Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal,
David Wilde, and our consulting journalist is Pamela Chella. If
you enjoyed the show, share it with a friend, But
if you can't take my word for it, take Phil's.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
And don't forget to leave a good rating and review.
We like five stars.

Speaker 6 (01:13:31):
You know, thanks for listening to Naked Lunch, a Lucky
Bastard's production.

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