Hanson

This episode will put an "MMMBop" in your step and lots of brotherly love in your heart. Phil and David enjoy a long-distance Zoom "Lunch" with Isaac, Taylor and Zac Hanson who were home in Tusla, Oklahoma. David retraces the beginnings of his long relationship with the Brothers Hanson which led to the group's first national TV appearance ever. It's a great conversation about harmony, independence, music, food and life. To order Hanson's upcoming "Underneath Complete Vinyl," go here. To learn more about building community through food and "Somebody Feed the People," visit the Philanthropy page at philrosenthalworld.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
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(00:27):
Phil hmm bamm oh, Hi,David, Hi, that's the worst version
of them, Bob, I've everheard. And now we're going to talk
to the people who did the bestversions a few of them and a life
of music that I am so proudto have played the littlest part in that
I know they don't remember, butI'm going to remind them that I helped

(00:49):
put a little bop in their own. Ladies and gentlemen, three brothers I
love admire whose body of work Ithink we should all investigate and all celebrate
handsome. Let's build the beans,chew the fat, food for thought and

(01:15):
jokes on tap, talking with ourmouthsfull, having fun. Peace, of
cake and Humble Pies, serving upslice live. Leave the dressing on the
side. It's naked, lush clothingoptional until I d oh I find it.

(02:01):
Phil, This is Phil, MeetHansen, Phil, meet you gentlemen.
Uh and I I think I wassort of explaining to these guys that,
like, I don't even know howmuch you know this, but I
have such a whether or not youknow it, I have a very meaningful
relationship with you. I I loveHanson. I I feel like I'm an
og Hansen fan. And I don'tknow if you know this story. If

(02:24):
you remember, do you remember howwe met. It's the very first time
it was it was it storytellers,and I remember it. It goes that
far back. It's earlier. It'searlier than that. Okay, here's the
here's the story. It's David.Is this are we on? Is this
is? This? Is? Thisis a podcast for better We were actually

(02:45):
filming you when you woke up thisroom, say naked with Hansen. So
have a long naked segment. Thisis the lunch part. We like to
build that. Oh, by theway, we should explain you were having
pizza, which you may or maynot like. This. I was trying
to think what would be appropriate becausewe generally eat at our during the show,

(03:07):
we got pizza from Delicious Vinyl,where you were the producer, one
of the producers of their first record. Now is in the pizza game.
Yes, did you know that?No? No, Mike, Mike,
Mike Simpson from The Dust Brothers isone of the owners of Delicious Pizza Now

(03:28):
and Phil and I got invited.You got invited by Mike to have pizza
there years ago, so I said, let's go have whether or not you
liked him or have any fun.Mike is lovely and was always kind of
a foodie, so it makes sense. Always he was the first person I
saw and I have a distinct pictureof I really love coffee, and especially

(03:51):
as a young kid. I thinkI discovered it before it was healthy and
it's still it's still unhealthy, learningto drink watching him make an iced latte
in at the house for the DustBrothers House and not you know, ice
coffee generally was still kind of findingits place. I mean, this is
late nineties, so this is youknow, still coffee, and it was

(04:12):
just it was it was it wasan espresso in a cup, a bunch
of ice and then cream over thetop, just straight, you know,
quick and dirty, and I thoughtthat is so strange, and then I'm
so intrigued, and he's got acoffee safe. Yeah, I thank Mike
for that. So you guys,you guys are in Tulsa right right now.

(04:33):
So how's the food seene there?But it's in's decent, I mean
yeah, for what it is.I mean it's a lot OF's a lot
of what's happening all over the country. You've seen in Tulsa, which has
got people of our generation, themillennial, you know pluses that like downtown,
why is it boarded up? Literallyboarded up? Because our parents generation
scattered and you know the guys thatcould bought buildings, ye sat on them.

(04:57):
You know. Over all of thecountry we saw this right there,
been just comploye because the urban kindof collapsed and then it became a highly
uh highly invested with less than ideal. Yeah, it was all like it's
like ye okay, it's liquor storesand it's you know kind of city whatever.
So they just shut everything down andso our generation kind of came back.
We made a very distinct decision.We're here at this twenty year mark,
there's an alignment with this food decisionand what staying with us is.

(05:20):
We made a decision to sort ofreinvest in the hay let's be in Tulsa.
If we're not going to just move, We're not just going to go
to Lla New York like were ready. We had been in LA and New
York a ton and lived there andbecause yeah, we started labor years.
Yeah, but we just kind ofsay, well, we're gonna either pay
taxes here and just kind of beinvisible, or we're going to get involved.
Let's be a part. So wehow we kind of came downtown in

(05:42):
a neighborhood that now I mean wehave our studio, our warehouse, kind
of everything in one main spot.But I mean there were you know,
it was like a bad Mexican placethat is bad good. You know,
it's like just kind of like veryMexicana American Mexican and then just nothing pretty
much. Now there's great coffee,there's a there's a speakeasy with a you
know, a seventy five dollars steakthat you can do exactly. Yes,

(06:06):
a lot of bars, you knowa lot of a bunch of great like
bakeries, and there's a really greatvegan place, and like Mediterranean and all
kinds of stuff. So Oklahoma,you gotta stick with what's natural. To
hear. So Mexican food is great, yes, and meat, yeah,
meat, that's it. I mean, like the ranchers and so that's that's

(06:28):
what our best at our core.Man, it's our best stuff. But
by the way, but get greatMexican food, and then the other stuff
is yeah, you gotta find it. You gotta find it. I mean,
you know, we have good sushiplaces, but it's no nobu,
you know what I mean. Butyou're stuck with you stuck with where you're
from. It's beautiful and you've reinvestedback into the community. By the way,

(06:48):
between your three families, I thinkyou're half the population of we have
a community. How many kids betweentwo generations from now? I think we
could argue for a county yees?Yeah? How many kids between you?
Now? So I have seven,Zach has five, and I has three.
Yeah, and then we're we arethe three oldest of seven kids.
Now all of our siblings have atleast a child, and most every speaks

(07:13):
that have three. There's about twentysix grandkids you know right now? Yeah?
Wow, and your parents are stillwith us. They are yeah,
they they both just turned seventy.Check that's still here. Well, while
we're talking about children, because youwere almost children to some degree when I

(07:35):
think we were arguably children, Yesyou you young, you were children.
Ye. Children. Here's why youdon't realize you may owe me very part
of your remarkable career, which isbelieve I am home. I think young
parents. I think I just hadmy first kid. And a woman who

(07:57):
was at Mercury Records named Dawn Bridges, who was a publicity Yeah you might
you well remember don ye she wrote. She called me and she said,
I'm going to send you a song. I think it is so up your
alley, and I would like yourhelp maybe writing the press release. No
one's heard this, so please keepit under wraps. And she sent me

(08:18):
a It was literally a blind tastetest. It was just the name Hansen
and a song called Umba. Iput it on. I think I was
patient number one in Los Angeles becausewhat happened was it was not out yet.
She goes, I want to knowyour opinion and I want to know
if you'd help me write this likebio or press release, and I thought

(08:41):
it was the greatest song I've everheard in a decade. I literally flipped
out. And I was working atthe time as a helping Joel Gallon and
Jenny McCarthy. Was a show calledThe Jenny McCarthy Show, of course,
of course, and I went tothem and said, I have just heard
the best song in years, andwe have to have them on our show

(09:03):
that we're just beginning to tape.Yes, And so they both freaked out
for the record. And I believethat was one of your first national If
not you, I believe it wasperformance absolutely doing McCarthy. So you were
responsible for that, and that wasa seminole. That was a seminal performance

(09:24):
for in a variety of ways.Well one is probably the very first time
we did an acoustic Yeah, Ithink it was the first time. I
guess a woman that wasn't related tome. Yes, the way you guys
were too young to even look atJenny McCarthy. You know what, You're
never too young. It wasn't me. I love her, I think you
know she she jumped a big oldlike you're so cute. I love you

(09:46):
as a very, very happily marriedman of twenty two years. You're never
too young to look and you're nevertoo old to know the difference. Well,
that was that was how we met. Everyone fell in love with you,
I believe because the video may noteven come out yet, or I
think MTV rushed that in as alike on they started playing the performance,

(10:07):
and I remember meeting you guys.The I think the convention of that short
lived show, which I really enjoyedwas I think we put you all on
a pillow, the cast and Jennyand Jenny pretended to interview you, and
I was off camera, which iswhere I look best, way off camera
as this podcast and zoom show,asking questions, and everybody loved you,

(10:30):
and I will tell you, Idon't think we've run into each other.
You know, different shows. Therewas a show called grand Kids. There
was you know, a Grammy theTribute to the Beach Boys. The most
notable time Phil was I had Ibroke bread, specifically bagels with Hanson at
my tennis club. Yes, Iremember that very clearly, and my entire

(10:52):
family fell in love with Hanson.It's like, yes, and you have
a lovely family. You really do. Thank you. And now I will
say that. Yes, the hotbedof bagels, well you can find,
you know, but there's a sourdough place just around the corner. We
pull together some some bagels. Yea, it was a very specific thing.

(11:13):
Man. When it's right, it'sincredible, that's right. Yeah, it
is true. I mean I wouldsay one interesting thing about I mean,
many interesting things have happened, andwe've not, thankfully of a really really
long career just to be here.But you know, back to the beginning
of our story, I really thinkthe fact is I mentioned acoustic when we
went on at that time that wastwelve years old. I think when that

(11:35):
was actually happening, and you know, I hear, I'm fourteen, and
we sang that song which people consideredthis very very pop, very kind of
you know, produced and the soundwhat they thought was sort of a polished
recording, but really it was backto a simple song written by three kids
from a garage. And that performance, you know, showed it the first
TV performance he ever did, justhis acoustic guitar, some voices and percussion,

(11:58):
and and I really think the savinggrace of us being able to be
where we are today and for betteror for worse, because we've made many
worse and many better, but we'vewe've always we've always been speaking from who
we are, and I think breakingso young, like you see so many
people that that have really crumbled,and frankly people that were you know,
in their twenties and thirties that crumbleunder you know, a lot of sort

(12:20):
of global reach because this business ishard on you. It's it's a yeah,
it's very it's narcissism, and thenthere's like you know, poison in
every glass, you know, andyou know, you go out there,
you're like, we're great, Ohwe just died. But I think I
think that we're all coming back tothis question of how do you get from
here to there? And the factis that, the fact that we were
always songwriters and we're always players,I think it's been a huge bridge to

(12:43):
help sort of get us from thebeginning to now. Because you you go
through changes and you don't wake upat twenty five and you're like, now
this is who I really am.It's like, well, we've always been
coming from somewhere that was real better. You know, Like if you can
eating back to Jenny McCarthy, youknow, she's she's kind of like,
okay, well, yeah, herewe are. What struck me and continues

(13:03):
to amaze me about you three isthe beautiful harmonies. That's what That's what
stuck out to me in the inthe in the phenomenal pop song the first
one mbop and without the harmony,it's just a nice pop song. But
the harmony says, oh, thisis real musical talent. And I guess

(13:28):
my question would be, where doesthat sense of harmony? Where did that
come from? How did that start? The harmony part? To be honest,
I think it's in eight in inall of us. Our parents are
both singers. Our mom got afull full ride scholarship to North Texas State

(13:50):
as a major, and she,while she loved singing, she didn't love
college. And she just said toherself, she was just like, listen,
I love singing. You know,I'm good at this, but this
is not my bag, you know. So she just decided that she would
go back home. And my folksgot married, you know, I think

(14:13):
in their second year of college,or would have been their second year of
college, and and so so shejust worked and did you know she was
a teacher at one point in avariety of other things, and and then
but that innate talent in her.And then also our dad was also He
started off as a arts major inschool. He went to OU and then
decided it was impractical and he didn'tlike ballet enough. He became a responsible

(14:41):
accountant father, and they began raisinga very large family. Yeah, and
is it true that you're ten thousandhours to use a phrase that everyone uses?
Now, how true is it thatwhen your dad took a job.
I believe it was overseas and youhad a I forget one anthology of like
this is what I remember from theold days. It was like a fifties,

(15:03):
sixties anthology. It was nineteen fiftyeight. It was twenty singles from
nineteen fifty eight. It started offwith Johnny be good. Well you got
to back up and go this ispre internet, pre cell phones. Yeah,
like pre pre shoes, this isthis is cafette tapes right there aren't
even compact discs really not really beginningto start. And so we had one

(15:28):
like our mom's like what can Itake with us? We're going to live
in Ecuador and Venezuela. At onepoint we were living in a in a
single wide on a drilling camp inthe jungle. Yeah, and yeah in
Venezuela. And then another day wewere living in a house that is now
the embassy of a small nation.Yeah exactly. I was like either on
inspection, yeah exactly, but weshe you know, if you remember back

(15:52):
in the back at that time,you would have not just commercials for like
you know, GINSU Knives, butyou also have these commercials for Time Life
Present. Yeah. Then roll Era, you know, and it was like
and the first tape was from nineteenfifty eight, had Johnny be Goods Summertime,
Blues, splitsh Splash, Good,Golly Miss Molly Rock and Robin Tequila

(16:14):
Sweet Yes, Yeah, Sweet Littlesixteen is on there. I mean,
there's a bunch of just classic songs. But the coolest thing about those songs,
in hindsight is they are two minutes, two minutes and thirty seconds long,
and so the best, the bestlesson you get in songwriting is condensed
songs like that. And what wedidn't I think realized at the time was

(16:37):
what we were doing by osmosis waslearning the kind of pop song structure in
a very u in a very condensedway. You know. It's like,
wait, these songs are only twominutes two and a half minutes long.
And when you do that, youdon't have this like I'm going to be
a prog rock musician. You go, no, I'm going to write songs
like Chuck Berry did, songs likeEddie Cochrane sang you know whatever this is,

(17:03):
and and then you know, andthen you get you know, you're
like, oh, he played realgood, Like I think it was there
the spirit of connection too, likethey didn't have to have you heard that
with a voice and with maybe afairly simple arrangement is so visceral, so
powerful. Those early records are solike immediate and raw. Yeah. Right,
you could be a kid and juststart singing and get get some of

(17:26):
the energy in the spirit without beingat even halein to replicate some epic rock
recD which would have been happening atthe time. Yeah, in the pop
world that he was like the goddude n And were you aware were you
aware of the kid groups that hadgone before you, the Osmonds, the
Jackson's not not in the quite themod larity of the fact that they were

(17:48):
kid groups, but but listening tothe Jackson five very quickly after that,
going wow, these are our peers, like Michael Jackson was eleven twelve,
right right, yeah, we wow, they're just like us. Maybe we
can do that. I think thatwas seeing yourself kind of in a different
form, going like that's that's areal thing. Well, and also realizing

(18:08):
that even even the Beatles or evenElvis or some of these guys were very
very young when they started. Sothere's this utilization that while we are young,
and this is kind of a crazyidea, it's not an impossible idea,
right you know. In fact,in fact, it really a particularly
rock and roll was a young person'ssport. I mean it was a teenagers

(18:30):
invented. There's all kinds of amazingmusic. You know. Frank Sinatra was
young, but he was a heartthrowing, heart throw you know, and
he was the first, right yeah, one of the first. But even
in eras where you know, wherecontemporary music was a little more adult,
you know, the big band erathat they had a band leader was forty
or fifty year old guy potentially,But rock and roll was like throughout the
window and here came't like it wasteenagers and it was energy and it was

(18:53):
a band of three or four orfive people. It just ye't happened.
So I think we just we justdidn't see the barriers. We just began
to fall in love and create andsing. And also people who begin to
hear you a little bit and theygo, what is that? Yeah?
Who are you you like? Whyare you harmonizing? Why are these kids

(19:14):
harmonizing rock and roll songs like asif it's their music? And for us
it was because it was. Itwas it was personal less, it was
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(19:57):
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(20:22):
app Sitting It Home. All thefriends gas miss and harassed. So is
Penny and meats nice Goose Penniless downto the media, speed up town and
Penny elect games. It's diy scasgoose aras tend to fly. So let

(20:49):
me go back for one second,because the harmony to me is yes,
is key? Does mom or dadteach you that? Do they come in
one day and when you're singing togetherand go, you know what, if
you take this higher part and youtake this lower part, it'll be better.
How does that happen? Our dadhad Our dad had this kooky little

(21:10):
like quirky little thing that he woulddo at the end. So you'd like
say a prayer over the evening meal, you know, or something like that,
and he'd go, well, andthen we'll say amen at the end,
but we'll go amen amen, thirdfifth, and so we do that,
and so in a sense that wasalso a very rudimentary training in a

(21:30):
certain sense to hear a cord.And then we also all started at around
the same time as first come ofgetting aust into rock and roll, we
would we started playing piano in somecapacity. Zach. Obviously you were very
young. You started when you wereinteresting one. Yeah, I started piano
earlier than that, because I wasnot with Donald Ryan, but probably six

(21:51):
or seven. Yeah, And youknow, I think it's partly just what
you're surrounded with. So Isaac's talkingabout our parents naturally singing, you know,
they were singing almost games, youknow, teaking those things, not
even intentionally as a teaching tool,but just as knowing our dad now,

(22:11):
especially as a father, thinking aboutwho he is. It's just the way
he's a little nerd and solid information, you know. And then church,
I mean you have to talk aboutchurch, because our grandparents were in Church
of Christ, which is no instruments, all right, all singing, harmony,
and so just how you grew upchurches where people everyone, the whole

(22:34):
congregos, one hundred and fifty,two hundred and fifty people harmonizing together.
And then of course rock and rollis gospel music. That's just gone awry
exactly exactly like it was like watchme. I was gonna say, it's
gospel music, but they're worshiping adifferent god. Yes, exactly, it's

(22:56):
it's Chuck Berry worshiping that sweet littlesix teen, which now would have to
be sweet little eighteen or twenty onerings differently. Yeah, the man like
the word light before. One ofmy favorite moments of my whole life was
my wife and I had just gotwho he met, just got engaged,

(23:18):
and I took her to the openingof the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
and she was backstage with me andChuck Berry was sitting he was about to
play with Bruce Springsteen in the StreetBand. Were sitting on a you know,
a speaker, and my wife lookedat him and goes, who's that
nice old man. He looks sweet, And I said, honey, stay
away from that nice old man.He's he's he's consider divorce. Well,

(23:41):
I should have terrible judgment in men. When she urged very wow, considered
a body. Yes, he's like, oh my gosh, yeah, no,
that's that's amazing. I mean Chuck, Chuck brought us a great many
good things, and he had somebad character quality yeah, that spin document
now and we just have to livewith oh, I said, honey,

(24:03):
stay away from the ment the ladiesroom when he's around. We'll get Yes,
we'll get past this this part quickly. But people have to know just
how phenomenal u mbop was in theworld. It was in how many countries
number one at the same time.Well, I think as far as actually
at the same time. I thinktechnically, I know that we were the

(24:26):
first band to have a single simultaneouslynumber one in the UK and the US
at the same time. I don'tknow how many of those how many weeks
were actually in alignment as far asat the same time, but it's something
like twenty five twenty yeah, right, like Noppens. It's one of the

(24:48):
I'm telling you, it's one ofthe most astonishing entrances into music. And
I can I saw it because Iliterally had this. I remember it was
a clear cassette with just Hanson writtenon it, and I play for I
went around playing to people like anevangelistic fan and and and everyone. Everyone
flipped out and denial. But whenPhil says it's a nice pop song,

(25:11):
it is one of the greatest popsongs of all time. I actually think
it is a profound record, andto prove that, I think I'm going
to begin this episode before anything.Here's this. I'm gonna go to a
record that proves and I am afan. For this interview, I listened
to everything you've ever done. Iwent back, Oh my God, and
I want to use. The onlyold songs I want to use are the

(25:33):
new verse recent version of from theString Theory record, which you did with
BET's father David Campbell doing string arrangements. I think it's one of the best
records, not just one of thebest readers you've done, it's one of
the best records anyone's ever done.It's astonishing, and it proves the musical
greatness of Beyond the Harmony is thisis a great great songwriters, great producers,

(25:56):
and they have a fight for thatprivilege. But we'll begin with that
version of Bop because I don't Ithink it is actually lyrically if you break
it down. The crazy thing isyou were wise beyond your years. I
don't know if you were get pickingup wisdom from I don't know from where.
We were lucky to be exposed tosongwriting early, right, Yeah,

(26:22):
when you know I was four orfive in South America. Right, just
it's like you're obsorbing like a sponge. You don't even know why you're listening.
And then when we started making thechoice to be a band, that
meant not doing any other things.And so a lot of our peers were
on the soccer team or going tobirthday parties, and on Saturdays and Sundays
we were playing concerts. Right,And then we started we were homeschooled,

(26:48):
and so we started doing gigs inthe middle of the week because we could
do school assemblies and we could dothings that that allowed you to have the
freedom to do because you weren't inthis to be here at six am and
you leave at three eight pm.And I played bars because you were you
know, I'm your next team.But Umbop shows this reflection of the message

(27:08):
we were getting for our parents andthe message we were coming to naturally,
which is, hey, life isfull of all kinds of choices, and
if you love something, you're gonnahave to pursue it, and not everyone's
gonna agree with you. Not everyoneI'm gonna understand you. Right, We're
already experiencing rejection. It was it'sa strange thing, and I'm so grateful
for it. Now, the lyricsof that song, which you're pointing to,

(27:30):
you know, the very first lyricsof Umbop, which is are you
You have so many relationships in thislife only wanted to last. You go
through all the pain and strife,you turn your back and they're gone so
fast, sold on. The onesthat really care in the end will be
the only ones there when you getold, start losing your hair, Can
you tell me who will still care? It's amazing, like this is this
is kind of like both sad andtragicy, Like it's it's your, it's

(27:52):
like you. It's like you startedout as teens doing My Way by Frank
Sinatra. It's like it's a mythlife crisis song. It's fantastic, it
is, but it's well, I'mgrateful for that because part of what I
was pointing to you earlier, andagain you're so gracious in your introduction,
is is we that may have beenwrong or it might have been right,
regardless of whether it was and regardlessof whether it was going to become incredibly

(28:15):
popular, it was us going throughlife talking about it, putting in a
song, and so through the years, regardless of the days people have not
understood it and have zero idea andother days where we get to actually talk
about those stories. It was yourstory. And I think that's an incredibly
how powerful way through the journey we'reeven talking about in Numbapa Well, because

(28:37):
that you have to start with whatyou care about and blue and kind of
can attached to because that's all that'sreally going to be there. The other
stuff sort of comes and goes well. In two minor caveats about that,
One is you asked about influence asyou hear people like the Jackson five and
you hear a song like Ben andyou go, WHOA, okay, right,
and so you kind of get permissionalmost in a sense to Emailancholy even

(29:00):
as a young que had to writeabout a rat, yeah right, which
is weird, very small list.You see the cover of that single,
you're like emotional depth, the emotionalsong exactly, but for songs about rats.

(29:21):
But then the other I think theother element of that is that you
know, when you have permission tokind of kind of go into that kind
of place, you start to realize, well, I can write things that
are about what's going on in herethat are not purely contextual to me being
this age, and I think wealways kind of instinctively knew that, but

(29:44):
there but it it just things likethat added a certain level of permission in
your own heart and in your ownhead to say, you know what,
I'm not just writing a song aboutmy own life in this moment. I'm
trying to write a song that hasrelevance to someone than me as well.
And so that was that was certainlya conscious goal. I think people understodate
too, the depth of emotion youngpeople are having, you know, I

(30:07):
just I think when you look backon your life, most people have very
profound thoughts about the feelings and thestruggles they were, but most people can't
articulate them right. And as societytends to go, you're twenty now you
can be a real person, right, And it's like, gosh, most
people's deepest, hardest, you know, darkest, most challenging things go back

(30:29):
to that time of youth where they'recoming into humanity and they, like you
said, they can't figure out howto say it. And you know what,
our gift to be able to bekids their age sharing those kind of
thoughts and even songs I think it'sreflected also in songs also on that same
you know, debut record like Weird, where it's talking about a similar theme.

(30:51):
It's actually very much coming from thesame place that Ambob was coming from,
which is like, Wow, wefeel like we're kind of out of
place, we feel like we don'tfit, and so we're kind of writing
about it. And it's very personal, it's very real, and and just
kind of embrace it and embrace itand you and and because in a sense
you say to yourself, well,if I feel this way, I'm sure
other people feel this way too,and maybe this is gonna be something helpful

(31:15):
for someone else. Also, sowhen you guys write a song, let's
say it. You write that song, the first people that you played for
are your parents were asked garage man. We were a living room band.
We took over the house. Imean, it's hard to so they hear
you, they hear you actually writingit. Yeah, it's happening. It's

(31:36):
happening in that. But when it'sfinished and and you played for them the
full thing, do they look ateach other in high five? I have
five children. I have five children. If three of them are doing anything
with a smile together. Yes,I am high fiving everyone I can see.

(31:57):
I think they were just that theyhad three boys of different ages.
They're just playing nicely together. They'redoing they're literally making harmony. Right,
You're like, can you just livein harmony? Fighting? Loved whees the

(32:30):
love. It's not enough work rounded, rounded whees love, just giving it
up, round and bounding. Let'stalk about brotherhood because Phil, I don't
know if you if you know hisstory, but Phil created Everybody Loves Raymond.

(32:51):
Everyone just wanted him to create amillion more sitcoms, and he had
a passion like uh, like yourdust brother friend for food and travel and
the world. And so he andhis brother Richard have created this smash Netflix
phenomena global hit of somebody feed Phil? And you know, yes, he

(33:14):
has to only get along with onebrother for the last like ten years,
right, which brings up the questionwhy would you work with your brothers?
Why? It's always a great question. Okay, here's how why you do
it? When because you're trapped ina little you don't when you're young,
you don't know anybody, that's right, You have no other friends. Yes,
that's the only guy I know.I guess they're all like this.

(33:37):
There's a lot of levels. Imean, one, you you do have
the positives of it is we reallyhave a shared we have a shared sort
of heritage obviously literally heritage, butmusical and educational, creative. You have
this connection that's hard to explain.Uh. And and it is a shorthand
to a point where it's genuinely shorthand. And harmony is an example. I
mean, we will walk into aroom and someone will hear a song and

(33:57):
I'll just someone will sing a noteand as we go and it just harmonized.
And some of that is just thirtyyears of doing it. Others is
DNA. And also it's also memorizationof songs, so you know what the
melody is, and you know whatthe you know where the chord goes.
And then there's also the parlor trickof the fact that you always revert to
the melody. Zach always reverts upand I always revert down, and we

(34:17):
can and basically we can just trackthat way right now, Okay, I
don't know, Yeah, ye's yeah, sitting and Gord and skate on top
of Blue Hill. Mm hmm.The King one moment we're not as please

(34:43):
don't tell me give mess sunshine,see yeh gorgeously back to the gospel days.
And what's amazing is as Phil startedover the weekend, I was saying
to him some things to watch aboutyou guys, just to show your story.

(35:04):
And he goes, have you seenthis? And he sent from the
Sydney Opera House the too Much Heavenand he was flipping. He was flipping
out over that. Nobody gets toomuch heaven. No, mo is much
harder to come. I'm waiting.Nobody gets too much love is as high

(35:31):
as a mountain. And again,like, there is that brother thing like
I having. I've had. I'vewritten liner notes for the Beach Boys for
the first box set by the Beg's, and there is the brother thing.
Is crazy. It's just it's aspecial thing. It's a superpower really to

(35:53):
have this annoying as it is.There's a thing. But because the part
about being brothers is not I thinkthe fact that you are brothers, because
usually I think that's an advantage.You start off in the same bedroom,
listening to the same music, havingthe same influences, eating the same serial.

(36:15):
You're as close to twins or clonesas you can be your vocal courts
are genetically almost the same or asclose as you can get. The hard
part is when you have as muchhistory as Brothers have and you inevitably grow
and change. Can you live withthe fact that the guy you've known for
thirty years and worked with for thirtyyears is now not quite the guy that

(36:38):
used to be in the band?Right? He has new ideas and new
skills and new ways of one todo things. And now it's what is
the exactly now you are? You'renot thinking like a threeaded hydride And I

(36:59):
think it's it is it's exactly that, And it is also you know,
the fact is that that that's Imean, that's true of relationships. I
mean, you know, you gothrough how to marriages, last how I
mean not to get weird, butit is a little bit of that evolving
towards positive, towards something and realizingyou're not going to be the exact same
person and still finding those things.And it is interesting because we've had a
conversation about a project, you knowcalled Brothers, where that connects the dots

(37:21):
with the brother There's so many connectionswith music created by Brothers and the you
know, the Oasis examples the onepeople always give, look how conflict they
are, but it's actually way,way, way, way more you know,
prevalent throughout music and in constructive ways, and you see it over and
over and it's it's just because peopleare I mean, I believe people are
naturally creative, whether whether we giveourselves that Moniker or not. Most humans

(37:44):
we're not robots, I mean,we just aren't. We were made to
make things, invent things, thinkabout how to make it a little bit
better, and so there's creativity.If there's a little bit of creativity of
a certain way in some family circle, more than likely there's someone within your
shot or eyeshot that's like got theother side of that coin, you know,
like drummer, guitar player, keybordplayer, harmon. You know,

(38:06):
you're finding the formation of a thing, you know, like there's a widget
there that connects it from our ourgrandfather, our dad's dad was you know,
saying in a barbershop quartet for years. Our our dad, our our
mom's parents. Her dad was avery good singer, beautiful baritone voice.
But his his brother's, many ofhis siblings were literally touring musicians, playing

(38:30):
you know, playing trumpet and singingand all that kind of stuff. I
mean, you know, it's it'sin the DNA in some large sense.
And on a technical level too,when you talk about the brother thing and
the kind of superpower that that is, on a technical level, it is
really just that your voices are assimilar as they can be for all intents
and purposes without being identical. Andthen the thing that happens is it's phase

(38:55):
cancelation. This is a technical thingof the wave of worms are interacting with
each other in a very unique way. It creates chorusing, it creates this
course effect, so that brother trionow sounds a little bit bigger in a
different way for people would sound.And it also kind of blends together in

(39:15):
a way that is uniquely like it'slike one instrument, but it's not what's
going on there. Okay, butyou don't see this. If if this
was just brothers, you'd see alot more of guys like you. But
we don't. Well, I havea technical thing. Part of the research.
We just say people aren't making babiesas much larger. Yeah, larger

(39:40):
families. If you have less largerfamilies, you're going to just have less
of that that's just, that's justsomebody needs to go to Utah and look
brothers. Yeah, the Catholic families, Yeah, people have always Catholic.
Neither one either. But I thinkI'd just like to not think about it.

(40:00):
Our parents really liked each other all. Yeah, but everyone's I do
think though, I mean, Ifeel just hitting on that it is harmony
is something that is special and wewe just One of the greatest gifts of
having a long career is also youbegin to be able to have relationships and
connections with people that are heroes ofyours and boys. A great example,

(40:21):
we've sung and played with the BeachBoys Timed over the years. We sang
for Brian Wilson's induction of the SongwritersHall of Fame five years twenty four years
ago when he was inducted, andwe sang, of course what was wrong
with us? We chose to singgod Heart, one of the hardest songs,
most beautiful songs now I think recognizesmaybe the greatest pop song ever,
you know, beconceived on our Onour this week's podcast, our podcast,

(40:44):
we broke down our favorite albums andsaid that is the greatest song of all.
Yeah, it only knows it's oneof the truly it's great. It's
great because it's crazy simple sounding andthe tortal structure is not simple at all,
and when I wanted to point thatout, to connect the dots to

(41:06):
what the message I was trying tolead towards, which is this generational thing
and harmony not being there as much. We now have gotten to know and
be honored by and by working withpeople like the Beach Boys and uh Doobie
Brothers. Great example, we justsang it Grammy's Hall of Fame for a
Doobie Brother's induction of what a FullBelieve was inducted as a song in their
Hall of Fame. And the DoobieBrothers are in town. I have Michael's

(41:29):
number, Michael McDonald d Legend,the Lovely Man, Michael McDonalds podcast,
and so she's so fantastic. Yeah, we didn't sing with him last the
other night, but but just himgoing, hey, you did his proud
phenomenal you know arrangement. I waslike, oh my gosh, they're so
kind and so awesome. As afan. But the Doobie Brothers, the
seventies bands that you had, thisband bands with harmonies, you had bands

(41:52):
with you had even you know gosh, I mean think about well three Dog
Night, Dog Knight, you thinkabout love. There was a whole wave
of bands with harmony, and that'saccidentally kind of how we became a seventies
rock band. We listened to thesame stuff that the seventies rock bands listening.
So there is something about I don'tknow if it is partly trend and

(42:15):
time and arc of influences in family, you know, volume, like Seck
said, but harmony is is agift and you don't hear it enough,
and so it is it's really youknow, we feel yeah, it's almost
like music is disappearing from music alittle bit, a little bit. They

(42:36):
don't want to I don't want tosound too old, but you're right beyond
interesting thing that that's happened with thedigitization of music and the fact that you
can do it alone so easily,with amazing samples. I make all kinds
of music alone in you know,my office. But there is something lost
by the fact that it's not playedwith people the way it's intended, to

(43:00):
the fact that it can be perfected, and you can you can never perfect
another person's performance without them adding theirimperfection. But to get to the technical
thing, me being the the engineerbrain, goes, well, the reason
why perfection is not actually the goalis again it's about phase cancelation. When

(43:22):
you line up waveforms exactly in linewith each other, they start to cancel
each other out in negative ways.And so actually what happens is it shrinks,
it doesn't grow. And so thebeauty about that weird internal metronome thing
that happens when other people are playingwith each other is that you're not actually
technically in perfect time with each other. You're in some weird relative place.

(43:47):
And one of the most beautiful articulationsto me of that is playing with symphonies
back in twenty twenty nineteen for theString Theory project is what's crazy about symphonies
is that the note actually gets widerbecause it is not tempered tuning. It
is fingers on a fretboard. Andso somebody's one scent sharp and somebody's one

(44:12):
sent flat, and what technically happensis that note is three cents wide.
It's a very strange, weird thing, and you don't notice it until you
hear it. You know what itis. It's it's human, the human
ear loves it. Well. Ithink ultimately what we're talking about about umbop

(44:34):
is that it was also incredibly true. That's I think the part that made
it right. You would have tobe as young as we were to come
up with a sound like mbopop rightand sing it with complete reckless abandon and
confidence. If you would have beenthree years older, that's stupid, that's

(44:54):
not cool. Right. Literally,were like, hey, it sounds cool,
let's do it right. We werebravely kind of going out there the
beauty of that lyric, just likeben just like God only knows, right,
is it's true? It's really true? Right? God only knows if
it was like somebody only knows thatwhat you referenced it to the eternal?

(45:19):
Right, They've given the related withthe woman something beyond the existence of life,
and it made it so rich anddeep and rooted. And I think
that's that human thing, like whenyou go into the human and then into
the eternal, that's the robots willrust and die. The robots are effects

(45:43):
similar. We will take over firstdefinitely, it's like a I is going
to figure out how to sound authentic, and then it was all only knows
what I've been without you. Wehave addressed your greatness. I want to

(46:32):
say. The other thing I loveabout you is that you were brothers.
I I was around to watch youbecome brothers with balls. You when you
say you became a seventies band,that was not a right given to you.
At a certain point, you hadto fight. And there's a documentary
called I don't know if people canstill see it. I don't know if

(46:52):
it's online, but strong enough tobreak a documentary that sort of captures that
moment. And I remember just intermittentlyrunning into you. If you could just
give us a synopsis of what Iremember, is that Mercury Records began.
I think at a certain point theywere sort of sold out or bought out
by death Jam and you, afterthis astronomical success, you had to show

(47:16):
serious balls in standing up for yourright to make the kind be the kind
of group you wanted to be.Is that Am I remembering that right?
Yeah? It's accurate. I mean, there's lots of things, and everybody
has a piece to tell that,but it's really in the end, we
had this astronomical success in the firstrecord and immediately completely separated from Hansen anything
to do with us. The mergerof Universal and PolyGram happened. When that

(47:38):
happened, it was a large thingbetween the first and second record, which
is really an unfortunately crucial So webegan to see immediately after that success like
what it means to survive, whatit means to go further than success if
you're on your own. We gotthat record out, we basically lost the
whole label that signed us when wemade our second. Yeah, that's the
part that you lose. It's theoretically, companies merging might not change anything.

(48:02):
It's a logo on a record.But the problem is when the whole staff
turns over and the guys that signedyou are gone. And we happen to
be a little bit of an anomaly, especially in the late nineties where we're
like this seventies band that's doing popmusic and kids and kids, and it
just you really needed champions. Andwhat really ended up happening is we you

(48:28):
know, we lose the champions.But also we weren't. Nobody was gonna
let Hanson go. It wasn't.It wasn't like and forget those guys were
we were an asset. This crazyyou know, big success. Second eight
million records. On your second record, we did did really well compared to
most every record that gets released onEarth, you know, but but not
nearly what the first one did becauseit was labeled it basically six weeks after

(48:49):
the least of the second record thatwe got through and made, which was
also a record one of the mostrecord was proud of almost the same team
we made the first record with.They basically were like, Okay, time
to do solo records, and youguys, you know, they just they
basically just dropped energy. We literallyleft, We literally left some promo that
we were doing for that second recordthis time around, you know, And

(49:09):
it was a struggle to get thatrecord made for a variety of reasons,
because we knew, amongst other things, that that the label was in flux
and really did not get us.We had. You started to see kind
of the the the leftovers of Universaland so on and so forth slowly get
fired, you know, Steve Greenbergand Danny Goldberg and all these people that

(49:31):
were amazing huge risk, huge riskson signing us in the first place,
and then a lot of the peoplemore from the hip hop world started to
take over. You were like going, like oh, we'refent size were outside
of and so the pop music.But we're leaving. We're leaving a promo
period there in New York City andwe're literally in our hotel room talking to

(49:55):
the president of the label and thechairman of the label Grew and they're like,
yeah, so, uh, yourband is uh Damaged Goods. You
have a damaged brand. You needto do solo record. We sold a
million copies on the Damage Good record. Yeah that point that point they and

(50:15):
the yeah, and so what whatmaybe what happened next is we stepped into
the next ara. This is kindof the testing period, and we were
we were passionate about Okay, we'regonna prove it through the music. We're
gonna we're gonna bring this team onboard. They're never gonna let us go
because we're this glowing. We soldmillions of copies. They don't know what
to do, but they're not gonnalet us go. And so we went
out and pursued people that we thoughtwere amazing. We pursued people that were

(50:36):
up and coming now or like crushingthe world, like Greg Wells who's producing
and written like Endless Things, MatthewSweet who we thought was an amazing artist,
artists that we respected, producers likeMitchell Frum and Chad Blake, and
we basically went after, we're gonnawrite and make this next third record,
and we essentially just realized turned thecamera on. That's when we made the
documentary to show the music, andwe realized, you know, slowly,

(50:59):
that we were never going to movethe mountain. That was this corporate company
that really wasn't even about Hanson oranyone else. They were just living in
this new world that we're now allsuffering under, which is this corporate driven,
corporate dollar you know, top chartchasing group. That is people that
are just failing upwards, executives thatare just getting fired to then get hired
by the next thing because they werepart of something else, really really big

(51:22):
before and so we're kind of acollateral damage. And so we made a
decision at some point to finish arecord on our dime as well as dimes
that we were you know, goingto recoup, you know, and said,
look, here's the record. Wellwhat was really unique and this is
to try and jump ahead to kindof where we are now, which is
this we're twenty years since we didthis the Underneath record, which we made

(51:44):
an album called Underneath, and thepivotal point, just to jump ahead and
kind of kind of balance it out, was we were seeing something that this
is. So it's almost painful andgrotesque to say out loud because it seems
so embarrassing, but it's so true. The industry genuinely didn't think the Internet
mattered the digital platforms. They reallydidn't, and so they were sitting on
the hubris of retail and radio andprint and magazines and and MTV dominating.

(52:08):
And we were, meanwhile, aband that had broken less than ten years
before that, with twenty early twentiesand teens still on our third album,
being like, guys, we havemessage boards and fans in every country on
Earth messaging talking. We have anactive fangging us to put out a record,
saying why has it been three years? And we're going like, even

(52:29):
if you don't get this, evenif you're the rap label that doesn't know
what the hanson is. Yeah,we sold a bunch of records, but
you don't know what's do with this. We've a band that has bands all
over the planet. Just let's let'sfinish this record. Let's let's get it
out, Let's get it going,like the our heroes are Tom Petty and
Springsteen and the you know people withcareers. Let's go. And so we
had to make a decision to say, we're going to finish a record,
We're going to present it. We'regoing to say take it or leave it.

(52:51):
And they they they went, wedon't get it. And so we
we got ourselves off the label.We didn't. We had to fight to
get ourselves off the label still.And the thing we chose to do with
the help of a couple, youknow, people with some balls, some
other whole new team. Everybody wasnew new management, new label. Everything
we built, you know, theconcept of a new indie label and distributor

(53:12):
of music and launched three CG Recordswith a song called pennyon Me and in
the You two thousand and four,I mean, and that was like and
here we go. Everything's on theline, you know, And now it's
been that's twenty years ago, andtwenty years later you're putting out I think
it's coming out in October, right, it's going to be called Is It
Underneath Complete? Is that the act? Really? Yeah? And I find
some way to like bring that together. This is basically underneath the album,

(53:37):
plus songs that were recorded but notreleased as part of the albums with demos
and finished recordings because there were somany recordings for that record, and then
we did some new recordings too,because it it's just you can't for us.
You always have to keep adding thenew creativity to what you're doing m
hm. And so that was important. So in this episode, uh,
we're gonna put a link to orderthis. I'm ordering one. I'll be

(54:00):
the first to order it because there'salready a track. There's a version of
Penny and Me. I guess youcall it Moonlight version. And last night
my wife and I have a newpuppy and there was fire We're doing this
on the July fifth. July fourthwas his first puppy experience of Independence Day

(54:22):
and fireworks all around Los Angeles,and so I had headphones on trying to
be as quiet as I could notto wake the puppy and listen. I
literally listened to Penny and Me MoonlightVersion. I went to sleep at one
am and was woke up to it, and I listened to it a hundred
times while I was awakening, smilingbecause this the underneath record really is where

(54:45):
you took a stand. It isan unbelievable record. I have so many
pennyon and me is just in anyversion, but that version, the Moonlight
version, I just think is exquisite. I do have another question about a
track from the record, which isuh. In addition to being I believe
one of the first fans of Hanson, I was the guy who reviewed and

(55:07):
was the first champion of the newradicals uh and and I think my only
reservation if I go back to myreview, I know I had expressed this
at the time. I didn't likewhat sounded potentially like a little bit of
a I didn't know how ironic aslap at Hanson, at at Beck and
Hanson Ellison from dying empty big manis dying by computing, crashes down and

(55:34):
call him well, then love themback. And she went back in corn
manson things until young Mans. Uh. And now tomorrow night, I'm going
to see Beck. Still I neverunderstood you're going after Beck, whose last

(55:59):
name is Hanson. So I thoughtfor years I tried to think, is
he going after Beck? Hanson?But I think he was going after Beck.
He was referencing Hanson. So weyeah, you're referencing him because Greg,
we wrote a song with him,because we also loved that record.
You know, I mean, youknow what you got the music in you,
what's the actual you get, whatyou give, you get what you
give, what you get what youhave you amazing song, amazing pop song.

(56:21):
And and he is he's just anodd dude. I mean, he's
just kind of his his whole styleof communication is not is not so straight
ahead. He's very about what he'smaking. I didn't really like being famous,
but he's a phenomenal writer. He'sa great musical thinker. And yes,
we wrote a song with him andhad to ask that same question when
we sat down during this record.He tried, he tried to kind of

(56:44):
say he didn't do it. Butanyway, we wrote a great song with
didn't lost lost without each other,Absolutely love it. We can hear a
little of that one too. There'sone more because I actually think Greg is

(57:22):
a very odd genius, you knowtalent. You know, that's very uh.
And by the way, I rememberwhen I wrote about that song,
Joni Mitchell, who's pretty good inthe songwriting front, in the interview I
did with Rolling Stone, said that'sthe only good song that's been written in
the last twenty five years, youknow, which is not was not true
because it was umbop, but Ialways thought that was my praise. Here's

(57:45):
another genius who who came across atleast Taylor. I think at least you
got to know him, and it'ssomeone who you got to know. And
I just wanted to bring him upbecause I recently did. We did a
podcast with America the Guys from America, and I forgot we didn't talk about
Adam Slessinger, who was, tome another one of my absolute favorite creative

(58:09):
forces. I got to know himas I was a total fanboy, and
then because he wrote themes and comedysongs for TV shows would I got to
work with him and collaborate a littlewith him. But I was always such
a fanboy. He couldn't believe that. The last time I saw him was
Valentine's Day twenty twenty. Usually Isaw him at the Emmys when he was

(58:29):
winning and I was losing, butI did. But Valentine Valentine's Day twenty
twenty, I think I was ina crowded bar with him and it was
right as that was right as thingswere beginning to get bad. But I
just I guess I wanted to ask, at least Taylor. I don't know
if the other two, what didyou love about Adam? Because you were
in a band called You did arecord Tinted Windows with Bunny Carlos from Cheap

(58:53):
Trick, And I guess with yeah, James, what's your memory of how
great Adam was? Well? WhatI mean, for one, we all
did meet. The first meeting ofAdam was him as a He's about ten
years older than us, and hewas beginning to break with foun Zu Wayne
and was also trying to be asongwriter on this as well. And I've

(59:14):
done that thing you do for anamazing movie, and and we came to
Red together and we didn't get anythingthat made it to that first record,
but we'd stay connected because he wasjust a generally curious musical person and he
was you know, was within strikingdistant age wise, and so we all
knew him a lot. But butAdam was just he really was a genius

(59:34):
and was truly and and he alsoI would say Adam actually knew his lane.
You know. I think what's reallyfunny is not not to say he
couldn't do anything, because he reallycould do so many things. But he
also understood. He didn't go,he didn't go writing opera. He went.
He understood, He really understood andwas was endlessly curious about the best
pop song about and the power popparticularly, which we know the world knows

(59:58):
this of him, but I'm justgoing to EMPHASI as a guy that did
it. As a part of thatis, you know, this idea of
pop songs with guitar, like loudguitar plus great melody, which we kind
of need to keep alive because it'sit's so good when it's good, and
it's just it's just pop songs withbands really, but particularly not as much
as the gospel R and B sideof things, but that straight ahead thing

(01:00:20):
that came out of bands like theKinnings and Cheap Trick and then of course
many many other offshoots. And soyes, we had a band called Tenny
Windows that we formed and it reallywas the premise of like, again,
let's make the perfect power pop band. And I'll say a couple of things.
One, Adam was always so wasalways kind, always always interested in
hearing kind of the you know theideas of the other guy in the room.

(01:00:43):
But at the same time, hehad so many good ideas that it
was always hard to find a wayto be a better one, you know.
And so he was just one ofthose guys that always that was so
full of what he was going tocreate. And that's why he was so
successful doing so many different things,I mean, film, doing TV,
having multiple bands. I still can'tbelieve that he's not here. It doesn't

(01:01:04):
make any sense at all. Hewas certainly the closest first to me that
died due to COVID, and Imean still have friends, and I will
say I still hope to honor thatand him in a musical way, you
know, in a more meaningful way. And what a cool thing, you
know, just coming back to thelegacy of music, and you know to
this that album, that album.One of the greatest things of Underneath and

(01:01:27):
then also the continued Windows album isgetting to connect with people you deeply respect
and then share a story with them, like we get to say now on
this tour we're doing for the UnderneathComplete album, we have Matthew Sweet coming
out and playing supporting the tour.What a great, amazing thing. We
have fan of Planet who were justbecoming kind of a making a great great
pop power pop record a many yearsago, and we've stayed connected to these

(01:01:51):
bands, but we've men both andmen worked with and met both of those
guys during that Underneath album, whichis what's so kind of full circle and
fun to be able to do thoseshows with with with tended windows like as
that example, like somebody respect peoplerespect, and then you turn around like
and then in my drummer Bunny Carloslike what card player James e Ha,
we were like, what is goingon? I remember walking into the anytime

(01:02:13):
you walk in room with James zyAha, it's hilarious. It's particularly man,
they'll be just the look and belike, hey, go to see
you, and then they'll stop.I'll be like, is that? What
is that? James fucking Eha islike a unicorn. Yeah, And it's
not just it's not just a psiconicstatus. It's it's just what he's contributed.
And that's the great gift I thinkof time is if you get to

(01:02:37):
do what we've gotten to do,you do get to not just make your
own thing, but you get tosort of ender, You get to kind
of cross with people that you justadmire and respect, and then you know
that becomes a part of this collectivestory. I just think that is definitely
a part of the underneath story.Like that album has a lot of that.
So do you guys remember the firsttime you met the kind of a

(01:03:00):
dark side of rock and roll?And his name is Kim Falley. Actually,
there's a few, I mean there'sa few names. I mean we
because I mean, did you literallymeet Kim Falley? Kim Valley is the
first introduction we really had two thatmusic business, business to the business.

(01:03:22):
Really for those of us who don'tknow, For those who don't know,
educate us. Go watch the Runawaysmovie or read a book by any of
the Runaways. He was a legendary. He's a songwriter and also a manager
and producer and sort of an artistdiscoverer. He is a treeucker driver promoters.

(01:03:44):
But you guys are literally innocent cominginto this world. And and do
you remember going, oh, we'renot in Kansas anymore. This is we'll
do our brother to kind of tellthis story. We actually really haven't told
this story almost at all, butback in so this have been somewhere around
ninety three ninety four. We twoyears before signed. Being two years before

(01:04:04):
being signed, we we had kindof made some acapella an acapella record,
but we hadn't really kind of advancedinto kind of more complex arrangements and things
like that. So we our dad, trying to be the diligent kind of
accountant father, responsible dad, goes, my kids are told that I got
to figure out something about this wholelike music business thing and see if I

(01:04:25):
can figure it out. And itjust so happened that there was a music
business conference being held at you know, a random hotel are somewhere, these
couple of people, and then itwas in legendary producer songwriter Kim Falley.
So my dad goes to this thing, and the story is basically something to
the effect of, you know,Kim says something like, you know,

(01:04:47):
how many of you guys think you'regonna how many of you guys are convinced
you're gonna make it? You know, And somebody stands up and goes,
my band's gonna make blah blah blahblah blah, and he and Kim Falley
just kind of ripped him a newone and says, there's no way in
hell that's gonna happen. And thenmy dad, being kind of bold,
stands up and goes, well,actually, my kids, who are you
know, twelve, ten and eightyears old or something actually younger than that.

(01:05:10):
You know, they're there, they'vegot it, they've got it,
they've got it, they're capable.And he goes, well, where are
they and and and my dad goes, well, they're at home, and
he goes, we'll go get them. Cool. Yeah, he's cool.
He goes go get them. Ithink I think he thought you were twelve,
eleven and fourteen year old girls.Yeah, exactly. Know. When
we came back, Kim, hesaid, well you think you can write

(01:05:31):
a song, here's a topic.But hang on, remember he all go
shore that. Before that, hehad us go up. Our dad showed
back up after the break because itwas like a lunch break. My dad
goes and gets us, brings usto the thing. Kim goes, oh,
you brought your kids. Stand themup here and let's see what they
got. And so we stand upthere and sing like three, like two
songs. I have heard of them. Yeah, so I'm like and they're

(01:05:53):
mostly like rock and roll covers orsomething like that. He kind of goes
in three bird harmony and he goes, okay, all right, and now
he goes and then he goes,I'm going to give you a test.
Write me a song with this themein the next hour. In the next
hour. Wow. So he gaveus a theme. Yeah, we went
and wrote a song, came backand he goes, huh, okay,

(01:06:14):
I mean it wasn't great. Youneed to come out to LA, but
I yeah, I mean the themewas imagine. Yeah, and we wrote
a song called Imagine. Well,juicy standing here is more than just a
bull. Yeah it was. Itwas not our greatest song, but it
was a real test. I meanto stand there and be in the you

(01:06:34):
know, lobby of a hotel andjust figure it out. And it was
more like we wrote a commercial toKim Valley about how good we were.
But you know, that's sort ofsometimes the balls you have to have,
even as a kid, just togo for it. It is important to
remember that though, because you whenyou live in your own movie, which
we all do, you forget theplot sometimes, yeah, and you don't

(01:06:57):
remember like the stories you've gone through, and that Valley led us directly to
an exciting time. Our first tripto La, our first trip to pitch
bands, to pitch labels, andhe also led us directly to our possible
end of our life as a asa B we have to say left turnad,
which was a He was had avery close relationship with Mike Curb and
Curb Records, which are notorious formaking really really terrible deals for some of
the most successful artists, but veryterrible for by the way, two of

(01:07:19):
our past guests, uh Yle loveIt is very familiar with that. Uh
and Uh Donnie Osmond you know's forexample, and also Monkeys and Rhymes.
Leon Rhymes is famously was famously frustratedwith her deal. We were offered.
We went, we we went toLA and the direct line from Kim to
other things we chose not to do, which you know, again he's been

(01:07:42):
very successful. Was not the personwe were going to get in business.
Was a direct offer from Curb Recordsin like at uh in Nashville, in
no no, in l a ohno no, no, no, you're
thinking of okay, so you haveyou have uh that's where it was Michael
Kerr, that's my that is producerof Ikalloyd's Michael Lloyd. But it was

(01:08:03):
Michael Lloyd's house for the Mike Curbfor a Curb Records offer. So my
point is that Mike Kurbs and MikeLloyd's house Mike uh for Mike's too many
Mikes. So that offer was adeal that would have owned a large percentage
of the publishing of songs that wewrote for the seventy five publisher and so

(01:08:25):
we we were advised by somebody thatwas, you know, at the time,
the only person we hired, whichwas an attorney, to not take
that deal. And so that wouldhave been was that our attorney looked at
our dad, so is this likea fun thing or like a career thing,
like do you think your kids actuallyreally want to do this? And
our dad goes, I think theywant to do it for a long time.
He goes, cool, run runaway, its run. Well,

(01:08:48):
I'm going to thank David for lettingme meet you too. Yes, Phil,
I would love to meet you oversome food. Come out hall Okay,
Well here's a question. And whenyou hear that, so we have
to find some excuse to do it, like an event for you let me
host one with or they can hostit in Tulsa, because I could be

(01:09:11):
wrong. I don't think I've everbeen to Tulsa, which is crazy and
how a flood and beer and musicconverging somewhere. Beer absolutely be in l
A at the what is it NovemberOctober, kind of early November. I
think something like that. We willget together. I would love to eat

(01:09:31):
with you guys. That would begreat. Yes, thank you, eat
some. You picked the menu.We'll bring the you know, the unwanted
dialogue around whatever subject. I'm marriedfor that I have that, I will
say, don't. That's the end. Naked Lunch is a podcast by Phil

(01:09:57):
Rosenthal and David Wilde. Theme songand music Brad Paisley, produced by Will
Sterling. Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal, David Wilde, and our consulting journalist
is Pamela Chellen. If you enjoyedthe show, share it with a friend.
But if you can't take my wordfor it, take Phil's and don't
forget to leave a good rating andreview. We like five stars. Thanks
for listening to Naked Lunch. ALucky Bastard's production.