Jay Kogen

Phil and David welcome the witty veteran comedy writer, producer, actor, nepo baby and now fellow podcaster Jay Kogen to "Lunch." Jay -- whose credits include "Simpsons," "Frasier," "Malcolm in the Middle" and, yes, "Everybody Loves Raymond" -- discusses his life, career and his own wonderful new podcast, "Don't Be Alone With Jay Kogen" -- which has featured guests like Lisa Kudrow, Bryan Cranston, Phil and, more recently, David. Follow Jay's podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dont-be-alone-with-jay-kogen/id1711124234. To learn more about building community through food and "Somebody Feed the People," visit the Philanthropy page at philrosenthalworld.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Hey, Phil, Hello deh.Who do we have on? My good
friend for at least twenty years isa man named Jay Cogan. He has
a wonderful podcast himself called Don't BeAlone with Jake Cogan. And I just
did that show and as I wastalking to my I realized, you've got
to come and do us. Andwe've had dinner. I've had dinner with

(00:24):
Jay and you number of times.Yeah, and he never said a word
to me. Supposed to be nice. And by the way, for all
you out there, he's a Simpsonswriter, a legendary Simpsons writer, a
legendary Frasier writer, a NEPO baby. Let's let's get the note Jacob,

(00:48):
Let's build the beans to the fan, food for thought, jokes on Tim
talking with our mouthsful, having fun, BEA's the cake, humble pis serving
up plass, lovely, the dressingall the side, it's naked, lush

(01:10):
clothing option. Which sandwich did youget again? I got the Manaja twa.
I don't know if remember what itis. That's as close as I'm
going to get to that. AndI got a what you got? And
we you have sing it? AnyYes? I I we can. We
can share. You can have abite you want to have a bite of
the other. I got a MattKane. Who's that I don't know.

(01:33):
I don't know. That must besomebody that's a famous first guessing it's a
sports there was seemed to be asports themed Oh really, and Mike,
they did it. They have aPaul Rubin is very sweet. That's nice,
That's very sweet. But so Igot a Matt King which is basically
a three meat sandwich, salami,turkey and something. I was like,

(01:53):
they should call it the Jake Coganexactly the least the most questionable of all
sandwiches. Matt kine Yea is aformer San Francisco Giant. And I feel
like there is a baseball theme andthe San Francisco theme to Ice. And
I can't believe how much free advertisingIke is getting on and the genie genie

(02:14):
theme. Oh Ike himself is agenie. Yeah, I got a tune
of this looks very good. Ihave to say, Ike, sandwiches love
not just sandwiches. He says,love and sandwich. You have you eaten
at Ice before? We like it? That's a staple here. And and
I ordered the Love in philoid oris a sandwich but perfect for Valentine's Day?
Jay, will you be my Valentine? I am always your value At

(02:37):
david h Look away, I'm gonnahave a bite. David's usually the Matt
Cain. Okay, let's hear ita review. Not nearly as bad as
I thought it was going to be. Why did you think it would be
bad? Because it was the leastoffensive of everything on the menu, offensive,

(02:59):
the least, the least unappealing.And then I'm eating it and it's
it's fine. Wait a minute,is that was that the wedding vale that
your wife and you were the leastyou don't By the way, that was
my my romance strategy. Jay.We went out for sandwiches when I did
your beautiful I know, and Iknow? Why is that? That place
seemed to have similar sandwich? Fine? That place also fine? We both

(03:22):
had an okay sandwich at that place. Do you have to remember that?
I do? I like it?It was fine? Yeah, it wasn't
good. It wasn't like, ohwe got to get back here. Do
you have a favorite sandwich in likeLangers? Oh? The number nineteen.
Yeah, of course we could havegotten that for my Valentine, that's that's
not I mean, I mean,this is fine. Okay, Langers,

(03:44):
you won't hold it against me yourfunny Valentine, Oh, this is fine.
Sorry, Ikes, I apologize rightnow to Ice. It doesn't really
matter. It's good. Jake Colglan, there's a great writer, comedian,
performer. Did he write this part? Nope, philosopher. He has a
wonderful podcast called Don't Be Alone withJake Cogan. I did it weeks ago.

(04:08):
I'm trying to get him on it. He's very hard to get,
not to try, and to theextent of asking, but trying. Here's
an order of things you have totry. No, I did send you
an email a while ago saying Idid know. I did find it.
Go okay, got on your phoneand you find that. I'm gonna tell
you, I just I have awhole shipload of award and music questions that

(04:32):
only you can answer. I wouldbe honored. I was just joking.
But I was listening to your podcastthis morning, and I have so many
issues from having both feeling your painin the Lisa Kudro and Your Wife episode
where you somehow you've gone to therapywith a friend but with a friend who's

(04:54):
a friend, And it was veryamazing because some of your issues with your
wife hit way too close to homeon this Valentine's d episode, including when
to wear shorts, the discussion thatI don't believe our parents. I don't
think our fathers had to sort ofget permission to wear shorts from our mothers
as much as we because they felt, as our wives do. The people

(05:17):
who wore shorts are degenerates. Sothat's that's where we're that's where they're similar.
But I, as a as aman of my generation, think shorts
is just fine. Wait, yourwife doesn't like when you wear shorts.
It's not women, tell you littlesomething, phil Women like men dressing up

(05:38):
a little bit. It's just it'sjust a fact. Monica's told me that
many many times. They like us, even schlubby guys. And you're a
little less chlevey than me, buteven schlobby guys when we dress up,
think, oh, you look sonice. Or if you buy a new
a brand new jeans or shirt that'sexactly like the old jeans you wore,
but brand would you look great?Notice that? And and uh, and

(06:01):
I don't I don't care. Asa man, I don't care. I
can unless that Monica doesn't care aboutsuch things. She never well maybe she
did. Ah, she doesn't lookat me. But that's a secrets to
staying there. That's that's that wasit, That's that's beautiful she does.
I can wear whatever I want.By the way, you should see how

(06:23):
she walks around. Beautiful, alwaysbeautiful, always she is beautiful. Anybody
want to bite him Matt Cain?Does anybody want a Matt Caine? Anyone
want to bite him? Matt Caine? This sounds outside the stadium, right
exactly? But but no, thatMy my podcast is always me getting smart,
funny, wonderful. People want totalk about my problems. That's the

(06:46):
that's the essence of my podcast.Right. How would have to charge him
after that? How could a podcastbecome even more self obsessed? That's what
you're that's what I'm doing. Verygood. It's very good, very good.
And by the way, how didyou come up with the idea of
having a podcast? Because nobody asa podcast. It was like I was
either going to open up a donutshop on Whoosh or Boulevard and be the

(07:11):
only that or do a podcast likeno, this is the difference. People
like donut that's true. Did youed the documentary about the Donut King.
I think it's called the Donut King. No, in LA. It's about
one immigrant family who built up thedonut empire in LA. It's true.
So all the franchises are owned bythat. It's like a mob's mob kind

(07:32):
of situation. No nice people,All those poor people in the donut shops
are working for the kingpin of donuts. On wedding it out every day at
three at three am, what isthe donut on the way to the airport,
the gianty donut. That's Randy's Donuts. Donut Like, that's what's so
funny. Is like when you movedto LA from New York. I moved
from New York. I think youdid originally as I did. Yes,

(07:55):
you did. Like I remember likemy first drive ever as a driver,
I didn't have a license. Igot a license right before I moved here,
and driving past Randy's thinking like that'swhat passes for history in Los Angeles.
And now it's like a religious It'slike going to an epic church.
But you're not kidding. LA isfamous for its wacky architecture. There have

(08:16):
been buildings that looked like frogs.There was a brown derby that looked like
a hat. There was all thisgoofy weird architecture, and it was it
was created here in l A andand and it's and we're kind of famous
for that and for our deco andfor the Dingbatan's actually the dingbat. The
dingbat is the apt archie, isn'tthat? Yes it is. But you

(08:37):
know those apartment buildings that have twolevels and on the first level, right
in the front is a parking spotunderneath the building. Yes, that's called
a dingbat. I had no ideawe created that here in LA. We
learned something you were You were notborn in LA. I was born in
Brooklyn, New York, right,and lived in Brooklyn until I was five,

(08:58):
So I got really tough, andyou know, the whole experience of
being a New Yorker really shaped me. And then it came to the valley.
Then I moved to LA. Doyou have any memory of that move?
I do, very very vividly.What do you think, Yeah,
where the hell are we going?What's going on? We're leaving my house
and we're going to someplace new.We're in a house or an apartment,

(09:18):
apartment, right, So you lovedbrook Cobie, so you're five, was
the only thing I knew. It'sthat I loved. It's like that's home.
But yeah, and I remember going, you know, being wheeled in
a baby carriage up and down thecold streets. We lived across from a
park. I remember sitting up closeto the heater and looking out on the
window and when it was cold,all that kind I have visceral memories of

(09:41):
Brooklyn, and then visceral memories ofcoming to Woodland Hills immediately after and having
a backyard for the first time.And did you move because your dad being
the friggin' nepo baby that you are, did your dad move here for a
TV job? He did? Hemoved. He went from the Tonight Show
to the Dean Martin Show. Sofrom the from the Johnny Carson era New

(10:01):
York Tonight Show to the Dean MartinVariety Show. And you have known you
did not as a child meet DeanMartin? Did you not? Only did
I meet Dean Martin, I'm onthe Dean Martin Show with Dean Martin,
and my sister is being held inDean Martin's arms. Being sung to and
I'm right below there. Yes,we did get to meet Dean. Yes,

(10:22):
okay, can we post it's onthe internet. We can absolutely post
it. Dean Martin, I'm goingto guess, based on the crazy book
I read about him, based onall the stories I've heard, a cool
customer and according to Bob Dylan notme, also a great singer and a
tender lover. Oh yes, sois that where you learned? Absolutely nothing

(10:46):
adorable? Dean Martin was adorable.There's nobody like there was even now.
I keep wondering, who's that personwith that largess who walks in a room
and just seems to be having agood time. Now, that's his performance
persona in life. He was notapparently not so happy all the time,
especially towards the end of his life. Torture. Yeah, but to be

(11:09):
able to just breeze into a show. I was there. It was a
Christmas episode. All the writers' kidswere on the show, and Dom Deluiz's
kids were there, and Sarah Gilbert, the Gilbert's girls were all there.
We were all in the audience,you know, this group of kids for
the Dean Martin Show. And therewas a Dennis Weaver was the guest and
the stage manager was Dean, andthey rehearsed that way for days, and

(11:33):
then one day Dean comes in withoutrehearsal and does his bid and is glided
in by standing next to Dennis Weaver. He knows his cues only by who
he's standing next to, sings asong, and then leaves. He was
so I think maybe the most relaxedperformer I've ever seen, Like, yes,
effortless, effortlessly relaxed, and youfeel good. Well, you watch

(11:54):
those old clips of the Dean Martinshow and you just feel like he's having
such a good time. So we'rehaving such a good time and just just
breezy, you know, just likelike that doesn't exist anymore, doesn't dua
lipa is only that they're trying tothink of who who is that she always
run any more of a Joey Bishop. Maybe I'm trying to remember who is

(12:15):
that person now who's like super relaxed, having fun all the time. Yeah,
by the way, you know whoI think it is? Taylor?
I think it's George Clooney, andI think and I think it's Tom Hanks
and of the people I've worked withand known at all. Those two guys
have a little of that effortless listenessa little, but they don't let they
don't jump into song. In otherwords, they're cool and they're fine,

(12:39):
but they don't then do the thingthey're famous for it as easily and as
yes blinking. He was great,And I'm going to say I preferred his
comedy, his style way more thanJerry Lewis is the other guy. Yeah,
way more. It's not even acontest, but it is to some

(13:00):
people. Some people say that JerryLewis is the funniest thing they've ever seen.
Carl Reiner used to say, thefunniest thing he's ever seen was Jerry
Lewis, the two of them doingtheir act together. Right. They went
down to a club one night,Coca Comana maybe, where they were crushing
every night. Right. But CarlReiner was a delightfully nice man, and
he said the funniest thing I eversaw eighteen times for eighteen different things.

(13:22):
Oh he said about Albert Brooks,he said about it, he said,
he has literally said it many truth. But Jerry Lewis, I think because
we weren't born in the era thatJerry Lewis appeared yes. I think his
appearance was so shocking and interesting andknew that people have a feeling towards him,
like, oh my god, JerryLewis that I can't have. Right,

(13:43):
we're coming in after Paul Rubens andall the other people have appropriated and
re you know, reimagined, andyou have to explain, right, And
it's like trying to explain Robin Williamswhat that was like. If you were
ever in a club, a comedyclub in New York and Robin Williams came
in, you were going to theabsolutely floored by the energy. Yeah,
the exactly, you've ever seen anybodylike this, and it's new and it's

(14:07):
fabulous. And Jim Carrey a littlebit like that too. There were people
that just surprised you. But thenover time it becomes like nobody our era
thinks Al Jolson is amazing, buteverybody who heard Al joson he would get
canceled in one second, exactly.But there's never been a performer who sings
that loud and that like there was. It was like pre microphone. It

(14:28):
was sort of like, oh,okay, that's right. I feel Neil
Diamond was a better jazz singer thanthan Al Jolson. You could you could
be right, I don't know thefirst singer to ever use the microphone Bing
Crosby. That's right, in ain a in an artistic way right.
Also, Dylan, I think,has quoted Dean Martin and Bing Crosby is
two of his favorite singers of allthe time. And Dean Martin has said

(14:50):
that Bing Crosby was kind of hishero and his idol. And you can
hear bing Bing's style a little bitin Dean style? Is it nutty professor?
Where? Uh? Jerry Lewis sortof does Dean Martin? He sort
of like has he plays you knowwhat he's doing his real self? Oh?
Really? Yeah? If you evermet I got to meet did you

(15:11):
ever meet him? Yeah, Jerry, horrible, horrible, horrible person you
had. The kind of childhood inyour dad was a much bigger deal than

(15:33):
I will ever be. But yourdad, my dad just told me that.
David I said, I was cominghere. Yeah, but I imagine,
like I always I always tell mykids who's a great guy? And
I'll tell my kids who's an ass? Uh? Do you like your dad?
She would stop saying that about me? Yeah? What star? Did

(15:54):
your dad love and what star didyour dad not love? Well? The
star stars that broke his heart.One of the stars that broke his heart
was Danny K, who he lovedso dear growing up so much, and
then he got to work with themseveral times. Heartbreaking, how mean and
mean I didn't even imagine. Ican confirm this to be true. My

(16:19):
uncle, my mother's uncle, arelative, did his films at the United
Nations, and I never heard agood word about Danny K. A special
destroy your heroes in front of you. He's fabulous, Like you watch the
Court Jester. There's nobody better.It's so good about that album. Remember
the album give Me a Drink ofWater. I grew up with that.
I know well. I mean aswe know. Don't meet your heroes,

(16:44):
artists and people two different things.Kind of you gotta take him to percent
of the time. I can honestlysay that I've been lucky enough to meet
almost everyone I love. Yes,your hell business, I want to ask,
so sweet so and most people arereally nice. Most people are nice,
I think, But there are peoplewho are not nice. I don't
my father. It's crushing when myfather doesn't have bad things to say about

(17:07):
almost anybody's like Phil. He's happyto meet people. He likes people,
and is there been a couple ofpeople that just really who did he love?
Who were two of the people ora few of the people who I
mean he loves, He loves NewHeart, he loves Calbernet, he loves
I mean Steven Edie, he loveduh Freddie Roman he loved I mean,

(17:27):
it's the list of people he lovesare endless, endless, and it's can't
you can't, There's no there's noend to that list. It's it's fabulous.
And he's very He was so gropBrooklyn boy whose father made you know,
t Shirts Garmento. To become toactually be a writer and move to

(17:48):
California and live a life in showbusiness is beyond his wildest dreams. So
so he's a thrilled and happy ninetyyear old guy who got to live out
his fantasies. Did you make adecision to follow in his footsteps? Did
he encourage you? Did he Imade? I made a really strong decision
not to follow in his footsteps.I knew immediately from watching him growing up

(18:12):
that I did not want to bea writer, that being a writer seems
miserable. He was in his angstroom with deadlines and quiet don't play,
and annoyed me and my sister andseemed unhappy so much of the time.
And it's like, okay, that'sbad. But when I was on the
Dean Martin shows, these other peopleseem to be having fun. I'll be

(18:33):
in show business, but I won'tdo the horrible job my father does.
I'll do something else. So Itried to be an actor and a comedian,
and I did many many things.I was a runner, and I
worked in special effects. I triedto find my niche, and what apparently
my niche was, to the godsof irony, was writing, So now
I had to become Ultimately, Iwas doing okay as an actor. I

(18:56):
got a few parts here and afew parts there, but not thing that
I didn't break out. And thenI was doing uh pa work and different
things, and getting you know,interest from production to do this and that.
But then my my buddy and I, Wally Walladarski, decided right spec
script for the It's Gary Shanling showwe were on, and people like that

(19:17):
and eventually hired us to work.Jim Brooks eventually hired us to work for
him for The Simpsons. Well,Jim Brooks, Heidi Perlman, Sam Simon
and Jerry Belson those four. Uh, the greatest show of all time.
I mean that's quite the great showof all time. Simpsons. Oh,
yes, the Simpsons. I wasworking on the Tracy Omen Show, so
I thought I thought you were sayingthe Tracy Omen Show was the greatest.

(19:38):
That was my first job. Butyou Simpsons. Then we transferred over to
this. Yes, yes, yes, uh, I mean that's a that's
a fantastic story. What a lessonto anyone listening who wants to get into
the show business. It's not alwaysa straight line, and you take whatever
job you can to get on theset. You say yes to everything,
Yes, yes to everything people,which means I blew so many dudes.

(20:00):
Hello, yeah people. Uh,I remember that's what it's my special Valentine
Jacob, Well, what is Valentine'sDay without a mention of It's nothing?
There would be no Valentine's Day withoutFelicia. But is this a case of
nature versus nurture? That it's justin you? You write your first spec

(20:26):
Gary Shandling, and it gets made. Here's the thing. I looked back
on that spec I read that specscrip about ten years ago. It's not
great. It's okay, but notgreat by my standards, by your standards
and what you become and what showspotent anyone else. It showed potential,
and that's yes. But here's thething that made and my I will back

(20:48):
up a little bit. My fatherdid also did not want me to be
a writer. My father wanted meto be a lawyer or an agent or
something that had a steady paycheck thathe wouldn't have to worry about me.
Because if you suddenly go in tothe arts, you're fucked. You have
to then go from job to joband gig to gig and just squeeze out
a living. My father had noidea that everybody would be doing that,

(21:10):
but that's what it was. Butthe reason I had the the stuff to
be a comedy writer, at leastat that era, was because my father
certainly trained me. He laughed atonly certain things and so and his affection
was connected to his laughter. Ohso your room, the first room you

(21:30):
were in was your own bedroom.You Yes, you had to get a
laugh in your own I had toget a laugh for my dad, and
he would often punch me up orcorrect my joke or something like that.
I got schooled about what humor was, and because I wanted my father's love
and affection, I learned how tomake him laugh. And I still think
you're going to get it home.Did you ever see the Woody Allen documentary

(21:52):
where he goes on tour with hisband? Yes? Whatbmanbman? That's it.
The last scene of that movie,yeah, is for all of us.
I know. He goes home.Have you ever seen this? So
he goes to his parents apartment.His parents are still alive. Woody Allen
is sixty whatever, maybe seventy,maybe seventy. His parents are in their
nineties, right, and his fathersays what he says, you never wanted

(22:18):
me to go into the show business. No, you should have been a
pharmacist. You still think that,Well, at least you'd have a trade,
you'd have something new that right.The ever got is that the respect
of his parents. I mean thathe did everyone a public service. Who's
ever in show business? We're lookingfor approval from their parents, right.
The validation that you seek is notforthcoming and is not it would come from

(22:41):
without hills come from within. Phil'sparents loved him so much, it was
so obvious. But I was inthe room after. I thought it was
like the week that everyone's raiment wasending, and still like I heard your
I think it was your dad sayhe was looking at some pilot that wasn't
going anywhere, and he goes,said, Philip done. He goes,
you could have a creamer type giveme advice. Yeah, so now what

(23:07):
right, last night of the show, we're having a little party. It's
been going pretty well. Yeah yeah, so now what. Yeah, I
know you you have to put it, put away, Yeah, put it
away. But it stays when yourparents say it, it stays with you.
Yeah. But I mean they're yourparents. They're gonna be they're going
to be giving you bad advice.They're gonna be giving you. They're gonna

(23:29):
be spreading their worry onto you.That's what parents do. It is hilarious
that I got to I got towork with the President of the United States.
I got to direct Bill Clinton ina little video and write for him.
And I telling my parents this onthe phone. And I was at
the White House right and I directedthe President and I and Richard was there
but that and we did it together, you know, And I tell them,

(23:55):
oh, that's that's unbelievable. Whatelse is new? Right? And
right, it's not enough. It'snot enough. It's not enough now.
It has to be enough for youright now. My conversely, everything is
enough. My parents are very proudof me. They're so proud of you.

(24:15):
So and they were and then it'slike they're they're the parents. Oh
oh, I thought your parents areproud of me. My parents don't give
a shit about the Actually, mymy, my mother and father actually love
you, and they let they watchsomebody feed Phil all the time, and
they have to come here and plugmy show. Well, I don't have
to hear yours. I'm an actualfan of your show, and I'm a

(24:37):
fan of this podcast. You should. You should come on that show.
I've listened to they I know thispodcast. I listened to it every week.
Matt Goldry, I listened to Ialways listen to every episode. The
Grammy thing that you did, thebest of the Grammy Thing was fantastic,
even though I'd heard every one ofthose clips. That's all. David knows
everyone in music and and we Igot to go to the Grammy rehearsal this

(24:59):
year with Lily, which is whichyou go to every year. Don't think
act like I'm saying this year becausethis year was particularly amazing. It's it's
amazing every year that the Grammys.I twittered you or something like talking about
how the Grammys are the greatest awardshow. It is because it's all entertainment.
It's completely entertaining. It's fabulous,it's fantastic, and you know,

(25:22):
I think it's very special. Likethe Oscars. It's not. It's not
at least have you know, bigproduction numbers. Not I don't even have
that. It's boring, and usuallya movie you didn't like or didn't see
wins. It's been diminished by theten award shows that came before it.
Now, no, you've seen everybodywin a red. But I can go

(25:44):
to I can watch the Grammys andbe thoroughly entertained from top to bottom and
love every bit of it and noteven care who wins the awards, just
watching great music being performed, bestperformances by the best people in the world.
Yeah, it's amazing. Hey didyou hear Beyonce's new country but the
peppy One? Yes? I lovethat. I did not hear. Oh,

(26:04):
it's very good. Let's play alittle this Saint Texas they know,
hold them they are cut down,down, down down. So polexis toyo
keysusound round round round and not adamned if snow dance with you comos some

(26:26):
sugar on me, honey too.It's a real live again and a real
live hold down, don't be abitch. Come take it to the plug
for you know, Beyonce needs aplug. Yeah, she does, she
needs some help. Yeah, buthold on while we're doing while we're playing
things. Yes, let's also we'llput this in post. But let's play
a little of Jay's podcast, which, because it's not it is not like

(26:49):
every other podcast. It is evenmore deep, self obsessed and fun than
most. And I want to playa little bit of Lisa Kudro giving insight
into your marriage that you have nevergotten. She's smart, she's very smart.
One of the reasons you're here isbecause through the years you've been able
to say what she means to me. Yeah, and I think you've been

(27:12):
able to translate what I mean tosay to her because you and I.
He's not trying to blank, he'sjust saying a fact, you know,
we're not without her. I understandLisa and I think a lot alike,
but I think a really a lotof like, no, we prefer rational.
Yeah, and you and and Michelle, Lisa's husbands are kind of very

(27:33):
similar way too emotional, I couldand yes you have, that's true.
Another podcast. So what are yousaying what I'm saying? Ask Lisa what
you're saying. I forget what we'resaying. Oh right, right, okay,
because you are triggered or traumatized.But the result of that is that

(27:55):
you're not taking her in for whoshe is, because she's not trying to
manipulate you. So when you respondas if that means you're not seeing her
or taking her, well, I'mstill scared of her. I'm still scared
of her too, right, Yeah, I would say that's That's my favorite
thing about her is that that thatintelligence comes through even when she's playing a

(28:19):
ditzy character, right, that thatyou see the choices, you see the
you know, it's like Tommy Smothers, Yeah, played dumb, yes,
but you saw the brain working behindit. Yeah. I mean he he
clearly was a genius, genius.But but the dumb character I believed in
the moment when I was supposed tothe dumb character. But you also got

(28:41):
even as a kid, I gotthis. Did you get this? That
he was there was a sly,little almost wink to us. I'm not
that stupid. I didn't get that. I got that. I got he
was being playful. I got theslyesir, smirky smile. They're being playful,
not necessarily I'm smarter or I'm smarterthan I'm giving. I didn't.
I didn't put that on it.I delayed it so well. But he

(29:02):
was smarter. And he's the olderbrother, that's right. Yes, he
plays the younger brother, and he'sthe politically minded yes, right. And
he's the one who got them intotrouble. Right. He knew that he
could, by using the character,say things that maybe someone else could tell

(29:32):
us about the Simpsons writer's room.Uh, well, I doesn't know.
Non stop laughing, I don't hardwork. What do you think, Phil,
you've been in a writer's room?Is it non stop laughing? A
lot of the time, it's alot of laughing, a lot of laughing,
And then there's hard work. There'sa lot of hard work. It's
never it's never non stop laughing.People come up to you and say,
oh, your job's so wonderful.We must be laughing all day long.

(29:53):
It's like, yeah, we work, we laugh plenty, but we have
to work a lot, and there'sa lot of times with everybody staring at
the table thinking about something and notcoming up with anything for a while.
Of course I know this, butit must have been extra hard because the
highest joke per second ratio is thebiggest. I mean, there's more jokes

(30:18):
per pound in that show of everykind, even stuff in the background.
But that was easy. You know, we're all twenty something comedy nerds,
and it was just like, andwe're raking a cartoon, So we have
six months to jam joke after jokeafter joke into any particular episode. It's
a six month, you know,from beginning to end process on an assembly

(30:41):
line that's constantly making more. Sowe're piling jokes from the moment we're conceiving
a show to the outline, tothe first draft, to second, third,
fourth draft, to the storyboards.More jokes are coming, and more
comedy is coming. Is it's justbeing shoved in there. At least when
we were doing it, and wewere making each other laugh. But our

(31:03):
job was to make good, smart, funny jokes that made us laughed.
But the ferocity and velocity of them, that's Sam Syon. He said,
we can go at a much.We can go at at a at a
faster rate than anybody else because we'redoing a cartoon. We can do this
faster. And he did, Wow, and what And knowing Jim Brooks,

(31:27):
it's that's how we know it's notJames L. Brooks, it's Jim brook
Yeah. Yeah, but it youknow, for those of you who may
not know, started in TV Roomtwenty two and Mary Tyler Moore show,
The b All and end All.To me, I believe he was great.
Armis Brooks as the first Wow,that was his first I think he
wrote to my mother of the car, Yes, he did, was his

(31:49):
first thing made Alan Burns, AlanBurns, Yeah, okay, so and
then of course terms of Demmer broadcastnews. What I'm getting at is that
this is character comedy, storytelling.Things play out. Yeah, the cartoon
joke joke, joke joke joke ofthe Simpsons is not really his style.

(32:10):
Did Was there any kind of conflictbetween what Jim was after or is it
what it seems to be the perfectmarriage of character comedy. This is real,
a family you could believe was afamily as as cartoonish as it is,
in fact more real than a lotof live action shows in terms of
relationships. And then this cartoon sensibilityoverlaid. Yeah. Well, Jim was

(32:36):
very adamant that this is a family, family show, and every episode is
about a family issue, right,and about something that has a depth to
it, an emotional depth to itis should it be about a husband and
wife relationship, or a parent childrelationship, or about friendship, or about
something some always something to lock itinto humanity. That's Jim all the time,

(33:00):
and it's fantastic. And then youknow this bunch of spectromy writers sitting
at the time who don't know whatrelationships are. I just say yeah,
yeah. And then a funny thinghappens, and a funny thing happens in
a funny thing, and it wasup to Jim Brook. It was up
to Jim and Sam and Matt,I guess, to sort of melded into
that composite. What a collaboration,Yeah right, I mean it seems to

(33:23):
be the perfect collaboration. Where wasSimon, Sam Simon's background, I don't
know. Well, Sam was awriter on Shears and Taxi. Yeah,
he also, earlier in his careerhad worked from the Fat Albert cartoons.
So he came from animation and fromSitcom Royalty, like he was Sitcom Royalty
and then he was then he wasalso you know, a cartoon guy an

(33:45):
animation. He redrew a lot ofthings. He knew about animation very well.
So he's gone. But he wasa great character. I only knew
him through I think Howard Stern.He would go on and talk about animals.
Sure, he loved animals, didn'tleave to dogs. He did leave
his fortune too well. He setup a foundation that fed homeless people,

(34:06):
people who couldn't eat humans, humanbeings, and also take care of animals.
Very nice. Yeah, uh,what a legacy. It was where
he gave me my start. Hewas my mentor. He was. I
owe a lot to Sam and andhe was a complete nutbag. But also
yeah, I mean he's problematic.He's problematic people. He would scream at

(34:30):
people, he would yell, hehad feuds. He was like a problematic
Matt Graening. I'm sure you've metMatt Granning. Absolutely the nicest, singularly
nicest person in the world. Imean, if anybody had to become a
billionaire, you'd want Matt Graining tobe a billionaire. He's adorable, he's
nice, he's he cares a onehundred children the right things he does,
and a hundred wives. But uh, but Matt paired with Sam, and

(34:54):
then there was this feud Matt.It forced Matt to get angry at Sam,
and Sam was furious at Matt allthe time, all the time.
And in that room, who wasthe funniest joke machine you ever saw?
I don't know if you were there, including myself, excluding yourself, very
yeah, everyone excludes you in thisconversation. Were you there in the Conan

(35:16):
error at all? Yeah? Hecame after me. How was Conan?
Well, I mean, he's aNonStop joke machine, and to the point,
like I was, I was theannoying guy who wouldn't shut up until
Conan showed up, and then Iwas like he then he immediately became the
annoying guy who wouldn't shut up,Like will you please be quiet? Is
what we would tell Conan. Andhe could not he could not stop himself

(35:38):
from just making a joke. Ortalking to me doing it, and and
I feel for him because I'm thatguy. Like I certainly was that guy
at a certain point. And sowhen you say guy won't show up,
we call that. I wonder ifit's the same you say the word lou
room monkey, room monkey. WhatLuschneider might be that room monkey. But

(35:59):
right, but before or I hada show. Yes, I've got to
be the rumor, right exactly.Okay, that's the fun part. It
is a fun part because it's notyour responsibility. You make a joke and
you have a good time. Ohmy god. And then you know that
Jay worked on Raymond. He dida show for us. Yes, we
had a great It was the best, one of the best show business experiences

(36:19):
I've ever had my entire life.Tell us about it because it was difficult.
He's working on one of the greatestshows on television. And it's not
like an open call to people.Everybody can come work on the show.
But he extends himself and says,yeay, you want to do one,
and went I was on the samelot and they want to do one.
I said, are you kidding?Of course I want to do one.

(36:42):
It's like, okay, great,and so very lucky to get him.
And I think of, you know, eighteen things that happened to me in
my life, because that's what youdo when everybody loves raymondy the issues that
happen in your life. And Ibring these things in and then, you
know, one of them kind ofhooks him a little bit and he says,
what if it's not what you saidbut something closer to this, And
I, having worked in a millionaires, like, yes, fantastic, yeah,

(37:07):
because it's his vision and he's givingme, you know, crumbs of
what the show should be. Andis I do my bad? I take
the I write an outline, giveit back to them. They change it
and make it what they want itto be. I do that. I
write a first draft and turn itin and they make it a magical,
beautiful show and it's it's it was. You did a phenomenal job. I

(37:30):
believe it was Marie's glass. That'sright where he gets new glasses. And
I believe correct me if I'm wrongthat Doris submitted that yes, for her
Emmy consideration, and one one ofher Doris and Emmy, that's right,
that's fine. And she said shesent me a case of champagne. She
did, okay, she said,she sent me nothing, absolutely nothing,

(37:55):
not a letter, not a word, nothing. It's fine. How do
you know? It just hasn't arrivedyet. It's coming very late. Well,
but I will say this, listen, I knew going in I'm gonna
be rewritten. It's not gonna bewhat I turned into it. But I
felt like, okay, I waspart of the process that I got and
I got to see his process andsee how this particular sausage was made because

(38:20):
it's made like no other sausage onTV. And it was such a great
experience. It was so pleasant.The writers are all great. I got
to go to lunch with the guys, and that's like essential part of being
a Raymond so I got a tasteof it. It was fantastic, and
it's on my list of credits nowI'm I'm a Raymond writer. It's absolutely
I listed as every as much asThe Simpsons and as much as Frasier or

(38:44):
anything else. Now, speaking ofyour credits, yeah, let me go.
Let me see what I sat myselfearlier today, the ones I need
to ask about a show that mywife and I loved, and I never
you never hear anyone mention it,then stay right. Tell me about your
Ned and Stacy experience. Fantastic.Michael Whitehorn, who's a genius like Phil,

(39:07):
created the show, not as muchas Phil right, but a like
in this like like like different differentkinds, but they're they're they're both pretty
great, created this wonderful show.Uh and uh it's it was a Deborah
Messing and Thomas Hayden Church. ThomasHayden Church. And then there was an

(39:30):
old premise which is basically, youhave to be married pretend to be married
for a job. And there wasa show like this in the nineteen fifties.
I forgot my pretend wife for something. There was a show that exists
predated this, but that was thepremise of this show. It was on
Fox, I Believe and and hadtwo seasons and it was a fun really

(39:51):
smart show because of the writing.The writing was smart, and Thomas Hayden
Church was really funny and Deborah Messingwas adorable, and so it was a
fine show. But it has nositcoms have no shot or had no shot
on Fox. They still think theyhave no shot anywhere anymore. But they
certainly didn't have a shot there onthat weird network. Okay, next credit,
But Michael Whitehorn and he also madeKing of Queens and he did many

(40:15):
other great things. Happily Divorced withFran Drescher, Yes, what was that
experience like with the Union Leader?I didn't know she acted. Apparently Fran
Dresher when she came to Los Angeleswith her husband Peter lived in my house
when my mom and dad. Mymom was friends with Dave Dresher, her

(40:36):
from high school, which was heruncle, and they need a place to
stay, so I knew them fromthe beginning of their lives, and she
and her husband, Peter would staywith us. And then years later they
got divorced because Peter turned out tobe gay. I think Peter knew,
but he came out of the closet. And years later she's had done the
Danny and a million things, andshe was doing this show Happily Divorced,

(40:58):
and she said, would you shedidn't say. The show hired me and
I work with Fran in a totallydifferent world of a professional world. And
Fran Dresser is don't is incredibly smart, incredibly funny, knows who she is
and what her audiences want, andshe tries to give it. She works

(41:19):
very very hard, and the presidentand she's the president of SAG in a
way that was very interesting, agood counterpoint to the w GA in terms
of she had the humanity that wedidn't have. Well, that first speech
when she felt betrayed by the peoplethat she was negotiating with and led down
the wrong you know, they ledher astray, and her righteous anger in

(41:39):
that speech was so galvanizing and sogreat. Right, but we could have
hoped that she would have been wiseenough to know that she would be led
astray by the people who she's negotiatingwith. That's actually their job discuss exact
Yeah, but what was great wasthat, Oh, you may do this
to other people, but you're notgoing to do it to me, And
she was. I love her.I think she's But let me stop you

(42:00):
from asking me a question. Iwant to ask you both questions, which
is you have led very both ofyou have. But you phil have led
a life where you got to meetall your idols, just about almost all.
You too, have have jumped intothe world from Frank Sinatra onto every

(42:22):
single to work with the greatest artistsin the life. That is that the
goal is that? Was that agoal of your setting? Cause that was
never a goal of mine to meetall those people. But you seem to
have met everybody. And I don'twant to say. You have stories,
amazing stories of Jack Nicholson, andyou have amazing stories of Bruce Springsteen and

(42:42):
Prince I couldn't. I think Iwould like that life, but I don't
think I have the capacity to sortof zero in on on on how to
do that. I have a theory, go you go first, No,
no, please, I think youmanifest what you really love. I think
if it's a priority to you anythingin your life, whether it's become an

(43:05):
actor, become a writer, workingshow business, I must really love pencils
because I'm surrounded by pretzels wherever Igo, is that it is his manifest
love. And so for somebody likeme, Yes, I'm a giant Bruce
Springsteen fan. Right, so Iwant to meet Bruce Springsteen. Then I'm

(43:28):
gonna find a way somehow. Right, if I keep putting it out there,
I'm going to meet him. I'vemet him now, I can't even
count on many times. I don'tthink he remembers me. But you know,
I don't even need to be hisfriend. I think he has enough
friends. He doesn't need me,right and and similarly to you, is
this for me? I think whathappened is music meant so much to me.

(43:49):
It so defined everything I love andwho I am. That that got
me to my first career at RollingStone. I just, you know,
I felt I was lucky. Ifell into Esquire right out of college and
then Jan went Er hired me away. So that was Rolling Stone was.
And what's funny is I was ona podcast yesterday and they introduced me is
Rolling Stones David Wilde, and I'mlike, I haven't been Rolling Stones David

(44:10):
Wilde in like twenty years. I'vebeen a TV writer. You know.
Well I left the Simpsons thirty yearsago and he's talking to me about that.
So you are still rolling Stones,David Wilde. You are still.
But then I feel like I'm likeyour dad in that I came out to
La to sort of you know,Jan dragged me out here, and then
I fell into this TV world andthat has given me this second life where

(44:36):
everybody I met thirty years ago sometimeson this podcast, but like at the
Grammys, everything I was feeling waslike these weird thirty year old feelings of
like Billy Joel being there doing afirst song in three decades, and I
like when he was wrapping up hisrecording career until now I was doing the
cover story on him and Rolling Stones, So it's like full circle moment.

(44:59):
Joni Mitchell was literally the eight tracttape that my mom played on carpools that
made me fall in love with music, along with Neil Diamond, h Tracy
Chapman, all these these things arejust what's amazing is if you love something
enough, yeah, you do manifestit like Pretzel. You haven't done that,
you haven't. There hasn't been someonethat you've wanted to meet that you
I've met on many people, butis there someone? Is there? Is

(45:21):
there still a bucket list of peoplethat you would like to meet, because
we'll make it happen right now.Yeah, of course I know someone you
want to meet. You and yourson need to meet Brad Paisley. Yes,
writer, and we should meet yourb Is there a song that we
should play by your son? Yourson is a singer songwriter, writ singer
songwriter. I mean there's there's asong that uh, there's a song I

(45:45):
love of my sons called The inBetween, which is on only on YouTube
because he's saying it live at theit's on the podcast The Kennedy Center.
Yes, now, it's not asong that my son loves, but I
love it exactly cause I think sometimesartists don't know what the fuck there their
thing is. This is a greatsong. It makes me cry. It's

(46:06):
beautiful. Is it about you?It's called Daddy, It's called no.
It's about this time in your life, about anticipation, about before something starts,
while something's ending, and it's abouta really special moment. And my
son thinks it's it's okay, he'lllike it. He'll like it later maybe
somebody. But it is gorgeous andbeautiful. And you know it's not it's

(46:30):
old fashioned. I mean, forme, it's my it's my style of
music. It's also a little bithis style of music. But he's an
old fashion a little bit of anold fashioned singer. Yeah, and he's
a singer songwriter. Charlie Cogan koge, N, Spotify, Amazon,
Apple, wherever you want, youshould listen to Charlie Cogan. But here
let's hear a little bit of inbetweens because father knows best the one road

(46:53):
maybe conftly not gonna click my heelsand land back on my feet. I
want to lose my path in aplace too wrong and when I least expected
a fine home. Beginnings always makeyou wish that you were stronger, And

(47:15):
when it's done, you want tostay a little longer, memory stay,
but the moment's fade unseen. Iwant to live in the in between.
And I tell you a sorry aboutfathers and sons that just like I love
is that and where you have tolearn, Like because you play out your

(47:37):
issues with your own father, occasionallyyou have to sort of learn what your
kids issues are going to be withyou, and they have to tell you.
Because you think we all think we'regood guys. We all think like,
oh, yeah we're not. Butwe know we're fucking up. Yeah,
we know we're messing up our kids. My favorite song of all time
is Fucking Up by Neil Young andCrazy Horse. But my son, once

(47:57):
after his Bermitzvah, said Dad,I want to thank you, and it's
like, you know, I waslike, what do you want to need
to thank me for? He goes. I knew the exact moment in the
service when you had a joke cometo your mind by something that happened in
the congregation and I knew, andI because I knew, you were trying
not to say it and you didn'tsay it, and I thank you.

(48:20):
That means the world to me.And it's like, wow, you realize,
Okay, the greatest joke you'll evertell is the one you don't tell
in front of your son and stealall the attention. I actually have never
had that. Yeah that I havebeen thanked many times for things I didn't
say. I and my son,so that's I understand that one hundred percent.

(48:45):
But yeah, it's it's interesting.I had my son on the podcast
and I and I asked him whatdid I fuck up on? What are
the things that that you wish Idid better? And it's he has a
very interesting point of view, andmostly the thing that he wishes I did
more of, which is the thingmy dad did to meet that he didn't
like, which was pushback, makehim fight a little bit more for things,

(49:07):
not me saying yes and which Itend to do, but say to
to put a barrier, maybe saydon't be a singer songwriter, Maybe maybe
you should reconsider something, you know, so that he could have find his
passion and see where it really lays. Because if he knows, if he
had to fight me to do it, he knows in his heart that's really

(49:28):
what he wants to do. Ourfriend Matt Goldich just was on SETH Myers
last night because he has a newcomedy special on YouTube. Yes, my
favorite line that he did was,you know, they're banning books now,
and in my day they didn't haveto ban books, they just had to
assign them. And then it's absolutelytrue true. I don't know if you
know these characters, but like inmy world of like, because again I

(49:52):
fell into this weird variety television worldthat your dad was also connected to,
and you meet the craziest characters inthat world. Include there was a guy
named Walter Miller. I don't knowif you Okay, did you know Walter
Miller. Walter Miller was a hugementor in my life and one of my
favorite people I ever knew, andone of those people about whom it's always
said, oh boy, he wouldhave been canceled every day now. But

(50:13):
I was once on a plane withhim, and I was flying next to
a woman who was horrible and notattractive, and at one point he walked
over to sort of, you know, give me some laughs while I was
on this flight, and she saidshe heard a bark in the back of
the plane and said, excuse me, do they allow dogs on this flight?

(50:36):
And I looked at him and I'mlike, no, do not.
Do not make the joke that Iknow you are going to make. And
I watched him bite his tongue andit was very hard for that generation of
funny wise ass. So now you'recanceled just for recounting that. Exactly,
yes, exactly exactly. What arewomen objects to you, David? Not
as often as I'd like, that'strue, But I, yeah, go

(50:59):
back to eight questions ago. Ofcourse there are people I want to meet,
and of course there are people whoI would have loved to meet and
didn't. I never got to meetMike Nichols me neither, Yeah, I
would, but yeah, all right, but the people I have met,
I met Elvis like you. Imet Elvis Costello forty five times, and
every single time it's a very unsatisfyingexperience because I have nothing to say to

(51:21):
him other than you like your music. But there's nothing else to say,
what I really want to do ishave a forty year relationship with him,
And now I feel about Springsteen bea friend. I love that with Springsteen
too. Yes, but I don'tcare. It's never going to happen more.
When I was a kid, like, here's so we have to settle
for each other. Yes, that'strue, but we have. But they've

(51:42):
given us, they've influenced us,and so there's parts of us some people
should remain on the mountain. There'spart of you that thinks you're still born
to run. There's part of youthat thinks that. But nobody in Bruce
Bringsteen's audience is born to run anymore. They're all staying exactly where they are.
Well, he says it on Broadway. He goes, I'm mister bunt,
I run right. I live fiveminutes from where I was born.

(52:04):
Of course, of course, Andthat's true. Like the fantasy of what
he was selling when we were inhigh school was perfect for when we were
in high school. But it's nota reality. But how great about that
he builds not just a character andentire ethos that theology survive. Yeah,
yeah, it's fabulous. It isfantastic. David I'm not going to sit
here and have you bad mouth BruceSpringsteen. I know why do you hate

(52:25):
him. I'm the one who hastickets. I had tickets, my wife
bought me. My wife again isValentine's Day. I'm not sure she likes
me at all. However, shedid become a verified fan to buy Bruce
Springsteen tickets like the first day,pay a lot of money, and then
it was that was canceled and pushed, postponed till coming up in a few

(52:46):
weeks. And I cannot believe I'mso excited to see him. What makes
you think you've both said my mywives don't my wife doesn't love me?
Where's ABU say? I know you'rejoking, but like there's of course,
our relationships have changed over the courseof many, many years. How long
have you been married? Thirty years? This year thirty years. We're thirty

(53:09):
four years. I'm twenty seven years. Yeah, and remember that you're still
in the honeymoon passion that we hadwhen we first met. And then we
turned into this marriage and this littleadventure and then fighting, and we're all
now at the stage where we're fine. Everything's fine, we love each other,
we have accepted all the foibles,and they have accepted all the foibles

(53:31):
in us, it's not going toget We're getting worse, we're getting older,
we're getting you know, just gonnagetting sicker. We're gonna forget things,
We're gonna and yet we're going tostay together forever. We're at that
point where that's just what it's goingto be. And that's a very interesting,
comfortable Why do you come here andtell me this? But isn't that
an interesting place to be? Butalso when the kids get out of the

(53:52):
housees too. Now you have eachother right, and now you look at
each other, Hey, we didthat right and happy. The happiest we've
ever been is seeing our kids hapenand you can rediscover yourselves a little bit
in different ways because you don't havethe assignment of the children. Yeah,
we can travel together, we cando things. Yeah. That has been
one of the most amazing things,is like traveling again, the two of

(54:14):
us, and it's like the firsttime we did it. We went and
you know, it's always a littlebit like, boy, we're gonna run
out of things to say. It'ssort of like on the first state her
her mother, my friend's mother,told her if it gets if things get
too quiet, say talk about thedifferences between the coasts, right, because
I had come from New York orwhatever, and I've always I still think
that it's like on the flight toFrance, if we run into things to

(54:35):
say, we can talk about thedifferences between the coast. But your podcast
taught me something that may get methrough another few months of my marriage,
which is the way you were speakingto your wife at Lista Gudro, which
and having written two friends books andbeen around those people, it was very
interesting to hear her insight into it. But you I heard you recognizing a
flaw that I have, which islike, I think I'm a good guy

(54:59):
because I'll go Can I run outand get the groceries? Can I do
this? Can I do that?And I heard your wife sort of and
Lisa breaking it down that she doesn'twant you to do it right, she
and we think, and I haveyour personality this way too. I think
I'm getting credit. I want agreat guy. I am a hero.

(55:19):
Like no, no, you're stilljust annoying exactly. Just we'll do it
some other way. Yeah, you'reabsolutely right. I annoy my wife and
she has annoys me in many ways. We love each other, but we
have to forgive, and we doforgive each other's foibles. It's just the
way it is now after twenty sevenyears, there's no choice. We're not
changing. Nothing's going to change.But just to back on travel, Phil

(55:42):
was responsible. We had a greattrip this year to my wife and I
went to Florence and to Paris.And Phil gets these emails on a daily
basis from people. It's like,where should I go? What should I
do? With the He kindly toldme where I should go and what I
should do in Florence and in Paris, and we had the greatest trip of

(56:05):
all time. Nothing makes me Andin the where what hotel we would stay
at, and what restaurants we shouldsee, and the museums and all the
kind of thing and whether we shouldhave a guide or not a guide and
all this kind of stuff. Themost incredible vacation we've had in years and
years, and Phil was the responsible. Feel I feel useful, I feel
like I have It's important that youfeel like you have a purpose. Well,

(56:27):
but Jay, you have a purpose. What's my purpose? Make the
world laugh? You are so funny? My purpose? Yes, not anymore.
What do you mean you're still doingit, You're still funny. You
made me leaught today I have.The world is not three people in front
of an I sent it is.You don't know the reach of this show,
Okay, I really don't. It'strue, but it's like it's it's
as I get older, of thepeople at this table listen to that show,

(56:50):
that that's true, total market penetration, that's right. As I get
older, I feel less viable inthe world of comedy. Uh And is
that and we all do just beingall in the world in general? Right,
But I've trained my whole life tobe one thing, which is like
this comedy guy. Yes, you'restill that guy, and you're having younger
people look up to you and askyour advice and also ignore me. Like

(57:15):
that's that's okay. As as weget older, that's part of the thing,
the less viable thing, the genera. New generations come and they create
their own thing and so then andwe're not supposed to understand it. I
agree, But we're supposed to evolve. I have. My question is what
am I supposed to evolve to?Because whatever you love, here's a little
model for me of like how Ithink the ultimate like for the Grammys.

(57:38):
One of the things the last fouryears, Trevor Noah has been involved,
and there were years when laj washosting there was no other like comedy writers
or whatever. Thank god you raninto him on that plane exactly. It
was it literally, it literally waslife changing for me, and I think
a little for him. But Iwill tell you not just Trevor, who
was unbelievably wonderful. And when Iwent to Paris this summer, he was

(58:00):
playing there and we got to hangout and it was amazing. But the
amazing thing about for me is Ihave fallen in love with his writers,
those Daily show guys and there andwomen. They are diverse, they're much
younger than me on a certain level. They should view me as the old
fart and I should review resent themas the young kids. And it's the
opposite. It's like, in aweird way, there's enough distance and not

(58:22):
enough competitiveness that we just I lovethem. I cannot believe, well you
can trust them to jay Z.So there's a thing, yeah, something,
Yeah, they do recognize my OGstatus and my wife is always amused
because like my wife is not impressed. No one's wife is impressed with them
after two decades or three decades.When I first started working with Beyonce,

(58:45):
she would be the definition of thesweetest, easiest person on earth you could
deal with. She is a delightfulperson every time I've dealt with her.
But now it's like it is verysimilar for the Giant Corporation. Well,
now it's like a first lady andyou know, and by the way,
I last year dealt with missus JoeBiden. It was a lot easier than
getting to Beyonce because it's you know, she is. They are just a

(59:07):
king and queen. They are wealthy. But you build walls. You have
to build walls at a certain pointbecause just to survive, there's too many
people reaching out for you to stayhave a piece of you, will want
things you just that's just you gotto be isolate yourself and protect yourself.
And that's what they did, right. That's just so I don't ask her
to be podcast managed exactly. Ican't believe you've got to me. Honestly,

(59:29):
how did you break down the back? I can't believe how hard you're
pursuing me Other than not actly.Well, I will find the email that
I asked you about six months ago. No, that's okay, joking.
No, No, I want youon the show. And I wanted you,
I mean purposely wanted you separately becauseyou have your separate people and you
have separate careers, and I stillwant to know here you have your own

(59:51):
chair. Music is a fascinating worldto me, and it's one that I
do not. I'm a complete outsiderin me too, and so that's even
more sparkly. Yes, right,can I show you how? And maybe
we should have him on if youtell me if you will have him on.
So the day after the Grammys,I'm like, okay, I'm not
even going to try to start writingfor this other show I have this week.
I'm not going to work on thisbook project I have. I'm going

(01:00:13):
to go buy music and go haveChinese food for lunch. That's what I
decided. So I went to thisrecord store I love way out in the
valley and I went next door withmy new records and a music magazine to
sit and have lunch and just sortof relaxed. Because it was a traumatic
the weather, the rain made itcrazy. I wasn't slept, and I
sit down and I'm having this lunchand this as I'm about to get up,

(01:00:36):
the man and his nice wife acrossthe way. He goes, do
you know me? Do I knowyou? And I go my name is
David Wild. He goes, I'mDavid Kirshenbaum. David Kershenbaum was a guy
who produced Tracy Chapman's Big records,Joe Jackson's records, all the big ones,
which were huge to me. AndKat Stevens, who I have a
history with. You know, we'retoo yourseff is law. But we had

(01:01:00):
started talking about music and talking aboutthose people we knew in common, and
he's you know, he's been aroundlonger than I have, and his wife
and we just were having such funthat that was when the earthquake hit and
I was standing next to them,almost fell on them. And we kept
on telling music stories. And yourealize this music, the love of music,

(01:01:20):
can get you through a lifetime.It's very special. It hits in
a very special place in your heartand your brain, and it's and sticks
with you. It informs your entirelife much better than us. Stupid jokes.
You know what, sorta no,sorta no, it's the same.
I'm gonna say the same. Allright. I mean, does your dad
still love to laugh? Oh?He stopped laughing in nineteen seventy two,

(01:01:44):
curiously, curiously close to your birth. Oh yeah, yes, we laughed
yesterday. I'm gonna laugh. He'sin rehab right now and we laughed through
red checking him into rehab. Buthe's laughing all the time. He's always
laughing. And that's our relationship.I need to meet him, you do,
I have you better hurry and inrehabit not a great hospital. In

(01:02:07):
his last week had this beautiful caretakerthat we loved, is a Belita,
And we said goodbye for the nightand she said, mister Max, I'll
come by tomorrow. He goes,you better call first, exactly exactly.
It's true. But yeah, mydad, you'd love my dad. My

(01:02:27):
dad's very funny, still the goofysixteen year old. He wrote from Mad
magazine his whole life. Did youknow that? Or he did not know
that? By the way, Ihad a full on subscription. I was
devoted and I knew every single staffmember. By crazy gang of idiots.
My father was one of those originalguys, and he al Chaffee cherished all

(01:02:50):
those guys, and he had areally made a fascinating interesting life in comedy.
So you know, all those guys, I met a bunch of them.
I met a bunch of I met. These names are in my brain.
I grew up around one of them, Paul Peter Port, and it
was I couldn't believe I met someone. Sergio Aragonist's talk about stuff on the
in the back, back, right, all in the margins, right.

(01:03:13):
He's the funniest, best one anyof the mall Sergio, and still around.
He lives just like Santa Barbara.I mean, that was a defining
thing of my life of childhood.Then I graduated when I hit thirteen fourteen,
you graduated and yeah, goodbye,man b Why because there's nudity,

(01:03:34):
Yeah, boobs. I'm gonna followthe boobs still to this day. And
then I'm graduating to the Playboy.Yes, there's really the lesson kids follow
the bus. The older I get, the more I think I might understand
what it's like to be a womanwith boobs, the older I get,
but I don't fully know. ButI think the more I think that that
that you mean because you have themthough, well that's true. I've had

(01:03:57):
them for since I was twelve.But just like the objectification, the thing
of carrying around this thing that's anobject of desire for everyone, even though
you don't want to desire you iskind of it's an interesting thing. Maybe
the ultimate most successful example of marketing. I know, maybe I don't know.

(01:04:19):
I mean, you teat to thekids at the beginning, and then
they gotta love it forever. Givea little taste, a little taste,
Yeah, they're with you forever.But these are right, they're they're utilitarian
when you think about it. Butthen then the way they were marketed to
us, market the difference between menand women, where we like men are

(01:04:40):
gonna like all the differences in womenperiod. I learned a lot today,
David, and but it's it.But the this is a bunch of boobs
talking about boobs. I get thisis I think this is interesting. Maybe
it's maybe I'm wrong, may've beencrazy. The older I get, the
less the more my brain can separatewhat objectification is of women, and more
I understand the humanity that's built inand just being a person, who is

(01:05:04):
this stuff that's attached to them thatthey have no if I walked around with
one hundred dollars bills stable to mybody all day long, right like we're
done. You did for a periodright now. Some days I'm proud of
the one hundred dollars bills, andthe other days I want to cover them
up and never and have nobody seethem. I just I would love just
a little objectification. Little Okay,I've seen I've walked with him in places,

(01:05:28):
and you get a little you doget a little objective. People come
up to your phil and and theyrecognize. But that's not objectification. That's
not like, oh look, howcute look answer for no reason. It's
a fiction that you kind of earned, I guess somewhere in the distance,
but then shows up in your face. No one's ever said, look at
the ass on that guy. Now, no one's ever said, but we
know not they do, because whatthey always say is you look so skinny.

(01:05:50):
No, no, you eat,you eat the food, but you
look so They've said, what anass That that's true. I've heard that
this is true. I've heard that, Uh, Jake Cogan, we love
you. You're welcome any time.I'm no Sean Cassidy, I'm going to
get you in Langer's number nineteen next. Okay, and we'll go. We
can go and haventeen. They havemaybe one, one or two a year.

(01:06:11):
Yeah, I need to I don'tdo it. Have you been to
the Daughter's deli? Yes? Verynice. Yeah, it's pretty much just
the last week and similar similar,similar vibe, similar vibe from the daughter,
similar similar meat. It's very I'venever said this to I'm afraid to
say to Phil when I have don'tknow protection, but you're gonna save me
here. I there is a sandwichI like much more than Langers, which

(01:06:32):
is closer Larchemont. A couple oftimes that we've had a sandwich from the
large Monte and cheese, wine andcheese. You love that. I know
you too. I think it's thebest sangwich I've ever had. I love
it. Which one? Uh anything? Why don't I know this about you?
I love it? What are we? What are we bothering with other
people? It's not a hassle.It's not a hassle at all. It's

(01:06:57):
my neighborhood. So i'm i'm Ihave it a lot. I love it.
What will they do it? Beforeyou wrap me up here? Yes,
you go to the ends of theearth to taste different foods and go
to different restaurants. Yes, howcome we've never been to fucking Tarzana?
What's going on in over the Hill? In Tarzana and Woodland Hills and Sino.
I have been there, I've hadwith you, I've had food there.

(01:07:18):
What's your favorite? I want?I want to know it's ten best
and there's a brother's brother. Sushiis very good, right? You like
it? Sushi? Do I likesushi? I don't know. Do we
just meet? Not? No?No, I hate sushi. Well,
some people don't. I've eaten sushi. My father wouldn't eat it. It's
not the same Jackie Mason, theguy who invented sushi. All right,

(01:07:40):
so you have most brilliant you can't. What if we had a restaurant without
a kitchen? What do you want? Jackie Mason was the nicest. I
had a great time working with JackieMason. He was in That's funny because
he didn't he didn't have the bestreputation. He didn't, and he was
very kind to me when I wasa young man stand up comedian. He
was very pleasant and nice as ranger. And then when I work with him

(01:08:00):
in the sinces kind again, Andthat's not necessarily his reputation. Every time
a clip of him comes up,I die laughing. I think he was
one of the funniest. I gotto see the Broadway. Do you remember
when he was on Broadway? TheWorld the World's Okay. I went to
that once with I believe it wasthe met saw twice, once with my

(01:08:23):
family or friends, and once withyour mistress. No well, once missed
it once with a now famous writerSusannah Grant to Aaron Brockovic, who moved
out here and stayed on my couchas a friend for a very long time.
But when I went, she's alsolike from a waspy family, and
I just remember like watching with herand laughing, and then I remember looking

(01:08:44):
like she's laughing a little too hard? Is she laughing the same way she
was? Her funny or the bad? Remember that very well. I love
you, guys. I love thisshow, and I am an avid listener
and I will listen intently always,And I'm very much looking forward to your
next series of Thanks Somebody for you, Phil. I can't wait to see

(01:09:05):
where you go Where you went Marchfirst, ladies and gentlemen, Jay Cogan,
everybody, let's hear it Naked Lunchis a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and
David Wilde. Theme song and musicby Brad Paisley, Produced by Will Sterling.
Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal, DavidWilde, and our consulting journalist is

(01:09:25):
Pamela Challon. If you enjoyed theshow, share it with a friend.
But if you can't take my wordfor it, take Phil's and don't forget
to leave a good rating and review. We like five stars. You know,
thanks for listening to Naked Lunch,A Lucky Bastard's production.