Sam Hollander Opens for Hanson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Some days it's hard to know what you be.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
I've been down deep.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
World as good as your.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to a very special and as Tim Waltz might say,
weird episode of Naked Lunch. We have one of the
most entertaining people I've ever met, and I met him
on a plane. The only thing I like about air
travel today is that you occasionally run into someone like
Sam Hollander. And there is no one like Sam Hollander.

(00:49):
His memoir twenty one hit Wonder Flopping My Way to
the Top of the Charts has been out a little
bit now, and it is great. Is one of the
most honest, truthful ways to learn about the music business.
As opposed to listening to all my bullshit. On this podcast,
you can actually get some truth from someone who is

(01:11):
has actual talent. You know, doesn't write the nice words
around the songs. He actually writes the words in the songs.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
That's debatable.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
So and the way is so, Sam Hollander, welcome to
this sort of version of Naked Lunch. You're sort of
auditioning for Phil for Naked Lunch.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
All right, Well, first of all, I want to say
your coach, your you are coach Waltz to me, coach Wilde.
Second of all, it is an absolute honor to be here. David.
I'm obviously starstrucking your presence. We've flown together, so you
know we have history. But you know I'm a big
Phil guy too, Man, Phil Phil, My Phil love goes
very deep.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well this, I think if things go well with this,
next time you're here, we're going to actually have lunch
at Phil's house where the show is normally done right now,
where it's straw Hut, which is very elegant, and Ryan
is making us look very handsome, or so he says.
In any case, I got on a plane, I would
not even guess how many years ago this might have been.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
I'm gonna say Obama Term one.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yes, so it was a while ago. And what I
do remember is that I've had a couple of bad
experiences getting on long flights. This was across I think
this was LA to New York. Yes, but I was
once on an LA to London flight and I sat
down next to a priest who decided to try to
start converting me from not believing anything to whatever he

(02:31):
believes in.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
Like that, by the way, that explains it, Yes exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
But in any case, we started talking and the first
thing I realized was that you wrote one of my
favorite songs, something that's on my phone regularly, which is
a song with Carol King. Oh.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
I thought you were gonna say the baha men follow
up to who Let the Dogs Out?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Move it like this as much as you let the
dogs in let the dogs back.

Speaker 4 (02:56):
Unfortunately, unfortunately Caroling I did, which I did?

Speaker 2 (03:01):
How did that happen?

Speaker 4 (03:03):
Carol King? So I was working on a record for
RCA Records and Tapes, and I was an artist named
Tarsha Vega, and I was looking for a feature on
a song, and I think the label was very excited
to have India ari and that's what that was what
they were going after. And I, uh, my wife had
actually seen Carol and Blood Brothers in Broadway. She said,

(03:26):
oh my god, her voice sounds incredible, and I thought, wow,
that'd be a really badass cameo like Carol King on
a hip hop track. And you know, this was this
was an m C who I was writing her rhymes.
So this was my foray into uh writing uh uh
my version of hip hop lyricism, you know. And what

(03:49):
happened was Carol King came to the studio. She agreed. Uh.
She came down and she sat down across from us,
and she started speaking to Tarsha the rapper. She said,
I love your word play. It was you know that
there's a lot of internal rhymes and things I really dig.
And Tarsha, who was awesome, said, oh, he writes that stuff,
you know. And what happened was, you know, I think

(04:12):
after the shock and all wore off, you know, we
began collaborating with me, Tarsha and Dave Schomer and we
wrote a lot of songs together. And that was truly
as a kid who matriculated three universities and two semesters
right there, I would write serial, serial matriculator. This was
the most academic experience I ever had in terms of

(04:35):
absolute masterclass. Learned craft from her, completely under her tutelage.
And you know, Love Makes the World was one of
those songs. It just came out, It was born out
of it, and she said, you know, I think it
might actually make my record. And then it was the single.
It was the title track, and it was this gap
commercial with Carol.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
And Louise, and it was the first song you heard
at the beginning of this episode. We put it. We're
putting it in this episode to kick it off before
our theme song. We've never done that.

Speaker 4 (05:00):
Can I tell you something like this is the episode
that changes at all?

Speaker 2 (05:05):
This would make you can But I don't know if
you remember, Like I believe, we started talking like the
first second and we did not stop talking about the
entire flight.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
I'm a big David Wild fan. So you know, you're
if you grow up in this industry and you and
you're and your your level of nerdom is where mine is.
You know, you you've read David for years in Rolling Stone,
and you've seen him as this incredible pundit of VH
one through the years, and so I was Starstark and
I you know, normally what happens with me, just a
little just a little exposition, is when I'm seated on

(05:36):
a plane, I never win. You know, some people win, right,
so you know there'll be somebody interesting on the plane.
You're like, Wow, that's really exciting. Oh, I love it.
And then you know I'm seated next to the other
person who you know is elbowing me the whole time.
But David, I'm gonna tell you a little fact right now,
because I do have a brief little window of of
you know, this is my audition, so I'm auditioning for

(05:57):
you and fil So the one thing I would say
is this, if I flew to from New York to
Las Vegas two days ago and I was on the
plane and my seat didn't recline enough, and I was
I was in a bad mood, you know, and like
I said, it was a little salty four hours sleep
the night before, I see you next to a Burley
fell in next to me. It was sort of pushing
into my space and I finally fell asleep, and my

(06:20):
teeth must have been gritted. And what happened was we
hit turbulence and I cracked my own tooth. And as
you see right there, my tooth is actually cracked in
the corner there. I don't know any other American who
has cracked a tooth on a plane. But that's kind
of like my plane, Karma. So you were the one
beacon of hole, your beacon of light, you know, like

(06:42):
you were the you were you were coaching.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
You weren't coach, So I can't be a bacon.

Speaker 4 (06:46):
Of the bacon of light that was strong.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
I have flown next to You're You're my best My
one that was hyped up and was not that good
was I once got on a red eye to Florida,
which is a weird flight. Uh, and the uh steward
went to me, goes, dude, you're sleeping with el McPherson
tonight because she was the next person I was in
a first class.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
You wouldn't be canceled for that today.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
But he said that, and it ended up being not
as much fun as that sounded because she slept. She
has super long legs kicking me throughout the flight.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
That's all I'm gonna.

Speaker 6 (07:22):
I'm gonna.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
My only other celebrity drop is I flew next to
uh uh Will and Grace with Havy Mega Malali. Is
that's not right?

Speaker 7 (07:29):
No?

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yes, Megamale smashed with Deborah Messing.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
I did, I did, but Megan Malali sat next to me,
and I had. You know, there was a dispensary on
the West Side that I knew was very famous for
giving dog licenses so you could do the support support animal.
And it was a dispensary that gave up license. This
is true, and it was in Venice, and so I
went in, I got and I got my form and

(07:54):
I went to see Doctor Bark b a r Q,
and Doctor Bark gave me. None of this is embellished
or meant for comedic purposes. But I got a card.
I brought my dog on the plane, and I'm flying
next to Mega Malali with a pesky little puppy on
the plane, and I have to say she didn't enjoy
my company, like I really felt.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
She's the person who has enjoyed your company.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yeah, I just and I'm not blaming her, Like the
dog was a lot, you know, Benita Applebaum, My dog
just she just didn't feel the energy wasn't reciprocating back.
But that was really my biggest, my only moment that
could have competed with the joy of David Wilde, and
instead it didn't live up to it.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
And I refuse to watch Willyan Grace my best. Actually,
I'm going to say you're my second favorite. I have
about five, but I won't get into all of them.
But I do have the Trevor Noah moment where we
I flew next to him when he had turned down
being a presenter in the Grammys. According to his publicist,
I got on the flight to New York. This is
a couple years ago when he did to show in
New York and at the end, I don't bother people

(08:54):
on flights, but he had a certain points in We're
talking about a football game I was watching on the
TV and he and I said, I'm so sorry you
couldn't do the Grammys. He goes, what I said, I'm
so sorry you couldn't present on the Grammys. We're doing
this comedy album thing. He goes, no one asked me
if I could do that amazing And what it was
was that he was away hit a gig Friday night
in Florida, and his publicists assumed he would not want

(09:16):
to do it. He very much wanted to do it.
So as we got off the plane, he went to
yell at somebody, and I went to say, do not
book someone else. And that is how came into the
Grammy world.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
We changed Grammy history that night on Continental Airlines.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
But in any case, we are here because we are,
believe it or not, we're gonna We've already dropped eight
hundred names, but we haven't dropped the name of Hanson. Hansen,
who we're sort of the opening act. We are opening
right now for Hanson, who we are sort of rebroadcasting
our episode for a reason because some of you may

(09:53):
not realize it, but we want you all to realize
it that it on YouTube at the Phil Rosenthal World channel.
That is a channel you can subscribe to, and I
encourage you to subscribe to on YouTube. We've now started
putting up the episodes which we can put up. We
put up first, I think Bonnie Hunt, which then we

(10:14):
were shocked at like fifty thousand of you very quickly
started watching one of our favorite episodes. I don't know
if you've met Ms Bonnie Hunks.

Speaker 4 (10:22):
I'm just you know, a fan.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Okay, We're all fans. Daryl Hall right now doing very
well coming out as a Jew, which you if you
haven't listened to that, please darl Hall. Daryl Hall's Jewishness
has never been more discussed than in our podcast.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
By the way, we'll totally take them.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Oh are you kidding?

Speaker 6 (10:42):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (10:43):
We need everything we can hang out right now, especially
you know our market research is a little low, you know,
take it.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Rosha Shana was never more funky and soulful than this one.
Now that we now that we know and Hanson are,
This was one we did by zoom with the three brothers,
and I get to sort of grab credit for Hanson
because I.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
Three great Jewish brothers. No, no, I think this Tulsa's own.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Let's exactly the best temple. And we did talk about bagels.
We did not discuss temples in Tulsa. Now, believe it
or not, this is the way Sam Hollander is because
you have to you have to listen to his Questlove
Supreme episode which is recently out. You have to buy
the book, which is still available, and I'm sure he'll

(11:35):
sign it for you anywhere on any plane.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
When I You know, it's funny because I do get
asked to sign it a lot, David. One thing I'll
tell you is I do warn people in advance that
if my signature Grace is your book, it's completely devalued
for eBay resale.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
You can return it.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
I'm just saying, like you know, on eBay, I see
the sign copies go very cheaply. Just a little hint
for anyone who's interested in purchasing said book.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yes, I do still encourage you to buy that. But
but Hanson, yes, uh, you can hear You're about to
hear the episode with Phil. See if you're missing Phil.
Don't worry. We're gonna get you your Phil of Phil
any moment. But Sam, even when I dropped the Hanson
name to you to say, would you come on and

(12:17):
be our opening act for the Hanson episode, you have
a slight your Your musical career has even connected you
to Hanson.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
Well, I'm the fourth Hanson, the Handsome Brothers. Mom always like,
was this slapshot handsome hands? I mean, that's my handsome brothers.
You know, I thought that's what we were doing today.
We were discussing Paul Newman. Look, yeah, I collaborated with
Hanson on a Mike Love record is Mike Love Solo record,

(12:47):
And they had written a song called Finally It's Christmas
and they.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Sang a Jewish song.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
Yeah yeah, yeah, look let me say something. That's my
bread and butter is Christmas Records. At this point, I'm
Jews for Jesus to the end. You know I can
be bought. We both we all know that it's very easy.
We knew what we were doing. This, this was our forte.
We just co opted it. But you no, I I
got to collaborate with those guys produced the song Finally

(13:17):
It's Christmas on the Mike Love Christmas record, and then
at Mike's record release in New York, I got to
hang with them. They're the loveliest fellas. They were obviously
discovered in A and R that first round by the
great Steve Greenberg, one of my best friends, and so
I was you.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Guys didn't always get the credit for like the taste
he had. He also put Taylor as the lead singer.

Speaker 4 (13:36):
In that Tinted Windows with Windows, which is a really
if you haven't, that's a great record.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
It's a great alture discovery.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
Kind of a Girl is one of the great lost
power pop sings.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
It's a sort of super group with Taylor Hanson's the
lead singer, the drummer from Cheap Trick, Jenny and James
hof Smashing.

Speaker 4 (13:53):
All great guys, but.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
And thereat Adam Selster of your.

Speaker 4 (13:57):
He was one of my closest friends and.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
One of my heroes who I freaked out every time
we worked together because I was such a fan, especially
the Fountains of Wayne Stone.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
He was just like my more you know, we all
have like that one friend, the infinitely more talented friend,
and he was that friend.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
So uh, I like to think I could replace him
as you're infinitely more talented.

Speaker 4 (14:17):
Well, Phil Ken, definitely Phil phil KEA. You know, so
I lived out here, David. You know, I live in
New York now, but I lived in Larchmont Village, so
I would you know, I had traverse the mean streets
of Larchmont, and I would see Phil and get really
oddly starstruck. And I never really knew how to approach.
And I actually met Monica once. Monica once came to
my house. She came to the house.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Someone gotta be careful for you're treading on some dangerous territory.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
Yes, I met Monica and she was lovely and it
was great. But I thought to myself, Man, Phil and
I are destined, you know. I just you know, I'm
very many seasons into somebody. If you'd Phil and I
follow his food maps. When I was in Nashville. I
went to the burger place that he recommended. Brad Paisley. Yeah,
well yes you did.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yes, you do love that.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
That's David Wilde, That's Coach wild But I will tell
you I, uh I've done uh. I followed.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
It was weird.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
Yeah, I'm a big uh. No, you're a fantastic you
know I'm a big field guy, so this is huge.
But adhd, what did I Where did we go?

Speaker 2 (15:15):
We've just gone everywhere at back, I will just Adam.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
Hanson handsOn Hanson, Yes, handsome, but God, God bless Adam Slessenger.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
What a great, great guy.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
Adam was truly so yeah, I was gonna say is
Adam was one of my best friends for many years
and I miss him literally every single day. He was Uh,
we had just eons of fun everywhere we went. It
was it was. It was the greatest friendship. But he
was also it was very inspirational because he was an
absolute MASTERDS thing and I loved how it consistently morphed,

(15:49):
you know, so it go. You know, he would he
would make band records and then he would shift into
television stuff and you know it. Uh, we had Yeah,
we had it. We had a We had some incredible times.
We we wrote a song for the Muppet movie. Can
I tell quick story?

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (16:05):
I got a good less in your story. So we
wrote a song. We Disney called us to collaborate and
write a song for the Muppet Movie with Jason Siegel
and the director Paul Williams.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
All of a sudden you're like almost in Williams.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
And you know, and that's my guy, right, So you know,
everything I do is I'm just trying to you know,
be you know, the the d grade version of Pete
Paul Williams. And so we end up.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
It's much nicer than you saying the taller version.

Speaker 4 (16:29):
Well, I mean he's bigger in stature.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (16:33):
So we Adam and I write this song, collaborate me,
Adam and Steve Gold, who's Adam's main collaborator on all
the TV and film stuff. We write this incredible song
and as we're like gearing up to do it, we're
thinking to ourselves, this is so strange. The director of
the film is the director of Flight of Concords, and

(16:55):
why is he not using those guys to write the songs?
You know? So the word Disney we keep hearing is
oh you know, no, no, no, no, different lane, different lane.
And Adam demands the call. So we get on a
phone call. It's me and Adam and h and the director,
and he's like, I'm not going in that direction at all. No,
I've done that. This is going to be a new thing.

(17:16):
Blah blah blah blah blah. The movie comes out all
songs written by you know, the cat from Fly the
Concords and he wins the oscar for man or the
man or a Muppet and which was a real It
was a really incredible song. But I really like I
recited my speech. I had my speech ready. Our song
was so great. It's called something something Happened. And if
there are any music supervisors listening out there, I have

(17:38):
a Lost Muppet Classic sitting on my hard drive ridden
with the late great Adam Slesinger.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Dyl and I should record the Lost Muppet Classic and
I will bet.

Speaker 4 (17:50):
It could be your new theme something. It's called something Happened,
Like I could, I could make it the theme.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
I I I know, people when you come to the
episode we are going to air that. We're going to
debut that track. And by the way, by.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
The way, anybody who's listening out there, when he didn't
say if he said when, just like, let's put let's
put that out into the consciousness.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
A couple of questions about a few of the great
songs you've written this huge success with Panic at the Disco. Yes,
I have a punctuation question about Panic at the Disco.
Do you understand that exclamation point, Panic at the Disco
was it? Is it like, I can't tell if they
were honoring the Smiths or what the hell was going on.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
They were really violent, angry guys, so it was it
was it was about just putting punishment in front of
your eyes. Like minute one, the second you saw the
exclamation of what you knew you were in for death
metal and that's what they were going for, and then
it just morphed.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Was it a good Was that a big deal in
your career? Your success with Panic.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
Panic the Disco was one of those life changing records
and one you know, collaborations. I think I wrote fourteen
songs with Brendan Urie and Jakes and Claire during that time,
and you know, I hopes is you know, I guess
statistically the biggest song on my career. And I would
say it was an amazing experience, probably my favorite recording

(19:09):
experience ever, just because it was an absolute free for
all and I felt that there was no level of
crazy we couldn't ascertain. So I love.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
I love.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
Anything that constricts me as a writer makes me crazy
because I don't know how to write straight ahead, so
I'm a little off in my writing and so anything
that embraces that so panic or fits or any of
those kind of records.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
It fits in the tantrums with them. You had another, Yes,
we did.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
We had a little song called Handclap, which did its thing.
And one thing I'd say about it is they're they're
unhinged records. They're just not They're not straight ahead pop records.
They're sort of off in different ways. And that's my
writing and that's what so being able to do that is.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
The greatest the thing I do love about And you
should definitely check out this Apple if you have Apple
the Essential Songs by Sam Hollander. The thing that's really
cool is there's things I didn't realize that, like in
the middle of being mister hip writer producer, you go
do something with the OJS, which makes it infinitely cooler
to me. I love the game.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
The game I've played always. You know, I've always felt
like I was a strange outlier in this thing. You know,
I'm just sort of I'd be to my own drum,
and my own drum isn't really pop and it isn't
really alternative. It's it's amorphous or whatever. It's just it's
it's it's multi genre. You know, I listened to so
many different things, and I try to pull from different influences.
But I've always made a commitment to myself from the

(20:31):
day I started, dating back to Carol King, et cetera.
And it really started with Carol that any opportunity I
had to write with a legend, I would take and
I would certainly try to jam it immediately after having
success with something more mainstream and young, I would try to,
you know, get in a room with Ringo or I
get in a room with King.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
By the way, you and I are two people who whatever,
like in your obituary or whatever, we've both written like
I did worked with two books on Ringo.

Speaker 4 (20:57):
Yeah, like friend of Friend of Ringo is like my
calling card. That's all I have.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
There's nothing more fun.

Speaker 4 (21:02):
It's the greatest flex in the world.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
And you actually wrote a friendship.

Speaker 4 (21:05):
Song I did ring I did you know I've written
friendship songs with him. I like that there's one way
to call teach me to Tango. That's my favorite one.
I think that it sort of works in an interesting way.
But he uh, you know, just learning from these people,
learning from Ringer, learned from Billy Idol, learned from all
these different deathly le stuff is really good, and def

(21:26):
Leper was crazy, and the Billy Idol stuff was great.
He And what I would say about all of them
is it balances this business for me. You know, I
love the notion of shooting, you know, trying to write
stuff that might resonate with one audience and then trying
to resonate with something completely different. The OJ's one of
my favorite records I've ever made. I made that with
Steve Greenberg and Mike Mangini, and I would say, and

(21:47):
Betty and the late great Betty Right, and that's one
of the coolest projects I've ever been involved with.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Betty Right. I never met her, and I always thought
it was so cool that, like, after her success as
a you know, clean up woman and all this stuff,
she ended up being a producer, like on like just Stones.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
Do you want another crazy, craziest Betty Right thing I
ever saw?

Speaker 2 (22:05):
Please?

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Betty Right walked into the studio for the first session
with the OJS, who she had like toured with in
the early seventies, walked in without any uh any uh
prelude whatsoever. Thank you. That's a big save. She reaches
into her big duffel bag and pulls out Betty Right
T shirts and gives them to everybody in the room

(22:27):
first thing, without saying a single word, every single including
the OJ's Betty Right T shirts. So I somewhere I
do have this Betty Right T shirt and I will,
you know, save it for posterity.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Unbelievable writing. Can you share the opposite of Is there
any writing story, any bad date that you are comfortable discussing,
like one that went very wrong?

Speaker 4 (22:51):
Because I've had so many?

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yes, yeah, any one you want to share?

Speaker 6 (22:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (22:56):
Sure, Bop was that good? And always work those guys.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Things at the top of the episodes? Does he really
hold for that?

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Okay, fine, that's his moment. No, I did not collaborate
with them. You know. It's funny. I h most sessions
when I started out. You know, when you've had no
success in this industry, the sessions are harder because people
are feeling you out and they know that you're faking
it until you have any success. So those sessions can
be gruesome. And the more success you're able to ascertain,

(23:28):
the better the dynamic is in the room because people
are coming in respect anymore, you know. But I did once.
You know, I did write with a kid a few
years ago who was a big Spotify kid, and you
had tons of streams, tons of streams, and he walked
into my studio and I tell the story a lot,
and if anyone's heard it, you can sort of fast
forward now. But you know my walls, I kept my
walls full of plaques and to like the gaudiest level ever.

(23:53):
I call it trumpy and aesthetic, you know. And this
is not no political you know, referendum whatsoever. But I'm
just talking about, you know, lots of gold and you
know that's weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just just lots of light.
I was going for Taki. I always felt that was
my thing. So I had to be like sixty plaques
on the wall. It was pretty gross, and but I
used it as a fighting method, you know, because you

(24:15):
hope that someone walks through the door and thinks, wow, like,
you know what, he's made some records. He's gross, he's
a narcissist. Obviously, I'll listen to him. Ink if we're
arguing over lyric right, that's the thought process. So what
happens is this kid, what the Spotify kid walks in
and he's got to be a little older than my daughter.
He's a child, and he walks in. He has headphones on,
and I notice as he walks through the door, he

(24:36):
never looks up at any of the records, and I thought, well,
I've never seen that before. Normally someone at least like
tilts ahead right nothing, walks straight in the room, takes
his headphones off. So he's disarmed me. So I'm in trouble.
So I look at him and said, hey, man, you
know I love what you do. You know you're very talented.

Speaker 6 (24:52):
Man.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
Let you Yeah, Man, I write and produce all my
own songs by myself. Right. So I said, oh, that's
really interesting, really interesting, cool cool cool? So uh why
are we here? Ah? Man, I just wanted to see
how the LA cats do it. I want to know
how LA writers write. So I realized, oh my god,
I'm like this weird archaeological dig so.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Time.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah. So I did what I do with everybody in
this situation is I said, hey, man, play me what
you've been working on. Play me something you're very excited about,
you know. So it played me a song and it's
totally great, fine, perfunctory sound like everything else that I
had done. And then I become this method acting version
of myself. I and seen, I cut and I do
the whoa wow, oh, whoa whoa play that? Play that

(25:41):
part back again?

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Whoa you wrote that?

Speaker 8 (25:43):
Whoa?

Speaker 4 (25:44):
Hey, hey man, hey, who signed your record? Monty Lippmann
at Republic signed it directly? Whoa? I'm calling Monty tonight.
You have the first single. I'm telling you now, we
could write today, but that would why waste your day?

(26:04):
You have a massive record for I think it's pretty good, right,
It's incredible, and there is no way that this isn't
going to blow up. I'm hitting Monty tonight. He's my boy.
Get out of here, Go to beach, Go hang with
your homies, do whatever, enjoy la. You're only here for
a few days. You don't need this, dude, You killed it. Guy,
hugs me. I think we leave on good terms. I've

(26:25):
met Monty Lippmann twice at like a sandwich shop. I
certainly don't have his number, and I don't think I'm
on his call registry. So that's what you have to do.
You have to resort to gutter tactics in those situations
for your sanity. That is an example of when it
doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Now we have so that we have room for the
Hanson episode.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
Probably, I'm totally I'm that opening act where they're just
like they're flashing the lights and they're saying, come on, man,
it's over.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
It's over, and I want everyone will enjoyed, except Ryan,
who is sitting here and is not enjoying this at all.
But I will say one last quat because I'm gonna
give you my version of this. At this late date
in our existence, we've been around quite a while. Are
you ever is there anyone who makes you giddy like

(27:11):
with maybe Ringo? Was it for you? I had the
experience will I cannot say anymore about it. But on
Rosha Shana at dinner with my in laws, the phone
rings and I pick it up and I take it
because the number looks like I've important And I talked
to share at the table on Rosha Shana and they're

(27:32):
as old as I am, as many people I met.
I was like, I couldn't. I was like a giddy,
like a school child.

Speaker 4 (27:38):
Well, I'm very tight with flavor flavor at this point,
and that's pretty strange because I was a massive public
enemy fan as a kid and through my friend Rhianna
and who manages Flaves. She connected us and he did
the intro to my audio book and we hang a lot,
and he's the same, incredible human.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
He's really had an amazing year or two where he's
he's like, you look up anywhere you look on social
media or on the viral world. He and Bruce are hugging.

Speaker 9 (28:10):
Well.

Speaker 4 (28:10):
I just feel like I'm living in this crazy dystopian
world where I mean literally, I feel like Flave could
be president at this point, like he's done the work. Yeah,
by the way, he could say something, I'm his campaign manager,
but I'm just saying, you know, he is the loveliest
guy in the world, and he loves his fans, and
he's so sweet and he's respectful, and you know, I
was with him two nights ago. He's he's somebody I adore.

(28:32):
And the fact that I can say I'm friends with
both Ringo and Flavor Flave kind of sums up my
uh the My my take on this business is I'm
still this weird colossal fan who entered it and somehow
started sneaking into rooms and no one realized that I was.
You know that I was biscuit under two hundred pounds
and probably hard to shove out the door, and I

(28:55):
love it. It's like it's been the greatest you know,
I've gotten to live a real dream.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
And now the dream will continue because soon you will
have lunch with Phil Rosenthal.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
I mean, that's it. I was going to say Philip
Rosenthal instead of Flavor Flavor, but you know, in many
ways they're kind of the same guy.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
So Chuck d has toured with both, I believe. So
right now we say, as the opening act, please stick
around for the headliners, Phil Rosenthal and Handsome I love
me some Handsome Phil. Hmm.

Speaker 8 (29:26):
B oh, Hi, David Hi.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
That's the worst version of them bop I've ever heard.
And now we're going to talk to the people who
did the best versions a few of them and a
life of music that I am so proud to have
played the littlest part in that. I know they don't remember,
but I'm going to remind them that I helped put
a little bop in their own. Ladies and gentlemen, three

(29:51):
brothers I love admire whose body of work I think
we should all investigate and all celebrate.

Speaker 10 (29:59):
Hand Let's build the beans, chew the fat food for
thought and jokes on tap, talking with our mouthsfull, having fun,

(30:19):
peas of cake and humble pies, serving up slice live,
leave the dressing on the side. It's naked, lush clothing option.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
D I find to feel this is Phil meet Hansen, Phil,

(31:02):
meet you gentlemen. Uh and I I think I was
sort of explaining to these guys that, like, I don't
even know how much you know this, but I have
such a whether or not you know it. I have
a very meaningful relationship with you. I I love Hanson.
I I feel like I'm an og Hansen fan. And
I don't know if you know this story. If you remember,

(31:23):
do you remember how we met.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
It's the very first time it was?

Speaker 6 (31:28):
It was it storytellers? Am I remember? Is it goes
that far back?

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Oh, it's earlier.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
It's earlier than that. Okay, here's here's the story.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
It's David. Is this are we on?

Speaker 6 (31:37):
Is this is?

Speaker 2 (31:38):
This?

Speaker 5 (31:38):
Is?

Speaker 2 (31:38):
This is a podcast for better.

Speaker 5 (31:41):
We were actually filming you. When you woke up this morning,
you say.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Naked with Hansen, So have a long naked segment.

Speaker 5 (31:52):
This is the lunch part.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
We like to build that. Oh, by the way, we
should explain we were having pizza, which you may or
may not like this. I was trying to think what
would be appropriate because we generally eat at our during
the show. We got pizza from Delicious Vinyl, where you
were the producer. One of the producers is their first
record now is in the Pizza Game.

Speaker 6 (32:12):
Yes, did you know that?

Speaker 2 (32:15):
No? No, Mike, Mike, Mike Simpson from the Dust Brothers
is one of the owners of Delicious Pizza now and
and Phil and I got invited. You got invited by
Mike to have pizza their years ago, so I said,
let's go have whether or not you liked him or

(32:36):
have any fun.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Mike is lovely and was always kind of a foodie,
so it makes sense. Always he was the first person
I saw and I have a distinct picture of I
really love coffee, and especially as a young kid. I
think I discovered it before it was healthy. It's still
it's still unhealthy, learning to drink, watching him make an
iced latte at the house for the Dust Brother's house,

(32:59):
and now, you know, ice coffee generally was still kind
of finding its place, and this is late nineties, so
this is you know, still kind coffee. And it was
just it was it was. It was an espresso in
a cup, a bunch of ice and then cream over
the top, just straight, you know, quick and dirty. And
I thought that is so strange, and then I'm so intrigued, and.

Speaker 9 (33:21):
He's got a coffee problem ever safe. Yeah, I thank
Mike for that.

Speaker 5 (33:27):
So you guys, you guys are in Tulsa right right now.
So how's the food scene there?

Speaker 1 (33:34):
But it's in's decent, I mean, yeah, for what it is.
I mean it's a lot of a lot of what's
happening all over the country. You've seen in Tulsa, which
has got people of our generation, the millennial, you know,
pluses that like downtown, why is it boarded up? Literally
boarded up? Because our parents generation scattered and you know,
the guys that could bought buildings yet on them. You know,

(33:55):
over all of the country we saw this, right the
urban just complot because the urban kind of collapsed and
then it became its highly uh highly invested with less
than ideal.

Speaker 6 (34:05):
Yeah, it was all that.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
It's like, okay, it's linger stores and it's you know
kind of city whatever. So they just shut everything down
and so our generation kind of came back. We made
a very distinct decision. We're here at this twenty year mark,
there's an alignment with this food decision and what staying
with us is. We made a decision to sort of
reinvest in the hay let's be in Tulsa. If we're
not gonna just move, We're not just gonna go to
ll in New York like we ever ready that we had.

Speaker 6 (34:25):
Been in LA and New York a ton and lived
there and because yeah, we started the label years Yeah,
but we just kind of say, well, we're gonna either
pay taxes here and just kind of be invisible, or
we're gonna get involved.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Let's be a part. So we how we kind of
came down town in a neighborhood that now I mean
we have our studio, our warehouse, kind of everything in
one main spot. But I mean there were you know,
it was like a bad Mexican place that is that good.
You know, it's like just kind of like very Mexicana
American Mexican and then just nothing pretty much. Now there's
great coffee, there's a there's a speakeasy with a you know,

(34:59):
seventy five dollar steak that you can do exactly.

Speaker 6 (35:03):
Yes, a lot of bars, you know, a lot of
a bunch of great like bakeries, and there's a really
great vegan place, and like Mediterranean and all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 9 (35:12):
So Oklahoma, you gotta stick with what's natural. To hear.
So Mexican food is great, yes, and meat, yeah, meat,
that's it. I mean, like the ranchers and so that's
that's what our best. That's our core.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Man, that's our best stuff.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
By the way, But.

Speaker 9 (35:29):
Get great Mexican food. And then the other stuff is yeah,
you got to find it. You gotta find it.

Speaker 6 (35:35):
I mean, you know, we have good sushi places, but
it's no nobu, you know what I mean.

Speaker 8 (35:40):
But you're you stuck with where you're from. It's beautiful
and you've reinvested back into the community. By the way,
between your three families, I think you're half the population of.

Speaker 6 (35:51):
We have a community.

Speaker 5 (35:52):
How many kids between.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Your two generations from now? I think we could argue
for a county?

Speaker 5 (35:56):
Yes, how many kids between you?

Speaker 2 (35:59):
Now?

Speaker 1 (36:00):
So I have seven, Z that has five and three yeah,
and then we are we are the three oldest of
seven kids. Now all of our siblings have at least
a child, and most every speaks that have three. There's
about twenty six grandkids you know right now?

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (36:15):
Wow, and your parents are still with us.

Speaker 6 (36:18):
They are, yeah, they they both just turned seventy. Check
that's still here.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Well, while we're talking about children, because you were almost
children to some degree when I think.

Speaker 6 (36:33):
We were arguably children.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yes, well you young men, you were children.

Speaker 7 (36:39):
Ye.

Speaker 6 (36:40):
Children.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Here's why you don't realize you may owe me very
part of your remarkable career, which is I am home.
I think young parent. I think I just had my
first kid. And a woman who was at Mercury Records
named Dawn Bridges, who was a publicity Yeah you might,
you will remember remember done yet she wrote. She called

(37:02):
me and she said, I'm going to send you a song.
I think it is so up your alley, and I
would like your help maybe writing the press release. No
one's heard this, so please keep it under wraps. And
she sent me a It was literally a blind taste test.
It was just the name Hansen and a song called Umbai.

(37:25):
I put it on. I think I was patient number
one in Los Angeles because what happened was it was
not out yet. She goes, I want to know your opinion,
and I want to know if you'd help me write
this like bio or press release, and I thought it
was the greatest song I've ever heard in a decade.
I literally flipped out. And I was working at the

(37:45):
time as a helping Joel Gallon and Jenny McCarthy. Was
a show called The Jenny McCarthy Show, of course, of course,
and I went to them and said, I have just
heard the best song in years, and we have to
have them on our show that we're just beginning to tape. Yes,
And so they both freaked out for their record. And

(38:06):
I believe that was one of your first national If
not you, I believe it.

Speaker 6 (38:11):
Was performance absolutely doing McCarthy. So you were responsible for that,
and that was a seminole. That was a seminal performance
for us in a variety of ways. Well one is
probably the very first time we did.

Speaker 9 (38:24):
An acoustic Yeah, I think it was the first time.
I guess a woman that wasn't related to me.

Speaker 8 (38:28):
Yes, By the way, you guys were too young to
even look at Jenny McCarthy.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
You know what, You're never too young. It wasn't me.

Speaker 6 (38:36):
I love her, I think you know she she jumped
a big old like you're so cute. I love you.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
As a very very happily married man of twenty two years.
You're never too young to look and you're never too
old to you know the difference.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well, that was that was how we met. Everyone fell
in love with you, I believe because the video may
not not even come out yet, or I think MTV
rushed that in as a like on they started playing
the performance. Uh, and I remember meeting you guys. The
I think the convention of that short lived show, which
I really enjoyed was I think we put you all

(39:13):
on a pillow, the cast and Jenny and Jenny pretended
to interview you, and I was off camera, which is
where I look best, way off camera as this podcast
and zoom show, asking questions. And everybody loved you, and
I will tell you, I don't think we've run into
each other. You know, different shows. There was a show

(39:33):
called grand Kids. There was you know, a Grammy the
Tribute to the Beach Boys. The most notable time Phil
was I had I broke bread, specifically bagels with Hanson
at my tennis club.

Speaker 6 (39:47):
Yes, I remember that very clearly.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
And my entire family fell in love with Hanson. It's like, yes,
and you have a lovely family, you really do.

Speaker 5 (39:55):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yes, Tulsa the hotbed of bagels you can find.

Speaker 9 (40:01):
You know, but there's a sour dough place just around
the corner. We altogether some some bagels. Yeah, it was
a very specific thing.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Man. When it's right, it's incredible, that's right. Yeah, it
is true. I mean I would say one interesting thing
about I mean, many interesting things have happened, and we've not,
thankfully of a really really long career just to be here.
But you know, back to the beginning of our story,
I really think the fact is I mentioned acoustic when
we went on at that time that was twelve years old.

(40:31):
I think when that was actually happening, and you know,
I hear, I'm fourteen, and we sang that song which
people considered this very very pop, very kind of you know,
produced and the sound what they thought was sort of
a polished recording, but really it was back to a
simple song written by three kids from a garage. And
that performance, you know, showed it the first TV performance

(40:52):
he ever did, just his acoustic guitar, some voices and percussion,
and and I really think the saving grace of us
being able to be where we are today and then
for better or for worse, because we've made many worse
and many better. But we've we've always we've always been
speaking from who we are, and I think breaking so young,
like you see so many people that have really crumbled,

(41:13):
and frankly people that were you know, in their twenties
and thirties that crumble under you know, a lot of
sort of global reach.

Speaker 6 (41:19):
Because this business is hard on you.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
It's it's a yeah, it's very it's narcissism. And then
there's like you know, poison in every glass, you know,
and you know, you go out there, you're like, we're great,
Oh we just died. But I think I think that
we're all coming back to this question of how do
you get from here to there? And the fact is that,
the fact that we were always songwriters and we're always players,
I think it's been a huge bridge to help sort

(41:41):
of get us from the beginning to now. Because you
you go through changes and you don't wake up at
twenty five and you're like, now this is who I
really am. It's like, well, we've always been coming from
somewhere that was real better. You know, like if you
can eating back to Jenny McCarthy, you know, on the couch,
it's just kind of like, Okay, well, yeah, here we are.

Speaker 11 (41:59):
What struck me and continues to amaze me about you
three is the beautiful harmonies. That's what That's what stuck
out to me in the in the in the phenomenal
pop song the first one and bop and without the harmony,
it's just a nice pop song. But the harmony says, oh,

(42:21):
this is real musical talent. And I guess my question
would be where does that sense of harmony? Where did
that come from? How did that start? The harmony part?

Speaker 6 (42:35):
To be honest, I think it's in eight in in
all of us. Our parents are both singers. Our mom
got a full full ride scholarship to North Texas State
as a vocal major, and she, while she loved singing,
she didn't love college. And she just said to herself,

(42:58):
you were just like, listen, I love singing, you know,
I'm good at this, but this is not my bag,
you know, And so she just decided that she would
go back home. And my folks got married, you know,
I think in their second year of college, or would
have been their second year of college. And so so
she just worked and did you know she was a
teacher at one point in a variety of other things,

(43:19):
and then but that innate talent in her. And then
also our dad was also he started off as a
arts major in school. He went to OU and then
decided it was impractical and he didn't like ballet enough.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
He became a responsible accountant father, and they began raising
a very large family.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, and is it true that you're ten thousand hours
to use a phrase that everyone uses? Now, how true
is it that when your dad took a job. I
believe it was overseas and you had a I forget
one anthology of like this is what I remember from
the old days. It was like a fifties sixties anthology.

Speaker 6 (44:02):
It was nineteen fifty eight. It was twenty singles from
nineteen fifty eight. It started off with Johnny be good.

Speaker 9 (44:07):
Well, you got to back up and go this is
pre internet, pre cell phones, like pre pre shoes, this
is this is fette tapes right there aren't even compact
discs really not really beginning to start. And so we
had one like our mom's like what can I take
with us? We're going to live in Ecuador and Venezuela.

(44:29):
At one point we were living in a in a
single wide on a drilling camp in the jungle.

Speaker 6 (44:35):
Yeah, and yeah in Venezuela.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
And then another day we were living in a house
that is now the embassy of a small nation.

Speaker 6 (44:41):
Yeah exactly. I was like either on inspection, yeah exactly,
but we she You know, if you remember back in
the back at that time, you would have not just
commercials for like you know, GINSU Knives, but you also
have these commercials for Time Life Presents. Yeah, the roll era, right,
you know, And it was like and the first tape

(45:01):
was from nineteen fifty eight, had Johnny be Goods, Summertime, Blues,
splitsh Splash, Good, Golly, Miss Molly Rock and Robin Tequila. Yes, yeah,
Sweet Little sixteen is on there. I mean, there's a
bunch of just classic songs. But the coolest thing about
those songs, in hindsight is they are two minutes, two

(45:23):
minutes and thirty seconds long. And so the best, the
best lesson you get in songwriting is condensed songs like that.
And what we didn't I think realized at the time
was what we were doing by Osmosis was learning the
kind of pop song structure in a very in a

(45:43):
very condensed way. You know. It's like, wait, these songs
are only two minutes two and a half minutes long.
And when you do that, you don't have this like
I'm going to be a prog rock musician. You go, no,
I'm going to write songs like Chuck Berry did, songs
like Eddie Cochran sang you know whatever this is, and
and then you know, and then you get you know,
you're like, oh, he played real good like you.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
I think it was there the spirit of connection too,
like they didn't have to have you heard that with
a voice and with maybe a fairly simple arrangement is
so visceral, so powerful. Those early records are so like
immediate and raw. Yeah, you could be a kid and
just start singing and get get some of the energy
in the spirit without being at even halin to replicate

(46:26):
some epic.

Speaker 6 (46:27):
Rock WORCD which would have been happening at the time. Yeah,
in the pop world that he was God dude raw
And were you.

Speaker 8 (46:34):
Aware were you aware of the kid groups that had
gone before you, the Osmonds, the Jackson's.

Speaker 9 (46:41):
Not not in the quite the mod larity of the
fact that they were kid groups, but but listening to
the Jackson five very quickly after that, going wow, these
are our peers, like Michael Jackson was eleven twelve, right right, yeah,
we wow, they're just like us. Maybe we can do that.
I think that was seeing yourself kind of in a

(47:02):
different form, going like that's that's a real thing.

Speaker 6 (47:05):
Well, and also realizing that even even the Beatles or
even Elvis or some of these guys were very very
young when they started. So there's this utilization that while
we are young, and this is kind of a crazy idea,
it's not an impossible idea.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Right you know.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
In fact, in fact, it really a particularly rock and
roll was a young person's sport. I mean it was
a teenagers invented. There's all kinds of amazing music.

Speaker 6 (47:29):
You know.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Frank Sinatra was young, but.

Speaker 6 (47:32):
He was a heart throw, was being heart throw, you know,
and he was the first, right yeah, one of the first.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
But even in eras where you know, where contemporary music
was a little more adult, you know, the big band
era that had a band leader was forty or fifty
year old guy potentially, but rock and roll was like
throughout the window and here came like it was teenagers
and it was energy and it was a.

Speaker 6 (47:51):
Band of three or four or five people, it just yeah, happened.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
So I think we just we just didn't see the barriers.
We just began to fall in love and create and sing.
And also people who begin to hear you a little
bit and they go, what is that?

Speaker 6 (48:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Who are you you like? Why are you harmonizing? Why
are these kids harmonizing rock and roll songs like as
if it's their music? And for us it was because
it was. It was it was personal less. It was
just like our discovery.

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Speaker 12 (49:20):
Sitting It Home O.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
The Brennys gasps and harassed.

Speaker 13 (49:24):
So his penny and meats nice goose penniless down to
the media town and Penny re elect games. It's diy
scas goose aras tend to fly.

Speaker 5 (49:46):
So let me go back for one second, because the
harmony to me is.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Yes, is key?

Speaker 5 (49:52):
Does mom or dad teach you that?

Speaker 8 (49:55):
Do they come in one day and when you're singing
together and go, you know what, if you take this
higher part and you take this lower part, it'll be better.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
How does that happen?

Speaker 6 (50:03):
Our dad had Our dad had this kooky little like
quirky little thing that he would do at the end.
So you'd like say a prayer over the evening meal,
you know, or something like that, and he'd go, well,
and then we'll say amen at the end, but we'll
go amen amen, and this third fifth and so we
do that, and so in a sense, that was also

(50:25):
a very rudimentary training in a certain sense to hear
a hoard. And then we also all started at around
the same time as first kind of getting a fust
into rock and roll. We would we started playing piano
in some capacity. Zach. Obviously you were very young. You
started when you were interesting one.

Speaker 9 (50:42):
Yeah, I started piano earlier than that, because I was
not with Donald Ryan, but probably six or seven. Yeah,
And you know, I think it's partly just what you're
surrounded with. So Isaac's talking about our parents naturally singing,
you know, they were singing almost games, you know, teaking
those things, not even intentionally as a teaching tool, but

(51:06):
just as knowing our dad now, especially as a father,
thinking about who he is. It's just the way he
a little nerd and solid information.

Speaker 5 (51:16):
You know.

Speaker 9 (51:17):
And then church, I mean you have to talk about church,
because our grandparents were in Church of Christ, which is
no instruments, all right, all singing, harmony, and so just
how you grew up churches where people everyone, whole congregation,
one hundred and fifty, two hundred and fifty people harmonizing together.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
And then of course rock and roll is gospel music
that's just gone.

Speaker 5 (51:40):
Awry exactly exactly, like.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Like watch me.

Speaker 9 (51:48):
I was gonna say, it's gospel music, but they're worshiping
a different god.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yes, exactly, it's it's Chuck Berry worshiping that sweet little sixteen,
which now would have to be sweet little eighteen or
twenty one rings differently.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Ye're like light before.

Speaker 9 (52:09):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
One of my favorite moments of my whole life was
my wife and I had just got who we've met,
just got engaged, and I took her to the opening
of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and she
was backstage with me and Chuck Berry was sitting he
was about to play with Bruce Springsteen in the Street Band,
were sitting on a you know, a speaker, and my
wife looked at him and goes, who's that nice old man.
He looks sweet, And I said, honey, stay away from

(52:32):
that nice old man.

Speaker 6 (52:34):
He's he's he's divorce.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Well, I should had terrible judgment in men.

Speaker 9 (52:40):
When she urged me, wow considered a body.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Yes, like oh my gosh, yeah, no, that's that's amazing.

Speaker 6 (52:48):
I mean Chuck, Chuck.

Speaker 9 (52:49):
Brought us a great many good things, and he had
some bad character quality. Yeah, that's spin documented now and
we just have to live.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
With I said, honey, away from men the ladies room.
When he's around.

Speaker 8 (53:04):
We'll get Yes, we'll get past this this part quickly.
But people have to know just how phenomenal mbop was
in the world. It was in how many countries number
one at the same time.

Speaker 6 (53:17):
Well, I think as far as actually at the same time.
I think technically, I know that we were the first
band to have a single simultaneously number one in the
UK and the US at the same time. Yeah, I
don't know how many of those how many weeks were
actually in alignment as far as at the same time,
but it's something like twenty five twenty.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Yeah, right space like Noppens. It's one of the I'm
telling you, it's one of the most astonishing entrances into music.
And I can I saw it because I literally had this.
I remember it was a clear cassette with just Hanson
written on it, and I played it for I went
around playing to people like an evangelistic fan, and and

(54:01):
and everyone. Everyone flipped out and denial. But when Phil
says it's a nice pop song, it is one of
the greatest pop songs of all time. I actually think
it is a profound record, and to prove that, I
think I'm going to begin this episode before anything here's this,
I'm going to go to a record that proves and

(54:21):
I am a fan. For this interview, I listened to
everything you've ever done. I went back, Oh my God,
and I want to use. The only old songs I
want to use are the new version, recent version of
from the String Theory record, which you did with BET's father,
David Campbell String Arrangements. I think it's one of the
best records, not just one of the best readers you've done,

(54:43):
it's one of the best records anyone's ever done. It's astonishing,
and it proves the musical greatness of beyond the harmonies.
This is a great great songwriters, great producers, and they
have a fight for that privilege. But we'll begin with
that version of Bop because I don't I think it
is actually lyrically if you break it down. The crazy

(55:04):
thing is you were wise beyond your years. I don't
know if you were get picking up wisdom from I
don't know from where.

Speaker 9 (55:12):
We were lucky to be exposed to songwriting early, right YEA,
when you know I was four or five in South
America right, just it's like you're obsorbing like a sponge.
You don't even know why you're listening. And then when
we started making the choice to be a band, that
meant not doing any other things. And so a lot

(55:33):
of our peers were on the soccer team or going
to birthday parties and on Saturdays and Sundays we were
playing concerts, right, And then we started we were homeschooled,
and so we started doing gigs in the middle of
the week because we could do school assemblies and we
could do things that that allowed you to have the

(55:54):
freedom to do because you weren't in this, but you've
got to be here at six am and you leave
at three eight pm because you were you know, I'm
your next teen. But Umbop shows this reflection of the
message we were getting for our parents and the message
we were coming to naturally, which is, hey, life is
full of all kinds of choices, and if you love something,
you're gonna have to pursue it, and not everyone's gonna

(56:17):
agree with you, not every gonna understand you.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Right, we're already experiencing rejection. It was. It's a strange thing,
and I'm so grateful for it.

Speaker 8 (56:24):
Now.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
The lyric of that song which you're pointing to, you know,
the very first lyrics of Umbop, which is, are you
You have so many relationships in this life only wanted
to last. You go through all the pain and strife,
you turn your back and they're gone so fast, sold on.
The ones that really care in the end will be
the only ones there when you get old, start losing
your hair. Can you tell me who will still care?

Speaker 5 (56:42):
It's amazing, like this.

Speaker 9 (56:44):
Is this is kind of like both sad and tragicy,
Like it's.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
It's your it's like you. It's like you started out
as teens doing My Way by Frank Sinatra. It's like
it's a mid life crisis song. It's fantastic, it is.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
But well, I'm grateful for that because part of what
I was pointing to you earlier, and again you're so
gracious in your introduction, is is we that may have
been wrong or it might have been right. Regardless of
whether it was and regardless of whether it was going
to become incredibly popular, it was us going through life
talking about it, putting in it a song, and so
through the years, regardless of the days, people have not

(57:22):
understood it and have zero idea and other days where
we get to actually talk about those stories. It was
your story. And I think that's an incredibly how powerful
way through the journey we're even talking about in Humbaba Well,
because that you have to start with what you care
about and blue and kind of can attach to because
that's all that's really going to be there. The other

(57:43):
stuff sort of comes and goes.

Speaker 6 (57:44):
Well. In two minor caveats about that, One is you
asked about influence as you hear people like the Jackson
five and you hear a song like Ben and you go, WHOA, okay, right,
and so you kind of get permission almost in a
sense to be melancholy, even as a young twelve.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
And had to write about a yeah right, which is weird,
very small list.

Speaker 12 (58:07):
You see the cover of that single, you're like emotional depth,
the emotional so exactly but for songs about rats. But
then the other I think the other element of that
is that you know, when you have permission to kind
of kind of go into that kind.

Speaker 6 (58:26):
Of place, you start to realize, well, I can write
things that are about what's going on in here that
are not purely contextual to me being this age and
I think we always kind of instinctively knew that, but
there but it it just things like that added a
certain level of permission in your own heart and in

(58:47):
your own head to say, you know what, I'm not
just writing a song about my own life in this moment.
I'm trying to write a song that has relevance to
someone older than me as well. And so that was
there was certainly a conscious goal.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
I think people understimate too, the depth of emotion young
people are having, you know. I just I think when
you look back on your life, most people have very
profound thoughts about the feelings and the struggles they were.
Most people can't articulate them right, And as society tends
to go, you're twenty, now you can be a real person, right,
and it's like, gosh, most people's deepest, hardest, you know, darkest,

(59:24):
most challenging things go back to that time of youth
where they're coming into humanity and they, like you said,
they can't figure out how to say it.

Speaker 6 (59:33):
And you know what, our gift to be able to
be kids their age sharing those kind of thoughts and
even songs. I think it's reflected also in songs also
on that same you know, debut record like Weird, where
it's talking about a similar theme. It's actually very much
coming from the same place that Ambob was coming from,
which is like, Wow, we feel like we're kind of

(59:54):
out of place, we feel like we don't fit, and
so we're kind of writing about it. And it's very personal,
it's very real, and and just kind of embrace it
and embrace it and you and and because in a
sense you say to yourself, well, if I feel this way,
I'm sure other people feel this way too, and maybe
this is gonna be something helpful for someone else.

Speaker 8 (01:00:14):
Also, So when you guys write a song, let's say it,
you write that song, the first people that you played
for are your parents.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
Wee man, we were a living room band. We took
over the house. I mean it's hard.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
So they hear you, they hear you actually writing it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Yeah, it's happening. It's happening in that.

Speaker 8 (01:00:33):
When it's finished and and you played for them the
full thing, do they look at each other in high five?

Speaker 6 (01:00:41):
Look, I have five children. I have five children.

Speaker 9 (01:00:46):
If three of them are doing anything with a smile together,
yes I am high five everyone I can see. I
think they were just elated that they had three boys
of different.

Speaker 5 (01:00:59):
Ages nicely together.

Speaker 9 (01:01:00):
They're just playing nicely together. They're doing they're literally making harmony. Right,
You're like, can you just live in harmony?

Speaker 6 (01:01:21):
Love?

Speaker 9 (01:01:21):
Dad?

Speaker 10 (01:01:26):
Where's the love?

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
It's not enough, it needs rounded rounded. Where's the love
just giving it up round and bounding.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Let's talk about brotherhood because Phil, I don't know if
you if you know his story, but Phil created Everybody
Loves Raymond. Everyone just wanted him to create a million
more sitcoms, and he had a passion like uh, like
your dust brother friend for food and travel and the world.
And so he and his brother Richard have created this

(01:02:04):
smash Netflix phenomena global hit of somebody feed Phil. And
you know, yes, he has to only get along with
one brother for the last like ten years, right.

Speaker 5 (01:02:15):
Which brings up the question why would you work with
your brothers?

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Why?

Speaker 6 (01:02:19):
It's always a great question. Okay, here's how why you
do it?

Speaker 9 (01:02:22):
When you're trapped in a little man. You don't when
you're young, you don't know anybody.

Speaker 5 (01:02:27):
That's right, You have no other friends.

Speaker 6 (01:02:28):
Yes, this is the only guy I know. I guess
they're all like this.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
There's a lot of levels. I mean, one, you you
do have the positives of it is we really have
a shared we have a shared sort of heritage obviously
literally heritage, but musical and educational, creative. You have this
connection that's hard to explain.

Speaker 7 (01:02:46):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
And and it is a shorthand to a point where
it's genuinely shorthand. And harmony is an example. I mean,
we will walk into a room and someone will hear
a song and I'll just someone will sing a note
and and it just harmonizes. And some of that is
just thirty years of doing it. Others is DNA.

Speaker 6 (01:03:03):
And also it's also memorization of songs, so you know
what the melody is, and you know what the you
know where the chord goes. And then there's also the
parlor trick of the fact that you always revert to
the melody. Zach always reverts up and I always revert down,
and we can and basically we can just track that way.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Right now, Okay, I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:03:23):
Yeah, year's yeah, sitting and cord and skate on top
of blue Hill.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Mm hmm, the King one moment, but not all. Please
don't tell.

Speaker 6 (01:03:41):
Me give mess sunshine see.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
Yeah, gorgeous. Back to the gospel days.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
And what's amazing is as Phil started over the weekend,
I was sending him some things to watch about you guys,
just to show uh your story. And he goes, have
you seen this? And he sent from the Sydney Opera
House the too Much Heaven and he was flipping. He
was flipping out over that.

Speaker 9 (01:04:10):
Nobody gets too much heaven.

Speaker 6 (01:04:14):
No, mo is much harder to come.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
I'm waiting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Nobody gets too much.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Loving is as high as a mountain.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
And again, like there is that brother thing, like I having.
I've had to I've written liner notes for the Beach Boys,
for the first box set by the Beg's, and there
is the brother thing is crazy.

Speaker 9 (01:04:46):
It's just it's a special thing. It's a superpower really
to have this.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Annoying as it is. There's a thing.

Speaker 9 (01:04:57):
But because part about being brothers is is not I
think the fact that you are brothers, because usually I
think that's an advantage. You start off in the same bedroom,
listening to the same music, having the same influences, eating
the same serial. You're as close to twins or clones
as you can be. Your vocal courts are genetically almost

(01:05:18):
the same, or as close as you can get. The
hard part is when you have as much history as
Brothers have and you inevitably grow and change.

Speaker 6 (01:05:28):
Yep.

Speaker 9 (01:05:28):
Can you live with the fact that the guy you've
known for thirty years and worked with for thirty years
is now not quite the guy that used to be
in the band?

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Right?

Speaker 9 (01:05:39):
He has new ideas and new skills and new ways
of one to do things.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
And now.

Speaker 5 (01:05:46):
It's what is the reminding exactly right now you are.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
You're not thinking like a three headed hydride And I
think it's it is it's exactly that. And it is
also you know, the fact is that that that's I mean,
that's true of relationships. I mean, you know, you go
through how to marriages, last how I mean not to
get weird, but it is a little bit of that
evolving towards positive, towards something and realizing you're not going
to be the exact same person and still finding those things.

(01:06:12):
And it is interesting because we've had a conversation about
a project, you know, called Brothers where that connects the
dots with the brother There's so many connections with music
created by Brothers and the you know, the Oasis examples,
the one people always give. Look, how conflict. They are,
but it's actually way way, way, way more you know,
prevalence throughout music and in constructive ways, and you see
it over and over and it's it's just because people

(01:06:34):
are I mean, I believe people are naturally creative, whether
whether we give ourselves that Moniker or not. Most humans
we're not robots. I mean, we just aren't. Were made
to make things, invent things, think about how to make
it a little bit better, and so there's creativity. If
there's a little bit of creativity of a certain way
in some family circle, more than likely there's someone within

(01:06:55):
your shot or eyeshot that's like got the other side
of that coin, you know, like drummer, guitar player, keybord player, harmon.
You know, you're finding the formation of a thing, you know,
like there's a widget there that connects it.

Speaker 7 (01:07:08):
Well.

Speaker 6 (01:07:08):
From that, Our our grandfather, our dad's dad was you know,
saying in a barbershop quartet for years. Our our dad,
our mom's parents, her dad was a very good singer,
beautiful baritone voice. But his his brothers, many of his
siblings were literally touring musicians, playing you know, playing trumpet
and singing and all that kind of stuff. So, I mean,

(01:07:30):
you know, it's it's in the DNA in some large sense.
And on a technical level too, when you talk about
the brother thing and the kind of superpower that that is,
on a technical level, it is really just that your
voices are as similar as they can be for all
intents and purposes without being identical. And then the thing
that happens is it's phase cancelation. This is a technical

(01:07:55):
thing of the wave forms are interacting with each other
in a very unique way. It creates chorusing, it creates
this course effect, so that brother Trio now sounds a
little bit bigger in a different way for people would sound.
And it also kind of blends together in a way
that is uniquely like it's like one instrument, but it's

(01:08:17):
not what's going on there.

Speaker 5 (01:08:19):
Okay, but you don't see this. If if this was
just brothers, you'd see a lot more of guys like you.
But we don't.

Speaker 6 (01:08:27):
Well, I have a technical thing. Part of the research.
We just say people aren't making babies as much larger. Yeah,
larger families. If you have less larger families, you're going
to just have less of that.

Speaker 9 (01:08:42):
That's just that's just somebody needs to go to Utah
and look.

Speaker 7 (01:08:49):
Brothers.

Speaker 6 (01:08:49):
Yeah, the Catholic families.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Yeah, people have always Catholic.

Speaker 6 (01:08:55):
Neither one either, But I think I just like to
not think about it. Our parents really liked each other.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
All out, but everyone's I do think though, I mean,
I feel just hitting on that it is harmony is
something that is special and we we just One of
the greatest gifts of having a long career is also
you begin to be able to have relationships and connections
with people that are heroes of yours and boys a
great example. We've sung and played with the Beach Boys

(01:09:20):
times over the years. We sang for Brian Wilson's induction
of the Songwriters Hall of Fame five years twenty four
years ago when he was inducted, and we sang, of course,
what was wrong with us? We chose to sing Heart,
one of the hardest songs, most beautiful songs now I
think recognizes maybe the greatest pop song ever, you know, beconceived.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
On our on our this week's podcast, our podcast, we
broke down our favorite albums and said that is the
greatest song of all.

Speaker 7 (01:09:44):
Yeah, it only knows, it's one of the truly, it's
great with it's great because it's crazy simple sounding and paid,
but the chordal structure is not simple at all, and
when I wanted to point that out, to connect the
dots to what the message I was trying to lead towards,

(01:10:05):
which is this generational thing and harmony not being there
as much. We now have gotten to know and be
honored by and by working with people like the Beach
Boys and uh Doobie Brothers. Great example, we just sang
it Grammy's Hall of Fame for the Doobie Brother's induction
of what a Full Believe was inducted as a song
in their Hall of Fame.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
And the Doobie Brothers are in town. I have Michael's number,
Michael McDonald d legend, the Lovely Man, Michael McDonalds podcast,
and so she's so fantastic. Yeah, we didn't sing with
him last the other night, but but just him going, hey,
you did his proud phenomenal you know arrangement. I was like,
oh my gosh, they're so kind and so awesome. As
a fan, but the Doobie Brothers, the seventies bands that

(01:10:46):
you had, this band, bands with harmonies, you had bands
with you had even you know, gosh, I mean think
about well, three Dog Night, Three Dog Knight. You think
about there was a whole wave of bands with harmony,
and that's accidentally kind of how we became a seventies
rock band.

Speaker 6 (01:11:04):
We listen to the same stuff that the seventies rock
bands listening.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
So there is something about I don't know if it
is partly trend and time and arc of influences in family,
you know, volume like Seck say, but harmony is is
a gift and you don't hear it enough, and so
it is it's really you know, we feel, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:11:26):
It's almost like music is disappearing from music.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
A little bit, a little bit.

Speaker 9 (01:11:32):
They don't want to I don't want to sound too old,
but you're right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Beyond interesting thing.

Speaker 9 (01:11:39):
That that's happened with the digitization of music and the
fact that you can do it alone so easily with
amazing samples. I make all kinds of music alone in
a you know, my office. But there is something lost
by the fact that it's not played with people the
way it's intended, to the fact that it can be perfected,

(01:11:59):
and you can you can never perfect another person's performance
without them adding their imperfections.

Speaker 6 (01:12:07):
But to get to the technical thing maybeing the the
engineer brain goes, well, the reason why perfection is not
actually the goal is again it's about phase cancelation. When
you line up waveforms exactly in line with each other,
they start to cancel each other out in negative ways.
And so actually what happens is it shrinks, it doesn't grow.

(01:12:29):
And so the beauty about that weird internal metronome thing
that happens when other people are playing with each other
is that you're not actually technically in perfect time with
each other. You're in some weird relative place. And one
of the most beautiful articulations to me of that is
playing with symphonies back in twenty twenty nineteen for the

(01:12:53):
String Theory project is what's crazy about symphonies is that
the note actually gets wider because it is not tempered tuning.
It is fingers on a fretboard. And so somebody's one
scent sharp and somebody's one sent flat, and what technically
happens is that note is three cents wide. It's a

(01:13:14):
very strange, weird thing, and you don't notice it until
you hear it.

Speaker 5 (01:13:18):
You know what it is, it's it's human.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
The human ear loves it.

Speaker 9 (01:13:25):
Well, yeah, I think ultimately what we're talking about about
umbop is that it was also incredibly true. That's I
think the part that made it right. You would have
to be as young as we were to come up
with a sound like mbopop right and sing it with
complete reckless abandon and confidence. If you would have been

(01:13:49):
three years older, that's stupid, that's not cool.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:13:54):
We were like, hey, it sounds cool.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
Let's do it right.

Speaker 9 (01:13:57):
We were bravely kind of going out there the beauty
of that lyric, just like Ben, just like God only knows, right,
is it's true? It's really true?

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
Right?

Speaker 9 (01:14:09):
God only knows if it was like somebody only knows
that what you referenced it to the eternal? Right, they've
given the related with the woman something beyond the existence
of life, and it made it so rich and deep
and rooted. And I think that's that human thing, like

(01:14:31):
when you go into the human and then into the eternal.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
That's the robots will rust and die. The robots are
effects similar. We will take over first, definitely, it's a
is going to figure out how to sound authentic. And
then it was all only knows what I've been without you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
We have addressed your greatness. I want to say. The
other thing I love about you is that you were brothers.
I I was around to watch you become brothers with balls.
You when you say you became a seventies band, that
was not a right given to you. At a certain point,
you had to fight. And there's a documentary called I

(01:15:49):
don't know if people can still see it. I don't
know if it's online, but strong enough to break a
documentary that sort of captures that moment. And I remember
just intermittently running into you. If you could just give
us a synopsis of what I remember, is that Mercury
Records began. I think at a certain point they were
sort of sold out or bought out by death Jam
and you, after this astronomical success, you had to show

(01:16:14):
serious balls in standing up for your right to make
the kind be the kind of group you wanted to be.
Is that Am I remembering that right?

Speaker 6 (01:16:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
It's accurate. I mean, there's lots of things, and everybody
has a piece to tell that, but it's really in
the end, we had this astronomical success in the first
record and immediately completely separated from Hanson anything to do
with us. The merger of Universal and PolyGram happened. When
that happened, it was a large thing.

Speaker 6 (01:16:37):
In between the first and second record, which is really
an unfortunately crucial So.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
We began to see immediately after that success like what
it means to survive, what it means to go further
than success if you're on your own. We got that
record out, we basically lost the whole label that signed
us when we made our second.

Speaker 9 (01:16:54):
Yeah, that's that's the part that you lose. It's theoretically,
companies merging might not change jennything. It's a logo on
a record, But the problem is when the whole staff
turns over and the guys that signed you are gone.
And we happen to be a little bit of an anomaly,
especially in the late nineties where we're like this seventies

(01:17:15):
band that's doing pop music and kids and kids, and
it just you really needed champions.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
And what really ended up happening is we you know,
we lose the champions, But also we weren't. Nobody was
gonna let Hanson go. It wasn't. It wasn't like and
forget those guys.

Speaker 4 (01:17:31):
We were.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
We were an asset. This crazy you know, big success,
second eight million records on your second record we did
did really well compared to most every record that gets
released on Earth, you know, but but not nearly what
the first one did because it was labeled it basically
six weeks after the least of the second record that
we got through and made, which was also a record,
one of the most record was proud of. Almost the
same team we made the first record with. They basically

(01:17:54):
were like, Okay, time to do solo records, and you guys,
you know, they just they basically just dropped an energy.

Speaker 6 (01:18:00):
We literally left, We literally left some promo that we
were doing for that second record this time around, you know,
And it was a struggle to get that record made
for a variety of reasons, because we knew, amongst other things,
that that the label was in flux and really did
not get us. We had. You started to see kind

(01:18:20):
of the the leftovers of Universal and so on and
so forth slowly get fired, you know, Steve Greenberg and
Danny Goldberg and all these people that were amazing huge risk,
huge risks on signing us in the first place, and
then a lot of the people more from the hip
hop world started to take over. You were like going, like, oh,

(01:18:41):
we'refin size were outside of and Son the pop music.
But we're leaving, We're leaving a promo period there in
New York City and we're literally in our hotel room
talking to the president of the label and the chairman
of the label group and they're like, yeah, so you're
the band is uh Damaged Goods. You have a damaged brand.

(01:19:05):
You need to do solo record.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
We saw a million copies on the Damage good record.

Speaker 6 (01:19:09):
Yeah, that point that at that point they and the
yes and so what what what?

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
Maybe what happened next is we stepped into the next area.
This is kind of the testing period, and we were
we were passionate about Okay, we're gonna prove it through
the music. We're gonna we're gonna bring this team on board.
They're never gonna let us go because we're this glowing.
We sold millions of copies. They don't know what to do,
but they're not gonna let us go. And so we
went out and pursued people that we thought were amazing.
We pursued people that were up and coming now or
like crushing the world, like Greg Wells who's producing and

(01:19:36):
written like Endless Things. Matthew Sweet, who we thought was
an amazing artist, artists that we respected, producers like Mitchell
Frum and Chad Blake, and we basically went after, we're
gonna write and make this next third record, and we
essentially just realized turned the camera on. That's when we
made the documentary to show the music, and we realized,
you know, slowly, that we were never gonna move the

(01:19:58):
not the mountain that was to corporate company that really
wasn't even about handsOn or anyone else. They were just
living in this new world that we're now all suffering under,
which is this corporate driven, corporate dollar you know, top
chart chasing group. That is people that are just failing upwards,
executives that are just getting fired to then get hired
by the next thing because they were part of something else,
really really big before and so we're kind of a

(01:20:21):
collateral damage. And so we made a decision at some
point to finish a record on our dime as well
as dimes that we were you know, going to recoup, yeah,
you know, and said, look, here's the record. What was
really unique, and this is to try and jump ahead
to kind of where we are now, which is this
we're twenty years since.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
We did this, the Underneath record, which we made an.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Album called Underneath, and the pivotal point, just to jump
ahead and kind of kind of balance it out, was
we were seeing something that this is. So it's almost
painful and grotesque to say out loud because it seems
so embarrassing, but it's so true. The industry genuinely didn't
think the Internet mattered the digital platforms. They really didn't,
and so they were sitting on the hubris of retail

(01:21:01):
and radio and print and magazines and MTV dominating, and
we were, meanwhile, a band that had broken less than
ten years before that, with twenty early twenties and teens
still on our third album, being like, guys, we have
message boards and fans in every country on Earth messaging talking.
We have an active fanging us to put out a

(01:21:23):
record saying why has it been three years? And we're
going like, even if you don't get this, even if
you're the rap label that doesn't know what the hanson is. Yeah,
we sold a bunch of records, but you don't know
what's do with this. We've a band that has fans
all over the planet. Just let's let's finish this record.
Let's let's get it.

Speaker 6 (01:21:36):
Out, Let's keep it going.

Speaker 1 (01:21:38):
Like our heroes are Tom Petty and Springsteen and the
you know people with careers.

Speaker 6 (01:21:41):
Let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
And so we had to make a decision to say,
we're going to finish a record, We're going to present it.
We're gonna say take it or leave it. And they
they they went, we don't get it. And so we
we got ourselves off the label. We didn't. We had
to fight to get ourselves off the label still. And
the thing we chose to do with the help of
a couple, you know, people with some balls, some other
whole new team. Everybody was new new management, new label. Everything.

(01:22:04):
We built a you know, the concept of a new
indie label and distributor of music. Had launched three CG
Records with a song called Pennion Me and in the
You two thousand and four, I mean, and that was
like and here we go. Everything's on the line, you know,
And now it's been that's twenty years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
And twenty years later you're putting out I think it's
coming up in October, right, it's going to be called
is It Underneath Complete?

Speaker 6 (01:22:26):
Is that the Yeah?

Speaker 9 (01:22:28):
And I find some way to like bring that together.
This is basically underneath the album, plus songs that were
recorded but not released as part of the albums, with
demos and finished recordings because there were so many recordings
for that record, and then we did some new recordings too,
because it's just you can't for us. You always have
to keep adding the new creativity to what you're doing,

(01:22:51):
and so that was important.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
So in this episode, we're gonna put a link to
order this record.

Speaker 6 (01:22:57):
I'm ordering one.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
I'll be the first to order it because there's already
a track. There's a version of Penny and Me. I
guess you call it Moonlight version. And last night my
wife and I have a new puppy and there was
fire We're doing this on the July fifth. July fourth
was his first puppy experience of Independence Day and fireworks

(01:23:20):
all around Los Angeles, and so I had headphones on
trying to be as quiet as I could not to
wake the puppy, and I literally listened to Penny and
Me Moonlight Version. I went to sleep at one am
and was woke up to it, and I listened to
it a hundred times while I was awaken smiling because
this the underneath record really is where you took a stand.

(01:23:43):
It is an unbelievable record. I have so many Penny
and Me is just in any version, but that version,
the Moonlight version, I just think is exquisite. I do
have another question about a track from the record, which
is in addition to being I believe one of the
first fans of Hanson, I was the guy who reviewed

(01:24:04):
and was the first champion of the new radicals. Uh
And and I think my only reservation if I go
back to my review, I know I had expressed this
at the time. I didn't like what sounded potentially like
a little bit of a I didn't know how ironic
a slap at Hanson, at at Beck and Hanson Kelly dying.

Speaker 3 (01:24:27):
Empty man is dying by compute and crashes down and
call him well them love them.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
She went back in.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
Manti Young Mansions coming.

Speaker 2 (01:24:48):
Uh And now tomorrow night I'm going to see Beck.
Still I never understood you're going after Beck whose last
name is Hanson. So I thought for years I tried
to think, is he going after Beck?

Speaker 9 (01:24:59):
Hand?

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
But I think he was going after Beck.

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):
He was referencing Hanson, So we yeah, you're referencing him,
because Greg we wrote a song with him because we
also loved that record. You know, I mean, you know
what you got the music in you, what's the actual.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):
You get what you give, you get what you give,
what you get, what you have.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
You amazing, so amazing pop song. And and he is
he's just an odd dude. I mean, he's just kind
of his his whole style of communication is not is
not so straight ahead. He's very about what he's making.
I didn't really like being famous. But he's a phenomenal writer.
He's a great musical thinker. And yes, we wrote a
song with him and had to ask that same question

(01:25:37):
when we sat down during this record.

Speaker 6 (01:25:38):
He tried, he tried to kind of say he didn't
do it. But anyway, we wrote a great song with
lost without each other.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
Absolutely love it. We can hear a little of that
one too. There's one more because I actually think Greg

(01:26:19):
is a very odd genius, you know talent. You know,
that's very uh. And by the way, I remember when
I wrote about that song, Joni Mitchell, who's pretty good
in the songwriting front, in the interview I did with
Rolling Stone, said that's the only good song that's been
written in the last twenty five years. You know, which
is not was not true because it was umbop, but

(01:26:41):
I always thought that was my praise. Here's another genius
who who came across at least, uh Taylor, I think
at least you got to know him, and it's someone
who you got to know. And I just wanted to
bring him up because I recently did. We did a
podcast with America the Guys from America, and I forgot
we didn't talk about Adam Slessinger, who was, to me

(01:27:03):
another one of my absolute favorite creative forces. I got
to know him as I was a total fanboy, and
then because he wrote themes and comedy songs for TV
shows would I got to work with him and collaborate
a little with him. But I was always such a
fan boy. He couldn't believe that. The last time I
saw him was Valentine's Day twenty twenty. Usually I saw

(01:27:25):
him at the Emmys when he was winning and I
was losing, but I did. But Valentine Valentine's Day twenty twenty,
I think I was in a crowded bar with him
and it was right as that was right as things
were beginning to get bad. But I just I guess
I wanted to ask, at least Taylor, I don't know
if the other two what did you love about Adam?

(01:27:45):
Because you were in a band called You did a
record of Tinted Windows with Bunny Carlos from Cheap Trick,
and I guess with yeah, James's what's your memory of
how great Adam was?

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
Well? What I mean, for one, we all did meet.
The first meeting of Adam was him as a He's
about ten years older than us, and he was beginning
to break with foun Zu Wayne and was also trying
to be a songwriter on this as well. And I've
done that thing you do for an amazing movie. And
we came to Red together and we didn't get anything
that made it to that first record, but we'd stay

(01:28:20):
connected because he was just a generally curious musical person
and he was you know, was within striking distant age wise,
and so we all knew him a lot. But but
Adam was just he really was a genius and was
truly and he also I would say Adam actually knew
his lane.

Speaker 4 (01:28:36):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
I think what's really funny is not not to say
he couldn't do anything, because he really could do so
many things. But he also understood.

Speaker 9 (01:28:42):
He didn't good, he didn't go writing opera.

Speaker 4 (01:28:44):
He went.

Speaker 1 (01:28:45):
He understood, he really understood, and was was endlessly curious
about the best pop song about and the power pop
particularly which we know the world knows this of him,
but I'm just going to emphasize it as a guy
that did it. As a part of that is, you know,
this idea of pop songs with guitar, like loud guitar
plus great melody, which we kind of need to keep

(01:29:06):
alive because it's it's so good when it's good, and
it's just it's just pop songs with bands, really, but
particularly not as much as the gospel R and B
side of things, but that straight ahead thing that came
out of bands like the Kidnings and Cheap Trick and
then of course many many other offshoots and so yes,
we had a band called Tenny Windows that we formed
and it really was the premise of like, again, let's

(01:29:28):
make the perfect power pop band. And I'll say a
couple of things. One, Adam was always so was always kind,
always always interested in hearing kind of the you know,
the ideas of the other guy in the room. But
at the same time he had so many good ideas
that it was always hard to find a way to
be a better one, you know, and so he was
just one of those guys that always that was so

(01:29:51):
full of what he was going to create, and that's
why he was so successful doing so many different things,
doing film, doing TV, having multiple bands. I still can't
believe that he's not here. It doesn't make any sense
at all. He was certainly the closest person to me
that died due to COVID and I mean still have friends,
and I will say I still hope to honor that

(01:30:11):
and him in a musical way, you know, in a
more meaningful way. And what a cool thing, you know,
just coming back to the legacy of music and you
know to this that album, that album one of the
greatest things of Underneath and then also the Tended Windows
album is getting to connect with people you deeply respect
and then share a story with them, like we get
to say now on this tour we're doing for the

(01:30:33):
Underneath Complete album, we have Matthew Sweet coming out and
playing supporting the tour. What a great, amazing thing. We
have a fan of Planet who were just becoming kind
of a making a great, great pop power pop record.
Any years ago, and we've stayed connected to these bands,
but we've.

Speaker 6 (01:30:49):
Men both and men worked with and met both of
those guys during that under Eath album, which is what's
so kind of full circle and fun to be able.

Speaker 1 (01:30:56):
To do those shows with them attended windows like as
that example, like somebody respect people respect, and then you
turn around like and then in my drummer Bunny Carlos
like what car player James e Ha, we were like,
what is going on? I remember walking into the anytime
you walk in room with James zy ah, it's hilarious.
Particularly man, they'll be just the look and be like, hey,

(01:31:16):
good to see you, and then they'll stop. I'll be like,
is that what is that?

Speaker 9 (01:31:22):
James fucking Eha is like a unicorn.

Speaker 1 (01:31:25):
Yeah, And it's not just it's not just a psiconic status.
It's it's just what he's contributed. And that's the great
gift I think of time is if you get to
do what we've gotten to do, you do get to
not just make your own thing, but you get to
sort of ender, You get to kind of cross with
people that you just admire and respect, and then you
know that becomes a part of this collective story. I

(01:31:47):
just think that is definitely a part of the underneath story,
Like that album has a lot of that.

Speaker 5 (01:31:52):
So do you guys remember the first time you met
the kind of dark side of rock and roll?

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
His name is Kim Falley. Actually, there's a few. I
mean there's a few names.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
I mean we because I did you literally meet Kim Falley.

Speaker 6 (01:32:10):
Kim Valley is the first introduction we really had two
that music business. Business to the business.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
Really for those of us who don't know, For those
who don't know, educate us. Go watch the Runaways movie
or read a book by any of the Runaways.

Speaker 1 (01:32:28):
He was a legendary. He's a songwriter and also a
manager and producer and sort of an artist discoverer. Right,
he's a.

Speaker 6 (01:32:37):
Tucker Driver.

Speaker 1 (01:32:40):
Promoters.

Speaker 8 (01:32:41):
But you guys are literally innocent coming into this world.
And do you remember going, Oh, we're not in Kansas anymore.

Speaker 9 (01:32:48):
This is ye.

Speaker 6 (01:32:50):
We'll do our body to kind of tell this story.
We actually really haven't told this story almost at all.
But back in so this would have been somewhere around
ninety three ninety four.

Speaker 1 (01:33:00):
We two years before signed.

Speaker 6 (01:33:01):
Being two years before being signed, we we had kind
of made some a cappella of an acapella record, but
we hadn't really kind of advanced into kind of more
complex arrangements and things like that. So we our dad,
trying to be the diligent kind of accountant father, responsible
dad goes, my kids are told that I got to
figure out something about this whole like music business thing

(01:33:22):
and see if I can figure it out. And it
just so happened that there was a music business conference
being held at, you know, a random hotel somewhere, these
couple of people, and then it was in legendary producer
songwriter Kim Fallely. So my dad goes to this thing,
and the story is basically something to the effect of,
you know, Kim says something like, you know, how many

(01:33:45):
of you guys think you're gonna how many of you
guys are convinced you're gonna make it? You know, And
somebody stands up and goes, my band's gonna make blah
blah blah blah blah, and he and Kim Falley just
kind of ripped him a new one and says, there's
no way in hell that's gonna happen. And then my dad,
being kind of bold, stands up and goes, well, actually,
my kids, who are you know, twelve, ten and eight
years old or something, actually younger than that probably you know,

(01:34:07):
they're there.

Speaker 1 (01:34:08):
They've got it.

Speaker 6 (01:34:09):
They've got it. They've got it. They're cabable. And he goes, well,
where are they and and and my dad goes, well,
they're at home, and he goes, we'll go get them.

Speaker 7 (01:34:16):
Cool.

Speaker 6 (01:34:16):
Yeah, he's cool. He goes go get them.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
I think I think he thought you were twelve, eleven
and fourteen year old girls.

Speaker 6 (01:34:22):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 12 (01:34:25):
Know.

Speaker 9 (01:34:25):
When we came back, Kim, he said, well you think
you can write a song, here's a topic.

Speaker 6 (01:34:30):
But hang on, remember we all go before that. Before that,
he had us go up. Our dad showed back up
after the break because it was like a lunch break.
My dad goes and gets us, brings us to the thing.
Kim goes, oh, you brought your kids, and stand them
up here and let's see what they got. And so
we stand up there and sing like three like two songs.

Speaker 1 (01:34:48):
I have heard that.

Speaker 6 (01:34:49):
Yeah, so I'm like and they're mostly like rock and
roll covers or something like that. He kind of goes
in three bird harmony and he goes, okay, all right,
and now he goes, and then he goes, I'm going
to give you a test. Write in a song with
this theme.

Speaker 1 (01:35:00):
In the next hour.

Speaker 6 (01:35:01):
In the next hour.

Speaker 9 (01:35:02):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:35:03):
So he gave us a theme.

Speaker 9 (01:35:05):
Yeah, we went and wrote a song, came back and
he goes, huh, okay, I mean it wasn't great.

Speaker 6 (01:35:12):
You need to come out to LA but yeah, the.

Speaker 1 (01:35:14):
Theme was imagine. Yeah, and we wrote a song called
the Magic Well.

Speaker 9 (01:35:19):
Juicy standing here is more than just a bull.

Speaker 6 (01:35:24):
Yeah it was.

Speaker 9 (01:35:25):
It was not our greatest song, but it was a
real test. I mean to stand there and be in
the you know, lobby of a hotel and just figure
it out. And it was more like we wrote a
commercial to Kim Valley about how good we were. But
you know, that's sort of sometimes the balls you have
to have, even as a kid, just to go for it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:45):
It is important to remember that though, because you when
you live in your own movie, which we all do,
you forget the plot sometimes and you don't remember like
the stories you've gone through, and that Kim Valley led
us directly to an exciting time. Our first trip to
l A, our first trip to pitch bands, to pitch labels,
and he also led us directly to our possible end
of our life as a as a we have to

(01:36:07):
say left turn on, which was a he was had
a very close relationship with Mike Curb and Curb Records,
which are notorious for making really really terrible deals for
some of the most successful artists, but very terrible for.

Speaker 2 (01:36:16):
By the way, two of our past guests, uh Lyle
Love It is very familiar with that. Uh and uh
Donnie Osmond.

Speaker 1 (01:36:24):
You know Osmond's for example, and also monkeys.

Speaker 6 (01:36:28):
Leon Rhymes is famously was famously frustrated with her deal.

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
We were offered. We went, we we went to LA
and the direct line from Kim to other things we
chose not to do, which you know, again he's been
very successful. Was not the person we were going to
get in business with. Was a direct offer from Curb
Records in like at.

Speaker 6 (01:36:46):
Uh in Nashville, in no no, in l a oh
no no no no, you're thinking of okay, so you
have you have Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:36:55):
That's where was Michael Kurb.

Speaker 6 (01:36:57):
That's my that is producer of Michae Lloyd's Michael Lloyd.

Speaker 1 (01:37:01):
But it was Michael Lloyd's house for the Mike Curb
for a Curb records offer. So my point is that
Mike Kurbs and Mike Lloyd's house Mike uh mikes too
many mikes. So that offer was a deal that would
have owned a large percentage of the publishing of songs
that we wrote for the seventy five publisher and so

(01:37:22):
we we were advised by somebody that was, you know,
at the time, the only person we hired, which was
an attorney, to not take that deal, and so that
would have been was the attorney looked at our dad,
so is.

Speaker 9 (01:37:34):
This like a fun thing or like a career thing,
Like do you think your kids actually really want to
do this? And our dad goes, I think they want
to do it for a long time.

Speaker 6 (01:37:41):
He goes, cool, run.

Speaker 5 (01:37:45):
Run, Well, I'm going to thank David for letting me
meet you too.

Speaker 1 (01:37:51):
Yes, Phil, I would love to meet you over some food.
Come out room call.

Speaker 2 (01:37:57):
Okay, Well, here's a question and when when you hear that?
So we have to find some excuse to do it,
like an event for you, let me host one with
or they can host it in Tulsa because I could
be wrong. I don't think I've ever been to Tulsa,
which is crazy, and how.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
A flood and beer and music converging somewhere.

Speaker 5 (01:38:16):
Ye beer absolutely be.

Speaker 9 (01:38:20):
In l A at the what is it November October,
kind of early November.

Speaker 6 (01:38:26):
I think something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:27):
We will get together.

Speaker 5 (01:38:28):
I would love to eat with you guys. That would
be great.

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
Yes, thank you, We'll eat some you picked the menu,
will bring the you know, the unwanted dialogue around whatever subject.

Speaker 5 (01:38:42):
I'm married for that I have that.

Speaker 6 (01:38:45):
I will say.

Speaker 5 (01:38:48):
Don't. That's the end.

Speaker 14 (01:38:52):
Naked Lunch is a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and David Wilde.
Theme song and music by Brad Paisley, produced by Will Sterling.
Executive produce by Phil Rosenthal, David Wilde, and our consulting
journalist is Pamela Chalon. If you enjoyed the show, share
it with a friend, But if you can't take my
word for it, take Phil's.

Speaker 8 (01:39:09):
And don't forget to leave a good rating and review.

Speaker 5 (01:39:12):
We like five stars.

Speaker 14 (01:39:12):
You know, thanks for listening to Naked Lunch, A Lucky
Bastard's production.

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