Stand Up Lunch 2 with Jeff Ross, Larry Wilmore, Chloe Fineman, Kevin Nealon, Jimmy Pardo, Wayne Federman & Elaine May

Here's Part Two of some of Phil & David's favorite conversations yet with some of their funniest friends who just happen to be comedy icons from a few different generations. To learn more about building community through food and "Somebody Feed the People," visit the Philanthropy page at philrosenthalworld.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Oh, David, oh Phil.That first compilation of stand up Lunches was
so fantastic. I think we shoulddo it again because laughter is the greatest
tonic and appetizer it is. It'svery good, it goes very well with
food, it pairs well with life. Yes, people, here's a bunch
more of our favorite funny guys andgallons. Let's build the means to the

(00:37):
fat food for thought, jokes ontaip, talking with our mouthsful, having
fun with the pas of cake andhumble pies, serving up slice love.
Leave the dressing on the side.It's naked lunch clothing optional. We begin

(00:59):
with the Roastmaster General himself, JeffRoss. I'm sure there's somebody who can't
stand the idea of me chewing intothe microphone. But you got nothing on
the link. I heard Henry Winklerdo it, so I feel okay about
it. The fans can do it. He's cool. You're cool, Yeah,
thank you. So you're working,you're working at the catering hall.
Yeah, what says to you?You know? I like Don Rickles.

(01:26):
I want to do something like that. It was who was it? It
was the rock stars? It wasafter done. I didn't know, Don
and Buddy and those kind of guys. And by the way, one of
the reasons I was a few minuteslate today was Pat Cooper died today.
Oh I'm sorry. I didn't knowthat, and I really found out just

(01:47):
as I was leaving. I haven'tquite processed. And he was a legend
in my life from the Friars Clubroast and other stuff we did together.
But he was not only a greatcomedian on the Howard Stern Show, which
I'm sure we all, he wasone of the greatest actual real life characters.
I mean, he was fascinating,amazing, and he'd get so mad

(02:09):
and all that was real. Isaw him get mad about crazy stuff,
and but he also had to knowdeep down that as he's yelling that this
is funny, of course people arescreaming, yes, you know. And
I can tell a couple of Cooperstory but of course, but the for

(02:30):
me, it wasn't those guys.It was it was it was. It
was Eddie Murphy and the Blues Brothersand Steve Martin, and those were the
comics that made me want to bethat I looked up to. No,
No, all that came way laterthat I wanted to be a comedian.

(02:51):
I didn't even want to be acomedian. I wanted to be a rock
star. I wanted to be somethingelse. I didn't want to be a
caterer. And I still know threechords. I was in punk rock bands
in college and stuff like that.It wasn't until a couple of years after
college my buddy Mark Schapin, whoI just hung out with all weekend,
yeah, said you know, youshould try comedy. You're kind of funny.

(03:12):
And I was living with my grandfather. I was just some chubby loser
living in New Jersey with my grandfather, and I took an open I took
a writing class taught by Lee Frankin New York City, and I got
the bug. I was the bestone in the class. Told catering stories
about the restaurant business at open micsin like, you know, just authentic,

(03:34):
real kind of stories. Again,that specificity of writing. What you
know, Yeah, he knew potroast before he was roasting in the pot,
or knew anything about resting. Andthat was it. It was sort
of this happy accident of a buddysuggesting it. I never would have thought
to be a comedian never occurred tome. I thought to be a comedian

(03:57):
you had to be an old Jewishguy in a tuxedo. Congratulations, you've
gotten there. I've gotten there finally, And so it was really sort of
you know, when I was akid, I'd go see Eddie Murphy at
the Passaic the cat whatever that wasthe Capitol Theater in Passaic, or I
remember seeing the Blues Brothers on SNLand Steve Martin, Wild and Crazy Guy.
My first concert was Steve Martin.He was opening act. My first

(04:20):
person I ever saw in concert theNitty Gritty Dirtpin, a Blue Gars band
at Carneie Hall. His first Oh, Steve Martin Unknown an hour before he
was on SNL walked out. I'mnine, and he goes, he had
an arrow and he walked out intosaying like I just inherited a million dollars,
so I don't give a shit ifyou laugh. And I looked at
my dad. He goes and hesaid, my dad said, this man

(04:41):
will never make it insil years later, I got to write about Stephen rolling
Stone and mentioned that he must havebeen thrilled. Yes, you know,
food in comedy. For me,it's all very connected the days, those
days in the catering business as akid is how I learned insult comedy to
have thick skin. My uncle Murrayran the kitchen and I rolled meatballs and

(05:03):
made fruit cups, and he wouldtease me and pick on me, and
I was ten eleven, twelve thirteen, and I would I learned to take
a joke, dish it out,take it. You know. We had
a our kitchen at the catering halllooked like the United Nations. The potwashers
were all Haitian guys from Newark,and the Sioux chef was the guy making

(05:28):
the jello molds was Hungarian. ARussian guy was making the salads with me,
and the chef was a big,loud guy, Kenny from the Navy
and Navy cook and the waiters wereall French and Scottish. And the waitresses
so I really learned ethnic humor andbeing the boss's son, I had to

(05:50):
take a lot of shit. Sothat's where it all really came from.
It wasn't seeing the comedians. Myparents passed away when I was a teenager.
My memories of Rickles and Hackett werehearing them on Johnny Carson. I
didn't see them because I would hideat the top of the stairs. So
I didn't hear my dad laughing atDon Rickles, so I got the timing.

(06:13):
I didn't see what these guys looklike till I was older. You
weren't missing much. We had ourwhole episode with Brad and Ray were all
four of us told stories about howmeeting Rickles various times in our lives was
like the high point of our lives. And you think, like the irony
of a guy who was considered,you know, mean as a comedian,

(06:38):
and yet every one of us hada story about how much we loved him
and how he was the sweetest experience. Can understand why I thought that was
your main influence when you were starting, because you've become his I don't want
to say replacement. He would notlike that. No, but you you

(07:01):
are. You are championing that formof humor that started with him, and
now you are the master. Thankyou. I have a lot, a
lot of respect, buckets and bucketsof respect for Don, and and knew
his family well, still friends withhis daughter, Mindy nice and I had

(07:24):
great memories with Don, great experienceswith Don, especially early on later on.
Did he insult you right away?The very first time was I was
with my pal Adam Ferrara at anaward show and Don was being honored the
American Comedy Awards or whatever Schlaughter hadback then. And I remember we were

(07:45):
very young, and this would havebeen the nineties. Still, we saw
Don Rickles at a front table.We were in the back in our tuxedos,
and Don saw us. Adam said, Adam was also getting an award.
Adam Ferrara, very funny guy.And Adams said, you know this
is the night we're gonna go meetDon. Come. I was his plus
one. He said, come,let's go try to say how to Don,
and Don could see us coming froma mile away, two young guys

(08:09):
who looked like comics coming towards him, and Adam went, mister Rickles and
Don just said, kid, don'tmake a thing. And then years later
at the Friars Club, they askedme to perform at a tribute to Don
and he sent me a beautiful Ikilled and he sent me a beautiful note
which I have framed in my house. And from there it was years and

(08:35):
years of watching him, learning fromhim, running home to see him on
TV and stuff like that. Weeventually became very friendly. He never let
me get too close, I think, and I was always jealous of that.
He had Sagged and Stamos and Kimmel, and it was like he didn't
want another comedian in that mix.They were very clear about that with me.

(08:56):
He didn't want to stand up likeme that mix. And my fiftieth
birthday, I remember he was onI was having dinner with all my friends.
And he would always have dinner withKimmel when he did the show,
and he was doing show that night, and Jimmy said, I can't go,
Don, I can't have dinner withyou. It's Jeff's fiftieth. Were
taking him to Craig's restaurant on Melrose, and so there I am. And

(09:22):
Don was very upset about that,you know, and Jimmy obviously invited him.
He said no for whatever reason.And there I am. I'm at
the table a dozen a dozen ofmy guys right. Couldn't have been a
press Jesus at the last supper.It was perfect, you know, and
I'm holding court and who's at thenext table, Don with his publicist but

(09:45):
themselves, you know. So hewanted to go, but he didn't want
to say he wanted to go.He eventually came to my birthday parties.
I used to have parties in theback of Sherry Hackett's house, Buddy's widow,
and Don would always call my birthdayparties with Bob Newhart. And eventually
I wound up speaking at his memorial, and oh you know what, even

(10:07):
before that, Yeah, it gotto a point where if you were a
big shot turning fifty or sixty,you kind of had to have me and
Don speak at your birthday party.And we did a lot of that,
and I'd always have to go onright before him, and I always had
notes like John Stamos said, pleasecome roast me for my fiftieth You had

(10:30):
a black Tith thing at Tower Barat Sunset Tower Hotel. And I worked
a week on a speech for JohnStamos's birthday, you know, and Stamos
had asked me to do that,so I had great jokes. John Stamos
is so handsome. His birthday candlesblow him with stuff like that. I
wrote some pretty solid jokes. Ikilled Son goes up right after me.

(10:56):
I think Saga was introducing us andDon, of course evisceraates the room just
kills, but particularly teases me forpreparing, for having notes, and then
Dom go off the cuff. Ofcourse, Don kind of did the same
thing he always did. You kindof knew the jokes, he was going

(11:16):
to do, the shots he wasgoing to take. Yes, but the
cadence was so perfect. But yeah, and he made everything kind of like
sewed it in and made a tailormade and he was so heartfelt and genuine
about it every time. Yes,you know that. You know it was
a total home run. But hedid take a shot at me for preparing,
and John afterwards was very upset aboutthat because John asked me to prepare,

(11:39):
asked me to roast him and said, then he's making funny you for
doing that. And I said,you know what, I'm kind of jealous
because Don can get away with goingoff the cuff. He trusts himself and
he doesn't have to sit around stressedout for a week about what he's going
to say like I do. AndI was a little hurt that night,
to be honest with you, butI was like, hmm. A couple

(12:01):
of years later, there we are, he's gone, and Tonio whispers in
my ear, could you say somethingat the memorial? I'm at a shool.
I'm in a temple and you know, I'm Jodd Apatow sitting with a
hand kind of like you know.And I was like, well, here's

(12:22):
Don teaching me something. I'm goingto get up and I'm going to speak
off the cuff. And I didand it was great. And I've learned
the spirit. His spirit spirit moveme. And that's what we did.
And now when I get asked todo these kind of birthday parties in toasts,
instead of letting it consume me forweeks, I go up and I

(12:45):
trust it. Well, here's theother thing you have, now how many
years experience exactly? And Don helpedme channel that. Don really helped me
channel that. I mean, I'veseen people who really ought to prepare right,
think they're above prepared, right,But you've put in the outlier number

(13:05):
of hours in your craft, andso you can sum up a situation.
I'm also pretty sure knowing you thatyou have a few bullets in the in
the there's always stumped it, especiallywhen you really know the subject. I
always feel that people go, doyou ever get nervous before you go on
stage? Only when I'm not preparedor I don't know what's coming at me.
I remember speaking at Buddy Hackett's funeraland I was really devastated. These

(13:28):
are all funerals, I know.Maybe it's the pack hooper thing my mind,
I get, but it is funnythat that's that's when you needed the
most. Don Sat happened to besitting next to me, and he after
my eulogy, you know, hegave me the whole like leg and I
knew I did well. And buthere's the last Rickles thing. Yes,

(13:50):
it's all coming back. It's it'sthe cars from the sandwich flooding my brain
with Rickles Monterrey one. We haven'teven gotten whatever this Coka power ruey thing
Andori thing is. By the wayhe passed away. I knew his brother

(14:11):
Chicken, Chicken. This is agood one. Milton Borough's funeral. I
was honored to be invited Forrest Lawn, I guess, and and I had
just been there recently for like anotherfuneral, so I knew that there was
a private bathroom for the families behindthe the bema whatever you call it in

(14:37):
a funeral hall. And it isa long service. And after the service,
everyone filed out real quick to goout to the grave to Bury Milton.
I loved Milton Borough so much,and he was a good, good
friend and a mentor. And Iknew about this secret bathroom because I had

(14:58):
recently given up buddy speech there.And so I run into this men's room
and I really had to go.And this is the time that I knew
that Rickles knew me and respected mebecause I'm in that bad men's room that
no one knew about. I'm inthere, guys, maybe sixty seconds to

(15:18):
do my business, wash my hands, collect myself. I opened the door.
Don is standing outside the door withhis hands on his hips like he's
been waiting for forty five and heseizes me and he looks me up and
he down and he goes, whatwas there? A dais in there?
Yeah? Roasted peace. Don.Here's comedian, writer, producer, actor

(15:46):
and all around comedy great Larry Wilmoretalking about creating the Bernie mac Show.
My roots are in theaters, citytheater, all that stuff. So you
know these I like thinking conceptually andthat kind of stuff, and so I
thought, okay, that's an interestingyeah, but it didn't have any substance
to it yet. It was justtechnical, you know. So I didn't
have a story. I just hada technical idea. But I loved it,

(16:07):
you know. And then I sawKings of Comedy and I saw Bernie's
routine about taking care of his sister'skids, you know, when he said
things, I believe you should beable to hit a child in the stomach
of the front and I'm like,oh my god, about beating kids,
and he goes, come on,you know, burn Back would never do
that, you know, I loveand he would call the audience by because

(16:36):
he was in Charlotte, North Carolina'sor whatever. He called them all the
same thing. And I thought,this is the relationship he has to the
audience is fantastic. And I thought, this story is a great emotional story.
Sisters on drugs, you have totake care of kids. That's the
show. I said, if Iput that into this and we observed it,
we can just watch behavior, wellthat might be interesting. And so

(16:57):
I pitched it to Bernie and heloved it. That was great. We
pitched it around. People didn't quiteget it, but Fox got it.
They uderstood it immediately and ordered it. But then I had to write the
thing, and I said, nowI gotta write the damn thing. Yes,
and it went against everything I hadlearned because it was a different rhythm.
It wasn't the rules of sitcom.It wasn't multigam, it wasn't this.

(17:19):
The conflicts weren't the same, wereobserving BEHAVIORSH do I write that?
I was like, you know,and I knew I had visual cues in
my mind. The space was alsogoing to be a character and how the
action operated in the space I alreadyhad. I pitched a little bit of
that, some of the cues Ihad watched. I was talking about this
with Ken Kwampis later who came's director. But I was I had watched some

(17:41):
like New Way French films, youknow, and that type of stuff,
just trying to get that feeling likebreathless, four hundred bows, things like
that. You know, it's amazingthat that's an influence on the Burning Match.
I know this is a true storyfilm. Yeah, it took me.
I had overall the Disney had firedat that time, but I stayed.
I kept going to my office.Yes, so I would just wait

(18:03):
to the guards, you know thatkind of stuff. We're in a lot
of electronic digital stuff and hey,how you're doing guys, and I torture
myself. I'd be in my office. I wrote the same three pages every
day for three and a half weeks. Right, some day I wouldn't write,
and it couldn't be past that thirdpage. I couldn't find the tone
and I couldn't find it. Right. I was panicking. I thought,
why did I even pitch this stupidthing? This is gonna be the ruin

(18:26):
of me. I'll never work again. All those thoughts. Right, And
one of the things I did,I had tapes of the real world and
I would play it and at theact break. You know, normally at
the act break there's a manipulation,usually because you have to go to commercial,
so you want to hold your audienceover. And the manipulation is related
to the plot. So and sodid this What's gonna happen? Because of

(18:48):
that? You know, that's whatyour act break serves it. It's a
television convention. There's there's no actbreaks in films, you know, it's
it just keeps going, right,So it's a it's a convention of theater
too. You know you're gonna haveintermission. You want people to come back
after the mission, So there's aquestion at the court break. It really
is a convention more than anything else. It's the it's the second most important
thing, yes, after your premise, but it's But keep in mind,

(19:10):
it's connected to the plot, tothe action of the show. Right,
there's something there's a question about theanswer. On the real world, there
wasn't this at all. That's right. There was no act break that was
connected to the thought. And yetI wanted to come back and watch it.
And I asked myself, why doI want to come back? And
I would play it over and over. I'd play the act break, Why
do I want to come back?I couldn't figure it out. I'm like,

(19:32):
it just seems to arbitrary break inthe in the show, But it
wasn't. And I was and Iwas like, because I want to come
back, what's going on here?Yeah? I kept asking that question.
Then one day it hit me.I go, oh, well, maybe
I'm just interested in this character's journey, right, maybe that's enough. And
that was a light bulb that wentoff for the Burning mat show. But
when you said that it really wasn'tarbitrary. What did you discover in that

(19:55):
moment in the in the act breakthey had to do it on some story
turn something. Nothing wasn't plot.All it was was I am interested in
this person. I'm interested in thisjourney that they're on, and that's enough.
So it was just enough for himto say, walk out the door,
and you want to know where he'sgoing. They didn't have to have
a question, right, They didn'thave to have what's going to happen?

(20:17):
Right as opposed to stay tuned becauseyou're gonna see more more of this person
who you give a shit about itcorrect, you're spending time with this person
and you're seeing this person go ona journey, but it's not connected to
a plot that's connected to action.It's connected to character journey, which you
can have questions about, but it'snot plot. Okay, one day I

(20:41):
got I looked at my laptop andI was gone, oh, I'm on
page four. That's interesting, andit poured out of me. For the
next thirty six hours, it justclicked. I got it, I got
the tone. All that stuff I'vebeen watching finally made sense. I kind
of rested in it. I justlet the scenes be what they were,
and then I tell people a yearand a half later that script w on
the hemming. Wow, And it'scompletely unconventional, completely unconventional. All my

(21:07):
fights with the network was because itwas unconventional, because the stories were it
was a different type of storytelling,you know, and it was taking So,
yeah, there's no plot in thatpilot, but there's a journey,
Bernie says, I got this.Yeh, Bernie, second act? What
is this third act? Okay,this is what I have to do.

(21:29):
God, you know when you talkabout that's the emotional threat. So it's
an internal story. It's yeah,it's a character journey, journey, but
we're enjoying it because we like seeingthat character on that journey. That's enough.
Here's what it's not. I mightlose the kids if I don't do
this, right, not a question, that's right. The questions never posed.
Yes, I might lose my job. No, no question never posed.
It's not an issue, no plotcontrivance. That's a question for us.

(21:53):
What is a question is how isBernie going to handle this? That
is a question, and the stakesare high because it defines him who he
is. Correct, Yeah, absolutely, right on thousand percent true, because
it defines who he is. Sowhat we're doing is it's an internal story.
We're creating drama out of character revelationrather than plot contrivance, right,

(22:14):
you know, And now you seeso many shows like that, But at
the time, nobody was doing thattype of thing. And so you're writing
these kind of unconventional scripts and thenetwork is responding to you by saying,
giving me notes based on the otherthing. And then we should fire this
guy because he obviously does he does, he's incompetent. He doesn't already doing
right after he won the end?Yeah, right, Like I remember four
and after I was on the chandelThat was when we were together. You

(22:37):
were nominated for that you won,Yeah, we lost. That was for
the tribute to heroes. You wonfor Bernie Mac and then you were gone?
How long after that? Months?But and in the bathroom, and
I talk about this in the articles, I Sandy Grushaw to the person who
I'll say with my mom, Well, I guess we can fire him.
Now. That's insane. I mean, how cynical is that? How about

(22:59):
our team won? It just speaksto the business. Yeah, was a
deep throat Mark Feld. You know, can you reveal it? No,
it wouldn't be right. And butthey honestly thought I was incompetent, and
I'm not kidding around with that wordincompetent. I didn't know what I was
doing, you know, like somehowthere's this great show that I don't know,

(23:21):
a ghost created, and somehow I'mtrying to ruin it. They had
no idea how I deconstructed the thingthat they're actually giving me notes about in
order to create this thing. Well, you're in a very good company,
yes, of people who were misunderstood. Yes. And I will say this
just to interrupting for a second.Phil Rosenthal was a voice in the wilderness
back in those days. Because Icalled you and you were a personal said

(23:45):
quit and I said no, hesays quit. He said, the show's
not gonna last forever. It's notgoing to go in anyway. Do the
show you want to do, ordon't do it at all. And that
was such good advice. Instead ofquitting, I decided to do the show
I wanted to do good, youknow, and then I got fired.
But at least but your advice wasgood because I was from the same showrunner

(24:07):
right who who did Baby Talk,the same maniac set. Gave me the
best advice I ever got. Dothe show you want to do. In
the end, they're going to cancelanyway. That's what you said. That's
exactly what That's that I lived mylife, that I took those words to
heart. I quote you all thetime when I tell people, do the
show you want to do. It'sjust television. It's not gonna last ever,

(24:29):
it's going to go wait at somepoint, but you that you will
have a record of this show.You want to show your grandkids that VHS.
So that's that's right, the showyou wanted to do. That you're
proud of that later in life allyou got because otherwise you have this compromise.
That's terrible. Well, but atleast I was there for three seasons.
It's like, well, who caresyou know, why were you there

(24:51):
for three season? Right now,nobody wants to say that. One wants
to take credit. No one wantsto you know, No, we have
to thank you, Phil after allthese years. Well you can tell the
voices in the wilderness. Oh thanks, thanks that told me that I wasn't
crazy. I tell kids filed Ispeak to kids, uh meaning high school,

(25:14):
college or people starting out in thebusiness. Always quit, that's advice.
Stay in school, No quit.I don't mean quit over all this
this guy coke is is not coldenough you. You take it as far
as you can take it. Butif if the car is about to smash
into a strick wall, jump outof the car. What are you crazy?

(25:37):
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(26:48):
of the stars of Saturday Night Live, comedian and actress Chloe Feinman, making
a great impression on phillin. David, tell me your high points high Yeah,
I mean things that really stand out. Oh, there's so many.
I mean, is it every timeyou get to go, I really feel
like that I was at a concertand then you get so spoiled because you're
like the last time I saw Lizzo, I was like right there, which

(27:11):
is yeah, she was like allthese people like it's I don't like crowds,
I'm gonna go. Yeah, It'sa delight every even the audition was
like I remember the first time Itested, I like saw Kate in the
hallway and that was like the biggestcelebrity sting of my life. Yes,
and then your impersonation of Kate.It's she's also like kind of a flowy

(27:40):
little scarf of a moment. Shehosted the independent film The Spirit Awards when
I really wow and I just watchedher filming a little you know, opening
film. She radiates more talent almostany you've ever seen just ease. She's
one of my favorite people. ButI think something happened during this downtime between

(28:00):
seasons, during this hiatus, youdid Drew Barrymore finding that window. First
of all, her finding the windowin and of itself was an event.
Yeah, a delight. It's firstof all dead on and it's such a
unique impersonation. Nobody does her that. I mean, that's the key,
right to find the one that nobodydoes. Everybody knows in yes, I

(28:23):
feel like, yeah, even auditioningfor us and all, I was told,
like, don't do Drew Beer.Everyone does Jennifer Coolidge. Everyone does
Drew Beer because it's an overdone DrewBarrymore is overdone. I think so.
But then I was like, I'venever seen it. I was sort of
like, have you seen mine?That's right? And I begged and I
insisted you have a hip hop confidencein this regard. I really do with
Drew, but we are like LaurenHill. Who else does he? I

(28:47):
think if you see like a showof people, I don't know, it's
sort of like all because it's likeyou can do that like lisp thing with
your lips and like, I don'tknow, maybe girls growing up always did
it. I never saw it before. Well that's very kind and I absolutely
fell over doing that window. Didyou read some of the comments on her
window thing? You know, ifyou went outside and looked at the house,

(29:11):
you would have seen the window.That's so funny. You didn't hear
that one. Now that's so good, isn't it? Yeah? But she's
adorable. She's adorable. And wesaw the clip of you on her show
with her, and that was duringCOVID, so you couldn't hug. You
have to keep a distance. Yeah, yeah, I know it was so
distant. Yeah, we couldn't touch. And do you know, Phil,

(29:33):
can you imagine if she would doa short promo for Naked Lunch? I'm
sure she would. What would itsound like, Chloe Naked Lunch where you
eat the most delicious food they've had? Nancy silver Head, My god,
the mozzarella you're killing me? Reallygood? Jeff's house, everybody, Wow,

(30:00):
get his pickle? Which host wasthe nicest to you? We won't
go for the alternate question? Whichwhich one? I want the alternate?
Really? You asked the alternative?Okay, they really are all not all
of them? Very nice? AdeleI think when you really Adele was like
the nicest person I've ever met.When they're so famous, it blows my
mind how nights they are. Sheis so sweet. She was so sweet

(30:22):
and bordering on like you know,neurotic. Yeah, yeah, the way
like Ray Romano is the kind ofneurotic you want where he only hurts himself,
he doesn't take it out on totallyyou. And I feel like Adele
is very sensitive that way and verysweet and com Yes, they've all we
really I mean Oscar Isaac was Ithink, like what a great character.

(30:45):
Yeah, I think when they're reallygood actors, those are always my favorite.
What musical guests did you flip outfor? I mean when Lizzo came
that was really she's great. Ihad I wrote copy for her on the
show, and she's great. She'sgreat. Al do you know her?
I mean I met her not wellun in here. Yeah. David Byrne

(31:06):
was really huge. That was awesome. Yeah, that was special. I
think when we all come out andwatch, that's when you know it's a
good one. Can Yeah, arethere many men you do? Timothy Shallow,

(31:33):
which that's really good. Fantastic withthe Nation on Total lockdown now more
than ever. You've got time.That's why there's a masterclass Quarantine Edition classes
like Timothy shallow May teaches fashion.We're really passionate about cloth, legal of
fashion clothes. Us. Hey,it's a master class. I'm Timothy Shellman.

(31:56):
H your mom has extremes about me, and it made me think,
like, are there a lot ofgender fluidity in being able to do that?
Are there a lot of men youcould in person? You could?
Yeah? I mean there's certain onesI've been working on this summer. But
then sometimes like it'll go to aboy and that's fine. Like I remember
I had a sick Johnny Depp impression, but I was like, it's better

(32:20):
on a guy. And that wasbriefly not that you couldn't do that.
Yeah, you couldn't even do it. They I think they like, especially
certain political targets. Yeah, theythink it's extra h. I don't want
to say nasty, but biting tomake that person who would hate being portrayed
by a one totally right. Yeah. Yeah, I think like the young

(32:42):
actor you know, like Austin Butler, all those like a beautiful young men
I think are ripe for me.Oh yeah, you're Elvis. I would
go see Elvis. If you hearfrom Timothy, yeah, no, I
mean I had to do it infront of him. He let me is
his c for the He was sucha sweet but I yeah, like watching

(33:02):
him laugh while I was doing itwas really a mind trip, I think
for both of us, both ofus like delighted and uncomfortable. You know,
did you ever get a bad reactionfrom someone? I've gotten notes which
I think is funny, like lessnasal or something like that. You mean
they tell you if you're doing me, yeah, I would appreciate, or

(33:24):
if you're not doing it right,yeah, or like it's a little bit
more Midwest, which at that noteI did appreciate from that person. Do
you think it was my lips aresealed? Uh? No, A Harry's
styles. I really couldn't do infront and I tried to do that in
front of him, and I thinkhe really just because it was so bad,
was just stop. Which is goodthat you didn't go too far with

(33:45):
that, because aren't you in amovie. Isn't Olivia part of Babylon?
Yeah? Probably? Yeah, that'swhat's hard too when you start your sister,
Yeah, I want to do Yeah, Shilah buff I really been trying
to get on the show, butgotta be careful. I don't want to
put you know. Yeah, it'shard. It's sort of like there was

(34:06):
a guy even before us, theguy who did John F. Kennedy meter,
who was the most famous impersonator inthe world. But that was only
one right and when he when hegot assassinated. So it is very bad
for business, really, But thecurrent version that is cancelation. If you're
what someone you do great is canceled. I know well that, Yeah,
that happens to all of us.I mean that's the kind of the nature
of the show. I think,what's weird. Like I did a movie

(34:29):
I'm in White Noise, which iscoming out. Wow. Yeah, and
met Greta, but I don't thinkshe knows I do an impression of and
I had to take it down becauseI said something I wouldn't want. Yeah,
I don't know something. It wasfine, not that it's bad or
anything, but you're in my head. I'm like, has she seen it?
I'm so worried. Oh God,but yeah, we'll see. It

(34:49):
was fine. But you're always alittle neurotic about it because you don't want
to hurt. Anyone's schooling who's impersonatedyou to you has Judy? No,
Judy Gold My kids do it Judy. You know Judy? Yeah? I
love her. Yeah, Oh shedoesn't really do me. I think she's
just sound like brother and sister whenyou're together. You guys, really that

(35:12):
episode, it's the most brother sisterlyteasing I've ever heard. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Only one person. Ihave no distinctive characteristics, and I'm
not worthy of being done. Oneperson is impersonated me, and it was
the greatest person who could ever doit of all time and not known as
a mimic first and foremost, butone of the greatest mimics I've ever been.

(35:34):
Wrounded Stevie Wonder because like I think, you know, I sometimes like
he's not reading prompters, so Iwill read or sing for him and tell
him so he David is in StevieWonder's ear while Stevie's singing. As a
result, there have been times whenhe's on stage like rehearsing or whatever,
and he'll start doing my voice andpeople will notice it. I'm like,

(35:57):
I don't even have an interesting voice. Yes, but he's so good Wow
that he that's pretty high on.That's incredible. I'm not I'm not asking
to try. I think I gotStevie wonder. I remember when Obama did
me that could be taken out ofcontact. That could really help this episode
go viral. Yeah, here's anotherSNL veteran and a real stand up guy,

(36:22):
Kevin Neelan Kevin. On the topicof great Jews in Hollywood, we
did an episode with Ray Romano andBrad Garrett where we ended up each telling
a loving favorite story about Don Rickles. But in your case, I realized
we all and I think you werevery close to him. Obviously, I

(36:45):
think Phil knew him as well.But I have a Gary Shandling story that
means the world to me. Ijust wondered, like, what do you
have a favorite I don't know foryour book if that's the one you spotlight
in your new book, but doyou have a lot of favorite shy stories?
Do you want to hear it nowor do you want to tell years
first? No, No, Iwant to hear you. It might be
the same one. It will notbe the same one unless Mel Gibson is

(37:08):
in yours, it will not bethe same one. Yeah. Well,
I'm trying to think of all thestories, the one that comes to mind
is Gary was always asking me tohike with him, and I was always
busy or I didn't want to hikewith him. And one day I finally
decided to hike with him. Hesays, we're going to go hiking in
the Hollywood Hills. I said,okay. So I get there and I

(37:28):
didn't realize his hiking was going fromopen house to open house because he loved
houses. And I should have knownbecause it was only on Tuesdays and Sundays.
And yet I had to bring thelittle blue booties with me. But
let's say that wasn't more of astory than it was an event. What
do you got? I have tosay though, before we continue that Kevin

(37:51):
did the greatest eulogy I think I'veever heard. Honestly, I mean,
better than me for my parents,you, for Gary Shandling. I mean
absolutely it has everything. It haslaughs, it has when I mean you
were not acting this was you reallywere hysterically funny and then you would cry,

(38:12):
but it would flip flop. Somany times were you being did you
feel like you were being whip sawedemotionally? I felt yeah, but I
also felt like Gary was kind ofchanneling into me, you know, at
the time. But when I wrotethat, it took her like a month,
and I'd be on the road andI'd be listening to music like ballads

(38:34):
and things, and I was justrecalling all the times that we had together,
and and then I just wrote himdown. I can't even I can't
keep it together now, oh buddy, Yeah, I mean, but he
was a good friend. I mean, what a sweet guy and so so
almost spiritually connected to the world.So what I would do is I would

(38:57):
I would like have an island ofjokes in between my memories, just to
kind of keep it, you know, on the you know, level field,
so that you know, it wasn'tjust wasn't just crying. Yeah yeah,
and that would also rescue me bygetting a laugh, you know.
So yeah, so that was it'severything. You did him justice? Well
yeah, really, Uh, whatwere we going to say? I was

(39:20):
going to say that it took melike a month to write that, and
and I was listening to music whileI was doing it. I just did
little segments, you know, likeand I don't think I'll ever I'm the
same with you and my father's notthere wasn't as good, and my Mother's
not as good. I even hadwriters punch it up. But now Bruce
Vilanche did some lovely work on theon the mother one, I think.

(39:44):
Yeah. Albert Brooks was there atthe memorial. Everyone was there, and
he said, wow, that wassomething. And I said, these things
can be so beautiful, these memorials. They're not just said, they're like
these celebrations. I mean, it'sreally an entire overview of someone's life from
all these different perspectives, and it'struly, yes, emotional, but also

(40:07):
truly funny. And I said toAlbert, I said, I can't wait
for yours. Oh my god.I talked to Albert Brooks all the time.
Yes, and it's it's crazy tome because he was one of my
influences in comedy. I loved hismovies. Such a hero, Oh my
gosh. And now we talk onthe phone about medical issues. Isn't that

(40:27):
great? Was he going to doa podcast? We were talking about it,
We're going to do it. Whathappened? It just seemed medical issues,
Yeah, medical issues, right.It just there was a lot of
research going on and we never kindof got to really establishing what we really
wanted to do, and he wantedto do it more like a radio show
instead of having guests on and thingslike that. But he had his own

(40:51):
idea of what it was. ButI think ultimately he decided that maybe that
wasn't the right time to do it, or he decided he wanted to do
with me. He does back outof things a lot. He's very he's
fickled that way, right, ButAlbert, here's an invitation to come on
here at least if you want.By the way, here's a funny Albert
Brooks story. Yeah. Then Isomeone told me before I knew him,

(41:13):
Kerry Fisher used to have a lotof parties at her house and I went
to a lot of them. AndAlbert Brooks used to go a lot and
he I was told once that hewent to the party, he got a
huge laugh and he said goodbye everybody. He went out in a big laugh.
And then yeah, and then heactually leaves the party. My friendly's
a party like twenty minutes later,and Albert Brooks is still in the parking
lot. What and he goes,I thought you had left. He goes,

(41:36):
I did, but I forgot mycar keys in the house, and
I don't want to go back afterthat big laugh. I'll never be able
to duplicate that laugh. So wouldyou mind getting my car keys? He
was waiting for someone to come out. Oh my god, I think he
was joking. But dude, yeah, I mean he is that way.
He he's a man. This guymakes me laugh more than his brother used
to make me a laugh a lottoo. Bob Einstein hysterical, by the

(41:59):
way. Cliff also funny Cliff.Yeah, who's Cliff the other birth the
other Oh, he's the advertising guy. By the way. When Bob died,
Albert said at that memorial, hegoes, he gets up to speak
and he says, I don't,I don't. I'm speechless. I don't
know what to say because I thoughtit was Cliff who died. The question

(42:29):
is, was Park your Carcass funny? I never have heard of the father?
Yes, well you can. Youcan look him up on YouTube.
You can see it. As amatter of fact, you can see the
performance his Albert Cliff and Bob's dadwas a famous comedian named Park your Carcass.
That was his stage name. Andhe got up. He got up
at a roast. I think forDESI Arnez he killed. He was terrific,

(42:51):
and he sat down on the dais, put his head down and died.
Came back twenty minutes later said Iforgot my car keys. Hello,
take a break, We'll be rightback. Albert Brooks my favorite growing up,
absolute huge fan. Never met him, always tried to find some way
to meet him. I'm at Phil'smovie night. He came to show Defending

(43:13):
your Life and I have never methim, and I was too shy.
I would never in those circumstances goup to anybody. But the best thing
that ever happened is a great word. Senior moment becomes a magical moment in
your life. He came up tome and said, David, I haven't
seen you in so long, AndI said, I've never met you.
Wow, now I have met myHe goes, really, I go,

(43:35):
yeah, I would remember meeting you. You're a hero to me and I've
never met you. But I hadin that it's better to faux pas that
way. Oh yes, wait,what was your Gary Shandling story? My
Gary Shanling story. I will dothe very abbreviated version. Because he was
not a friend. I worked withhim a few times, and I was
obviously admired him. I think Iwas once around him and Tom Petty,

(43:57):
who you know, they had agreat mystry. But my weird moment was
when Robert Downy Junior received the AmericaCinema Tech Award. He said, I
want this the host opening spot togo to. And this was in the
height of mel Gibson's meltdown scandal,like within weeks of the second coming of

(44:19):
the scandal. The group was JamieFox, Gary Shanling, and Mel Gibson.
So I had two days. Wewent for two days over to Icon
Productions, mel Gibson's office, whichwas then a bunker trying to keep paparazzi
and Jewish vengeance groups. A bunkeris a lovely bunker. But I spent

(44:45):
two days with them trying to comeup with a bit, and it was
there's that's a whole separate podcast.I won't waste your time, but I
do remember like on the way outof the first meeting, there was a
passion of the Christ like cut outstand up by the door, and Melo
sort of kept talking to me,being very nice but sort of like maybe
going out of his way to bereally nice to the Jewish guy and I

(45:07):
knocked over the passion of the ohyou know, and again they do it.
He says, exactly exactly. Andthen after that I walked out to
the parking lot with Gary and Iwas like, so like, I just
I wanted some acknowledgement, like somethinghad crazy had gone on, and he
was so zen. He was like, what you know? He didn't that

(45:29):
didn't register to him is a moment. One time I asked him near the
end when he was not healthy.He's very private about his relationships all his
life. I said, are youseeing anybody? Gary? No, He
goes, I'm seeing one therapist who'sno. I said, I don't mean
a therapist that's very And now thebrilliant former host of Adam Ruins Everything who

(46:07):
definitely did not ruin this episode,comedian writer, actor producer Adam Conover.
We're asking about my confidence. Though, I guess I'm wondering you're did did
these I'm assuming they're brilliant because I'mnot a marine bio just or a botanist.
Did they support that? The factthat like when you tell them come
see my my adorable little improv groupat Bard and see my band in Brooklyn,

(46:30):
you know, were they were.They supportive of this stuff. They
were supportive when I finally started toearn a little bit of money doing it,
which was, you know, Ihad a sketch group. I was
in a schedule called Old English rightout of college that we got very lucky
and had some success with videos earlyon the internet. And then were you
know, able to make money makingvideos for the website Super Deluxe? This

(46:52):
is so long. It was likein two thousand and seven or something like
that. So long there, that'syesterday to me. Yeah. Well,
and so they were supportive at thatpoint. Prior to that, I had
been a web developer and I calledthem at one point and I was like,
I'm quitting my job in order justto make comedy videos with my friends

(47:13):
on the internet. And they werelike to there. And I was maybe
twenty two years old. And totheir credit, they didn't yell and scream
at me and telling me, tellme I was making the worst mistake of
my life. They were like,okay, give it a shot. You
know it was It was very nice, but they were a little bit worried
about me before that. They werelike, you get a job, what
do you need to do something,you know. So yeah, I did

(47:36):
often feel for a long time though, that I was like the black sheep
of the family for not going intoscience. But I my sister is a
science journalist. She is a PhDas well. She writes for Science Science
News magazine. But I sort ofeventually realized. I was like, oh,
I can use comedy to sort oftalk, you know, communicate about
science, communicate about other things,you know, actually and inform and enlightened

(47:58):
people in my own way. Andthat's sort of what I have gradually built
her career for myself doing, andI'm really happy about it. I want
to go back to something that thatI mentioned to day but before you came
in, I'm so impressed with yourability to seemingly talk extemporaneously out in the
field to camera. Are you followinga script? Are you riffing off a

(48:22):
script? Are you making stuff upas you go because you have such a
great knowledge of the subject. Whichof these are all of it? It
depends on the point. It dependson which point it is not reading the
the I don't generally work with theprompter on my shows. I have like
a little we do go off ascript I usually have the script in my

(48:44):
back pocket and I sort of likepull it out and study it, stick
it back in my back pocket,and then by take three, I've got
it. But that's for the sortof like informational segments where I'm straight to
camera. There was also a lotof parts in the show where I'm you
know, completely improvising because I'm workingwith another part. You know, I'm
like when I'm in the when I'min the interviewing, yeah, and when

(49:05):
I'm interviewing that's off the top ofmy head, yes, but but yeah,
I generally at that point have likemade myself an expert and whatever the
topic is, so I can talkabout it pretty pretty fluently. Well,
you've mastered it. It's it's effortlessthan the knowledge generally, yes, not
always. Like Adam Ruins Everything,we made so many episodes that there are

(49:27):
things where I will be learning abouta topic and then I'll be like,
oh, wait, I did anepisode about this like five years ago.
Yes, because we just did soso so many of them, and you
know, I mean this last showwe spent three years making six episodes Adam
Ruins Everything, we would do sixteenin one year. Wow, And so
it was a lot, a lotfaster paced, it was much much closer

(49:49):
traditional TV schedule. Rather, waitto say that again about this show three
years to make six episodes exactly.And Netflix's yes, it's Netflix plus co
of it. You know true TV, right cable, Well, you've you've
worked on television, and then versusNetflix, right cable is Netflix is still
television but almost you know TV.They're like, we need these episodes by

(50:15):
this date because we have a holein our schedule. Yes. On Netflix,
they're like, yeah, whenever youwant to whenever you want to get
to them, you know, yeah, yeah, give it to us whenever.
And they're happy to drag it outforever. And speaking of you know,
only the stars making money in Hollywood, that's a big problem for you
know, everybody in Hollywood because theepisodes years. Yeah, especially especially writers

(50:35):
because and I say this as someonewho's I'm on the board of the Writers
Guild. Yes, one of theproblems is people are making less money because
the production schedules are so drawn out, because the streamers don't really care when
they get stuff, and they canjust give you notes forever or rather not
have. Yeah, these a lotof episodes, Yeah, they want to
have very few episodes, a lotof titles. Yeah, exactly, they

(50:57):
want more icons on the screen.They don't want more episodes those icons,
and that is like really putting alot of pressure on you know, writers
on like staff writers and people likethat, who used to get twenty six
episodes a year and now they getsix. It's a real problem. But
also, I'm sorry leftian episode we'retalking about right now. I mean,
I'd be happy to make it oneif there's anybody wants, if Netflix wants

(51:17):
to pay me to make it.Otherwise have to do it on the podcasts.
Also, don't viewers want if youlike a show, don't you want
more episodes? Yes, I meanyou should keep the customer satisfied. I
think, no matter what the newparadigm is, yeah, keeping the customer
satisfied seems like a good idea.I agree. And I think one of
the big problems that this is justme armchair ceo, right, But I

(51:40):
think it's weird that all of thestreamers now they just want you we just
want one or two seasons, sixepisodes a season, right, and we
want more icons. But hold ona second, the most valuable shows,
what are they friends, Seinfeld.Everybody loves Raymond, Please don't. Everybody
loves Sure Thank god, I thoughtyou were gonna avoid that. They want

(52:00):
shows, the most valuable show SouthPark, the shows that have two hundred
episodes because people can watch them forever. The Simpsons used to be this way.
Well, the rights to those showsare worth hundreds of millions of dollars
now, and so the companies thatown them are able to license for one
hundred millions of dollars. And Netflixknows they need a couple of those shows

(52:22):
to keep themselves afloat. They needSeinfeld. They need something that people are
going to watch over and over again. For me, I go back,
I watch reruns the Larry Sanders Show, one of my favorite shows, and
I just watch it constantly when Iwant, you know, there are people
watching. When you said about standup, you go once and you score
and the next time you bomb.The first thing that came to mind was

(52:43):
Hank's Night in the Sun episode fromIris Anderson episode where Hank Hank gets,
he scores, becomes a monster,yes, and then bombs because of his
hubrious, incredible show. What agreat, incredible, yeah, just so

(53:04):
relatable, understandable, and the moreI watch that show, the more I
realize, you know, the longerI've been in show business, I watched
that show again, and I'm like, they were right about that too.
That's exactly the way things are,like, It's so closely observed. And
the more that I'm a host oftelevision shows like I used to enjoy Arty
and Hang More Now when I watchI'm like, oh, Larry is the

(53:25):
funniest character to me, because Ido that, I do exactly that as
the host of a show. Isay, no, Artie, can you
go talk to them? I can'tanyway. But so so all these shows
are those are the ones that areworth all the money, the ones the
two hundred episodes. If you justmake two seasons six episodes each, you
never make the next Friends, youwill never make the Office. You train

(53:46):
the audience not to care. Yeahexactly. Well I'm not going to fall
in love with this. They're goingto cancel it. Yeah exactly. So
you create the very your everybody.This is I say this a lot,
but the whole problem with everything isshort term goals. Get it now,
screw later. Yeah. If weall have that attitude, we make sure
there is no later. Yep.Yep. And it's a big problem because

(54:07):
Netflix has so many shows they can'tmarket them effectively. Right, A lot
of their shows they don't market atall. They're just like, well,
hopefully Algernon will show it to people. If you are making two hundred different
shows six episodes each, well thenyou have a lot harder marketing problem because
if instead you make twenty shows sixhundred episodes each, well, now you
only have twenty shows that you haveto tell the public about that you have
to put billboards up, but youdon't have to tell them, hey,

(54:28):
we have show AB show C.So whatever you can, you know,
focus a little bit more. Sothis again just me just want to say.
I want to say to my friendsat Netflix, I do not agree.
Look, I think I think anythingthat you say about them, I
think half the people in that buildingare like, yeah, that's right,

(54:50):
you know. And they may tellyou that they have a lot of internal
conversations over there. But we're nothere to trash any particular streamer. I'm
not all of them. No,yeah, they're all in the same boat.
Frankly, they're all they're all doingit. Here's Phil and David's very
funny friend and beloved podcaster Jimmy Pardospeaking of stand up. Yeah, because

(55:13):
Jimmy, you know that's what hecomes out of and still and I go
see him stand up. You didstand up a couple of attempted at once.
What was that? I was nineteen, if I've heard that story,
what was that like a disaster?Because I was in Rockland County. That's
where I grew up for a goodpart of my life, the teen years.
And I was nineteen and I washome from college, I think my

(55:35):
second year, and they had thisamateur night in Nayak at a jazz club
and it was it was I wenton between a sax player and a trumpet
player. There were a few tablesup front who were watching, and the
bar is right behind them, andthey are not being quiet for anyone,
right, They're talking through the music, and they're certainly talking through some kid

(55:59):
who's getting up there. And I'mgetting flop sweat thinking about this evening,
just like you with the ground beef, I may have to go outside and
throw up thinking about this because itwas so listen. I was in the
school place. I was used topeople sitting down and watching, So to
have this like you were fighting thenoise. I'll never get over it.

(56:22):
I never did it again. Nowin my live show. Now I can
tell stories and I you know,people laugh and stuff. But it's quite
different. Stand up is brutal untilyou've made that, Yes, until you've
made it and they're paying money tosee you. Yeah, and even that
could be brutal. Even that couldbe what's your what was your worst night?

(56:43):
Oh, we don't have time forthis. I mean, it's because
this was so bad. And it'snot that the people upfront they were laughing.
It was fine, but I couldn'tget over that. I didn't have
seventy five percent of the room's attention. But to your but to your own
point, they weren't listening to anybody. It wasn't you. I still took

(57:04):
it personally. Yeah, But peoplesay, why do you take things personally?
I said, because they're happening tome that well, but that wasn't
happening to you. That was happeningin that setting. You're very nice.
Why weren't you there that night tocalm me down? I got news for
I was there. I was veryterrible. I was I was I had
the greatest conversation. I liked thatnight that some guy tried to amplify some
story. It was horrible. It'sreally good. That's another guy that I've

(57:25):
been tell me, tell me whatcomedy hers? Well, I guess I
mean the worst one is, I'vetold it many many times, is on
this show. That's true. Iwas doing the Great Lakes Naval Base just
north of Chicago, Illinois, GreatLakes Naval Base. I had done it
before and it went very very well, and I had done it as the
It was a two man show,and the first time I was there,

(57:45):
I did it as the opener.I was the first guy up who did
thirty minutes. Then the headliner wassupposed to do forty five or something.
And so it went well. Andthen I got a call, maybe a
little too soon, Hey, theywant you back. Yeah, but this
time we're gonna have you headline it. Wow. And I probably should not
have been headlining in any way,shape or form. So I get there

(58:06):
and the young kid that was openingwas a guy named Dan Flatley who has
since passed away, and he wasa funny kid. And so we're there
and the woman in charge, Cindy, said, Hey, we're so glad
you're back to me boy. Wehad a situation last week. The headliner
only did fourteen minutes. So youknow, we really need a good show
this week because we had a nightmarelast week. Like yeah, yeah,
no problem, fourteen Jesus way whathappened last week? So we then go

(58:30):
into the showroom and on stage isare all of the young sailors in their
cities, and they're dancing to LeeGreenwood's God Bless America or whatever that song's
called, boy, and they're alldoing a line dance with each other and
Dan flatlin I look at each otherlike oh boy. And so Dan goes
up and he kills I mean,Dan just destroyed, I mean just destroys.

(58:51):
He does great and so great whereit's like I don't know, I
yeah. And so then he goesto introduce me, you know whatever,
you know, a great pioneer,and various other credits, and this is,
by the way, nineteen eighty nineor ninety right, And so I'm
walking up the aisle on this oneof the young sailors said, you funny,
I were about to find outs AndI walk up and I am I

(59:15):
am killing, I mean out ofthe box, like I can't believe the
roars of laughter. I'm getting justthe roars how many people three hundred?
Okay, like and just maybe moreyeah, yeah, just in you know,
in their yehaul, Yeah, intheir recall and it's uh, they're
they're I mean, they are justlike almost deaf jam type laughter. They're

(59:35):
bananas. This is navy men.These are Navy. I think of you
as a deaf jam community, Thankyou very much. So they're going nuts.
Yeah, and I'm like, oh, right here we go. This
is yes. And then as ifsomebody was holding up a sign behind me
that said we've had enough, let'signore him. Now what they just hated
me? What? And to thisday, I don't know what I did
or say said, no clue,did you make an anti navy joke?

(01:00:00):
So what happened? I don't.I don't know, literally no idea.
To this day, I don't know. But they just they turned on me.
But you have to if this isa big moment in your life,
right because you're still telling this storyyears later, Yes, you have to
have analyzed this and gone through theact to align yes to a joke.

(01:00:21):
Nope, none of it makes senseto me. You don't even remember the
joke. They stopped laughing on notno, maybe I remembered then, okay,
but I just I remember that.They also then got hostile and they
were telling me to leave, likeand so they're like, you know,
go and yelling at me. AndI look at my watch and I'm not
kidding. I'm at like nine minutes. Oh like it It wasn't a lot,

(01:00:43):
and I thought, like I wasI'm close. No I'm not.
I'm at nine minutes. Oh mygod, I've got to go to forty
five. And I'm like doing it. But all I really want to do
now is do more than the headlinerthe week before, so that I'm not
the story. I just want todo fifteen minutes so that fourteen is still
the the low bar. So Iget so I'm bombing, I'm still talking.
I'm getting nothing, nothing and sweatingand scared and it kind of scared,

(01:01:09):
like what Jesus, what how doI get out of this? You
know? How do I save this? How do I just got off stage?
So ironically, this was your VietnamThis was yeahs to me. Uh,
it was my Paul Harkestl moment.So I I see my watch,
I'm at fifteen minutes and I said, all right, well, I'm gonna
tell you guys one more thing,and then go as some guy I'm not
kidding. He goes, uh uh, don't even tell us that, Just

(01:01:30):
go oh Jesus. And another guystands up and said, are we allowed
to swear on this Can you justwear on this program? Yes. Another
guy stands up and says, hey, leave alone. I think he's pretty
funny, looks around, has nosupport. He goes, not that fucking
funny. Oh, sits down andI'm like, oh god, So I
tell by I tell my last joke, which gets nothing. And I said,

(01:01:51):
well that's it for me. Ifyou see a dick, suck it.
And I walk off the stage andCindy has my coat in one hand
and my check in the other,and she said, get your car.
They will kill you. And Iwas like, I go, oh man,
that was rough. She goes,get in your car, they will
kill you. I'm like, okay, So I grab my coat and my
and my check and I run mycar. Not like you killed. That's

(01:02:14):
in comedy clubs. That not likethey're gonna going to murder you and they're
gonna bury you here on the navalbase. And no one would ever know
they're gonna push your car into thelake. So I start running to my
car and they start chasing me inmy car. What So I've got all
these sailors chasing me to my carand I'm and I'm running like you,
I can't believe this is happening.In a panic, and I get to

(01:02:35):
my car and this is before automaticlocks, and uh, at least at
my pay grade. And I alwayssay that, you know that scene in
horror movies where the guy tries toopen up the door and he can't,
and you go, well, thatwould never happen. It happens you don't
know how to open up a door. I'm like literally scratching the paint trying
to get my key in and uh. And I finally get the key in
and then take off. And thenthe report bag goes, well, you
know, of course what happened lastnight. I don't know, but man,

(01:02:59):
they hated me. Okay, that'sthat. That is the worst.
That well, that that is ahorror story. Yes, but obviously you
had to have said something to turnthat, of course, but I can't
remember what knows what it was.Now it would be on YouTube and we
could break it down. Yes,probably before that. I mean, yes,

(01:03:19):
this was you know somebody would happen. But you do know, you
do know your act enough to knowthe area maybe, And I don't really
I don't remember nineteen nineties act enough, you know, to go back and
look and see what it was.I think, honestly, I just think
I was. I don't think Iwas funny enough yet it was, but
I wasn't even a year into comedy. You're killing it right for nine nine

(01:03:43):
minutes nine minutes, but no audienceshifts in a second the way you're describing
it without you saying, you know, a Rachel slur well, which is
never going to happen. I meanI would never say that. I mean
never, I would never put themdown because again I'm in a Yeah,
I'm in their house. I getit. I just never heard a story.
I think they just I just Ithink I just wasn't funny enough to
carry it. And then they justgot tired of me and just and did

(01:04:08):
that event, which could sounds absolutelytraumatic, Yes, have an a lasting
impact on you. It did.For a little while. It made me
scared to go on stage. Iwas a little skittish, and again I
was fairly new in the you know, not even a maybe a year and
year and a half at the most. But luckily the next weekend I had
a gig and I got back onstage, and that it probably went okay

(01:04:29):
and then probably worked my way backinto you know, being comfortable. But
uh, it certainly did. Yeah, I've never heard a story like that.
Up next, a real comedians,comedian and a professor of comedy,
the wonderfully witty Wayne Fetterman. Whowere your favorite? But when you're researching
your book History of Stand Up fromMark Twain to Dave Chappelle, From Mark

(01:04:51):
Twain to Dave Chappelle, obviously you'reyou're doing your deep dive research. Who
was your your favorite person to learnabout the stuff you didn't know? Oh?
Okay, there was a couple.Yeah, this is one was a
guy named Wally Bogue. Never heardof him. Yeah, he worked,

(01:05:11):
He was a nightclub comic. Heworked in in He did a couple of
Sullivan's. Worked in England a littlebit, would do kind of balloon stuff
fifties and sixties, around forties forties, maybe even late thirties, forties.
But then he got this incredible gigat Disneyland where he would do at the
like the wild like this West show. Okay, the saloon show they would

(01:05:36):
do, Yeah, I can't thinkof it right now. And he would
do this three times, five timesa day, do this act, same
act that he had perfected in thesenightclubs. That's not Steve Martin. That's
what it is, Steve Martin,guy that Steve Martin sees as a kid.
I was like, oh, thisis a job, this is a

(01:05:56):
life, and and it was tothe end, to right the end when
he died. That was Steve Martin'sidel. Wow. Yeah, So I
was like really into him, andwhat was he funny? Hilarious? Wow,
hilarious. How do we see anyof that? You can see the
whole thing, because why Wonderful Worldof Disney, I think is the name
of the show. I remember that. I watched every Sunday film of him

(01:06:20):
doing his act. That's on YouTube. Yeah, you can see it.
Wally Wally Bogue bo a g.We're watching this, honestly. And also
one of the first comedians to sellmerch in the forties. He would sell
balloon packets after the show, waybefore the eyeballs and all of this stuff.

(01:06:41):
Something you're something called a bowl balloon, a little toy balloon that will
name you to tell people's personality justby the way they blow it up.
Let me show you how it works. You see the average a normal person
would blow balloon something like that.That's the average of normal type. And
then we have the straightforward type daysome people are little backwards and live naturally.

(01:07:02):
The backward person they oh, I'vegot talent. Then we have the
shatter brain. Their mind jumps arounda bit. They're balloon. We'll do
the same thing. I think wehave a little income tax trouble at this

(01:07:24):
point in the show. Pause theshow by two books, I will tell
you you will fig your life betterby History of Stand Up by Wayne Fetterman,
but also by Born Standing Up bySteve Martin. I think those might
be my two favorite comedy related books. Do you do an audio version of
History of Stand Up? Yes,but it's not out yet. It's not

(01:07:45):
out yet. Hopefully when does thisdrop? This is this is just for
us. This is a test episode. We don't even have recording. I
don't even wait. We really likeyou. Wait, we're not sure anyone
else. It depends how that nationalcommercial does Love it market test episode.
I love it. I love it. They turned off it they heard cheesecake

(01:08:09):
factory. So so yeah, sothat was definitely. That was definitely somebody
I was very much surprise. Theother one I'm going to say is Elsie
Janice. Who's that. Elsie Janiewas an impressionist female impression And at the
time, this is before, it'snot l C. It's Elsie correct,

(01:08:30):
It's not like a yeah, likea law firm, like yeah, yeah.
So Elsie Janie she was. Shedid, she acted, but her
main thing was she could do impressions, and she could do impressions of guys.
She would do Will Rogers, shewould do all you know. So
she she does these impressions. InWorld War One nineteen seventeen, is the
first American to go overseas and entertainthe trust oh twenty three hope, pre

(01:08:55):
hope, pre USO. No suchthing as the USO back then. And
she gets on the back of atruck and does their impressions and then does
sing alongs with the things. WorldWar one, World War one great.
And she was on the Civil War. Nobody's going around, well, there
was, I think there was someguys in the Civil war that entertained the
truth, but they were on whichside. I think it might have been

(01:09:16):
the redneck Redneck Tour. Yeah,their idea entertainment was different than ours today.
Yes. Hey, by the way, black face started in the north,
just you know, did not startin the South, started in New
York. Your city can tell youwill your city out here? Well,
now I hate New York. Soso get back to how you played Wayne

(01:09:41):
Fetterman on the X Files. Well, I just want to give Elsie Janie
her her do her do. Sothose are two and by the way,
visit these are and these are alsoprofiles and name dropping. David comes up
with right right, right, youknow Axel wrote coming up with El and
Wally Bogue. Okay, so sobasically I had met this was I had

(01:10:11):
played Larry Sanders brother on Sam Stanstan Stan Sanders. Can we cut that
the Sam mistake up? That washumiliating? Yeah, well no, I
think it was only one episode sowe could cut the whole character. Hours
you watched course, of course,so I like that I would be that
upset about it. So so sobecause of that, I start playing basketball

(01:10:42):
with Gary and it's you know,one of the great whatever It's one of
the great gifts that's ever happened.One of the guys there is the company.
He knows me from stand up,so he has he's writing this episode
of the X Files, and thisis just the stupidest thing. He says,

(01:11:03):
I think there might be a characterfor you that I you know,
because I like your stand up.Can I send it to you? And
he faxed it to me. Hefaxed me the episode and and in it
he said, he goes right now, the name says Wayne Fatterman, just
because I wanted your rhythm for thischaracter. But we'll obviously change it if

(01:11:25):
you decide, if you say yesto this, okay, so this is
like the cheesecake factory thing. Iwas like, yes, it's not even
why. I know. I don'twant to be on the XI I have
like doing here, so so Iof course say yes. And then we
kept talking about it and he wasI was like, you know, you

(01:11:45):
can keep that name because it wasabout a TV show inside a TV show,
so it was already met as theylike to say yes. So I
was like, just why don't youjust keep the name? I think it's
crazy, and he was like,I don't know. Let me think about
it, and then they did.Yeah, so that's how I get to
play a character named Wayne Fetterman onThe X Files. Not Wayne because he's

(01:12:06):
a big producer. Oh, I'mjust the character was a big producer,
yes, and you are. Ifeel the company was visionary. He knew
you were going to become the Emmywinning I think he was just ahead of
the current. The truth is outthere, Wayne Fetterman. I never thought

(01:12:30):
you do you play a character andbecome that character, play a guy with
better tasted food? Right right?Calton, idiot? This is you just
realized that now? Yeah? No, I never even thought about it.
Because how we have the end ofthat episode? Is this okay? Your
realization to write this down? Willyou? This is education is going to

(01:12:53):
make some model. I think let'send this episode with one of comedy's great
and most groundbreaking legends, Elaine May. One of the more memorable lines I
think in the history of comedy isI haven't eaten in three days because if
you should call, I don't wantmy mouth to be full. Yes,

(01:13:16):
Hello, hello, Arthur, thisis your mother. Do you remember me?
Mom? I was just going tocall you. Is that a funny
thing you know that I have myhand on there. You were supposed to
call me last Friday, Honey,I know. I just didn't have a
second and I could cut my throat. I sat by that phone all day

(01:13:40):
Friday. I was working an allday Friday night. I was in the
light all day Saturday and all daySunday. Mom and your father finally said
to me, philis eat something you'llthink I said, no, Harry,
no, I don't want my mouthto be full. When my son called
it, Did you come up withthat on the spot? Was that a

(01:14:03):
written? We never wrote anything downso that nobody believes that. But we
never wrote. I believe improvised it. I believe you because I know you
and you seem to be a genius. So that just popped in your head
one night in front of an audience. Well, yes, but before that,
Mike was twenty two or something likethat and his mother called during a

(01:14:25):
small birthday party. Yeah, spoketo it, and he hung up.
I said what she say and hesaid, she said, well, Mike,
twenty two years ago tonight, Ididn't have such an easy time of
it. And at that moment wedecided to do a sketch about mothers guy,
it's the most relatable thing. Yeah, we really almost everybody has the

(01:14:49):
same mother. Chinese Jewish of course, but but but really the Irish,
that's my mother, they say.And I had the same thing with Raymond
and you. That sketch subconsciously hadto influence me. It did. Even
though I was writing my mother,I knew what was funny about Jewish mothers

(01:15:13):
because of you, well, thatyou did it with Doris Roberts. It
is a you know, one ofyour sort of ensemble companies included Doris in
a New Leaf. And you hadworked with her before, Yes, I
had. She's really good. Butshe probably had a mother too. I'm
telling you she probably did. Everybody. It's everybody's mother, right, it's

(01:15:34):
everybody's mother. Does that sort ofguilt trip just in passing? I mean
really not seriously. And we wonderedwhy because we did this sketch for a
year without being able to find anend for it, and then finally we
said, what is this scene about. It can't be that your mother calls
you just to impose guilts. Andwe figured out that what it was is

(01:15:55):
that it kept you a child.Being guilty keeps you a child, no
matter how old you a mom,You don't lose your role, yes,
as the mom, no matter howold the kid is. Right, Well,
your job as a mom, Ithink is to keep the kid a
kid, right, I mean,I mean really, it's not so easy

(01:16:16):
to think of twenty two years agotonight. They didn't position. I mean,
some mothers would just say happy birthday, but they would not be American,
or Jewish or Irish or anybody wemet. Yes, right, that's
right. So you and Mike,you start doing the act. You do
it first in Chicago, do youhit the road? You to go right

(01:16:36):
to New York. We're part ofan improvisational group that letter became second City.
We were right well for a name, so we all we improvised,
but we genuinely improvised. We everybodyjust made it up as they went along
that we take suggestions from the audience, or they could bring in a sketch,
they could we could do it eitherway. We had no system.

(01:16:58):
So the teenagers in the car,let's to a little bit of that.
To me, your first date isfor like I mean, you go well
on your birth day? I mean, what is it I need to go
on? And because I mean,you know, each other, and then
when you know each other, thenyou know, like when you go on
your second date where we're asking me, alig, what do you do?

(01:17:19):
It's different because you know each other, but you lose a first day.
I know what you're gonna say.Can I tell you what you're going to
say? Because I know because Iheard it before? Do you know what
you're going to say? You're goingto say that I wouldn't respect you?
Right right, Listen, Jenny,I want to tell you right here and
now that I would respect you likecrazy. You can't even imagine how I

(01:17:48):
would respect you. I mean,I just want to make that point very
clear. I mean, are yousure you wouldn't just be grateful? No,
I'm talking about actually respect. Iwould respect you. Okay. So
there's something here that you can't youwon't get on audio, but if you

(01:18:11):
see it, there's a classic momentwhere you kiss and you've just taken a
puff of a cigarette and you holdit through the kiss and the kiss is
released and then you exhale the smoke. And it was such a funny,
great thing that Mike Thinkels used thebit again in the Graduate. Yes,
well, listen, it isn't likeI would be using it over and over

(01:18:32):
again myself. Yes, well hedid grab me after I inhaled, you
know, by accident. I think, so wow, that's I mean,
we really didn't. These were notthese they were true improvs, I mean.
And the reason they worked so wellwas the same reason the spy thing
and in the subway in the Yeahthey should work was we truly found the

(01:18:57):
same things funny, which is reallyimportant, right, and we enjoyed it.
Yeah. And we also we startedtaking suggestions from the audience to do
a first line and a last linein the style of any author, because
we had read everything, both ofus the same things people would give us
really hard authors, and they werethe easy ones. They were actually the

(01:19:18):
easiest ones to do. So wejust kept it as part of our action.
So you're saying smart has something todo with it. No, just
reading that's smart. I mean.But I think people who improvise really well
usually have a gift for writing.I think I could be wrong, but

(01:19:41):
I'm probably an improv is writing,and all of life is writing. People
don't realize we're writing right now.Well, yes, she said nervously,
that was good. Bit of nakedlunch is a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and
David Wilde. Theme song and musicby Brad Paisley, Produced by Will Sterling.

(01:20:03):
Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal, DavidWilde, and our consulting journalist is
Pamela Cellen. If you enjoyed theshow, share it with a friend.
But if you can't take my wordfor it, take Phil's and don't forget
to leave a good rating and reviewwe like five stars. Thanks for listening
to Naked Lunch, a Lucky Bastard'sproduction.