Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
David. Oh boy, this isa big one. We will eat foreign
run this episode. I ain't gonnaplaced on city, but I am going
to enjoy this episode. Ladies andgentlemen, Steve van Zen and his wife
(00:24):
Maureen van zent here they are.Let's build the beans to the fat,
food for thought, jokes on tap, talking with our mouthsful, having fun,
past the cake and humble pies,serving up slice love. Leave the
(00:49):
dressing on the side. It's nakedlunch clothing optional. All right, I
(01:19):
have to start uh with Steven.I have never told you something, and
I want to tell you uh now, because it's I owe you the biggest
thanks of any buddy in my career, I think, because the reason I
have any taste in music, whichhas gotten me a fairly long way,
(01:40):
is first and foremost you, andI can only explain it that you know
just age wise, I didn't havethe Beatles on ad Sullivan, but I
had the first few Jukes albums thatwere the transcendent moment of my life.
And the weird fact I realized,just like I was playing songs for my
son, he goes, and Iwas actually playing without Love one you didn't
(02:05):
write, but I believe the mostmost brilliantly arranged song in history Heretha Franklin
(02:27):
like non hit that in my mindis like bigger than freebirder, like a
rolling Stone. And my son goeslike he said, Dad, you played
it for me five hundred times inmy childhood. And the fact is that
through you I fell in love notonly with rock and roll, but with
soul music. And I can tracealmost everything good in my life to you
(02:49):
and Stevie Wonder, whose songs inthe Key of Life like that your the
Jukes records you did, and thenmen without Women and songs in the Key
of Life are the reason I've neverever said anything stupid enough to get me
in trouble, like unlike other peopleat Rolling Stone. You know, I've
always you really taught me. Ironically, you and Stevie Want two Stevie's You
(03:13):
and Stevie Wonder taught me my loveof black music, and just to I'll
just give you one more bit ofcredit that like because of you. And
then when my family went to FloridaMiami Beach, I would go to all
these old hotels and I was theweird like ten year old or twelve year
old or thirteen year old who wouldgo see the Coasters and the Drifters and
all these people that you had puton the Jukes record. So literally,
(03:37):
I just want to say thank youfor my life and career. Well,
what can I say? It wasmy pleasure. Imposing that on your son
is definitely child abuse. Well,and then it all came to play and
now I'll let let my partner getin. But the real sort of first
(04:00):
dream of my TV career. Youwon't remember this, probably because what happened
was when Joe Strummer died. Iwas doing my second Grammys and I went
to Ken Erlik, who I workedwith and who had brought me into the
Grammys, and said, we haveto do something for Joe's drummer. And
he goes, what you do forJoe Strummer? And I said, and
literally it was like him asking whatis your high school dream come true?
(04:24):
And I said, well, andI remembered being in Tenafly, New Jersey,
at Eric Aladort's house, playing nothingbut the River and playing London calling
and thinking the greatest things in mylife at that point, I think it
was a year before I met agirl was those records. And so I
said, we should do London Callingwith Bruce and Steven and it ended up
(04:49):
being with Dave Grohl, with ElvisCostello with Pete thank you for helping make
my TV career. One of myfavorite Grammy moments ever. This is the
show Buns and Call for the followit to house Noisy Clad, a battle
(05:13):
down to the dul come out ofas Suns and call that's uh and uh,
I'll tell you my last thing andthen I'm gonna shut up. Is
uh. I learned about success andwhat makes someone a boss that exact day,
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because at dress rehearsal, I'll neverforget it. I turned to Ken
after dress and I said, wow, that's nice. Bruce is sort of
letting Elvis Costello steal this a littlebit. He sort of you know,
stepping back and Elvis was really takingit in a dress rehearsal. And then
when the camera went on and theshow started, Bruce didn't give it up
at all. And you guys,it was a lesson in you know,
(06:02):
you know, you don't expect,you don't become the boss by only half
asking anything and giving it over toanyone. Well, I think that was
the last time that any rock androll showed up on the gravity kind of
(06:26):
pisses me off a little bit,to be honest, you know, I
mean, uh, without us,you know what I mean, what are
the Grammys without Rock and Roll?Right, I'd be remiss if I didn't
ask how your friend is doing house? His health a little better every day.
It's really uh, he's really gonnacome a long way, and you
(06:46):
know it's gonna be great, It'sgonna be fine. You know, we
would we would be a little bitobre cautious, you know. Uh,
we're just so used to him beingthe iron Man of of you know,
the last forty fifty years. Yeah, you know, never ever get sick
or you never you know, itwas his voice, you never know,
he's he's just a bit of asuperman. And so this, you know,
(07:06):
this was a little bit of alittle bit of a new thing for
us. Was he in pain?Was he playing in pain? Yeah?
Oh that's terrible. I hate tothink of that. And you know,
and you're going to give him creditbecause most people say that last show we
did was the best show they've everseen. Amazing. By the way,
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I heard that a lot, Iassumed he was absolutely feeling fine that night.
I guess maybe not. He's inpain the whole time, geez.
So so you know, at thispoint in the pain, the pain's gone
and he takes a little bit taso you know, we probably it was
so it was, you know,a close call as to whether Cancul arrested
this year. But we said,let's just be overly cautious here. We
(07:48):
want to make sure we come backbecause the rest of the tour had been
so so powerful and so intense.You know, we never had audiences react.
I mean, we've we've had thebest audience in the world right from
right from almost from day one.Yeah, a new level of enthusiasm this
tour all around the world, youknow, and I think it's because of
(08:09):
the focused theme that everybody's really respondingto. I really do believe that,
you know. So we wanted tomake sure we're gonna, you know,
we we're going to maintain that thatthat hurricane of power that we that we
have been communicating this the first sixmonths of this year. We wanted to
make sure we came back with thatthat same, that same intensity and we
and we will, we will,we will be that intense or more when
(08:33):
we come back and I've decided notto celebrate my birthday at all because I
was going for my birthday in December. I will not get older until well
in April. When you get here, we're gonna go. We're definitely going.
Yes, I was one of thepeople pissed off when Darling Love,
Your Darling Love record wasn't nominated,because that was my album of the Year.
I don't know if you've ever heard, Yes, that album is great.
(08:56):
Yeah, no, I've thought forsure I'm gonna win album with a
year it wasn't even nominated, butuh, it was the perfect ending to
the you know, Twenty Feet fromStardom, Uh, you know the film.
Yes, it was like it waslike the happy ending to that rather
you know, wonderful but depressing film. Yes, uh, you know.
And and here it is, man, you know, here comes the happy
(09:18):
ending. Man should come back withthis, you know, amazing album,
and yeah, I thought, forshure we're gonna win, but we never
even got nominated. You know,we way, But you guys have had
(09:56):
lots of albums that should have won. Well, yeah, one particular was
particularly notable. Yeah, but youknow, but we don't dwell on the
pass right, Well not only thatyou win in different ways. I mean,
you've had no one can say youhaven't had a fair amount of success
in varied fields. Well, you'reboth you and Phil are both Netflix.
(10:20):
You were you were the first Netflixstar. He really is currently a Netflix
star. But but Steve that Imean, lilla Hammer was huge in their
in their whole building of the ofthe platform. Yeah. Yeah, well
not not only was it first,but it also set the template for what
they did internationally. That's right.You know, no one had No one
(10:43):
had really done an international network.Yeah, you know, HBO and a
couple of people were franchising, butnot in a not in a way where
the content with available worldwide, youknow, I mean it would be local
content per France. Yeah. Netflixcame up with the concept of let's have
(11:03):
a local show and then we'll bringour international content to that territory, so
everybody in every country gets everybody else'scontent, which was a completely unique idea.
And it works. Oh yeah,it worked a big, big time.
I mean it was amazing, yeahto see it. So the reason
(11:24):
why they started in Norway with thatwas their first international territory. Yes,
because we had the Lillehammer show alreadyas a local hit in Norway, you
know, so they figured, youknow, let's let's use that as the
first at the first one, andthen they opened up Netflix Norway and then
went from there. I didn't Ididn't know Norway was the first, but
that that's kind of amazing. Andactually reading we call it the Good Book
(11:48):
in my home. Yeah, unrequiredinfatuations. It was great to know that
there are scoundrels in show business everywherethat you even even if you go to
Norway, you can find uh youknow, uh dirt bags. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, there's no shortageof scumbags in the world. That's the
(12:11):
name of my next book. Andspeaking, you know, because Phil does
a food and travel show, Ishould say, uh, Maureen has given
me the some I don't know ifyou remember this. You gave me the
best travel advice ever when I wasgoing to London once for I won't say
where, but where to stay.And I'm I wonder if it's travel like
that. You've you've both let LIFsof a lot of travel. Uh what
(12:31):
have you learned about travel that Phil, now that he's a travel icon,
can take advantage of what if Ilearned, don't be the ugly American.
Yeah, listen, just nice peopleshould nice people should travel and export nice
exactly. And I mean, there'sit's just such an incredible world out there,
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and you know, especially when yougo to Europe that the truly you
feel like you're in the middle ofart when you're in Rome and Italy,
all over the place in Paris.So I think the best thing is to
appreciate that. Yeah, the beautythat sits around you, the old and
new beauty, but mostly the oldbeauty is what I would appreciate. Do
you guys have a favorite place inthe world that you travel? My favorite
(13:20):
place is London, but that's almostlike a second home in a way.
Italy is fantastic. Yes, He'sprobably a lot more places than I have,
but I mean more and more.You did the First River Tour when
we did every country, you know, yes, I like them all,
to be honest, I really do. I see something interesting in every single
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country. I do too. Ilove it. I love it. But
I think the one thing we learnedyou kind of adapt to the rhythm.
There's a different rhythm I could basicallygeneralize throughout Europe. Really, you know
(14:01):
what I mean? We tend toyou know, again generalizing and you know,
realizing that Europe is you know whatever, fifteen twenty different countries whatever it
is. But and they used tohave their own unique culture. But there
is some things in common that aredifferent than America, you know, in
terms of the rhythm of life,you know. Yeah, and it's beautiful.
(14:26):
Generally speaking. We kind of liveto work, you know, I
mean we you know, we wewe're very well workaholics in America pretty much,
you know, and over there theywork to live, you know,
they take time for quality of life. And you know, at first it's
a little uh, you know,I was working in Norway. It was
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a little bit of you know,we're not getting enough done here, you
know, culture shock. But howabout the first time you're in Europe and
you go to buy something and thestore is closed. What do you mean
it's closed? Yah, it's gonnabe closed for two hours. What do
you mean don't you just want tomake any money? And then now they
stay open a little later, theytake their siesta and they enjoy the day,
(15:11):
which was a novel concept to mefirst time going over and all Americans
really yeah, all Americans, Imean, you know, you know,
you get down south you get outwith you know, yeah, it comes
down a little bit in America,but really over there, man, it's
a whole different it's a whole differentmindset, you know, and I really
I really learned from it. Youknow. Was the River Tour the first
(15:35):
time that you were exposed to manydifferent countries? Yeah, we did a
short little tour were Born to Runwhere we did three city, four shows
and three Savy did London, Amsterdamand Stockholm and then back to London.
Okay, from which is that ratherinfamous video of h of us at the
(15:56):
Hammersmith Odian. I know that video. It's great, which nobody to this
day knows why anybody recorded that andwhy that is. I mean, it's
one of the great mysteries of theworld. I'm glad it does, you
know. It's just one of thosebizarre moments that we're really glad got captured.
Yes, but that was you know, that was that was a quick
(16:19):
trip, and that was that wastotally shocking, you know, the first
time you go to Europe, it'sshocking. You know, we were there.
I mean, you you could therewas only one place to get a
Hamburger and you're but would you trythe other foods. Uh, well no,
you see, you know you don'twant to try the other food you
know when you first go over there, you know, well you also you're
(16:41):
young, what are you're You're likein your twenties going over there, right,
you know, no, no thanks, you know in Italy, which
we didn't we didn't get to Italyat that time. But but you know,
they you know, the hard rockthe first hard rock cafe had just
opened. Yeah, and and therewas a line around the block the minute
it opened. You know, itwas the only place you can get a
(17:04):
hamburger. And there were no therewas no McDonald's yet, you know,
and you know, so so thenext trip, the river trip, was
more getting into the cultures now,and you know, so slowly you start
to realize, yeah, let's let'sadapt a little bit, you know,
let's not you know, be likeMaury, you know, the ugly American
here, you know, I mean, the silly things when you first go
(17:26):
there, you know, like likeeven England. You know, the first
time I asked for iced tea,they look at you like, you know
what, there's no ice. Iknow, but when you got to when
you got to Italy, I meanyou're Italian and now you're having it from
the source. You had to fallin love. It was it was shocking.
(17:47):
It was shocking because you realize you'venever had Italian that's right, that's
right, that's right, you onlyhad Italian American, right, But even
just the simplest bowl of pasta withsauce, it blows your mind. Right,
you have those food carts on thestreet. You've been having the greatest
Italian restaurant here. And that thatwas an awakening for sure. Literally literally,
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I mean we we've stopped, youknow, on a highway, like
you know, like yeah, youknow the roadside, you know, the
roadside gas station food better than anyaccountan. There's a whole portetta in the
case behind the counter at the gasstation. But we fresh. That's why
it was illegal to not have freshpasta. There was no such thing as
store bought faster pasta until recently,and and promisan cheese was was was illegal
(18:36):
because of the way it was madeup until you know less, I don't
know, twenty years or twenty thirtyyears. So the promiseanches you grew up
with, no no relationship, what'sup? Did a real thing? Right,
The powdered stuff that smells like feet. The first time you taste these
things. Oh my god, it'swell, Steve, it's funny. You're
(19:03):
irishman. Co star Ray Romano.Uh. Phil's whole Netflix show Somebody Feed
Phil is sort of based on andeverybody Loves Raymond? Where can you tell
a story? You forced Ray Ramanuto go to Italy. He didn't want
to go, And then and andhe didn't want to go. He didn't
well, he was afraid to fly. He wasn't he said, I'm not
(19:23):
really interested in different And and thenI realized right there, I realized,
right there we got to do thatepisode. And then what I you know,
I and I wrote the episode abouta guy who doesn't want to go
and then gets it, gets woke, you know, and then he The
(19:44):
best part of that was I sawit happen to him, the person he's
like, Phil, have you hadGelatto? Yeah? And and and then
that I said, Wow, thatthere's no greater turn on than turning people
onto stuff you like, right,whether it be music or food or art
culture whatever, it is a book, and so I thought, what if
(20:08):
I could do this for other people? So now, however, many years
later. That's what I do.They can't go wrong recommending Italy. That's
right. By the way, youwere this. No one's going to see
this visually, so please eat.You could be you could be animals.
(20:29):
It's okay, I'm going to bean animal, right. Yeah, we
just got our sandwiches, so Idon't want to eat alone. It's called
like, is it called something atlunch? Naked lunch? Naked lunch?
You want to be naked, soyou so you tell people people that you're
having lunch to people who are naked. Naked right right, uh, yeah,
(20:51):
if you like. But we nakedrefers to the conversation. Yes,
I mean you're looking at us becausewe're on zoom right now. But can
you can you imagine the ratings ifDavid and I were naked? The absolute
(21:21):
truth is, and this is thisconnects to your career, Stephen. The
reason his name naked Lunch is notit's sort of a borrowing it from William
Burrows from the book. But thetruth is I wasn't a big William Burrows
fan, but I listened to alot of Steely dan who you know,
they got their name from William Burrowsand Naked lunch. So it's really and
it strikes me this is I don'teven know if you know this about Stephen's
(21:44):
career Steely Dan famously or too famouslyto me, like before they became Steely
Dan, We're out on the roadwith Jay and the Americans, like an
apprenticeship in the oldie circuit. Fora brief period Stephen was did his apprenticeship.
And maybe I'm wrong with the names, but I remember the dovels.
It might have been Uh, alittle Anthony, maybe a little bit uh
(22:08):
Dion the greatest uh of all time. And and I think that's the similarity
between sort of our podcast if youlisten to it, and your career,
your respect for your elders, andthe way you have like always stood up
for artists. I am literally holdingbecause I took it from my car,
(22:30):
the Gary Us Bonds records you andBruce did when you sort of brought him
back. It's it's I didn't.I didn't take it out of my car
because I brought it with me.It's been in my car the whole time.
Uh. Literally. You have asong that you wrote called Daddy's Come
Home, which I think I firstheard as a kid going through my parents'
divorce, and now I'm an olddad and I'm still with my wife.
(22:53):
But that song has been bringing meto tears for only a few decades.
Now. The idea was, youknow, most of those guys, most
(23:26):
of the pioneers, you got putout the pastor in the prime of their
lives. And I talked about thisin my book. You know, the
British invasion had the unintended consequence ofputting all of those guys out of work
tire, you know, every pioneer, and only a few really, only
(23:52):
a few groups survived. You know, only the Beach Boys from the Four
Seasons and soul music really survived theBritish invasion. And you know, I
did that oldie circuit like you weresaying, you know, in seventy three
or so, it was a bigoldies what they called oldies insert, you
(24:15):
know, resurgence. You know therewas the film American Graffiti, Well,
there was American Effiti, there wasthe other the movie of the the Richard
Nader Maises Great Garden Show with allof the oldie acts on it. All
right, right, they put thatout in the theaters briefly, I remember
(24:36):
now and then and then you know, you know happy Days, you know,
on TV. I think what Isay, there was a real,
real, suddenly a resurgence of allthe fifties and early sixties. And I
happened to do that through that circuitat that time, you know, meeting
all my heroes and really educating myselfabout that part of the of the of
(24:59):
the history that I missed. Ionly missed the first decade of rock and
roll history. So you know,it was nice to really be confronted with
that, you know, really reallyget into that. And uh. And
they were all pissed off. Theywere all depressed. They were all you
know, very pissed off. Imean they're in the thirties, early forties
and you know, you had twohits when when when when the Beatles came
(25:23):
you played It's the rest of yourlife. And so we were so I
always felt guilty about that, youknow, I always felt bad about that.
And as soon as I got inthe recording studio, the first thing
I did, I brought you know, Ronnie Spector out out of out of
retirement, and Lee Dorsey and thenyou know, five Satins and Drifters and
(25:44):
coasters and uh. And Gary respondedlater and then uh and then early in
love, you know, just tojust to let people know that they're still
great and and and you know,people should know about them, you know,
people should know that they If notfor them, then they would be
no us, you know, absolutely. I just felt that was an obligation
(26:06):
of ours to remind people of wherewe came from. Huh yeah, And
just to show you how that hasan impact over the years, it really
is. I can directly trace allof my interest in that music to you.
There are people like Chuck Jackson whoyou would mention and I would like
go out and realize, oh,Chuck Jackson is one of the greatest singers
(26:26):
I've ever heard, and but I'dnever have heard his stuff if not for
you. And then you know,hopefully in my work over the years,
I've tried to honor some of that. But that's very similar to what with
this podcast sort of started with Philand I. Phil would invite me to
lunch with Carl Reiner because he wouldalways pick the legends who people you know,
(26:47):
and they would have lunch with usand tell their stories because their stories
are not told enough. You know, you can't hear enough of these legends
and like what you tried, andyou made this great record with Darlene Love.
But it's true in so many,so many records I read in the
book. I was heartbroken at onepoint thinking you had proposed doing a whole
label of and giving all these artistsa shot. I think you discussed that
(27:11):
with Sony and Bruce or Columbia andBruce at some point. The funny thing
is, I realized even there you'vedone. You know, you're more than
your part with the radio station,because in that radio station, not only
are you promoting new artists who aremaking rock and roll, but also putting
them in the context where they getheard next to the absolute legends that also
(27:34):
don't get heard much. That's thewhole point. The whole point was to
connect those thoughts, you know,and we go back to nineteen fifty one,
you know, which is you know, it's now seventy years, seventy
years plus of the rock and rollhistory, and it's amazing that it still
(27:56):
resonates, you know, very much. So I mean, if you go
seventy years before that, you know, you know, not a whole lot
is happening, you know, fromthe eighteen you know, maybe little Stephen
Foster or you know, little Tchaikowsky. Yeah, yeah, but it was
(28:17):
saying, I mean, it's amazingwhere you can you know, little Richard
record comes on or you know,you know whatever some might teens, you
know, fifty four or fifty fivewhatever is, and it sounds it sounds
brand new. It's amazing. Youknow, well, who were who were
going to learn from? If notfrom those who came before us. I'll
(28:41):
never understand kids who don't have nointerest in anything from before they were born,
or even from two years ago.Yeah, that seems to be uniquely
this generation or you know, thelast couple of generations. Mareen actually had
a had a very good podcast fora while talking about that very thing.
We were called generation gap. Yeah. The guy that was co hosting with
(29:03):
me was might a bit younger thanme, but we happened to have so
much in common that it kind ofdidn't work because we weren't disagreeing on things.
That's funny on it. And Imean even in all the things they
do, like I tught an actingclass and some of the students don't know
who Marlon Brando. Yeah, youknow, even if I teach dance,
(29:25):
and you know, dance usually prettygood about the history, but sometimes they
don't know who these Pavlova was,And I'm thinking, how could you not
know the people that lay the groundwork? And they would like it if they
just gave it a chance. Butthere's so much information coming at them that's
so available to them, literally intheir pocket, that they don't have time
(29:47):
for the past. Yeah, butyeah, well there's something there's something wrong
with the system, you know,the system not adapting. You know.
That's what the whole education thing I'mdoing is all about. It's all about
that very thing where our brains,you know, the technology has gotten ahead
(30:12):
of our brains at this point,you know, you know, and not
necessarily in a way that you can'tabsorb what's going on in the presence,
in that present moment, although that'sall you know, you're being immundated with
way too much stuff. But itdoesn't leave room for curiosity about the past,
(30:37):
you know, you know what Imean, You don't have you don't
have the capacity to you know,to deal with it or and nothing in
the education system is compelling enough tomake you interested in that. And that's
what that's what we're all about,you know what I mean? We we're
like, who do you like?You know right now, who's your favorite
(30:59):
artist? And you know when theysay, you know whatever, Beyonce,
you know, and we're like,well, well, you know, Beyonce
comes from this room and named mereadA Franklin you know that, right,
you know they're like really, well, yeah, you know, and she
comes from Detroit. You know aboutDetroit? No where, where's that?
Well, Detroit, Toba here andthis is what Detroit does. And she
comes from the Gospel church. Youknow about that? Well, no,
(31:22):
what's that? You know? Youknow what she did? She was involved
with civil rights? You know aboutthat? No, no, tell me
more, tell me more. Soyou know, as you're on their turf,
you know what I mean, becauseyou know, Beyonce the key to
all of this other information, youknow, And we make sure that they
start to learn where things come from. And if you put it in there,
(31:45):
in there, you know, ontheir turf, in their comfort zone,
right, you know, they're interested, you know, and suddenly you
know they're they're learning things without realizingthey're learning things, you know. So
that that's what our whole education thinksabout that. Pete Rock, you know,
yes, but say that again teachrock dot Org. Great. You
(32:17):
obviously, like in all things youdo, you walk the walk, and
I remember, like on the lasttour, like teachers are always welcome at
your shows. And but I wonder, is is there anything people can do
to because I know you've had alot of success getting into curriculums, just
like you had a lot of successin radio. But is there anything people
can do to support because obviously musiceducation is a big issue to me,
(32:38):
and I personally cannot believe the shortsightednessof politicians and not realizing because I mean
I did shows at the White Houseduring the Clinton administration for you know,
save the music and and and everythingI know says the the benefits go so
beyond just knowing music that they're youknow, their benefit if it's if you
(33:00):
study music at all, your mathis going to be better, You're everything,
you're going to be better. Well, there's all, there's all that
you know, you know, wewe we know that that that that's the
irony of the adult child left behindlegislation canceling all the arts classes in America.
Okay, because all statificate show ofthe kid the kid, uh you
(33:22):
know us as music class they dobetter in math and science. Absolutely right.
So it was quite ironic and quiteyou know, typically stupid of our
politicians to do that, but youknow, we we we we try to
find a way, you know,rather than just music period. We decided
(33:44):
let's do music history. This way, we can have all the students participate,
and we can do a cross curricularyou know, music class, English
class, social studies, you know, and it's worked one nice and we
have sixty thousand teachers right now.Great, uh, you know, and
they're really it's transforming the whole youknow, the whole education system because we
(34:08):
we need to do that. Weneed to adapt to this generation. You
know, they're smarter than us.Let's face it, they're faster than us.
You can't tell them learn this nowand someday you use it. You
know, they're like, what areyou kidding me? I got my device
right here, I got all theanswers right here. Yeah, twenty seconds,
(34:30):
right, but I always yeah,go ahead. No, it's gotta
give them a reason to be there, that's right. We gotta gotta what
I call teaching the present tense,give them something they can use now.
But there's only with with these kids, you know, I mean, there's
only right now. But if butif right now uh is enriched by the
(34:52):
past and you can connects, they'llpay you know, if you if you
can prove to them that there's areason why they're learning this, you know
what I mean, you know you'regonna have a good reason. Well,
your your Beyonce example is so perfect. Your Beyonce example is so perfect to
me because I remember going on someradio station and having someone calling all angry
(35:13):
about Beyonce being I think one yearshe had in a rock and roll category,
she had a nomination for a track, and and basically I got the
sense that the person was furious thata black artist was in the rock and
roll category, to which I hadto explain, you realize where this music
came from, right you do?You know you heard about Chuck Berry or
you heard about you know, anyany of the other amazing artists who made
(35:37):
this happen. You know, yeah, that well, that was part of
what we made sure. You know, part of our lesson plans was guess
what, kids, rock and rollwas half invented by blacks, half in
vetted by white a big contribution bylatinos, you know, a big contribution
(35:58):
by women, you know, andwe make sure that people understand that.
You know, if you're a blackkid, it's okay to pick up a
guitar. Okay, you're not likeyou know, you're not violating some you
know, some kind of tribal youknow, ritual. You know, you're
not allowed to do that. Youcan only do hip hop, you know.
And of course the white kids didthe same thing. When white kids
(36:20):
got into hip hop, you know, that happened quite naturally. But black
kids getting into rock and roll,getting into blues, they didn't realize they
invented it. They invented I mean, come on, you know. And
so we wanted to make sure thatwas really upfront with the lesson plans.
Okay, you know, I feelme if you're a black kid, the
Latino kid, whatever you are.You know, Native American is a great,
(36:45):
great the great film Rumble you've seen, right, Yeah, I have
contribution to rock and roll, youknow, Jimmy Hendricks and Jesse Davis and
you know, Charlie Patton and everybodyelse. You know, you got you
got a a license, you know, you gotta you have every right in
the world to take that in asyour own, as part of your own
(37:07):
identity, you know. And thisis all news. This is news to
kids, This is this is thisis brand, this is revelations man,
you know. But the point,the point is if you can get that
message across in the streaming world,as much as it rips off artists,
at least kids like my son justwrote me during this lunch. He texted
(37:28):
me, Dad, what do youthink of lou Reid's The Bells album?
And like that album came out,like, you know, thirty years before
he was born. But because inthis once you get the passion for music
in this world, now you cango anywhere because it's all accessible or so
much of it is accessible on thephone. Well yeah, and such a
great way into the culture and tothe identity of people and the humanity of
(37:52):
people. It's what connects us all. We always we have this foundation that
supports the arts and schools. AndI always say, the people that think
the arts are disposable don't realize thatthey're the answer. Absolutely, it's not.
It's not it's not something that's extra, you know, an after school
(38:13):
thing, a luxury. No,it's a central, the essential part the
quality of life. And that's whywe make sure we don't. We don't
just separate. We don't separate artfrom the disciplines. You know, the
stem, the stem, you know, the connect you know, science,
technology, engineering and math is thebasics. So it's got to be steam
(38:37):
exactly we had in the middle,and we integrate the arts into science into
math. Right. Our math lessonis, you know, figure out figure
out the last Jackson Brown Tour?What costs? You know? Our science
lesson is, you know, gratefuldead. Have all of these speakers,
(38:57):
you know, how do they dothat? You know, you know we're
technology class. Uh, you know, we have you know, we we
we we connect, we connect things, you know. You know, Billy
Eilish has they synesthesian I can't Ican't say it. Billy Eilish has as
a as a as a condition youknow, has to do with you know,
(39:21):
uh, seeing things that you hear. So we have kids hearing music.
You know, we played Traikowsky,we played you know, run DMC
and and you know, and we'llplay uh the Ramones and and we'll have
kids, okay, draw what youwhat you think you're hearing? It's called
(39:45):
it's it's called synesthesia. And soyou know, we we just connect up.
We connect these stocks, you know, and that's what makes the you
know, the kids more comfortable,you know, because in the arts there
is no wrong in that's right.What were you like, that's the right
answers? Yeah, well, letme with with with all these passions in
(40:07):
your life and both of you,you know, dancing, Marian for you,
acting for you, but also Stephenacting music and producing and the obviously
the educ the sort of uh youknow, education stuff like when we only
have you today to talk to youbecause I realized because my wife bought tickets
uh for me to see the Eastthe Eas Street band in uh December for
(40:30):
my birthday, and when I realizedwe got the note saying it's not gonna
happen till April, I realized thatwas my reason to write Maureen and say,
hey, can we talk to you? But when your life is suddenly
your schedule has changed this radically,does it? Just do you both just
you know, redirect your passions toother things you can do. And also,
(40:51):
yeah, we appreciate you finding timefor us. Yeah, I mean
the answer is yes to some extent. I mean, you know, my
my expanded consciousness, you know,came from meeting Maureen. Actually I talk
(41:12):
about this in the book and Iand also they're doing a new documentary about
me. And you know, Ididn't. I grew very very narrow,
very narrow, you know, likelike a lot of kids today, you
know. And she's the one turnedme on too, you know, the
ballet world, the classical music world, the literature, just literature in general,
(41:36):
where a lot of some sometimes theballet world had had their roots in
literature or or some of the classicalpaintings, you know, you know,
you know, Impressionist paintings. Thatwhole world opened up for me with with
her, you know. So soyou know, I try to pass that
along, you know, in myown way, to the education system.
(41:59):
But it also it also expanded me, expanded my my kind of my you
know, the picture of what Iwhat it is I do. I mean,
it is day the best thing,most important thing either be done we
did together, which was the Rascalson Broadway. And we did we you
know, we we we uh youknow, I wrote and directed and produced
(42:22):
a Broadway show and I did notget to see it in New York,
but when they toured and came here, I got to see with the videos
and the presentation Mark Mark Brookman,right, is it? Uh uh?
And who I've you know I gotto talk to about the show because I
that was a dream come true forme, A Rascals. I never thought
I'd see the Rascals and I'm gladI went to when I could, because
(42:45):
it didn't see it seemed like whateverthe personalities in that band are, it's
hard to make it ever, Sae. We did. We did a film.
Yeah, we kind of invented anew art form. I thought we
were inventing a new art form thateverybody else would pick up on, which
nobody has yet, I'm surprised tosay. But we know. We not
(43:08):
only reunited them after after forty yearswhatever it was, which was a miracle,
but we filmed them you know,you know big you know, talking
heads, huge talking heads. Andwe did the Richard Rogers Theater where Hamilton
is now. Yeah, and wedid the first screen on Broadway. It's
(43:30):
like it was a hybrid Broadway show. You know, the entire back wall
was one big screen multimedia and yeah, and we re enacted scenes from their
past, you know, when theymet each other, when when they worked
with songwriters, when they worked inthe studios. So we had four actors
who we cast as as the Rascals, and they were great. They looked
(43:52):
like them. They really worked outso well, and it was just a
very very interesting combination of things alongwith them tell their story, right,
the story of the songs that you'rehearing. So they would so they would
play a song and we would andMark Rickman would have these fabulous basically transporting
people back to the sixties, youknow, visuals, and then Scott the
(44:16):
stage would go dark and right upin this huge you know, Eddie Brigatti
would you know, start telling theirstory and then we're occasionally we would throw
in scenes from their from their pastand uh and ironically or whatever the right
word is, you know, theyended up reliving this nightmare that broke them
(44:38):
up in the first place, andthey broke up again. Yeah, you
know it turns out that whatever Felixwas not a very nice guy. Yeah,
I got that sense. But Iwill say, speaking about like your
book took me in the most honestway I've ever seen in terms of guy
(45:00):
talking about what breaks up friendships andbands, and like you were in a
very loving way. You gave aslike because people I guess I never because
Men with That Women is one ofthe most important records in my life.
I never felt this way. ButI thought you were exploring why you left
the Eastreet Band and being so openabout it was probably really really helpful to
(45:25):
a lot of people in their career. And I, you know, and
and the fact that you know,Bruce still Bruce and Bob Dylan still wrote
the like nice comments blurbs for thebook. It didn't like you didn't burn
any bridges, but you're I guessit's in everything you do. You tend
to be very truthful. Yeah,you know you're gonna write a book,
(45:45):
you know, you know you're probablyonly going to write one, right,
you know. And and I didinclude some intimate conversations, which is why
the first two people I said thebook to what Bruce said by billin,
you know, I said, listen, I'm gonna I'm going to include some
really intimate conversations, and any objectionyou have, I take it right out
(46:09):
right, because I'm writing a booknow just to drop names or just a
you know, I will show howmany celebrities I've met in my life.
You know, I had a muchbigger purpose for this book, you know,
which I hope. I hope thebook will end up being useful as
as you suggested, for many formany reasons, I recommend it to everyone.
(46:31):
It's that good book about it's agreat book about life, which is
you know, and and a lifein the arts, yes, but also
like the journey of a life,because by the way I love a book.
I'm trying to think the phrase youuse or maybe you've used in interviews,
but you say there were like yousaid, there were seven years you
were walking the dog. Like Ithink it's really good for people to know
(46:52):
that even a career of a rockstar, of someone who you brought down
apartheid, closed Sons City, andstill you had seven years walking a dog,
maybe because you were able to endapartheid, but yes, I think
it's really helpful to put all thatout there. That was the point of
(47:13):
the whole second half of the book, you know. The first half of
the book was a you know,the local Jersey kid makes it to the
top of rock and roll, whichis a good story by itself, you
know, And I don't mean toyou know, in any way diminish that.
But the second half of the bookis to me more important, which
is what happens when your first dreamis over? You know, what happens
(47:37):
when what you've been working towards yourwhole life now ends, you know,
And I think that's going to happento everybody in life at some point.
You know, a lot of mostpeople, they're going to hit the wall
somewhere we can all relate. Yes, you know, the dream doesn't quite
work out at that job that wasyou know you aspired to or whatever,
(48:01):
you know, and the work ittakes to get the new one, all
right, and the work it takesto get the new one, well,
well it's just it's just, youknow, can you move forward, moving
forward without suicide? You know,without drugs, you know, a drugs,
becoming an alcoholic, you know,all of which I considered at the
(48:24):
time. You know, can youif you can just find yourself moving forward,
you'll, you know, you willfind a destiny. It's not done
with you again. Well, justas as an ultimate example of that,
I remember, I think I didthe first Rolling Stone interview with David Chase,
and I asked him about where theorigin of the show was, And
(48:45):
you tell the story in your book, which I think is I know it's
accurate that it was, you know, in part or inspired by your being
brilliantly funny at a rock and rollhall in Fame, induction of the rascals
of all people. So it allcomes full circle. But he also told
me we had a fanboy moment aboutyou in that interview. I'll never forget
because he said that the Sopranos,I think the phrase he told me was,
(49:07):
it's based on the back cover photoof the Men Without Women album.
That like he's seeing the guys linedup this sort of like gang the rock
and roll mobster, sort of gangvibe of the Men Without Women like band
photo. That's what the Sopranos isbased on. Wow, that's what he
told me. That's a big man. You never heard that you? Oh
(49:32):
well, I got one more DavidChase story to tell you years later when
he made Not Fade Away, which, by the way, right now in
the show, we're going to putit in in post. We're not going
to play it, but there's oneWe're gonna play a number of my favorite
songs throughout this just for a fewthirty seconds or so. But the Saint
Valentine's Day, which is also Ibelieve the original Not Fade Away. When
(49:54):
David Chase showed it to me,it was Saint Valentine's Day massacre or massa
Kray, whatever however you want topronounce it in that context. But so
he called me in to write theproduction notes for Not Fadeaway as as liner
notes. It was sort of likea rock version of production notes. But
I I will so I saw thatmovie twenty times. I might be the
(50:16):
only person besides David Chase who sawthat movie and you maybe twenty times.
But that song, So I heardthat is one of my favorite songs of
all time. And the fact thatyou've done, like I think it was
on Soul Fire, you did yourversion maybe I just we're gonna hear that
in the show. That is oneof my favorite songs of all time because
(50:37):
to me, it's like the greatestsong Bob Dylan never wrote. Kids Just
mess Secret Discretion will in apprecill me. I'm particularly proud of that song for
(51:07):
that reason. You know, it'sthe only time I think I really obviously
showed my Bob Vilain roots. Youknow, that's totally a Bob Dylan song,
and I know, you know,I he's such an important part of
my life in every way, butit's not always that obvious, you know.
(51:28):
In that case, you know,that's really that's really above villain song.
And I'm really proud of that one. Yeah, thank you well.
That to me, that and thatthing you do did it very well for
I got to give Tom Hanks somecredit on that movie. That worked as
a sixty song, you know,uh, that sounded like an actual hit.
But to me, those are mytwo favorite movie songs I think ever
(51:50):
written. It was it was fundoing that movie. We ended up a
choreographic the final the scene right well, anything they had to do with dance
I had to I worked on.And that that was a trip well that
(52:10):
they gotten to do. They hadno idea of any of the dances of
that time, and like you wehear of the twist, no, the
same historical out of context thing.But it was fun. It was just
there was such a such a greatatmosphere on that movie. It was a
lot of fun. And David wouldkeep changing the songs, you know,
and he'd Okay, you got todo the ending to this song, and
then I'd do it to that songand that No, no, I'm changing
(52:31):
the song, and he'd be sendingone hundred songs to me and we'd go
over stuff, and I think wekind of went back to the original one
right, But it was just itwas such a fun time working on that
movie for the two Since both ofyou were in the Sopranos. When you
are people stop you on the street. How often does Sopranos come up?
And has that ebbed and float oris it still a huge is it a
(52:52):
reference point for everybody still? It'scoming up more often now. I think
a lot of younger people are startingto be turned onto it. And it's
strange that they don't recognize me asmuch as him. Obviously I don't have
the enormous hair, and but knowwhere you are. You know they you
(53:16):
look more similar than I than Idid. You guys both were you both
attracted to acting when you were kids? Were you in the school plays?
I was in a lot of schoolplays. I was on Broadway when I
was a kid. You were Whatwere you in? I was in Gypsy?
(53:37):
Oh, come on, baby babyJune? Holy Cow? Who was
your Who was the Who was MamaRose? When you were in it?
The original? I was a littlelittle, tiny kid. You mean Ethel?
Yeah? Holy moly, I'm talkingabout Broadway Royal. Now you're speaking
Phillo's language. Well, I Istudied theater in school. Were you just
(54:00):
into music as a kid or wereyou in the interested in acting as a
kid too. I was probably moreobsessed with music than anything and dancing because
the two of those, you know, went together. But the thing is
I wasn't a singer, so mydream being on Broadway were very limited.
Later on, I was in Hairfor a little bit and Wow, I
(54:22):
was more of a dancer, sothat was probably my first dream. But
I really I saw Westside Story whenI was seven. My grandfather took me
yeah, and I saw Cheeta Rivera. I'm like, I want to do
that. And I saw the Sharksactually as I wanted to wow, but
I couldn't do it. But Iwasn't a singer, so I became a
dancer, So that was my inspiration. But music. I was always obsessed
(54:43):
with music. My grandmother would watch, you know, I had Slim and
I saw Elvis when I was maybeseven or eight, and I just always
always was in love with music ofevery type. And Steve, were you
acting at all as a kid?I did? There was school play,
you are too, uh, butnot really not not. It wasn't ever
(55:05):
really any ambition you know, ofmine. I thought about maybe getting into
it of the movie fan. Yeah, so I thought about, maybe I'll
try writing something or maybe end updirecting something. I could see that possibly,
but I never thought about acting.No, the attraction for me of
(55:25):
East Street Band and Bruce and youguys and your camaraderie. This is not
you're gonna go to a show andthey're gonna play the record, meaning you're
just gonna stand there and you're gonnahear a concert. You're gonna hear a
concert. No, you're gonna see. For me, it's always been a
theatrical experience, and the word theaterdoesn't come up much when I hear people
(55:51):
talking about the show, but Ihave a feeling that it's a big part
of what you do and do youI'm talking about this aspect of an East
Street show. How much of itis literally choreographed? How much of it,
Like we all know, there's rockand roll poses that go back to
the past that we're talking about,right to stuff that people do, you
(56:15):
know, great poses, even certainmoves in rock and roll. But there's
a theater to what you're doing.Well again, I talk about this a
little bit more detail in the book, but but but basically, what people
maybe maybe may not realize is everysinger is an actor, right, and
(56:35):
you're you're acting out the script.Yes, which is that particular song?
Yes? Okay, yes, thereright, yeah, and some singers are
not even particularly aware of that maybeyou know, yeah, But another word
for it is commitment. Sorry,another word it might be commitment. Well
it's a yeah, but a deeperunderstanding of where it's coming from were something.
(57:01):
I mean, you know the classicexample is you know, look at
Frank Sinatra doing uh, you know, order three one big one. Here
we is, Yes, that's whatit's right there right, olds it up
right there, right. But butto some extended rock and roll too,
(57:22):
and and and a great a greatactually transitional moment is that is that worn
to run film that we talked aboutbefore, which was filmed and catches us
in between a bar band and aconcert band, you know, a very
moment in time. And uh,it's an extremely odd film. You'll never
(57:44):
see anything quite like it because thesound check who the first time we were
ever playing theaters a theater, Rickmanwas our sound Man Our like our like
high and and and the and theand the spot We had spotlights for the
first time, and of course alwayscome from the balcony, right, you
know, right, you know theywere in our eyes. And Mookie we're
(58:07):
gonna call the Mookie Wookie Opilight getthat thing. Yes, bothering me too.
When you see the film, it'sthe most bizarre film we've ever seen
(58:28):
because Bruce has come up to themic and you don't see his face,
you don't see anything. It's verygood. Yes, it's all backwards,
you know, it's like some garyou know, weird anyway, that's why
that's Theater two in a way.Yeah, but the trops. But but
you see Bruce in this in thischaracter, he's playing very clean. He
(58:52):
had gone from this extremely shy guythat I grew up with the picture the
grunge guys. You know when theystarted, you know, long hair and
staring down their shoes while they're playing, right, that was basically you know,
uh, twenty years earlier, youknow, and uh and suddenly you
(59:15):
know, for that tour, hesaid I'm gonna put the guitar because you
know he was in trouble. Youknow, we all know the story,
you know, with representing work,his career was basically over. He's like,
let me just try fronting, youknow, you know, and so
he put the guitar down for aminute. That's why I joined the band.
That's why I let him Jukes todo that. We've been thiss like
(59:36):
seven shows and I ended up stayingseven years. Anyway, So he puts
the guitar down, and suddenly myvery shy, you know, introverted friend
becomes this a whole different guy.You mean, in one night, well
almost overnight. I mean it wasat the bottom line where you know,
(59:59):
the first time really we did this, you know, and you know,
suddenly he's walking on those you know, the tables. Yeah, but to
the stage. Yeah, he's walkingon the tables. Yeah. He's like
he's becoming what we now is oneof the you know, the most amazing
(01:00:19):
yes in the world. This wasnot rehearsed or practiced or talked about.
It just happened in the moment.Oh. Never, nothing, nothing we
do on stage has ever been rehearsed. See this is the question, how
is it so tight? Years ofyears of doing it? The music is
(01:00:42):
tight? Yeah, Oh it startsthere. I mean, you know we
come from that James Brown, Yes, kind of rock met soul thing,
right, yes, yes, yes, it's more obvious in the jokes maybe
you know, yes, but itwas there and in Bruce Brings Unied to
be pan also that that that combinationof rock and soul thing that we all
(01:01:06):
grew up with. So you hada kind of looseness with the rock and
roll and a kind of you know, very tight sort of you know,
soul thing going on simultaneously. Eventhough that contradicts each other, we still
have maintained that contradiction to this day. You know, to come see it,
it's kind of loose as spontaneous andextremely tight at the same time.
(01:01:30):
You know, that's what makes itgreat. I mean, that's great theater
well at all. But anything havingto do with choreography, yeah, he
going over to his mic somebody comingdownstage. You know, he might mention
something like, hey, you know, at this point the horns come on
down, you know, you knowwhat I mean. It might be one
of those things, yeah, andrehearsal or you know, at a sound
(01:01:52):
check, But mostly everything you seeis completely spontaneous and it comes from it
begins with the singer becoming that song, right, Red, you know me?
You know our art form is uhis you know, is probably the
(01:02:14):
most motobiographical art form in a sense, or at least it seems to be.
You know, it's perceived as themost motobiographical, even though it may
not be, you know. Imean, Frank never wrote a thing.
Frank Sinata never wrote a thing inhis life. Right, you would know
that, right, It looks likeyou wrote. He wrote everything he said
(01:02:36):
how to tell the story, No, by the way to the very end,
at the very end of his life. I wrote the liner notes for
Duets that Sinatra the first duets record. So I was brought around to a
lot of the last shows. Igot to watch him up close and whatever
was going on, if he forgotlyrics, if he was yelling at his
son, whatever was going on,and when he would get to the saloon
(01:02:57):
song, when it was one formy Baby, one more for the or
angelized or whatever it was. Hewas the storyteller, best storyteller on earth
every night, because that is whatI always My father raised me on Sinatra,
and I always think he's the firstsinger in history. I hear because
he's the first singer. I believe. Like I know, people tell me,
(01:03:20):
including Bob Dylan, and said bingCrosby was a very good singer.
I can't hear anyone until Sinatra becauseI have a direct line from him to
Bruce and you and all the greatsoul singers. Because I believe him.
I think he's sort of telling mehis story and and he kind of you
know, it's hard to generalize,but he kind of invented that, you
(01:03:43):
know what I mean for him,you know, I mean, everybody loved
bing Crosby, you know, notto Big Crosby now because he was before
him, you know, but youknow they're singing that great singers sing songs,
you know, but you know whetherin order biographical name, he didn't
(01:04:05):
really he didn't really think that way, you know, not really, you
know. I mean, you know, Big Prosy might do a great White
Christmas, but you know who cares. We go. True theater is at
(01:04:44):
the heart of what you guys do. And what I mean by that is
we all know there are giant spectacleshows. Beyonce Taylor Swift. Almost every
giant arena show has giant spectacle.Now, you guys have always had the
plane stage. Yes, you haveyour projections so we can see you better
on the screens. But there's noeffects and there's no but but that's why.
(01:05:08):
But that's big, that's that's for. That's for a dramatic reason.
I know. That's what I mean. Theater that's confirming what you're saying.
Yes, that's what we're communicating isfriendship exactly, community, the connection history,
Yes, and the visuals that youknow I would put into a show
(01:05:31):
you know, you know, becomesa distraction from that. That's right,
and in fact dilutes the real messageand it says something else that you guys
don't need it. That's it,and that's kind of unique yesterday. I'm
proud of that. And it happenedtotally by accident because we we everywhere,
(01:05:54):
every couple of tours, we trysomething, you know, trying you know,
hey maybe we want to have alittle production on this tour. But
you guys are the special effect.That's the thing that it never works out
because you know, people just theywant that the communication that we're basically communicating
(01:06:16):
is is life itself, you know, French history, family, community,
Uh, you know that that thatthat kind of of a theme and this
and this tour in particular, veryvery very specifically the theme of mortality balanced
(01:06:38):
out by vitality, you know,the vitality of the performance balancing out the
mortality of the theme. You know, that was very that was very conscious.
It comes from the last album,the Letter to You, gorgeous album,
so it was it was much morefocused than usual this tour, but
same thing, you know, thesame same kind of thing where any kind
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of production is going to just kindof dilute, dilute the message and be
a distraction from the message. Youguys, you've been such a huge part
of my life for close to fiftyyears. It's just so beautiful to hear
you talk this way about the show, just about one more, you know,
just it struck me when you mentionedDylan. I once got direct writing
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advice from Dylan for a liner notesthing where it was the best advice I've
ever heard. He said, Iwas given the word no adjectives, just
nouns and verbs, and I thought, oh my god. And that's like
as if Hemingway were giving me notes, you know, focus, and you
know, I think I slipped ina couple adjectives, but the lesson was
(01:07:45):
amazing, like the strength of lessbeing more and concrete and keep it real.
I just wonder as a writer,you my three the acts I've seen
the most of my life in orderare the Jukes, Dylan, Springsteen,
Ea Street Band. Those are That'smy top three concert going things. But
(01:08:08):
it's the songs that keep you comingback. It can't be anything other than
That's the core of it. Asa writer, as one of my other
great favorite writers, what do youadmire about Bruce as a writer? What
is what is he? What?What do you admire about what he does
as a writer. Well, youknow, there's so much we we a
(01:08:30):
growing up with the same influences.He The thing that strikes you, I
think first of all, is indiversity, you know, his ability to
really capture different genres you know,and not and not in some sort of
(01:08:51):
diletante type way. You know,the ability to absorb everything we grew up
with. You know, we grewup and I call it a renaissance and
I and I and I mean thatliterally, So growing up in that renaissance
that we grew up in, withso many amazing influences, you can become
(01:09:14):
confused or you can become you know, attracted to one genre or another.
He happens to whatever genre he happensto work in, he really captures the
essence of it. You know,you know, Kitty's Back would be a
good example for instance. You know, you know, you know, we
get a red of jazz. Youknow, a little bit of a jazz
(01:09:36):
song, you know, jazz,a jazz rock influenced song. You know,
boy is that great? Klong sissholdand kidd in his back due she
loved the Marasol talent. Just geta level things. I got a gonna
(01:10:11):
write more of a cinematic type ofsong and more West Side story type of
song. You know, when youwrite strong Land, you know we're meeting
across the river. Uh, youknow, I'm gonna write more of a
pop song. You know, youknow you're gonna you know, hungry Heart,
you know, I mean, andand all those outtakes, amazing outtakes
that other people would have careers frous some of those songs. You know.
(01:10:35):
So so at a certain point,I think I have I have a
theory personally that if you if youwork hard enough on in one area,
and folks, and and and canmaintain a focus in that one area,
be it songwriting or be it carpentryor whatever it is. Eventually you're gonna
(01:10:58):
you're gonna burst open. The damnis gonna break, and suddenly all your
influences and all of your focus andall your work is going to come spilling
out. And that's what happened duringthe Darkness and the River. You know,
he wrote like he wrote like eightand a half songs for born were
Born to Run, you know,and used eight of them, right,
(01:11:20):
he had like a half a songleft over darkness, he writes, sixty
river sixty You know what I mean, All of a sudden, you go,
you know, where did those hundredsongs come from? They just it
was in there, you know,germinating, you know, and suddenly they
burst forth and in all different genresand whatever genre he felt like getting into
(01:11:44):
that day. So he just becameone of the great songwriters of all time.
I think from that intense focus ondigging, digging, digging deep down
inside himself. Who am I?Who am I? How do I express
who I? Who am I?Really? Who I want to be?
You know? And again I talkedabout it in the book, But that
(01:12:05):
transition from Born to Run, thecharacter we see in I'm Born to Run
film to darkness is one hundred andeighty degrees. It's a completely different guy.
And you know most people, whenthey have success, you embrace it
and you say, okay, thankgod, I found I found a connection
(01:12:27):
to the audience. They like mebeing this guy. Yeah, and I'm
born to run. They liked himbeing that underdog kid from Jersey looking across
the river at the big city.That whole thing, right, And he
comes to darkness and says, uh, you know, I'm sorry. I
(01:12:47):
know, I think I asked youto fall in love with that guy.
That's not me. That's not me. This is me, you know,
I hope this is me. Buthe brings up he brings both guys to
the show when you see the show. But well it turned out to be
(01:13:09):
him. I mean that, thatthat whole switch of you know, born
to run as a town full oflosers. I'm getting out of here to
win, right, Yeah, thewhole thing right, one hundred degrees to
I'm staying in town. I'm notonly not fighting with my father anymore.
I'm going to become my father.Had been a bigger change in image and
(01:13:38):
personality and and you know, identity, all right. That was an extremely
courageous thing to do, and peopledon't I don't think people quite understand that
quite, you know, understand thatwhat happened there, you know, or
appreciated, you know. But hemade an amazing, courageous change of identity
(01:14:00):
at that moment, and and andluckily got into who he became. He's
been that guy ever since. He'sthat guy ever since. But but you
know, but that was a wholedifferent guy from from the from the previous
guy. You can I say thoughabout talking about him as a writer.
What I really want you to knowis my favorite there's writing teams everyone knows
(01:14:20):
in a conventional way that rite together, like you know, obviously Lennon and
McCartney Backreck David, but weirdly myDesert Island Disc. If I had to
take one record, one single album, I would take Songs in the Key
of Life and screw all of you, all all the white guys. If
I had to take one album,but Hearts of Stone by Southside John and
the as Ray Jukes is my sortof favorite album. Secretly, Desert Island
(01:14:45):
Disc album and what I think isyou and Bruce are my favorite writing team
because on those records, the firstthree Jukes records. You would call on
him to come in and throw afew things in. And the blend of
the writing because you're similar, asyou mentioned, coming up in the Renaissance
and loving a lot of the samestuff. It blends. But I find
the partnership when Bruce was contributing,and that's true of That's why the you
(01:15:13):
know, Gary os Bonds record wasstill in my car. Those records where
you and Bruce were both writing aremy favorite records of all time. I
need you to know that that there'ssomething and I think somehow, in a
different way than other writing teams,you urged each other on and you know
and and made such a perfect teamin a different kind of way. Yeah,
(01:15:33):
I thank you first of all.But I think there's something too that
whether you're writing in the same moomor not even you know, but if
you know you're going to play thatsong for the other guy. I think
that influenced Lennon McCartney. I thinkthat influenced Jagger Richards. I think that
influences every writing team, whether actuallywriting in the same move or not.
(01:15:55):
And a lot of times you're notyou know, those songs, you know,
Bruce would have the riff and loveon the wrong side of town,
you know, and then I wouldgo home and write the rest you know,
uh or you know or whatever itmight be. But but just knowing,
(01:16:16):
and I'm sure it's true with LennonMcCartney in particular, and I think
Jacker Richards to just knowing you're gonnahave to play that song for that other
guy you know already changes the wayyou write, you know, I believe
that. And then and you cansee from the solo records after the band's
break up how different those songs become. That's the reason. And no longer
(01:16:41):
no longer playing that song for theother guy, and they're usually not as
good to hold due respect, youknow, you know that that's just it's
just usually not as good because youyou don't have that additional bit of uh
yeah, not competition, but butyou know you want you want, you
want your best friend or your cowriter or you know, your your guy,
(01:17:04):
and the other guy in the bandyou wanted. You wanted to like
what he's hearing. You wanted tobe as enthusiastic as you are. And
I think sort of the opposite ofthat is true of one of some of
the other like rumors by Fleetwood Backto be it's the interesting one because I'm
like the Street Band as far asI know, was not sleeping together early
on in those early days, butor the Jukes as I hope. But
(01:17:27):
with Fleetwood Back, you literally hadlovers writing songs at each other. It
was so and they knew they weregoing to have to hear him, you
know. You know, Lindsay knewGo your Own Way was going to be
heard by Stevie, you know that, I think. But I think that
having that audience in the band oneway or another, positive or negative,
that is it, even if it'scompetition, it's a positive thing. Yes,
(01:17:47):
I think so. I believe that. I believe that because you know,
just people buy themselves. It's justthere as good. And that's why
most of the great, the greatsongs are from writing teams. You know,
if you really think about it,you know, Bob Dylan may be
the only exception, but most ofthe time, you know, and who
knows. Even in Bob's case,you know, maybe he knew he had
(01:18:11):
to play it for you know,Joan Baez, or he knew he had
to play it for Bob Newarth,or he had to play it for you
know, Alan Ginsberg or you know, you know what I mean in his
mind, you know, he knewhe had you know, he's going to
play these songs for some of hisclosest friends, you know, or Susie
Rottolo or you know, whoever itmight be. You know, you know
that might have played a role inhis head because you know, with Susie
(01:18:33):
Rittola, his first girlfriend, reallythat got him into the politics, right,
the god the goddam politically engaged,you know, I mean, if
not for her, does he writeyou know, those phenomenal political songs on
the second and third album, right, and she can be reduced to some
people to this is a pretty girlon the cover of Free Wheeling or whatever.
(01:18:53):
But in fact, like, yeah, the muse is extremely and the
sort of inspiration and the intellectual sortof inspiration politically engaged, you know,
which he in a funny way,you know, never never really never really
although although he was you know,he was down there, he went down
and he's had some very special momentsnow South but but but you know,
(01:19:16):
he never really that wasn't that wasn'this natural instinct to become politically engaged,
you know, But I just think, you know, want to impress this
girl, right, you know,right, you know, you know these
amazing, you know, the mostpolitical songs ever written ever, you know,
the most the most politically engaging artisticsongs ever written, completely blowing the
(01:19:42):
minds of the folk music world,who you know, weren't taking him for
what, were't taking him seriously afterthe first album, you know, suddenly
they were like, holy shit,you know, you know what he just
wrong? You know, so youknow, you know, I mean so
so I think even in his case, I think you know, there was
an influence, there was an influencegoing on there of who you playing that
(01:20:06):
song for it? You know whatI mean. It's going to always influence
a little bit, how that,how that composition, how it goes,
and how dig you how deep youdig for well. One of the revelations
of your book to me was thestories about like when Bob Dylan, when
you almost got to or almost producedhim, you know, the sort of
and then when you had a hugeimpact on him. I actually reviewed in
(01:20:28):
Rolling Stone good as I've been toyou, and I remember in our world
the when he returned to stand itsort of folk music and sort of went
back to the beginning and re foundhis way, which I think is why
he's still so great. Like Ijust saw him. His last record is
one of my favorite records they everdid. His last tour was the best
show I ever saw him give.Uh, And I think partly was I
(01:20:49):
didn't know that whole story where youbasically sort of by reacting a certain way
helped maybe set him off to readon his path back. Yeah, you
know, maybe it was, youknow, certainly coincidental. If it wasn't,
because he was going in a wholedifferent way, you know, and
he just and we won't tell thestory. People shouldn't read the book.
(01:21:13):
Two fan questions before I know,we've probably taken too much of your time,
but two fan questions. The moviebecause Men Without Women is one of
my favorite records of all time.The movie how much footage is there that
exists for whatever you were thinking?That was it? John Cassavetti's even gave
you a few minutes of advice likehis will that ever be seen in any
(01:21:34):
form in your documentary? Or Ipray it scene sometime? Yeah, we
we recently founded I can't remember whofound it, but it was a movie.
It was at the can Film Festivalwas released. It played in very
select theaters. I remember Chris Columbusthat he saw it in la I think
west Wood. But yeah, andthere are definitely scenes from it in the
(01:21:59):
docum. I think it beautiful,you know, I always thought it was.
We just had done like you know, it's a work in progress,
you know, were we shot acouple of scenes and the record company guy.
This came from the beginning of MTV, you know, and just a
couple of years in now this iseighty two, eighty one, eighty two,
(01:22:21):
and MTV was like nineteen eighty right, you know, pretty pretty early
on. But right away people aremaking videos for twenty fifty thousand, three
hundred thousand, you know, prettyquickly. I'm like, wait a minute,
you do three movies, but youknow, three hundred thousand, we're
gonna do an independent movie, right, you know, Roger Corman does it
(01:22:43):
all the time, you know.So I thought, let's, you know,
let's let's do a movie, youknow what, pull the videos out
of it, you know, Andso we did it as a work in
progress, you know, kind ofscenes. The record company guy was supposed
to arrange for finance at can weactually performed at can I think we're the
first rock band ever to do so. I think so, and showed it
(01:23:06):
as a work in progress it canand a record company guy never never organized
the meetings or never got funded,and got put on a shelf. Cut
to forty years later and one ofmy guys somebody found it and said,
you know, it actually makes senseas a movie. You know, there
(01:23:29):
wasn't just a couple of scenes kindof strung together. It's a little bit
you know, impressionistic. You know, it's not big on you know,
exposition, you know, but it'skind of almost like a French New wave,
you know, kind of a vibe, you know, where you know,
personalities are more important than the storyline. And so they found it.
(01:23:54):
It supposedly makes sense actually as amovie, and we're going to try and
actually get it, get it somehow, get it released somehow. Oh that's
great. I would I would lovethat. That record has just means so
much to me. I can't tellyou. And I'm amazed at David Chase
never told you that the photo youmaybe get a creator credit for Sopranos all
(01:24:15):
around, because he said it wasthat image that really stayed with him,
that is that makes this lunch completelythat that I'd never heard before. Man,
that's a good one. Wow.Well you deserve only nice lunches.
(01:24:40):
So thank you for for being withus, Maureen. Uh, we will
do a show just with you.I don't think a lot more interesting than
you think. Oh no, Ithink very interesting. I heard just a
couple of things today that her supremelyinteresting. Oh no, listen, I
(01:25:03):
believe here's another weird fact. Ithink I was at your first date because
I believe my first my second concertever was a Capital Theater New Year's Eve
juke show. And if it wasthe same, I don't know if there
were a couple that, but Ithat was my second concert ever that I
(01:25:23):
managed to get my parents to driveme from Tenifying, New Jersey to the
Capital Theater in Passaic. I don'tknow how I was able to do that.
Ye right, yep, New Year'sEve. So that's when you met.
That was the first date. Amazing? Aren't either romantic? Fool try
(01:25:46):
to figure out a way to impressme? I guess yes. Well,
we we just love talking to youguys. Thank you so much. Thank
you for your careers so far.We look forward to a lot more say
hello to Ray Nope. Naked Lunchis a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and David
(01:26:10):
Wilde. Theme song and music byBrad Paisley, Produced by Will Sterling.
Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal, DavidWilde, and our consulting journalist is Pamela
Cellen. If you enjoyed the show, share it with a friend, But
if you can't take my word forit, take Phil's and don't forget to
leave a good rating and review welike five stars. Thanks for listening to
Naked Lunch, a Lucky Bastard's production.