September 8, 2023 • 28 mins
A cheap, illegal amphetamine called captagon is raising alarm around the globe after circulating for years in the Middle East. The US and its allies say much of the world’s supply of captagon is made in Syria–and that the government of President Bashar Al-Assad is using captagon sales abroad to cushion the financial blow of Western sanctions on Syria.
Bloomberg’s Sam Dagher and Samy Adghirni join this episode to describe captagon’s rise from 1960s German pharmaceutical to pervasive street drug, and why European officials are so concerned about a possible influx within their borders.
Caroline Rose, Director of the Captagon Trade Project at the New Lines Institute explains how the US is responding to the spread of captagon.
Read more: ‘Poor Man’s Cocaine’ Costing $3 a Pill Threatens to Proliferate
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
When we talk about the illicit drug trade, it's often
cocaine or heroin, or these days fentanyl crossing borders to
be put on the streets. But there's another drug you
might never have heard of that's gaining ground in Europe
and the Middle East, and it's being closely watched by
the US too. It's called captigon. It's a highly addictive
(00:21):
stimulant that can trigger a boost in energy and a
sense of invincibility. Captigan isn't new, It's been in circulation
since the nineteen sixties. Gulf Arab states have been the
biggest market over the past two decades, but it's now
starting to spread to Europe and elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We have new information tonight from US officials who say
there is a powerful amphetamine called captigon circulating throughout war
zones of the Middle East, and tonight we're told Jie
Hottest fighters are believed to be using it as a
goat pill on the battlefield.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So why are we talking about it now?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Syria has become a major producer of captigan over the
past years, sending ripple effects through the entire region.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
The UK government estimates that today eighty percent of the
world's captagon is produced in Syria, and the trade is
worth about three times the combined totals of the Mexican
drug cartels. The US and its European allies say the
government of Bashar al Assad is widely distributing the drug.
They say he's using the billions of dollars in sales
(01:26):
as a financial lifeline to soften the blow of Western
economic sanctions.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
The United States imposted its toughest sanctions ever on Syria
on Wednesday, aiming to choke off revenue for Syrian President
Bashar al Assad's government in an effort to force the
country back to un led negotiations and broker a deal
to end the country's nearly decade long war.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The US moved to punish Syria after Asad's deadly suppression
of a popular uprising in twenty eleven. Since then, the
regime has fought off rebels for control of the country
in a civil war that is killed hundreds of thousands
of people. Western officials say Asad is also trying to
use Captigan to pressure other nations to end serious isolation.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Syrian President basharho Asad is attending the Arab League summit
in Saudi Arabia for the first time since its country
was suspended from the organization in twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
That's something the US opposes, but some other nations in
the region are at least considering.
Speaker 6 (02:26):
This really was the low hanging fruit. For many of
these countries. This would be something that they could convince
the regime to make progress on and exchange for getting
and building momentum to get to the more difficult agenda items.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's Caroline Rose. She's the director of the Captigan Trade
Project at the New Lines Institute. We'll hear more from
her a bit later. First, I want to talk to Bloomberg,
Sam Dagger in Dubai and samiad Garney in Paris. They've
been reporting on Captigan's rise as a street drug and
as ann unlikely political tool. I'm wes Kosova today on
(03:09):
the big take. How at decades old drug became an
international bargaining chip. Sammy right that Captagan is really spreading
through Europe. I think a lot of people outside of
the Europe have yet to even hear about Captigan exactly.
(03:29):
What is it.
Speaker 7 (03:30):
It's an emfetamine type pill. It first appeared in the
nineteen sixties in Germany as an authorized pharmaceutical under the
trade name Captagon. Its main ingredient was fentolin and it
was prescribed for a range of conditions including attention deficit,
hyperactivity disorder, and narcolepsy. And then in the eighties, when
(03:51):
fenthln was outlawed, production moved to southern and Eastern Europe,
and then after the collapse of the Soviet Union, they
started to make it in On and Syria. I mean,
you could say the production of it as an illicit
drug kind of started in the eighties in eastern and
southern Europe and then moved to the Middle East, to
(04:11):
Lebanon and Syria.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And Sammy, you right that now this drug is being
distributed across Europe and beyond exactly who is using it.
Speaker 8 (04:22):
A lot of people are using that drug workers in
the Middle East, the youth, also throughout Middle East countries,
especially Gulf countries. It's become a major concern in countries
like Saudi Arabia, and officials in European countries have noticed
that shipments to Europe have increased. There's been significant amount
(04:44):
of captagon seized in countries like Italy and France, and
by all accounts, it has become a major concern for officials.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Why are people taking this? There are a lot of
different kinds of illicit drugs. Why has this one gained
such wide years?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
This is nothing new here in the Middle East. I
mean this has been going on for the past twenty years,
and mainly as Sammy said, I mean a lot of
young people view it as a party drug. I mean
it's cheap depending on the quality. I mean it's as
cheap as three dollars a pill to almost twenty five dollars,
So it's popular with like partygoers, with construction workers in
(05:24):
this part of the world who need to work double shifts.
So this drug has been coming into mainly the Gulf
States here for the past twenty years. But what changed
is in the past ten years when the war started
in Syria and sanctions were imposed on the Asad regime
and the regime and its ally in Lebanon, the Iran
(05:45):
backed militia has Bola ratcheted up productions significantly, so they
saw it as a revenue generator. And the main destination
of this drug has been Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Is capdigan used with in Syria? We know it's exported,
but what about inside Syria?
Speaker 8 (06:03):
Itself.
Speaker 7 (06:04):
Yes, Captagon is used in Syria, particularly by fighters, I mean,
whether they're on the regime side, whether I mean there
are all sorts of groups fighting in Syria. Still, when
the Islamic State was in control of much of eastern
Syria and large parts of Iraq, its fighters were using
captagon as well.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
While we were preparing the story, I had a chance
to chat with someone from France who had been paying
attention to kaptagon for a couple of years, and this
person said something quite interesting. Person said that people who
are using captagon, at least in France, are mostly living
in the countryside. So these are people who cannot afford
expensive drugs like cocaine, and they're not let's say, cool
(06:44):
enough to use marijuana or other cosmopolitan, more urban drugs
like ecstasy, for example, which are also more expensive, way
more expensive than captigon. You know, this is something that
really caught my attention. But this is something that may
the tracking even more difficult because it's not happening in
big cities. What's a matter of concern for officials is
(07:07):
the tendency numbers are pretty small at this stage. They've
noticed that there's a deliberate, a clear push from the
asset regime to increase flows of captagon to Europe. So
it is something that will likely become a much bigger
headache in the foreseeable fouture.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Sammy, what do we know about how much of this
drug is being exported into European countries and elsewhere and
how many people are using it?
Speaker 8 (07:37):
There are no available data in Europe on how many
people are using this. But we went from something that
didn't exist at all as early as four years ago,
five years ago to a major source of concern. So
while numbers are still relatively low, they are going up,
They're increasing.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
How dependent is Syria on the money from this illicit
trade drugs?
Speaker 7 (08:01):
Very dependent, I mean, particularly as I mentioned the armed
groups and the militias that are essential to the survival
of this regime. And researchers estimate anywhere from seven to
ten billion dollars generated over the past three years, and
this is based on the amounts seized all over the world.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Sam Syria's government has used captigan as a tool or
bargaining chip. What is Syria doing This is.
Speaker 7 (08:28):
A revenue generator for the regime, yes, but the money
is not going into like serious treasury or to fund
the government. I mean, it's going to fund paramilitary units
and armed groups that are essential to the security of
the regime. Captagon is one of the many tools that
the regime is trying to use to put pressure on
(08:53):
Arab states like Saudi Arabia on the West to obtain
you know, sanctions, relieve reconstruction, money, diplomatic recognition. He's also
using the issue of refugees and refugee returns. So Captagon
kind of falls into the many tools that the regime
is using in order to extract concessions from the West
(09:13):
and from you know, regional players like Saudi Arabia and others.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
What does as i'd say about the Captain guide trade?
Does he acknowledged that the country is pushing this drug.
Speaker 7 (09:25):
In a recent interview, he denied involvement, but he said yes,
he acknowledged that it is a problem that it is
being produced and trafficked out of Syria and Lebanon. And
he said, basically this is what you get when you
have chaos in war. But he put the blame on
the West. He said, you came in and you supported
groups that try to topple me, and he says I
(09:47):
can help you solve this problem. It isn't my interest
to solve this problem, this is what he claims. But
in return for that help, I need you to do
certain things, including lift sanctions because I mean these sanctions
are crippling and sweeping. Also that you have to give
me money to rebuild Syria, to put people back to work,
(10:08):
to make sure that people have other sources of revenue,
and on and on, And this is how he goes
about it.
Speaker 8 (10:15):
Maybe the difference between what they say publicly and what
they don't say publicly is how much tides their hands are.
I've heard from golf officials who have been in direct
contact with the Syrians, and then they say that behind
closed doors, the Syrians make very clear that they could
easily stop it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
After the break. Our Western leaders considering concessions to Syria
to reduce the flow of captagan Sammy. Is anyone suggesting
that Syria should be granted some concession so they'll cut
(10:56):
down on this trade.
Speaker 8 (10:57):
Yes, big time. Yes, this is what some golf countries
have been advocating. This is what they're asking their European
country partents, especially the Americans, because maybe the biggest concern
for the Serians is sanctions, especially US sanctions US unilateral sanctions.
Officials from Golf states have been lobbying European countries to
(11:21):
make concessions. They say the Europeans should embrace reality and
should recognize the fact on the ground. The reality on
the ground is that Bashar has won the war. He's
not going anywhere, So you have no choice. It's either
you deal with the guy who you don't like, but
you know, this is the only way you can solve
that kind of problem, including terrorism and captagon, or you know,
(11:42):
you pretend that you will stick to your policy, which
is leading nowhere. You know. An interesting aspect of that
conversation is that the Europeans are divided. They don't have
necessarily the same views. A country like Italy would be
keen on somehow it's policy, but they understand that it
(12:03):
could be more constructive to try and build bridges, to
try to find some common ground on a variety of issues,
especially when it comes to refugees or keptical because obviously
Italy is closer to the eastern part of euro so
they're geographically closer to the problem. On the other hand,
you have the hardliners like Germany or France, especially France.
(12:26):
Macron made very clear that France's line on Syria will
not going to change. So zero code like zero recognition
and zero concession. I think one of the reasons that
helped explain, you know, the reluctance of countries like France
and Germany is that they basically said that these efforts
to somehow moderate these authoritarian leaders never works, just a
(12:50):
waste of time and energy. And they often cite as
an example Bashar himself, you know, not so long ago
in two thousand and eight, if I'm not mistaken, but
Shark to Paris. You know, back then France was trying
to extend another branch to Syria. So Bashark came to
Paris a very nice visit. They red carpet him, and
(13:13):
then they did the same with Walmar Kadaffi from Libya,
and all they got was more repression, violence, human rights violations.
And so the conclusion is that it never works.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
What has the US response been to these ideas of
giving into some of Asad's demands.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
The US have made very clear that they're not willing
to make any concession to the Asad regime, and I
think sanctions that have been approved in the US make
that very clear. There is no room for any sort
of concession.
Speaker 7 (13:50):
Earlier this year, when the Arab States were discussing readmitting
Seria to the Arab League, the US was telling them, fine,
but you have to get something in return. I mean,
you have to get prisoner releases, a real engagement by
the regime in the UN led efforts to end the
(14:10):
conflict and to launch a credible political process. We have
to see concrete moves by the regime. So the US
was always telling the Arab States, you can normalize ties
with him, you can bring him back to the Arab League,
but you have to get something out of him first.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Sammy, Given how complicated this is, where do you see
it going from here?
Speaker 8 (14:33):
It's very difficult to tell. I don't see Europe changing
its stance in the foreseeable future. I'm not sure Arab
and Gulf country will take any benefits from reintegrating asad
to the Arab League. He's not really addressing the Capta
gun flows. And even when it comes to the economy
(14:56):
to business perspective, this is a country in ruins. Know
this has been completely destroyed by war. The economy has
collapsed to the Syrian currency is the way, there's a
fraction of what it was until a few years ago.
So even when it comes to investment, how can you
possibly invest in a country that is under such heavy sanctions.
(15:19):
So this is also you know, part of the conversations
that countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia that do
have a lot of cash, that have big funds that
could potentially be used to invest in Syria, but it's
just not going to happen. How can you invest in
a country where you know, sanctions are so so harsh.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So what tools, if any, do other nations have to
stop or reduce the flow of captagon before it becomes
out of control.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
I think if Iran switched its position. I think if
Iran decided to take a less soft stence on Syria,
that they could be change because Iran has been not
only a political supporter or a political backer of ASAB,
but also a key support when it comes to, you know,
(16:10):
the security apparatus. And also maybe Russia. Russia is still
a key factor in any conversation involving Syria. But at
this point it's very hard to see any reason why
Syria would change its course. There's a real risk of
seeing a Narco state so close to Europe.
Speaker 7 (16:32):
From the point of view of the Syrian opposition, they're
pleading their case with the West and Arab states the
following way. They're telling them, you're not going to get
anything out of this regime. The only solution is to
help us affect change in Syria. I mean, they're not
saying launch a military operation to topple us out, but
(16:52):
somehow help us launch a credible political process that would
change the system in Syria, bringing a new form of
governance in Syria, and eventually ease Assad out.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Sam Sammy, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 8 (17:09):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
When we come back, what are the US and its
allies doing to halt the Captigan trade. We've talked about
what the illicit Captagan trade means for Gulf countries and Europe.
Let's not take a closer look at what the US
(17:33):
is doing about it. Caroline Rose is the director of
the Captigan Trade Project at the New Lines Institute, that's
a think tank here in Washington. Caroline, Captagan is obviously
a top concern in Europe and other parts of the world,
but it hasn't quite reached the US yet. How concerned
are policy makers lawmakers about it eventually crossing the ocean
(17:58):
and coming to the US.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
I think that we're a long time out from seeing
Captagon hit US markets. I don't think it's quite yet
something that would be competitive. That being said, I think
that recently we've started to see a huge uptick and
concern over Captigon reaching European markets as well as markets
(18:22):
in Africa, and over the last year or so we've
started to see some pretty clear signals that Captigon is
beginning to carve out not only transit routes but potential
consumption markets in these areas. For example, this past July
we not only found a warehouse in Bavaria in Germany,
(18:42):
but also a laboratory, which shows that these networks are
starting to dig their heels in and really settle and
create embedded networks in the European continent.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
How much of the effort to stop Captagon is about
other nations relationships with Syria and with Asad.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Ever, since the Syrian Civil War broke out and the
Ystad regime imposed atrocious crimes against humanity against their own citizens,
Syria for the large part has been iced out, pushed
out of the diplomatic Forum, and because of that it
has not been able to participate in the Arab League
if with many countries it's not allowed to have an
(19:24):
embassy in their capital city, and many countries don't even
engage in high level phone calls with officials. Most recently
there's also been sanctions on suspected traffickers of the captaicone
trade as well, which has also had quite an economic
impact in the country. But recently, after a very devastating
(19:45):
earthquake in southern Turkey in northern Syria, a lot of
countries that were toying and experimenting with the idea of
normalization have sought kind of this window of opportunity and
have started to race to achieve normalization with the Syria
in regime. Really, the definition of what normalization would look
like would be the resumption of diplomatic ties. During these
(20:07):
normalization discussions we saw in the spring there was a
surge in bilateral calls and meetings and discussions about bringing
Syria back into the Arab League, and Captigon was one
of the most prominent discussion items. Why I think there
is a genuine wish and a genuine aim and objective
to improve counter narcotic capabilities, but ultimately this really was
(20:32):
the low hanging fruit for many of these countries in
order to even tackle these more sensitive and more difficult
agenda items such as the patriation and a political settlement.
They believe that captigone a trade that not many people
know about, a trade where they perceived the regime as
having leverage and agency over this would be something that
(20:54):
they could convince the regime to make progress on and
exchange for getting an building momentum to get to the
more difficult agenda items. How that's worked out, I don't
think it's necessarily played out the way that regional countries
have helped for especially this past May. In this past April,
we're still seeing captagon seized regularly along the Jordanian and
(21:18):
Syrian border. In Saudi Arabia, they're continuing seizures, especially of
shipments that seem and appear to be coming from Syria
or Lebanon. So this has really in no way been
able to stem the flow of captagon. And while the
Syrian regime has been able to seize a few things
here and there as kind of this confidence building measure,
(21:41):
really the flow of the trade has not significantly been reduced.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
What kind of pressure, if any, is the US bringing
to bear when it comes to Captigon itself.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
So this past March, the US Department of State and
Department of Treasury they impose joint sanctions with the UK's
Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office the FCDO.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Today, the United States took action and coordination with the
United Kingdom to designate key individuals supporting the regime of
Syrian President Bashar al Asad and the production or export
in Syria and Lebanon of a dangerous amphetamine type stimulant
known as Captagon.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
And they announced those sanctions on March twenty eighth.
Speaker 8 (22:25):
It was a.
Speaker 6 (22:25):
Series of sanctions on individuals as well as some commercial
entities that were highly suspected of involvement in the kaptagon trade,
whether production or trafficking. The EU followed very shortly after
in April and also impose their own sanctions as well.
And what this does effectively imposes kind of this travel band,
(22:48):
so a lot of these individuals will never be really
allowed to travel to the EU, to the United States,
the UK. It also of course imposes a freeze on
their assets and really does try and make it very
difficult for any company that has relations with these three
governments to do commercial business with these individuals and these
(23:10):
commercial entities.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Has that had any real world effect as you describe it,
at the Captigan flows seems to be going on unabated.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
They certainly do have an effect in the sense of
they have imposed a degree of accountability on these actors.
It shows to the Syrian government and it demonstrates to
the region that the United States, the UK, and the
EU are quite serious and are closely monitoring this issue,
which a few years ago, really I don't necessarily think
that we could have said that Kapta Gond still is
(23:42):
a niche issue. But back in twenty eighteen twenty seventeen,
when we started to see a huge uptick in the trade,
the United States didn't quite have a strategy on that.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Another thing we saw last year was the US Congress
passed the Captigon Act. Can you tell us what that
is in Is it a serious piece of legislation or
is it just more like a signaling device.
Speaker 6 (24:05):
So I think that the Captagon Act, which was an
amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act, really did have
a lot of teeth and concrete measures in the sense
that it required the United States government to have an
interagency strategy specifically about Captigon related to Syria, of course,
and you know, the Syria team over at State Department
(24:27):
had a lot of agency over this, but it required
an interagency conversation regularly between the United States Department of State, Treasury,
Department of Defense, and intelligence agencies to share what they
know and to try and get as much information as
possible to start monitoring seriously the Captagon trade as it
(24:48):
relates to Syria, but also as it relates to the
region and to the security of its partners. We saw
the US State Department release that report and release that
strategy this past June, essentially communicating what they've been able
to do, what they've been up to in terms of
improving counter and narcotics in addiction capacity, but also of
(25:10):
course coordinating with partners, keeping pressure against the Syrian regime
and against of course the greater tide of normalization. And
so you know, really I think that there's a lot
more momentum with the strategy, and we're starting to see
that as you know, these discussions over Captigon evolve, and.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Are we seeing bipartisan support for this issue.
Speaker 6 (25:30):
Yes, So I believe that you know, back when six
five four to two the amendment was passed that was
sponsored by both french Hill, who is a Republican in
the House of Representatives, but also Brendan Boyle.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
My friends, this is why this bill is so critical
and important at this time. We need an all of
government approach to addressing Assad's regime of drug production and trafficking.
Captagon has already reached Europe and it's only a matter
of time before it reaches our shores.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
And recently there is a new piece of Captigon related
legislation that was proposed again by french Hill, Republican, but
then also by Democratic Representative Jared Moskowitz.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Caroline, where do you think things head from here? It
seems like a bit of an intractable problem.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
It's going to be very difficult to completely quelsh the
Captagon trade. I think it's also extremely important that we
don't evolve into a whackable strategy of trying to go
after directly only the kingpins without looking at the production process,
or the precursors or even the demand side of the
(26:45):
Captagon challenge. So I think it's going to have to
involve a very comprehensive approach from the United States and
its partners as well as regional countries. When looking at
this problem set, the captagon trade is going to expands
most certainly geographically into Europe to Africa as well, particularly
(27:06):
Sub Saharan Africa and Northern Africa, where we're already starting
to see storage facilities and low level demand. And that
is going to be a greater challenge and a challenge
that goes beyond the issue of Syria, but rather it's
going to be kind of a trans regional illicit economy
that will pose both security challenges but also of course
(27:28):
long term health challenges.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Caroline, thanks so much for speaking with me.
Speaker 6 (27:34):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take.
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(28:01):
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Leo Sidrin. I'm West Kosova. We'll be back on Monday
with another big take. Have a great weekend.
When we talk about the illicit drug trade, it's often
cocaine or heroin, or these days fentanyl crossing borders to
be put on the streets. But there's another drug you
might never have heard of that's gaining ground in Europe
and the Middle East, and it's being closely watched by
the US too. It's called captigon. It's a highly addictive
(00:21):
stimulant that can trigger a boost in energy and a
sense of invincibility. Captigan isn't new, It's been in circulation
since the nineteen sixties. Gulf Arab states have been the
biggest market over the past two decades, but it's now
starting to spread to Europe and elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We have new information tonight from US officials who say
there is a powerful amphetamine called captigon circulating throughout war
zones of the Middle East, and tonight we're told Jie
Hottest fighters are believed to be using it as a
goat pill on the battlefield.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So why are we talking about it now?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Syria has become a major producer of captigan over the
past years, sending ripple effects through the entire region.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
The UK government estimates that today eighty percent of the
world's captagon is produced in Syria, and the trade is
worth about three times the combined totals of the Mexican
drug cartels. The US and its European allies say the
government of Bashar al Assad is widely distributing the drug.
They say he's using the billions of dollars in sales
(01:26):
as a financial lifeline to soften the blow of Western
economic sanctions.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
The United States imposted its toughest sanctions ever on Syria
on Wednesday, aiming to choke off revenue for Syrian President
Bashar al Assad's government in an effort to force the
country back to un led negotiations and broker a deal
to end the country's nearly decade long war.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The US moved to punish Syria after Asad's deadly suppression
of a popular uprising in twenty eleven. Since then, the
regime has fought off rebels for control of the country
in a civil war that is killed hundreds of thousands
of people. Western officials say Asad is also trying to
use Captigan to pressure other nations to end serious isolation.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Syrian President basharho Asad is attending the Arab League summit
in Saudi Arabia for the first time since its country
was suspended from the organization in twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
That's something the US opposes, but some other nations in
the region are at least considering.
Speaker 6 (02:26):
This really was the low hanging fruit. For many of
these countries. This would be something that they could convince
the regime to make progress on and exchange for getting
and building momentum to get to the more difficult agenda items.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's Caroline Rose. She's the director of the Captigan Trade
Project at the New Lines Institute. We'll hear more from
her a bit later. First, I want to talk to Bloomberg,
Sam Dagger in Dubai and samiad Garney in Paris. They've
been reporting on Captigan's rise as a street drug and
as ann unlikely political tool. I'm wes Kosova today on
(03:09):
the big take. How at decades old drug became an
international bargaining chip. Sammy right that Captagan is really spreading
through Europe. I think a lot of people outside of
the Europe have yet to even hear about Captigan exactly.
(03:29):
What is it.
Speaker 7 (03:30):
It's an emfetamine type pill. It first appeared in the
nineteen sixties in Germany as an authorized pharmaceutical under the
trade name Captagon. Its main ingredient was fentolin and it
was prescribed for a range of conditions including attention deficit,
hyperactivity disorder, and narcolepsy. And then in the eighties, when
(03:51):
fenthln was outlawed, production moved to southern and Eastern Europe,
and then after the collapse of the Soviet Union, they
started to make it in On and Syria. I mean,
you could say the production of it as an illicit
drug kind of started in the eighties in eastern and
southern Europe and then moved to the Middle East, to
(04:11):
Lebanon and Syria.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And Sammy, you right that now this drug is being
distributed across Europe and beyond exactly who is using it.
Speaker 8 (04:22):
A lot of people are using that drug workers in
the Middle East, the youth, also throughout Middle East countries,
especially Gulf countries. It's become a major concern in countries
like Saudi Arabia, and officials in European countries have noticed
that shipments to Europe have increased. There's been significant amount
(04:44):
of captagon seized in countries like Italy and France, and
by all accounts, it has become a major concern for officials.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Why are people taking this? There are a lot of
different kinds of illicit drugs. Why has this one gained
such wide years?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
This is nothing new here in the Middle East. I
mean this has been going on for the past twenty years,
and mainly as Sammy said, I mean a lot of
young people view it as a party drug. I mean
it's cheap depending on the quality. I mean it's as
cheap as three dollars a pill to almost twenty five dollars,
So it's popular with like partygoers, with construction workers in
(05:24):
this part of the world who need to work double shifts.
So this drug has been coming into mainly the Gulf
States here for the past twenty years. But what changed
is in the past ten years when the war started
in Syria and sanctions were imposed on the Asad regime
and the regime and its ally in Lebanon, the Iran
(05:45):
backed militia has Bola ratcheted up productions significantly, so they
saw it as a revenue generator. And the main destination
of this drug has been Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Is capdigan used with in Syria? We know it's exported,
but what about inside Syria?
Speaker 8 (06:03):
Itself.
Speaker 7 (06:04):
Yes, Captagon is used in Syria, particularly by fighters, I mean,
whether they're on the regime side, whether I mean there
are all sorts of groups fighting in Syria. Still, when
the Islamic State was in control of much of eastern
Syria and large parts of Iraq, its fighters were using
captagon as well.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
While we were preparing the story, I had a chance
to chat with someone from France who had been paying
attention to kaptagon for a couple of years, and this
person said something quite interesting. Person said that people who
are using captagon, at least in France, are mostly living
in the countryside. So these are people who cannot afford
expensive drugs like cocaine, and they're not let's say, cool
(06:44):
enough to use marijuana or other cosmopolitan, more urban drugs
like ecstasy, for example, which are also more expensive, way
more expensive than captigon. You know, this is something that
really caught my attention. But this is something that may
the tracking even more difficult because it's not happening in
big cities. What's a matter of concern for officials is
(07:07):
the tendency numbers are pretty small at this stage. They've
noticed that there's a deliberate, a clear push from the
asset regime to increase flows of captagon to Europe. So
it is something that will likely become a much bigger
headache in the foreseeable fouture.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Sammy, what do we know about how much of this
drug is being exported into European countries and elsewhere and
how many people are using it?
Speaker 8 (07:37):
There are no available data in Europe on how many
people are using this. But we went from something that
didn't exist at all as early as four years ago,
five years ago to a major source of concern. So
while numbers are still relatively low, they are going up,
They're increasing.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
How dependent is Syria on the money from this illicit
trade drugs?
Speaker 7 (08:01):
Very dependent, I mean, particularly as I mentioned the armed
groups and the militias that are essential to the survival
of this regime. And researchers estimate anywhere from seven to
ten billion dollars generated over the past three years, and
this is based on the amounts seized all over the world.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Sam Syria's government has used captigan as a tool or
bargaining chip. What is Syria doing This is.
Speaker 7 (08:28):
A revenue generator for the regime, yes, but the money
is not going into like serious treasury or to fund
the government. I mean, it's going to fund paramilitary units
and armed groups that are essential to the security of
the regime. Captagon is one of the many tools that
the regime is trying to use to put pressure on
(08:53):
Arab states like Saudi Arabia on the West to obtain
you know, sanctions, relieve reconstruction, money, diplomatic recognition. He's also
using the issue of refugees and refugee returns. So Captagon
kind of falls into the many tools that the regime
is using in order to extract concessions from the West
(09:13):
and from you know, regional players like Saudi Arabia and others.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
What does as i'd say about the Captain guide trade?
Does he acknowledged that the country is pushing this drug.
Speaker 7 (09:25):
In a recent interview, he denied involvement, but he said yes,
he acknowledged that it is a problem that it is
being produced and trafficked out of Syria and Lebanon. And
he said, basically this is what you get when you
have chaos in war. But he put the blame on
the West. He said, you came in and you supported
groups that try to topple me, and he says I
(09:47):
can help you solve this problem. It isn't my interest
to solve this problem, this is what he claims. But
in return for that help, I need you to do
certain things, including lift sanctions because I mean these sanctions
are crippling and sweeping. Also that you have to give
me money to rebuild Syria, to put people back to work,
(10:08):
to make sure that people have other sources of revenue,
and on and on, And this is how he goes
about it.
Speaker 8 (10:15):
Maybe the difference between what they say publicly and what
they don't say publicly is how much tides their hands are.
I've heard from golf officials who have been in direct
contact with the Syrians, and then they say that behind
closed doors, the Syrians make very clear that they could
easily stop it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
After the break. Our Western leaders considering concessions to Syria
to reduce the flow of captagan Sammy. Is anyone suggesting
that Syria should be granted some concession so they'll cut
(10:56):
down on this trade.
Speaker 8 (10:57):
Yes, big time. Yes, this is what some golf countries
have been advocating. This is what they're asking their European
country partents, especially the Americans, because maybe the biggest concern
for the Serians is sanctions, especially US sanctions US unilateral sanctions.
Officials from Golf states have been lobbying European countries to
(11:21):
make concessions. They say the Europeans should embrace reality and
should recognize the fact on the ground. The reality on
the ground is that Bashar has won the war. He's
not going anywhere, So you have no choice. It's either
you deal with the guy who you don't like, but
you know, this is the only way you can solve
that kind of problem, including terrorism and captagon, or you know,
(11:42):
you pretend that you will stick to your policy, which
is leading nowhere. You know. An interesting aspect of that
conversation is that the Europeans are divided. They don't have
necessarily the same views. A country like Italy would be
keen on somehow it's policy, but they understand that it
(12:03):
could be more constructive to try and build bridges, to
try to find some common ground on a variety of issues,
especially when it comes to refugees or keptical because obviously
Italy is closer to the eastern part of euro so
they're geographically closer to the problem. On the other hand,
you have the hardliners like Germany or France, especially France.
(12:26):
Macron made very clear that France's line on Syria will
not going to change. So zero code like zero recognition
and zero concession. I think one of the reasons that
helped explain, you know, the reluctance of countries like France
and Germany is that they basically said that these efforts
to somehow moderate these authoritarian leaders never works, just a
(12:50):
waste of time and energy. And they often cite as
an example Bashar himself, you know, not so long ago
in two thousand and eight, if I'm not mistaken, but
Shark to Paris. You know, back then France was trying
to extend another branch to Syria. So Bashark came to
Paris a very nice visit. They red carpet him, and
(13:13):
then they did the same with Walmar Kadaffi from Libya,
and all they got was more repression, violence, human rights violations.
And so the conclusion is that it never works.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
What has the US response been to these ideas of
giving into some of Asad's demands.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
The US have made very clear that they're not willing
to make any concession to the Asad regime, and I
think sanctions that have been approved in the US make
that very clear. There is no room for any sort
of concession.
Speaker 7 (13:50):
Earlier this year, when the Arab States were discussing readmitting
Seria to the Arab League, the US was telling them, fine,
but you have to get something in return. I mean,
you have to get prisoner releases, a real engagement by
the regime in the UN led efforts to end the
(14:10):
conflict and to launch a credible political process. We have
to see concrete moves by the regime. So the US
was always telling the Arab States, you can normalize ties
with him, you can bring him back to the Arab League,
but you have to get something out of him first.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Sammy, Given how complicated this is, where do you see
it going from here?
Speaker 8 (14:33):
It's very difficult to tell. I don't see Europe changing
its stance in the foreseeable future. I'm not sure Arab
and Gulf country will take any benefits from reintegrating asad
to the Arab League. He's not really addressing the Capta
gun flows. And even when it comes to the economy
(14:56):
to business perspective, this is a country in ruins. Know
this has been completely destroyed by war. The economy has
collapsed to the Syrian currency is the way, there's a
fraction of what it was until a few years ago.
So even when it comes to investment, how can you
possibly invest in a country that is under such heavy sanctions.
(15:19):
So this is also you know, part of the conversations
that countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia that do
have a lot of cash, that have big funds that
could potentially be used to invest in Syria, but it's
just not going to happen. How can you invest in
a country where you know, sanctions are so so harsh.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So what tools, if any, do other nations have to
stop or reduce the flow of captagon before it becomes
out of control.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
I think if Iran switched its position. I think if
Iran decided to take a less soft stence on Syria,
that they could be change because Iran has been not
only a political supporter or a political backer of ASAB,
but also a key support when it comes to, you know,
(16:10):
the security apparatus. And also maybe Russia. Russia is still
a key factor in any conversation involving Syria. But at
this point it's very hard to see any reason why
Syria would change its course. There's a real risk of
seeing a Narco state so close to Europe.
Speaker 7 (16:32):
From the point of view of the Syrian opposition, they're
pleading their case with the West and Arab states the
following way. They're telling them, you're not going to get
anything out of this regime. The only solution is to
help us affect change in Syria. I mean, they're not
saying launch a military operation to topple us out, but
(16:52):
somehow help us launch a credible political process that would
change the system in Syria, bringing a new form of
governance in Syria, and eventually ease Assad out.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Sam Sammy, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 8 (17:09):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
When we come back, what are the US and its
allies doing to halt the Captigan trade. We've talked about
what the illicit Captagan trade means for Gulf countries and Europe.
Let's not take a closer look at what the US
(17:33):
is doing about it. Caroline Rose is the director of
the Captigan Trade Project at the New Lines Institute, that's
a think tank here in Washington. Caroline, Captagan is obviously
a top concern in Europe and other parts of the world,
but it hasn't quite reached the US yet. How concerned
are policy makers lawmakers about it eventually crossing the ocean
(17:58):
and coming to the US.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
I think that we're a long time out from seeing
Captagon hit US markets. I don't think it's quite yet
something that would be competitive. That being said, I think
that recently we've started to see a huge uptick and
concern over Captigon reaching European markets as well as markets
(18:22):
in Africa, and over the last year or so we've
started to see some pretty clear signals that Captigon is
beginning to carve out not only transit routes but potential
consumption markets in these areas. For example, this past July
we not only found a warehouse in Bavaria in Germany,
(18:42):
but also a laboratory, which shows that these networks are
starting to dig their heels in and really settle and
create embedded networks in the European continent.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
How much of the effort to stop Captagon is about
other nations relationships with Syria and with Asad.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Ever, since the Syrian Civil War broke out and the
Ystad regime imposed atrocious crimes against humanity against their own citizens,
Syria for the large part has been iced out, pushed
out of the diplomatic Forum, and because of that it
has not been able to participate in the Arab League
if with many countries it's not allowed to have an
(19:24):
embassy in their capital city, and many countries don't even
engage in high level phone calls with officials. Most recently
there's also been sanctions on suspected traffickers of the captaicone
trade as well, which has also had quite an economic
impact in the country. But recently, after a very devastating
(19:45):
earthquake in southern Turkey in northern Syria, a lot of
countries that were toying and experimenting with the idea of
normalization have sought kind of this window of opportunity and
have started to race to achieve normalization with the Syria
in regime. Really, the definition of what normalization would look
like would be the resumption of diplomatic ties. During these
(20:07):
normalization discussions we saw in the spring there was a
surge in bilateral calls and meetings and discussions about bringing
Syria back into the Arab League, and Captigon was one
of the most prominent discussion items. Why I think there
is a genuine wish and a genuine aim and objective
to improve counter narcotic capabilities, but ultimately this really was
(20:32):
the low hanging fruit for many of these countries in
order to even tackle these more sensitive and more difficult
agenda items such as the patriation and a political settlement.
They believe that captigone a trade that not many people
know about, a trade where they perceived the regime as
having leverage and agency over this would be something that
(20:54):
they could convince the regime to make progress on and
exchange for getting an building momentum to get to the
more difficult agenda items. How that's worked out, I don't
think it's necessarily played out the way that regional countries
have helped for especially this past May. In this past April,
we're still seeing captagon seized regularly along the Jordanian and
(21:18):
Syrian border. In Saudi Arabia, they're continuing seizures, especially of
shipments that seem and appear to be coming from Syria
or Lebanon. So this has really in no way been
able to stem the flow of captagon. And while the
Syrian regime has been able to seize a few things
here and there as kind of this confidence building measure,
(21:41):
really the flow of the trade has not significantly been reduced.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
What kind of pressure, if any, is the US bringing
to bear when it comes to Captigon itself.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
So this past March, the US Department of State and
Department of Treasury they impose joint sanctions with the UK's
Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office the FCDO.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Today, the United States took action and coordination with the
United Kingdom to designate key individuals supporting the regime of
Syrian President Bashar al Asad and the production or export
in Syria and Lebanon of a dangerous amphetamine type stimulant
known as Captagon.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
And they announced those sanctions on March twenty eighth.
Speaker 8 (22:25):
It was a.
Speaker 6 (22:25):
Series of sanctions on individuals as well as some commercial
entities that were highly suspected of involvement in the kaptagon trade,
whether production or trafficking. The EU followed very shortly after
in April and also impose their own sanctions as well.
And what this does effectively imposes kind of this travel band,
(22:48):
so a lot of these individuals will never be really
allowed to travel to the EU, to the United States,
the UK. It also of course imposes a freeze on
their assets and really does try and make it very
difficult for any company that has relations with these three
governments to do commercial business with these individuals and these
(23:10):
commercial entities.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Has that had any real world effect as you describe it,
at the Captigan flows seems to be going on unabated.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
They certainly do have an effect in the sense of
they have imposed a degree of accountability on these actors.
It shows to the Syrian government and it demonstrates to
the region that the United States, the UK, and the
EU are quite serious and are closely monitoring this issue,
which a few years ago, really I don't necessarily think
that we could have said that Kapta Gond still is
(23:42):
a niche issue. But back in twenty eighteen twenty seventeen,
when we started to see a huge uptick in the trade,
the United States didn't quite have a strategy on that.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Another thing we saw last year was the US Congress
passed the Captigon Act. Can you tell us what that
is in Is it a serious piece of legislation or
is it just more like a signaling device.
Speaker 6 (24:05):
So I think that the Captagon Act, which was an
amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act, really did have
a lot of teeth and concrete measures in the sense
that it required the United States government to have an
interagency strategy specifically about Captigon related to Syria, of course,
and you know, the Syria team over at State Department
(24:27):
had a lot of agency over this, but it required
an interagency conversation regularly between the United States Department of State, Treasury,
Department of Defense, and intelligence agencies to share what they
know and to try and get as much information as
possible to start monitoring seriously the Captagon trade as it
(24:48):
relates to Syria, but also as it relates to the
region and to the security of its partners. We saw
the US State Department release that report and release that
strategy this past June, essentially communicating what they've been able
to do, what they've been up to in terms of
improving counter and narcotics in addiction capacity, but also of
(25:10):
course coordinating with partners, keeping pressure against the Syrian regime
and against of course the greater tide of normalization. And
so you know, really I think that there's a lot
more momentum with the strategy, and we're starting to see
that as you know, these discussions over Captigon evolve, and.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Are we seeing bipartisan support for this issue.
Speaker 6 (25:30):
Yes, So I believe that you know, back when six
five four to two the amendment was passed that was
sponsored by both french Hill, who is a Republican in
the House of Representatives, but also Brendan Boyle.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
My friends, this is why this bill is so critical
and important at this time. We need an all of
government approach to addressing Assad's regime of drug production and trafficking.
Captagon has already reached Europe and it's only a matter
of time before it reaches our shores.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
And recently there is a new piece of Captigon related
legislation that was proposed again by french Hill, Republican, but
then also by Democratic Representative Jared Moskowitz.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Caroline, where do you think things head from here? It
seems like a bit of an intractable problem.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
It's going to be very difficult to completely quelsh the
Captagon trade. I think it's also extremely important that we
don't evolve into a whackable strategy of trying to go
after directly only the kingpins without looking at the production process,
or the precursors or even the demand side of the
(26:45):
Captagon challenge. So I think it's going to have to
involve a very comprehensive approach from the United States and
its partners as well as regional countries. When looking at
this problem set, the captagon trade is going to expands
most certainly geographically into Europe to Africa as well, particularly
(27:06):
Sub Saharan Africa and Northern Africa, where we're already starting
to see storage facilities and low level demand. And that
is going to be a greater challenge and a challenge
that goes beyond the issue of Syria, but rather it's
going to be kind of a trans regional illicit economy
that will pose both security challenges but also of course
(27:28):
long term health challenges.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Caroline, thanks so much for speaking with me.
Speaker 6 (27:34):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take.
It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more
shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you.
Email us questions or comments dot Big Take at Bloomberg
dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is
Vicky Ergolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Federica Romanello
(28:01):
is our producer. Our associate producer is zenob Sidiki Raphael
mcili is our engineer. Our original music was composed by
Leo Sidrin. I'm West Kosova. We'll be back on Monday
with another big take. Have a great weekend.
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