January 28, 2025 • 33 mins
Chrystia Freeland sent shockwaves through Canada when she resigned as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Finance Minister in December. Her public resignation letter blasted Trudeau for not doing enough to prepare for the second Trump administration. Now, she’s running to replace him.
Freeland sat down with Big Take host David Gura in Toronto on Tuesday to discuss her views on US-Canada trade, and how she says she would negotiate with Trump if she becomes Canada’s next leader.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Christia Freeland, Canada's former finance minister and deputy Prime Minister,
sent shockwaves around the world when she stepped down from
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's cabinet in December. She had been
seen as one of Trudeau's closest allies. In the way
that she resigned as shaking the government to its core.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Why did she do this?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
She was his most powerful minister. In a fiery resignation letter,
Freeland blasted Trudeau for not doing enough to prepare for
the challenges of a second Trump term. Her resignation set
in motion a series of events that culminated in a
new leadership election. Trudeau is stepping down after nine years
in office. Now Freeland is running to replace him to
(00:48):
be the next leader of the Liberal Party, and her
pitch to Canadians is there is no candidate better equipped
to deal with Donald Trump, who was threatened to impose
a twenty five percent tariff on Canadian goods on feb first.
I sat down with Freeland on Tuesday in Toronto for
an exclusive interview.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Today for Canada, the most significant economic fact and reality
is that Donald Trump is president with a plan to
change the world, and we don't need to be afraid
of that. We need to have a plan to deal
with it, and we need to recognize the magnitude of
the challenge.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm David Gerra, and this is the Big Take from
Bloomberg News Today. On the show, my interview with Christia Freeland,
Canada's former finance minister, who's calling for a proactive response
to Trump's proposed tariffs, and she makes her case to
be Canada's next leader. We talk about Trump's second term
and what she sees on the horizon for one of
the US's closest allies. This interview has been lightly edited
(01:57):
and condensed for clarity. The full interview is available on
Bloomberg dot com and on the Bloomberg Terminal. Thank you
very much for doing this, appreciated.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
It is great to be with you, David. Thank you
for coming to Toronto. I hope you're not freezing today.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
It was very cold. The wind was fierce last night
when we got here.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
That's why Canadians are so tough. That winter trains us.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Let's get right to it and if President Trump follows
through on this threat to impose twenty five percent tariff
across the board on Canadian goods. How should Canada respond?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, I think we should start responding today. I think
that we should publish for consultation a retaliation list. I
think it should be massive, right, it should be two
hundred billion. That's not saying that we retaliate at two
hundred billion, but giving us like a menu, like a
s'morgus board of choices. And we need to publish it
(02:51):
now because when President Trump says America first, I believe him,
and I believe that he doesn't care that much if
Canadian politicians are jumping around banging our fists on the table,
et cetera. But he cares about Americans. And I want
Wisconsin dairy farmers to see themselves on that list and
(03:12):
to be calling the White House and to be saying,
mister President, we elected you, but now it's going to
be terrible. We're not going to be able to sell
stuff to Canada. I want Michigan blue collar workers who
make washing machines in Michigan to see their washing machines
on the list and to call at the White House
and say, mister President, what the heck here? We love
(03:33):
selling stuff to Canada.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Do not do this.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And the thing that I think can sometimes be missed.
I think, if you will permit me, David, to put
myself in the mind of Americans, I think you guys
don't think about Canada very much. I think when you
think about Canada, maybe you think about hockey. Maybe you
think we're quite nice and we say please and thank you,
and probably true, probably we say sorry a little more
(03:59):
than you guys would. And I just don't think you
think of us as major players, and that is fine
with us. But what you miss in that calculation about
Canada is uniquely in the whole world, we have economic
leverage over you. You guys are not a big trading nation,
(04:24):
but insofar as you export stuff, you sell it to
your Canadian pals. We are a larger market for the
United States than China, Japan, the UK, and France combined.
So actually we do matter for you. And one thing
that I love about Americans is you guys have a
(04:46):
true entrepreneurial spirit and commercial spirit. You are the guys
who say the customer is always right. Well, guess what,
We're your main customer.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
A criticism I hear of your approach is by doing this,
by up with that menu or that long list. You're
going to further raise the hackles of President Trump. You're
kind of putting more of a target on your back.
What do you say to those critics? Who are you?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Then? You know? I have a lot of respect for
President Trump. I think he has been throughout his career underestimated.
I think he is a really smart guy. And one
of the things that I've observed is I think he's
going to be smarter in this administration than he was
(05:31):
in the first one. Someone I have good relations This
may surprise you, David, with a lot of people close
to the president. One of them actually was in my
house here in Toronto for supper a few weeks. Again,
this is I'm not going to tell you, no cars,
I'm not going to tell you he won't come back
for supper, right, But he said, you know, the President
has spent since the election weeks and weeks and weeks
(05:52):
hanging out with really smart people, and he has some
really good and clear ideas. So I take the President
very very seriously as a smart guy actually with a
clear worldview. I also observe his negotiating style and what
I observe, which I think everybody sees is this is
(06:15):
not a guy for whom weakness is attractive. I would
say for President Trump, weakness is a provocation. I think
capitulation is not a negotiating strategy with him. This person
close to the President said to me, this was before
the inauguration. He said, Trump thinks it's just great. He's
(06:37):
going around yelling at the world, threatening the world, and
countries are just tripping over themselves to like preconcede. They're
negotiating with themselves. He's not even president, and they're offering
him a million things. And the President, quite rightly, by
the way, thinks this is great. He hasn't done a
single thing and the world is tripping over itself to
(07:00):
give him stuff. Now, I truly believe that Canada and
the United States today have a really fabulous mutually beneficial
win win productive relationship, and I think we need to
and should have that in the future. But I think
the way you get there generally in life, but particularly
(07:24):
with this president is to say to him, you know what, really,
pushing us around is not a good idea.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Can I ask you what maybe a dumb sounding question,
and that.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Is there are no dumb questions, thank you?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What does President Trump want here? We are just a
few days away from this February first deadline that he's
put in place. He's talked a lot about traffic of drugs,
He's talked about immigration. Do you have a clear sense
of what would have to happen for him to forego
putting those tariffs in place?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I am not going to presume to know what President
Trump wants. I think that that is up to him
and the very smart people around around him to say.
But based on past behavior, based on what we're seeing,
I think President Trump is seeking to accomplish three things.
(08:13):
First of all, he would just like Canada to negotiate
with itself as much as possible, and he'd like us
to anti up tons of stuff. So that's number one.
I think Number two, what President Trump is trying to do,
quite intentionally is create uncertainty for investors in every country
(08:34):
other than the United States. He wants to make investors
when they're thinking about where do you put that the
next dollar, to think we have no idea what President
Trump is going to do. We know he wants us
to invest in the US. We don't know what he's
going to do to any other country. So what the heck,
let's put our money in the United States, And that
(08:56):
is not a dumb strategy, right, you know, just by
saying a few things on social media, you automatically suck
capital into the United States. I think the third thing
that the President wants to do is uncle je Les
as we would say here, And I think that as
(09:18):
Canadians we think about Canada US very much. But I
know Americans, you guys don't wake up in the morning
and think, hey, how's our relationship with the Canadians going?
And President Trump, I do think, has clearly elaborated and
sophisticated worldview of what he wants to do, and it
(09:38):
seems pretty clear to me that he has come to
the conclusion that if he can show the rest of
the world how mean and tough he can be with
his closest partners and allies, how much he's prepared to
beat up on those really nice Canadians who throughout history
(09:58):
have been great partners for the US. How do you
think that's going to make the Chinese feel? So I
think there's that calculation as well, But I do want
to offer a positive opportunity that I think is in
the President's mind as well. Maybe two positive opportunities to
positive exit ramps. The first one is I do think
(10:22):
the President is very concerned about US security security for
the USA economic security, but also national security, and in
that context, kind of locking down your neighbors, locking down
your continent makes a lot of sense. Locking down your
(10:44):
continent by saying, hey, Canadians be the fifty first state.
I really want to assure you, my American friends and neighbors,
it's not going to work. That is going to get
our hackles up, and we're going to say a stronger
no than you might ever imagine. But locking down your
security by saying hey, Canada, let's work together on continental
(11:10):
economic and physical security, You're going to find everyone in
Canada saying yeah, we'll sign up to that. And then
I think there's a second exit ramp, a second win
win scenario that I believe Scott Bessen's confirmation as Secretary
of the Treasury really opens up for the US and
(11:35):
for Canada. Scott Bessant is an incredibly sophisticated global economic thinker.
He is a man who has a very well worked
out view of the global macro, not just environment, but
(11:58):
the global macro system. And he is someone who's spent
his career thinking about moments when that system changes. In fact,
you could say that his investing strategy has been figure
out where the imbalances are and invest there. The fact
is the global economy today is run based on the
(12:20):
US consumer. It is run based on incredibly strong US
domestic demand. And what that is requiring is that you
guys run just like eye popping fiscal deficits which at
a certain point surely are going to become unsustainable. In
the meantime, China has been running notwithstanding frequent protestations. This
(12:47):
is going to change an economic system that is based
on selling stuff to the world and not having strong
domestic demand, and China over and over again promises and
fails to have strong domestic demand in China. I think
it is entirely possible that the historic role that Scott
(13:08):
Bessant has signed up for is to be the guy
who writes those global financial and trade imbalances a kind
of Plaza Accords for our time. And Canada can be
a valuable and intelligent partner for the US in the
(13:30):
effort to rebalance the global economy. But we can't do
it if you keep beating up on us. And like
slapping us in the face.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Coming up. Christia Freeland on her decision to resign from
Prime Minister Trudeau's cabinet and how her views on tax
policy have changed since President Trump won a second term.
Do you feel that Canadians understand the gravity of this moment?
You certainly know this Prime minister well, I've worked with
them closely, and I wonder if you think that he
(14:02):
and the government now is prepared to take the kind
of hardline approach that you're advocating for here in the
context of this campaign. Is you were read that the
government is approaching with kind of a commensurate level of seriousness,
and I guess aggressiveness might be the word.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I am absolutely certain that Canadians understand how serious this is.
Like I've been traveling around the country a lot. As
you may have heard, we have a campaign for the
leadership of the Liberal Party right now, So I've been
traveling around a lot, and everywhere I go people come
up to me on the street in you know, malls,
(14:39):
on airplanes and airports, and the first thing every single
person says is what are we going to do with
President Trump? Be sure to tell them Canada is not
for sale. Our sovereignty is not negotiable. You're going to
see us saying, guys, we actually like you, let's keep
a good thing going. But I think you're going to
see a very very deep Canadian commitment to saying we
(15:06):
are Canadian and we are not going to sacrifice one
millimeter of our sovereignty, including our economic sovereignty.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So that's the Canadian side rit large. How about the
government's position. How do you feel like they're approaching this
and is it sufficient enough in terms of it's aggressive
this in the face of the threat from President Trump.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What I'm trying to do now that I'm a leadership
candidate and not in the government, is I would say,
help to stiffen the national spine. And I've been laying
out some very clear negotiating ideas that we need to
put forward and I'm glad when I see them adopted
by the government. I do have to say the premiers
(15:48):
are playing a really important role. I'm in touch with
many of them and that has been a very important
part of Team Canada. And I also want to give
a shout out to labor leaders and business leaders.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I want to ask you about the letter that you
wrote resigning from your post. It had this kind of
seismic effect, certainly within your party and government. We felt
it in the States as well.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
That's rare for Canadian political event, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Did you know at the time it was going to
have that kind of seismic effect that it did?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Oh? Absolutely not. No. I mean when I wrote my
letter and published it, that was on a Monday, I
assumed that on the Tuesday, Mark Kearney would be sworn
in as Finance Minister, and I think that's what the
Prime Minister assumed to.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Something that was in that letter was an impression that
you need to do more to keep your fiscal powder dry.
As you look back on the last two fiscal years,
do you regret not doing more to kind of shore
up the fiscal position of this country.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Well, as you know David visiting US from the United States,
Canada is in an outstanding fiscal position compared to you guys.
I mean, you guys are looking at deficits seven plus.
We're looking at a deficit one in a bit and
we have a triple A credit rating. Our debt to
GDP ratio is the lowest in the G seven, hugely
(17:05):
lower than yours. So the fundamental fiscal position of Canada
is strong. What I did believe in the fall, and
this conviction became stronger first with President Trump's selection and
then with his twenty five percent tariff threat, was that
we had to as a country turn all of our
(17:29):
attention to that threat. We had to recognize that President
Trump was not just blustering. I'm one of the people
who takes him very seriously and sees him as a
very smart guy who has a thought out plan. That
(17:49):
is what I saw then, that is what I see now,
and so it was very clear to me that as
a government, you know, it had to be like heart
and nerve and sinew like. Everything had to be focused
on that and writing checks that would cost US six
billion dollars as this you know train was coming down
(18:11):
the track, to me, was irresponsible.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You vote Mark harneyam Minette Ago and he's committed to
bouncing the budget. I guess with running small deficits from
time to time, are you prepared to also call for
bounce budgets? And if so, on what timeline.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I believe that we need to be fiscally responsible. Absolutely.
I believe that Canada's triple A credit rating is absolutely
essential when it comes to you know where our fiscal
position is. Let's see what happens on February first, because
and in the weeks to come. I do think when
(18:48):
we talk about the impact of tariffs on Canada, I
am medium term, one thousand percent, one million percent, a
google percent confident that Canada will that Canadians will stand
up for Canada, that we will get through this, and
we will get to a win win position with the US.
(19:09):
To me, that is absolutely clear, because that's what the
economic fundamentals say. But I am also not naive about
how hard it's going to be along the way. This
is going to be a very challenging economic situation for US.
Tariffs will bring in revenues for sure, our counter tariffs
(19:29):
will our retaliatory tariffs, and we need to use that
money to support Canadian families, to support Canadian businesses, but
it will be also an economic hit to Canada, and
so I think we need to see where that goes
before committing to any specific targets.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I have a couple of questions about revenues, and the
first has to do with the capital gains tax height
that you introduced and supported. You've since come back on that.
It's not something that you support putting in place now.
I gather because of the context we're in, Donald Trum
being re elected. The place gather christ Tariff's part of
that was raising revenue. I gathered nineteen billion Canadian dollars
over five years. How do you replace that if that
(20:10):
doesn't come to pass.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
As I said about my views during the fall, I
take President Trump really seriously, and I do believe we
need to be building our policies given that new reality.
I think as Canadians, by the way, we need to
see some real opportunities in that new reality. So you know,
there are some sort of hoary old chestnuts of Canadian
(20:35):
public policy stuff that we all kind of know would
be a good idea to do, but it's just so hard.
So if you were a Canadian journalist, you would know
inter provincial trade the holy grail of every single Canadian
public policy thinker. Very easy to say it's a good idea,
hard to do it to say a period, and easy
(20:59):
to get the idea right. Like if another country is
threatening trade measures against us, maybe a good place to
start is, let's trade with each other for goodness sake.
And so I think now, in the face of the
US threat, it's a great opportunity to do that, and
I think you're really seeing some national will around that.
(21:21):
I think it's a great opportunity to say, guys, we
have to stop getting in our own way. We have
to make it easier to build stuff fast in Canada.
We have to cut red tape and get big projects
built because we're going to need it. So I do
want to be clear that there are some opportunities, and
(21:41):
you know, in terms of where are we going to
find revenue. I'm not unveiling all of my platform here
today with you, David, even though I am enjoying the
conversation immensely, but we have some really good ideas that
I look forward to sharing with Canadians.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
There's a fiscal question about your out face on that
particular tax. I think there's a larger question about the
way that you advocated for it in months past, so
you kind of couched it in moral terms. You had
a message to the wealthiest people in this country that
this was something that they had to do on moral grounds.
There shouldn't be hungry kids going to school. For instance.
For somebody who listened to you talking about it in
(22:19):
that way and sees you moving away from it. What
do you say if they question your kind of commitment
to political principle because.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Of that, Income inequality and what Canadians might call a
just society, a society where we take care of each other,
has been a kind of central principle of my life
and my thinking since I became a sentient human truly.
(22:47):
Like I come from a small town in northern Alberta.
It's really really cold. You're cold in Toronto today it
gets down to forty below regularly in the winter. And
Peace Country they are frontiersman. My family were pioneers, very
proud of that, very tough, very entrepreneurial. But like the
(23:09):
patron saint of the Peace Country, what people said about
him was he was every man's friend and he never
locked his cabin door. And that is a very powerful
thing that I've known since I remember knowing words. And
I do think we have to take care of each other.
I wrote a book about income inequality and sort of
the rise of this global plutocracy and the hollowing out
(23:31):
of the middle class before I entered politics. I'm really
proud of the things we did. I did in government
to push against it. The Canada Child Benefit a huge
measure that has lifted Canadian families, Canadian children out of poverty.
(23:52):
I also know that today for Canada, the most significant
econ fact and reality is that Donald Trump is president
with a plan to change the world. And we don't
need to be afraid of that. We need to have
a plan to deal with it, and we need to
(24:12):
recognize the magnitude of the challenge. You know, John Maynard
Kines had this great line, when the facts change, I
change my mind, sir, what do you do? And the
difference between a United States with Joe Biden or Kamala
Harris as president, both of them intended to raise the
capital gains rate, versus a Donald Trump as president is
(24:34):
huge for Canada. You know, we started off in the
conversation talking about one of my core understandings about Donald Trump,
and that is that one of his objectives is take
all the world's money. You heard that in the Davos speech, right,
He was like, guys, investor money in Canada. In the
(24:55):
United States, it'll be great. Invest your money outside the
United States, it will be terrible. So he wants to
suck in all the world's investment. He wants to suck
an investment by Canadian businesses, and for Canadians it's the
easiest thing in the world to invest in the United States.
So we right now have to fight. We have to
(25:16):
fight for Canadian jobs, we have to fight for Canadian businesses,
we have to fight for Canadian investment. And that does
mean we have to change our policies. And I do
that without any apology whatsoever. I do that because we
have to put the national interest first.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Coming up more of my exclusive interview with Christia Freeland.
She talks about the importance of this moment for the
Liberal Party and for Canada itself. Wrapping up here, let
me ask you about the Liberal Party today and what
it's going through, what this campaign represents. And I guess
(25:58):
I'm bringing my bias to the table here. Thinking about
what's happening within the Democratic Party in the United States
after this election is a fair parallel as they think
about who their base of support is, who they represent,
how big a tent they have. Are you and you
were party going through something similar similar undulations.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
That is such an interesting question. You're the first person
who's asked me that question, and I'm glad you have,
because I think about it a lot, and I do
think for us as a party, having this leadership race
is incredibly healthy. We are seeing a surge of new
memberships in the Liberal Party, we are seeing a surge
(26:36):
of interest. We're having conversations that we haven't had before.
One of the things that I really believe we need
to do, and I'll leave it to you to judge
and your listeners whether Americans need to do it too,
is where I think the Right has been effective in
(26:58):
recent months and years is in finding ways to connect
with its own grassroots supporters, in finding ways to make
regular people feel that they were being listened to and
that they were driving what the policies would be. I
(27:19):
would say that our party had become less effective at that.
I think inside our party we had allowed the grassroots
to atrophy. As a government, we functioned in a very
kind of star system, one man band, decisions taken right
(27:43):
at that apex and flowing down. And that's not good
for democracy. And you know, if I've been spending a
lot of my time meeting with grassroots Liberal supporters and
with Canadians who you might describe as liberal cure and
the hardcore liberal supporters. What I've heard them say is
(28:04):
if the only time you talk to us is when
you want us to write a check or knock on
a door or put up a lawn sign, don't be
surprised if we're disengaged. So I see this moment, certainly
for us here in the political center in Canada, in
the Liberal Party, as an opportunity to, with a huge
(28:27):
amount of energy and conviction, reinvent how we are working
as a party, to really listen to Canadians, to listen
to Liberals, to say to them you're the boss. You're
the boss of the party, and to Canadians, you're the
boss of the government. And these are kind of words
(28:49):
that are easy to say. I think it's important to
put in structures that make that the case, and so
last week I put forward some very specifics on reform
of our party. One of them, maybe the most important one,
is you know, I don't know about you, David, but
(29:10):
a way to understand who your boss is is to
know who has the ability to fire you. And so
what I have promised is if I am chosen as leader,
one of the very first things I will do is
say to the party membership, I want you to come
up with a mechanism for a leadership review. I want
(29:32):
you to have the right and the tools to fire me,
and I can assure you when we give Liberal Party
members that authority and that power, you will have a
Liberal leader who is much much more responsive to the
grassroots of the party. And you will have a stronger
(29:52):
and better party. And you know what, you will make
Canadian democracy better.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Could term limits have solved this problem? Clearly that was
something that was preventing the party from thinking about who
would come next and when.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
We are a strong and vibrant parliamentary democracy. And I
don't think grafting features from a US presidential system onto
our own is really good idea. But no, no, but no.
But where I think you're driving at I agree with,
which is the leader cannot be the person who decides
(30:26):
whether she or he continues in that role. We need
to be sure the grassroots have much more authority than
they have today. I think we need to be sure
that caucus members have much more authority than they have today,
which is how parliamentary democracies in the Westminster system work
in other countries. So, and I do absolutely believe that
(30:50):
it was wrong for the leader alone to be the
person who decided whether he continued in government.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Last question, how determined are these next few weeks going
to be for Canada? Yes, in the context of this campaign,
but as we're facing this, this very first deadline. In
your letter you talked about the gravity of the moment,
how do you see it in the context of history?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Huge? You know, I think we are at a hinge
moment for Canada and also for the world. I think
this is a time when you know that period we
had that remember the end of history? Do you remember
that the end of history is now ended? And I
(31:34):
would say even that rules based international order that we
built so painstaking me after the Second World War, I
think that is being shaken up. The kind of peak
globalization we had with China's entry to the WTO, that
is being shaken up. So, you know, the tectonic plates
(31:54):
of the global political system and the global economy are
shifting right now, and that matters for Canada. And at heart,
the reason that I am running to be leader of
the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister of Canada is
I have a plan for how Canada cannot just survive
(32:16):
this shifting of the plates. But absolutely thrive as these
plates shift, thrive because the things we do at home,
but also thrive because I have a real vision of
how this reordering can happen in ways that are good
(32:37):
for Canada and good for the United States. And I
know that that is something we can work on together.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Thank you very much, Thank you. This is the Big
Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gurra. This episode was
produced by Julia Press and David Fox. It was edited
by David Derek d Cluet, Aaron Edwards, and our senior
producer Naomi Shaven. It was mixed and sound designed by
Alex Sagura and fact checked by Adriana Tapia. Our senior
(33:08):
editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is Nicole Beemster Boor.
Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. If you liked
this episode, make sure to subscribe and review The Big
Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps people find
the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Christia Freeland, Canada's former finance minister and deputy Prime Minister,
sent shockwaves around the world when she stepped down from
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's cabinet in December. She had been
seen as one of Trudeau's closest allies. In the way
that she resigned as shaking the government to its core.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Why did she do this?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
She was his most powerful minister. In a fiery resignation letter,
Freeland blasted Trudeau for not doing enough to prepare for
the challenges of a second Trump term. Her resignation set
in motion a series of events that culminated in a
new leadership election. Trudeau is stepping down after nine years
in office. Now Freeland is running to replace him to
(00:48):
be the next leader of the Liberal Party, and her
pitch to Canadians is there is no candidate better equipped
to deal with Donald Trump, who was threatened to impose
a twenty five percent tariff on Canadian goods on feb first.
I sat down with Freeland on Tuesday in Toronto for
an exclusive interview.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Today for Canada, the most significant economic fact and reality
is that Donald Trump is president with a plan to
change the world, and we don't need to be afraid
of that. We need to have a plan to deal
with it, and we need to recognize the magnitude of
the challenge.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm David Gerra, and this is the Big Take from
Bloomberg News Today. On the show, my interview with Christia Freeland,
Canada's former finance minister, who's calling for a proactive response
to Trump's proposed tariffs, and she makes her case to
be Canada's next leader. We talk about Trump's second term
and what she sees on the horizon for one of
the US's closest allies. This interview has been lightly edited
(01:57):
and condensed for clarity. The full interview is available on
Bloomberg dot com and on the Bloomberg Terminal. Thank you
very much for doing this, appreciated.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
It is great to be with you, David. Thank you
for coming to Toronto. I hope you're not freezing today.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
It was very cold. The wind was fierce last night
when we got here.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
That's why Canadians are so tough. That winter trains us.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Let's get right to it and if President Trump follows
through on this threat to impose twenty five percent tariff
across the board on Canadian goods. How should Canada respond?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, I think we should start responding today. I think
that we should publish for consultation a retaliation list. I
think it should be massive, right, it should be two
hundred billion. That's not saying that we retaliate at two
hundred billion, but giving us like a menu, like a
s'morgus board of choices. And we need to publish it
(02:51):
now because when President Trump says America first, I believe him,
and I believe that he doesn't care that much if
Canadian politicians are jumping around banging our fists on the table,
et cetera. But he cares about Americans. And I want
Wisconsin dairy farmers to see themselves on that list and
(03:12):
to be calling the White House and to be saying,
mister President, we elected you, but now it's going to
be terrible. We're not going to be able to sell
stuff to Canada. I want Michigan blue collar workers who
make washing machines in Michigan to see their washing machines
on the list and to call at the White House
and say, mister President, what the heck here? We love
(03:33):
selling stuff to Canada.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Do not do this.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And the thing that I think can sometimes be missed.
I think, if you will permit me, David, to put
myself in the mind of Americans, I think you guys
don't think about Canada very much. I think when you
think about Canada, maybe you think about hockey. Maybe you
think we're quite nice and we say please and thank you,
and probably true, probably we say sorry a little more
(03:59):
than you guys would. And I just don't think you
think of us as major players, and that is fine
with us. But what you miss in that calculation about
Canada is uniquely in the whole world, we have economic
leverage over you. You guys are not a big trading nation,
(04:24):
but insofar as you export stuff, you sell it to
your Canadian pals. We are a larger market for the
United States than China, Japan, the UK, and France combined.
So actually we do matter for you. And one thing
that I love about Americans is you guys have a
(04:46):
true entrepreneurial spirit and commercial spirit. You are the guys
who say the customer is always right. Well, guess what,
We're your main customer.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
A criticism I hear of your approach is by doing this,
by up with that menu or that long list. You're
going to further raise the hackles of President Trump. You're
kind of putting more of a target on your back.
What do you say to those critics? Who are you?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Then? You know? I have a lot of respect for
President Trump. I think he has been throughout his career underestimated.
I think he is a really smart guy. And one
of the things that I've observed is I think he's
going to be smarter in this administration than he was
(05:31):
in the first one. Someone I have good relations This
may surprise you, David, with a lot of people close
to the president. One of them actually was in my
house here in Toronto for supper a few weeks. Again,
this is I'm not going to tell you, no cars,
I'm not going to tell you he won't come back
for supper, right, But he said, you know, the President
has spent since the election weeks and weeks and weeks
(05:52):
hanging out with really smart people, and he has some
really good and clear ideas. So I take the President
very very seriously as a smart guy actually with a
clear worldview. I also observe his negotiating style and what
I observe, which I think everybody sees is this is
(06:15):
not a guy for whom weakness is attractive. I would
say for President Trump, weakness is a provocation. I think
capitulation is not a negotiating strategy with him. This person
close to the President said to me, this was before
the inauguration. He said, Trump thinks it's just great. He's
(06:37):
going around yelling at the world, threatening the world, and
countries are just tripping over themselves to like preconcede. They're
negotiating with themselves. He's not even president, and they're offering
him a million things. And the President, quite rightly, by
the way, thinks this is great. He hasn't done a
single thing and the world is tripping over itself to
(07:00):
give him stuff. Now, I truly believe that Canada and
the United States today have a really fabulous mutually beneficial
win win productive relationship, and I think we need to
and should have that in the future. But I think
the way you get there generally in life, but particularly
(07:24):
with this president is to say to him, you know what, really,
pushing us around is not a good idea.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Can I ask you what maybe a dumb sounding question,
and that.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Is there are no dumb questions, thank you?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What does President Trump want here? We are just a
few days away from this February first deadline that he's
put in place. He's talked a lot about traffic of drugs,
He's talked about immigration. Do you have a clear sense
of what would have to happen for him to forego
putting those tariffs in place?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I am not going to presume to know what President
Trump wants. I think that that is up to him
and the very smart people around around him to say.
But based on past behavior, based on what we're seeing,
I think President Trump is seeking to accomplish three things.
(08:13):
First of all, he would just like Canada to negotiate
with itself as much as possible, and he'd like us
to anti up tons of stuff. So that's number one.
I think Number two, what President Trump is trying to do,
quite intentionally is create uncertainty for investors in every country
(08:34):
other than the United States. He wants to make investors
when they're thinking about where do you put that the
next dollar, to think we have no idea what President
Trump is going to do. We know he wants us
to invest in the US. We don't know what he's
going to do to any other country. So what the heck,
let's put our money in the United States, And that
(08:56):
is not a dumb strategy, right, you know, just by
saying a few things on social media, you automatically suck
capital into the United States. I think the third thing
that the President wants to do is uncle je Les
as we would say here, And I think that as
(09:18):
Canadians we think about Canada US very much. But I
know Americans, you guys don't wake up in the morning
and think, hey, how's our relationship with the Canadians going?
And President Trump, I do think, has clearly elaborated and
sophisticated worldview of what he wants to do, and it
(09:38):
seems pretty clear to me that he has come to
the conclusion that if he can show the rest of
the world how mean and tough he can be with
his closest partners and allies, how much he's prepared to
beat up on those really nice Canadians who throughout history
(09:58):
have been great partners for the US. How do you
think that's going to make the Chinese feel? So I
think there's that calculation as well, But I do want
to offer a positive opportunity that I think is in
the President's mind as well. Maybe two positive opportunities to
positive exit ramps. The first one is I do think
(10:22):
the President is very concerned about US security security for
the USA economic security, but also national security, and in
that context, kind of locking down your neighbors, locking down
your continent makes a lot of sense. Locking down your
(10:44):
continent by saying, hey, Canadians be the fifty first state.
I really want to assure you, my American friends and neighbors,
it's not going to work. That is going to get
our hackles up, and we're going to say a stronger
no than you might ever imagine. But locking down your
security by saying hey, Canada, let's work together on continental
(11:10):
economic and physical security, You're going to find everyone in
Canada saying yeah, we'll sign up to that. And then
I think there's a second exit ramp, a second win
win scenario that I believe Scott Bessen's confirmation as Secretary
of the Treasury really opens up for the US and
(11:35):
for Canada. Scott Bessant is an incredibly sophisticated global economic thinker.
He is a man who has a very well worked
out view of the global macro, not just environment, but
(11:58):
the global macro system. And he is someone who's spent
his career thinking about moments when that system changes. In fact,
you could say that his investing strategy has been figure
out where the imbalances are and invest there. The fact
is the global economy today is run based on the
(12:20):
US consumer. It is run based on incredibly strong US
domestic demand. And what that is requiring is that you
guys run just like eye popping fiscal deficits which at
a certain point surely are going to become unsustainable. In
the meantime, China has been running notwithstanding frequent protestations. This
(12:47):
is going to change an economic system that is based
on selling stuff to the world and not having strong
domestic demand, and China over and over again promises and
fails to have strong domestic demand in China. I think
it is entirely possible that the historic role that Scott
(13:08):
Bessant has signed up for is to be the guy
who writes those global financial and trade imbalances a kind
of Plaza Accords for our time. And Canada can be
a valuable and intelligent partner for the US in the
(13:30):
effort to rebalance the global economy. But we can't do
it if you keep beating up on us. And like
slapping us in the face.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Coming up. Christia Freeland on her decision to resign from
Prime Minister Trudeau's cabinet and how her views on tax
policy have changed since President Trump won a second term.
Do you feel that Canadians understand the gravity of this moment?
You certainly know this Prime minister well, I've worked with
them closely, and I wonder if you think that he
(14:02):
and the government now is prepared to take the kind
of hardline approach that you're advocating for here in the
context of this campaign. Is you were read that the
government is approaching with kind of a commensurate level of seriousness,
and I guess aggressiveness might be the word.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I am absolutely certain that Canadians understand how serious this is.
Like I've been traveling around the country a lot. As
you may have heard, we have a campaign for the
leadership of the Liberal Party right now, So I've been
traveling around a lot, and everywhere I go people come
up to me on the street in you know, malls,
(14:39):
on airplanes and airports, and the first thing every single
person says is what are we going to do with
President Trump? Be sure to tell them Canada is not
for sale. Our sovereignty is not negotiable. You're going to
see us saying, guys, we actually like you, let's keep
a good thing going. But I think you're going to
see a very very deep Canadian commitment to saying we
(15:06):
are Canadian and we are not going to sacrifice one
millimeter of our sovereignty, including our economic sovereignty.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So that's the Canadian side rit large. How about the
government's position. How do you feel like they're approaching this
and is it sufficient enough in terms of it's aggressive
this in the face of the threat from President Trump.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What I'm trying to do now that I'm a leadership
candidate and not in the government, is I would say,
help to stiffen the national spine. And I've been laying
out some very clear negotiating ideas that we need to
put forward and I'm glad when I see them adopted
by the government. I do have to say the premiers
(15:48):
are playing a really important role. I'm in touch with
many of them and that has been a very important
part of Team Canada. And I also want to give
a shout out to labor leaders and business leaders.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I want to ask you about the letter that you
wrote resigning from your post. It had this kind of
seismic effect, certainly within your party and government. We felt
it in the States as well.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
That's rare for Canadian political event, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Did you know at the time it was going to
have that kind of seismic effect that it did?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Oh? Absolutely not. No. I mean when I wrote my
letter and published it, that was on a Monday, I
assumed that on the Tuesday, Mark Kearney would be sworn
in as Finance Minister, and I think that's what the
Prime Minister assumed to.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Something that was in that letter was an impression that
you need to do more to keep your fiscal powder dry.
As you look back on the last two fiscal years,
do you regret not doing more to kind of shore
up the fiscal position of this country.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Well, as you know David visiting US from the United States,
Canada is in an outstanding fiscal position compared to you guys.
I mean, you guys are looking at deficits seven plus.
We're looking at a deficit one in a bit and
we have a triple A credit rating. Our debt to
GDP ratio is the lowest in the G seven, hugely
(17:05):
lower than yours. So the fundamental fiscal position of Canada
is strong. What I did believe in the fall, and
this conviction became stronger first with President Trump's selection and
then with his twenty five percent tariff threat, was that
we had to as a country turn all of our
(17:29):
attention to that threat. We had to recognize that President
Trump was not just blustering. I'm one of the people
who takes him very seriously and sees him as a
very smart guy who has a thought out plan. That
(17:49):
is what I saw then, that is what I see now,
and so it was very clear to me that as
a government, you know, it had to be like heart
and nerve and sinew like. Everything had to be focused
on that and writing checks that would cost US six
billion dollars as this you know train was coming down
(18:11):
the track, to me, was irresponsible.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You vote Mark harneyam Minette Ago and he's committed to
bouncing the budget. I guess with running small deficits from
time to time, are you prepared to also call for
bounce budgets? And if so, on what timeline.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I believe that we need to be fiscally responsible. Absolutely.
I believe that Canada's triple A credit rating is absolutely
essential when it comes to you know where our fiscal
position is. Let's see what happens on February first, because
and in the weeks to come. I do think when
(18:48):
we talk about the impact of tariffs on Canada, I
am medium term, one thousand percent, one million percent, a
google percent confident that Canada will that Canadians will stand
up for Canada, that we will get through this, and
we will get to a win win position with the US.
(19:09):
To me, that is absolutely clear, because that's what the
economic fundamentals say. But I am also not naive about
how hard it's going to be along the way. This
is going to be a very challenging economic situation for US.
Tariffs will bring in revenues for sure, our counter tariffs
(19:29):
will our retaliatory tariffs, and we need to use that
money to support Canadian families, to support Canadian businesses, but
it will be also an economic hit to Canada, and
so I think we need to see where that goes
before committing to any specific targets.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I have a couple of questions about revenues, and the
first has to do with the capital gains tax height
that you introduced and supported. You've since come back on that.
It's not something that you support putting in place now.
I gather because of the context we're in, Donald Trum
being re elected. The place gather christ Tariff's part of
that was raising revenue. I gathered nineteen billion Canadian dollars
over five years. How do you replace that if that
(20:10):
doesn't come to pass.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
As I said about my views during the fall, I
take President Trump really seriously, and I do believe we
need to be building our policies given that new reality.
I think as Canadians, by the way, we need to
see some real opportunities in that new reality. So you know,
there are some sort of hoary old chestnuts of Canadian
(20:35):
public policy stuff that we all kind of know would
be a good idea to do, but it's just so hard.
So if you were a Canadian journalist, you would know
inter provincial trade the holy grail of every single Canadian
public policy thinker. Very easy to say it's a good idea,
hard to do it to say a period, and easy
(20:59):
to get the idea right. Like if another country is
threatening trade measures against us, maybe a good place to
start is, let's trade with each other for goodness sake.
And so I think now, in the face of the
US threat, it's a great opportunity to do that, and
I think you're really seeing some national will around that.
(21:21):
I think it's a great opportunity to say, guys, we
have to stop getting in our own way. We have
to make it easier to build stuff fast in Canada.
We have to cut red tape and get big projects
built because we're going to need it. So I do
want to be clear that there are some opportunities, and
(21:41):
you know, in terms of where are we going to
find revenue. I'm not unveiling all of my platform here
today with you, David, even though I am enjoying the
conversation immensely, but we have some really good ideas that
I look forward to sharing with Canadians.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
There's a fiscal question about your out face on that
particular tax. I think there's a larger question about the
way that you advocated for it in months past, so
you kind of couched it in moral terms. You had
a message to the wealthiest people in this country that
this was something that they had to do on moral grounds.
There shouldn't be hungry kids going to school. For instance.
For somebody who listened to you talking about it in
(22:19):
that way and sees you moving away from it. What
do you say if they question your kind of commitment
to political principle because.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Of that, Income inequality and what Canadians might call a
just society, a society where we take care of each other,
has been a kind of central principle of my life
and my thinking since I became a sentient human truly.
(22:47):
Like I come from a small town in northern Alberta.
It's really really cold. You're cold in Toronto today it
gets down to forty below regularly in the winter. And
Peace Country they are frontiersman. My family were pioneers, very
proud of that, very tough, very entrepreneurial. But like the
(23:09):
patron saint of the Peace Country, what people said about
him was he was every man's friend and he never
locked his cabin door. And that is a very powerful
thing that I've known since I remember knowing words. And
I do think we have to take care of each other.
I wrote a book about income inequality and sort of
the rise of this global plutocracy and the hollowing out
(23:31):
of the middle class before I entered politics. I'm really
proud of the things we did. I did in government
to push against it. The Canada Child Benefit a huge
measure that has lifted Canadian families, Canadian children out of poverty.
(23:52):
I also know that today for Canada, the most significant
econ fact and reality is that Donald Trump is president
with a plan to change the world. And we don't
need to be afraid of that. We need to have
a plan to deal with it, and we need to
(24:12):
recognize the magnitude of the challenge. You know, John Maynard
Kines had this great line, when the facts change, I
change my mind, sir, what do you do? And the
difference between a United States with Joe Biden or Kamala
Harris as president, both of them intended to raise the
capital gains rate, versus a Donald Trump as president is
(24:34):
huge for Canada. You know, we started off in the
conversation talking about one of my core understandings about Donald Trump,
and that is that one of his objectives is take
all the world's money. You heard that in the Davos speech, right,
He was like, guys, investor money in Canada. In the
(24:55):
United States, it'll be great. Invest your money outside the
United States, it will be terrible. So he wants to
suck in all the world's investment. He wants to suck
an investment by Canadian businesses, and for Canadians it's the
easiest thing in the world to invest in the United States.
So we right now have to fight. We have to
(25:16):
fight for Canadian jobs, we have to fight for Canadian businesses,
we have to fight for Canadian investment. And that does
mean we have to change our policies. And I do
that without any apology whatsoever. I do that because we
have to put the national interest first.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Coming up more of my exclusive interview with Christia Freeland.
She talks about the importance of this moment for the
Liberal Party and for Canada itself. Wrapping up here, let
me ask you about the Liberal Party today and what
it's going through, what this campaign represents. And I guess
(25:58):
I'm bringing my bias to the table here. Thinking about
what's happening within the Democratic Party in the United States
after this election is a fair parallel as they think
about who their base of support is, who they represent,
how big a tent they have. Are you and you
were party going through something similar similar undulations.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
That is such an interesting question. You're the first person
who's asked me that question, and I'm glad you have,
because I think about it a lot, and I do
think for us as a party, having this leadership race
is incredibly healthy. We are seeing a surge of new
memberships in the Liberal Party, we are seeing a surge
(26:36):
of interest. We're having conversations that we haven't had before.
One of the things that I really believe we need
to do, and I'll leave it to you to judge
and your listeners whether Americans need to do it too,
is where I think the Right has been effective in
(26:58):
recent months and years is in finding ways to connect
with its own grassroots supporters, in finding ways to make
regular people feel that they were being listened to and
that they were driving what the policies would be. I
(27:19):
would say that our party had become less effective at that.
I think inside our party we had allowed the grassroots
to atrophy. As a government, we functioned in a very
kind of star system, one man band, decisions taken right
(27:43):
at that apex and flowing down. And that's not good
for democracy. And you know, if I've been spending a
lot of my time meeting with grassroots Liberal supporters and
with Canadians who you might describe as liberal cure and
the hardcore liberal supporters. What I've heard them say is
(28:04):
if the only time you talk to us is when
you want us to write a check or knock on
a door or put up a lawn sign, don't be
surprised if we're disengaged. So I see this moment, certainly
for us here in the political center in Canada, in
the Liberal Party, as an opportunity to, with a huge
(28:27):
amount of energy and conviction, reinvent how we are working
as a party, to really listen to Canadians, to listen
to Liberals, to say to them you're the boss. You're
the boss of the party, and to Canadians, you're the
boss of the government. And these are kind of words
(28:49):
that are easy to say. I think it's important to
put in structures that make that the case, and so
last week I put forward some very specifics on reform
of our party. One of them, maybe the most important one,
is you know, I don't know about you, David, but
(29:10):
a way to understand who your boss is is to
know who has the ability to fire you. And so
what I have promised is if I am chosen as leader,
one of the very first things I will do is
say to the party membership, I want you to come
up with a mechanism for a leadership review. I want
(29:32):
you to have the right and the tools to fire me,
and I can assure you when we give Liberal Party
members that authority and that power, you will have a
Liberal leader who is much much more responsive to the
grassroots of the party. And you will have a stronger
(29:52):
and better party. And you know what, you will make
Canadian democracy better.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Could term limits have solved this problem? Clearly that was
something that was preventing the party from thinking about who
would come next and when.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
We are a strong and vibrant parliamentary democracy. And I
don't think grafting features from a US presidential system onto
our own is really good idea. But no, no, but no.
But where I think you're driving at I agree with,
which is the leader cannot be the person who decides
(30:26):
whether she or he continues in that role. We need
to be sure the grassroots have much more authority than
they have today. I think we need to be sure
that caucus members have much more authority than they have today,
which is how parliamentary democracies in the Westminster system work
in other countries. So, and I do absolutely believe that
(30:50):
it was wrong for the leader alone to be the
person who decided whether he continued in government.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Last question, how determined are these next few weeks going
to be for Canada? Yes, in the context of this campaign,
but as we're facing this, this very first deadline. In
your letter you talked about the gravity of the moment,
how do you see it in the context of history?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Huge? You know, I think we are at a hinge
moment for Canada and also for the world. I think
this is a time when you know that period we
had that remember the end of history? Do you remember
that the end of history is now ended? And I
(31:34):
would say even that rules based international order that we
built so painstaking me after the Second World War, I
think that is being shaken up. The kind of peak
globalization we had with China's entry to the WTO, that
is being shaken up. So, you know, the tectonic plates
(31:54):
of the global political system and the global economy are
shifting right now, and that matters for Canada. And at heart,
the reason that I am running to be leader of
the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister of Canada is
I have a plan for how Canada cannot just survive
(32:16):
this shifting of the plates. But absolutely thrive as these
plates shift, thrive because the things we do at home,
but also thrive because I have a real vision of
how this reordering can happen in ways that are good
(32:37):
for Canada and good for the United States. And I
know that that is something we can work on together.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Thank you very much, Thank you. This is the Big
Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gurra. This episode was
produced by Julia Press and David Fox. It was edited
by David Derek d Cluet, Aaron Edwards, and our senior
producer Naomi Shaven. It was mixed and sound designed by
Alex Sagura and fact checked by Adriana Tapia. Our senior
(33:08):
editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is Nicole Beemster Boor.
Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. If you liked
this episode, make sure to subscribe and review The Big
Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps people find
the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
Hosts And Creators
Sarah Holder
Saleha Mohsin
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com