December 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Lynsey Addario’s life work means taking great risks to tell other people’s stories. She is a Pulitzer Prize winning war photographer who has been abducted twice while documenting conflicts from Afghanistan to Ukraine and Sudan.
There aren’t many women in her field. In a new National Geographic documentary called “Love+War,” currently streaming on Disney+, she lets us into that world, one she’s made her profession for three decades. Addario shows how she adjusts from a work environment of grave danger and high-adrenaline to being a mother making the school run and spending time with her sons.
In this conversation, she tells Mishal Husain, why she believes her job is to “bear witness” and how she came to it. She remembers the first time she used a camera and shares how her childhood prepared her to walk into any situation and connect with anyone, from soldiers to refugees and civilians living through extreme times.
This interview contains descriptions of abduction, violence and sexual assault which some listeners/viewers may find distressing.
02:27 - Love+War
03:34 - The turning point
06:00 - Learning about the risks
07:00 “I don’t want to do this for a living”
09:19 - Being held in Fallujah
11:20 - On embed in Afghanistan
14:31 - Operation Rock Avalanche
15:43 - Dealing with the emotion
16:50 - The daughter of hairdressers in Connecticut
17:44 - Getting her first camera
19:30 - Planning a “shoot-list”
21:51 - Russian strike on Ukraine
17:30 - Being held hostage in Libya
31:02 - Survivor’s guilt
33:30 Life at home
36:30 - Social media and fake images
40:18 - Switching off
Watch this podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe4PRejZgr0Ns_wjGlmjlPz0cded0nTYS
You can find the written version of this interview with Mishal’s notes on Bloomberg Weekend: https://www.bloomberg.com/latest/weekend-interview
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. A note before we
start that this conversation includes an account of abduction, violence,
and sexual assault that some listeners may find distressing.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
We went on daily patrols six seven hours a day.
We were shot at, ambushed, and then we had to
jump out of black hawks in the middle of the
night into the heart of Tulliban Territory.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Lindsay Adario Pulitzerprise winning photographer and chronicler of the extreme
and the every day.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
My job is to bear witness to everything that happens
in conflict zones. Women continue to deliver babies, I see marriages, divorce,
I see death and life.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Do you love the job?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's something that I do from my heart and my soul.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
From Bloomberg Weekend. This is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm
Michelle Hussein. There have been times in my professional life
when I've had to take a flat jacket and body
armor with me on assignment. Not that I've ever been
a war reporter, but there are places I've needed to
(01:17):
go to which carried risk and you always need to
be prepared. Whenever I saw that kit in the hallway
before a trip, I always felt a moment of gratitude
that this wasn't part of my everyday work. For Lindsaya Dario,
though it is. She's an award winning photographer who's worked
in war zones from Afghanistan and Ukraine to Sudan. Sometimes
(01:42):
it's the writer the correspondent traveling with her who ends
up getting more of the attention from an assignment, but
it's Lindsay's pictures which bring their words to life. Some
years ago, she wrote her own book about the places
she's been, the extreme situations she's experienced, including being kidnapped twice,
(02:03):
once in Iraq and once in Libya. If you're thinking
there aren't many women in this field, you'd be right,
and that's part of why there's a new documentary about
her on Disney Plus. Intriguingly, it's called Love and War,
which is why when we spoke, I asked her, how
(02:23):
does love come into it?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Love comes into it in the balance of my family.
You have war, and then you come home to this
sort of nest of love with my children and my husband,
also my sisters and my parents. But I think also
the thing about war is that you see these incredible
scenes of love and generosity and kindness and selflessness alongside brutality.
(02:51):
Of course, you get a sense of love that actually
sort of binds people in these horrific moments.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You've witnessed birth, You've certainly witnessed death, You've witnessed grief.
All of this is part of what you do.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, I mean, my job is to bear witness to
everything that happens in conflict zones and also outside of
conflict zones. And so I'm seeing daily life continue under
these very difficult circumstances. So that means, yes, women continue
to deliver babies. You know, I see marriages, I see divorce,
(03:25):
I see everything. I see death and life.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Do you love the job? Is that also part of
the love that's in this?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I mean, I don't think anyone could cover war without
loving the job. It's something that I do from my
heart and my soul. It's something that I do because
I believe in it.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Going back in time, I wondered if we could talk
about two turning points. I think they're turning points, the
first of which is nine to eleven, and you're already
working as a photographer. But is that the moment where
you become a war photographer?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah? So I was photographing for many years, and then
I moved to India in two thousand and in India,
I started becoming aware of women's issues in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It's not about how to come to power exactly, as
of being restricted exactly, and.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So I was reading about that, and I was reading
a lot about women's issues in Afghanistan, and as a
young woman, I was curious, you know, what to Afghan
women think? Not necessarily what does the West think of
what Afghan women must feel, but what do they actually think?
And so I went to Afghanistan as I was twenty
six years old, and I borrowed money from my sister
(04:36):
and I started doing a lot of reporting and photographing
what I could of women living under the Taliban and
I ended up making three trips to Afghanistan before September eleventh.
So when September eleventh happened and the US was gearing
up for war in Afghanistan, it felt very natural for
me to go there because I was already quite familiar
(04:57):
with it and so had.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
A hot time. Hadn't you se selling those pictures?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I couldn't give.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Them away, I mean is interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
No one was interested because it was before September eleventh,
and very few journalists were actually working in Afghanistan at
the time. Photography was illegal under the Taliban, So the
La Times published some pictures, but really it was difficult
to get them published.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And that all changed suddenly with international interest in the
country absolutely nine to eleven. And was there a sense
of excitemental thrill then for you that new opportunities are dawning.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, I think after September eleventh what became exciting for
me is that I had this knowledge that I had
procured on my own, and then suddenly it was relevant
on a world stage. And so the New York Times
sent me on my first big assignment for them, which
was covering Pakistan leading up to the fall of the Taliban,
and then the New York Times magazine put me on
(05:54):
assignment to do the Women of Jihad, and so I
started working pretty consistently for the New York Times then.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
But that's when you guess you have to learn that
there are risks involved in your work, right, You start
to have to evaluate that, like covering a war is
something completely different to you at that stage.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Absolutely, at that time, there were suicide bombers, there were
smaller scale attacks. The US started bombing Afghanistan, and then
we had to navigate how to go in. There was
a whole you know, when do you go into a
country when the government or the taller bomb was falling.
You know, when is it safe to actually move into
a place that's very hostile? And so it's always a
(06:35):
learning curve. You know. Now with Ukraine it's drones, and
so I think it's ever evolving.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
The other turning point I wondered about in your career
was Iraq in two thousand and four, because you had
the first of your abduction kidnap experiences. Then take me
back to that time and that place, the really chaotic
period after the US invasion, the year afterwards, I mean even.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Leading up to the US invasion, when I was offered
to go into Iraq, I didn't think. I really wasn't
sure I could handle a military mbed. At that point,
I had never been in combat. I was offered a
position with one hundred and first Airborne. I did not
take it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So why did you think you couldn't handle it?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Because I was a woman. I didn't know if I'd
be physically fit enough, if i'd be as strong as
the man I was going in with. I didn't know
what it would feel like to be under fire, because
even though I covered the fall of the Taliban, it
was not combat. This is going to be frontline, yeah,
And I really didn't want to be responsible for holding
(07:38):
anyone up or being scared or I just wasn't sure
how I would respond. And so I ended up going
into northern Iraq from Iran, and many journalists did, and
we were sort of covering the Kurdish territory and there
was a proxy war. It was Lansar fighting US forces
backed by Kurdish special forces, and it was there that
(07:59):
I was in my first attack that was a very
close call that actually killed a journalist standing where I
had been standing. And we were covering refugees fleeing this area,
something that I covered a million times now, and all
the locals were warning us to leave, and we went
to leave, and literally an incoming round came in and
(08:22):
landed so close to our car that our entire car
flew forward. And as we evacuated, we went to this
school like a few kilometers down the road, and a
taxi pulled up and said, is there a journalist here?
And everyone was regathering and the taxi driver said, I
have the body of a journalist in my trunk. Can
someone help me identify him? And I just I remember
(08:44):
looking at him, and I ran behind the school and
just started sobbing and thinking, I don't want to do
this for a living. I don't think I can stay here.
But there was no way out because Saddam was still
in power. We couldn't go south, Iran wouldn't let us
back in, and I basically had to learn how to
deal with my fear and how to cover war in
(09:05):
northern Iraq. So before the kidnapping in Iraq, there were
like these gradual close calls.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Maybe that's almost a sliding doors moment, that one, because
had there been a way out, I probably would have
and you might not have gone back to that kind
of zone again. But then you were there in Iraq again,
and you were out one day with other journalists, and
that was when you got held up at a checkpoint.
Yeah Fallujah.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah. So I had basically spent all of two thousand
and three and the beginning of two thousand and four
in Iraq. I was working with a colleague for the
New York Times, and we heard there was a helicopter down,
a marine helicopter down. So we went. The only road
open was a smuggler's route, and as we were nearing
the outskirts of Fallujah, we turned a corner and literally
(09:52):
the entire road was full of insurgents with kafias their faces, wrapped,
rockets on their backs, coloss and a coughs. They started
shooting in the air, where it was terrifying. They pulled
all the men out of the car. I was dressed
in full hit jobs so by a headscarf, everything, and
they left me sitting in the car and I was
looking out the window watching my colleague get led away.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And this is where you did something really interesting. You
said that colleague was your husband.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah. I thought if I did that, they would take
us as a couple and it'd be more complicated for
them to kill us or to figure out what to do.
When you insert a woman into that situation, it's a
hell of.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
A thing to do, Lindsey, I'm trying to imagine being
in the same position, and you're in not safety, but
you're in a more protected position in this car, and
you're connecting yourself to someone who's being led away.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I guess, but you would probably do the same thing.
I mean, you work in teams in these places, and
when you work in war zones, there is a solidarity,
and so I didn't think about it in terms of
my own safety. I thought about it in terms of
how can I help this situation? And I think it
did help diffuse it didn't it? I think it did
in the end. I think it did. They held us
(11:10):
for a day. It was terrifying. Of course, we had
guns to our heads. They questioned us repeatedly, and in
the end they ended up letting us go.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
You've also been on embeds with the US in Afghanistan,
and when you've written about it in your book, I
think one gets a sense of the humanity of the
soldiers as well as the civilians. You were embedded, I
think with one group for two months, and at the
end of that some of those you'd been with were killed.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Correct. I was embedded with the one hundred and seventy third
Airborn in the Corngall Valley, and that was in two
thousand and seven, at the time, arguably the most dangerous
place in Afghanistan, and we intentionally asked to embed there
because we wanted to understand why there were so many
civilian casualties in Afghanistan given the incredible technology that the
(11:58):
US military had, and so we were very lucky because
we were allowed as women to go to sort of
the heart of the war and we spent two months
with them and witnessed, you know, went on daily patrols
six seven hours a day, we were shot at, ambushed,
and then at the end we went on Operation Rock Avalanche,
(12:18):
which was a battalion wide operation. We had to jump
out of black Hawks in the middle of the night
into the heart of Tulliban territory. And it was really
on these missions that you learn what wars about. It
was one of the few times, ironically, in twenty five
years of covering conflict that I really felt like I
was at the heart of war because you're on the
(12:41):
side of the mountain with a group of young American
men who are told they're fighting for democracy, and you
just sort of see the cost. You really understand the
complete disconnect between the Afghans who didn't want the Americans
there and the Americans who thought they were helping the
Afghan and young American soldiers dying and Afghanist dying. So
(13:05):
what was it for? And you don't see those scenes
unless you really invest the time.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Did you have those conversations? I'm wondering what the dynamic
is like on an embed when you can clearly see this,
because you know Afghanistan and you know how the civilians
feel about the presence, and it's evident in the fact
that the attacks are taking place. But do you have
those conversations with the soldiers? Not really.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I mean I think for them at that time, they
were sort of despondent because they had been there so long.
It was so incredibly dangerous. I mean, we were shot
at almost every day on every patrol. They were living
in bunkers on the side of a mountain, and everyone
was really lonely. Their personal lives were falling apart, and
so they would talk about what are we doing here?
(13:52):
But I think in terms of the greater political context,
we never went there. It was very much about just
kind of being there, having the trust of the soldiers,
being able to access these embeds in these scenes.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Do you think your presence represents something to them, some
kind of assemblance for world outside.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah. They kept asking us, like, you're really here because
you want to be regular. They could not believe it,
and so I think they were very grateful that we
were there, that the American public can see their service,
could see what they were going through. I think that
for them it's like a validation of what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
One of the people who was later killed in action,
you knew that he was planning to go home and
propose to his girlfriend, and you end up photographing Rugel
his body bag. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
We were ambushed in Operation Rock Avalanche, and it was
so chaotic and that we heard that there was man
down and I'm photographing, and I realized I had photographed
two of the three wounded. And then as I was
making my way to the landing zone where the METAVAC
was coming in to take out the wounded, I thought,
where's because I knew his call sign and he hadn't
(15:02):
come out. And then I saw the scout team sort
of emerging from the dust carrying a body bag. And
it was in that moment that I thought, I can't
believe he's dead. You know, this young man who was
so alive and talking about his future and then seeing
him be carried in a body bag was really devastating.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
And the other soldiers are crying, and then I.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Was crying, of course, because you make that connection, and
then you think of his parents, you think of his
loved ones, and you think they don't even know yet
that they've lost their loved one.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Do you have a struggle with leaving any of that
behind at the end of the day because you also
need to you must need to compartmentalize, or do you
not think of it that way? Is the emotion part
of what makes you a great photographer?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I think a combination. I mean, I definitely allow myself
to feel, and I have, I think, an extraordinary amount
of empathy, and that I wish I wasn't so emotional,
but I think that it's important, and I think that
when I stop feeling, I really need to be worried.
But I also compartmentalize when I go home, because I
have to be present for my personal life and I
(16:09):
owe it to now my children and my husband to
not live in this very dark place of sadness and
war all the time. I carry it with me. I
make it a point to not just forget about things,
but I definitely have to compartmentalize so that I can
be present.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So we go back in time then to your birth family,
your parents, and your sisters when you were growing up.
I think, because you're the youngest of fool, your older
sisters have said that they deserve some credit for what
you are because they toughened you up.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, they were really tough on me. I mean, anyone
who has older sisters knows it's generally not an easy path.
We grew up in Connecticut and a very sort of open,
eccentric household. My parents are hairdressers, and we had very
few rules at our house growing up. But my three
older sisters, who I'm now very close to, were really tough.
(17:00):
I mean they'd sort of they'd picked me up. They
picked up me, they'd call me names that were constantly
slamming the door in my face and telling me I
couldn't join in. And I guess yeah, in a sense,
they did. Dof for me.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
You had to go really far from home to carve
out your own path. I feel, yes I did. But
your parents being hairdresses, I mean, I'm thinking headdresses have
to be good with people, they have to be able
to talk to anyone, And perhaps that is a thread
that you've brought into your professional exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It was really a household where we sort of opened
our doors to anyone and everyone. And I think that
that made me who I am in terms of being
able to walk into any situation not be judgmental, really
be able to accept people for who they are and
where they're at.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
What was the first time you picked up a camera?
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
My father gave me a camera when I was about
twelve years old. A client of his gave him a camera,
and I remember I had no idea how to use it.
So I started reading all these manuals of like how
to photograph and and so I started taking pictures of
inanimate objects because I was too shy to approach people.
(18:10):
And then I would sit on the roof and try
and photograph the moon. And it was an awakening for
me of sort of a different way of expressing. But
it really wasn't until I graduated and then I started
photographing people and really started becoming aware of photojournalism as
a way to tell stories.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
But you hadn't grown up with photojournalism. Is that right now?
I think it wasn't a house which had newspapers coming in.
You're not looking at images of like conflicts around the world.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Really, it was not an intellectual family. We had no
books in the house except for the encyclopedias, and so
it wasn't until really I went to university and I
was determined to do something that was more intellectual, obviously
because I grew up in such a creative family, and
I studied international relations and I did not want to
be a photographer at all. And then I graduated and
(18:59):
the only thing I wanted to do was photograph. And
it wasn't until I realized that you can photojournalism with
sort of this great marriage between that it existed and yeah,
that it existed, which sounds ridiculous, But if you don't
grow up in a family with newspapers and where you're
constantly sort of privy to what's happening in the world,
why would I have known about photojournalism.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Your craft today? When you go out on assignment, and
you've been on many tough assignments, including Ukraine and recently
Sudan and Gaza and other places. But when you're going
out and you presume you want to come back that
day with something hug of course, what do you set
out Do you set out to think today, I really
want to capture a particular kind of scene. Yeah, are
(19:44):
you going with the flow. No.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I guess what people don't understand it is that photojournalism
and being a photographer is not just about taking photos.
There is so much that goes into it. So as
I'm gearing up for a trip, I spend an extraordinary
amount of time doing research, updating myself on what's happening
right now.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Are you looking for locations or thinking everything? That hospital
is somewhere I'd like to go to. That kind of
person is someone I want to find.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I'm looking for themes. I'm looking for contacts. I'm looking
for hospitals. I'm looking for schools. I'm looking for what
is the story of the moment, what is important? And
how can I advance the story? What's not being told,
what's happening to women that is rape being used as
a weapon of war. I'm looking for sort of everything.
So when I finally get on the ground in a country,
(20:33):
every day I have a list of things in my head.
I'm making notes, I'm doing reporting on the ground. I'm
constantly updating my shoot list. And sometimes things are serendipitous.
Sometimes I'll be driving and I'll see this extraordinary scene
and I'll stop the car and that might be the
photo for the day, But I always have an agenda somewhere.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
But that shoot list, when you're thinking about it in
advance and making that list, is it visual that you
actually have.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Do you think in that way? Yeah, well I think
in words. Do you think in images? I think in images.
In Sudan, for example, I knew that food is an
issue and there is malnutrition, and so when I'm going in,
I know I have to look for a communal kitchen,
one of the emergency response rooms, food distribution. You know,
is there some place that I can show that people
(21:21):
are starving. I'm making a list because there are things
I've read about. There are things that I know help
comprehensively tell a story, and so it's not just about
showing up somewhere and looking for pretty pictures.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
There was a day early in the war in Ukraine
in February twenty twenty two when you were out and
you ended up seeing Themoth immediate Aftomoth actually being almost
in the middle of a Russian struggle. I was evacuated.
Civilians tell me about that day because it led to
a famous image that you've taken. But I want to
know the before sure, and the often so it.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Was actually March sixth, twenty twenty two, and at that
point the situation in Butucha and Airpine was a bit
of a mystery. Everyone knew the Russians were there. They
had sort of encircled the area. A lot of civilians
started fleeing to Kiev across the broken Earpen bridge. The
bridge had been broken intentionally by the Ukrainian forces to
(22:34):
stop the Russian advance, and so I had seen these
photographs of hundreds of Ukrainian civilians leaving Bucha and Eirpeine
across the bridge the day before, and I didn't know
about it, and I was really upset with myself because
it was a really important moment in the conflict, and
so I made a plan to go the following morning,
(22:56):
and it felt incredibly tense, and I had been worn
that there was shelling on the other side of the bridge,
and so we took cover behind this wall near the bridge,
and we were photographing civilians leaving, and it was a
known civilian evacuation route. So when the first mortar round
came in, I thought, well, the Russians know this is
(23:18):
all civilians, so they won't kill them. Because of course,
putin had said repeatedly, we are not targeting civilians, and
so my security advisor said, would you like to leave?
And I said, no, no, no, they're not going to
target this. This is all women and children and elderly.
And so I was shooting and then another round came
in a bit closer, and so we dove for cover
(23:39):
behind the cement wall, and almost immediately a third round
came in and landed with like twenty meters between me
and the family, and I saw the flash of the round.
The mortar round hit the pavement and it was a
ball of flames, and dove behind this wall and when
I popped up, I thought that it was a soldier
(24:00):
that had been knocked down, because they were calling for
a medic. And as I approached, I realized that there
were children. I mean, I first noticed these moon boots
and I thought, I can't believe there was a family.
And I'm scanning the scene and I'm shooting, and there's
still rounds coming in, so I know I have to
work quickly. Of course, my instinct is to leave, but
(24:23):
I don't want to leave because I've just witnessed what
I thought was a war crime, and so I'm shooting,
and then I work my way around the scene and
I see the faces, and I'm thinking to myself, the
New York Times will never publish civilians who have been killed.
But I have to document this just for the sake
of documentation, and I'm trying to do it in a
(24:45):
respectful way, in a way that's dignified. Of course, I
don't know if the family is dead or alive. And
then we have to run away because there rounds still
coming in. And when I get back to the car,
I called my editor and I said, I've just waitness this,
and I'll send you photographs if they're in focus. Of course,
I had no idea if I'd even properly made pictures,
(25:07):
because I was still in shock. And the New York
Times did make a decision to run the photos on
the front page on the house floor they were used.
They went sort of viral, just to prove that civilians
were being targeted.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Why was that so exceptional to publish those pictures, because
these are culpses. These are faces of corpses that are
visible the picture.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
In my many years of covering war, it is always
a huge debate whether to publish the dead, especially when
their faces are identifiable. In this case, I tried to
shoot in a way where their faces were not, but
it wasn't very graphic. It looked as if everyone was
sleeping they had been knocked over by the sheer impact
(25:50):
of the blast, that we had only been spared because
actually the blast went in their direction and not our direction.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
You said you were shocked, but we also angry.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Oh, I mean I was angry. I was upset. In
the documentary, you can hear me cursing because I didn't
even realize that Andre, my colleague, had been shooting the
whole time. And so I somehow convinced myself from the
time we got into the car to back to the hotel,
that actually it wasn't really a close call, that we
(26:22):
were fine. We were quite a distance. And when I
got back to the hotel, Clarissa Ward, who's the CNN correspondent,
messaged me and said, are you okay? And I said, yeah,
I'm fine. She said I saw the attack. I said,
how did you see the attack? And she said Andre
posted it on Facebook. And my heart sort of sank
because then I realized my family will have seen it,
(26:43):
perhaps my children will have seen it, and I realized
it actually was as close as I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
In a situation like that, if you'll editor whoever you're
trying to sell the pictures to says, actually, we're not
going to use that for whatever reason, maybe even sometimes
because it's not interesting enough in the brutal realities of
the way New covered. What does that do to you?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Well, I mean, on these assignments, I can't do anything, really,
I mean ethically, I have to just say okay. In
this case, I was terrified they would say that. And
because I had survived the attack and I knew that
it was intentional targeting, I really went to bat because
this was a situation where I actually witnessed bracketing of
(27:25):
mortar rounds onto a civilian evacuation route, and so for
me it was very important to publish these pictures.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I want to ask you to put on your headphones
and listen to something that you said a few years
before that, And it was when you had been in
Libya in twenty eleven and you had been held hostage
by Gadaffi's troops in really difficult circumstances, and after you
had come out of that, you went on CNN and
(27:53):
you were asked whether these kinds of risks and realities
of your work were worth it.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
When I was blind for it and bound and getting
punched in the face, I said, why do I do this?
Who cares about Libya? Why do I care about Libya?
You know, these are questions I asked myself repeatedly. I
do it because I believe in it. I do it
because I think our policy makers need to have a
first hand view of what's happening on the ground to
make informed decisions. I think it's very important. But is
(28:20):
it worth my life? Is it worth doing this to
the people I love?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
It's a difficult question. They were traumatic days. I can
see that from the descriptions you've given before. But how
can you encapsulate what happened in those eight days after
you abducted in twenty eleven with other journalists?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I was taken hostage with three other journalists for
the New York Times, three men. We were blindfolded, tied up,
beaten up. As the only woman, I was groped repeatedly
by numerous men. And the most terrifying thing about being
in captivity is that you have no idea what will
(28:57):
come next, and so it's really about getting through minute
by minute and can I survive being punched in the
face and groped and breathed on punched in the face. Yeah.
There was a moment in the very beginning of the
captivity where they tied me up and put me in
a vehicle on the front line, and they were sort
(29:19):
of laughing at us because we were literally held on
the front line while bullets and bombs were kind of
raining around us in the crossfire. And at one point
a soldier came over and sat next to me, and
I thought, very stupidly that he was going to offer
me water, because even in Iraq when we were held hostage,
they were quite kind to us. You know, they weren't
(29:41):
beating us. I mean, the bar is low, but you know,
they weren't beating us, and they were giving us water.
And so in Libya when he sat next to me,
I looked at him and I thought, Okay, he's going
to offer me water, and instead he pulled his fist
back and just punched me square in the face. And
I'm tied up, and I remember just putting my head
down and actually seeing stars like in the cartoons, and
(30:05):
my first thought was, oh, that's where the cartoons get
the stars from. And then I thought, I can't believe
this man has just punched me in the face a
bound woman, and so I just started crying. And you
don't want to make any noise because you don't want
to offend anyone. So I was being very quiet and
I just put my head down and tears were rolling
down my face. And then he just walked away, and
(30:26):
another man came over and put his cell phone to
my ear, and his wife was on the phone and
she said you are a dog and I said no, actually,
I'm a journalist and she said you are a donkey
and I said, no, Sahafa journalist. And it was mock executions.
It was threatened constantly with tonight we will kill you.
There were moments where one soldier had a gun to
(30:49):
my face and he was caressing my cheek with his finger,
saying tonight we will kill you. I mean, it was
just a constant barrage of fear and emotions.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And you're hearing your coagues being beaten up, yeah, exactly
all the time as well. I know you lost colleagues
in other incidents in Libya, and I remember being there
in May of twenty eleven, close to where you were
that day, but filming a documentary, so away from the
front line. But I remember being in a hotel where
(31:19):
there was a note saying, if anyone knows where the
possessions of Tim Heatherington are, please let us know. And
this was someone you know, you'd been with him, another
journalist who was killed in that period. But I remember
the effect on me because I knew him only by name,
but seeing that little note on the wall and thinking
he stayed in this hotel and one day he went
(31:41):
out and he didn't come back and people are looking
for his things. It was such a tiny detail, but
it just made you think of the days when everything changes.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, I mean Tim and I were together in the cornngall.
Actually we covered Operation Rock Avalanche together.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
In Afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
In Afghanistan that we spoke about and made a film
about it. Yeah, he made an incredible film about it, Ristreppo,
that's worth watching. Tim was an incredible photographer. He was
a very thinking photographer, very sensitive, and on his way
into Libya, he had been emailing me asking for advice
on what the frontline was like, how to cover it,
(32:17):
what he needed to bring. And then I of course
went missing and he came in while I was in captivity,
and so we never actually saw each other. And when
I got out, I was dealing with my trauma of
what we had been through. And then about a month
after we had been released, I was in a meeting actually,
and I looked at my phone and I got a
(32:39):
message that he had been killed, along with Chris Hondros,
who was another incredible photographer, and their death sent me
into this tailspin that my own captivity had not. And
I think a lot of it had to do with
survivor's guilt. You know, why do some people live and
some people don't? You know, nothing really makes sense in
(33:00):
those moments, and there's no reason why we should be
alive after Libya. I mean, there were so many moments
where we should have been dead, and then they got killed,
and so you have to ask yourself why you survive
and others don't.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
It's a really tough question, do you ask yourself? Yeah,
because it's an impossible one to answer, so you're sort
of torturing yourself by asking it.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, I asked myself. I asked myself in the same
vein that I ask myself why I'm so driven to
do this work, despite the costs, despite the sort of
emotional toll and the fallout on my loved ones.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You've got young sons, and in the film we see
you bathing the little one, and he says, do you
have to go away like this? And please? Can you
only go away for one day or three days? And
you're trying to explain to him that some of the
places you go a really far away but that's really hard.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
It's really hard. It's so hard.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I mean, keep going away, you do, keep going back
to these really tough places.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I do. And he keeps asking me those questions. Now
he's six, and even the thirteen year old, who will
be fourteen, they both ask me all the time. Why
do you have to go? Lucas says, is it dangerous?
Is there fighting? What do you say to is it dangerous?
I say it's dangerous, but I know how to stay safe.
And you know I don't go to where it's too dangerous.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Look, there's an unpredictability in war, you never know, but
there's also an unpredictability in life. I believe in this work,
and I believe this is where I need to be,
and I hope that my children can learn from that dedication.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Would you have gone to Gaza, for example, if journalists
had been allowed, Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And
I think I, like every international journalist and war correspondent,
really struggles with the fact that no international media has
been allowed Indagaza. And I think that for any of
us who dedicate our lives to this work, the tools
(34:55):
we have to dealing with witnessing this trauma and witnessing
this devastation is to go and do something, to go
and at least be a platform for the people on
the ground, at least provide a voice for them, and
to have those tools taken away is incredibly debilitating. Palestinian
journalists have been documenting the war at great cost, and
(35:17):
they die, Yeah, some of them targeted exactly Vira over
two hundred. Do you think that there's been enough solidarity
with them, the fact that this is the deadliest period
I'm documented for the last thirty years for journalists Palestinian
I hope. So.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I think we can only amplify their voices, and we
can also point out the incredible work they've been doing.
I think that we can point out the fact that
many journalists have been killed and targeted and hope that
it's not with impunity. Hope that at some point there
will be someone called to be responsible for this. I
think the fact that most Palestinian journalists are sort of
(35:54):
dismissed as being part of Hamas, which is ridiculous, and
for us to stand up, as in national journalists, to
say no, these are accredited journalists. These are people risking
their lives to bring the world the truth. Can we talk,
lindsay about images and what you've seen over your career
because you began your work in the age before social media,
and the fact that we live in a world where
(36:16):
people scroll from one short form video to another, you know,
videos roll into each other. That how many people consume
information and news for that matter. What does that mean
for your work? Yeah, it's a very different thing. Because
when I first covered conflict, we were the only way
that a story could get out. People really relied on
(36:37):
us to tell their stories. The responsibility felt even greater.
Now we're in a situation where people can disseminate their
own stories. We're sort of inundated by images and reporting.
I think the main thing that we have to be
conscious of is it's so important to understand where you're
getting your information, and so when you see something on
(36:58):
social media, no one cannot automatically take it as truth.
And now in the age of AI, it's hard to
verify images. You cannot just look at an image and
know that it's reality. And so I think that the
role of journalists is more important than ever because we
really have a responsibility to make sure we're doing our
job as responsible journalists, that we're doing the fact checking,
(37:22):
we're getting the facts straight. And I think that it
is it's very important.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Is it harder for an image that you or anyone
else takes to have lasting impact? I'm remembering the National
Geographic cover with the young, nasty instant mc curry, Yeah,
that's right, and then the image of the refugee child drowned.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
The beach and Vietnam you'll mention.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
So images like that, which you and I both remember.
Is it harder now, when again, we have so much
coming in for anything to have that kind of impact?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Well, I don't know, you know, Eilon CURTI was at
a time where we did have social media already and
that image rose.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
To the top, But it was before TikTok, it.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Was it was before TikTok, But I think we were
at that point already inundated by images. You know, there
were so many images from the refugee crisis coming out,
and that image was so poignant because of the position
of that little boy, the fact that he looked like
he was sleeping. He could have been any one of
our children. It's very difficult with images because people need
(38:28):
to find a window to relate. They need to find
a way into an image, and so if it's too graphic,
often people will turn away because it's too hard right now,
especially right now.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
And do you think of that as you're taking the picture?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I do you think of that?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Have to frame it slightly differently, to almost sanitize it
a bit. No, what I do is I'll shoot in
many different ways. I mean, I will shoot the sort
of pure graphicness, and I will also just shoot. I'll
try to make it more palatable. I'll try to make
an image that I think the public in the handle
and that the New York Times will actually publish, because
(39:03):
most people will not.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Publish an image that is gratuitously graphic.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
But what is the change you've seen? I'm wondering if
the appetite for the graphic image is less now.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, I think the appetite is less, but actually the
tolerance is more because we see so many graphic images.
If you look at the images that have come out
of Gaza, I mean they're horrific, because what's happening there
is horrific. I mean you see children being pulled from
the rubble, you see mothers over their children. There's no
end to the horrors we see coming out of Gaza.
(39:35):
It's not to say that those images will be published
in print, but they certainly are out there, and I
think we as a public are used to seeing them
over and over. And that's a pretty devastating place to be,
you know, where we are at a place where I
can look at an image and say that is the
most horrible thing I've ever seen, But actually I saw
(39:55):
that same image yesterday.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
In these interviewes, I normally ask people about their weekends,
but I feel like with you, it's yeah, you're laughing
because I get it, Like it's not a week day,
what's a weekend? But is there a key dividing line
between being on assignment and being at home? Is that
the fundamental dividing again in your life.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, when I'm working, there are no weekends, obviously, and
when i'm home, I'm still working all the time. But
I do try to carve out time with my kids.
Sometimes my thirteen year old wants nothing to do with
me anyway, so it doesn't really matter. But I'm there
and I'm cooking for them, and I'm trying to be present.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
But the work doesn't stop because you're doing the captions
and you're processing the images, and you're probably thinking about
the next the next assignment.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I'm planning the next assignment and I'm writing another book
right now, so that's taking up a lot of time.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
And you exercise. We see exercising in the film, and
it really made me think about the level of physical
fitness that is not nice to have. It's essential for
your job.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
It is. I mean, most people who do my job
are men, most of them are young men, and so
I am in my fifties and I have to be fit.
I have to be able to carry gear, I have
to be able to run with it. I have to
just not let my physical fitness ever get in the
way of work.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
How do you switch off?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
I switch off when I'm with my friends and family,
you know, I make a conscious effort to come home
from six weeks in Ukraine and throw a dinner party
for twenty five people because it makes me happy.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I mean, it makes me happy, but I mean the
complexities of human life and your domestic life and human
arrangements that can be messy in a way that perhaps
when you're on assignment you're in a certain mode.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Well, when I'm on assignment, I try not to think
too much about my kids and my family because then
I feel like it will affect too much the decisions
I'm making on the ground, and I have to really
stay focused, and so I'm not facetiming with my kids
every day. I'm not talking to my husband. I'm trying
(42:00):
not to be too distracted by my kids. Really, But
when you picture them, because you do think visually, when
you picture the home life, the perfect weekend, the perfect
home moment, what do you see? What's the image in
your mind's eye, just sort of me in the kitchen,
cooking or baking, and the kids coming in and out
(42:21):
doing their thing. We have a very unconventional life, much
like how I was raised, because we let the kids
have a fair amount of freedom in deciding how they
want to spend their weekends.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
But your life has these two extremes, yeah, does, and
you that's the way you want it. I presume I
don't really have a choice. I mean, I think when
I decided to have a family, that meant living between
two very dramatic extremes, and it meant sort of being
torn always between these two worlds. Lindsay Adara, thank you,
(42:57):
thank you, thank you. And that's the Michelle Hussein Show
for this week. If you subscribe, you'll know as soon
as a new episode hits the feed. And to everyone
who's rated us here or left comments, thank you. We
do also have an email Michelle Show at Bloomberg dot net.
(43:21):
If you'd like to watch these conversations, they're on YouTube
and Bloomberg TV, and there's a text version with my
notes for added context. Those are at Bloomberg dot com
slash Weekend. The show's producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martinu.
The executive producer is Louisa Lewis. Our sound engineer is
(43:41):
Richard Ward. Video editing Toby Babalola and Evando Thompson. Guestbooking
Dave Warren, Social media Alex Morgan, and the music is
by Bart Walshaw. At Bloomberg Weekend, Brendan Francis Nunham is
Editorial director of Audio and Special Projects, and our executive
(44:01):
editor is Catherine Bell. We'd also like to thank Summersadi
and the Bloomberg Podcast team, and thank you for listening
until next weekend. Goodbye,
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. A note before we
start that this conversation includes an account of abduction, violence,
and sexual assault that some listeners may find distressing.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
We went on daily patrols six seven hours a day.
We were shot at, ambushed, and then we had to
jump out of black hawks in the middle of the
night into the heart of Tulliban Territory.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Lindsay Adario Pulitzerprise winning photographer and chronicler of the extreme
and the every day.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
My job is to bear witness to everything that happens
in conflict zones. Women continue to deliver babies, I see marriages, divorce,
I see death and life.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Do you love the job?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's something that I do from my heart and my soul.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
From Bloomberg Weekend. This is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm
Michelle Hussein. There have been times in my professional life
when I've had to take a flat jacket and body
armor with me on assignment. Not that I've ever been
a war reporter, but there are places I've needed to
(01:17):
go to which carried risk and you always need to
be prepared. Whenever I saw that kit in the hallway
before a trip, I always felt a moment of gratitude
that this wasn't part of my everyday work. For Lindsaya Dario,
though it is. She's an award winning photographer who's worked
in war zones from Afghanistan and Ukraine to Sudan. Sometimes
(01:42):
it's the writer the correspondent traveling with her who ends
up getting more of the attention from an assignment, but
it's Lindsay's pictures which bring their words to life. Some
years ago, she wrote her own book about the places
she's been, the extreme situations she's experienced, including being kidnapped twice,
(02:03):
once in Iraq and once in Libya. If you're thinking
there aren't many women in this field, you'd be right,
and that's part of why there's a new documentary about
her on Disney Plus. Intriguingly, it's called Love and War,
which is why when we spoke, I asked her, how
(02:23):
does love come into it?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Love comes into it in the balance of my family.
You have war, and then you come home to this
sort of nest of love with my children and my husband,
also my sisters and my parents. But I think also
the thing about war is that you see these incredible
scenes of love and generosity and kindness and selflessness alongside brutality.
(02:51):
Of course, you get a sense of love that actually
sort of binds people in these horrific moments.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You've witnessed birth, You've certainly witnessed death, You've witnessed grief.
All of this is part of what you do.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, I mean, my job is to bear witness to
everything that happens in conflict zones and also outside of
conflict zones. And so I'm seeing daily life continue under
these very difficult circumstances. So that means, yes, women continue
to deliver babies. You know, I see marriages, I see divorce,
(03:25):
I see everything. I see death and life.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Do you love the job? Is that also part of
the love that's in this?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I mean, I don't think anyone could cover war without
loving the job. It's something that I do from my
heart and my soul. It's something that I do because
I believe in it.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Going back in time, I wondered if we could talk
about two turning points. I think they're turning points, the
first of which is nine to eleven, and you're already
working as a photographer. But is that the moment where
you become a war photographer?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah? So I was photographing for many years, and then
I moved to India in two thousand and in India,
I started becoming aware of women's issues in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It's not about how to come to power exactly, as
of being restricted exactly, and.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So I was reading about that, and I was reading
a lot about women's issues in Afghanistan, and as a
young woman, I was curious, you know, what to Afghan
women think? Not necessarily what does the West think of
what Afghan women must feel, but what do they actually think?
And so I went to Afghanistan as I was twenty
six years old, and I borrowed money from my sister
(04:36):
and I started doing a lot of reporting and photographing
what I could of women living under the Taliban and
I ended up making three trips to Afghanistan before September eleventh.
So when September eleventh happened and the US was gearing
up for war in Afghanistan, it felt very natural for
me to go there because I was already quite familiar
(04:57):
with it and so had.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
A hot time. Hadn't you se selling those pictures?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I couldn't give.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Them away, I mean is interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
No one was interested because it was before September eleventh,
and very few journalists were actually working in Afghanistan at
the time. Photography was illegal under the Taliban, So the
La Times published some pictures, but really it was difficult
to get them published.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And that all changed suddenly with international interest in the
country absolutely nine to eleven. And was there a sense
of excitemental thrill then for you that new opportunities are dawning.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, I think after September eleventh what became exciting for
me is that I had this knowledge that I had
procured on my own, and then suddenly it was relevant
on a world stage. And so the New York Times
sent me on my first big assignment for them, which
was covering Pakistan leading up to the fall of the Taliban,
and then the New York Times magazine put me on
(05:54):
assignment to do the Women of Jihad, and so I
started working pretty consistently for the New York Times then.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
But that's when you guess you have to learn that
there are risks involved in your work, right, You start
to have to evaluate that, like covering a war is
something completely different to you at that stage.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Absolutely, at that time, there were suicide bombers, there were
smaller scale attacks. The US started bombing Afghanistan, and then
we had to navigate how to go in. There was
a whole you know, when do you go into a
country when the government or the taller bomb was falling.
You know, when is it safe to actually move into
a place that's very hostile? And so it's always a
(06:35):
learning curve. You know. Now with Ukraine it's drones, and
so I think it's ever evolving.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
The other turning point I wondered about in your career
was Iraq in two thousand and four, because you had
the first of your abduction kidnap experiences. Then take me
back to that time and that place, the really chaotic
period after the US invasion, the year afterwards, I mean even.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Leading up to the US invasion, when I was offered
to go into Iraq, I didn't think. I really wasn't
sure I could handle a military mbed. At that point,
I had never been in combat. I was offered a
position with one hundred and first Airborne. I did not
take it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So why did you think you couldn't handle it?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Because I was a woman. I didn't know if I'd
be physically fit enough, if i'd be as strong as
the man I was going in with. I didn't know
what it would feel like to be under fire, because
even though I covered the fall of the Taliban, it
was not combat. This is going to be frontline, yeah,
And I really didn't want to be responsible for holding
(07:38):
anyone up or being scared or I just wasn't sure
how I would respond. And so I ended up going
into northern Iraq from Iran, and many journalists did, and
we were sort of covering the Kurdish territory and there
was a proxy war. It was Lansar fighting US forces
backed by Kurdish special forces, and it was there that
(07:59):
I was in my first attack that was a very
close call that actually killed a journalist standing where I
had been standing. And we were covering refugees fleeing this area,
something that I covered a million times now, and all
the locals were warning us to leave, and we went
to leave, and literally an incoming round came in and
(08:22):
landed so close to our car that our entire car
flew forward. And as we evacuated, we went to this
school like a few kilometers down the road, and a
taxi pulled up and said, is there a journalist here?
And everyone was regathering and the taxi driver said, I
have the body of a journalist in my trunk. Can
someone help me identify him? And I just I remember
(08:44):
looking at him, and I ran behind the school and
just started sobbing and thinking, I don't want to do
this for a living. I don't think I can stay here.
But there was no way out because Saddam was still
in power. We couldn't go south, Iran wouldn't let us
back in, and I basically had to learn how to
deal with my fear and how to cover war in
(09:05):
northern Iraq. So before the kidnapping in Iraq, there were
like these gradual close calls.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Maybe that's almost a sliding doors moment, that one, because
had there been a way out, I probably would have
and you might not have gone back to that kind
of zone again. But then you were there in Iraq again,
and you were out one day with other journalists, and
that was when you got held up at a checkpoint.
Yeah Fallujah.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah. So I had basically spent all of two thousand
and three and the beginning of two thousand and four
in Iraq. I was working with a colleague for the
New York Times, and we heard there was a helicopter down,
a marine helicopter down. So we went. The only road
open was a smuggler's route, and as we were nearing
the outskirts of Fallujah, we turned a corner and literally
(09:52):
the entire road was full of insurgents with kafias their faces, wrapped,
rockets on their backs, coloss and a coughs. They started
shooting in the air, where it was terrifying. They pulled
all the men out of the car. I was dressed
in full hit jobs so by a headscarf, everything, and
they left me sitting in the car and I was
looking out the window watching my colleague get led away.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And this is where you did something really interesting. You
said that colleague was your husband.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah. I thought if I did that, they would take
us as a couple and it'd be more complicated for
them to kill us or to figure out what to do.
When you insert a woman into that situation, it's a
hell of.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
A thing to do, Lindsey, I'm trying to imagine being
in the same position, and you're in not safety, but
you're in a more protected position in this car, and
you're connecting yourself to someone who's being led away.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I guess, but you would probably do the same thing.
I mean, you work in teams in these places, and
when you work in war zones, there is a solidarity,
and so I didn't think about it in terms of
my own safety. I thought about it in terms of
how can I help this situation? And I think it
did help diffuse it didn't it? I think it did
in the end. I think it did. They held us
(11:10):
for a day. It was terrifying. Of course, we had
guns to our heads. They questioned us repeatedly, and in
the end they ended up letting us go.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
You've also been on embeds with the US in Afghanistan,
and when you've written about it in your book, I
think one gets a sense of the humanity of the
soldiers as well as the civilians. You were embedded, I
think with one group for two months, and at the
end of that some of those you'd been with were killed.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Correct. I was embedded with the one hundred and seventy third
Airborn in the Corngall Valley, and that was in two
thousand and seven, at the time, arguably the most dangerous
place in Afghanistan, and we intentionally asked to embed there
because we wanted to understand why there were so many
civilian casualties in Afghanistan given the incredible technology that the
(11:58):
US military had, and so we were very lucky because
we were allowed as women to go to sort of
the heart of the war and we spent two months
with them and witnessed, you know, went on daily patrols
six seven hours a day, we were shot at, ambushed,
and then at the end we went on Operation Rock Avalanche,
(12:18):
which was a battalion wide operation. We had to jump
out of black Hawks in the middle of the night
into the heart of Tulliban territory. And it was really
on these missions that you learn what wars about. It
was one of the few times, ironically, in twenty five
years of covering conflict that I really felt like I
was at the heart of war because you're on the
(12:41):
side of the mountain with a group of young American
men who are told they're fighting for democracy, and you
just sort of see the cost. You really understand the
complete disconnect between the Afghans who didn't want the Americans
there and the Americans who thought they were helping the
Afghan and young American soldiers dying and Afghanist dying. So
(13:05):
what was it for? And you don't see those scenes
unless you really invest the time.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Did you have those conversations? I'm wondering what the dynamic
is like on an embed when you can clearly see this,
because you know Afghanistan and you know how the civilians
feel about the presence, and it's evident in the fact
that the attacks are taking place. But do you have
those conversations with the soldiers? Not really.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I mean I think for them at that time, they
were sort of despondent because they had been there so long.
It was so incredibly dangerous. I mean, we were shot
at almost every day on every patrol. They were living
in bunkers on the side of a mountain, and everyone
was really lonely. Their personal lives were falling apart, and
so they would talk about what are we doing here?
(13:52):
But I think in terms of the greater political context,
we never went there. It was very much about just
kind of being there, having the trust of the soldiers,
being able to access these embeds in these scenes.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Do you think your presence represents something to them, some
kind of assemblance for world outside.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah. They kept asking us, like, you're really here because
you want to be regular. They could not believe it,
and so I think they were very grateful that we
were there, that the American public can see their service,
could see what they were going through. I think that
for them it's like a validation of what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
One of the people who was later killed in action,
you knew that he was planning to go home and
propose to his girlfriend, and you end up photographing Rugel
his body bag. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
We were ambushed in Operation Rock Avalanche, and it was
so chaotic and that we heard that there was man
down and I'm photographing, and I realized I had photographed
two of the three wounded. And then as I was
making my way to the landing zone where the METAVAC
was coming in to take out the wounded, I thought,
where's because I knew his call sign and he hadn't
(15:02):
come out. And then I saw the scout team sort
of emerging from the dust carrying a body bag. And
it was in that moment that I thought, I can't
believe he's dead. You know, this young man who was
so alive and talking about his future and then seeing
him be carried in a body bag was really devastating.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
And the other soldiers are crying, and then I.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Was crying, of course, because you make that connection, and
then you think of his parents, you think of his
loved ones, and you think they don't even know yet
that they've lost their loved one.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Do you have a struggle with leaving any of that
behind at the end of the day because you also
need to you must need to compartmentalize, or do you
not think of it that way? Is the emotion part
of what makes you a great photographer?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I think a combination. I mean, I definitely allow myself
to feel, and I have, I think, an extraordinary amount
of empathy, and that I wish I wasn't so emotional,
but I think that it's important, and I think that
when I stop feeling, I really need to be worried.
But I also compartmentalize when I go home, because I
have to be present for my personal life and I
(16:09):
owe it to now my children and my husband to
not live in this very dark place of sadness and
war all the time. I carry it with me. I
make it a point to not just forget about things,
but I definitely have to compartmentalize so that I can
be present.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So we go back in time then to your birth family,
your parents, and your sisters when you were growing up.
I think, because you're the youngest of fool, your older
sisters have said that they deserve some credit for what
you are because they toughened you up.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, they were really tough on me. I mean, anyone
who has older sisters knows it's generally not an easy path.
We grew up in Connecticut and a very sort of open,
eccentric household. My parents are hairdressers, and we had very
few rules at our house growing up. But my three
older sisters, who I'm now very close to, were really tough.
(17:00):
I mean they'd sort of they'd picked me up. They
picked up me, they'd call me names that were constantly
slamming the door in my face and telling me I
couldn't join in. And I guess yeah, in a sense,
they did. Dof for me.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
You had to go really far from home to carve
out your own path. I feel, yes I did. But
your parents being hairdresses, I mean, I'm thinking headdresses have
to be good with people, they have to be able
to talk to anyone, And perhaps that is a thread
that you've brought into your professional exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It was really a household where we sort of opened
our doors to anyone and everyone. And I think that
that made me who I am in terms of being
able to walk into any situation not be judgmental, really
be able to accept people for who they are and
where they're at.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
What was the first time you picked up a camera?
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
My father gave me a camera when I was about
twelve years old. A client of his gave him a camera,
and I remember I had no idea how to use it.
So I started reading all these manuals of like how
to photograph and and so I started taking pictures of
inanimate objects because I was too shy to approach people.
(18:10):
And then I would sit on the roof and try
and photograph the moon. And it was an awakening for
me of sort of a different way of expressing. But
it really wasn't until I graduated and then I started
photographing people and really started becoming aware of photojournalism as
a way to tell stories.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
But you hadn't grown up with photojournalism. Is that right now?
I think it wasn't a house which had newspapers coming in.
You're not looking at images of like conflicts around the world.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Really, it was not an intellectual family. We had no
books in the house except for the encyclopedias, and so
it wasn't until really I went to university and I
was determined to do something that was more intellectual, obviously
because I grew up in such a creative family, and
I studied international relations and I did not want to
be a photographer at all. And then I graduated and
(18:59):
the only thing I wanted to do was photograph. And
it wasn't until I realized that you can photojournalism with
sort of this great marriage between that it existed and yeah,
that it existed, which sounds ridiculous, But if you don't
grow up in a family with newspapers and where you're
constantly sort of privy to what's happening in the world,
why would I have known about photojournalism.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Your craft today? When you go out on assignment, and
you've been on many tough assignments, including Ukraine and recently
Sudan and Gaza and other places. But when you're going
out and you presume you want to come back that
day with something hug of course, what do you set
out Do you set out to think today, I really
want to capture a particular kind of scene. Yeah, are
(19:44):
you going with the flow. No.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I guess what people don't understand it is that photojournalism
and being a photographer is not just about taking photos.
There is so much that goes into it. So as
I'm gearing up for a trip, I spend an extraordinary
amount of time doing research, updating myself on what's happening
right now.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Are you looking for locations or thinking everything? That hospital
is somewhere I'd like to go to. That kind of
person is someone I want to find.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I'm looking for themes. I'm looking for contacts. I'm looking
for hospitals. I'm looking for schools. I'm looking for what
is the story of the moment, what is important? And
how can I advance the story? What's not being told,
what's happening to women that is rape being used as
a weapon of war. I'm looking for sort of everything.
So when I finally get on the ground in a country,
(20:33):
every day I have a list of things in my head.
I'm making notes, I'm doing reporting on the ground. I'm
constantly updating my shoot list. And sometimes things are serendipitous.
Sometimes I'll be driving and I'll see this extraordinary scene
and I'll stop the car and that might be the
photo for the day, But I always have an agenda somewhere.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
But that shoot list, when you're thinking about it in
advance and making that list, is it visual that you
actually have.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Do you think in that way? Yeah, well I think
in words. Do you think in images? I think in images.
In Sudan, for example, I knew that food is an
issue and there is malnutrition, and so when I'm going in,
I know I have to look for a communal kitchen,
one of the emergency response rooms, food distribution. You know,
is there some place that I can show that people
(21:21):
are starving. I'm making a list because there are things
I've read about. There are things that I know help
comprehensively tell a story, and so it's not just about
showing up somewhere and looking for pretty pictures.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
There was a day early in the war in Ukraine
in February twenty twenty two when you were out and
you ended up seeing Themoth immediate Aftomoth actually being almost
in the middle of a Russian struggle. I was evacuated.
Civilians tell me about that day because it led to
a famous image that you've taken. But I want to
know the before sure, and the often so it.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Was actually March sixth, twenty twenty two, and at that
point the situation in Butucha and Airpine was a bit
of a mystery. Everyone knew the Russians were there. They
had sort of encircled the area. A lot of civilians
started fleeing to Kiev across the broken Earpen bridge. The
bridge had been broken intentionally by the Ukrainian forces to
(22:34):
stop the Russian advance, and so I had seen these
photographs of hundreds of Ukrainian civilians leaving Bucha and Eirpeine
across the bridge the day before, and I didn't know
about it, and I was really upset with myself because
it was a really important moment in the conflict, and
so I made a plan to go the following morning,
(22:56):
and it felt incredibly tense, and I had been worn
that there was shelling on the other side of the bridge,
and so we took cover behind this wall near the bridge,
and we were photographing civilians leaving, and it was a
known civilian evacuation route. So when the first mortar round
came in, I thought, well, the Russians know this is
(23:18):
all civilians, so they won't kill them. Because of course,
putin had said repeatedly, we are not targeting civilians, and
so my security advisor said, would you like to leave?
And I said, no, no, no, they're not going to
target this. This is all women and children and elderly.
And so I was shooting and then another round came
in a bit closer, and so we dove for cover
(23:39):
behind the cement wall, and almost immediately a third round
came in and landed with like twenty meters between me
and the family, and I saw the flash of the round.
The mortar round hit the pavement and it was a
ball of flames, and dove behind this wall and when
I popped up, I thought that it was a soldier
(24:00):
that had been knocked down, because they were calling for
a medic. And as I approached, I realized that there
were children. I mean, I first noticed these moon boots
and I thought, I can't believe there was a family.
And I'm scanning the scene and I'm shooting, and there's
still rounds coming in, so I know I have to
work quickly. Of course, my instinct is to leave, but
(24:23):
I don't want to leave because I've just witnessed what
I thought was a war crime, and so I'm shooting,
and then I work my way around the scene and
I see the faces, and I'm thinking to myself, the
New York Times will never publish civilians who have been killed.
But I have to document this just for the sake
of documentation, and I'm trying to do it in a
(24:45):
respectful way, in a way that's dignified. Of course, I
don't know if the family is dead or alive. And
then we have to run away because there rounds still
coming in. And when I get back to the car,
I called my editor and I said, I've just waitness this,
and I'll send you photographs if they're in focus. Of course,
I had no idea if I'd even properly made pictures,
(25:07):
because I was still in shock. And the New York
Times did make a decision to run the photos on
the front page on the house floor they were used.
They went sort of viral, just to prove that civilians
were being targeted.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Why was that so exceptional to publish those pictures, because
these are culpses. These are faces of corpses that are
visible the picture.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
In my many years of covering war, it is always
a huge debate whether to publish the dead, especially when
their faces are identifiable. In this case, I tried to
shoot in a way where their faces were not, but
it wasn't very graphic. It looked as if everyone was
sleeping they had been knocked over by the sheer impact
(25:50):
of the blast, that we had only been spared because
actually the blast went in their direction and not our direction.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
You said you were shocked, but we also angry.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Oh, I mean I was angry. I was upset. In
the documentary, you can hear me cursing because I didn't
even realize that Andre, my colleague, had been shooting the
whole time. And so I somehow convinced myself from the
time we got into the car to back to the hotel,
that actually it wasn't really a close call, that we
(26:22):
were fine. We were quite a distance. And when I
got back to the hotel, Clarissa Ward, who's the CNN correspondent,
messaged me and said, are you okay? And I said, yeah,
I'm fine. She said I saw the attack. I said,
how did you see the attack? And she said Andre
posted it on Facebook. And my heart sort of sank
because then I realized my family will have seen it,
(26:43):
perhaps my children will have seen it, and I realized
it actually was as close as I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
In a situation like that, if you'll editor whoever you're
trying to sell the pictures to says, actually, we're not
going to use that for whatever reason, maybe even sometimes
because it's not interesting enough in the brutal realities of
the way New covered. What does that do to you?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Well, I mean, on these assignments, I can't do anything, really,
I mean ethically, I have to just say okay. In
this case, I was terrified they would say that. And
because I had survived the attack and I knew that
it was intentional targeting, I really went to bat because
this was a situation where I actually witnessed bracketing of
(27:25):
mortar rounds onto a civilian evacuation route, and so for
me it was very important to publish these pictures.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I want to ask you to put on your headphones
and listen to something that you said a few years
before that, And it was when you had been in
Libya in twenty eleven and you had been held hostage
by Gadaffi's troops in really difficult circumstances, and after you
had come out of that, you went on CNN and
(27:53):
you were asked whether these kinds of risks and realities
of your work were worth it.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
When I was blind for it and bound and getting
punched in the face, I said, why do I do this?
Who cares about Libya? Why do I care about Libya?
You know, these are questions I asked myself repeatedly. I
do it because I believe in it. I do it
because I think our policy makers need to have a
first hand view of what's happening on the ground to
make informed decisions. I think it's very important. But is
(28:20):
it worth my life? Is it worth doing this to
the people I love?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
It's a difficult question. They were traumatic days. I can
see that from the descriptions you've given before. But how
can you encapsulate what happened in those eight days after
you abducted in twenty eleven with other journalists?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I was taken hostage with three other journalists for
the New York Times, three men. We were blindfolded, tied up,
beaten up. As the only woman, I was groped repeatedly
by numerous men. And the most terrifying thing about being
in captivity is that you have no idea what will
(28:57):
come next, and so it's really about getting through minute
by minute and can I survive being punched in the
face and groped and breathed on punched in the face. Yeah.
There was a moment in the very beginning of the
captivity where they tied me up and put me in
a vehicle on the front line, and they were sort
(29:19):
of laughing at us because we were literally held on
the front line while bullets and bombs were kind of
raining around us in the crossfire. And at one point
a soldier came over and sat next to me, and
I thought, very stupidly that he was going to offer
me water, because even in Iraq when we were held hostage,
they were quite kind to us. You know, they weren't
(29:41):
beating us. I mean, the bar is low, but you know,
they weren't beating us, and they were giving us water.
And so in Libya when he sat next to me,
I looked at him and I thought, Okay, he's going
to offer me water, and instead he pulled his fist
back and just punched me square in the face. And
I'm tied up, and I remember just putting my head
down and actually seeing stars like in the cartoons, and
(30:05):
my first thought was, oh, that's where the cartoons get
the stars from. And then I thought, I can't believe
this man has just punched me in the face a
bound woman, and so I just started crying. And you
don't want to make any noise because you don't want
to offend anyone. So I was being very quiet and
I just put my head down and tears were rolling
down my face. And then he just walked away, and
(30:26):
another man came over and put his cell phone to
my ear, and his wife was on the phone and
she said you are a dog and I said no, actually,
I'm a journalist and she said you are a donkey
and I said, no, Sahafa journalist. And it was mock executions.
It was threatened constantly with tonight we will kill you.
There were moments where one soldier had a gun to
(30:49):
my face and he was caressing my cheek with his finger,
saying tonight we will kill you. I mean, it was
just a constant barrage of fear and emotions.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And you're hearing your coagues being beaten up, yeah, exactly
all the time as well. I know you lost colleagues
in other incidents in Libya, and I remember being there
in May of twenty eleven, close to where you were
that day, but filming a documentary, so away from the
front line. But I remember being in a hotel where
(31:19):
there was a note saying, if anyone knows where the
possessions of Tim Heatherington are, please let us know. And
this was someone you know, you'd been with him, another
journalist who was killed in that period. But I remember
the effect on me because I knew him only by name,
but seeing that little note on the wall and thinking
he stayed in this hotel and one day he went
(31:41):
out and he didn't come back and people are looking
for his things. It was such a tiny detail, but
it just made you think of the days when everything changes.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, I mean Tim and I were together in the cornngall.
Actually we covered Operation Rock Avalanche together.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
In Afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
In Afghanistan that we spoke about and made a film
about it. Yeah, he made an incredible film about it, Ristreppo,
that's worth watching. Tim was an incredible photographer. He was
a very thinking photographer, very sensitive, and on his way
into Libya, he had been emailing me asking for advice
on what the frontline was like, how to cover it,
(32:17):
what he needed to bring. And then I of course
went missing and he came in while I was in captivity,
and so we never actually saw each other. And when
I got out, I was dealing with my trauma of
what we had been through. And then about a month
after we had been released, I was in a meeting actually,
and I looked at my phone and I got a
(32:39):
message that he had been killed, along with Chris Hondros,
who was another incredible photographer, and their death sent me
into this tailspin that my own captivity had not. And
I think a lot of it had to do with
survivor's guilt. You know, why do some people live and
some people don't? You know, nothing really makes sense in
(33:00):
those moments, and there's no reason why we should be
alive after Libya. I mean, there were so many moments
where we should have been dead, and then they got killed,
and so you have to ask yourself why you survive
and others don't.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
It's a really tough question, do you ask yourself? Yeah,
because it's an impossible one to answer, so you're sort
of torturing yourself by asking it.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, I asked myself. I asked myself in the same
vein that I ask myself why I'm so driven to
do this work, despite the costs, despite the sort of
emotional toll and the fallout on my loved ones.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You've got young sons, and in the film we see
you bathing the little one, and he says, do you
have to go away like this? And please? Can you
only go away for one day or three days? And
you're trying to explain to him that some of the
places you go a really far away but that's really hard.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
It's really hard. It's so hard.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I mean, keep going away, you do, keep going back
to these really tough places.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I do. And he keeps asking me those questions. Now
he's six, and even the thirteen year old, who will
be fourteen, they both ask me all the time. Why
do you have to go? Lucas says, is it dangerous?
Is there fighting? What do you say to is it dangerous?
I say it's dangerous, but I know how to stay safe.
And you know I don't go to where it's too dangerous.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Look, there's an unpredictability in war, you never know, but
there's also an unpredictability in life. I believe in this work,
and I believe this is where I need to be,
and I hope that my children can learn from that dedication.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Would you have gone to Gaza, for example, if journalists
had been allowed, Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And
I think I, like every international journalist and war correspondent,
really struggles with the fact that no international media has
been allowed Indagaza. And I think that for any of
us who dedicate our lives to this work, the tools
(34:55):
we have to dealing with witnessing this trauma and witnessing
this devastation is to go and do something, to go
and at least be a platform for the people on
the ground, at least provide a voice for them, and
to have those tools taken away is incredibly debilitating. Palestinian
journalists have been documenting the war at great cost, and
(35:17):
they die, Yeah, some of them targeted exactly Vira over
two hundred. Do you think that there's been enough solidarity
with them, the fact that this is the deadliest period
I'm documented for the last thirty years for journalists Palestinian
I hope. So.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I think we can only amplify their voices, and we
can also point out the incredible work they've been doing.
I think that we can point out the fact that
many journalists have been killed and targeted and hope that
it's not with impunity. Hope that at some point there
will be someone called to be responsible for this. I
think the fact that most Palestinian journalists are sort of
(35:54):
dismissed as being part of Hamas, which is ridiculous, and
for us to stand up, as in national journalists, to
say no, these are accredited journalists. These are people risking
their lives to bring the world the truth. Can we talk,
lindsay about images and what you've seen over your career
because you began your work in the age before social media,
and the fact that we live in a world where
(36:16):
people scroll from one short form video to another, you know,
videos roll into each other. That how many people consume
information and news for that matter. What does that mean
for your work? Yeah, it's a very different thing. Because
when I first covered conflict, we were the only way
that a story could get out. People really relied on
(36:37):
us to tell their stories. The responsibility felt even greater.
Now we're in a situation where people can disseminate their
own stories. We're sort of inundated by images and reporting.
I think the main thing that we have to be
conscious of is it's so important to understand where you're
getting your information, and so when you see something on
(36:58):
social media, no one cannot automatically take it as truth.
And now in the age of AI, it's hard to
verify images. You cannot just look at an image and
know that it's reality. And so I think that the
role of journalists is more important than ever because we
really have a responsibility to make sure we're doing our
job as responsible journalists, that we're doing the fact checking,
(37:22):
we're getting the facts straight. And I think that it
is it's very important.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Is it harder for an image that you or anyone
else takes to have lasting impact? I'm remembering the National
Geographic cover with the young, nasty instant mc curry, Yeah,
that's right, and then the image of the refugee child drowned.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
The beach and Vietnam you'll mention.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
So images like that, which you and I both remember.
Is it harder now, when again, we have so much
coming in for anything to have that kind of impact?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Well, I don't know, you know, Eilon CURTI was at
a time where we did have social media already and
that image rose.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
To the top, But it was before TikTok, it.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Was it was before TikTok, But I think we were
at that point already inundated by images. You know, there
were so many images from the refugee crisis coming out,
and that image was so poignant because of the position
of that little boy, the fact that he looked like
he was sleeping. He could have been any one of
our children. It's very difficult with images because people need
(38:28):
to find a window to relate. They need to find
a way into an image, and so if it's too graphic,
often people will turn away because it's too hard right now,
especially right now.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
And do you think of that as you're taking the picture?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I do you think of that?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Have to frame it slightly differently, to almost sanitize it
a bit. No, what I do is I'll shoot in
many different ways. I mean, I will shoot the sort
of pure graphicness, and I will also just shoot. I'll
try to make it more palatable. I'll try to make
an image that I think the public in the handle
and that the New York Times will actually publish, because
(39:03):
most people will not.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Publish an image that is gratuitously graphic.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
But what is the change you've seen? I'm wondering if
the appetite for the graphic image is less now.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, I think the appetite is less, but actually the
tolerance is more because we see so many graphic images.
If you look at the images that have come out
of Gaza, I mean they're horrific, because what's happening there
is horrific. I mean you see children being pulled from
the rubble, you see mothers over their children. There's no
end to the horrors we see coming out of Gaza.
(39:35):
It's not to say that those images will be published
in print, but they certainly are out there, and I
think we as a public are used to seeing them
over and over. And that's a pretty devastating place to be,
you know, where we are at a place where I
can look at an image and say that is the
most horrible thing I've ever seen, But actually I saw
(39:55):
that same image yesterday.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
In these interviewes, I normally ask people about their weekends,
but I feel like with you, it's yeah, you're laughing
because I get it, Like it's not a week day,
what's a weekend? But is there a key dividing line
between being on assignment and being at home? Is that
the fundamental dividing again in your life.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, when I'm working, there are no weekends, obviously, and
when i'm home, I'm still working all the time. But
I do try to carve out time with my kids.
Sometimes my thirteen year old wants nothing to do with
me anyway, so it doesn't really matter. But I'm there
and I'm cooking for them, and I'm trying to be present.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
But the work doesn't stop because you're doing the captions
and you're processing the images, and you're probably thinking about
the next the next assignment.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I'm planning the next assignment and I'm writing another book
right now, so that's taking up a lot of time.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
And you exercise. We see exercising in the film, and
it really made me think about the level of physical
fitness that is not nice to have. It's essential for
your job.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
It is. I mean, most people who do my job
are men, most of them are young men, and so
I am in my fifties and I have to be fit.
I have to be able to carry gear, I have
to be able to run with it. I have to
just not let my physical fitness ever get in the
way of work.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
How do you switch off?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
I switch off when I'm with my friends and family,
you know, I make a conscious effort to come home
from six weeks in Ukraine and throw a dinner party
for twenty five people because it makes me happy.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I mean, it makes me happy, but I mean the
complexities of human life and your domestic life and human
arrangements that can be messy in a way that perhaps
when you're on assignment you're in a certain mode.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Well, when I'm on assignment, I try not to think
too much about my kids and my family because then
I feel like it will affect too much the decisions
I'm making on the ground, and I have to really
stay focused, and so I'm not facetiming with my kids
every day. I'm not talking to my husband. I'm trying
(42:00):
not to be too distracted by my kids. Really, But
when you picture them, because you do think visually, when
you picture the home life, the perfect weekend, the perfect
home moment, what do you see? What's the image in
your mind's eye, just sort of me in the kitchen,
cooking or baking, and the kids coming in and out
(42:21):
doing their thing. We have a very unconventional life, much
like how I was raised, because we let the kids
have a fair amount of freedom in deciding how they
want to spend their weekends.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
But your life has these two extremes, yeah, does, and
you that's the way you want it. I presume I
don't really have a choice. I mean, I think when
I decided to have a family, that meant living between
two very dramatic extremes, and it meant sort of being
torn always between these two worlds. Lindsay Adara, thank you,
(42:57):
thank you, thank you. And that's the Michelle Hussein Show
for this week. If you subscribe, you'll know as soon
as a new episode hits the feed. And to everyone
who's rated us here or left comments, thank you. We
do also have an email Michelle Show at Bloomberg dot net.
(43:21):
If you'd like to watch these conversations, they're on YouTube
and Bloomberg TV, and there's a text version with my
notes for added context. Those are at Bloomberg dot com
slash Weekend. The show's producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martinu.
The executive producer is Louisa Lewis. Our sound engineer is
(43:41):
Richard Ward. Video editing Toby Babalola and Evando Thompson. Guestbooking
Dave Warren, Social media Alex Morgan, and the music is
by Bart Walshaw. At Bloomberg Weekend, Brendan Francis Nunham is
Editorial director of Audio and Special Projects, and our executive
(44:01):
editor is Catherine Bell. We'd also like to thank Summersadi
and the Bloomberg Podcast team, and thank you for listening
until next weekend. Goodbye,
Hosts And Creators
Sarah Holder
Saleha Mohsin
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