August 26, 2025 • 13 mins
President Donald Trump shared a letter on social media Monday night, addressed to Federal Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook stating he had made the decision to remove her from her position.
It immediately launched a legal fight over the validity of Trump’s move and raised concerns about the future of Fed independence.
On today’s Big Take podcast, Bloomberg international economics and policy correspondent Michael McKee joins host Sarah Holder to discuss the immediate fallout — and the potential long term ramifications.
Read more: Trump Moves to Fire Fed’s Cook, Setting Up Historic Fight
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. President Donald Trump shared
a letter on social media Monday night, addressed to Federal
Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook social.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Media, accusing her of falsifying records to obtain favorable terms
on a mortgage. The president writing, I am determined there
is sufficient cause to remove you from your position.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It wasn't exactly a surprise. Trump has been telegraphing that
he wanted to remove Cook for days of her allegations
that she committed mortgage fraud in twenty twenty one, but
his attempt to push out a sitting FED governor still
marks a watershed moment. In a cabinet meeting Tuesday, Trump
doubled down on his allegations. No, she seems to have
(00:48):
had an infraction, and she can't have an infraction, and
especially that infraction because she's in charge of, if you
think about it, mortgages, and we need people that are
one hundred percent above board. It's unclear whether Trump actually
has the power to remove Cook. Cook has said she
will answer legitimate questions but will not be quote bullied
into stepping down. Her lawyer has said they'll challenge the
(01:10):
firing in court and The Federal Reserve said in a
statement this afternoon that they will abide by any court decision.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Trump says she's fired, She says she's not. What happens
if she shows up to work.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Michael McKee is an international economics and policy correspondent for Bloomberg.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Does the Fed letter in, does the President send in
the US marshals to drag her out? Nobody knows exactly
how this is going to play out.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
The Trump administration has been putting pressure on the Federal
Reserve to lower interest rates for months. If Cook is removed,
Trump could have an opportunity to appoint another FED governor
who's more likely to go through with more aggressive rate cuts.
One of the biggest open questions is whether firing Cook
would even be legal. But the other, Michael says, is
(01:56):
what it all means for the independence of the Fed.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
The Fed in always a lot of credibility, and if
this move were to succeed, then it would tell people
that the President is dictating monetary policy rather than the Fed,
and that would create a real problem for the Fed
with the markets and public credibility.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from
Bloomberg News. Today on the show, President Trump moves to
fire Federal Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook, What it means
for the FED and the economy if Trump prevails, and
where the case could go from here. Trump started calling
(02:44):
for Federal Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook's removal last week
after the Federal Housing Finance Agency Director Bill Poulti started
raising questions about Cook's mortgage applications.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
The allegations are that in twenty twenty one, she signed
a mortgage document in ann Arbor, Michigan, then said at
the time she would make that her permanent residence. Then
to sign another mortgage in Georgia, saying she would make
that her permanent residence. And according to the FA director
of Bill Poulti, that's mortgage fraud. He said that he
(03:18):
had been combing records of people to see who committed
mortgage fraud, and he's found three so far, Adam Schiff,
the Democratic senator from California, and Letitia James, the Attorney
General of New York, and now Lisa Cook.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Have there been any charges in the Lisa Cook case
or any evidence presented.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
There hasn't been any charges or evidence presented publicly. The
FHFA forwarded documents to the Justice Department and asked them
to investigate, and the Justice Department said last week that
it would begin an investigation, but they have not been
presented publicly and so there is no public evidence that
she did anything wrong yet.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And I mean, if these allegations proved to be true,
is what Lisa Cook is a key used of a
fireable offense.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Well, that's an open question because under the law, the
Federal Reserve Act says the President can remove a FED
governor for cause, but cause is generally considered inefficiency, neglective duty,
or malfeasance in office. And these took place before she
was nominated to the FED, So we don't know if
(04:23):
it reaches the bar of for cause and gives the
President the right to fire her. That's something that the
courts will have to adjudicate. But it does reflect badly
on the FED. And so it may be that if
she were guilty of something, they would essentially pressure her
to leave, but we don't know yet. That's a long
(04:44):
way down the road.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Cook's lawyer says they'll challenge the firing in court. What
has Cook said about all this?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Cook has said very little when the charges were first
made by the President, she said that she would not
be bullied into resigning, and then in response to the
letter from the White House last night, her attorney put
out a statement from her saying that his demands lack
any proper process basis or legal authority, and will take
(05:11):
whatever actions are needed to prevent this attempted illegal action.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I want to step back for a second and just
learn a little bit more about Lisa Cook. Who is
she and what has defined her career well.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
She is an academic who has spent a lot of
time working on labor market issues, economic growth, financial systems,
and innovation policy. Also, she's focused on race related economic issues.
She's the first black woman ever appointed to the FED Board.
She was a regular fixture at Jackson Hole and places
like that and was nominated in twenty twenty two by
(05:48):
President Biden to the seat. Renominated in twenty twenty four,
and she came from Michigan State University to the FED
and has been there now for two little over two
years with a term that doesn't expire twenty thirty eight.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Given the Trump administration stance on race and equity related issues,
has Lisa Cook's research background and her race, being a
black woman made her more of a target for this administration.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
There are going to be people that say that given
the administration's actions in the past. We don't know for
sure what exactly motivates Trump in this case, but it's
more likely that she was a target of opportunity. The
FHFA found this discrepancy in her mortgage documents, and the
president wants to get rid of people who are on
(06:37):
the FED so he could put his own people in
there and maybe push them to drive down interest rates
much farther. And so she just happened to fall in
his lap as somebody he could try to fire.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Does Trump actually have the power to remove Cook? What
does the law say about it, What does the Supreme
Court say about it? What does the FED say about it?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, the law says that you can fire a governor
only for the question is what is cause, And we
have some previous precedents that say it's basically conduct in
office that is detrimental to the performance of your duties,
and so that would have to be proven in court.
There would probably have to be a court judgment that
she had broken the law, even if it didn't matter
(07:19):
that she wasn't in office at the time, so it's
not clear that president can actually fire her. The Supreme
Court said in a case in May involving a couple
of other administration officials who were fired by the President,
that the FED has this special carve out that they
aren't necessarily able to be fired at will, that the
President has to respect the four cause issue, so that
(07:40):
gives them a little bit of extra protection.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
After the break, what the FED has said about President
Trump's efforts to fire Lisa Cook and what the President's
threat means for the Central Bank as an institution. Federal
(08:06):
Reserve Governor Lisa Cook is ready to go to court
to challenge Trump's efforts to remove her, but there are
also other players who could step in to defend her,
like Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell and the FED itself.
Bloomberg's Michael McKee told me, so far, they've been staying
out of it.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
The FED has not commented on this. The problem for
the Fed is that they don't have the information either.
They haven't got the mortgage documents. They don't know what
the issues are. They don't know if she broke the law.
They don't want to throw her overboard, but they also
don't want to endorse illegal conduct if that were the case,
so they're going to stay out of it as much
as possible.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I feel like we say this so much reporting on
the Trump administration, but has anything like this happened before?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Nothing like this has ever happened before. In the one
hundred and twelve year history of the FED, no governor
has been fired by a president. Closest situation we have
was Vice Chair Richard Clarita when he was coming to
the end of his term. There was during COVID an
issue with him. What he said he did was rebalance
his stock portfolio, but others said he was trying to
(09:12):
profit from inside information, and what he ended up doing
was resigning from the FED a couple of months early.
But that's the closest parallel you have.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It all at a high level. What does Trump want
out of this? Why fire Lisa Cook?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, at bottom, he's looking for lower interest rates. He
has said that interest rates should be three hundred bases
points lower, somewhere around one percent. The FED thinks that's
a ridiculous idea that they might lower interest rates, but
maybe twenty five to fifty basis points. This year and
that's all. So he's got a bone to pick with
the Fed because the higher interest rates make his budget
(09:50):
cost a lot more. The deficit will rise because we
have to pay more in interest payments. Also, Trump wants
to control everything that he can, and by getting rid
of Lisa Cook, if he puts a fourth person on
the board, two in the first term and two in
this term, then he would have a majority of the
seven member board. And the tinfoil conspiracy hat theory is
(10:15):
that FED Bank presidents there are twelve of them, and
if Trump had managed to take control of the board,
and if everyone went along that he appointed, he could
have all those people fired too and try to influence
the selection of new FED Bank presidents. The administration doesn't
select them, they're selected by local boards, and Trump would
probably put pressure on those local boards to appoint people
(10:37):
who were sympathetic to his views.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Right, Well, it's interesting, it could be a tinfoil hat theory.
But former Federal Reserve Vice chair Lil Brainerd was on
Bloomberg TV earlier today and she raised those concerns that
multiple FED District Bank presidents could be removed from office
by Trump's FED Board picks. Next year.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Any member of the board, presumably is going to worry
that they two could be subject to this kind of
political pressure, and that fundamentally undermines the institutional independence of
the FED, which means higher inflation potentially less.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Can you walk us through what this move could mean
for the rest of the Central Bank as an institution
and what did you make of those concerns that she raised.
Does it add credence to this theory?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
It would add credence to it. I think the thing
that most people are looking at is all of these
theories and the idea of firing Federal Reserve governors were
considered fringe ideas, and now they're happening, So you can
never discount anything with Donald Trump. The problem for the
FED there are nineteen members on the Open Market Committee,
which sets interest rates. Twelve of them voted at a time,
(11:47):
all seven governors and five rotating regional Fed Bank presidents.
So if you changed the rotating Fed Bank presidents, you
could get enough out of the twelve to get a
majority and push interest rates down.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
This is bringing us to sort of the central question
behind all of this, which is the independence of the FED.
Can you explain to us again why is having an
independent FED so important? And what happens to the US
economy and to the public if that independence is challenged.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Independence is grounded in the idea that if you are
not subject to political pressure, you're making decisions on interest
rates in the best interests of the economy. What is
the economy telling you you need to do. Do you
need to raise rates because inflation is rising? Do you
need to cut rates because the economy is tanking? You
react to what is important. In this case, it would
(12:42):
be the president wants lower interest rates for his own
reasons and not for the good of the economy, and
so that would have a tremendous impact on the way
people felt about the FED, and it would probably lead
to higher inflation, and the FED if it couldn't live
up to its promise to bring down inla, then what
happens is inflation expectations become unmored. You start to think, well,
(13:05):
things are going to cost more tomorrow and the Fed's
not going to stop that, So maybe I'm not going
to buy or maybe I'm going to try to buy
everything today, and the economy starts to really contract under
those circumstances.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.
To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access
to all of Bloomberg dot com, subscribe today at Bloomberg
dot com slash podcast offer. If you liked this episode,
make sure to follow and review The Big Take wherever
you listen to podcasts. It helps people find the show.
Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. President Donald Trump shared
a letter on social media Monday night, addressed to Federal
Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook social.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Media, accusing her of falsifying records to obtain favorable terms
on a mortgage. The president writing, I am determined there
is sufficient cause to remove you from your position.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It wasn't exactly a surprise. Trump has been telegraphing that
he wanted to remove Cook for days of her allegations
that she committed mortgage fraud in twenty twenty one, but
his attempt to push out a sitting FED governor still
marks a watershed moment. In a cabinet meeting Tuesday, Trump
doubled down on his allegations. No, she seems to have
(00:48):
had an infraction, and she can't have an infraction, and
especially that infraction because she's in charge of, if you
think about it, mortgages, and we need people that are
one hundred percent above board. It's unclear whether Trump actually
has the power to remove Cook. Cook has said she
will answer legitimate questions but will not be quote bullied
into stepping down. Her lawyer has said they'll challenge the
(01:10):
firing in court and The Federal Reserve said in a
statement this afternoon that they will abide by any court decision.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Trump says she's fired, She says she's not. What happens
if she shows up to work.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Michael McKee is an international economics and policy correspondent for Bloomberg.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Does the Fed letter in, does the President send in
the US marshals to drag her out? Nobody knows exactly
how this is going to play out.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
The Trump administration has been putting pressure on the Federal
Reserve to lower interest rates for months. If Cook is removed,
Trump could have an opportunity to appoint another FED governor
who's more likely to go through with more aggressive rate cuts.
One of the biggest open questions is whether firing Cook
would even be legal. But the other, Michael says, is
(01:56):
what it all means for the independence of the Fed.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
The Fed in always a lot of credibility, and if
this move were to succeed, then it would tell people
that the President is dictating monetary policy rather than the Fed,
and that would create a real problem for the Fed
with the markets and public credibility.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from
Bloomberg News. Today on the show, President Trump moves to
fire Federal Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook, What it means
for the FED and the economy if Trump prevails, and
where the case could go from here. Trump started calling
(02:44):
for Federal Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook's removal last week
after the Federal Housing Finance Agency Director Bill Poulti started
raising questions about Cook's mortgage applications.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
The allegations are that in twenty twenty one, she signed
a mortgage document in ann Arbor, Michigan, then said at
the time she would make that her permanent residence. Then
to sign another mortgage in Georgia, saying she would make
that her permanent residence. And according to the FA director
of Bill Poulti, that's mortgage fraud. He said that he
(03:18):
had been combing records of people to see who committed
mortgage fraud, and he's found three so far, Adam Schiff,
the Democratic senator from California, and Letitia James, the Attorney
General of New York, and now Lisa Cook.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Have there been any charges in the Lisa Cook case
or any evidence presented.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
There hasn't been any charges or evidence presented publicly. The
FHFA forwarded documents to the Justice Department and asked them
to investigate, and the Justice Department said last week that
it would begin an investigation, but they have not been
presented publicly and so there is no public evidence that
she did anything wrong yet.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And I mean, if these allegations proved to be true,
is what Lisa Cook is a key used of a
fireable offense.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Well, that's an open question because under the law, the
Federal Reserve Act says the President can remove a FED
governor for cause, but cause is generally considered inefficiency, neglective duty,
or malfeasance in office. And these took place before she
was nominated to the FED, So we don't know if
(04:23):
it reaches the bar of for cause and gives the
President the right to fire her. That's something that the
courts will have to adjudicate. But it does reflect badly
on the FED. And so it may be that if
she were guilty of something, they would essentially pressure her
to leave, but we don't know yet. That's a long
(04:44):
way down the road.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Cook's lawyer says they'll challenge the firing in court. What
has Cook said about all this?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Cook has said very little when the charges were first
made by the President, she said that she would not
be bullied into resigning, and then in response to the
letter from the White House last night, her attorney put
out a statement from her saying that his demands lack
any proper process basis or legal authority, and will take
(05:11):
whatever actions are needed to prevent this attempted illegal action.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I want to step back for a second and just
learn a little bit more about Lisa Cook. Who is
she and what has defined her career well.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
She is an academic who has spent a lot of
time working on labor market issues, economic growth, financial systems,
and innovation policy. Also, she's focused on race related economic issues.
She's the first black woman ever appointed to the FED Board.
She was a regular fixture at Jackson Hole and places
like that and was nominated in twenty twenty two by
(05:48):
President Biden to the seat. Renominated in twenty twenty four,
and she came from Michigan State University to the FED
and has been there now for two little over two
years with a term that doesn't expire twenty thirty eight.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Given the Trump administration stance on race and equity related issues,
has Lisa Cook's research background and her race, being a
black woman made her more of a target for this administration.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
There are going to be people that say that given
the administration's actions in the past. We don't know for
sure what exactly motivates Trump in this case, but it's
more likely that she was a target of opportunity. The
FHFA found this discrepancy in her mortgage documents, and the
president wants to get rid of people who are on
(06:37):
the FED so he could put his own people in
there and maybe push them to drive down interest rates
much farther. And so she just happened to fall in
his lap as somebody he could try to fire.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Does Trump actually have the power to remove Cook? What
does the law say about it, What does the Supreme
Court say about it? What does the FED say about it?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, the law says that you can fire a governor
only for the question is what is cause, And we
have some previous precedents that say it's basically conduct in
office that is detrimental to the performance of your duties,
and so that would have to be proven in court.
There would probably have to be a court judgment that
she had broken the law, even if it didn't matter
(07:19):
that she wasn't in office at the time, so it's
not clear that president can actually fire her. The Supreme
Court said in a case in May involving a couple
of other administration officials who were fired by the President,
that the FED has this special carve out that they
aren't necessarily able to be fired at will, that the
President has to respect the four cause issue, so that
(07:40):
gives them a little bit of extra protection.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
After the break, what the FED has said about President
Trump's efforts to fire Lisa Cook and what the President's
threat means for the Central Bank as an institution. Federal
(08:06):
Reserve Governor Lisa Cook is ready to go to court
to challenge Trump's efforts to remove her, but there are
also other players who could step in to defend her,
like Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell and the FED itself.
Bloomberg's Michael McKee told me, so far, they've been staying
out of it.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
The FED has not commented on this. The problem for
the Fed is that they don't have the information either.
They haven't got the mortgage documents. They don't know what
the issues are. They don't know if she broke the law.
They don't want to throw her overboard, but they also
don't want to endorse illegal conduct if that were the case,
so they're going to stay out of it as much
as possible.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I feel like we say this so much reporting on
the Trump administration, but has anything like this happened before?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Nothing like this has ever happened before. In the one
hundred and twelve year history of the FED, no governor
has been fired by a president. Closest situation we have
was Vice Chair Richard Clarita when he was coming to
the end of his term. There was during COVID an
issue with him. What he said he did was rebalance
his stock portfolio, but others said he was trying to
(09:12):
profit from inside information, and what he ended up doing
was resigning from the FED a couple of months early.
But that's the closest parallel you have.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It all at a high level. What does Trump want
out of this? Why fire Lisa Cook?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, at bottom, he's looking for lower interest rates. He
has said that interest rates should be three hundred bases
points lower, somewhere around one percent. The FED thinks that's
a ridiculous idea that they might lower interest rates, but
maybe twenty five to fifty basis points. This year and
that's all. So he's got a bone to pick with
the Fed because the higher interest rates make his budget
(09:50):
cost a lot more. The deficit will rise because we
have to pay more in interest payments. Also, Trump wants
to control everything that he can, and by getting rid
of Lisa Cook, if he puts a fourth person on
the board, two in the first term and two in
this term, then he would have a majority of the
seven member board. And the tinfoil conspiracy hat theory is
(10:15):
that FED Bank presidents there are twelve of them, and
if Trump had managed to take control of the board,
and if everyone went along that he appointed, he could
have all those people fired too and try to influence
the selection of new FED Bank presidents. The administration doesn't
select them, they're selected by local boards, and Trump would
probably put pressure on those local boards to appoint people
(10:37):
who were sympathetic to his views.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Right, Well, it's interesting, it could be a tinfoil hat theory.
But former Federal Reserve Vice chair Lil Brainerd was on
Bloomberg TV earlier today and she raised those concerns that
multiple FED District Bank presidents could be removed from office
by Trump's FED Board picks. Next year.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Any member of the board, presumably is going to worry
that they two could be subject to this kind of
political pressure, and that fundamentally undermines the institutional independence of
the FED, which means higher inflation potentially less.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Can you walk us through what this move could mean
for the rest of the Central Bank as an institution
and what did you make of those concerns that she raised.
Does it add credence to this theory?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
It would add credence to it. I think the thing
that most people are looking at is all of these
theories and the idea of firing Federal Reserve governors were
considered fringe ideas, and now they're happening, So you can
never discount anything with Donald Trump. The problem for the
FED there are nineteen members on the Open Market Committee,
which sets interest rates. Twelve of them voted at a time,
(11:47):
all seven governors and five rotating regional Fed Bank presidents.
So if you changed the rotating Fed Bank presidents, you
could get enough out of the twelve to get a
majority and push interest rates down.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
This is bringing us to sort of the central question
behind all of this, which is the independence of the FED.
Can you explain to us again why is having an
independent FED so important? And what happens to the US
economy and to the public if that independence is challenged.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Independence is grounded in the idea that if you are
not subject to political pressure, you're making decisions on interest
rates in the best interests of the economy. What is
the economy telling you you need to do. Do you
need to raise rates because inflation is rising? Do you
need to cut rates because the economy is tanking? You
react to what is important. In this case, it would
(12:42):
be the president wants lower interest rates for his own
reasons and not for the good of the economy, and
so that would have a tremendous impact on the way
people felt about the FED, and it would probably lead
to higher inflation, and the FED if it couldn't live
up to its promise to bring down inla, then what
happens is inflation expectations become unmored. You start to think, well,
(13:05):
things are going to cost more tomorrow and the Fed's
not going to stop that, So maybe I'm not going
to buy or maybe I'm going to try to buy
everything today, and the economy starts to really contract under
those circumstances.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.
To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access
to all of Bloomberg dot com, subscribe today at Bloomberg
dot com slash podcast offer. If you liked this episode,
make sure to follow and review The Big Take wherever
you listen to podcasts. It helps people find the show.
Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow
Hosts And Creators
Sarah Holder
Saleha Mohsin
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