August 22, 2025 • 30 mins
From a life of hard labor in the Gobi Desert to becoming a prominent Hong Kong investor, Weijian Shan's story is one of incredible contrasts.
In an exclusive interview with Bloomberg's Mishal Husain, the Chinese economist and author opens up about his childhood during the Cultural Revolution, his thoughts on Hong Kong’s National Security law and President Trump’s trade war with China.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Boo, Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Wanha and this is the Big Take Asia
from Bloomberg News Today. In the show, a conversation with
Waijuan Shan, a Chinese economist, businessman, and author based in
Hong Kong. Michelle Hussain, and editor at large for Bloomberg Weekend,
sat down with Sean in Bloomberg's Hong Kong office in June.
Shawn's life has been one of extraordinary contrasts, from doing
(00:31):
hard labor in the Gobi Desert to being taught by
Janet Yellen and becoming one of Hong Kong's most prominent
investors Today. Sean runs PAG, one of the largest private
equity firms in Asia, with more than fifty five billion
dollars in assets under management. In this interview, Sean talks
about everything from his childhood during the Cultural Revolution to
(00:53):
Trump's trade battle with China. Here's Michelle's edited conversation with
Wai John Shan, co founder and executive chairman of pg.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Doctor Wai Jianshan, I'm really pleased to be doing this
because I think yours is a very important story and perspective.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Thank you so very much, I mean disappoint you.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
No, I don't think that's possible. You know both China
and America intimately. Indeed, you called your memoir a story
of China and America. With months of tariff threats and uncertainty,
How would you characterize this period in US China relations.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I think this is probably about the worst relationship that
I have seen since nineteen seventy two one Richard Nixon
visited Beiji. The two countries are engaged in the economic war,
including tread war, including technology war, which is much more
(02:01):
intensified than twenty eighteen when the first trade war started.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Do you feel that personally as well as as an
investor and a financier. I asked that because you were
personally part of the moment of openness between China and
the US. You were one of the first Chinese students
to go and study in the US. You were perfectly
placed to take advantage of the free market coming to
(02:30):
China and to be a bridge in many ways between
China and America.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yes, I was, and I felt lucky to be part
of it. When China first opened up after the establishment
of diplomatic relationship between China and the United States, in
nineteen seventy nine. I went to America in ninety eighty,
(02:54):
and I was very much a beneficiary of this relationship.
But I think we're at the point where America would
try to do everything possible to contain China. The relationship
was very good when China was far behind the United
(03:15):
States in economic size, and at that time it was
a honeymoon period because America didn't feel threatened by China
anyway at all, and America in fact helped China develop.
But it became quite obvious by the first mister Trump's
(03:35):
term that China was gradually catching up with the United
States in economic size. And America is very much used
to being number one economic power in the world in
the past one hundred and fifty years, and that growth
by China itself is perceived as a threat to the
(04:01):
supremacy of the United States.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So can America successfully keep China from catching up or
overtaking it? Because I know you've said in the past
that you don't think that America can really hurt China
too much more than around the edges the periphery.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yes, I did say so, and in fact, in twenty
nineteen I published an article in Foreign Affairs. The title
of the article was the Unwinnable Trade War. I said
that the only country that can contain China is China
(04:41):
itself by making policy blunders, and I don't think that
any other country, including the United States, will be able
to do so. A trade war is not good for anyone,
and certainly not for China. But I think China is
in need of shifting its growth model away from dependence
(05:06):
on esports in the direction of private consumption. Private consumption
accounts for less than forty percent of China's GDP compared
to sixty eight percent for the United States, and China
has depended on esports for economic growth for too long.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Let's talk about your own life and the extraordinary story
that you tell in your book Out of the Go
be my story of China and America. It's about the
first forty years of your life, essentially a searing tale
of growing up during the Cultural Revolution. What kind of
home were you born into in Beijing in nineteen fifty four.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Oh, my parents or clerks in the Chinese bureaucracy. My
father was customers officer and my mother was a secretary.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Would you call it middle class?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
There was no such a concept as middle class in
China at the time, and China was an egalitarian society
when I was a child, which meant that everybody was
equally poor.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I was struck by reading that. Even as a small child,
you became aware that there was not enough food to
eat at home. Your mother was always the last to eat,
and you could see the difference in her face and
her body right.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
She was seriously male nourished. She would be the last
one to eat at dinner table, just eating whatever left
over because there was a full shortage all across country.
It was the so called greatly Forward of nineteen fifty eight.
It was a disastrous policy failure. During that period time
(07:01):
many people start to death. Estimates vary from twenty million
to thirty six minute. Even in Beijing, the capital of
the city, people didn't have enough to eat, including my family.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
You describe also this collective effort that you see around you,
and that involves your family as well, where everyone is
collecting scrap metal, the little pieces of their stoves and
anything they can find and throwing them into I mean,
not what you could describe as a bad yeah, I
mean makeshift, totally makeshift to be part of an effort
(07:38):
to make steel, a national effort to make steel.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, it was a drive to increase steel production all
across the country, so the entire population was mobilized to
do so. And I was just about four or five
(08:02):
years old, and I remembered many things related to that campaign,
including basically knocking steel accessories on your stove and on
your door and everything, and threw them into backyard furnaces
to make steel. In the end, of course, you make
(08:27):
wastes because none of the still made by backyard furnaces
was useful. But it was a national fever to catch
up with more advanced countries in still production.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And were your parents fully signed up to that? Were
they true believers in Chairman Mao?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
At that point I have no way of knowing because
I was too small, but everybody was involved.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, But later on I think you realize that they
were not fully signed up to all of this, that
they were unhappy about some of what they saw, including
you being sent away into the countryside. Later didn't your
father say to you at one point that he had
lost his education during the when he joined the communists,
(09:17):
but he didn't think his children would lose their education, correct?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And this is the only time I detested some happiness
in what he tells me. And he said that we
joined the revolution for the purpose of getting a better
knife for our children. We didn't realize he said that
(09:42):
our children would not have an education either, And that
was when I was just about to be sent to
the Govie Desert at the age of fifteen to do
hard labor.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
But your education had stopped, hadn't it at the age
of twelve.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yes. It was very chaotic period of time in the
Chinese history, And honestly, this is the reason why I
wrote my memoir, because I think that period of history,
horrific as it was, should be remembered less we forget
and repeat that history. And my school ended when I
(10:20):
was twelve, just about to graduate from elementary school, and
then the entire country the school system was shut down. Initially,
we were very happy because we thought, well, this was
going to be a vacation. But I didn't know this vacation,
so called vacation, lasted as long as ten years, so
(10:43):
I and my peers were deprived of a formal education
during that period of time. The Cultural Revolution, the so
called cultural revolution, he was really culturally going backwards. I
was able to pick up education after ten years. For
most my peers it was forever, because if you lose
(11:06):
your schooling for ten years, it's exceedingly difficult to pick
up if you have not kept up studying by yourselves.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
We'll have more from Michelle's interview with Wayjan Shan after
the break.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Take us back to being a young teenager still in
Beijing as the Cultural Revolution is truly setting in. You
seem to have been caught up in the fervor of
it with your friends. You do record that there's this
moment that does make you feel sick to the stomach
when you see an elderly woman, the vice principal of
(11:52):
a school, being beaten to death.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
That was the most horrific scene I had ever seen
in my life by that stage, to see somebody so
brutally beaten by a group of teenage girls, it was
hard to watch. As I recorded in the book, we
(12:15):
saw it and then we quickly left because we couldn't
bear it. And there was so much milence during the
early days of the Cortron Revolution. It was just horrible.
Many people died in that month of August in nineteen
sixty six as students rebuilt against their teachers or anybody
(12:38):
of authority, and many students resorting to miners against their teachers.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And when you went away, when you were sent to
Inner Mongolia in nineteen sixty nine, this was I think
about sixteen million other Chinese teenagers.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
About ten percent of China's urban population.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Was sent from the cities to the countryside's.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Most massive deurbanization. Uh, you know, in human history, I think.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
But despite having seen the violence, you write in the
book that at the moment you're being sent off, you
are full of life, energy, ambitious and hope. Did you
see it as a new adventure.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I was a teenager and to leave my parents and
to do something all on my own, it was exciting initially.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And what was the reality in the Gobi desert?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
It was very harsh. We had to do very hard labor.
The living conditions were horrorful. The weather was already very cold,
and there was never enough to eat. So very quickly
we became disillusioned. But we couldn't get out of that place.
(13:51):
There was no freedom to leave, so I ended up
spending many years in the Gobi desert.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
What was the what was the conversation amongst you and
the other boys you were with. Did people talk about rebelling?
Speaker 3 (14:06):
We were not so conscious of thinking about that. We
were having banquets every day by talking about good food.
We would talk about what kind of good food that
you could get if you go back to a restaurant
(14:26):
in Beijing, even though restaurants were very basic and there
were very few in Beijing at the time, but we
were so far away from our homes in Beijing, so
that's all we could talk about every day. At the time,
I had very strong desire that somebody would invent a
drug so that you take it you would not feel
(14:48):
hungry anymore. I had no idea many years later that
people actually developed such a drug. One food became too plenty.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
How did you manage to read and what did you read?
Given that part of the Cultural Revolution was against learning.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
And there was very little time to read after days
of hard work. But I was very curious, and I
also thought that someday some knowledge would be useful. But
mind you, there were no books, so I just read
(15:30):
whatever books I could laim my hands on, and therefore
my education self study was totally chaotic and random and
no system at all. At one time, I didn't have
any books to read. The only thing available was the
Insecticide Manual, so I read it for probably two weeks,
(15:54):
and I became very familiar with insecticide, and even to
this day, I wouldn't have some knowledge about how to
use insecticide after the break.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Sean talks about his life after he left the desert.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
You finally came back to Beijing in nineteen seventy five.
What did you find on your return of the state
of your family, the city.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, the city was the same, but my family was
largely dispersed when I went to the Gobi Desert in
the Mongolia. My sister was sent to another remote part
of China. My mother was sent to it another remote
part of China. My father and my younger brother stayed
(16:53):
in the city. So in nineteen seventy five, when I
went back to Beijing, we finally became reunited after six
long years.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And the reason you managed to get out of the
Gobi Desert was because you had passed a test that
enabled you to be one of the lucky few to
go to college.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
It was a strange system that candidates to go to
college were elected, were voted to take that opportunity. Find
the people around you. So I was lucky enough that
(17:35):
my friends and the peers around me gave me modes,
so I was able to eventually get out.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
And then Chairman Wau died in nineteen seventy six, which
was a key moment not only for China but also
in your own life. Do you think that a younger
generation in China today are fully aware of the extent
of the cruelties of that time.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
For those who really want to learn about that period
of time, they should be able to get a very
good picture of what happened. But as you say, it's
not taught in the school, so it's not in the
general awareness of the younger generation. I will give you
(18:25):
example of this. I was invited to be an independent
director of a bank in shan Zen, and such a
position had to be approved by regulators, so I had
to fill out some forms. After we submitted the documents
(18:49):
the forms, a question came, the question was why did
you not fill out middle school? I asked mysel secretary
to respond to say, I have never been to middle
school or high school or secondary education. And then the
second question came, the question was why not? And I
(19:14):
thought this person must have known nothing about the Cultural Revolution,
so I answered by email for this question, you will
have to ask the great leader Chairman Mouth.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Does this lack of teaching about basic facts to do
with the impact of the Cultural Revolution disappoint you because
the Communist Party has officially repudiated Yes, the Cultural Revolution.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I don't think that it's so necessary for the entire
population to fail in the past, but of course this
should not be removed from our consciousness, and that's the
reason I wrote the book. It turns out most of
my readers are young people. Many young people come to
(20:09):
me and to say, my parents went through the same thing,
but they never tell us much. They have very strong
curiosity to learn what their parents' experience, which I think
is very good.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
When you came to the US, where you were then
taught by Janet Yellen in California, what made the biggest
impression on you?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I was honestly quite dazzled by America when I first arrived.
It was so developed in a way I read about
but never saw with my own eyes. It was extremely impressive.
The infrastructure was first rate, especially the highway system. Everything
(20:59):
was very impressive. And I used to Berkeley, where I
studied for my PhD. What impressed me was how liberal
it was. You under's nickname for Berkeley, the People's Republic
of Berkeley, and indeed it was true to that nickname.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I think there were times when in America the Gobi
Desert experiences came back to you. Wasn't there a moment
when you heard people using the expression bolt and you
remembered what that actually meant to you?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Correct? When I was in the Gobi in winterheim, there
was no fuel and there was no heating, and the
only source of fuel was dried common yourrors. So we
would spend hours in the Gobi trying to collect tried commoneurs,
(22:02):
and then we burned the combineurs right before bedtime to
give us enough heat to remove our clothes before getting
into or killed for the night. So when I heard
this version Booth, I thought that thing used to be
so dear for us.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You did go back to the Gobe Desert, you saw
those places again in two thousand and five. Yes, what
was left that you remembered?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Most of the shelters we built, the barriers were built
for ourselves or washed away by weather and rain. Because
it was all clay, mud and straw. Very few people
of my generation were still there. When I was near,
(22:51):
our farm had about three hundred people, and now only
a couple were there. Their life was better because this
couple we're raising some pigs and sell the piglets to
other farmers. A great improvement from my Goby days, but
(23:15):
it was still very poor.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
And the difference between your life and theirs, how do
you reconcile yourself to that. Your life is almost on
a completely different it's a panet now with all your
successes in business.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, you find common rules. My best friends are friends
from the Gobi Desert. We suffer together, we survived together.
We took care of each other. And most my friends
live in the bottom of the society in China today
(23:51):
because without education you wouldn't be able to make much
art of your life, even after the Orful Revolution, but
we're still the best friends. In fact, there are some
photographs I included in the book taken by a friend
of mine from the Gobi Desert, and some of the
(24:16):
photos are accepted by m Plus Museum to be displayed
starting July the twenty eighth. I sent the invitation to
my Gobi friends, all of them. I'm very excited about it.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Speaking of Hong Kong, this is the city that you've
made your home. What would you say has been the
impact of the National Security Law brought in five years ago.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I think that it is restored a calm in the city.
In twenty nineteen, the city was as chaotic as what
I saw during the thirty days of the Colorful Revolution.
There was violence, there was chaos, Traffic was stopped, and
(25:11):
my wife and I were somewhat fearful of going out
onto the streets speaking Mandaring because some Mandarin speakers were
beaten up on the streets for speaking the put On
Mendoring dialect. And there was a very strong, antime maintained
(25:32):
tone among the protesters at that time, and we actually
considered moving somewhere else because we didn't feel that Hong
Kong was very safe. And I compared Hong Kong's National
Security Law with that of the UK. I don't see
it to be any more dracooning than the UK's law,
(25:56):
and most people who would not be affected by.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It, but someone like Jimmy Lai, who has called you
a friend, someone you knew over many years in business
in this city. You're almost the same age. It's had
a terrible impact on him. He's under trial under this
law and he could face very serious consequences, even a
(26:22):
life sentence. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You know?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
In the trial, one thing was brought up, and that
is in twenty nineteen, I wrote an article which has
sent to Jimmy for publication in his newspaper. The title
of the article was democracy hijacked in Hong Kong, because
(26:54):
in twenty fourteen, China proposed universal suffrage for Hong Kong pandems,
and of course Jimmy was a leader or part of
that camp was beminly op posed and eventually beatoled this measure.
(27:17):
And I spoke with some of them and I said
nothing is perfect and you need to let the door open.
In any case, I sent this article and he wouldn't
take it. He told me that he didn't agree with me.
(27:39):
And then I sent it to the Ft, which published it.
And then the chief editor of the newspaper, Apple Daily
called me and said, Shan, we're very surprised that the
Ft took your article. And I said, welcome to democracy.
(28:00):
In a democracy, I may disagree with you, but I
would defend your right to speak, and I think that's
very important. That's the true democracy.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
But Jimmy La hasn't had his right to speak or
doesn't have a right to speak anymore because of this law.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
And I think that for legal matters, it's not for
you and I to oppin what is the right thing.
I truly think that the rule of law in Hong
Kong is very much alive, and that's very important for
(28:41):
Hong Kong because that's the essence of the so called
one country, two systems.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Finally, I wonder what aspects of your go be desert
years are still with you today. Does the experience come
back to you in your sleep? Is it there in
your habits, in how you see the world?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
In some ways, yes, you know, for many years, even
decades after I came back from the Govie, I very
often would have a dream that letting me out of
the go Bee was just a mistake, a bureaucratic error,
(29:23):
and I had to go back, and I would wake
up frightened, very fearful. So once you had the experience
like that, it would be with you for your entire life.
Nothing is harder, nothing is tougher than those years, and
therefore everything else. I do you any hardship, any difficulties
(29:48):
that I encounter doesn't seem too so hard, Doctor w.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Johnshan, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
It's pleasure. This is the Big Take.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanh. This conversation was part
of the Bloomberg Weekend Interview, where hose Michelle Hussain speaks
to influential voices in politics, business and culture from around
the globe. You can find an annotated transcript of this
interview with way Johan Shan, as well as an archive
of past conversations with leaders like Elon Musk and UK
(30:23):
Prime Minister Keir Starmer at Bloomberg dot com, slash Weekend
or in the Bloomberg Gap. Our special thanks to Jessica
Beck and Ed Johnson. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend.
Boo, Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Wanha and this is the Big Take Asia
from Bloomberg News Today. In the show, a conversation with
Waijuan Shan, a Chinese economist, businessman, and author based in
Hong Kong. Michelle Hussain, and editor at large for Bloomberg Weekend,
sat down with Sean in Bloomberg's Hong Kong office in June.
Shawn's life has been one of extraordinary contrasts, from doing
(00:31):
hard labor in the Gobi Desert to being taught by
Janet Yellen and becoming one of Hong Kong's most prominent
investors Today. Sean runs PAG, one of the largest private
equity firms in Asia, with more than fifty five billion
dollars in assets under management. In this interview, Sean talks
about everything from his childhood during the Cultural Revolution to
(00:53):
Trump's trade battle with China. Here's Michelle's edited conversation with
Wai John Shan, co founder and executive chairman of pg.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Doctor Wai Jianshan, I'm really pleased to be doing this
because I think yours is a very important story and perspective.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Thank you so very much, I mean disappoint you.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
No, I don't think that's possible. You know both China
and America intimately. Indeed, you called your memoir a story
of China and America. With months of tariff threats and uncertainty,
How would you characterize this period in US China relations.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I think this is probably about the worst relationship that
I have seen since nineteen seventy two one Richard Nixon
visited Beiji. The two countries are engaged in the economic war,
including tread war, including technology war, which is much more
(02:01):
intensified than twenty eighteen when the first trade war started.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Do you feel that personally as well as as an
investor and a financier. I asked that because you were
personally part of the moment of openness between China and
the US. You were one of the first Chinese students
to go and study in the US. You were perfectly
placed to take advantage of the free market coming to
(02:30):
China and to be a bridge in many ways between
China and America.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yes, I was, and I felt lucky to be part
of it. When China first opened up after the establishment
of diplomatic relationship between China and the United States, in
nineteen seventy nine. I went to America in ninety eighty,
(02:54):
and I was very much a beneficiary of this relationship.
But I think we're at the point where America would
try to do everything possible to contain China. The relationship
was very good when China was far behind the United
(03:15):
States in economic size, and at that time it was
a honeymoon period because America didn't feel threatened by China
anyway at all, and America in fact helped China develop.
But it became quite obvious by the first mister Trump's
(03:35):
term that China was gradually catching up with the United
States in economic size. And America is very much used
to being number one economic power in the world in
the past one hundred and fifty years, and that growth
by China itself is perceived as a threat to the
(04:01):
supremacy of the United States.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So can America successfully keep China from catching up or
overtaking it? Because I know you've said in the past
that you don't think that America can really hurt China
too much more than around the edges the periphery.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yes, I did say so, and in fact, in twenty
nineteen I published an article in Foreign Affairs. The title
of the article was the Unwinnable Trade War. I said
that the only country that can contain China is China
(04:41):
itself by making policy blunders, and I don't think that
any other country, including the United States, will be able
to do so. A trade war is not good for anyone,
and certainly not for China. But I think China is
in need of shifting its growth model away from dependence
(05:06):
on esports in the direction of private consumption. Private consumption
accounts for less than forty percent of China's GDP compared
to sixty eight percent for the United States, and China
has depended on esports for economic growth for too long.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Let's talk about your own life and the extraordinary story
that you tell in your book Out of the Go
be my story of China and America. It's about the
first forty years of your life, essentially a searing tale
of growing up during the Cultural Revolution. What kind of
home were you born into in Beijing in nineteen fifty four.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Oh, my parents or clerks in the Chinese bureaucracy. My
father was customers officer and my mother was a secretary.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Would you call it middle class?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
There was no such a concept as middle class in
China at the time, and China was an egalitarian society
when I was a child, which meant that everybody was
equally poor.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I was struck by reading that. Even as a small child,
you became aware that there was not enough food to
eat at home. Your mother was always the last to eat,
and you could see the difference in her face and
her body right.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
She was seriously male nourished. She would be the last
one to eat at dinner table, just eating whatever left
over because there was a full shortage all across country.
It was the so called greatly Forward of nineteen fifty eight.
It was a disastrous policy failure. During that period time
(07:01):
many people start to death. Estimates vary from twenty million
to thirty six minute. Even in Beijing, the capital of
the city, people didn't have enough to eat, including my family.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
You describe also this collective effort that you see around you,
and that involves your family as well, where everyone is
collecting scrap metal, the little pieces of their stoves and
anything they can find and throwing them into I mean,
not what you could describe as a bad yeah, I
mean makeshift, totally makeshift to be part of an effort
(07:38):
to make steel, a national effort to make steel.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, it was a drive to increase steel production all
across the country, so the entire population was mobilized to
do so. And I was just about four or five
(08:02):
years old, and I remembered many things related to that campaign,
including basically knocking steel accessories on your stove and on
your door and everything, and threw them into backyard furnaces
to make steel. In the end, of course, you make
(08:27):
wastes because none of the still made by backyard furnaces
was useful. But it was a national fever to catch
up with more advanced countries in still production.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And were your parents fully signed up to that? Were
they true believers in Chairman Mao?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
At that point I have no way of knowing because
I was too small, but everybody was involved.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, But later on I think you realize that they
were not fully signed up to all of this, that
they were unhappy about some of what they saw, including
you being sent away into the countryside. Later didn't your
father say to you at one point that he had
lost his education during the when he joined the communists,
(09:17):
but he didn't think his children would lose their education, correct?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And this is the only time I detested some happiness
in what he tells me. And he said that we
joined the revolution for the purpose of getting a better
knife for our children. We didn't realize he said that
(09:42):
our children would not have an education either, And that
was when I was just about to be sent to
the Govie Desert at the age of fifteen to do
hard labor.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
But your education had stopped, hadn't it at the age
of twelve.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yes. It was very chaotic period of time in the
Chinese history, And honestly, this is the reason why I
wrote my memoir, because I think that period of history,
horrific as it was, should be remembered less we forget
and repeat that history. And my school ended when I
(10:20):
was twelve, just about to graduate from elementary school, and
then the entire country the school system was shut down. Initially,
we were very happy because we thought, well, this was
going to be a vacation. But I didn't know this vacation,
so called vacation, lasted as long as ten years, so
(10:43):
I and my peers were deprived of a formal education
during that period of time. The Cultural Revolution, the so
called cultural revolution, he was really culturally going backwards. I
was able to pick up education after ten years. For
most my peers it was forever, because if you lose
(11:06):
your schooling for ten years, it's exceedingly difficult to pick
up if you have not kept up studying by yourselves.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
We'll have more from Michelle's interview with Wayjan Shan after
the break.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Take us back to being a young teenager still in
Beijing as the Cultural Revolution is truly setting in. You
seem to have been caught up in the fervor of
it with your friends. You do record that there's this
moment that does make you feel sick to the stomach
when you see an elderly woman, the vice principal of
(11:52):
a school, being beaten to death.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
That was the most horrific scene I had ever seen
in my life by that stage, to see somebody so
brutally beaten by a group of teenage girls, it was
hard to watch. As I recorded in the book, we
(12:15):
saw it and then we quickly left because we couldn't
bear it. And there was so much milence during the
early days of the Cortron Revolution. It was just horrible.
Many people died in that month of August in nineteen
sixty six as students rebuilt against their teachers or anybody
(12:38):
of authority, and many students resorting to miners against their teachers.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And when you went away, when you were sent to
Inner Mongolia in nineteen sixty nine, this was I think
about sixteen million other Chinese teenagers.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
About ten percent of China's urban population.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Was sent from the cities to the countryside's.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Most massive deurbanization. Uh, you know, in human history, I think.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
But despite having seen the violence, you write in the
book that at the moment you're being sent off, you
are full of life, energy, ambitious and hope. Did you
see it as a new adventure.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I was a teenager and to leave my parents and
to do something all on my own, it was exciting initially.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And what was the reality in the Gobi desert?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
It was very harsh. We had to do very hard labor.
The living conditions were horrorful. The weather was already very cold,
and there was never enough to eat. So very quickly
we became disillusioned. But we couldn't get out of that place.
(13:51):
There was no freedom to leave, so I ended up
spending many years in the Gobi desert.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
What was the what was the conversation amongst you and
the other boys you were with. Did people talk about rebelling?
Speaker 3 (14:06):
We were not so conscious of thinking about that. We
were having banquets every day by talking about good food.
We would talk about what kind of good food that
you could get if you go back to a restaurant
(14:26):
in Beijing, even though restaurants were very basic and there
were very few in Beijing at the time, but we
were so far away from our homes in Beijing, so
that's all we could talk about every day. At the time,
I had very strong desire that somebody would invent a
drug so that you take it you would not feel
(14:48):
hungry anymore. I had no idea many years later that
people actually developed such a drug. One food became too plenty.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
How did you manage to read and what did you read?
Given that part of the Cultural Revolution was against learning.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
And there was very little time to read after days
of hard work. But I was very curious, and I
also thought that someday some knowledge would be useful. But
mind you, there were no books, so I just read
(15:30):
whatever books I could laim my hands on, and therefore
my education self study was totally chaotic and random and
no system at all. At one time, I didn't have
any books to read. The only thing available was the
Insecticide Manual, so I read it for probably two weeks,
(15:54):
and I became very familiar with insecticide, and even to
this day, I wouldn't have some knowledge about how to
use insecticide after the break.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Sean talks about his life after he left the desert.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
You finally came back to Beijing in nineteen seventy five.
What did you find on your return of the state
of your family, the city.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, the city was the same, but my family was
largely dispersed when I went to the Gobi Desert in
the Mongolia. My sister was sent to another remote part
of China. My mother was sent to it another remote
part of China. My father and my younger brother stayed
(16:53):
in the city. So in nineteen seventy five, when I
went back to Beijing, we finally became reunited after six
long years.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And the reason you managed to get out of the
Gobi Desert was because you had passed a test that
enabled you to be one of the lucky few to
go to college.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
It was a strange system that candidates to go to
college were elected, were voted to take that opportunity. Find
the people around you. So I was lucky enough that
(17:35):
my friends and the peers around me gave me modes,
so I was able to eventually get out.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
And then Chairman Wau died in nineteen seventy six, which
was a key moment not only for China but also
in your own life. Do you think that a younger
generation in China today are fully aware of the extent
of the cruelties of that time.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
For those who really want to learn about that period
of time, they should be able to get a very
good picture of what happened. But as you say, it's
not taught in the school, so it's not in the
general awareness of the younger generation. I will give you
(18:25):
example of this. I was invited to be an independent
director of a bank in shan Zen, and such a
position had to be approved by regulators, so I had
to fill out some forms. After we submitted the documents
(18:49):
the forms, a question came, the question was why did
you not fill out middle school? I asked mysel secretary
to respond to say, I have never been to middle
school or high school or secondary education. And then the
second question came, the question was why not? And I
(19:14):
thought this person must have known nothing about the Cultural Revolution,
so I answered by email for this question, you will
have to ask the great leader Chairman Mouth.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Does this lack of teaching about basic facts to do
with the impact of the Cultural Revolution disappoint you because
the Communist Party has officially repudiated Yes, the Cultural Revolution.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I don't think that it's so necessary for the entire
population to fail in the past, but of course this
should not be removed from our consciousness, and that's the
reason I wrote the book. It turns out most of
my readers are young people. Many young people come to
(20:09):
me and to say, my parents went through the same thing,
but they never tell us much. They have very strong
curiosity to learn what their parents' experience, which I think
is very good.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
When you came to the US, where you were then
taught by Janet Yellen in California, what made the biggest
impression on you?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I was honestly quite dazzled by America when I first arrived.
It was so developed in a way I read about
but never saw with my own eyes. It was extremely impressive.
The infrastructure was first rate, especially the highway system. Everything
(20:59):
was very impressive. And I used to Berkeley, where I
studied for my PhD. What impressed me was how liberal
it was. You under's nickname for Berkeley, the People's Republic
of Berkeley, and indeed it was true to that nickname.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I think there were times when in America the Gobi
Desert experiences came back to you. Wasn't there a moment
when you heard people using the expression bolt and you
remembered what that actually meant to you?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Correct? When I was in the Gobi in winterheim, there
was no fuel and there was no heating, and the
only source of fuel was dried common yourrors. So we
would spend hours in the Gobi trying to collect tried commoneurs,
(22:02):
and then we burned the combineurs right before bedtime to
give us enough heat to remove our clothes before getting
into or killed for the night. So when I heard
this version Booth, I thought that thing used to be
so dear for us.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You did go back to the Gobe Desert, you saw
those places again in two thousand and five. Yes, what
was left that you remembered?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Most of the shelters we built, the barriers were built
for ourselves or washed away by weather and rain. Because
it was all clay, mud and straw. Very few people
of my generation were still there. When I was near,
(22:51):
our farm had about three hundred people, and now only
a couple were there. Their life was better because this
couple we're raising some pigs and sell the piglets to
other farmers. A great improvement from my Goby days, but
(23:15):
it was still very poor.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
And the difference between your life and theirs, how do
you reconcile yourself to that. Your life is almost on
a completely different it's a panet now with all your
successes in business.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, you find common rules. My best friends are friends
from the Gobi Desert. We suffer together, we survived together.
We took care of each other. And most my friends
live in the bottom of the society in China today
(23:51):
because without education you wouldn't be able to make much
art of your life, even after the Orful Revolution, but
we're still the best friends. In fact, there are some
photographs I included in the book taken by a friend
of mine from the Gobi Desert, and some of the
(24:16):
photos are accepted by m Plus Museum to be displayed
starting July the twenty eighth. I sent the invitation to
my Gobi friends, all of them. I'm very excited about it.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Speaking of Hong Kong, this is the city that you've
made your home. What would you say has been the
impact of the National Security Law brought in five years ago.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I think that it is restored a calm in the city.
In twenty nineteen, the city was as chaotic as what
I saw during the thirty days of the Colorful Revolution.
There was violence, there was chaos, Traffic was stopped, and
(25:11):
my wife and I were somewhat fearful of going out
onto the streets speaking Mandaring because some Mandarin speakers were
beaten up on the streets for speaking the put On
Mendoring dialect. And there was a very strong, antime maintained
(25:32):
tone among the protesters at that time, and we actually
considered moving somewhere else because we didn't feel that Hong
Kong was very safe. And I compared Hong Kong's National
Security Law with that of the UK. I don't see
it to be any more dracooning than the UK's law,
(25:56):
and most people who would not be affected by.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It, but someone like Jimmy Lai, who has called you
a friend, someone you knew over many years in business
in this city. You're almost the same age. It's had
a terrible impact on him. He's under trial under this
law and he could face very serious consequences, even a
(26:22):
life sentence. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You know?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
In the trial, one thing was brought up, and that
is in twenty nineteen, I wrote an article which has
sent to Jimmy for publication in his newspaper. The title
of the article was democracy hijacked in Hong Kong, because
(26:54):
in twenty fourteen, China proposed universal suffrage for Hong Kong pandems,
and of course Jimmy was a leader or part of
that camp was beminly op posed and eventually beatoled this measure.
(27:17):
And I spoke with some of them and I said
nothing is perfect and you need to let the door open.
In any case, I sent this article and he wouldn't
take it. He told me that he didn't agree with me.
(27:39):
And then I sent it to the Ft, which published it.
And then the chief editor of the newspaper, Apple Daily
called me and said, Shan, we're very surprised that the
Ft took your article. And I said, welcome to democracy.
(28:00):
In a democracy, I may disagree with you, but I
would defend your right to speak, and I think that's
very important. That's the true democracy.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
But Jimmy La hasn't had his right to speak or
doesn't have a right to speak anymore because of this law.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
And I think that for legal matters, it's not for
you and I to oppin what is the right thing.
I truly think that the rule of law in Hong
Kong is very much alive, and that's very important for
(28:41):
Hong Kong because that's the essence of the so called
one country, two systems.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Finally, I wonder what aspects of your go be desert
years are still with you today. Does the experience come
back to you in your sleep? Is it there in
your habits, in how you see the world?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
In some ways, yes, you know, for many years, even
decades after I came back from the Govie, I very
often would have a dream that letting me out of
the go Bee was just a mistake, a bureaucratic error,
(29:23):
and I had to go back, and I would wake
up frightened, very fearful. So once you had the experience
like that, it would be with you for your entire life.
Nothing is harder, nothing is tougher than those years, and
therefore everything else. I do you any hardship, any difficulties
(29:48):
that I encounter doesn't seem too so hard, Doctor w.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Johnshan, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
It's pleasure. This is the Big Take.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanh. This conversation was part
of the Bloomberg Weekend Interview, where hose Michelle Hussain speaks
to influential voices in politics, business and culture from around
the globe. You can find an annotated transcript of this
interview with way Johan Shan, as well as an archive
of past conversations with leaders like Elon Musk and UK
(30:23):
Prime Minister Keir Starmer at Bloomberg dot com, slash Weekend
or in the Bloomberg Gap. Our special thanks to Jessica
Beck and Ed Johnson. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend.
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