August 8, 2025 • 39 mins
Join hosts Damian Sassower and Vanessa Perdomo for a look at some of the latest headlines and stories in the business of sports.
Bloomberg Originals Chief Correspondent Jason Kelly joins to discuss the latest episode of "The Deal," which will feature DeMaurice Smith, former executive director of the NFL players association.
Then, Matt Winkelried, owner of Bleecker Trading, on this week's National Sports Collector Convention and boom in trading cards.
Plus, Sam Renouf, the founding CEO of Professional Triathletes Organization (PTO) discusses the need for financial compensation and safety for triathletes. As well as the $40 investment it received from SURJ, the sports arm of the Saudi Public Investment Fund.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is the Business of Sports. Sports are the greatest
unscripted show owner the next generation of players who really
grew up with tech and believe in tech. Your face
is your ticket, your face is your wallet, your face
is your access to a club.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
These are such iconic and important buildings for businesses.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
For fans, COVID was one of the best things that
ever happened at golf.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
The NFL is a bulletproof business.
Speaker 5 (00:31):
Racing is unique because there is absolutely no reason why
we can't compete with the guys.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Come well, it's pro pickleball? Real, Are people really going
to tune into this?
Speaker 5 (00:38):
If you're playing moneyball with a huge bag of money,
you're going to be really, really good.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports where we explore
the big money issues in the world of sports. I'm
Vanessa Prodomo alongside Damian sas Hour. Michael Barr will be
back next week. Coming up on the show, we'll talk
with the CEO of Professional Try Athletes Organization Sam Renoff,
a big new investment in how PTO wants to take
triathlons to the next level.
Speaker 6 (01:07):
The professional triathletes.
Speaker 7 (01:08):
They got together and said, look, our sport has grown
phenomenally since it got into the Olympic Games in two thousand,
but maybe the economics of the commercial side not quite
living up to his potential. And so we together formed
the PTO in the mirroring you know, the PGA Tour
and what they did in the sixties and the ATP
and the in tennis in the eighties. So that's how
it all came together. It was started by the athletes
(01:30):
for the athletes.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
We'll also talk trading card collectibles with the owner of
Bleaker Trading, Matt winklereaed. All that is straight ahead on
the Bloomberg Business of Sports. But first, while the NFL
is gearing up for the twenty twenty five regular season,
the NFL Players Association is trying to recover from a
series of scandals that led to the executive director, Lloyd
Howell to resign. Bloomberg Original's chief correspondent Jason Kelly recently
(01:53):
sat down with the former NFLPA executive Demorris Smith on
a recent episode of the Deal with Alex Rodriguez and
Jason Kelly. Here's a portion of that conversation.
Speaker 8 (02:03):
Even though you have those kind of battles on both
sides of the aisle, there is room for business, There
is room for compromise. But sometimes those compromises, as somebody
like Alex knows, your first year in the league was
the strike, right, and so you end up resolving or
coming to some sort of compromise on these on these
(02:24):
business deals. But I think every now and then people
forget that sometimes there's a preceding war and it's full
of personalities, it's it's full of intricate business decisions, but
also this idea that a group of people on one
side can have a good war with the people on
the other side, and sometimes good things come out of it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
That's former NFLPA executive director Demorris Smith speaking to Jason
Kelly and Alex Rodriguez on the latest episode of The Deal.
Jason joins Damien and me to talk more about what
the NFL could do to fight for change. Jason, welcome
back to the Bloomberg Business of Sports.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'd love being gassed up here in the Bloomberg Business
of Sports by both of you.
Speaker 9 (03:06):
Demorris Smith. Demorris Smith came on the Deal you got
to talk to us about, you know, the former NFL
Players Association head in today's day and age with what's
going on, Jason, What did he lay on you?
Speaker 10 (03:16):
I mean, what a character this guy is. I don't
know if you guys have had a chance to meet
him VP. I think you've met him maybe over the years.
So longtime head of the NFL PA, and was a
character in the job and is a character outside of it.
And now that he is really free to speak his mind,
he really does it. He's got a new book out.
It's called Turf Wars, The Fight for the Soul of
(03:36):
America's Game. He really goes there and gives a lot
of juicy behind the scenes tidbits about when he was there,
which I'm sure you guys have read into, you know,
on the show. It was an interesting conversation with him
because obviously my co host Alex Rodriguez has a very
unique perspective having been a player represented by a players Association. Obviously,
(03:59):
Marvin Miller was the legendary head of the PA on
on the baseball side. You know, Alex obviously worked very
closely with them when he was a player. But now
here's Alex Rodriguez, team owner in the NBA, in the WNBA,
you know, having to be on the other side of
the table, dealing with collective bargaining agreements, dealing with the
players associations, you know, both in men's basketball and women's basketball.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
So did you see Alex's brain kind of churning in
this conversation?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Absolutely, it was really it was really interesting because.
Speaker 10 (04:29):
You know, Alex and I talk a lot, you know,
on the show and off the show about you know,
all these cool roles that he can play in these
sorts of conversations, and you know, these are two guys
who you know, have obviously crossed paths over the years,
and so you could definitely see Alex asking questions and
asking some really good questions about different negotiations.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
That that d was leading.
Speaker 10 (04:51):
You know, he did the CBA back in twenty eleven,
I believe, and so sort of understanding how whim important
that job is. But to your point, now, Alex is
obviously looking at it from literally the other side of
the table. But one of the things that came out
very clearly in our conversation is how hard these jobs are.
(05:13):
These are really intense negotiations. You know, you are when
you're representing the players, you're representing a huge, wide swath
of you know, in his case, men who you know
want generally the same thing, but you know, also need
to literally collectively bargain. And on the other side of
the table you have Roger Goodell the commissioner, you have
(05:36):
the league officials. You also have you know, several dozen
owners who all have different perspectives. And so he talked
with us, and he talks a lot in the book
about Robert Kraft and sort of what he learned from him.
And you know, oftentimes these guys, this came out pretty
clearly from from d and you know Alex is given
this perspective as well. You know, it can be very
(05:59):
frowzious in the room and these are negotiations, but then
you know, at the end of the day you are
all in business together. And so I think navigating that
world of being adversaries when you're negotiating in contract, but
then also realizing that you are business partners at the
end of the day.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Well, the interesting thing there is like like your business partners,
but then at the end of the day. His book
is called The Fight for the Soul of you know, Football, Right,
So it's sort of they are going against each other
in a way. So I'm curious from his perspective of
what he talked about going against.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Them and what it was like.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Did he feel like they actually had a fight the
power Because the NFL and the owners hold so much power.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's a great question.
Speaker 10 (06:44):
I mean, listen, I think and this is where again
I'm just like always be selling my own show. But
you know, it is one thing we get into a
lot on the deal. Is this notion of the modern
athlete is in an entirely different position than he or
she was in you know, ten twenty, certainly thirty or
(07:05):
forty years ago. I do think the NFL and d
talks a bit about this has had to get religion
around how important the players are at the end of
the day, how important their safety is, how important their
well being is, how important their financial wellbeing is. Because
(07:29):
you know, at the end of the day, there is
no game, there is no NFL, they still have.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Less power than like the NBA, true than even the
MLB stars probably do.
Speaker 10 (07:41):
And I think, yeah, that's that would be an interesting debate.
I think the NBA is probably number one in terms
of the UH in terms of the athlete power.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I do think the NFL.
Speaker 10 (07:54):
I think what d would say is the NFL has
definitely made strides over the past call it five to
ten years, certainly further along than they were. But part
of that has been forced. And I think you bring
up a really good point, VP. Part of that has
been forced by what they see in the NBA. You
know that the NBA has had I think the NBA
players probably would say they've had a friendlier relationship with
(08:17):
Adam Silver than maybe the NFL players have had with
Roger Goodell. I don't want to put worth anybody's mouth,
but I think that's probably fair.
Speaker 9 (08:24):
Well, Jason, you know I have to ask you this, right,
I mean the Morris served as the NFL Player Association's
executive director for fourteen years, from two thousand and nine
to twenty twenty three, so in that time he oversaw
the twenty eleven NFL in lockout, the subsequent CBA negotiations
Deflate Gate. He was also involved in the negotiations for
a ct settlement for concussion related injury. Right, and you
(08:46):
talk about players well being and health, and given what
just happened here in New York City last month, I'm
just curious and maybe you didn't acknowledge it there, but
you know, during during your conversation, but would you, taking
a step back thing, think that the Morris was was
really truly focused on that at the time when that
agreement was settled, because you know, you look back and
(09:08):
you know, people have argued that the money just really
doesn't do service for the families and the people involved.
Speaker 10 (09:13):
I mean, I don't want to put words into his mouth.
I do think safety has been at the forefront of
just about every conversation for anyone who's representing the players.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I do.
Speaker 10 (09:26):
I think it's not controversial to say it has been
one of the sort of stiffest fights between, you know,
among the league, the owners and the players, and is continuing.
Speaker 9 (09:37):
I mean, the shooter wasn't even an NFL player, So
what are we really talking about. But nevertheless, the fact
that that's where you know, whether shoot arrived, it'syes's it's
just an amazing thing. And look, I mean, you know,
I guess you know, I just you know, we got
you here. I got to ask you what's the Morris
doing now? You know, what's he into? What's his life
look like? I mean, you know, what does he what
does he think about when he's lying in bed at night,
What does he look like in the morning.
Speaker 10 (09:57):
Well, I think he's relieved that he's not in this
job anymore, and you know there's there call. Yeah, So,
I mean, obviously there's been a lot that's happened subsequently
as well, with his success or his successor, you know,
resigning under a lot of pressure Lloyd Howell over a
conflict that that he had being associated or being an
employee or or a an advisor to the Carlile Group, which,
(10:20):
as you know, is one of the firms that has
been proved to buy approved to buy stakes in NFL teams.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
He resigned under some pressure.
Speaker 10 (10:30):
Our colleagues at ESPN have done an incredible job, the
investigative unit, you know, really uncovering a lot of what
was going on, not just with that, with that association
that Howell had with Carloiu Group, with some other indiscretions
shall we say that he had that he had along
the way, they've named an interim director David White. There
(10:52):
wash there were some reports that they might bring d
back in on an intern basis. Uh he I don't
know whether he officially declined that but he he.
Speaker 9 (11:03):
I'm checking Pabo towards finds out he did.
Speaker 10 (11:07):
Yeah, talk about someone else who's done an incredible job
on that story. You know, the reality is is that
we I think I speak for Alex when I say this.
We definitely got a sense from d that he is
glad to not be in the job. He's glad that
he did it, but the sort of what it took
out of him was a lot, and so I think he's,
(11:29):
you know, he's trying his next course, figuring out what
he what he wants to do next. I think writing
this book was a real process of a process of
processing and in a lot of ways, you know, sort
of what he went through and some of the things
that he did.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Well, it's interesting that they would even or there would
be reports that they consider it because is the book
not a burn it.
Speaker 11 (11:49):
To the ground type of thing?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Was there? What was the most shocking thing about it?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I mean, I think it was.
Speaker 10 (11:54):
I mean, you know, Damien said, Damian mentioned a couple
of different things, you know, calling out players, you know,
talking about negotiations that happened. I do think it's an
interesting question, you know, would would they actually go back
to someone who basically just like aired a little bit
of dirty laundry, maybe more than a little bit.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You know. I think that.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
It's all true, it's all honest, and and I think,
you know, one of the things that always came through
about d you know, having known him a little bit
before and Alex and I agree on this, and then
having had this conversation with him for the show, he
is who he is. And so I don't think anybody
in the NFL who's reading this book is shocked by
(12:41):
what he said, because they knew he was going to
say it. And I do think that's what made him
such a powerful advocate when he had the PA job,
was that he he was going there and and uh,
and that's part of his I think it's not just
part of his charm.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I think it's part of his effectiveness.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Our thanks to Bloomberg Original's chief correspondent Jason Kelly for
joining us today catch the latest episode of his show
The Deal with Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly, featuring former
NFLPA executive director de Morris Smith. You can listen to
the full episode on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get
your podcasts. Coming up. Ripping Wax with the owner of
(13:19):
sports memorabilia and collectible's company Bleeker Trading, or Damien Sassaur.
I'm Vanessa Perdomo. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business of
Sports from Bloomberg Radio around the world.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 9 (13:38):
This is the.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Bloomberg Business of Sports, where we explore the big money
issues in the world of sports. I'm Vanessa Perdomo alongside
Damien Sassaur. Michael Barr will be back next week. The
National Sports Collector's Convention wrapped up its event last weekend
in Rosemont, Illinois, and here to chat about the boom
and trading cards and more is the owner of Bleaker Trading,
Matt Winklreed. Matt, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business to Sports.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here,
all right.
Speaker 9 (14:02):
The market for collectiles, specifically sports trading cards is huge
and apparently rising. I mean the numbers I'm looking at
right now, it's approximately fourteen billion dollars in twenty twenty one,
but by you know, twenty thirty two, forty nine billion dollars,
that's what the market value.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
That is unbelievable.
Speaker 9 (14:20):
Talk to us about that growth and how Bleaker Trading
this positioned to get involved.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Absolutely, I mean it's really exciting to see what's going
on in the hobby. It's you know, the industry is
having a moment right when you look at what the
sports industry is doing with the media rights deals and
evaluations of teams. There is a tremendous amount of growth
happening in the hobby because there's it's direct link to
pop and how people follow sports or follow Pokemon followed
(14:45):
like what they.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Love to collect. So there's this great, great momentum in
the hobby in terms of how people are engaging with it.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Do you know what's interesting is I feel like I
hear about it now a lot more, you know, I mean, like,
as we were talking about it's growing right now, here
about it a lot more than I feel like I have.
Was there like a lull in the sort of like
digital age that people stopped collecting for a while and
did something kind of bring it back to this sense
of popular ability.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
I think what brought it back obviously was COVID.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Right everyone was stuck at home trying to figure out
what to do with themselves, and people pulling out their
old old binders.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Seeing oh my god, I have these old Pokemon cards.
Let's let's see what I can do with them really
got people back into the hobby. But in terms of like.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
The lull, I would say from just my own personal experience,
I definitely took a lull for like fifteen years from
when I was in middle school going into high school
and ultimately got back and got back into it last
year and then became a customer of Bleaker.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
So is there a like age then gap, like it's
kids and then like adults.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
I think it varies from person to person, but like
our demographic at our shop ranges from ten year olds
to seventy year olds.
Speaker 9 (15:54):
So it's interesting because when I grew up, you know,
it was the chase for you know, the Don Mattingly
rookie card, you know, or you know, and his fleet.
You wanted the fleet, you don't want the tops. And
then it was like you know, Mark McGuire and Wade
Bogs and you know, I guess Tim Vanessa's point, you know,
it did. We did have a lull, and I just
I'm curious. You know, you guys are both a little
bit younger than me. Pokemon trading cards. Is that kind
(16:14):
of like your generation, Like, was that a thing for y'all?
Because I remember my kids, you know, sweating that stuff,
and I wonder if that kind of set the stage
for this comeback in the industry.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
I mean for me, I was always a collector of
Pokemon for sure. In terms of my age demographic, I
would say it was a combination of you know, the
Michael Jordan era and the Pokemon.
Speaker 9 (16:33):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
The Pokemon craze was just absolutely outrageous.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
To my mom would always go wait at our local
toy store for packs, and she would call the toy
store to make sure, hey, keep a couple of a
side from me. But I would say Pokemon obviously had
this incredible run during the nineties early two thousands, but
sports cards really stayed true to what they were.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
But the interesting thing there, when we're talking about the
difference between Pokemon and sports trading cards. I was talking
to the Piece Say president earlier this year, Ryan Hodge
about it, and he said that even though trading sports
trading cards are getting a bigger share of the market,
Pokemon still is dominating the space absolutely.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Absolutely the same with our store too, right, we would say,
when you look at our sales.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Sixty percent of our sales our Pokemon TCG products.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Yeah, it's insane, like people really want it people, And
I think there's a nostalgia aspect to it, right at
least for me, Every time I opened a Pokemon pack,
I go back in time to when I was ten
years old, waking up in the morning on my birthday,
my mom having every single Pokemon pack she could possibly
get her hands on, and just ripping it and seeing
what I got.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Is there still that same value to it at auction
and things like that for Pokemon that there is for
sports memorabilia?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
I think the inherent value of the TCG products right
now is astronomically higher than it was ten years ago.
Speaker 9 (17:51):
All right, Matt, you got to answer this one for me, right,
I mean, I've seen these, I guess these memes, these
you know, tiktoks whatever, these kids opening old decks of cards,
and it is red, red hot, And you know, I
think about that, and I think about bleaker trading, and
specifically the name is bleaker trading. You know, you're facilitating
the movement of all these sports cards with collectibles, et cetera.
(18:13):
Do you take any inventory I mean like in your
I mean, do you have to take inventory to be
I guess a market maker, a trader of sports cards
or are you just connecting people like you know where
that you know nineteen fifty two tops Rookie Mickey Mantle
card is hiding you know you can help another investor
maybe you know, bit on it or get to it.
I mean, how do you guys work?
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Well, So we're primarily a retail shop, but we're also
more of an event space, and our mantra is we're
not just a card shop. We're a hospitality business. So
we're not helping you just find those cards. We're creating
a community around the hobby space and I think that's
what our bread and butter is right. We want people
to come hang out the shop, rip see what they get,
and if they get that they pull a big card,
(18:52):
they can either sell it to us or they can
grade it.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
They can how would you call it ripping?
Speaker 6 (18:56):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Rip, yes, so ripping wax is what they call it.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Yeah, that's industry, Tom.
Speaker 9 (19:00):
I wonder what the gum in some of those packs still,
by the way, it's still in in our junk wax
area we have we have like nineteen eighty nine Tops
Tops packs still with the gum in there.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
I don't advise to eat it, but it's still in there.
It's like it's like going back in time. It's really amazing.
But like ripping wax comes from back in the day,
those trading cards were wrapped in wax paper, so you
had to rip that open, and that's why it's called
ripping wax.
Speaker 9 (19:21):
I would always keep them protected. In mind some of
these cards, I mean the numbers I'm seeing million dollars,
two million dollars, three million dollar Michael Jordan card. I
mean you can't keep that in your house, can you.
I mean, like do you provide security and like safe
I guess, I mean like people could come and see
it under glass.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
I mean that's like it's like cards. Yeah, so cards
that we own are in our lock, show case or
in our safe. But in terms of like high value
cards like that, like the gem Mint ten nineteen fifty
two Mantle is held at either I forget which vault
it's at, but it's in a vault. So there are
companies that have vaulting services to where you can keep
(19:57):
those higher end items so you don't keep them in
your house. But I usually like to collect keep my
cards in my house because I just like I like
looking at them.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
I'm holding them, like that's what I would be.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
As we're talking about like these million dollar cards and
things like that. Caitlin Clark's rookie card just sold for
six hundred and sixty thousand dollars a couple of weeks ago,
and that went up from Damian three hundred and sixty
six thousand four months ago. Okay, so are we going
to see one of her card sell for a million
dollars this year? Do you think?
Speaker 4 (20:24):
I'd like to hope.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
So, I think it depends on the card obviously, I
mean her that card was the fall.
Speaker 9 (20:29):
Depends on how the fever doing the playoffs, if they
make the playoffs.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
Right, But it's also her, her fandom and her and
her popularity, right like that also is a driver of
the market. But you know her that that six hundred
and sixty thousand dollars card is her flawless shield and
that is like the coveted card that you're looking for
when you're opening that product. Right the uh, the Michael
Jordan Kobe that is on auction right now, that has
the the NBA the NBA shield on it. So it's
(20:54):
one of those things where it is the coveted card.
I don't, I don't I think that we can see
a Kate and Clargo for a million, if not this year.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
Next year.
Speaker 9 (21:02):
Well let me let me rid riddle me this. I mean,
how much of that increase, in your opinion, is you know,
due to the you know, the burgeoning popularity of the
w n b A itself, and how much of that
is really people thinking that, you know, Caitlin Clark is
just head and shoulders Michael Jordan above the rest.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Personally, I think it's a combination of both, combination of both.
Speaker 9 (21:23):
I mean, I mean that's a huge you're right, that's
a doubling in what four months. I mean, that's a
pretty you know, you don't see that every.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Day of the week.
Speaker 9 (21:29):
I guess it is it scarcity a supply, I mean
it's a one of one, yeah, so like it's there's
only one out there, right.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
So, but you look at the popularity popularity of these athletes,
so you know what they do on the field, but
also what they do off the field, and that their
engagement in in the hobby or in industry, what they're
doing from a business perspective, like there is inherent there's
tracking of like what they're doing that that is driving
their popularity in the value of their cards.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
And as we're talking about that, and obviously have to
note that it is the most the highest selling women's
card of all time, women's athlete card of all time.
Have you seen, you know, the kids or whoever's coming
into your store getting really into those WNBA packs as
well getting excited for.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
My god, yes, for everyone's car. We can't keep WNBA
in our shelves. It's awesome.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
I mean, I have a camera Brinks Auto of my
own in my collection and it's one of my favorite cards, honestly.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (22:21):
Well, now, my I mean you just so, Bleaker Trading
was around before you got involved, right, yes, So how'd
you get how'd you find them? How did you get
affiliated with the company? And what did you see in
that company that made you want to become an you know,
an equity shareholder.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
So it's funny.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
I got introduced to the company through my sibling. Actually,
I was trying to get back into the hobby and
my sibling texted me, was like, go check out the shop.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Bleaker trading, So.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Of course I go that day and bought my first
booster box in fifteen years, and immediately fell in love
with the shop, not just because it had access to cards,
but because I felt like I was part of a community.
Like I instantly felt welcome back into a hobby that
was very, very overwhelming to get back into, and I
(23:08):
felt at home. And that's our mantra right where collectors
call home. What I saw from the business was an
opportunity not just to be a car shop, but to
be a market mover in the in the in the space.
We are community driven and we try to do things
differently than everybody else.
Speaker 9 (23:25):
So are you trying to bring the West Village to
other cities across our country? Is that? Is that the vibe,
the feeling you get, You're trying to bring that West
Village kind of kitchy feel your comic.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
Books and sports cards to I'm assuming you're asking about expansion.
Speaker 9 (23:38):
Everything is on the task experience, I mean, but yes, yes,
and that's what I'm looking for. I think that is amazing.
If that's indeed why you what you see in the
vision you have for this company and taking things forward,
I mean, that is just awesome if you can bring
that to places like Miami in LA and I mean,
god knows those cities can I.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Mean, as a new owner, I'm coming in not just
to not to make changes, but to elevate what we
currently do best.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
And that is our vibe and our feeling and who
we are as a company.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
And what do you think though, like as a retail space,
what is your place in the market in terms of
what can you offer and what kind of you know,
share in the space do you really have in terms
of is it just somewhere people like have the community
buy cards or anything like that, or is it something
where you can actually build this empire, build business for
(24:23):
yourself in the space.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I think how we fit into the ecosystem.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
You know when you go to a lot of card
shops and you know, everyone has their own their own methodology,
their own mantra of like how they want their shop
to be. But like what we do differently is you know,
we try to make sure everyone feels welcome, whether you're
a veteran collector or a new collector. Like we try
to make sure that there's something there for everyone, whether it's.
Speaker 11 (24:46):
Or celebrity or Jos or celebrity.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Jo John's heard this.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Uh, and we can get into that if you want to.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
No, we want to make sure that little Jimmy when
he's buying a Pokemon pack of his sister is not
into collecting, but like wants something as well. She sees
a pack of ly and Stitch, or she sees a
Star Wars pack, like she can she can also engage
in the hobby. So our mission is to also drive,
you know, create a space for current collectors, but also
reach out to people that are interested in the hobby
(25:12):
that want to get in.
Speaker 11 (25:13):
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
I was when I was speaking to Ryan earlier this year,
the PCA president. He was telling me this idea of
trading cards in the space being tariff proof, almost like
this this safe where place where people are keeping their
money right now in the industry. Are you seeing? That
did make you a spike this year in.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
That I think it's now really become an alternative asset
class to to put your money because like the values
can can hold pretty strong.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I agree with that. Yeah, you guys got to come
to the shop.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I will next time. Joe Jones is there, please let
me know before the crowd.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
An excuse to hand down to the last. You have
my number now, so just assume me a tax I'll
make sure you get invited.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Our thanks to Matt weinkel Reid for joining us. He's
owner and head of operations for Blacker Trading. Up next,
the CEO of Professional triath Leates Organization Sam Renoff on
supporting the body and interest of professional endurance athletes, or
Damien Sassaur.
Speaker 11 (26:07):
I'm Vanessa Perdomo.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg
Radio around the world.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Thanks for joining us on the Bloomberg Business of Sports,
where we explore the big money issues in the world
of sports. I'm Vanessa Perdomo along with Damien Sassaur Michael
barr is off this week. The Professional Triathletes Organization or
PTO is an organization that represents non drafting professional triathletes.
It is owned by athletes looking to take the sport
(26:42):
of triathlon to the next level, and it recently got
a big investment to help it do just that. Joining
us now to talk more about the recent investment and
more is PTO founding Chief Executive Officer Sam Renoff, Sam,
Welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Good morning, it's great to be here.
Speaker 12 (27:00):
You are the founder and CEO of the Pro Triathletes Organization.
Now what gave you the idea to start the T
one hundred Triathlon World Tour?
Speaker 7 (27:12):
So I was the founding CEO of the idea, as
is so often the case in sports, actually came from
the athletes themselves. So they they were on the verge
of unionizing the professional triathletes. They got together and said, look,
our sport has grown phenomenally since it got into the
Olympic Games in two thousand, but maybe the you know,
the economics and the commercial side not quite living up
(27:32):
to his potential. And so we together formed the PTO
in the mirroring, you know, the PGA Tour and what
they did in the sixties and the ATP and the
in tennis in the eighties. So that's how it all
came together. It was started by the athletes for the athletes.
Speaker 11 (27:46):
So it's similar to the PDA Tour. So is this
this is sort of a league for try athletes? Is
that kind of how?
Speaker 7 (27:54):
Well, yes, that's like our business model is what we've created.
Were the players Association to use more of the sort
of the general term on behalf of all professional triathletes
out there, and rather than just unionizing and going and
sort of complaining to other events saying, hey, pay us more,
we thought that let's own our own economic destiny. Let's
raise venture capital and go and create our own league.
And that's exactly what we've done with a T one
(28:15):
hundred triathlon World Tour that we launched last year. So
we raised money a couple of years ago. We launched
in the middle of COVID. We were very fortunate to
found to find, excuse me, an incredible investor in Sir
Michael Morritz of Sequoia Capital, and he really recognized the
potential in triathlon and what we were doing.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
And as Baptist on our journey.
Speaker 9 (28:34):
So far, Sam, take us through what that tour looks like.
I'm seeing nine is it? Nine cities across the world.
I mean, places like Dubai and Vancouver, Cutter you know, Valencia, Spain,
you know, and you know, for me, I mean, I'm
really interested in what these weekends look like because it
really isn't just about the triathlon, is it. I Mean,
there are you know, activities for all levels of amateur
(28:55):
athletes to get involved.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Now exactly right.
Speaker 7 (28:58):
So these are mass participation festivals across swimming, cycling, and running,
three of the most participated sports in the world, and
you bring that all together with the triathlon as the
pinnacle moment. And so yeah, like you said, nine locations
this year with the T one hundred Tour. The investment
logic behind so Michael's investment on our rounds later is
that triathlon has one of the most, if not the
(29:19):
most valuable demographics in sport. It's almost become cliche to
be a triathlete, right, It's that super higher achiever. It's
the CEO of if IIV statistic forty four percent of
triathletes influence of financial decision in their business. And so
it's a really valuable audience. But like many nascent niche sports,
that audience was fragmented by the lack of cohesive products.
(29:41):
So you know, we got the Olympics every four years,
but outside of that, the audience is fragmented across thousands
of racists. So what we have done is create a
global tour that has the very best professional triathletes racing
head to head in a season long competition, you know,
copying Formula one or learning from Formula one and many
of the sports out there, and using that to create
a marketing platform to bring that incredibly valuable audience together
(30:03):
and ultimately monetize.
Speaker 9 (30:05):
It and for those in our audience. Just so, Michael Moritz,
I mean we're talking about a top venture capitalist here.
He's a board member at Google. He's a quite a capital.
I think he used to be the San Francisco Bureau
treece of time. And you know what's interesting to me
is in this latest round Surge Sports Investments. I mean Serge,
that's the pif, that's Saudi Arabia. I mean they're already
invested in a number of other you know, the Professional
(30:28):
Fighters League for example, in seven a side football. You
know what makes this investment different than those? Why were
they so interested in getting involved here?
Speaker 7 (30:36):
Yeah, so look, we were thrilled to have investor, of
course some Michael in the beginning, and then the caliber
of Surge and all these far more better known sports
than like little triathlon if we call it what it is.
But why Surge and the other investors that have joined
in this round, I think a couple of different reasons,
But It really goes back to as I said beforehand,
and if I use some Michael as the example, he
(30:56):
didn't invest as a passion project. He's not a triathlete.
It's not like one of these billionaires who liked their
sport and sort of just goes and puts money into it.
He invested because of a highly valuable but fragmented audience,
and if you had a different technological approach to it,
you could monetize it. And that's really what we've been
doing the last few years. Now forward fast forward to
today in this round we've just announced with Search coming
on board. I mean it's a financial decision by Surgeon.
(31:18):
They see the investment potential of an undercommercialized sport. But
part of their mandate also is to drive the Vision
twenty thirty in the Kingdom, and part of that is
about getting more participation. And so what better way to
get Saudi's off the couch and doing sport than swimming,
cycling and running the three sports of triathlon.
Speaker 12 (31:37):
Now, the structure of the T one hundred breakdown for
us for those who aren't familiar with the scoring and
the cash money that you can win in this sport.
Speaker 7 (31:47):
Yeah, so look this was, as we said before, an
undercommercialized sport. And although we have some of the greatest
athletes on the planet, the competing triathleon, some of our
athletes will even compete in the single discipline, so like
we have professional traat to ride in the Tour de
France and in professional cycling, we have run the triathletes
who run and they can qualify in the finals of
their athletics championship. So it's really really top caliber athletic performance.
(32:11):
But like many Olympic sports, as I said before, relatively
under commercialized. So we've sort to fixed that with a
new product and put millions of dollars of prize money
in the line to incentivize the best athletes to come
and compete head to head, which ultimately is fundamental to
the best sport. I mean, you're not going to take
the sport to the next step unless as fans, we
can see the best athletes competing head to head in
(32:33):
iconic locations as you referenced earlier. So we're in London,
we're in Singapore, in Dubai, we're in Vancouver, really exciting
locations that showcase the sport really copying, you know, as
I said, Formula one and looking at other.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
Sort of more mature sports.
Speaker 7 (32:46):
Now, the big difference of course to Formula one is
that you can't rock up to Silverstone and then get
on the racetrack the next day as an amateur, and
that's something unique in triathon, where we will have thousands
of participants of all different ages who get to they
can come and watch the professionals race and then go
and compete themselves the next day on the same course.
In fact, we've got the T one hundred London coming
(33:06):
up in just over a week's time and we'll have
over six thousand amateur athletes jumping in the Docklands and
then riding into central London.
Speaker 12 (33:14):
And athletes through a thirty five points first place to
one point for twentieth place. I'm good at eating, sleeping
and walking, so that's probably how would get that one
point if I'm lucky.
Speaker 8 (33:27):
Well.
Speaker 7 (33:27):
Look, one of the reasons why the events include from
an amateur perspective at least swimming, cycling and running is
exactly that not everyone is ready to take on the
challenge of an endurance event like a triathlon, but maybe
a five kilometer run, you know, that's a bit more
accessible in Singapore, we had over five thousand people come
and to a five kilometer run at the end of
the evening of the event, and it created a really
(33:48):
party atmosphere.
Speaker 11 (33:49):
It's really interesting, you know, when you're talking about the
whole participation aspect of it. And I know I've talked
to a lot of investors in this space, in these
nascent leagues and things like that, and they love the
idea of the the large participation numbers and the high
participation numbers, but sometimes it doesn't translate for viewership for
people who like to participate but then don't really watch
(34:10):
on TV or you know, go out. So is the
business model really getting.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
People to participate in the league as well, more so
than you know, watching them on TV or anything like that.
Speaker 6 (34:21):
So you're exactly right.
Speaker 7 (34:23):
One of the things of this round that has attracted
the investors we have, and so that's Surge, but also
Cardiella and Vron so like us private equity firms, is
they were attracted to our model being media agnostic. So
most challenger brands and most sports very heavily reliant on
media rights to monetize their properties. But of course, as
we all know, to space, that's going for a lot
(34:44):
of disruption at the moment. We've built a business model
that requires media. It's very important and Warner Brothers Discovery
was an early shareholder in the PTO, but we're not
after media rights at least in the short term. Like
our business model is around monetizing that participation, as you say,
directly in the events themselves. So media for us is
a flywheel. We're live on TV in one hundred and
ninety countries, we have twenty five broadcast partners. We did
(35:05):
close to half a billion views on social media last year,
and so it's fantastic content. But the content isn't monetized directly.
It's about driving attendance and participation in those events.
Speaker 9 (35:16):
Sam, I know you're based in London, but we on
the show talk about something called the Kaitlin Kark effect
and the impact that you know, one star, one superstar,
what shining superstar can have on a professional sports league
such as WNBA, and talk to us about some of
these triathletes, about their brand recognition, about their star power.
Speaker 7 (35:34):
Yeah, I mean, you're completely right, right. All sports built
on the backs of the professional tr athletes profiles and
that's the core of the PTO. It's why we were
set up as the Professional Trathletes Organization, a body for
the athletes promoting them. But they were lacking, you know,
these incredible athletes from an athletic perspective, but lacking a
commercial platform to make money.
Speaker 6 (35:52):
In fact, when we came along.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
Before we came along, I should say, you could finish
top five in the World Championships and you wouldn't make
enough money to.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
Cover the cost of your trip.
Speaker 7 (36:00):
So what we're really doing is coming along and bringing
the economics, bringing the hosting fees, bringing the corporate sponsorship
into the space so these these athletes can focus on
being the very best that they are and you know,
the commercial journey goes from that.
Speaker 12 (36:13):
I know we are fans and we cheer not just
for the front runners, but there's that person in last place.
And the New York Times recently wrote about Sam Long.
He is very good in running and cycling, swimming not
(36:34):
so much. What can you tell us more about Sam Long?
Because this man is near and dear to my heart. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (36:40):
So Sam is such a wonderful character and he's brought
such an energy to the sport. And we should point
out when we say he's not a good swimmer, he's
still faster than you know, ninety nine point nine.
Speaker 6 (36:49):
Percent of the population.
Speaker 7 (36:52):
Certainly from from a racing perspective, he brings such excitement
for us because because we know as viewers, Sam's going
to come out between two men and maybe three or
four minutes down out of the water, and so we're
playing catch up all the way through. And one of
the elements that we've really been seeking to create here
with the PTO is bringing data and biometrics into our
broadcast to make them contextually relevant because frankly, you know,
(37:15):
sport without data, without stats and without times, it's impossible
to watch it. And I would include you know, I've
referenced Formula one a few times. Formula one without statistics
and times would be just cars going around the track
for three hours. That wouldn't be an engaging product. But
if you know that Lando Norris is point nine behind
or point seven or point six, you get pulled into
the journey and the excitement of that race. Look, triathlon
(37:37):
was a sport that just lacked that data to have
the storytelling. And so what we've been doing with the
investment from Sir Michael and Surge and continuing is investing
in biometric devices that we can actually make it contextually
relevant that Sam's three minutes down, now he's two minutes down,
his heart rate is one hundred and eighty, he's pushing,
what's in temperature. And you have all those pieces together
and you can turn what was not really a consumable
(37:59):
broads sport into something that is incredibly engaging because unlike
other sports like motorsport, we can all relate to swimming, cycling, running.
If you switch it on, you see that you understand
what they're doing, but you don't realize how incredibly fast
they're going. And that's what we're really seeking to solve
as we take triathlon into the mainstream.
Speaker 12 (38:16):
Sam Renoff founding Chief executive Office here of the Professional
Triathletes Organization and this NIDO event, the T one hundred
Triathlon World Tours.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Our thanks to Sam Runoff for joining us. He's founding
CEO of the Professional tr Athletes Organization. And that does
it for this edition of the Bloomberg Business of Sports.
If you missed any of our conversations today, make sure
to catch the whole thing on demand on the Bloomberg
Business of Sports podcast. Find that on Apple, Spotify, and
anywhere else you get your podcasts. For Damian Sasaur, I'm
(38:50):
Vanessa Prudemo. Tune in next week for the stories moving
big money in the world of sports. You're listening to
The Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio around the world.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
Six
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is the Business of Sports. Sports are the greatest
unscripted show owner the next generation of players who really
grew up with tech and believe in tech. Your face
is your ticket, your face is your wallet, your face
is your access to a club.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
These are such iconic and important buildings for businesses.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
For fans, COVID was one of the best things that
ever happened at golf.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
The NFL is a bulletproof business.
Speaker 5 (00:31):
Racing is unique because there is absolutely no reason why
we can't compete with the guys.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Come well, it's pro pickleball? Real, Are people really going
to tune into this?
Speaker 5 (00:38):
If you're playing moneyball with a huge bag of money,
you're going to be really, really good.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports where we explore
the big money issues in the world of sports. I'm
Vanessa Prodomo alongside Damian sas Hour. Michael Barr will be
back next week. Coming up on the show, we'll talk
with the CEO of Professional Try Athletes Organization Sam Renoff,
a big new investment in how PTO wants to take
triathlons to the next level.
Speaker 6 (01:07):
The professional triathletes.
Speaker 7 (01:08):
They got together and said, look, our sport has grown
phenomenally since it got into the Olympic Games in two thousand,
but maybe the economics of the commercial side not quite
living up to his potential. And so we together formed
the PTO in the mirroring you know, the PGA Tour
and what they did in the sixties and the ATP
and the in tennis in the eighties. So that's how
it all came together. It was started by the athletes
(01:30):
for the athletes.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
We'll also talk trading card collectibles with the owner of
Bleaker Trading, Matt winklereaed. All that is straight ahead on
the Bloomberg Business of Sports. But first, while the NFL
is gearing up for the twenty twenty five regular season,
the NFL Players Association is trying to recover from a
series of scandals that led to the executive director, Lloyd
Howell to resign. Bloomberg Original's chief correspondent Jason Kelly recently
(01:53):
sat down with the former NFLPA executive Demorris Smith on
a recent episode of the Deal with Alex Rodriguez and
Jason Kelly. Here's a portion of that conversation.
Speaker 8 (02:03):
Even though you have those kind of battles on both
sides of the aisle, there is room for business, There
is room for compromise. But sometimes those compromises, as somebody
like Alex knows, your first year in the league was
the strike, right, and so you end up resolving or
coming to some sort of compromise on these on these
(02:24):
business deals. But I think every now and then people
forget that sometimes there's a preceding war and it's full
of personalities, it's it's full of intricate business decisions, but
also this idea that a group of people on one
side can have a good war with the people on
the other side, and sometimes good things come out of it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
That's former NFLPA executive director Demorris Smith speaking to Jason
Kelly and Alex Rodriguez on the latest episode of The Deal.
Jason joins Damien and me to talk more about what
the NFL could do to fight for change. Jason, welcome
back to the Bloomberg Business of Sports.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'd love being gassed up here in the Bloomberg Business
of Sports by both of you.
Speaker 9 (03:06):
Demorris Smith. Demorris Smith came on the Deal you got
to talk to us about, you know, the former NFL
Players Association head in today's day and age with what's
going on, Jason, What did he lay on you?
Speaker 10 (03:16):
I mean, what a character this guy is. I don't
know if you guys have had a chance to meet
him VP. I think you've met him maybe over the years.
So longtime head of the NFL PA, and was a
character in the job and is a character outside of it.
And now that he is really free to speak his mind,
he really does it. He's got a new book out.
It's called Turf Wars, The Fight for the Soul of
(03:36):
America's Game. He really goes there and gives a lot
of juicy behind the scenes tidbits about when he was there,
which I'm sure you guys have read into, you know,
on the show. It was an interesting conversation with him
because obviously my co host Alex Rodriguez has a very
unique perspective having been a player represented by a players Association. Obviously,
(03:59):
Marvin Miller was the legendary head of the PA on
on the baseball side. You know, Alex obviously worked very
closely with them when he was a player. But now
here's Alex Rodriguez, team owner in the NBA, in the WNBA,
you know, having to be on the other side of
the table, dealing with collective bargaining agreements, dealing with the
players associations, you know, both in men's basketball and women's basketball.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
So did you see Alex's brain kind of churning in
this conversation?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Absolutely, it was really it was really interesting because.
Speaker 10 (04:29):
You know, Alex and I talk a lot, you know,
on the show and off the show about you know,
all these cool roles that he can play in these
sorts of conversations, and you know, these are two guys
who you know, have obviously crossed paths over the years,
and so you could definitely see Alex asking questions and
asking some really good questions about different negotiations.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
That that d was leading.
Speaker 10 (04:51):
You know, he did the CBA back in twenty eleven,
I believe, and so sort of understanding how whim important
that job is. But to your point, now, Alex is
obviously looking at it from literally the other side of
the table. But one of the things that came out
very clearly in our conversation is how hard these jobs are.
(05:13):
These are really intense negotiations. You know, you are when
you're representing the players, you're representing a huge, wide swath
of you know, in his case, men who you know
want generally the same thing, but you know, also need
to literally collectively bargain. And on the other side of
the table you have Roger Goodell the commissioner, you have
(05:36):
the league officials. You also have you know, several dozen
owners who all have different perspectives. And so he talked
with us, and he talks a lot in the book
about Robert Kraft and sort of what he learned from him.
And you know, oftentimes these guys, this came out pretty
clearly from from d and you know Alex is given
this perspective as well. You know, it can be very
(05:59):
frowzious in the room and these are negotiations, but then
you know, at the end of the day you are
all in business together. And so I think navigating that
world of being adversaries when you're negotiating in contract, but
then also realizing that you are business partners at the
end of the day.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Well, the interesting thing there is like like your business partners,
but then at the end of the day. His book
is called The Fight for the Soul of you know, Football, Right,
So it's sort of they are going against each other
in a way. So I'm curious from his perspective of
what he talked about going against.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Them and what it was like.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Did he feel like they actually had a fight the
power Because the NFL and the owners hold so much power.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's a great question.
Speaker 10 (06:44):
I mean, listen, I think and this is where again
I'm just like always be selling my own show. But
you know, it is one thing we get into a
lot on the deal. Is this notion of the modern
athlete is in an entirely different position than he or
she was in you know, ten twenty, certainly thirty or
(07:05):
forty years ago. I do think the NFL and d
talks a bit about this has had to get religion
around how important the players are at the end of
the day, how important their safety is, how important their
well being is, how important their financial wellbeing is. Because
(07:29):
you know, at the end of the day, there is
no game, there is no NFL, they still have.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Less power than like the NBA, true than even the
MLB stars probably do.
Speaker 10 (07:41):
And I think, yeah, that's that would be an interesting debate.
I think the NBA is probably number one in terms
of the UH in terms of the athlete power.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I do think the NFL.
Speaker 10 (07:54):
I think what d would say is the NFL has
definitely made strides over the past call it five to
ten years, certainly further along than they were. But part
of that has been forced. And I think you bring
up a really good point, VP. Part of that has
been forced by what they see in the NBA. You
know that the NBA has had I think the NBA
players probably would say they've had a friendlier relationship with
(08:17):
Adam Silver than maybe the NFL players have had with
Roger Goodell. I don't want to put worth anybody's mouth,
but I think that's probably fair.
Speaker 9 (08:24):
Well, Jason, you know I have to ask you this, right,
I mean the Morris served as the NFL Player Association's
executive director for fourteen years, from two thousand and nine
to twenty twenty three, so in that time he oversaw
the twenty eleven NFL in lockout, the subsequent CBA negotiations
Deflate Gate. He was also involved in the negotiations for
a ct settlement for concussion related injury. Right, and you
(08:46):
talk about players well being and health, and given what
just happened here in New York City last month, I'm
just curious and maybe you didn't acknowledge it there, but
you know, during during your conversation, but would you, taking
a step back thing, think that the Morris was was
really truly focused on that at the time when that
agreement was settled, because you know, you look back and
(09:08):
you know, people have argued that the money just really
doesn't do service for the families and the people involved.
Speaker 10 (09:13):
I mean, I don't want to put words into his mouth.
I do think safety has been at the forefront of
just about every conversation for anyone who's representing the players.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I do.
Speaker 10 (09:26):
I think it's not controversial to say it has been
one of the sort of stiffest fights between, you know,
among the league, the owners and the players, and is continuing.
Speaker 9 (09:37):
I mean, the shooter wasn't even an NFL player, So
what are we really talking about. But nevertheless, the fact
that that's where you know, whether shoot arrived, it'syes's it's
just an amazing thing. And look, I mean, you know,
I guess you know, I just you know, we got
you here. I got to ask you what's the Morris
doing now? You know, what's he into? What's his life
look like? I mean, you know, what does he what
does he think about when he's lying in bed at night,
What does he look like in the morning.
Speaker 10 (09:57):
Well, I think he's relieved that he's not in this
job anymore, and you know there's there call. Yeah, So,
I mean, obviously there's been a lot that's happened subsequently
as well, with his success or his successor, you know,
resigning under a lot of pressure Lloyd Howell over a
conflict that that he had being associated or being an
employee or or a an advisor to the Carlile Group, which,
(10:20):
as you know, is one of the firms that has
been proved to buy approved to buy stakes in NFL teams.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
He resigned under some pressure.
Speaker 10 (10:30):
Our colleagues at ESPN have done an incredible job, the
investigative unit, you know, really uncovering a lot of what
was going on, not just with that, with that association
that Howell had with Carloiu Group, with some other indiscretions
shall we say that he had that he had along
the way, they've named an interim director David White. There
(10:52):
wash there were some reports that they might bring d
back in on an intern basis. Uh he I don't
know whether he officially declined that but he he.
Speaker 9 (11:03):
I'm checking Pabo towards finds out he did.
Speaker 10 (11:07):
Yeah, talk about someone else who's done an incredible job
on that story. You know, the reality is is that
we I think I speak for Alex when I say this.
We definitely got a sense from d that he is
glad to not be in the job. He's glad that
he did it, but the sort of what it took
out of him was a lot, and so I think he's,
(11:29):
you know, he's trying his next course, figuring out what
he what he wants to do next. I think writing
this book was a real process of a process of
processing and in a lot of ways, you know, sort
of what he went through and some of the things
that he did.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Well, it's interesting that they would even or there would
be reports that they consider it because is the book
not a burn it.
Speaker 11 (11:49):
To the ground type of thing?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Was there? What was the most shocking thing about it?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I mean, I think it was.
Speaker 10 (11:54):
I mean, you know, Damien said, Damian mentioned a couple
of different things, you know, calling out players, you know,
talking about negotiations that happened. I do think it's an
interesting question, you know, would would they actually go back
to someone who basically just like aired a little bit
of dirty laundry, maybe more than a little bit.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You know. I think that.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
It's all true, it's all honest, and and I think,
you know, one of the things that always came through
about d you know, having known him a little bit
before and Alex and I agree on this, and then
having had this conversation with him for the show, he
is who he is. And so I don't think anybody
in the NFL who's reading this book is shocked by
(12:41):
what he said, because they knew he was going to
say it. And I do think that's what made him
such a powerful advocate when he had the PA job,
was that he he was going there and and uh,
and that's part of his I think it's not just
part of his charm.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I think it's part of his effectiveness.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Our thanks to Bloomberg Original's chief correspondent Jason Kelly for
joining us today catch the latest episode of his show
The Deal with Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly, featuring former
NFLPA executive director de Morris Smith. You can listen to
the full episode on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get
your podcasts. Coming up. Ripping Wax with the owner of
(13:19):
sports memorabilia and collectible's company Bleeker Trading, or Damien Sassaur.
I'm Vanessa Perdomo. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business of
Sports from Bloomberg Radio around the world.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 9 (13:38):
This is the.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Bloomberg Business of Sports, where we explore the big money
issues in the world of sports. I'm Vanessa Perdomo alongside
Damien Sassaur. Michael Barr will be back next week. The
National Sports Collector's Convention wrapped up its event last weekend
in Rosemont, Illinois, and here to chat about the boom
and trading cards and more is the owner of Bleaker Trading,
Matt Winklreed. Matt, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business to Sports.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here,
all right.
Speaker 9 (14:02):
The market for collectiles, specifically sports trading cards is huge
and apparently rising. I mean the numbers I'm looking at
right now, it's approximately fourteen billion dollars in twenty twenty one,
but by you know, twenty thirty two, forty nine billion dollars,
that's what the market value.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
That is unbelievable.
Speaker 9 (14:20):
Talk to us about that growth and how Bleaker Trading
this positioned to get involved.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Absolutely, I mean it's really exciting to see what's going
on in the hobby. It's you know, the industry is
having a moment right when you look at what the
sports industry is doing with the media rights deals and
evaluations of teams. There is a tremendous amount of growth
happening in the hobby because there's it's direct link to
pop and how people follow sports or follow Pokemon followed
(14:45):
like what they.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Love to collect. So there's this great, great momentum in
the hobby in terms of how people are engaging with it.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Do you know what's interesting is I feel like I
hear about it now a lot more, you know, I mean, like,
as we were talking about it's growing right now, here
about it a lot more than I feel like I have.
Was there like a lull in the sort of like
digital age that people stopped collecting for a while and
did something kind of bring it back to this sense
of popular ability.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
I think what brought it back obviously was COVID.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Right everyone was stuck at home trying to figure out
what to do with themselves, and people pulling out their
old old binders.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Seeing oh my god, I have these old Pokemon cards.
Let's let's see what I can do with them really
got people back into the hobby. But in terms of like.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
The lull, I would say from just my own personal experience,
I definitely took a lull for like fifteen years from
when I was in middle school going into high school
and ultimately got back and got back into it last
year and then became a customer of Bleaker.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
So is there a like age then gap, like it's
kids and then like adults.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
I think it varies from person to person, but like
our demographic at our shop ranges from ten year olds
to seventy year olds.
Speaker 9 (15:54):
So it's interesting because when I grew up, you know,
it was the chase for you know, the Don Mattingly
rookie card, you know, or you know, and his fleet.
You wanted the fleet, you don't want the tops. And
then it was like you know, Mark McGuire and Wade
Bogs and you know, I guess Tim Vanessa's point, you know,
it did. We did have a lull, and I just
I'm curious. You know, you guys are both a little
bit younger than me. Pokemon trading cards. Is that kind
(16:14):
of like your generation, Like, was that a thing for y'all?
Because I remember my kids, you know, sweating that stuff,
and I wonder if that kind of set the stage
for this comeback in the industry.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
I mean for me, I was always a collector of
Pokemon for sure. In terms of my age demographic, I
would say it was a combination of you know, the
Michael Jordan era and the Pokemon.
Speaker 9 (16:33):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
The Pokemon craze was just absolutely outrageous.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
To my mom would always go wait at our local
toy store for packs, and she would call the toy
store to make sure, hey, keep a couple of a
side from me. But I would say Pokemon obviously had
this incredible run during the nineties early two thousands, but
sports cards really stayed true to what they were.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
But the interesting thing there, when we're talking about the
difference between Pokemon and sports trading cards. I was talking
to the Piece Say president earlier this year, Ryan Hodge
about it, and he said that even though trading sports
trading cards are getting a bigger share of the market,
Pokemon still is dominating the space absolutely.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Absolutely the same with our store too, right, we would say,
when you look at our sales.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Sixty percent of our sales our Pokemon TCG products.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Yeah, it's insane, like people really want it people, And
I think there's a nostalgia aspect to it, right at
least for me, Every time I opened a Pokemon pack,
I go back in time to when I was ten
years old, waking up in the morning on my birthday,
my mom having every single Pokemon pack she could possibly
get her hands on, and just ripping it and seeing
what I got.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Is there still that same value to it at auction
and things like that for Pokemon that there is for
sports memorabilia?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
I think the inherent value of the TCG products right
now is astronomically higher than it was ten years ago.
Speaker 9 (17:51):
All right, Matt, you got to answer this one for me, right,
I mean, I've seen these, I guess these memes, these
you know, tiktoks whatever, these kids opening old decks of cards,
and it is red, red hot, And you know, I
think about that, and I think about bleaker trading, and
specifically the name is bleaker trading. You know, you're facilitating
the movement of all these sports cards with collectibles, et cetera.
(18:13):
Do you take any inventory I mean like in your
I mean, do you have to take inventory to be
I guess a market maker, a trader of sports cards
or are you just connecting people like you know where
that you know nineteen fifty two tops Rookie Mickey Mantle
card is hiding you know you can help another investor
maybe you know, bit on it or get to it.
I mean, how do you guys work?
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Well, So we're primarily a retail shop, but we're also
more of an event space, and our mantra is we're
not just a card shop. We're a hospitality business. So
we're not helping you just find those cards. We're creating
a community around the hobby space and I think that's
what our bread and butter is right. We want people
to come hang out the shop, rip see what they get,
and if they get that they pull a big card,
(18:52):
they can either sell it to us or they can
grade it.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
They can how would you call it ripping?
Speaker 6 (18:56):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Rip, yes, so ripping wax is what they call it.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Yeah, that's industry, Tom.
Speaker 9 (19:00):
I wonder what the gum in some of those packs still,
by the way, it's still in in our junk wax
area we have we have like nineteen eighty nine Tops
Tops packs still with the gum in there.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
I don't advise to eat it, but it's still in there.
It's like it's like going back in time. It's really amazing.
But like ripping wax comes from back in the day,
those trading cards were wrapped in wax paper, so you
had to rip that open, and that's why it's called
ripping wax.
Speaker 9 (19:21):
I would always keep them protected. In mind some of
these cards, I mean the numbers I'm seeing million dollars,
two million dollars, three million dollar Michael Jordan card. I
mean you can't keep that in your house, can you.
I mean, like do you provide security and like safe
I guess, I mean like people could come and see
it under glass.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
I mean that's like it's like cards. Yeah, so cards
that we own are in our lock, show case or
in our safe. But in terms of like high value
cards like that, like the gem Mint ten nineteen fifty
two Mantle is held at either I forget which vault
it's at, but it's in a vault. So there are
companies that have vaulting services to where you can keep
(19:57):
those higher end items so you don't keep them in
your house. But I usually like to collect keep my
cards in my house because I just like I like
looking at them.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
I'm holding them, like that's what I would be.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
As we're talking about like these million dollar cards and
things like that. Caitlin Clark's rookie card just sold for
six hundred and sixty thousand dollars a couple of weeks ago,
and that went up from Damian three hundred and sixty
six thousand four months ago. Okay, so are we going
to see one of her card sell for a million
dollars this year? Do you think?
Speaker 4 (20:24):
I'd like to hope.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
So, I think it depends on the card obviously, I
mean her that card was the fall.
Speaker 9 (20:29):
Depends on how the fever doing the playoffs, if they
make the playoffs.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
Right, But it's also her, her fandom and her and
her popularity, right like that also is a driver of
the market. But you know her that that six hundred
and sixty thousand dollars card is her flawless shield and
that is like the coveted card that you're looking for
when you're opening that product. Right the uh, the Michael
Jordan Kobe that is on auction right now, that has
the the NBA the NBA shield on it. So it's
(20:54):
one of those things where it is the coveted card.
I don't, I don't I think that we can see
a Kate and Clargo for a million, if not this year.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
Next year.
Speaker 9 (21:02):
Well let me let me rid riddle me this. I mean,
how much of that increase, in your opinion, is you know,
due to the you know, the burgeoning popularity of the
w n b A itself, and how much of that
is really people thinking that, you know, Caitlin Clark is
just head and shoulders Michael Jordan above the rest.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Personally, I think it's a combination of both, combination of both.
Speaker 9 (21:23):
I mean, I mean that's a huge you're right, that's
a doubling in what four months. I mean, that's a
pretty you know, you don't see that every.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Day of the week.
Speaker 9 (21:29):
I guess it is it scarcity a supply, I mean
it's a one of one, yeah, so like it's there's
only one out there, right.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
So, but you look at the popularity popularity of these athletes,
so you know what they do on the field, but
also what they do off the field, and that their
engagement in in the hobby or in industry, what they're
doing from a business perspective, like there is inherent there's
tracking of like what they're doing that that is driving
their popularity in the value of their cards.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
And as we're talking about that, and obviously have to
note that it is the most the highest selling women's
card of all time, women's athlete card of all time.
Have you seen, you know, the kids or whoever's coming
into your store getting really into those WNBA packs as
well getting excited for.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
My god, yes, for everyone's car. We can't keep WNBA
in our shelves. It's awesome.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
I mean, I have a camera Brinks Auto of my
own in my collection and it's one of my favorite cards, honestly.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (22:21):
Well, now, my I mean you just so, Bleaker Trading
was around before you got involved, right, yes, So how'd
you get how'd you find them? How did you get
affiliated with the company? And what did you see in
that company that made you want to become an you know,
an equity shareholder.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
So it's funny.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
I got introduced to the company through my sibling. Actually,
I was trying to get back into the hobby and
my sibling texted me, was like, go check out the shop.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Bleaker trading, So.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Of course I go that day and bought my first
booster box in fifteen years, and immediately fell in love
with the shop, not just because it had access to cards,
but because I felt like I was part of a community.
Like I instantly felt welcome back into a hobby that
was very, very overwhelming to get back into, and I
(23:08):
felt at home. And that's our mantra right where collectors
call home. What I saw from the business was an
opportunity not just to be a car shop, but to
be a market mover in the in the in the space.
We are community driven and we try to do things
differently than everybody else.
Speaker 9 (23:25):
So are you trying to bring the West Village to
other cities across our country? Is that? Is that the vibe,
the feeling you get, You're trying to bring that West
Village kind of kitchy feel your comic.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
Books and sports cards to I'm assuming you're asking about expansion.
Speaker 9 (23:38):
Everything is on the task experience, I mean, but yes, yes,
and that's what I'm looking for. I think that is amazing.
If that's indeed why you what you see in the
vision you have for this company and taking things forward,
I mean, that is just awesome if you can bring
that to places like Miami in LA and I mean,
god knows those cities can I.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Mean, as a new owner, I'm coming in not just
to not to make changes, but to elevate what we
currently do best.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
And that is our vibe and our feeling and who
we are as a company.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
And what do you think though, like as a retail space,
what is your place in the market in terms of
what can you offer and what kind of you know,
share in the space do you really have in terms
of is it just somewhere people like have the community
buy cards or anything like that, or is it something
where you can actually build this empire, build business for
(24:23):
yourself in the space.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I think how we fit into the ecosystem.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
You know when you go to a lot of card
shops and you know, everyone has their own their own methodology,
their own mantra of like how they want their shop
to be. But like what we do differently is you know,
we try to make sure everyone feels welcome, whether you're
a veteran collector or a new collector. Like we try
to make sure that there's something there for everyone, whether it's.
Speaker 11 (24:46):
Or celebrity or Jos or celebrity.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Jo John's heard this.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Uh, and we can get into that if you want to.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
No, we want to make sure that little Jimmy when
he's buying a Pokemon pack of his sister is not
into collecting, but like wants something as well. She sees
a pack of ly and Stitch, or she sees a
Star Wars pack, like she can she can also engage
in the hobby. So our mission is to also drive,
you know, create a space for current collectors, but also
reach out to people that are interested in the hobby
(25:12):
that want to get in.
Speaker 11 (25:13):
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
I was when I was speaking to Ryan earlier this year,
the PCA president. He was telling me this idea of
trading cards in the space being tariff proof, almost like
this this safe where place where people are keeping their
money right now in the industry. Are you seeing? That
did make you a spike this year in.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
That I think it's now really become an alternative asset
class to to put your money because like the values
can can hold pretty strong.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I agree with that. Yeah, you guys got to come
to the shop.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I will next time. Joe Jones is there, please let
me know before the crowd.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
An excuse to hand down to the last. You have
my number now, so just assume me a tax I'll
make sure you get invited.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Our thanks to Matt weinkel Reid for joining us. He's
owner and head of operations for Blacker Trading. Up next,
the CEO of Professional triath Leates Organization Sam Renoff on
supporting the body and interest of professional endurance athletes, or
Damien Sassaur.
Speaker 11 (26:07):
I'm Vanessa Perdomo.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg
Radio around the world.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Thanks for joining us on the Bloomberg Business of Sports,
where we explore the big money issues in the world
of sports. I'm Vanessa Perdomo along with Damien Sassaur Michael
barr is off this week. The Professional Triathletes Organization or
PTO is an organization that represents non drafting professional triathletes.
It is owned by athletes looking to take the sport
(26:42):
of triathlon to the next level, and it recently got
a big investment to help it do just that. Joining
us now to talk more about the recent investment and
more is PTO founding Chief Executive Officer Sam Renoff, Sam,
Welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Good morning, it's great to be here.
Speaker 12 (27:00):
You are the founder and CEO of the Pro Triathletes Organization.
Now what gave you the idea to start the T
one hundred Triathlon World Tour?
Speaker 7 (27:12):
So I was the founding CEO of the idea, as
is so often the case in sports, actually came from
the athletes themselves. So they they were on the verge
of unionizing the professional triathletes. They got together and said, look,
our sport has grown phenomenally since it got into the
Olympic Games in two thousand, but maybe the you know,
the economics and the commercial side not quite living up
(27:32):
to his potential. And so we together formed the PTO
in the mirroring, you know, the PGA Tour and what
they did in the sixties and the ATP and the
in tennis in the eighties. So that's how it all
came together. It was started by the athletes for the athletes.
Speaker 11 (27:46):
So it's similar to the PDA Tour. So is this
this is sort of a league for try athletes? Is
that kind of how?
Speaker 7 (27:54):
Well, yes, that's like our business model is what we've created.
Were the players Association to use more of the sort
of the general term on behalf of all professional triathletes
out there, and rather than just unionizing and going and
sort of complaining to other events saying, hey, pay us more,
we thought that let's own our own economic destiny. Let's
raise venture capital and go and create our own league.
And that's exactly what we've done with a T one
(28:15):
hundred triathlon World Tour that we launched last year. So
we raised money a couple of years ago. We launched
in the middle of COVID. We were very fortunate to
found to find, excuse me, an incredible investor in Sir
Michael Morritz of Sequoia Capital, and he really recognized the
potential in triathlon and what we were doing.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
And as Baptist on our journey.
Speaker 9 (28:34):
So far, Sam, take us through what that tour looks like.
I'm seeing nine is it? Nine cities across the world.
I mean, places like Dubai and Vancouver, Cutter you know, Valencia, Spain,
you know, and you know, for me, I mean, I'm
really interested in what these weekends look like because it
really isn't just about the triathlon, is it. I Mean,
there are you know, activities for all levels of amateur
(28:55):
athletes to get involved.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Now exactly right.
Speaker 7 (28:58):
So these are mass participation festivals across swimming, cycling, and running,
three of the most participated sports in the world, and
you bring that all together with the triathlon as the
pinnacle moment. And so yeah, like you said, nine locations
this year with the T one hundred Tour. The investment
logic behind so Michael's investment on our rounds later is
that triathlon has one of the most, if not the
(29:19):
most valuable demographics in sport. It's almost become cliche to
be a triathlete, right, It's that super higher achiever. It's
the CEO of if IIV statistic forty four percent of
triathletes influence of financial decision in their business. And so
it's a really valuable audience. But like many nascent niche sports,
that audience was fragmented by the lack of cohesive products.
(29:41):
So you know, we got the Olympics every four years,
but outside of that, the audience is fragmented across thousands
of racists. So what we have done is create a
global tour that has the very best professional triathletes racing
head to head in a season long competition, you know,
copying Formula one or learning from Formula one and many
of the sports out there, and using that to create
a marketing platform to bring that incredibly valuable audience together
(30:03):
and ultimately monetize.
Speaker 9 (30:05):
It and for those in our audience. Just so, Michael Moritz,
I mean we're talking about a top venture capitalist here.
He's a board member at Google. He's a quite a capital.
I think he used to be the San Francisco Bureau
treece of time. And you know what's interesting to me
is in this latest round Surge Sports Investments. I mean Serge,
that's the pif, that's Saudi Arabia. I mean they're already
invested in a number of other you know, the Professional
(30:28):
Fighters League for example, in seven a side football. You
know what makes this investment different than those? Why were
they so interested in getting involved here?
Speaker 7 (30:36):
Yeah, so look, we were thrilled to have investor, of
course some Michael in the beginning, and then the caliber
of Surge and all these far more better known sports
than like little triathlon if we call it what it is.
But why Surge and the other investors that have joined
in this round, I think a couple of different reasons,
But It really goes back to as I said beforehand,
and if I use some Michael as the example, he
(30:56):
didn't invest as a passion project. He's not a triathlete.
It's not like one of these billionaires who liked their
sport and sort of just goes and puts money into it.
He invested because of a highly valuable but fragmented audience,
and if you had a different technological approach to it,
you could monetize it. And that's really what we've been
doing the last few years. Now forward fast forward to
today in this round we've just announced with Search coming
on board. I mean it's a financial decision by Surgeon.
(31:18):
They see the investment potential of an undercommercialized sport. But
part of their mandate also is to drive the Vision
twenty thirty in the Kingdom, and part of that is
about getting more participation. And so what better way to
get Saudi's off the couch and doing sport than swimming,
cycling and running the three sports of triathlon.
Speaker 12 (31:37):
Now, the structure of the T one hundred breakdown for
us for those who aren't familiar with the scoring and
the cash money that you can win in this sport.
Speaker 7 (31:47):
Yeah, so look this was, as we said before, an
undercommercialized sport. And although we have some of the greatest
athletes on the planet, the competing triathleon, some of our
athletes will even compete in the single discipline, so like
we have professional traat to ride in the Tour de
France and in professional cycling, we have run the triathletes
who run and they can qualify in the finals of
their athletics championship. So it's really really top caliber athletic performance.
(32:11):
But like many Olympic sports, as I said before, relatively
under commercialized. So we've sort to fixed that with a
new product and put millions of dollars of prize money
in the line to incentivize the best athletes to come
and compete head to head, which ultimately is fundamental to
the best sport. I mean, you're not going to take
the sport to the next step unless as fans, we
can see the best athletes competing head to head in
(32:33):
iconic locations as you referenced earlier. So we're in London,
we're in Singapore, in Dubai, we're in Vancouver, really exciting
locations that showcase the sport really copying, you know, as
I said, Formula one and looking at other.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
Sort of more mature sports.
Speaker 7 (32:46):
Now, the big difference of course to Formula one is
that you can't rock up to Silverstone and then get
on the racetrack the next day as an amateur, and
that's something unique in triathon, where we will have thousands
of participants of all different ages who get to they
can come and watch the professionals race and then go
and compete themselves the next day on the same course.
In fact, we've got the T one hundred London coming
(33:06):
up in just over a week's time and we'll have
over six thousand amateur athletes jumping in the Docklands and
then riding into central London.
Speaker 12 (33:14):
And athletes through a thirty five points first place to
one point for twentieth place. I'm good at eating, sleeping
and walking, so that's probably how would get that one
point if I'm lucky.
Speaker 8 (33:27):
Well.
Speaker 7 (33:27):
Look, one of the reasons why the events include from
an amateur perspective at least swimming, cycling and running is
exactly that not everyone is ready to take on the
challenge of an endurance event like a triathlon, but maybe
a five kilometer run, you know, that's a bit more
accessible in Singapore, we had over five thousand people come
and to a five kilometer run at the end of
the evening of the event, and it created a really
(33:48):
party atmosphere.
Speaker 11 (33:49):
It's really interesting, you know, when you're talking about the
whole participation aspect of it. And I know I've talked
to a lot of investors in this space, in these
nascent leagues and things like that, and they love the
idea of the the large participation numbers and the high
participation numbers, but sometimes it doesn't translate for viewership for
people who like to participate but then don't really watch
(34:10):
on TV or you know, go out. So is the
business model really getting.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
People to participate in the league as well, more so
than you know, watching them on TV or anything like that.
Speaker 6 (34:21):
So you're exactly right.
Speaker 7 (34:23):
One of the things of this round that has attracted
the investors we have, and so that's Surge, but also
Cardiella and Vron so like us private equity firms, is
they were attracted to our model being media agnostic. So
most challenger brands and most sports very heavily reliant on
media rights to monetize their properties. But of course, as
we all know, to space, that's going for a lot
(34:44):
of disruption at the moment. We've built a business model
that requires media. It's very important and Warner Brothers Discovery
was an early shareholder in the PTO, but we're not
after media rights at least in the short term. Like
our business model is around monetizing that participation, as you say,
directly in the events themselves. So media for us is
a flywheel. We're live on TV in one hundred and
ninety countries, we have twenty five broadcast partners. We did
(35:05):
close to half a billion views on social media last year,
and so it's fantastic content. But the content isn't monetized directly.
It's about driving attendance and participation in those events.
Speaker 9 (35:16):
Sam, I know you're based in London, but we on
the show talk about something called the Kaitlin Kark effect
and the impact that you know, one star, one superstar,
what shining superstar can have on a professional sports league
such as WNBA, and talk to us about some of
these triathletes, about their brand recognition, about their star power.
Speaker 7 (35:34):
Yeah, I mean, you're completely right, right. All sports built
on the backs of the professional tr athletes profiles and
that's the core of the PTO. It's why we were
set up as the Professional Trathletes Organization, a body for
the athletes promoting them. But they were lacking, you know,
these incredible athletes from an athletic perspective, but lacking a
commercial platform to make money.
Speaker 6 (35:52):
In fact, when we came along.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
Before we came along, I should say, you could finish
top five in the World Championships and you wouldn't make
enough money to.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
Cover the cost of your trip.
Speaker 7 (36:00):
So what we're really doing is coming along and bringing
the economics, bringing the hosting fees, bringing the corporate sponsorship
into the space so these these athletes can focus on
being the very best that they are and you know,
the commercial journey goes from that.
Speaker 12 (36:13):
I know we are fans and we cheer not just
for the front runners, but there's that person in last place.
And the New York Times recently wrote about Sam Long.
He is very good in running and cycling, swimming not
(36:34):
so much. What can you tell us more about Sam Long?
Because this man is near and dear to my heart. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (36:40):
So Sam is such a wonderful character and he's brought
such an energy to the sport. And we should point
out when we say he's not a good swimmer, he's
still faster than you know, ninety nine point nine.
Speaker 6 (36:49):
Percent of the population.
Speaker 7 (36:52):
Certainly from from a racing perspective, he brings such excitement
for us because because we know as viewers, Sam's going
to come out between two men and maybe three or
four minutes down out of the water, and so we're
playing catch up all the way through. And one of
the elements that we've really been seeking to create here
with the PTO is bringing data and biometrics into our
broadcast to make them contextually relevant because frankly, you know,
(37:15):
sport without data, without stats and without times, it's impossible
to watch it. And I would include you know, I've
referenced Formula one a few times. Formula one without statistics
and times would be just cars going around the track
for three hours. That wouldn't be an engaging product. But
if you know that Lando Norris is point nine behind
or point seven or point six, you get pulled into
the journey and the excitement of that race. Look, triathlon
(37:37):
was a sport that just lacked that data to have
the storytelling. And so what we've been doing with the
investment from Sir Michael and Surge and continuing is investing
in biometric devices that we can actually make it contextually
relevant that Sam's three minutes down, now he's two minutes down,
his heart rate is one hundred and eighty, he's pushing,
what's in temperature. And you have all those pieces together
and you can turn what was not really a consumable
(37:59):
broads sport into something that is incredibly engaging because unlike
other sports like motorsport, we can all relate to swimming, cycling, running.
If you switch it on, you see that you understand
what they're doing, but you don't realize how incredibly fast
they're going. And that's what we're really seeking to solve
as we take triathlon into the mainstream.
Speaker 12 (38:16):
Sam Renoff founding Chief executive Office here of the Professional
Triathletes Organization and this NIDO event, the T one hundred
Triathlon World Tours.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Our thanks to Sam Runoff for joining us. He's founding
CEO of the Professional tr Athletes Organization. And that does
it for this edition of the Bloomberg Business of Sports.
If you missed any of our conversations today, make sure
to catch the whole thing on demand on the Bloomberg
Business of Sports podcast. Find that on Apple, Spotify, and
anywhere else you get your podcasts. For Damian Sasaur, I'm
(38:50):
Vanessa Prudemo. Tune in next week for the stories moving
big money in the world of sports. You're listening to
The Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio around the world.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
Six
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