Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - January 2nd, 2026 - Bloomberg Businessweek

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is Bloomberg business Week Daily reporting from the magazine
that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies,
and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business finance
and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week
Daily Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Hi everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast.
Happy New Year, and as we wrapped up one year
kicked off another. Some of the main themes for twenty
twenty six definitely came into focus just in the past
week or two. A focus on the FED, the conundrum
of the US consumer, the AI spend and build out,
and political division, debate and disruption. Yes, sounds a lot

(00:53):
like how we began twenty twenty five one year ago.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
So this hour we explore the health of the consumer
and how AI impacting the retail space, and more broadly,
where the AI spend may take investors in twenty twenty six.
On politics, we check out what New York City's political
shift could mean for business in the Big Apple. A
well known voice to the city's executive suite and member
of the transition team of the city's new mayor, Zo
run Mamdani stops by.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Plus, we've got the story of the Donald Trump meme
coin launch and how the team behind it made an
estimated three hundred and fifty million dollars while many other
investors lost money. Then, in our second hour, in honor
of New Year celebrations, we kick back and dig into
some of our favorite conversations of the past year with
leaders in the wine and spirits businesses.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
Perfect for a little New Year's celebration.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yes, I feel like we've earned it this past week.

Speaker 4 (01:44):
Yeah, I think that's fair to say. All that to come.
We begin, though, with AI affecting a lot in our world,
with much more forecast to come. We may get a
peek into that this coming week at CEES. It's the
annual Consumer Technology Conference and it gets underway in Las
Vegas this coming week. The biggest names in tech, including Nvidia, AMD, Samsung,
and more, will make the case for AI their target audience, investors,

(02:06):
corporate clients, and perhaps just as importantly, ordinary shoppers who've
yet to be fully sold on the idea of AI
infused gadgets.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
And speaking of we ordinary shoppers. They we are increasingly
using AI agents to perform deep discount hunting, real time
product comparisons, and personalized gift curation that according to data
from the AI Shopping Optimization platform.

Speaker 4 (02:28):
Novy, retailers including Macy's, Sephora, Target, and Alta, along with
thousands of other consumer package goods brands, rely on Novy
to optimize their product data for AI driven discovery. Kimberly
Shank is the company's CEO. She joined Carol and Bloomberg's.

Speaker 5 (02:44):
Vonnie Quinn Novi's technology.

Speaker 6 (02:45):
We're actually helping retailers and brands increase their sales by
ensuring their products are found and trusted and then ultimately
recommended by AI models. So thank CHATCHBT, Gemini and Claude
and so we do this. We work with leading retailers
including Macy's, Sephora, Target, Aulta, thousands of CpG brands, and
they rely on us to optimize their product data for
AI driven discovery by consumers.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
So when you say that, it's basically a consumer who
does something and their data is processed and recorded, and
they're saying, oh, you bought that pair of pants, maybe
you would like this pair of pants is that is
it as simple as something like that or is it
more sophisticated.

Speaker 6 (03:21):
It's a little bit different in terms of consumers now
flocking to chat shipt or Gemini and asking questions to
actually do their shopping. So they're outsourcing a lot of
their research, discount hunting, you know, personalized gift curation to
the AI agent who's then gooing and finding products and
recommending it to them based on just questions and prompts.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
So who are your competitors and how do you stand
out from them?

Speaker 5 (03:46):
It's interesting.

Speaker 6 (03:47):
So there's a couple of different up and coming competitors
in the tech space who are helping brands and retailers
stand out in AI shopping. But we also have a
lot of the older, more traditional data companies because we
are a data company and we feed data with throw
our partnerships with our retailer partners. So think about Syndigo
or Salsify or even Nilsen Iq some of those older
data partnership players. So a lot of what we're doing

(04:09):
in these partnerships, and we'll be able to announce some
of them really soon, is feeding trustworthy, personalized information to
the models themselves, which is what we have seen at
NOV to increase your potential as a brand to show
up in AI shopping. So we found that you know,
products that have verified trust signals are a selected two
hundred and fifty nine percent more often than random chance

(04:30):
to think like certifications, reviews, badges, third party testing. And
we're feeding this directly to the retailers and the models
so that they help the brands show up in AI
recommendations to consumers.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
So one of the things I always think about, Kim
is like, how much of what is spent on AI
to kind of attract consumers retailers or folks to retailers. So,
in other words, that AI driven traffic to retail sites,
how much of it is productive that results in actually
a consumer buying something.

Speaker 6 (04:59):
Yeah, that's actually a very interesting question. So we're seeing
the traffics start to increase. There's actually we saw from
Adobe Analytics, like we just said, five hundred and twenty
percent over last year from AI.

Speaker 5 (05:11):
But what we're not sure about yet is conversion.

Speaker 6 (05:13):
And this is just because CHATCHBT, Gemini, none of them
are publishing the conversion.

Speaker 5 (05:17):
Results, but we at no V.

Speaker 6 (05:19):
What we did see is that chatgbt's shopping research answers
sent consumers directly to the brand's website eighty six percent
of the time, which means that the remainder of traffic,
you know, only about fourteen percent was sent to the
large retailers like Walmart or Target. And so what brands
are starting to see is more and more direct consumer
traffic to their website, which is driving conversion in sales
for them.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
So would you say, based on the data that you see,
could you see so much data that the consumer's doing well,
that retail's doing well? Like how much could you can
obviously break it down? Probably a lot, So give us
a little bit of insight as we get ready to
wrap up this hotiday shopping season.

Speaker 6 (05:54):
Well, so what we're actually seeing is, you know, consumers
are using AI as their category manager.

Speaker 5 (05:59):
So think of.

Speaker 6 (05:59):
It is we all used to trust the big box
retailers for their ability to manage each shopping category, do
the curation for us.

Speaker 5 (06:06):
And that's why you walked into a Target, right.

Speaker 6 (06:07):
They scoured the earth for the best, most compelling products
and we trusted them to do that. But now, and
what we say saw play out this holiday season, the
consumer has shifted their trust to AI to do the
research and curation for them. So we're seeing strong numbers
and users using chat to BT and shopping, but it's
just not quite played out yet and we'll see that
in twenty twenty six.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
Is where that conversion is going to happen.

Speaker 6 (06:30):
If it's going to happen direct on the brand websites
are still in retail.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Kimbridy, just a word on yourselves, how difficult is it
to raise money?

Speaker 5 (06:37):
What are the key words that.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Investors are looking for these days? And you know the
key ideas.

Speaker 5 (06:43):
Yes, AI is definitely the hot topic.

Speaker 6 (06:46):
If you are not involved in AI, doing something future
with your company that's progressing AI.

Speaker 5 (06:51):
So for example, we're an agentic commerce.

Speaker 6 (06:54):
That is what is hot for investors these days, and
that's what is raising money and getting the majority of
the cowpit.

Speaker 5 (07:00):
In Soldier Valley.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
That was Kimberly Shanks, CEO of Novi Vonnie sticking around
for this next conversation.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, that's right, Tim, and it was a chat where
we explored what may be the next AI trade for investors.
Chip makers, no doubt have been the biggest winners of
the artificial intelligence spending frenzy this year and really for
a couple of years now, and Wall Street will look
for that momentum to continue for some of the biggest
names in twenty twenty six.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
And Yet, as Bloomberg's Ian King wrote in this week's
Tech and Deaf newsletter, quote, watching the less publicized chip
makers may be a better way of assessing the future
of artificial intelligence than keeping an eye on market leader
in Vidia. To talk the AI trade and what we
may expect this year, Carolyn Vonnie spoke to Bloomberg opinion
columnist Dave Lee.

Speaker 7 (07:44):
This will be a year when we start to say,
you know, to what degree is AI actually being used
in real world applications? How is it changing logistics and
healthcare and medical.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Story, how the return on investment?

Speaker 7 (07:54):
Right, well, precisely return on investment, the practical use is
and that is something that for all the talk in
our current year about this that's kind of been missing.
It's all down the road, right And so Ian in
his PC highlights companies like Texas Instruments and Analog Devices,
And these are companies that specialize in kind of the
sort of lesser hailed parts of chip making, things that

(08:16):
go into cars, things that go into any you know,
sort of less sophisticated devices than say smartphones and so on.
They and when it comes to AI, what we're talking
about there is what we call edge computing, So not
AI that happens in a big cloud somewhere, but something
that happens on a device or inside a robot or
does something that needs an immediate response from AI that
could be incredibly transformative. And so when investors are looking

(08:39):
at chip makers that are you know, that are on
the markets and want to say, well, who might be
an unsung hero those those companies may may may be
a clue.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Dave, how much of two? Maybe in twenty twenty six
will also be about more productive chips Like I do
feel like with the energy crunch that folks who are
looking to build out AI data centers or do AI
or a large language models that they're looking for tips
that are much more energy efficient, like how much will
that be driving kind of the chip trate come twenty

(09:08):
twenty six? Then who stands out in that or is
it kind of a moving target?

Speaker 7 (09:12):
Well, it's a moving target in the sense that with
every new iteration, particularly within video, they say their chips
get you know, vastly more energy efficient, you can do
more with fewer of them. The problem is that for
the companies that want to use these chips is that
the prices are going down, right, the price these chips
is still sky high. I think what was an interesting
story this year was when Google announced it was going

(09:33):
to be working with Better Now. Their chips aren't quite
as versatile and videos GPUs, but Google's TPUs they call
them tensor processing units. They are specialized at doing what
the companies want right now, which is training AI models,
running AI models, and Google is saying, well, we can
do that more cheaply. And so for Google, which has
Google Cloud as it's obviously its cloud business, that's a

(09:56):
very attractive thing to companies that think, well we can't
quite get hold in video chips, let alone afford them.
So I think the efficiency question is an important one.
Availability is kind of also the side question.

Speaker 8 (10:07):
Now.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
I am like always shocked when I hear like Google
and their chips or Apple on the chips, and I
know this is something that's been happening over the years.
Are we going to see more of that where companies
are doing more of this in house? And why are
they because it's cheaper or what is it?

Speaker 7 (10:20):
It's cheaper. I mean, Apple is an incredible case here
because when you use an Apple product of you using
your iPhone, you can throw something from your iPhone to
your MacBook. You don't even have to have to send it.

Speaker 9 (10:32):
It just happens, right.

Speaker 7 (10:34):
A lot of this is because of them having this
sort of vertical integration. They designed the chips, they designed
the hardware and the computers, they designed the software computers.
It all just works wonderfully. I sound like Steve Jobs
on stage trying to explain it, but he was right,
and that is what they achieved.

Speaker 9 (10:48):
Now, if you're an AI.

Speaker 7 (10:49):
Company, open aiy is perhaps the interesting case study here.
Open ai doesn't design its own chips. It desperately wants to.
It's entered into a deal with Broadcom to do just that.
But it's quite a way down the line. And when
you look at other companies like Google, just as I mentioned,
and Amazon as well, they're much further along in that process.

(11:10):
And what it means is they can specialize those chips
to do exactly what they want. And in Google's case,
they decided to specialize in AI training and AI inference.
That helped them do that quickly and do it. Do
that more efficiently. I think as time goes on with
the AI industry, having the same virtual integration that Apple
has enjoyed for consumer devices is going to be just
as valuable.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
For Dave ab ask you. We were talking about bitcoin
for literally fifteen years before it took off. We've been
talking about self driving cars for ten years, and when
we actually get full self driving it's going to be
probably another five or more years. Is it going to
be that long before AI is really.

Speaker 5 (11:44):
That useful to us?

Speaker 9 (11:46):
You know?

Speaker 7 (11:46):
It's funny and one of the things that's because we'll.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Need another narrative if so, I can't talk about it.

Speaker 7 (11:52):
I think, I mean, isn't it interesting because because the
people and it's one of those stories that's broken containment.
I was on a flight a few days ago and
the people next to me we're talking about the AI bubble,
and I was hearing it everywhere people, you know, and
one of the things they say is will it be
like the dot com crash?

Speaker 8 (12:07):
Right?

Speaker 7 (12:07):
In many respects, it might be. And I think this
year we're going to see maybe some I p O
s from Opening Eye Onthropy. They're going to kind of
almost kick start that talk in a more intense way.
But then when when I think about the dot com crash,
the Internet will still revolutionary. So even though there we're
on it right this moment, so you know that both

(12:28):
things can be true. We can kind of have we
need the new narrative, but I also think AI has
this promise. Now what I what I when I think
of the dot com bust in particular, is you know,
it took Amazon years to recover from its crash price.
It took Cisco up until about a month ago to
come from its crash price. And I think we may
see some of the same patterns, but in terms of

(12:49):
how that shapes throughout this year, I mean, your guess
is as good as mine.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
That was Bloomberg opinion columnist Dave lee Are Thanks to
Vini Guinn for joining there as well.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
Coming up, The New York Times has the connector of
New York's powerful Well now she's part of New York
City Mayor Zoron Mamdani's transition team.

Speaker 4 (13:06):
Kathy Wilde, outgoing president and CEO of the Partnership for
New York City, stops by. You're listening to Bloomberg BusinessWeek.
This is Bloomberg.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily podcast. Catch us
live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen
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Speaker 3 (13:33):
This past Thursday, New Year's Day marked a new political
chapter in New York City as Zoron Mamdannie was officially
inaugurated mayor, marking a significant political shift on the start
of a new governing era for the city. This was
an election the whole country was watching.

Speaker 4 (13:47):
Yeah, and I think it's fair to say the country
is going to be watching the first few months of
this mayor in office. Bloomberg's reported about how some particularly
the wealthy, are concerned about some of the priorities for mayor.
Mom Donnie on that we caught up with someone NYC's
billionaire whisper.

Speaker 10 (14:02):
Yeah, not so sure.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
She loves the nickname, but people have put it out there.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
Air he did.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Hey, we were talking about Kathy Wilde.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
It wasn't the first time she's heard no.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Totally that you knew she She's heard it before. Kathy Wilde,
she is former President CE of the Partnership for New
York City. That group represents much of the City's corporate leadership.
It's a consortium of more than three hundred big companies,
including banks, law firms, private equity firms, and real estate developers.
Bloomberg LP, by the way, is a member of the
Partnership for New York City. Kathy Wilde just left the

(14:33):
Partnership and is now part of New York City Mayor
zoron Mumdani's transition team. She spoke with us in mid December.
Bloomberg New senior reporter Miles Miller also joined us. Why
did you want to be a part of the transition
team for the Mayor elect of New York City?

Speaker 11 (14:46):
Well, I think to the point that Ken Griffin of
Citadel just made, and he's one of our members as well,
and is a great corporate citizen of New York and Miami.
He has he made the point about the concern yarns
about the high expectations that Mayor Elect Mamdani gave to
his voters, and he, to his credit, brought out one

(15:10):
hundred and seventy thousand new voters, mostly young people, in
the primary. The cutoff age for his voter his voter
support was forty five. So many of us are beyond
that point and looking around and saying, oh, dear, does
he have the seasoning to be able to do this?
And I think that he's got the energy and the intelligence,

(15:31):
and it's up to all of us who have a
little more seasoning and to be helpful. And so that's
why I joined the transition team and was happy to
do that, and then working on the economic development workforce
activities there, But in general, I think working with him
to capture the enthusiasm and the energy. We came out

(15:55):
of the pandemic very negative and we lost a million jobs,
and then concerns about the cuts from the federal government
on entitlement programs, whether it's Medicaid and health insurance, that
there's the fight going on now. This casts a real
paull over New York City, which is very dependent on

(16:15):
those funds.

Speaker 10 (16:17):
So I think that what he's brought.

Speaker 11 (16:19):
Is a positive energy and we ought to capitalize on
that and hopefully he'll be the best marketer this city
has ever had.

Speaker 8 (16:26):
Your role on.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
The transition team does it turn into a full time
job in the Mundani administration.

Speaker 11 (16:33):
I am definitely not at my age looking for a
full time job.

Speaker 10 (16:36):
I'm trying to get away from a.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
Full time because you're outgoing as the president of the partnership.

Speaker 11 (16:43):
I am outgoing and I do not plan to take
another job, but I do plan to help the new
mayor if he wants it.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
So beyond the transition period, you would stay on as
an advisor.

Speaker 10 (16:55):
Well, I don't know in what capacity.

Speaker 11 (16:58):
As I say I'm there, I'm certainly going to help
Governor Hokeel deal with her challenges. Where I've worked closely
with her, She's done a great job, and I think
we're counting on her to continue to manage New York's
relationship with Washington and the relationship between the state and
the city, which.

Speaker 10 (17:16):
Is very important.

Speaker 11 (17:18):
Our affordability problems will not get solved by the city alone.
This is going to take federal, state, city cooperation, and
so I think all of us who are committed to
New York City in the future, we have to be
thinking of all three levels of government and how we
work with the leadership at all levels.

Speaker 12 (17:34):
You brought mom Donnie to meet with business leaders on
several occasions. I wonder if you can talk about what
his demeanor is in these meetings.

Speaker 9 (17:43):
Right I've talked to bilde.

Speaker 12 (17:44):
Blasio about how he works a room, Holmum, Donnie works
a room and really gets the business community to be
comfortable around him, but also talk about some of these
policy proposals that business leaders wanted. Answers to, what are
the things that business leaders set to him? Well, that
sounds like a lofty thing that won't get done, or hey,
that sounds like something that is much more than we're

(18:06):
willing to back.

Speaker 11 (18:07):
Well, there's been quite an evolution since he won the primary,
so in terms of his having a more nuanced position
on a lot of the policies. You know, during the
primary campaign there were whole slewer candidates and everything was
one liners and the social media stuff was one liners
or you know, show and tell. When you get into

(18:30):
conversation with CEOs, they want to hear data, they want
to hear facts. And I have watched him evolve and
grow over the last eight months where we had conversations
last week, one on housing, one on childcare, where he
was there with a pen and a notebook, taking notes,
asking questions and coming back with very substantive responses. So

(18:55):
he has absorbed a lot and is now digging deep
on these issues that you know, Ken Griffin expressed concern
about the fact that he made a lot, you know,
raised a lot of expectations, create a lot of idealistic
notions out housing and childcare and how we can do

(19:17):
all this for free. I think he's very quickly figuring
out none of this is free. Raising taxes creates real issues.
You may raise the rates of taxes, but that may
not result in more revenues if you scare people away,
or if you scare companies away, or as we've seen lately,
we've seen a real threat to jobs in New York

(19:38):
for the first time, the first time in my experience
over fifty years, are seeing a decline in the number
of jobs in our financial services industry. Scary thing. That's
forty percent of our state income tax revenues. We don't
I mean, these are you know, we've got to pay attention,
and I think he gets that. But we've got to

(19:58):
be at the table discussing these issues and helping figure
out how to employers help solve the childcare problem.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
Kathy, you know, one of the things I think about,
and I remember, you know, being at Milken years ago
and talking with very wealthy investors who said, yeah, it's
about time we pay more taxes. So what is the balance?
And I am curious among those folks that you talk
to who are very wealthy, and a lot of times
their wealth is not an income, it's assets and it's
investment gained. What do they think, though, should be maybe

(20:31):
more of their contribution. And I know they often contribute
in philanthropy and so on. I know that, but I'm
just curious, what is the balance of willing to pay
more when again, I've had side conversations with folks are
surprised that they aren't pay more in taxes.

Speaker 11 (20:48):
So what I've found and for somebody who's upper income
earned income in New York, which is the you know,
our biggest tax payers, we're paying fifty five percent of
our income to the federal, state and city government with
you all in so we're paying more more than half
my paycheck goes to the federal government. So it's not

(21:10):
like we're getting away with something. For the very wealthy
who are capital gains, et cetera. The big problem there
is if they move their legal residents out of New
York City, get we don't.

Speaker 10 (21:23):
Share or get taxes.

Speaker 11 (21:25):
They aren't taxed here on the basis of their global income,
and so we may get their a piece of their paycheck.

Speaker 10 (21:34):
But not their wealth. And that's a big question. It is.

Speaker 11 (21:38):
But what I found is over many years, when business
leaders and the big taxpayers are at the table and
they see that number one government is doing what they
can to figure out, how do we offer the most efficient,
the most effective services at the lowest cost possible. How

(21:58):
do we make government more fishient. On the one hand,
then so then you begin to narrow, So what's the
delta in terms of what what do we need to
raise revenues for. So for example, when Dick Ravage in
two thousand and seven, for Governor Patterson led the effort
to figure out how are we going to pay to

(22:19):
upgrade our subways which were falling apart, we supported, and
the business community supported, creating a payroll mobility tax where
a portion of payrolls of corporations employers who were in
the metropolitan region would go to that eighty two percent
of the employees who work for our companies based in
Manhattan take the public transit to get here. That was

(22:41):
something everybody signed off on. We supported. We supported an
increase in that tax twice. Same thing with congestion pricing,
we supported congestion pricing. Obviously a user fee where you
get something reduce congestion more time in.

Speaker 10 (22:56):
Your day, is easier to sell. So it is.

Speaker 11 (23:00):
And actually, when Mike Bloomberg was elected mayor right after
nine to eleven, the city had to raise real estate
taxes in order to rebuild and recover from the nine
to eleven shock. We supported that eighteen percent tax increase
in real estate taxes. So it's not that we're anti
all taxes. Is government doing what they can to keep

(23:22):
costs down, to be responsible in what they're spending. And
then what is the contribution and how do we make
it that makes the most sense, gets the most bang
for the buck.

Speaker 4 (23:31):
Just very briefly, because you spent such a big part
of your career working on affordable housing, I'm wondering if
the mayor is sticking to freezing rent as his solution
for affordability, because not one person that we have spoken
to over the last few months thinks that not increasing
supply and rather freezing rent is the right way.

Speaker 9 (23:51):
To approach the affordability crisis with housing.

Speaker 11 (23:54):
Well, the new mayor is very well aware that those
are not mutually exclusive options and that if there's no
economic return, nobody's going to build housing. He's figured that out.
So he has He has said really since pre primary
that he understood the private sector had an important role
in the supply side, and he was going to work

(24:16):
on that. So I think that again, his view is
much more nuanced when he says now when he talks
about freezing the rent, he says, and one thing that'll
enable us to do that is if we do reduce
property taxes on rent stabilized regulated buildings.

Speaker 10 (24:30):
So he gets it. He can add and subtract.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
So can you come back?

Speaker 4 (24:35):
I said, you said, we had an hour of an
hour hours worth of question barely scratched the.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Service, but we still appreciate Kathy. Thank you, Good luck,
Thank luck having Kathy Wilde, president and CEO at going
president and CEO of the Partnership for New York City,
part of the transition team of the New York City
mayor elect, and of course, our Bloomberg News senior reporter,
Miles Miller.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
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Writing about it for Bloomberg Business Week, Zeke Fox and
Max Abelson. Zeke is Bloomberg News investigations reporter and author
of Number Go Up. Inside Crypto's Wild Rise and Staggering Fall.
Max Abelson is Bloomberg News Finance reporter.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
We just got to start with some basics here before
we get into the shadowy web that spans like cafes
in New York City and Singapore, which you guys travel,
which you Zeke travel to Singapore. Memecoin been arount for
more than a decade. Started with the Doggie But what
are they?

Speaker 13 (26:03):
Yeah, So the first one was doge Coin. It was
kind of intended as a joke, like a parody. This
guy he liked crypto and he was like, why are
people making these dumb cryptocurrencies. I'll make the dumbest one
I can think of, And then it kind of took off.
But in the last couple of years there's been this
huge boom in meme coins. It's kind of like this
trend where people just pick anything that's in the news,

(26:27):
say a little like six seven, like the joke the
kids like, they'll slap it on a coin. The coin
transparently doesn't do anything, but people just sort of gamble
on the idea of it attracting attention and other people
jumping in. They all sort of follow this pattern of
going up and then crashing, and you're these gamblers are
looking for the next one.

Speaker 4 (26:48):
So Max, let's let's go back to January of this year,
just a few days before the president is inaugurated for
his second term.

Speaker 14 (26:56):
What happens, Well, you know, there was so much going
on that week and that it's easy to forget, but
there was like an actual kind of crypto ball, and
that might not have been like a real official title,
but it was certainly this big crypto ball and it
costs a lot of money, and it was like, it
was like twenty five hundred bucks to get in, and
we spoke to people who are there. Actually, I think
maybe one of my favorite interviews this year was with
George Santos, the disgraced congressman. He was honestly a delight

(27:19):
to interview. I have to say, he was there. He
talked about how he skipped the line because he was like,
I'm George Santos, Like George Santos doesn't wait onlines, and he.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Tim kind of says that too occasionally.

Speaker 14 (27:29):
You know what Tim Tim would, Yeah, we zeke and
I wait online. So they go into the Crypto ball
So it's a room full and this is the Melon
Auditorium in Washington by the Washington Mall. Is if it
is a fancy space and it's a room full of
of course, you know, crypto people, crypto investors, crypto executives, influencers,
and phones start going off. At one point I think

(27:50):
it's just before Snoop Dogg is about to perform, I believe,
and they find out that Donald Trump has launched a
mean coin. And I think one of the first thoughts
on people's minds was like, this can't be real. And
the thing is it was real. And one thing that
I just loved about working with Zeke is that he
explains in our Business Week story sort of the shades

(28:11):
of realness. On the one hand, it really was true,
Donald Trump really did launch a meme coin, right as
he was on the edge of becoming, you know, the
most important person in the entire universe. But on the
other hand, it's it's lacking in a certain kind of
realness as we usually think about assets, A meme coin
has a certain kind of like existential nothingness, you know,

(28:32):
it's it's sort of it's it's vacant by design. It
doesn't give you rights to future profits. It basically represents
nothing but itself. And it's investigators, excuse me, it's investors,
as Zeke and I wrote, are basically investing in sort
of nothing but speculation. It's speculating in speculation itself, as
I believe this man said.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
And because of that, nobody makes money. Right, So it's
kind of like sarcasm.

Speaker 13 (28:58):
I mean, it's kind of like a it's a zero
sum game, right, Like some people are going to get
in early and make money. Other people are going to
get in late. They're going to be left holding the bag,
except that whoever created the coin, their goal is obviously
to get paid, and they're going to suck out a
lot of like the total amount that's been gambled on
this coin.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
You guys write a little bit about pump and dump
schemes like Wolf of Wall Street boiler room style in
the piece, and you draw distinction between what's happening with
meme coins from a regulatory perspective versus what would happen
with a traditional stock penny stock.

Speaker 8 (29:33):
Talk about that a little bit, Zeke.

Speaker 13 (29:34):
Yeah, I mean, if you think about what was happening
at Stratton Oakmont, like the boiler room depicted in the
Wolf of Wall Street. You've got all these salesmen who
are on the phone calling you know, retired dentists and
being like, you got to get in on this hot
new gold mine stock, and this would drive the stock up.
And then eventually whoever had like created this promotion would

(29:55):
secretly have holdings of it they dump, the stock would
go back down, but the sale, the people who bought
these stocks were had to be tricked. You had to
convince them like this was a pretty cool gold mine
that should invest in with meme coins. The people who
are gambling on them. Basically know the drill, and they
know that whoever creates the coin is going to want
to dump once it gets going, and that they are

(30:18):
like seeking out this pump and dump game.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
Then the SEC does not look favorably on the equity,
the stock side of this, But what about the meme
coin side of this?

Speaker 13 (30:27):
So the meme coins were in a pretty like gray area.
No one really knew what to make of it. There
hadn't regulators, hadn't really taken any action. It'd been weird
enough that most of the better celebrities had stayed away
before Trump. The most famous was probably Caitlyn Jenner, but.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
I forgot about that one.

Speaker 13 (30:46):
Three weeks after Trump's inauguration, after he had created his
own meme coin, the Trump administration's Securities and Exchange Commission
came out and said, Hey, you know what, these meme coins.
They're fine, not securities, not our business. That wouldn't stop
maybe someone else from regulating them, but no one has
stepped up at this point.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
So let's talk about the money. This is an administration.
We talk about it being transactional. We talk about some
say grift going on, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 10 (31:12):
There's a lot that goes back.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
And forth, but this is made right the president and
his family some real money, hundreds of millions of dollars.

Speaker 15 (31:21):
Yea.

Speaker 13 (31:21):
Yeah, so Trump made about three hundred million from launching
his meme coin, according to estimates from crypto tracing firms,
and then that same weekend, Mulania launched her own meme
coin and likely create collected another forty or fifty million.
I mean, this is like the easiest money they've ever

(31:42):
made for like a couple tweets.

Speaker 4 (31:44):
And now those of the as we mentioned, those cryptocurrencies
have plummeted more than ninety percent from their peak. So Max,
let's get into a little bit of the shadowy global
network that helped the president make these meme coins. Were
we look at the blockchain as this entity that kind
of allows us to see who does what, But it
was kind of a challenge to get to the bottom

(32:05):
of who actually helped the president. Who are some of
the characters that you and Zeke found.

Speaker 14 (32:09):
Yeah, honestly, it would be so much cooler if we
could sit here and look at you and be like,
we honestly did crack this, and there's like no mystery
left and we can explain it all. The truth is,
I cannot look you in the eye and say that
in good faith does.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
Not mean you did not meet some people along the way.

Speaker 16 (32:26):
We did.

Speaker 14 (32:26):
It's all about the friends you make along the way.
That's why we get to journalism. And you know, I
have to say for viewers who haven't ready yet, you know,
my co writer on this story wrote a book called
Number Go Up that I mean, it's certainly the funniest
and probably realistically the best book about the crypto industry
that exists. And so I felt a little bit by comparison,

(32:47):
kind of like a babe in the woods as we
started this, because I was working with someone who really
really understands how this works. But he was very generous
with me, and we kind of took it a step
by the time, a step at a time. I think
the first thing we did is to meet someone who
you'd really want to stop it and talk to you
if you're trying to understand meme coins, and that is
one of the creators of something called pump Fun And

(33:09):
this young man and his name is Alon Colin.

Speaker 17 (33:11):
I mean, I'm in my forties.

Speaker 14 (33:13):
I believe Allen was like twenty one when we met
him maybe twenty twenty two. He is part of this
small group that has launched this marketplace for meme coins
where if you want, like right now, you could go
and start the Carol coin and you could do it
with how long.

Speaker 16 (33:32):
Would it take a few minutes.

Speaker 8 (33:34):
Like ten seconds.

Speaker 17 (33:35):
And it's this.

Speaker 14 (33:37):
Remarkable, slightly gross, certainly immature marketplace because the whole idea
that I think if you were here, he would say
that the grossness is it's not a bug. It's a
feature that people get to do whatever they want, and
that whatever people find funny, whatever grabs people attention, it

(33:57):
can be commodified and it can be sold. Now, to
be fair, that is not where the Trump point launched.
So after we sort of understood pump on, then we
had to go sort of make a slight pivot.

Speaker 13 (34:08):
Yeah, so we got nobody. Last you said, nobody took
responsibility for helping the Trumps. Was just a little weird.
But a clue emerged a few weeks later when another
president launched a meme coin. This was Javier Marlay, the
president of Argentina.

Speaker 8 (34:24):
Of Chainsaw fame.

Speaker 13 (34:25):
Yeah, and it's kind of weird in meme coins everyone, So,
like I said, everyone knows the drill, but still they
have their own.

Speaker 8 (34:32):
Code of ethics.

Speaker 13 (34:33):
And the Malay coin really set people off because it crashed.
Instead of waiting like a couple of days to crash,
it crashed within hours and Malay, who had promoted it
with a tweet, deleted his tweet, which was just not
seen as fair play. And after this Malay coin debacle,
this previously unknown crypto bro named Hayden Davis came forward.

(34:57):
He's twenty eight years old, he'd kind he'd been in
involved in NFTs, he'd sort of but was not like
a well known guy. And he said, I am Javier
Malay's advisor. We were creating this coin for the people
of Argentina. And then he gave a series of uh
increasingly ill advised interviews in which he talked about how

(35:18):
meme coins are rigged, how they're sort of insider trading
of a sort within meme coins, and then he said
that he had helped uh Milania Trump with with her coin.

Speaker 8 (35:30):
And you know, I.

Speaker 13 (35:32):
Thought to myself, like, could the could this be? Is
this really? Is this really true? How did and how
did he connect with Milania? And it turned out that
luckily for us, he had been quite a boastful guy
who loved to text like crazy stuff to his friends,
and we were able to review some messages that he'd

(35:53):
sent to associates where he clearly did know that Milania's
coin was coming, like suggesting this was true, and where
he even hinted that maybe he'd been involved in Trump's coin.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
We got to leave it there, guys, Zeke Max, check
out the story. It's the Bloomberg A big take. You
can find it at the Bloomberg terminal. We just scratched
the service.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
We know you want more.

Speaker 9 (36:15):
This is Bloomberg.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch
us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern.
Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg
Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
Let me a hend our second hour of our first
weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week of twenty twenty six.
It's an hour dedicated to something we like to feature
from time to time here on Bloomberg Business Week. And
we were talking about the wine and spirits industry, from
market trends to the story behind the label. And yeah,
sometimes we do a little sampling.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
This hour, the perfect wine pairing for your next dinner
party with the CEO of Duckhorn tapping into a mega
wine experiences in Uruguay and regenerative farming techniques in wine
making with the CEO of Maison.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
Mirabau, plus the business of bourbon with the retired Kernel
behind Lofted Spirits first up this hour. It's not been
an easy year though for those in the business of
selling alcohol, thanks to a consumer pullback, changing tastes and trends,
high costs, supply chain disruptions, and of yes, tariff uncertainty.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
What used to sell itself now needs a sharper story
and an even sharper strategy. Robert Hanson is CEO of
the Duckhorn Portfolio. It's a premium American wine company known
for high end Napa Valley Coastal California wines. He discussed
his strategy along with a wine tasting with a fun
trio Bloomberg's Alexis, Christopherus, Christina Quino, and Bailey Lipschultz, who

(37:44):
filled in for us while we were.

Speaker 18 (37:45):
Out Just for context. So Dughorn Portfolio is the twentieth
largest wine marketer in the US by volume two point
eight million cases this year, so not a small place.
And you know, you know some of their brands, Yards,
Golden Eye, Paradox, Migration. Oh, you're pouring wine for us.
Now what are we what are we having?

Speaker 5 (38:07):
Baileies normally in equities.

Speaker 19 (38:10):
Yeah, So this is the Decoy Featherweight caps off twenty
twenty three. Low Caw we were talking about it in
the green room, so low Caw low alc. Kind of
catering to the younger generation.

Speaker 20 (38:21):
Sure, first, thanks for having me, you know, excited to
be here on your Netflix and.

Speaker 8 (38:26):
Chill day, I guess.

Speaker 9 (38:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (38:28):
We're we're going to taste first.

Speaker 20 (38:30):
As we talk, We're going to taste the Decoy Featherweight
Cabernet Sevignon. It's the recent launch, most recent innovation in
our Decoy Featherweight offering, which is the largest and fastest
growing low lower alcohol, lower calorie offering within the wine category.
The cabernet is really unique. It's about nine percent alcohol,

(38:51):
about eighty calories per serving. That's about a third less
alcohol than a typical cabernet and about fifty percent of calories.
It's tough to achieve a great tasting cabernet. Somnil that's
low Alcan locale. So give it a taste and tell
us what you think.

Speaker 18 (39:05):
It's delicious and you know what, I don't need to
necessarily have it with food. It's just like good straight
up on its own.

Speaker 20 (39:12):
Yeah, it's it's addressing. You know, there's a lot that's
been reported about the dislocation of the wine market. You know,
we're excited about what we've achieved this year. We're excited
about twenty twenty six. Twenty twenty six is the fiftieth
anniversary of the founding of the company. Dan and Margaret
Duckhorn founded the company fifty years ago on Murlau, which
we're going to taste as well at the different a
different end of the market that when we just tasted

(39:34):
about twenty five dollars a bottle, the Murleau will taste
is one of our high end luxury estate Murlau's. But
we're excited about what's happening. This wine we just tasted
is leaning into one of the trends that's impacting, especially
younger consumers consumption in the category. All younger consumers are
looking for value. Pricing matters a lot they're looking for.

(39:55):
They're very conscious about consuming things that are better for them,
so having a better mint, introduction and innovation in the.

Speaker 8 (40:01):
Category is important.

Speaker 20 (40:04):
We're about to celebrate the first year anniversary of taking
the company private with Duckcorn, with Butterfly Equity our sponsor.
They only invest in food and beverage. They understand craftsmanship.
You know, if you're going to put it across your lips,
it's got a taste yummy. And we've got a strategy
of competing in the best neighborhood, the best street in
the neighborhood, in the best house on the street.

Speaker 18 (40:23):
So that was about a year ago that they came in.
So and this company has been has been public, has
been taken private a couple of times, a few times.
What changes have happened? I mean you actually started with
the company earlier this year February, so, but what changes
have been made now that this private equity company has
come in and just sees this past year.

Speaker 20 (40:41):
Yeah, well, look, we for the reasons I just explained,
we think Butterfly Equity is a great sponsor, a great
partner for us. What I would say is one of
the superpowers of the company I respected when I first
got to know it is the agility, the ability to
innovate at the pace of the consumer marketplace, and the
market is demanding, and consumers expect you to meet them
on their place field, on their terms. That's how Butterfly

(41:02):
thinks what's changed. I would say the agility is the
pace of the agility of the company has picked up.
We've made some significant progress in a very short period
of time. If I reflect upon the analogy I just provided,
neighborhood street house, we compete in the fifteen and above
price segment. The market's been dislocated a bit. We can

(41:24):
talk about that, but that's been driven by below fifteen
and especially below ten, so we compete in the right neighborhood.
One of the best examples of what's changed, we did
a portfolio construction exercise over the past nine months.

Speaker 8 (41:36):
Where we looked at our whole portfolio.

Speaker 20 (41:37):
Eleven brands we've concentrated on seven and four are really
high growth core brands because we're winning with fewer things
and focusing on the winners that matter, big clear lanes
of competition, exceptional lines that compete against the best in
the category, and we've actually increased our addressable market by

(41:58):
almost two billion dollars from two billion to four billion
in that exercise and then the proofs in the putting
so Best House on the Street. The team, I'm really
proud of them, have grown our market share from ten
point four percent to eleven point seven percent during our
whole period. So it's been a busy, busy year. We've
got a lot of air to travel. You'll hear Duck analogies.

(42:20):
We don't talk ground.

Speaker 8 (42:21):
We talk to air.

Speaker 20 (42:22):
You'll hear Duck analogies when we talk a lot. But
we have a lot of air to cover. But we're
excited about what we've accomplished so far.

Speaker 19 (42:29):
I just want to ask before I get ready to
pour them or low when you think about kind of
the recovery we have so much.

Speaker 8 (42:34):
Dailey likes this part. He likes more this is the best.

Speaker 19 (42:37):
But when you think about kind of the state of
the economy, it does seem like the upper five to
ten percent of the US consumer is better off than
really the bottom ninety percent. Thinking about higher price wine,
better wine. As you mentioned best house on the best block,
how do you think about attacking that consumer and whether
you're seeing growth from them.

Speaker 20 (42:55):
Yeah, great question, Bayway. We're very conscious of it is
to remain a premium, fine and luxury still wine competitor. However,
and I'll give you two examples, specifically on price, We've
talked about the better example, and then I want to
talk to you about consumer experiences with the focus, especially

(43:16):
for younger consumers, on purchasing power. There's a little nervousness
around the social, political, and kind of economic environment. We're
conscious of that. So two ways we've reacted. One, we
introduced an amazing new brand called green Wing, which is
a fifteen to twenty dollars a bottle winery brand with

(43:37):
amazing cabernet from Washington and a Pina noir and pinogrigio
from Willammett Valley and organ that fifteen to twenty dollars
bottle of wine can translate into a twelve dollars by
the glass program if you're at a restaurant. A lot
of younger consumers say they get more value out of
spirits or other categories. This is providing them an entry
point into the wine category, kind of not telling them

(43:58):
what to drink. That inviting them into our portfolio into
the wine category based on value. And on the higher
end of the market, we had our We made a
price adjustment on our Duckcorn vineyards Knap and Valley Cabernet.
It was it was priced at seventy two dollars. We
took the price down to sixty because it's a larger

(44:19):
addressable market and frankly even for a fine wine consumer
that can buy wine at that level, recognizing we could
produce the same or better quality, maintain or really we've
got a structurally advantaged operating model with great margins. We
could maintain our margins and put out a more sharp
price point for them. We're just meeting people on their
terms in this economic environment and growing as a result.

Speaker 18 (44:41):
If you heard the pouring behind us and the popcorn
the core popping is because we are having some Duckhorn
portfolio wine.

Speaker 21 (44:48):
Right.

Speaker 19 (44:48):
This is what we're about to taste is the twenty
two Murleau. And remind me, why is this a particularly
nice Merlow?

Speaker 20 (44:56):
This is an exceptional Marlo. Now I'm going to tell
you I've got a personal bias. I'm a Merleau fan.
Not everyone can remember, but I remember Sideways I was
gonna make the jew I filmed from twenty years ago
that said you shouldn't drink Brlow completely wrong.

Speaker 8 (45:10):
Murrellau, in my opinion, is the best varietal.

Speaker 10 (45:12):
Loved that movie.

Speaker 20 (45:15):
Love the movie, didn't love what it did. For Merlou
Murlau is the easiest drinking wine. Super great to pair
with lots of different food choices. It's an easy drinking Barrietal.
This wine is my favorite in our entire portfolio for
two reasons. One, Dan and Margaret Duckhorn, who respected nature,
the craft of wine making and hospitality, introduced this wine

(45:37):
as their first introduction fifty years ago. And we're celebrating
our fiftieth anniversary next year and feel really good about
the momentum of the company. It's an estate wine. It's
a blend of ninety two percent me low, seven percent
cabin one percent Cabernet franc It is a luxury wine,
so it trays for between one hundred and twenty and
one hundred and fifty dollars a bottle. But it's a

(45:58):
beautiful wine, and I encourage all of your audience.

Speaker 8 (46:05):
It is a great right right here.

Speaker 22 (46:08):
Well our for audiences who are just joining us right now.
We are here in the studio talking line and drinking
wine with our guests.

Speaker 10 (46:16):
Here.

Speaker 22 (46:16):
Robert Hansen CEO of the Duckcorn portfolio, as well as
Bluer News equities reporter Bailey Lipshaltz. So, Robert, you know,
I want to touch on what you said earlier, right
about the process of kind of going public, then private
and then back again. And so you know, you mentioned
agility was one thing that really kind of was sustained
in the company throughout those changes, and you know, talk

(46:39):
to us about how that's serving you now that the
market is changing so rapidly. We have, on the one hand,
gen Z drinkers who just consume less alcohol overall, and
it seems like that's something that is maybe permeating throughout
the broader American public.

Speaker 15 (46:54):
Right.

Speaker 22 (46:55):
I think a Gallup was saying that just fifty four
percent of Americans in general say they drink alcohol.

Speaker 5 (46:59):
That's a right.

Speaker 22 (47:00):
How is the company thinking about these kind of structural
changes among consumers?

Speaker 20 (47:04):
Yeah, well, I meant great question. And as I mentioned earlier,
it's true as reported that the market's been dislocated. That
being said, we compete in the segment of the market
that has tailwinds fifteen and above, and we're segmented from
fifteen dollars a bottle up to three hundred dollars a bottle.

Speaker 8 (47:20):
So in still Wine, we are.

Speaker 20 (47:22):
The best house on the street, and we're growing because
we're competing from fifteen to three hundred. We've got a
segmentation of our portfolio that meets most consumers' needs. More specifically, though,
you know, a lot's been written about the betterment trend,
about drinking less but better quality. That is the focus

(47:44):
of this portfolio. So you ask the question, what's different.
We've got our eye on the horizon. We're very much
focused on meeting the consumer on their playing field, on
their terms. They want to buy great value, they want
to buy great quality, they want lower alcohol content in
some cases, want to drink less but better quality. Our
whole portfolio is about that. We encourage our consumers to

(48:06):
drink you know, less but better quality, drink responsibly. We're
meeting the consumer on their playing field.

Speaker 9 (48:11):
There's kind of.

Speaker 20 (48:11):
Three trends that we've addressed, value, betterment, and then the
consumer experience of consuming wine.

Speaker 8 (48:18):
Here's one point I'll make.

Speaker 20 (48:19):
Though wine's been around for six millennia, it's a community
based product right there, all right.

Speaker 18 (48:26):
Bloomberg's Robert Hansen of Duckcorn portfolio.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast. Listen live
each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car
Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You
can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship
New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Speaker 9 (48:48):
I know you are always ready.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
We're ready, always ready.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
So our Bloomberg Purceeds team out with a last minute
gift guide for whiskey, wine and spirits lovers, and it
states something I think we can all agree with, Carol,
an unexpected bottle of booze is allways welcome around the holidays.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yes, indeed, retired, We're expected.

Speaker 9 (49:05):
We're expected.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
I didn't expect that from you, retired. Colonel Mark Erin
is the CEO of Lofted Spirits. It's the parent company
of Bardstown Bourbon and Green River Distilling Company. It's one
of the largest distillers in the United States, and he
joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio along
with David Weston, who is, of course the host of
Wall Street Week and maybe partakes in bourbon. Everyone's great

(49:26):
to have you both here with us. Mark tell us
about kind of your journey. I want to just start there.
Because you served in the US Army over twenty five years.
You're ultimately Chief of Staff of the US Army Special
Operations Command. How do you go from there? And there's
a lot of stuff in between as well, but how
do you then get to hear?

Speaker 15 (49:45):
Yeah, so walk and relationships. Bottom line, I've had great
luck throughout my life. I've been a sports enthusiast all
my life and grew up playing sports. The Army is
really a sport in itself, a competition and a a
team building exercise every day, and I spent twenty six
years loved it. Got out of the military and wanted

(50:06):
to do something different than government contracting, which is what
most people do. With my skill set, ran into some
great people and a good friend that David knows well
became a mentor and a good friend of me, John Mack,
who you all will have heard.

Speaker 17 (50:22):
Of obviously, head of Marshas Stanley.

Speaker 15 (50:24):
John became a great friend and mentored me, and John
was actually asked to be on the board of margetown
bourbon company. He had loaned our founder Peter offten money
throughout the years, and John thought I knew something about whiskey.
I drank whiskey, but didn't know anything about the Spirit's business.
But John asked me to check out the company. I
went and checked it out, became on the board, and

(50:45):
then ultimately about six and a half years ago, was
asked to come and run the company. Really a team
of built a team, and that's what it's been about
for me, just that kind of you know, creating something
where people are proud to come to work every day
is probably the most important thing for me.

Speaker 4 (51:02):
Well, you spent the first part of your career leading
a lot of people. You led a thirty five one
hundred man task force in Operation Iraqi Freedom. You teamed
with coalition partners in Iraqis conducting stability operations throughout Iraq.
That's just like one percent of what you did over
your career in the military. How do you How does
leading a company differ from actually leading in the US

(51:24):
Armed Forces?

Speaker 9 (51:26):
Look or how is it?

Speaker 15 (51:27):
There's a thing out here in this in the commercial
world that I've run into called the what's in it
for me?

Speaker 16 (51:31):
Factor?

Speaker 17 (51:32):
And that's a big issue, and not saying.

Speaker 16 (51:35):
It's wrong, it's it's real.

Speaker 15 (51:36):
People have to worry about their families worry about what
they're getting paid. That's a that's something that I didn't
deal with for twenty six years because everybody knew what
they were getting paid, everybody was on a team, everybody
had a goal in a mission. So fighting through those
things to try to create a company where literally people
place the importance of their job as something that's that's

(51:58):
a party that I am. Build an organization that folks
are proud to be a part of and actually want
to see that company succeed. That's the kind of thing
that I came from in the militarym We've I think
done a pretty good job of doing that. If you
come visit us at Bortstown or Green River, you'll see
that in our people. We get comments all the time
about our people and our team, and that's what makes

(52:19):
this place special for me.

Speaker 23 (52:20):
Mark typically is being a little honest here because from
my vantage point, because I saw John Mack persuade you
a fair amount at his house, and what I understood
is they had a great product, and John Mack believed
it was a great product, but the company had, let's say,
upside in what he could do with that product. And
Mark came in as far as I can tell I

(52:40):
want to say, turn it around, really built it into
something really powerful, which had the potential all along.

Speaker 9 (52:45):
I think Mark.

Speaker 15 (52:46):
The company was in a great spot, had an awesome
growth path. Unfortunately, our founder passed away three months after
he pugged me in, so we needed to go look
for a partner who could help us grow. We brought
in a private equity firm out of Chicago that's been
a fabulous partner to us and truly enabled the growth
to where we are now the largest custom distiller for

(53:06):
spirits in Kentucky. We've grown two great brands, and that
business model allows us to do the things that most
brands cannot do. Young brands can afford right now to
invest the way we're investing behind these two brands. And
both Bartstown and Green River are two of the fastest
growing brands in the US right now. And it's because
of this making whiskey for others, copacking on bottling, all

(53:30):
these different assets that we bring to our clients that
enable us to go and invest in these two brands.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
That's what I thought was interesting. And I'm going to
start doing a little bit of a poor here so
that you can tell us about some of what we've
got here, But it is you work with others who
want to start a brand. I mean, it's a crowded space.
So I'm just curious how you think about who you
want to partner with and how do you do something
that stands out in the shell.

Speaker 16 (53:51):
So we really have two different entities.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
And what am I pouring here?

Speaker 15 (53:54):
Okay, so you are pouring You're actually pouring the world's
best bourbon according to New York Spirits Wine and Spirits.

Speaker 16 (54:03):
Competition as of this year.

Speaker 15 (54:06):
So that is the top top bourbon in the world.
It's our Green River Weeded bourbon and that's a thirty.

Speaker 16 (54:15):
Five dollars bourbon.

Speaker 15 (54:16):
Compete togeinst all these other bourbons in a blind tape.

Speaker 18 (54:18):
They do a bigger port.

Speaker 16 (54:20):
You should do it. You should do a perfect court.

Speaker 8 (54:21):
But that's a really low price.

Speaker 16 (54:23):
That is a low price point.

Speaker 15 (54:25):
Is a low price that's you know, we're in the
super premium and ultra premium price points and those are
the two price points in American whiskey that are growing.
American whiskey is down over the last year, yeah, down
two to three percent. You know, with all the different
things that are going on around around spirits and international
trade and everything else. So luckily, what we're doing behind

(54:46):
these two brands is making them grow the way we
need them to.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
And before we all take a step take take us
back to so that when you work with someone, how
do you figure out who you want to work with?

Speaker 24 (54:54):
Right?

Speaker 3 (54:54):
And because it is, there's a lot out there.

Speaker 17 (54:57):
Yeah, you know, look, I'll tell you.

Speaker 15 (55:00):
Three years ago, we didn't have much competition and people
saw the business model, and now there's a lot of competition.

Speaker 17 (55:04):
We used to kind of get just to get choose
who we wanted.

Speaker 8 (55:07):
To work with.

Speaker 15 (55:08):
Now there's competition out there. So we are truly the
only ones who are providing grain to glass service, meaning
we're going to help you design your whiskey, we'll make
it for you, we'll store it for you, and then
we'll get it ready to go to market. With our
world class bottom facility. We're helping our clients in so
many different ways, you know, whether it be unique financing modes.

Speaker 16 (55:29):
You know, that's been probably.

Speaker 15 (55:32):
The biggest issue for our industry over the last few years.
People talk about tariffs, we had financing issues.

Speaker 16 (55:37):
Before we had tariffs, there.

Speaker 15 (55:39):
Was a lot of negative chatter about alcohol and spirits
in general. You know, young people aren't drinking supposedly. See
the GLP drugs and the impact that those are having.
All these different issues creating some negative chatter. But what
we're seeing today is an opportunity where I think savvy
investors are starting to get in. We're going We're getting

(56:00):
a lot of inbound from family offices and private equity
who want to create funds to specifically invest in whiskey
because they see the low end of a market and
an opportunity for reasonable rate to return, where four years
ago I would have told you it was kind of
a crazy rate of return. Yeah, now it's reasonable, and

(56:21):
I think people are seeing that and coming back in well,
not exactly the same.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
I grew up though my dad made a mean whiskey
sour and you would say Nazadrovia because I'm Slovak, So anyway, Nazdovia.
But tell us cheers.

Speaker 15 (56:32):
So this is again the number One's the number one
bourbon in the world, according to New York Spirits Competition
Blind Tasting Amazing. This is a weeded bourbon. So Bourbon
is nineteen sixty four. It is our nation spirit, It's
America's native spirit. And it has to be made in

(56:53):
the United States and it has to be predominantly corn
to be bourbon. And then typically you have a flavor grain.
The flavor grain in this is people say wheat is
sweet and smooth.

Speaker 16 (57:04):
The wheat is really kind of.

Speaker 15 (57:05):
Passive compared to rye and allows the sweetness of the
corn to come through.

Speaker 17 (57:09):
So that's kind of what you sense from this as
you sniff.

Speaker 15 (57:12):
It and as you taste it now carefully, it's a
it's a good I don't I know David used to
do the morning show and I don't know his drinking hours.

Speaker 16 (57:20):
This is my first bourbon of to day. So anyways, cheers.

Speaker 23 (57:27):
So while they're drinking, you've grown in a fair amount.
Where's the sky? How far can you take this?

Speaker 9 (57:33):
And what do you need?

Speaker 16 (57:34):
So two different things. Really we have to uh two
separate business lines. Our our core business is making whiskey
for others. Again, that's that's our core.

Speaker 15 (57:45):
That's what pays all the bills and allows us to
invest in these two brands the way we need to.
We're innovating on our core business. We're and small bottling
lines as people want to downside to different package sizes.
We're helping people were making wrong for the first time.
For a client who's doing the ready to drink in
a can. We're bottling Vadkin gin for folks. So we're

(58:08):
innovating on that side to make sure we give our
clients everything we can so that we can continue to
invest behind these two brands.

Speaker 16 (58:15):
Both of these brands are going.

Speaker 15 (58:16):
To be in the top ten of their price point
by middle of next year.

Speaker 16 (58:20):
So we've got to set a new goal.

Speaker 15 (58:22):
That's been our goal for quite a while, and then
we'll get into the international market. We're selling in London,
we're selling in Sydney, and we're selling in Western Canada
right now.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
And you said Green River was about thirty five Bardstown,
same thing.

Speaker 15 (58:35):
Forty five dollars price point on that Bardstown bottled in Bond.

Speaker 16 (58:38):
That's our you know.

Speaker 15 (58:40):
The Bottled in Bond Act was the first really start
of FDA, the Food and Drug Administration, where you had
you were trying.

Speaker 16 (58:49):
To get people to say what's actually in the product.

Speaker 15 (58:51):
So they set the rules behind what it had to
be and it had to be one hunter proof aged
four years at one distiller in one season, so you know,
premitting people from putting tobacco juice for coloring and other
things in it.

Speaker 16 (59:03):
So that's a great product. And again Bartstown Bottled and Bond.

Speaker 23 (59:10):
What do you think, David, Well, I'm actually curious on
the growing part.

Speaker 9 (59:13):
Again, is it capital intensive?

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Twenty second?

Speaker 16 (59:17):
Is capital intensive? We're committing that's again.

Speaker 15 (59:20):
Wow, We've got this unique business model that allows us
to invest in these brands where most brands can't.

Speaker 4 (59:25):
That was Mark Irwin's CEO of Lofted Spirits, David Weston,
host of Bloomberg Wall Street Week, joining us there as well.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
You know, David has always said wait, wait, wait, is
this like, are you guys having an alcohol?

Speaker 4 (59:35):
Hey, we finally Gotpapy to have We.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Finally got him to join.

Speaker 14 (59:38):
It was really a lot of fun.

Speaker 10 (59:40):
All rights still ahead.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
On Bloomberg Business Week, how one family left the London
suburbs for a small village in France all through the
love of wine.

Speaker 4 (59:47):
And then a wine experience by way of Little Tuscany
and Uruguay. This is Bloomberg.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch
us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern
Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg
Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
That's the stuff of fantasies, Carol.

Speaker 10 (01:00:12):
We've talked about this.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Yeah, you quit your corporate job in London. Okay, you
move to the south of France with your three kids,
your wife, you make rose.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):
It sounds magical, it does well.

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
It wasn't a fantasy for Stephen Kronk, the founder and
CEO of Maison Mirabo. He and his wife did exactly that.
It was sixteen, sixteen years ago. It was yeah, wow,
at the height of the global financial crisis.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Talk about timing.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Steven's with us right now here in the Bloomberg Interactive
Brokers studio, and he brought rose. First of all, it's
been a little while since we last spoke.

Speaker 9 (01:00:46):
To here, at least two years.

Speaker 4 (01:00:48):
Yes, yes, how's business been since then?

Speaker 9 (01:00:51):
It's well, it's interesting question. It's been up and down.
I would say, I mean, I think Provence Rose is
still the benchmark for rose around the world, so we're
very lucky we've got that. But there's been a lot
of headwinds, as I'm srure you're aware.

Speaker 4 (01:01:04):
Yeah it Look, there's the climate change headwind, but there's
also the changing consumer tastes headwinds as well as tariffs exactly,
which is the thing that is the biggest headwind.

Speaker 9 (01:01:14):
They all combine together. This is the perfect storm. So
the health kick, there's the cannabis movement, there's the no
and low alcohol movement, there's the zimpic movement because that
suppresses people's desire to have a drink. So it's like
everything and then you load on top of that the tariffs.
It's like, yeah, what has happened?

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
So what does that mean for you guys? Like how
do you pivot? How do you adjust around that?

Speaker 9 (01:01:36):
Well, there's a lot of things we can't change. But
what we try and do is is with the tariffs,
for example, we've tried to swallow as much as we can.
We don't want mirror bou to be much more expensive
in the store, so we've tried to swallow that, which
is it's hard, but we're keeping our fingers crossed that
maybe this is going to change.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
Remind everybody the price range from the United States, so
you don't want the price to go up in the US.

Speaker 9 (01:01:56):
So we generally between twenty and thirty, I mean want
to try and keep below thirty dollars because that's a
price point.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
So then how does that hit your margins?

Speaker 9 (01:02:05):
Yeah, it's not great, but you know, I'd rather build
a brand, and you know, i'd rather people carry on
drinking Mirbo especially you know, we're coming out of Thanksgiving
and Provence Rose is just so good with with turkey.
So you know, I'm just trying to hope this goes
away and just carry on pushing my wines here.

Speaker 8 (01:02:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
Well, you know, and I've said I wasn't a big
Rose drinker, but I've got to say yours is pretty
pretty magical, and I've really enjoyed it, and we're going
to taste it and know Tim is sniffing it out.
You're in the United States, talk to us about the
US market specifically.

Speaker 9 (01:02:35):
So I've started farming regeneratively for some of my wines, right,
and the regenerative movement seems to be centered many around California. Now, yeah, so,
I mean, I'm selling my wines in forty countries, but
California is the epicenter of the regenerative movement. The California
Department of Food and Agriculture has been the first state
to to define the words regenerative agriculture, and meanwhile, we've got,

(01:02:59):
you know, the wine regions, so Paso, Robles, Nappers and Oma.
They are the most regenerative wine areas in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
So what does that mean for one of county where
t is from. But what does that mean that you
would you do more here in the United States?

Speaker 9 (01:03:15):
I'm just trying to sell more wine here. And so
the retailers say, like air One and Sprouts and Bristol
Farms and Hagen's, they're really getting behind the regenerative movement
that they're looking to seek out regenerative.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Farmer because there's an awareness of it right.

Speaker 9 (01:03:29):
Because they know what it means for farmers, they know
what it means for people to.

Speaker 4 (01:03:32):
Not everybody knows what regenerative farming means and especially how
that is applied to farming the grapes that go into wine,
that go into rose. So for for people who don't
know what it is, explain regenerative farming in the context
of Vina culture.

Speaker 9 (01:03:45):
So regenerative, as the name suggested, is about regenerating soil, fertility,
and regenerating nature in simple terms, So you know, it's
the if you think about it, what was organic farming
called before the First World War? Farming right, and then
there was a huge amount of pressure here. Everyone's still
worried about industrial farming, so the heavy tillage and in

(01:04:05):
particular heavy use of chemicals. So there's been a move
certainly since the First World War and the Second World
War as well. We've seen a lot of nitrogen being
used in farms and a lot of heavy tillage, and
a lot of chemicals pesticide and so on, and that's
just been killing our soils. This is a catastrophe. You know,
we were worried about famine at the end of the
Second World War, so rightfully, we were worried about feeding

(01:04:26):
our population. But we haven't been measuring food in the
right value. It've been measured by calories rather than nutrient density.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
So I didn't mean to interrupt, but it was just interesting.
We just came off a discussion of talking about the
cost of meat and just what's going on in that world.
But I do think about, like is our soil globally,
how tortured is it or how bad is it because
of the industrial farming.

Speaker 9 (01:04:49):
A lot of it, most of it, I would say,
is on life support. It's really it's catastrophic. So when
I I was gonna say, when I drive out from
Na to Pazzerobuls, which is one of the most regenerative
regions in in wine up the I five and you
see thousands of acres of fruit trees and nut trees
that are on life support. It's like the moon's surface,
and so it's they're kept life by these excen inputs

(01:05:10):
and what you end up with a product, but they're
not very tasty and they're not very nutritionally dense. So
we need to actually start restoring soil health globally, and
regenerative is a way of doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
So you can do that in terms of all that soil,
how long does it take the process of getting it back.

Speaker 9 (01:05:24):
It can happen quite quickly, and that's one reason why
we so I run a nonprofit as well called the
Regenerative Viticulture Foundation. So viticulture is agriculture for vines, and
we're launching these initiatives called one block challenges. So we
did one in Paso, we've done one, we're doing one
in Napo Opus one in fact a great winery and winery,

(01:05:45):
so we're doing one there on the eighteenth of November,
and we're challenging the growers in Napa and as we
did in Pazo, to just transition one block of their
vineyard to regen for a year and then come back
and see the difference. It's incredible how generous mother nature
is coming back.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
That's Stephen Kraut, the owner of Meissan Mirabeau.

Speaker 16 (01:06:03):
Hey.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
Before we go, how about another story of a family
owned winery, this time in the luscious region of South America.

Speaker 4 (01:06:09):
Since nineteen ninety nine, Bodega Garzone has been making wine
and developing a mega wine experience in Uruguay. Christian Wiley
is Bodega Garzon's managing director. He stopped by to tell
us all about it. You know, when we think about
so called New World wines, I think a lot of
people often think of in South America, maybe Argentina or Chile.
Uruguay not really on the map as a wine destination

(01:06:31):
as much as other areas.

Speaker 8 (01:06:33):
Why as the world.

Speaker 21 (01:06:34):
I mean, it's not on the map because they've been
drinking all their wine they've been making for the last
three three centuries. But then Darson comes into play, and
this is an incredible investment of Don Alejandro Rulgeroni.

Speaker 24 (01:06:47):
It's two hundred and fifty million dollars capex.

Speaker 21 (01:06:50):
It is the largest investor investment ever.

Speaker 24 (01:06:54):
In the industry of wine. And this is right now
in the region or in the world, in the world world. Wow,
this is.

Speaker 21 (01:07:00):
Right next to the beach to the Uruguayan rivie Era.
So you have josseig Nacio, which is like the centrope.

Speaker 4 (01:07:05):
Yeah, if you're watching us on YouTube Bloomberg Originals, you
can see the stunning photos right now.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
And that was showing kind of the investment that you
guys have been making.

Speaker 21 (01:07:13):
So it's and it's it's done in a in a
very if you like, forward thinking way of the most.

Speaker 24 (01:07:20):
Committed to sustainability.

Speaker 21 (01:07:22):
We were the first winery in the world to be
one hundred percent LEADS certified, and we work, you know.

Speaker 24 (01:07:27):
To express the place.

Speaker 21 (01:07:28):
It's a new taroire that is, you know, the vision
is for Albert Antonini, who's like the top wine maker
from from Tuscany. And then one of our pillars is
the experiences, so we have Francis Malman is our chef,
so you experience these beautiful wines with an incredible view
right next to the ocean in a place that it's

(01:07:49):
like the centerpe of South America.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
You don't spend two hundred and fifty million dollars on
capex unless there's growth going on. Tell us about the
business and in terms of topline growth, but it also
sounds like it's also experiential that you guys have incorporated.
So give us you know, we're Bloomberg. We love all
the numbers, So give us an idea in terms of
the growth that you guys have seen.

Speaker 21 (01:08:11):
Well, we've basically gone from a place that didn't grow
vines to a vineyard that has more than a thousand
little parcels, little blocks. We've gone from zero to sixty markets.
We're selling all over the world. It's become the main
brand in Uruguay, but it's also the leader in the States,
to Brazil, to Japan, China, UK and it's it's growing

(01:08:33):
very fast normally.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
And what's fast is it high teens? Is it above that?

Speaker 8 (01:08:41):
Many years?

Speaker 21 (01:08:42):
Wow, doubling the business many years in a row, including Covid,
and as you said, all the different cycles right now.
We've yesterday we toasted to our first year with our
new partners in the US with a wine bow, and
again we did really well in a very tough year.

Speaker 9 (01:09:01):
But you.

Speaker 21 (01:09:02):
Have a level of investment that it's really projected very
very long term.

Speaker 24 (01:09:08):
We have projects for hotels, We have a real estate
on the beach.

Speaker 21 (01:09:13):
Mister Voolgeroni has an incredible a golf course designed by
Phil Michelson and Acha Caa that it's a PGA tour
preferred golf course. We make our own extra virgin olive oil.
So we talked about there are some.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
Universe what is the biggest revenue driver. Is it the winer,
is it the real estate? Ask if it's even the
olive oil.

Speaker 21 (01:09:34):
Yeah, the first one was the olive oil, extra virgin
olive oil, and it's one like the best extra virgin
olive oil in the world. A couple of times. The
winery is the wines. It was driving the revenue. And
it's not just setting wine as a product, it's also
the experiences. So we have fifty thousand visitors a year

(01:09:54):
and this is in the middle of nowhere, as you
just mentioned other why Yeah, and it's all very high
income and networth people. It goes from twenty thousand people
living there in Punta de les De and Garson to
two million tourists around New Years. It's a lot and
a lot of them are celebrities like Clooney or Winneth
Paltrow or Messi or it's.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
Christ say that's kind of our crew.

Speaker 24 (01:10:18):
Care well, I'm here to invite you. You have to
corroborate this.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
Story, right, we only have unfortunately about a minute and
a half or so left. You did bring in some
bottles of wine and tell us about.

Speaker 4 (01:10:29):
What you brought.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
I don't want to mispronounced blasto, tant Alberino, Alvardino.

Speaker 21 (01:10:35):
It will start with the white wine. Yeah, it's this
is Alberdino. We are the main grower of Albardino in
the Americas. It's the white great variety that like the
Queen of Spain. We have the same kind of granite
and Atlantic Ocean influence, similar to Galicia. And this is
actually our best selling wine in the US, perfect for

(01:10:56):
summer or the end of the of the spring of
your top one hundred wine spectator.

Speaker 24 (01:11:02):
So an awesome valley. This is like a twenty two
dollars retail.

Speaker 5 (01:11:06):
That's great.

Speaker 24 (01:11:06):
So there's a beautiful opportunity there.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
Tell us about the other the reds, which I am
a red kind of gal.

Speaker 21 (01:11:13):
Okay, if that's so, this is for you. Uruguay is
the country of Tanat, like Maulbek would be Argentina. Yeah,
this is a great variety from southwest France. It's known
to be rustic and really tannic. We have kind of
tamed that so it's very fresh and vibrant. And it's

(01:11:34):
also been top one hundred Wine Spectator, so we have
insane accolades. Actually, well there, our son is is one
the new World Winery of the year. That's among another
like ten thousand producers.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
I mean those things matter because it really gets people,
whether it comes up in a surge or people you know,
gets noticed. I just got about twenty thirty seconds for
Pilaster tell us about this one.

Speaker 21 (01:11:56):
So this is our this is our grand one our
but astors. Actually the soil is the meteorized granite. It
gives mineralities, so the wines are quite ethereal. We have
a lot of rainfall, so we have very nice natural
Asiniti makes your mouth water.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
That was Christian Wiley, Bodega, Garzon's managing director. And be
sure to check out Ellen McCoy's story on the Bloomberg
and at Bloomberg dot com on how wine will change
in twenty twenty six due to everything from climate impacts
to gen Z's interest in wine bars.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
And that wraps up the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business
Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you for joining us today
and always, as you have throughout twenty twenty five, We're
looking forward to more this year.

Speaker 4 (01:12:34):
I'm Tim Stenebek. Happy New Year.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
Everyone, and I'm Carol Masser. Have a good and safe weekend,
Peace and prosperity, health and happiness. In twenty twenty six,
we so look forward to sharing the new year with you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify,
and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday
afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,
the iHeartRadio tune in, and the Bloomberg Business App. You
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Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - January 2nd, 2026

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Hosts And Creators

Tim Stenovec

Carol Massar

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - January 2nd, 2026