October 3, 2024 • 24 mins
Watch Carol and Tim LIVE every day on YouTube: http://bit.ly/3vTiACF.Journalist Yardena Schwartz discusses her book Ghosts of a Holy War: The 1929 Massacre in Palestine That Ignited the Arab-Israeli Conflict. Dr. Billy Hensley, CEO of the National Endowment for Financial Education, talks about student loans and the need to provide financial literacy.
Hosts: Carol Massar and Tim Stenovec. Producer: Paul Brennan.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
This is Bloomberg Business Week with krol Messer and Tim
Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Well.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
Our coverage the latest out of the Middle East continues
some recent headlines here.
Speaker 5 (00:18):
Today.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
President Biden said G seven nations are discussing sanctions against
Iran in response to the latest attack against Israel. Uran
fired about two hundred ballistic missiles at Israel on Tuesday,
a sharp but brief escalation between Middle Eastern adversaries that
threatened to trigger a fresh round of attacks, as Prime
Minister Benjamin Nettnyahuo vowed to retaliate, and.
Speaker 6 (00:36):
President Biden saying Israel shthold off from attacking Iran's nuclear
facilities in retaliation.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
That was something we got today.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
We got a really timely guest with a historical perspective
to a situation that has been centuries in the making.
Yardnia Schwartz is a journalist and author. Her new book
is Ghosts of a Holy War, the nineteen twenty nine
massacre in Palestine that ignited the Arab Israeli conflict, came
out just yesterday. He joins us from New York. Jardana
before we go back to nineteen twenty nine, which we're
(01:04):
going to get to. You're an expert on the region.
You're someone who spent more than a decade reporting from Israel.
You've studied the history of the region. Weigh in on
the events not just the last two days, but of
the last year.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
First, thank you so much for having me. The events
we're seeing today, in which there is already this broader
war against Israel by Iran and its proxies in the region,
really shows us that this is not a conflict about
land as it has been treated for decades. This is
(01:37):
a holy war, as I argue in my book, and
it needs to be looked at as such. And we
see that very clearly now, in which this war is
not just between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between Iran
and its proxies in Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
For the last year.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
This didn't just start as you said, you know, yes
yesterday or last week. It's been going on and as
I argue in my book, began one century ago with
a massacre and what was then British mandate Palestine.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Well, take us.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
Back to nineteen twenty nine, because it does feel like
we need to understand the history, and I feel like
we have all we continue to be kind of on
a history lesson for those of us not either from
the region, born in the region, lived in the region,
or have some personal impact from it. You know, we're
constantly kind of studying to understand the complicated nature. Somebody
(02:33):
said very simplistically to me, well, it's kind of like
gang wars to some extent because you have so many
different groups.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
How do you see it?
Speaker 6 (02:38):
And how does going back to nineteen twenty nine take
us back there in terms of what happened and how
that helps us maybe understand a little bit better of
where we are today.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
So, so many people begin their conversations around the origins
of this war with years like nineteen sixty seven or
nineteen forty eight, but this conflict began long before that,
actually two decades before. We see the emerging of the
driving forces behind this conflict today, and those forces our religion,
(03:13):
as I said before, but also disinformation, and it was
a campaign of disinformation that led to the horrific massacre
of one of the world's most ancient Jewish communities in
Hebron in what was then British Mandate Palestine in nineteen
twenty nine, and my book elucidates and gripping detail the
parallels between that massacre one century ago and the massacre
(03:37):
of October seventh.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Why do you think so many modern conversations about the
history of the region, at least the modern history, start
in nineteen forty eight and don't go back to nineteen
twenty nine. Why do you think this part of history
has been I don't know if I want to say forgotten.
I have to tell you be honest with you, though
I had no idea about it until we got this book.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, that's an excellent question, and I think it comes
down to people not really being able to wrap their
heads around what is really complicated and a conflict that
has such a long history, and so they try to
look at it in the simplest way possible. And it
makes sense then to begin that story in nineteen forty eight,
(04:17):
But that's like beginning a story in the middle, or
like starting a show at episode twenty five rather than
episode one. And episode one was this massacre in nineteen
twenty nine that really set the stage with the conflict,
because you see the emergence of what has become a
very prominent lie that is told around alak samosque it
(04:42):
is the third holiest site in Islam, and it sits
upon the ruins of the ancient Jewish temples in Jerusalem,
and that the Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism.
And that kind of tells you why religion is such
a big play, such a big role in this conflict.
But the room that is still told by Muslim leaders
(05:03):
today is that the Jews of what was then Palestine
were planning to conquer al Alczamosk. That was the lie
that led to the massacre of nineteen twenty nine, and
that lie continues to be told today by groups like
Hamas or the Iitola of Iran Hezballah. And you can
(05:24):
just look at the name that Hamas gave to its
operation on October seventh. It was called Alaksa flood. Because
this lie about what the Jews of Palestine in nineteen
twenty nine or today Israel, this lie that they're trying
to conquer al Azamosk to rebuild the ancient Jewish temple
is such a powerful force, a galvanizing force in the region,
(05:48):
and corrupt leaders like the leader of Palestinian Muslims under
British rule in nineteen twenty nine, have managed to distract
criticism of corruption, nepotism is appropriation of funds. For the
last century, They've been able to distract their people from
their own failures by holding on to this lie that
(06:08):
is so powerful.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
So so then I guess I'm trying to figure out
where we go from here, because you know, when you
say we're seeing parallels of nineteen twenty nine and what
happened roughly one year ago with the Hamas attack on Israel,
is it happening again because of this?
Speaker 5 (06:31):
You know, the lies? You know, like what why? How
do we break it?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Then?
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Like, if we know their lies, how do we break it?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
That's such a great question. I'm so glad you're asking that,
because it's actually much bigger than that, because that's just
one lie that has been told. But also after the
massacre of nineteen twenty nine and after the master of
October seventh, we see this widespread denial of the atrocities
that were committed against innocent men, women, children, babies. The
(07:05):
parallels between the atrocities committed one century ago and the
atrocities committed on October seventh were so hauntingly similar, and
so were the denials that immediately followed that massacre. And
at the same time as denial, there was also victim blaming.
You know, our bleeders in nineteen twenty nine said there
were no atrocities, but a day later said, oh, the
(07:27):
atrocities were committed by Jews in Hebron. And we saw
the same thing after October seventh, you know, people denying
that those atrocities took place, that women were raped, and
yet also blaming Israel for the massacre or blaming the
victims for what happened to them. And I think that
really bringing peace this region has so much to do
(07:51):
with ending that disinformation, ending this cycle of disinformation that
leads to more massacres. I mean, you asked about nineteen
forty eight earlier. That's another example of denial. I mean
so many, so many people speak about nineteen forty eight,
speak about the expulsion and the you know, what happened
to Palestinians in nineteen forty eight, but they don't speak
(08:13):
about the war that was waged against the unborn Jewish
state that led to their expulsion.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
I want to get right back to our guest Yardana Schwartz,
a journalist and author. Her new book is Ghosts of
a Holy War, the nineteen twenty nine massacre in Palestine
that ignited the Arab Israeli conflict. The book came out yesterday,
she joins us from New York. Dana, I know the
book focuses on nineteen twenty nine, but I want to
go back even earlier than that and sort of understand
how the seeds for this were planted, maybe even during
(08:42):
the British occupation of the area earlier in the century.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, so we're talking about British Mandate Palestine. This was
a mandate given to the British Empire to rule over
what it had just conquered from the Ottoman Empire, which
had ruled that territory for more than four hundred years.
And before the Ottoman Empire conquered the region, it was
(09:13):
a province of a rotating cast of foreign powers, going
back to the Romans, the Greeks, the Crusaders. It was
actually the Romans who gave Palestine its name. It had
been known as the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom
of Judea, and when the Jews of Judea carried out
(09:35):
a rebellion against the Romans. They punished them by renaming
the land after the Israelites' ancient enemies, the Philistines.
Speaker 6 (09:45):
Well, and I guess that's what I'm wondering is you know,
you go back to, as we said, the early nineteen
hundreds and the role of colonialism the UK specifically, you know,
in establishing a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine,
which was again anst the wishes of the indigenous Arab population.
You do also wonder how that kind of set the
(10:06):
stage in addition to what you were talking about, which
led to the Hebron massacre, that there was more going
on that made for a very volatile environment between these
two populations.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Absolutely. Yeah, the conflict didn't just begin out of nowhere
in nineteen twenty nine. Of course, the tensions between Palestine's
Jewish minority and its Arab majority had been simmering for
years and had already claimed dozens of lives by nineteen
twenty nine. But the massacre and Hebron and the riots
that engulfed Palestine that week in August of nineteen twenty
(10:45):
nine really became the first mass casualty event of this
conflict and kind of set the formula for every eruption
of violence that we have seen since.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You lived in Israel for more than a decade. As
I mentioned a few minutes ago, and we've as we've
been speaking with our reporters on the ground there, they've
shared with us this feeling that people in Israel right
now do feel like that the conflict they are fighting
is one that is indeed existential. And I'm wondering if
(11:19):
you think, given what's going on there today, the actual
existence of Israel in the future is threatened.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Absolutely. I mean, I think that it really understanding that
really helps to explain the actions Israel has taken since
October seventh. I mean, you know, there's talk of disproportionality,
and we heard this from Biden today, but I think
if you are in Israel and you see your country
(11:50):
being attacked from seven fronts, and you see a world
that doesn't really understand that the only reason we're not
seeing mass casualties yesterday and today as a result of
Iran's ballistic missile attack is a result of Israel's defense systems.
I mean, you don't just have the Iron Dome intercepting
(12:13):
some of those rockets, but you also are many of
those rockets, I should say, but you also have the
government investing in bomb shelters for israelis something that I wish,
you know, other countries would do. If imagine if Gozan's
had bomb shelters or Lebanese civilians had bomb shelters that
could protect them from the terror groups that are embedding
(12:35):
themselves within civilian populations. And you know, Israel really is
fighting a war not just against and that the war
isn't really against the Palestinians, it's against Hamas, but it's
also against Hezbollah. And you know, like I said earlier,
we really should be looking at the names of these
organizations because they tell us everything. I mean, Hezbala's name
(12:57):
means the Party of God, Hamas's name is the Islamic
Resistance Movement in English. You know, so much of what
these organizations say themselves we're not hearing in the West.
And what they're saying is they desire to destroy the
state of Israel, and Israel israelis hear that, but I
think a lot of us here don't understand that.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
So in your thinking about the region and the way forward,
we assume we fingers cross that we get to a
better place at some point, although it's hard to see
right now, does a two state solution in some ways
help the situation, specifically in Israel and with the Palestinians.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So I do believe that a two state solution is
the only solution to this conflict. And just going back
to the history here, I began writing this book nearly
six years ago. You know, I didn't just pick up
and start writing this after October seventh. I was writing
about this massacre well before October seventh. And the reason
(14:07):
I did was because there was this family in Memphis,
Tennessee that I was introduced to that had found this
box of letters in their attic, containing hundreds of pages
of letters from their late uncle who was murdered in
the massacre in nineteen twenty nine. And his letters painted
this beautiful portrait of peaceful coexistence in Hebron that preceded
(14:29):
the massacre. And what really captured me and reading these
letters was that I had never known, and many people
didn't know or don't know, that Hebron was once a
beacon of coexistence in Palestine. And today, if you're familiar
with Hebron, it is the antithesis of peaceful coexistence, and
I think understanding how that happened really can tell us
(14:54):
how we can find a way out and work towards peace.
Because really, if you look the last century, a two
state solution has been on the table since at least
nineteen thirty seven, right and palas and leaders have rejected
every single two state solution since then. I mean, palestein
could have been independent and free for the first time
in history in nineteen forty seven had Palestinian leaders and
(15:17):
Arab leaders accepted that solution, and instead they declared war
on the unborn Jewish.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
State, and in the meantime many innocent lives have been
lost and continue to do. So you're Donna, thank you
so much. Appreciate getting some time with you. Your Dennis Schwartz,
journalist and author. New book is Ghosts of a Holy War,
the nineteen twenty nine massacre in Palestine that ignited the
Arab Israeli conflict. So we appreciate getting some time with her.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
On this Wednesday, this is Bloomberg Business Week inside from
the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted
business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news as
it happened This Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and
Tim st on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
It's Bloomberg BusinessWeek. I got some numbers for you, Carol Masser.
Love that one point six trillion dollars. It's not great, Okay. Now,
as of June of this year, that's the amount of
outstanding student loans that Americans have.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Okay, Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
We talk about this a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Some more numbers. About one and four adults in the
US under the age of forty havel a student loan debt.
Last year. The median amount of person with student debt
OWEDE was between twenty thousand and about twenty five thousand dollars.
This data all courtesy of the Pew Research Center, and
it seems low.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
Especially if you're taking out loans for every year, all right.
Also in the world of student loans, Monday mark the
end of the twelvemonth grace period from the Education Department
for student loan borrowers. The so called on ramp was
designed to make it easier for borrowers to start making
payments after the COVID induced three year pause of student
loan repayments. None of this is a surprise to our
next guest. He's doctor Billy Hensley. He's president and CEO
(16:51):
of the National Endowment for Financial Education. It's a nonprofit
that works too well really help make us all more
financially literate. He joins us right here in our Bloomberg
Interactor Broker studio. Welcome, Welcome, nice to have you here.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
I wish we were all financially literate. I feel like
this is something Tim and I have talked about for years.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
I feel like if you listen to our show or
watch our show AI as a kid, and you wouldn't
have these issues.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
Education is a tough one. Tell us about how bad
it is and what worries.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
You the most.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Well, outside of student loans themselves, kids are not getting
access to financial education, quality financial education. You know, there's
financial information, and then there's this rigorous sort of foundational
education that we all need. And every time I talk
about this work, someone says to me, I wish I
had had that.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
We've been saying I wish for years.
Speaker 6 (17:44):
I don't want to date myself, but I feel like
I've been talking it from the beginning of my career.
In business journalism, So why is it? Why do we
not consider it important? You know, we used to go
back years before me home economics was something people were
taught how to cook to so I had yeah, right,
And so I just wonder like, why don't we consider
(18:04):
this an important thing for our younger generation.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Well, there's a lot of topics fighting for shelf space
in the classroom, so so many hours in the day
we're always doing that. But to your point, I have
textbooks on my desk in Denver from nineteen twelve math
textbooks that have chapters on financial literacy. So it was
part of compulsory education at some point. But we're making headwind.
(18:27):
We eighty eight percent of Americans think this should be required.
Eighty percent of those same people wish that they had
been made to take the class. And so we're at
twenty six states now that have passed legislation just in
the last few years to require this for graduation. They're
not all fully implemented yet. Sadly, it takes years and
years before those things happen.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Why you tell me, I.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
Wish I knew Elon Musk is putting satellites in the
air going to get us on Mars, and he's created evs, and.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Like, why we don't know if he'll get us on Mars.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Okay, so maybe he will get us to Mars. But
why is it? Tell me, why is it too Yeah,
go ahead, you're rolling your eyes.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Well, it's a myriad of issues. Part of it is expertise,
getting teachers trained, getting them access to the right information
so that we can have very thorough covering of the subject.
The other is every one of us who come from
education think our subject is the most important, and so
(19:25):
we're all jockeying for time and space and what that
looks like. But there are states that are figuring this out.
You know, we're at twenty six now that have at
least a semester of personal finance education, and we're starting
to see some of those graduates come through now. And
I think too few people know the true measurable benefits
(19:45):
of this. Research shows that credit scores within five years
are fifty excuse me forty points higher than those were
it's not required, so that's a true value, lower utilization
of revolving debt, lower credit card delinquency rates. The list
is very long and better borrowing for.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Higher education, financial education, financial literacy are huge umbrella terms.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Right, give us.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Specifics on what you want taught in school. What do
people need to know in order to make good decisions
as adults.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Well to not overwhelm in Yeah, it is a mini series.
If you think about it, everything we do in our
life is touching some level of finance. But what the
basics here. It goes beyond budgeting, It goes beyond retirement,
it goes beyond emergency funds. This is about the necessity
(20:40):
to be the CFO of your financial life. What we
have found from international data is that in countries where
the retirement replacement rate, meaning like their version of social security,
is high, it's a higher percent of their earned income,
financial literacy tends to be lower across the board. And
if it's a lower rate, maybe twenty twenty twenty five
to thirty percent of their income is replaced, the financial
(21:03):
literacy is higher because we're putting on you to be
the CFO of your life, to navigate your retirement and
prepare for that. That holds true in every country, but
this one we don't. We don't have high either.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
We have not.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Invested the education.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Is it because of education?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Well, I don't think it's education alone. I think we
just don't talk about the subject enough. We need to
continue to demystify it. And we live in a bubble,
right because we think about this every day, but people
still sort of avoid this topic. Some of it comes
from shame, Some of it comes from you know, mistakes,
some of it comes from maybe.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Some of it comes from inability to Actually we talk
about this, right, we talk about income, wealth versus income.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
It's tough for some because.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
We went from a world of tensions, as you've talked about
quite a bit, to a world of self funded retirement.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
That's right, and that has happened largely in the last
forty years. Right at the time we were bottoming out
on the number of students who were getting financial education
or home economics or consumer science or whatever you know
it's called now, and you know, financial literacy as a
tool as a measurement tool is just getting into its
(22:09):
sophistication of research and how we do it well. For
many years, and I don't want to pick on our
economists friends too much, but for many years we were
thinking about everything in terms of financial literacy, from optimizing
decision making instead of human growth and development instead of
curriculum and instruction instead of these other disciplines that really
lean into how we learn when we should learn things.
(22:32):
And as we've gained the insight, the case for financial
education in schools has become much stronger. Hence going in
the last five years from nine states to twenty six
that now require it. So we're making headwind.
Speaker 6 (22:44):
All right, I just got about forty five seconds or
so left here, doctor Hedslam.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
I'm curious.
Speaker 6 (22:48):
So for families who might be listening or they pick
up our podcast later on, we've got kids, what's your
one piece of advice? If we can't necessarily wait for
our educational system to this, what should parents do or
individuals do well?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
A lot of this is started in the grassroots. Go
to the principle, go to the school board, make the
case for this work.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
But if you want, if you don't want to wait, well.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
What can we do at home?
Speaker 6 (23:12):
Yeah? Like, I think about kN academy that has taught
so many different kids about so many different subjects. Why
don't we partner with them to create some kind of
curriculum the kids can tap into right away.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
That's right, there are great resources out there. Let's begin
the conversation. Let's demystify the topic so it's a shared value.
And the more we do that, the more acceptable it's
going to be.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
But is it as easy as like get starting my
kids on allowance at a young age, understanding that if
you do work you will get paid.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That's exactly right. The applied knowledge, you know, you're applying
it in practice now. And that's the thing about money,
it's cumulative as you learn. The earlier you start this,
the more cumulative that that information will be, and the
stronger you'll you'll be in later in life.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
All Right, we're gonna leave it on that note. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
Bill Hensley, Doctor Bill Hensley, he's President and CEO of
the National Endowment for Finding Natural Education right here in studio.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
This is Bloomberg Business Week with krol Messer and Tim
Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Well.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
Our coverage the latest out of the Middle East continues
some recent headlines here.
Speaker 5 (00:18):
Today.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
President Biden said G seven nations are discussing sanctions against
Iran in response to the latest attack against Israel. Uran
fired about two hundred ballistic missiles at Israel on Tuesday,
a sharp but brief escalation between Middle Eastern adversaries that
threatened to trigger a fresh round of attacks, as Prime
Minister Benjamin Nettnyahuo vowed to retaliate, and.
Speaker 6 (00:36):
President Biden saying Israel shthold off from attacking Iran's nuclear
facilities in retaliation.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
That was something we got today.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
We got a really timely guest with a historical perspective
to a situation that has been centuries in the making.
Yardnia Schwartz is a journalist and author. Her new book
is Ghosts of a Holy War, the nineteen twenty nine
massacre in Palestine that ignited the Arab Israeli conflict, came
out just yesterday. He joins us from New York. Jardana
before we go back to nineteen twenty nine, which we're
(01:04):
going to get to. You're an expert on the region.
You're someone who spent more than a decade reporting from Israel.
You've studied the history of the region. Weigh in on
the events not just the last two days, but of
the last year.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
First, thank you so much for having me. The events
we're seeing today, in which there is already this broader
war against Israel by Iran and its proxies in the region,
really shows us that this is not a conflict about
land as it has been treated for decades. This is
(01:37):
a holy war, as I argue in my book, and
it needs to be looked at as such. And we
see that very clearly now, in which this war is
not just between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between Iran
and its proxies in Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
For the last year.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
This didn't just start as you said, you know, yes
yesterday or last week. It's been going on and as
I argue in my book, began one century ago with
a massacre and what was then British mandate Palestine.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Well, take us.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
Back to nineteen twenty nine, because it does feel like
we need to understand the history, and I feel like
we have all we continue to be kind of on
a history lesson for those of us not either from
the region, born in the region, lived in the region,
or have some personal impact from it. You know, we're
constantly kind of studying to understand the complicated nature. Somebody
(02:33):
said very simplistically to me, well, it's kind of like
gang wars to some extent because you have so many
different groups.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
How do you see it?
Speaker 6 (02:38):
And how does going back to nineteen twenty nine take
us back there in terms of what happened and how
that helps us maybe understand a little bit better of
where we are today.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
So, so many people begin their conversations around the origins
of this war with years like nineteen sixty seven or
nineteen forty eight, but this conflict began long before that,
actually two decades before. We see the emerging of the
driving forces behind this conflict today, and those forces our religion,
(03:13):
as I said before, but also disinformation, and it was
a campaign of disinformation that led to the horrific massacre
of one of the world's most ancient Jewish communities in
Hebron in what was then British Mandate Palestine in nineteen
twenty nine, and my book elucidates and gripping detail the
parallels between that massacre one century ago and the massacre
(03:37):
of October seventh.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Why do you think so many modern conversations about the
history of the region, at least the modern history, start
in nineteen forty eight and don't go back to nineteen
twenty nine. Why do you think this part of history
has been I don't know if I want to say forgotten.
I have to tell you be honest with you, though
I had no idea about it until we got this book.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, that's an excellent question, and I think it comes
down to people not really being able to wrap their
heads around what is really complicated and a conflict that
has such a long history, and so they try to
look at it in the simplest way possible. And it
makes sense then to begin that story in nineteen forty eight,
(04:17):
But that's like beginning a story in the middle, or
like starting a show at episode twenty five rather than
episode one. And episode one was this massacre in nineteen
twenty nine that really set the stage with the conflict,
because you see the emergence of what has become a
very prominent lie that is told around alak samosque it
(04:42):
is the third holiest site in Islam, and it sits
upon the ruins of the ancient Jewish temples in Jerusalem,
and that the Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism.
And that kind of tells you why religion is such
a big play, such a big role in this conflict.
But the room that is still told by Muslim leaders
(05:03):
today is that the Jews of what was then Palestine
were planning to conquer al Alczamosk. That was the lie
that led to the massacre of nineteen twenty nine, and
that lie continues to be told today by groups like
Hamas or the Iitola of Iran Hezballah. And you can
(05:24):
just look at the name that Hamas gave to its
operation on October seventh. It was called Alaksa flood. Because
this lie about what the Jews of Palestine in nineteen
twenty nine or today Israel, this lie that they're trying
to conquer al Azamosk to rebuild the ancient Jewish temple
is such a powerful force, a galvanizing force in the region,
(05:48):
and corrupt leaders like the leader of Palestinian Muslims under
British rule in nineteen twenty nine, have managed to distract
criticism of corruption, nepotism is appropriation of funds. For the
last century, They've been able to distract their people from
their own failures by holding on to this lie that
(06:08):
is so powerful.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
So so then I guess I'm trying to figure out
where we go from here, because you know, when you
say we're seeing parallels of nineteen twenty nine and what
happened roughly one year ago with the Hamas attack on Israel,
is it happening again because of this?
Speaker 5 (06:31):
You know, the lies? You know, like what why? How
do we break it?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Then?
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Like, if we know their lies, how do we break it?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
That's such a great question. I'm so glad you're asking that,
because it's actually much bigger than that, because that's just
one lie that has been told. But also after the
massacre of nineteen twenty nine and after the master of
October seventh, we see this widespread denial of the atrocities
that were committed against innocent men, women, children, babies. The
(07:05):
parallels between the atrocities committed one century ago and the
atrocities committed on October seventh were so hauntingly similar, and
so were the denials that immediately followed that massacre. And
at the same time as denial, there was also victim blaming.
You know, our bleeders in nineteen twenty nine said there
were no atrocities, but a day later said, oh, the
(07:27):
atrocities were committed by Jews in Hebron. And we saw
the same thing after October seventh, you know, people denying
that those atrocities took place, that women were raped, and
yet also blaming Israel for the massacre or blaming the
victims for what happened to them. And I think that
really bringing peace this region has so much to do
(07:51):
with ending that disinformation, ending this cycle of disinformation that
leads to more massacres. I mean, you asked about nineteen
forty eight earlier. That's another example of denial. I mean
so many, so many people speak about nineteen forty eight,
speak about the expulsion and the you know, what happened
to Palestinians in nineteen forty eight, but they don't speak
(08:13):
about the war that was waged against the unborn Jewish
state that led to their expulsion.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
I want to get right back to our guest Yardana Schwartz,
a journalist and author. Her new book is Ghosts of
a Holy War, the nineteen twenty nine massacre in Palestine
that ignited the Arab Israeli conflict. The book came out yesterday,
she joins us from New York. Dana, I know the
book focuses on nineteen twenty nine, but I want to
go back even earlier than that and sort of understand
how the seeds for this were planted, maybe even during
(08:42):
the British occupation of the area earlier in the century.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, so we're talking about British Mandate Palestine. This was
a mandate given to the British Empire to rule over
what it had just conquered from the Ottoman Empire, which
had ruled that territory for more than four hundred years.
And before the Ottoman Empire conquered the region, it was
(09:13):
a province of a rotating cast of foreign powers, going
back to the Romans, the Greeks, the Crusaders. It was
actually the Romans who gave Palestine its name. It had
been known as the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom
of Judea, and when the Jews of Judea carried out
(09:35):
a rebellion against the Romans. They punished them by renaming
the land after the Israelites' ancient enemies, the Philistines.
Speaker 6 (09:45):
Well, and I guess that's what I'm wondering is you know,
you go back to, as we said, the early nineteen
hundreds and the role of colonialism the UK specifically, you know,
in establishing a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine,
which was again anst the wishes of the indigenous Arab population.
You do also wonder how that kind of set the
(10:06):
stage in addition to what you were talking about, which
led to the Hebron massacre, that there was more going
on that made for a very volatile environment between these
two populations.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Absolutely. Yeah, the conflict didn't just begin out of nowhere
in nineteen twenty nine. Of course, the tensions between Palestine's
Jewish minority and its Arab majority had been simmering for
years and had already claimed dozens of lives by nineteen
twenty nine. But the massacre and Hebron and the riots
that engulfed Palestine that week in August of nineteen twenty
(10:45):
nine really became the first mass casualty event of this
conflict and kind of set the formula for every eruption
of violence that we have seen since.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You lived in Israel for more than a decade. As
I mentioned a few minutes ago, and we've as we've
been speaking with our reporters on the ground there, they've
shared with us this feeling that people in Israel right
now do feel like that the conflict they are fighting
is one that is indeed existential. And I'm wondering if
(11:19):
you think, given what's going on there today, the actual
existence of Israel in the future is threatened.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Absolutely. I mean, I think that it really understanding that
really helps to explain the actions Israel has taken since
October seventh. I mean, you know, there's talk of disproportionality,
and we heard this from Biden today, but I think
if you are in Israel and you see your country
(11:50):
being attacked from seven fronts, and you see a world
that doesn't really understand that the only reason we're not
seeing mass casualties yesterday and today as a result of
Iran's ballistic missile attack is a result of Israel's defense systems.
I mean, you don't just have the Iron Dome intercepting
(12:13):
some of those rockets, but you also are many of
those rockets, I should say, but you also have the
government investing in bomb shelters for israelis something that I wish,
you know, other countries would do. If imagine if Gozan's
had bomb shelters or Lebanese civilians had bomb shelters that
could protect them from the terror groups that are embedding
(12:35):
themselves within civilian populations. And you know, Israel really is
fighting a war not just against and that the war
isn't really against the Palestinians, it's against Hamas, but it's
also against Hezbollah. And you know, like I said earlier,
we really should be looking at the names of these
organizations because they tell us everything. I mean, Hezbala's name
(12:57):
means the Party of God, Hamas's name is the Islamic
Resistance Movement in English. You know, so much of what
these organizations say themselves we're not hearing in the West.
And what they're saying is they desire to destroy the
state of Israel, and Israel israelis hear that, but I
think a lot of us here don't understand that.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
So in your thinking about the region and the way forward,
we assume we fingers cross that we get to a
better place at some point, although it's hard to see
right now, does a two state solution in some ways
help the situation, specifically in Israel and with the Palestinians.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So I do believe that a two state solution is
the only solution to this conflict. And just going back
to the history here, I began writing this book nearly
six years ago. You know, I didn't just pick up
and start writing this after October seventh. I was writing
about this massacre well before October seventh. And the reason
(14:07):
I did was because there was this family in Memphis,
Tennessee that I was introduced to that had found this
box of letters in their attic, containing hundreds of pages
of letters from their late uncle who was murdered in
the massacre in nineteen twenty nine. And his letters painted
this beautiful portrait of peaceful coexistence in Hebron that preceded
(14:29):
the massacre. And what really captured me and reading these
letters was that I had never known, and many people
didn't know or don't know, that Hebron was once a
beacon of coexistence in Palestine. And today, if you're familiar
with Hebron, it is the antithesis of peaceful coexistence, and
I think understanding how that happened really can tell us
(14:54):
how we can find a way out and work towards peace.
Because really, if you look the last century, a two
state solution has been on the table since at least
nineteen thirty seven, right and palas and leaders have rejected
every single two state solution since then. I mean, palestein
could have been independent and free for the first time
in history in nineteen forty seven had Palestinian leaders and
(15:17):
Arab leaders accepted that solution, and instead they declared war
on the unborn Jewish.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
State, and in the meantime many innocent lives have been
lost and continue to do. So you're Donna, thank you
so much. Appreciate getting some time with you. Your Dennis Schwartz,
journalist and author. New book is Ghosts of a Holy War,
the nineteen twenty nine massacre in Palestine that ignited the
Arab Israeli conflict. So we appreciate getting some time with her.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
On this Wednesday, this is Bloomberg Business Week inside from
the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted
business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news as
it happened This Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and
Tim st on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
It's Bloomberg BusinessWeek. I got some numbers for you, Carol Masser.
Love that one point six trillion dollars. It's not great, Okay. Now,
as of June of this year, that's the amount of
outstanding student loans that Americans have.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Okay, Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
We talk about this a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Some more numbers. About one and four adults in the
US under the age of forty havel a student loan debt.
Last year. The median amount of person with student debt
OWEDE was between twenty thousand and about twenty five thousand dollars.
This data all courtesy of the Pew Research Center, and
it seems low.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
Especially if you're taking out loans for every year, all right.
Also in the world of student loans, Monday mark the
end of the twelvemonth grace period from the Education Department
for student loan borrowers. The so called on ramp was
designed to make it easier for borrowers to start making
payments after the COVID induced three year pause of student
loan repayments. None of this is a surprise to our
next guest. He's doctor Billy Hensley. He's president and CEO
(16:51):
of the National Endowment for Financial Education. It's a nonprofit
that works too well really help make us all more
financially literate. He joins us right here in our Bloomberg
Interactor Broker studio. Welcome, Welcome, nice to have you here.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
I wish we were all financially literate. I feel like
this is something Tim and I have talked about for years.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
I feel like if you listen to our show or
watch our show AI as a kid, and you wouldn't
have these issues.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
Education is a tough one. Tell us about how bad
it is and what worries.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
You the most.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Well, outside of student loans themselves, kids are not getting
access to financial education, quality financial education. You know, there's
financial information, and then there's this rigorous sort of foundational
education that we all need. And every time I talk
about this work, someone says to me, I wish I
had had that.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
We've been saying I wish for years.
Speaker 6 (17:44):
I don't want to date myself, but I feel like
I've been talking it from the beginning of my career.
In business journalism, So why is it? Why do we
not consider it important? You know, we used to go
back years before me home economics was something people were
taught how to cook to so I had yeah, right,
And so I just wonder like, why don't we consider
(18:04):
this an important thing for our younger generation.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Well, there's a lot of topics fighting for shelf space
in the classroom, so so many hours in the day
we're always doing that. But to your point, I have
textbooks on my desk in Denver from nineteen twelve math
textbooks that have chapters on financial literacy. So it was
part of compulsory education at some point. But we're making headwind.
(18:27):
We eighty eight percent of Americans think this should be required.
Eighty percent of those same people wish that they had
been made to take the class. And so we're at
twenty six states now that have passed legislation just in
the last few years to require this for graduation. They're
not all fully implemented yet. Sadly, it takes years and
years before those things happen.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Why you tell me, I.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
Wish I knew Elon Musk is putting satellites in the
air going to get us on Mars, and he's created evs, and.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Like, why we don't know if he'll get us on Mars.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Okay, so maybe he will get us to Mars. But
why is it? Tell me, why is it too Yeah,
go ahead, you're rolling your eyes.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Well, it's a myriad of issues. Part of it is expertise,
getting teachers trained, getting them access to the right information
so that we can have very thorough covering of the subject.
The other is every one of us who come from
education think our subject is the most important, and so
(19:25):
we're all jockeying for time and space and what that
looks like. But there are states that are figuring this out.
You know, we're at twenty six now that have at
least a semester of personal finance education, and we're starting
to see some of those graduates come through now. And
I think too few people know the true measurable benefits
(19:45):
of this. Research shows that credit scores within five years
are fifty excuse me forty points higher than those were
it's not required, so that's a true value, lower utilization
of revolving debt, lower credit card delinquency rates. The list
is very long and better borrowing for.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Higher education, financial education, financial literacy are huge umbrella terms.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Right, give us.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Specifics on what you want taught in school. What do
people need to know in order to make good decisions
as adults.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Well to not overwhelm in Yeah, it is a mini series.
If you think about it, everything we do in our
life is touching some level of finance. But what the
basics here. It goes beyond budgeting, It goes beyond retirement,
it goes beyond emergency funds. This is about the necessity
(20:40):
to be the CFO of your financial life. What we
have found from international data is that in countries where
the retirement replacement rate, meaning like their version of social security,
is high, it's a higher percent of their earned income,
financial literacy tends to be lower across the board. And
if it's a lower rate, maybe twenty twenty twenty five
to thirty percent of their income is replaced, the financial
(21:03):
literacy is higher because we're putting on you to be
the CFO of your life, to navigate your retirement and
prepare for that. That holds true in every country, but
this one we don't. We don't have high either.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
We have not.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Invested the education.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Is it because of education?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Well, I don't think it's education alone. I think we
just don't talk about the subject enough. We need to
continue to demystify it. And we live in a bubble,
right because we think about this every day, but people
still sort of avoid this topic. Some of it comes
from shame, Some of it comes from you know, mistakes,
some of it comes from maybe.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Some of it comes from inability to Actually we talk
about this, right, we talk about income, wealth versus income.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
It's tough for some because.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
We went from a world of tensions, as you've talked about
quite a bit, to a world of self funded retirement.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
That's right, and that has happened largely in the last
forty years. Right at the time we were bottoming out
on the number of students who were getting financial education
or home economics or consumer science or whatever you know
it's called now, and you know, financial literacy as a
tool as a measurement tool is just getting into its
(22:09):
sophistication of research and how we do it well. For
many years, and I don't want to pick on our
economists friends too much, but for many years we were
thinking about everything in terms of financial literacy, from optimizing
decision making instead of human growth and development instead of
curriculum and instruction instead of these other disciplines that really
lean into how we learn when we should learn things.
(22:32):
And as we've gained the insight, the case for financial
education in schools has become much stronger. Hence going in
the last five years from nine states to twenty six
that now require it. So we're making headwind.
Speaker 6 (22:44):
All right, I just got about forty five seconds or
so left here, doctor Hedslam.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
I'm curious.
Speaker 6 (22:48):
So for families who might be listening or they pick
up our podcast later on, we've got kids, what's your
one piece of advice? If we can't necessarily wait for
our educational system to this, what should parents do or
individuals do well?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
A lot of this is started in the grassroots. Go
to the principle, go to the school board, make the
case for this work.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
But if you want, if you don't want to wait, well.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
What can we do at home?
Speaker 6 (23:12):
Yeah? Like, I think about kN academy that has taught
so many different kids about so many different subjects. Why
don't we partner with them to create some kind of
curriculum the kids can tap into right away.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
That's right, there are great resources out there. Let's begin
the conversation. Let's demystify the topic so it's a shared value.
And the more we do that, the more acceptable it's
going to be.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
But is it as easy as like get starting my
kids on allowance at a young age, understanding that if
you do work you will get paid.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That's exactly right. The applied knowledge, you know, you're applying
it in practice now. And that's the thing about money,
it's cumulative as you learn. The earlier you start this,
the more cumulative that that information will be, and the
stronger you'll you'll be in later in life.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
All Right, we're gonna leave it on that note. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
Bill Hensley, Doctor Bill Hensley, he's President and CEO of
the National Endowment for Finding Natural Education right here in studio.
Hosts And Creators
Tim Stenovec
Carol Massar
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