March 1, 2023 • 14 mins
The Bank of England and the UK Treasury are moving forward with a plan to launch a digital currency. It’s being called the CBDC, or Central Bank Digital Currency, dubbed (or nicknamed) 'Britcoin.'
The action is part of a global effort to stay ahead of various new currency options and prepare for a future in which consumers adopt card payments backed by companies instead of by governments. But, some critics are calling it a "solution in search of a problem", particularly in light of the country's already-strong fintech industry.
Senior editor Philip Lagerkranser and reporter Emily Nicolle discuss the implications.
Subscribe to the Bloomberg Crypto Newsletter at https://bloom.bg/cryptonewsletter
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Hood podcast,
and I'm Philip Blogger Cranstar, Senior editor for Crypto at
Bloomberg News. In today for Stacy Marie Ishmael. It is Wednesday,
March the first. The Bank of England and the UK
(00:27):
Treasury are moving forward with a plan to launch a
digital currency. It's being called a CBDC, which is short
for Central Bank Digital Currency and afflete nicknamed Britcoin, but
some critics are calling it a solution in search of
a problem, particularly given the strength of the UK's fintech industry.
(00:50):
Here today to join me to talk about this is
Bloomberg reporter Emmelinicole. Emily, It's nice to finally be here
with you in the studio today. How are you? I'm good, Thanks,
How are you? Are you enjoying London? I am enjoying
London very much and rainy for your face, it's very
(01:12):
nice and rainy. I'm told that the weather was beautiful yesterday.
Today with my arrival, it is clearly changed. Perfect for
our little conversation we're about to have absolutely and we're
gonna be talking about Britcoin today. So let's just delve
straight into it. Chawe, can you briefly explain to us
what a CBDC is. So, a central bank digital currency
(01:35):
is a form of government issued money that instead of
being on a ledger in the Bank of England and
on commercial banks own leasures, it's also backed on blockchain,
so it's verifiable there is a token that transfers between
this and that. At the minute, it's all a little
bit more up in the air than that. Like, you know,
(01:55):
if you get money sent to you in your bank
account as a retail user, it looks like you had
some numbers in one bank that went to some numbers
and other banks. That's actually not quite how it works
under the hood. But with CBDCs is a bit more
of a blockchain transfer involved. And at a very basic level,
what would be I mean, how would we compare to
something like a debit card for everyday use, Probably is
(02:18):
no different, I mean most of us, at least in
the UK anyway, it's very like digital payments forward, and
so spending on your debit card or spending a CBDC
is is supposed to look and feel pretty much identical.
The way that it's different and the reason why it's
being developed is because at the minute, there are obviously
people in crypto that are thinking of ways that they
can use currency more fluidly, and so a CBDC, it
(02:41):
is hoped, is a way that they can almost compete
with the likes of Tether or Circle all these other
private staple coins while having it still be government overseen
bank money. So basically we've established it lives on a blockchain,
but it's not really crypto. I mean, it's it's very
distinct from what we were consider a crypto token. Yeah,
(03:02):
it's not decentralized really in any way. It's still very
much overseen by government. It's not anonymous either, so everybody
knows who you are and where you're sending and how
much you're sending it to. The only difference is that
it will be I guess a little bit faster. Potentially,
it may be more factable in terms of where you
can send it and who you can send it to,
because if while it's a compatible once they're developed, then
(03:24):
that'll be a little bit easier than at the minute,
where for example, you have to get someone's bank account
details and have it all verified and all that kind
of stuff. So it may be a solution to some
of those issues. But as I said before, we're in
a digital economy in the UK already, so a CBDC
is something that is probably a little bit more helpful
for those in less developed economies where the banking system
(03:45):
is a little bit less advanced. This is the main
objection here. You look at the former Bank of indiand
Governor Irvin King calling it a solution in search of
a problem, but simply creating a central bank digital currency.
On the face of it, it's not obvious that it
brings about the sort of transformation people often assume it
(04:06):
must lead to. What do they mean when they say that, like,
and this is not just We should be clear that
this is not just in Britain, that this debate is
going on. I mean, it's happening everywhere. But what is
the point of view? How do you describe the point
of view that this is a solution in search of
a problem. So in the UK we have something called
(04:28):
Real Time Growth Settlements RTGs. It's a very big system
that the Bank has been working on for many many
years and is actually currently in the process of quite
of an expensive upgrade to that. And that's what enables
things to payments to transfer pretty much immediately, Like if
I were to send you money via bank transfer right
now from UK bank to UK bank. It's almost instant.
(04:48):
In other countries, even in the US, where you'd say
the economy is pretty advanced, the banking system doesn't quite
match up and it can still take several days. But
in the UK anyway, we pretty much have that. And
that's why others think of this as a solution and
such of a problem, because that issue of instant payment
is already solved somewhat. The reason why a CBDC may
be useful in the eyes of skeptics because they see
(05:10):
the bankers trying to compete with the world of crypto
not get left behind. If other countries are also developing CBDCs,
you know, they wonder if there's a digital yeah, or
if there's a digital euro, perhaps a digital pound is
required in order for us to be able to achieve
proper conversion between those different economies. And the other thing is,
as you already said, we have the E dollar. Well
(05:33):
very early stages have talked about that. It's actually much
further back than our so we're a bit more advanced
on the yes exactly, we have the E one would
be one that's very far ahead the NIRA in Nigeria,
and we're seeing central banks around the world starting to
tinker with these kinds of experiments. What is it? Is
(05:53):
there anything about britcoin that stands out here? Which class
of CBDCs does it belong to? So what we've been
talking about over the last few weeks is mainly the
proposals for a retail CBDC, so that's one to be
used by U and me. There is also another conversation
going on for a wholesale CBDC that would be a
digital currency that would enable banks to transfer between each other,
(06:15):
so it would help settle larger amounts of capsule between
you know, JP Morgan and Gobin Sacks or Santander an
HSBC and make that side of the system a little
bit faster. There's more of an argument for a wholesale CBDC.
Even the Bank em England Governor Andrew Bailey has said,
you know, a whole sale CBDC has quite a few
many uses and might actually be something that could really
(06:37):
help improve the banking system in this country. But for
a resale one, there's there's a little bit more of
a limited use case. You know, people could could expect
to be paid in a UK CBDC, they could want
to pay their mortgage in it. But it really, at
least in terms of what's're already out there, it's pretty
similar to what we're used to and in some ways
that's kind of important, right It needs to be similar
(06:57):
because if the learning curve is too steep, then people
want to use it at all. And we'll be right
back for more with Bloomberg Crypto reporter Emmaly Nicol. And
then there's also the proposal from the Bank am Inland
(07:19):
to basically have a limit of how much you can hold.
I believe it was ten thousand to twenty thousand pounds
most Yes, between those two, what is that intended to
cannot solve for? Is this also into you know, I
imagine it has to do with the fear of sucking
money out of the deposit system. What's the background of that? Yeah,
(07:42):
I think initially, while a CBDC is still in its infancy,
you wouldn't want to be able to put everything into it.
It still needs to be tested, it still needs to
be trialed to make sure that it works out in
the open, and so that initial limit is something that
helps banks to kind of maintain a bit of an
understanding of exactly how a CBDC works, see how people
are using it for several years before they then let
(08:04):
it run wild and loose. One of the big concerns
with digital currencies is always the idea of people not
being able to track what it's being used for, money laundering,
a list of finance. A UK CBDC should be able
to counteract all of those things because they're not going
to let anybody be private while they're using it. So
ideally it should be the same as if you put
money in a bank account, you're still going to have
to tell the bank who you are. But there is
(08:25):
obviously the concern that if a CBDC becomes something that
is interchangeable with other digital currencies around the world, is
interchangeable perhaps even with stable coins one day, that could
lead to a Daisy chain of finance where then eventually
you're not able to tell who somebody is. And there
is there a debate in the UK about privacy when
(08:46):
it comes to the development of cb and that the
potential launch or bridcoin for sure, that is actually one
of the biggest roadblocks to it, so the UK is
not one to ever give up their individual privacy if
they if they're going to avoid it. We had a
legislative attempt a few years ago to set up a
national Register of Identity for us all to have ID cards,
(09:08):
something that's pretty common in some other countries but it's
not a thing here and there was a very large
public outcright to that. It didn't make it through our
houses of Parliament because an is basically people didn't want
the government having a register of who everybody is and
where they live, and so with a CBDC that was
one of the biggest concerns, so that we were giving
(09:30):
a state institution, the Bank of England, the right to
a repository of information about who everybody is, where they live,
how much money they have. And that's one of the
reasons why the commercial banks will be involved in this
process because it keeps the Bank of England out of that.
It doesn't let them see you know who you are.
Everything is partially anonymized in that sense. The banks will know,
but the Bank of England won't. If you look at
(09:51):
the various levels of pushback from ranging from you know,
looking at privacy, which to some extent, as you say,
is being addressed, but also this idea that it's a
solution in such of a a problem. As we talked about,
what's the main marketing pitch, what's the boees and the
government's pitch behind doing this. What are they trying to
sell it on right now? Is it convenience? Is it
(10:13):
a mix of different things? There's an element of the
convenient side, right. They think that if everybody is currently
finding stable coins nice and convenient, then they should find
a digital pattern convenient too. There's a little bit of
a chicken before the egg though with this right, stable
coins still aren't that big. They're definitely not being used
for everyday payments at present. The idea is that if
crypto continues to grow at the level it is, and
(10:34):
that is a possible future, that we will use stable
coins for payments one day. And this is the Bank
of eng Them wanting to say we're not going to
get left behind with that. Even this, We started talking
about UKCBDC several years ago and we weren't expected to
even see anything like a CBDC in our hands to
be used for at least the second half of this decade.
And it's interesting that you mentioned stable coins, because you'd
(10:55):
be hard pressed to find a central banker these days
who loves stable coins, wouldn't you. I mean, giving what's
happened the last year or so, the regular reaction that
we've seen in the US. What is the regulatory view
on stable coins right how would you describe it right now? Negative?
Right now? Several big regulators, global bodies to national bodies
(11:18):
alike have all said that no current stable coin it
meets any of the existing standards that are out there
a form of digital money, they would not be able
to meet the parameters of emoney regimes in the UK,
which is the thing they will have to meet in
a few years time when that becomes law. And that
is a big problem for stable coin issuers because if
the pitch is that they want to become basically a
(11:38):
digital pound, but without the Bank of England, they're going
to need to meet these rules. Governments are pretty quickly
trying to put regimes in place to put parameters around
how stable coins are you used, how even the wallets
are able to be used. Those who would store them
would need to be registered with regulators too, and so
a CBDC is essentially trying to compete with those in
a way that will be regulated, will be safe to
(11:59):
some extent. Safe assending is and would basically get ahead
of stable coins before they can get in there first.
So work is proceeding, we're moving ahead, but what does
the timetable look right now? Like it's several years at least.
I don't know if we have a specific date really,
but it's definitely not imminent. I mean we're still at
the stages where we're having to engage with various parties
(12:21):
to decide exactly how each thing would look. This is
this consultation that's come out from the Bank of England
in twenty twenty three is kind of the first real
framework that we've had from them in terms of what
exactly this might look like, things the specifics of stuff
like you know, twenty thousand pound limits. But there are
still engagement forums happening every so often with different parties
(12:42):
from the banking sectors to finance sectors, technology sectors to
inform the Bank of Bing's work on that we haven't
yet decided. For example, if the Bank and will be
building its own blockchain to make this all happen on
if it will license that. There are banks out there
that have already developed into bank assesslement blockchains like JP Morgan.
So those are all options. So in some stable coins
are probably somewhere in our future. We don't quite know when,
(13:05):
and we don't quite know yet how they will look,
taste and fail. Yeah, but the government's a certainly worried,
and that's why we're building a chout. Thank you, Emony. Thanks.
That was Bloomberg reporter Emily Hall. You can find more
of her reporting on the Bloomberg terminal and on Bloomberg
dot com. For more, be sure to check out our
(13:26):
twice weekly newsletter, Bloomberg Crypto. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a
daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions or suggestions for
(13:49):
the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising
producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergelina. Our senior producer
is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Farouk and Sharon Barrero.
Our associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them
Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron.
(14:13):
I'm Stacy Mariaschmaal. We'll be back tomorrow.
This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Hood podcast,
and I'm Philip Blogger Cranstar, Senior editor for Crypto at
Bloomberg News. In today for Stacy Marie Ishmael. It is Wednesday,
March the first. The Bank of England and the UK
(00:27):
Treasury are moving forward with a plan to launch a
digital currency. It's being called a CBDC, which is short
for Central Bank Digital Currency and afflete nicknamed Britcoin, but
some critics are calling it a solution in search of
a problem, particularly given the strength of the UK's fintech industry.
(00:50):
Here today to join me to talk about this is
Bloomberg reporter Emmelinicole. Emily, It's nice to finally be here
with you in the studio today. How are you? I'm good, Thanks,
How are you? Are you enjoying London? I am enjoying
London very much and rainy for your face, it's very
(01:12):
nice and rainy. I'm told that the weather was beautiful yesterday.
Today with my arrival, it is clearly changed. Perfect for
our little conversation we're about to have absolutely and we're
gonna be talking about Britcoin today. So let's just delve
straight into it. Chawe, can you briefly explain to us
what a CBDC is. So, a central bank digital currency
(01:35):
is a form of government issued money that instead of
being on a ledger in the Bank of England and
on commercial banks own leasures, it's also backed on blockchain,
so it's verifiable there is a token that transfers between
this and that. At the minute, it's all a little
bit more up in the air than that. Like, you know,
(01:55):
if you get money sent to you in your bank
account as a retail user, it looks like you had
some numbers in one bank that went to some numbers
and other banks. That's actually not quite how it works
under the hood. But with CBDCs is a bit more
of a blockchain transfer involved. And at a very basic level,
what would be I mean, how would we compare to
something like a debit card for everyday use, Probably is
(02:18):
no different, I mean most of us, at least in
the UK anyway, it's very like digital payments forward, and
so spending on your debit card or spending a CBDC
is is supposed to look and feel pretty much identical.
The way that it's different and the reason why it's
being developed is because at the minute, there are obviously
people in crypto that are thinking of ways that they
can use currency more fluidly, and so a CBDC, it
(02:41):
is hoped, is a way that they can almost compete
with the likes of Tether or Circle all these other
private staple coins while having it still be government overseen
bank money. So basically we've established it lives on a blockchain,
but it's not really crypto. I mean, it's it's very
distinct from what we were consider a crypto token. Yeah,
(03:02):
it's not decentralized really in any way. It's still very
much overseen by government. It's not anonymous either, so everybody
knows who you are and where you're sending and how
much you're sending it to. The only difference is that
it will be I guess a little bit faster. Potentially,
it may be more factable in terms of where you
can send it and who you can send it to,
because if while it's a compatible once they're developed, then
(03:24):
that'll be a little bit easier than at the minute,
where for example, you have to get someone's bank account
details and have it all verified and all that kind
of stuff. So it may be a solution to some
of those issues. But as I said before, we're in
a digital economy in the UK already, so a CBDC
is something that is probably a little bit more helpful
for those in less developed economies where the banking system
(03:45):
is a little bit less advanced. This is the main
objection here. You look at the former Bank of indiand
Governor Irvin King calling it a solution in search of
a problem, but simply creating a central bank digital currency.
On the face of it, it's not obvious that it
brings about the sort of transformation people often assume it
(04:06):
must lead to. What do they mean when they say that, like,
and this is not just We should be clear that
this is not just in Britain, that this debate is
going on. I mean, it's happening everywhere. But what is
the point of view? How do you describe the point
of view that this is a solution in search of
a problem. So in the UK we have something called
(04:28):
Real Time Growth Settlements RTGs. It's a very big system
that the Bank has been working on for many many
years and is actually currently in the process of quite
of an expensive upgrade to that. And that's what enables
things to payments to transfer pretty much immediately, Like if
I were to send you money via bank transfer right
now from UK bank to UK bank. It's almost instant.
(04:48):
In other countries, even in the US, where you'd say
the economy is pretty advanced, the banking system doesn't quite
match up and it can still take several days. But
in the UK anyway, we pretty much have that. And
that's why others think of this as a solution and
such of a problem, because that issue of instant payment
is already solved somewhat. The reason why a CBDC may
be useful in the eyes of skeptics because they see
(05:10):
the bankers trying to compete with the world of crypto
not get left behind. If other countries are also developing CBDCs,
you know, they wonder if there's a digital yeah, or
if there's a digital euro, perhaps a digital pound is
required in order for us to be able to achieve
proper conversion between those different economies. And the other thing is,
as you already said, we have the E dollar. Well
(05:33):
very early stages have talked about that. It's actually much
further back than our so we're a bit more advanced
on the yes exactly, we have the E one would
be one that's very far ahead the NIRA in Nigeria,
and we're seeing central banks around the world starting to
tinker with these kinds of experiments. What is it? Is
(05:53):
there anything about britcoin that stands out here? Which class
of CBDCs does it belong to? So what we've been
talking about over the last few weeks is mainly the
proposals for a retail CBDC, so that's one to be
used by U and me. There is also another conversation
going on for a wholesale CBDC that would be a
digital currency that would enable banks to transfer between each other,
(06:15):
so it would help settle larger amounts of capsule between
you know, JP Morgan and Gobin Sacks or Santander an
HSBC and make that side of the system a little
bit faster. There's more of an argument for a wholesale CBDC.
Even the Bank em England Governor Andrew Bailey has said,
you know, a whole sale CBDC has quite a few
many uses and might actually be something that could really
(06:37):
help improve the banking system in this country. But for
a resale one, there's there's a little bit more of
a limited use case. You know, people could could expect
to be paid in a UK CBDC, they could want
to pay their mortgage in it. But it really, at
least in terms of what's're already out there, it's pretty
similar to what we're used to and in some ways
that's kind of important, right It needs to be similar
(06:57):
because if the learning curve is too steep, then people
want to use it at all. And we'll be right
back for more with Bloomberg Crypto reporter Emmaly Nicol. And
then there's also the proposal from the Bank am Inland
(07:19):
to basically have a limit of how much you can hold.
I believe it was ten thousand to twenty thousand pounds
most Yes, between those two, what is that intended to
cannot solve for? Is this also into you know, I
imagine it has to do with the fear of sucking
money out of the deposit system. What's the background of that? Yeah,
(07:42):
I think initially, while a CBDC is still in its infancy,
you wouldn't want to be able to put everything into it.
It still needs to be tested, it still needs to
be trialed to make sure that it works out in
the open, and so that initial limit is something that
helps banks to kind of maintain a bit of an
understanding of exactly how a CBDC works, see how people
are using it for several years before they then let
(08:04):
it run wild and loose. One of the big concerns
with digital currencies is always the idea of people not
being able to track what it's being used for, money laundering,
a list of finance. A UK CBDC should be able
to counteract all of those things because they're not going
to let anybody be private while they're using it. So
ideally it should be the same as if you put
money in a bank account, you're still going to have
to tell the bank who you are. But there is
(08:25):
obviously the concern that if a CBDC becomes something that
is interchangeable with other digital currencies around the world, is
interchangeable perhaps even with stable coins one day, that could
lead to a Daisy chain of finance where then eventually
you're not able to tell who somebody is. And there
is there a debate in the UK about privacy when
(08:46):
it comes to the development of cb and that the
potential launch or bridcoin for sure, that is actually one
of the biggest roadblocks to it, so the UK is
not one to ever give up their individual privacy if
they if they're going to avoid it. We had a
legislative attempt a few years ago to set up a
national Register of Identity for us all to have ID cards,
(09:08):
something that's pretty common in some other countries but it's
not a thing here and there was a very large
public outcright to that. It didn't make it through our
houses of Parliament because an is basically people didn't want
the government having a register of who everybody is and
where they live, and so with a CBDC that was
one of the biggest concerns, so that we were giving
(09:30):
a state institution, the Bank of England, the right to
a repository of information about who everybody is, where they live,
how much money they have. And that's one of the
reasons why the commercial banks will be involved in this
process because it keeps the Bank of England out of that.
It doesn't let them see you know who you are.
Everything is partially anonymized in that sense. The banks will know,
but the Bank of England won't. If you look at
(09:51):
the various levels of pushback from ranging from you know,
looking at privacy, which to some extent, as you say,
is being addressed, but also this idea that it's a
solution in such of a a problem. As we talked about,
what's the main marketing pitch, what's the boees and the
government's pitch behind doing this. What are they trying to
sell it on right now? Is it convenience? Is it
(10:13):
a mix of different things? There's an element of the
convenient side, right. They think that if everybody is currently
finding stable coins nice and convenient, then they should find
a digital pattern convenient too. There's a little bit of
a chicken before the egg though with this right, stable
coins still aren't that big. They're definitely not being used
for everyday payments at present. The idea is that if
crypto continues to grow at the level it is, and
(10:34):
that is a possible future, that we will use stable
coins for payments one day. And this is the Bank
of eng Them wanting to say we're not going to
get left behind with that. Even this, We started talking
about UKCBDC several years ago and we weren't expected to
even see anything like a CBDC in our hands to
be used for at least the second half of this decade.
And it's interesting that you mentioned stable coins, because you'd
(10:55):
be hard pressed to find a central banker these days
who loves stable coins, wouldn't you. I mean, giving what's
happened the last year or so, the regular reaction that
we've seen in the US. What is the regulatory view
on stable coins right how would you describe it right now? Negative?
Right now? Several big regulators, global bodies to national bodies
(11:18):
alike have all said that no current stable coin it
meets any of the existing standards that are out there
a form of digital money, they would not be able
to meet the parameters of emoney regimes in the UK,
which is the thing they will have to meet in
a few years time when that becomes law. And that
is a big problem for stable coin issuers because if
the pitch is that they want to become basically a
(11:38):
digital pound, but without the Bank of England, they're going
to need to meet these rules. Governments are pretty quickly
trying to put regimes in place to put parameters around
how stable coins are you used, how even the wallets
are able to be used. Those who would store them
would need to be registered with regulators too, and so
a CBDC is essentially trying to compete with those in
a way that will be regulated, will be safe to
(11:59):
some extent. Safe assending is and would basically get ahead
of stable coins before they can get in there first.
So work is proceeding, we're moving ahead, but what does
the timetable look right now? Like it's several years at least.
I don't know if we have a specific date really,
but it's definitely not imminent. I mean we're still at
the stages where we're having to engage with various parties
(12:21):
to decide exactly how each thing would look. This is
this consultation that's come out from the Bank of England
in twenty twenty three is kind of the first real
framework that we've had from them in terms of what
exactly this might look like, things the specifics of stuff
like you know, twenty thousand pound limits. But there are
still engagement forums happening every so often with different parties
(12:42):
from the banking sectors to finance sectors, technology sectors to
inform the Bank of Bing's work on that we haven't
yet decided. For example, if the Bank and will be
building its own blockchain to make this all happen on
if it will license that. There are banks out there
that have already developed into bank assesslement blockchains like JP Morgan.
So those are all options. So in some stable coins
are probably somewhere in our future. We don't quite know when,
(13:05):
and we don't quite know yet how they will look,
taste and fail. Yeah, but the government's a certainly worried,
and that's why we're building a chout. Thank you, Emony. Thanks.
That was Bloomberg reporter Emily Hall. You can find more
of her reporting on the Bloomberg terminal and on Bloomberg
dot com. For more, be sure to check out our
(13:26):
twice weekly newsletter, Bloomberg Crypto. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a
daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions or suggestions for
(13:49):
the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising
producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergelina. Our senior producer
is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Farouk and Sharon Barrero.
Our associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them
Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron.
(14:13):
I'm Stacy Mariaschmaal. We'll be back tomorrow.
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