May 16, 2025 • 13 mins
The UK is hugely dependent on overseas workers in the social-care sector, supporting the elderly, vulnerable and disabled. After a year-long investigation, Bloomberg has uncovered how potential migrants are being conned out of millions of pounds. Our trade and migration correspondent Lucy White explains how the system is being abused and what it means for a Labour government trying to cut immigration. Hosted by Stephen Carroll and Yuan Potts.
Read the full investigation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's a sunny Sunday afternoon and we're in Bedford. We've
met with a man called Charlie. Mister Brown has been
trying to help Charlie for the last several weeks to
find the scammer who took his money.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
That's Bimberg reporter Lucy Wis. Welcome to a special Bloomberg
UK Politics podcast. I'm Stephen Carroll and I'm New and
Potts Well.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
In a week where the Government has announced big changes
to the UK's immigration system, we're focusing on a particular
aspect to the issue that's been the subject of a
major Bloomberg investigation. It's to do with the Health and
Care workers visa, which was introduced in twenty twenty to
help address massive staffing shortages in the sectors. It was
designed to help speed up the process of bringing qualified
workers from abroad by allowing employers to sponsor new hires
(00:51):
more easily.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Now including dependents. Nearly seven hundred thousand people have come
to the UK under this visa category in the four
years to the end of last year. It accounted for
six percent of all UK visas issued and was the
largest share of working permits. But the process has become
rife with exploitation and that's what our reporting has uncovered,
and that's part of the reason the government has changed
(01:12):
the rules around these visas well.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Lucy whys you heard at the top of the show,
has been investigating this for Bluemerga. He joins us. Now
with more Lucy, let's start with the background to all
of this. How do these visas work?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So, as you mentioned, this is a system that came
into place in twenty twenty when staffing shortages were really bad.
We just had Bregsit. We were in the middle of
the pandemic. Staffing shortages in care homes and care for
the elderly were pretty bad. So Boris Johnson's government introduced
the Health and Care Worker Visa to allow businesses in
(01:45):
the UK to sponsor workers from overseas. They could go
to Well, they could apply to the Home Office for
a license to sponsor workers, and then they could use
that license to get certificates of sponsorship or cos's and
then they could go to various countries for example Nigeria, Zimbabwe,
Ghana to recruit workers and they would give them those
(02:08):
certificates of sponsorship. Everyone could have a certificate of sponsorship
which would then allow them to apply for a visa.
The problem that we had, the problem that I've seen
is that in the vast majority of cases, those certificates
of sponsorship were being sold for tens of thousands of pounds,
So we had people in their home country in Nigeria
(02:31):
or Zimbabwe or wherever it might be, paying tens of
thousands of pounds for the opportunity to work in the UK.
Should never have happened. That is not allowed under international law,
that a worker should be able to pay for the
job opportunity, and it's really caused a lot of problems
in that a lot of those certificates that were sold
(02:54):
were either fake or they never turned up at all.
That's one of the biggest problems that we've seen. There
are also other problems with the system that colleagues have
done other work on other publications involving people who did
get the certificates sponsorship, came to the US and then
have been exploited once they got here. But the issue
we've been focusing on are the scams of people who
never actually managed to leave their home country and have
(03:15):
been left with nothing because they sold everything to have
a shot to work in the UK.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Of course, yeah, huge, you know, lasses for those people
involved as well. I'm interested of what led you to
investigate this story. What was it that kind of piqued
your interest to look more deeply into this.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So my usual job on the politics team at Bloomberg
is as a migration and trade reporter, and it was
when I was talking to sources that I have the
migration sphere who had you know, various people who'd kind
of worked within government or advised the government on the
migration issue and the health and care visa in particular,
(03:52):
and they said, you know, we're not entirely sure what's
happening with this system, but we think there's something going
wrong with it, and we're not entirely sure what that is.
I think what they were actually seeing and what they
were referring to were the people who'd got to the
country and were then being exploited. But then we've uncovered
this secondary issue of people who'd never got to the
country and have been scammed. And I don't think the
(04:15):
Home Office is aware of quite the scale of this problem.
I mean, we've had reports come to us just in
the year that we've been working on this story from
hundreds of people who've been involved, and the sums of
money for each of them, I'd say an average of
about eight to ten thousand pounds they've paid. So the
amounts of money that are involved in this are into
the millions, and we think we've only just scratched the
surface of the number of people who are involved in this.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We heard at the start of the program one of
your part of one of your trips when you were
out reporting on this story as well. Because there are
people who are trying to help the victims of these
scams related to these visas, tell us about mister Brown.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Mister Brown is one of the people who I've spoken
to who has been trying to take matters into his
own hands because he's not had much luck with the police.
He's not had much luck with the Home Office or
the government in terms of, you know, trying to find
who the scammers are and be able to return the
money that they've taken to the people back in their
home countries. So mister Brown is a Zimbabwean who's been
(05:11):
living in the UK for nineteen years. He found out
about this issue from a report of a woman also
from Zimbabwe on social media. She was explaining on social
media how she had been scammed and he thought, you
know this isn't on. Something should be done about this.
So he got in touch with her, he found out
(05:31):
the details of her case, and he decided to expose
these scammers on social media himself. He thought, if the
government's not going to do it, if the police aren't
going to do it, then the least I can do
is stop people back in Zimbabwe or wherever else it
might be, from falling prey to the same scam. And
he also finds out the details of people's cases whoever
(05:53):
might come to report to him, and what he does
is he uses his position in the UK. He tries
to go and visit the scam and tries to persuade them.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I suppose to give.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Them that in a very gentle way, to give that
money back to the people who we took it from.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Let's say, listen to parts of your conversation with mister
Brown and what he was trying to achieve that day
in Bedford.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I think the guy we are going to see today
is going to tell us where he put the money,
since he's saying you've passed on the money to someone else.
And also we want to see how much you got
out of this, because I think it was like a business.
So we're trying to recover the money. So if we
get this guy, if you tell us how much he
(06:35):
got out of this thing and give us his share
or show us the evidence that yes, transferred the money
to whoever saying you give the money to. That's our
main main objective today.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
How much success is he had in trying to get
people's money back.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's interesting there are some people that he goes to
who willingly say, you know, yeah, I messed up here.
I'm going to give the money back. And there are yeah,
more people who are very stubborn about it. You know,
they kind of say, well, I've transferred the money onto
someone else. You know, I was only a middleman in
all of this. I was an agent, So it's there
you need to be chasing, not me. And there are
(07:11):
certain people who do get quite aggressive about it. I mean,
mister Brown has had a lot of threats made against him,
some of which we mentioned in the in the story,
from people who just want him to shut up, basically
because they think he's casting too much light onto this area.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And he lost his job for a time.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He did lose his job, yes, exactly, he was. He
was a support worker in the NHS and his employer
at the at the foundation that he worked at basically said,
you know, you need to stop doing this because they
had received complaints from the people who mister Brown had
exposed as scammers, who basically said, you know that this
(07:52):
man is harassing me. He's saying all the stuff about
me on social media. I want him gone. And employer
had to be like, you know, either you shut down
the Facebook page that you're running, or you you know,
have to bear the consequences of that. And mister Brown said,
you know, I feel really strongly about this issue. I
feel that I have to be doing something for my countrymen,
(08:13):
my countrywomen, and I'm not prepared to give that up.
So he did lose his job and he's since been
you know, he's brought a van, he's running his own
business now. But it has had real consequences for him.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
What's your sense of how widespread this is? Are there
other mister Brown's out there?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
There are There's a woman who I've spoken to who
I should mention actually that mister Brown is not his
real name, that's the name he goes by online for
to sort of protect himself a little. I've met a
woman as well called Na's Ferrari, which is the name
again that she goes by online, and she's doing a
similar thing, but with TikTok videos. You know, she's trying
to expose scammers through TikTok videos and she's been organizing
(08:54):
protests outside the home office. We've met her there and
she again, I think when I spoke to her a
couple of months ago, she was saying, since the beginning
of this year alone, she'd had one hundred and fifty
complaints come to her from people, and some of those
complaints will involve multiple victims back in their home countries.
So and again, you know, because so much of the
(09:16):
news about these scams spreads through words of mouth, through
through networks, you know, you're seeing basically these people finding
the scams that are most prevalent in their network. And
yet that there's various different nationalities, different countries who I'm
sure I haven't even scratched the surface of.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
But why aren't the home off as you mentioned the protests,
Why aren't the home offers of the police doing something
about this or what are they doing about you? I suppose.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I think at the moment, the protests haven't been kind
of big enough, they haven't snowballed enough to really kind
of grab the Home Officer's attention, even though it has
they have been right outside their office. I don't think
anyone's really kind of engaged with any of the people
who've been leading the protests to figure out a, you know,
what their problem is. In various different interactions that I
(10:05):
have had with people connected to the Home Office, I
get the feeling that this particular issue around the scams
is not sort of being picked up at the top
of their agenda at the moment, and there is definitely
a reporting problem, you know. I think the police we
have seen reports to Action Fraud, which is the body
of the City of London Police which is in charge
(10:27):
of fraud reports nationwide. We have seen the number of
reports made to Action Fraud escalate over the past few years.
I mean, I think there were more than three hundred
reported last year, and again I think that's only a
tiny fraction of what we're actually seeing. But Action Fraud
in most of these cases are just saying we're not
(10:48):
going to pass it on to the police for investigation
because you know, the victims in a different country, you know,
fraud cases and notoriously hard to investigate. They take a
lot of time resources, and you know, I think the
police don't have you know, a high enough priority on it.
And again they don't see the scale of the problem
because a lot of people are too scared to report it.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
So it sounds like the authority is not really not
tackling this at all. The changes that have been made
by the governmental change are announced by the government to
the immigration system, are they going to help to tackle this?
Is that going to be useful in this situation?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, So earlier this week in the immigration white paper
long awaited that Keir Starmer announced on on Monday, the
government announced that it would ban overseas recruitment of care
workers at some point in the future. We think that's
coming sort of later in the summer. The actual announcement
to to put that into effect, and essentially that will
(11:48):
help to stop future scams because it means that you know.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
No certificates won't exist.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Exactly exactly, but it's not doing anything to help the
people who have already been scammed. You know, there are hundreds,
potentially thousands of people who have already lost their entire
life savings any and now they've lost any hope that
they ever had of actually being able to get to
the UK. So in a way it should stop future scams,
but again that only helps if that if these measures
(12:17):
are communicated to the countries where people are coming from.
You know, if people in Zimbabwe don't know that the
UK is no longer recruiting care workers, then they're going
to keep buying these fake certificates or you know, falling
prey to these dodgy scams. So unless there is real
concerted effort by the Home Office to communicate with different countries,
(12:37):
to communicate with the countries that these care workers are
coming from, then it's still a problem.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, Lucy, why thank you for bringing us details of
your investigation. Do come back and keep us posted as
things develop. You can read Lucy's full article UK visa
scam squeeze millions from would be care workers on Bloomberg
dot com or on the terminal. That's it from us
for today. If you like the program, don't forget to subscribe,
give it five stars to other but can find it
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
This episode was produced by James Walcock and our audio
engineer was Shure Grostomachia. I'm you and.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Potts and I'm Stephen Carroll. We'll be back next week
with more. This is Bloomberg.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's a sunny Sunday afternoon and we're in Bedford. We've
met with a man called Charlie. Mister Brown has been
trying to help Charlie for the last several weeks to
find the scammer who took his money.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
That's Bimberg reporter Lucy Wis. Welcome to a special Bloomberg
UK Politics podcast. I'm Stephen Carroll and I'm New and
Potts Well.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
In a week where the Government has announced big changes
to the UK's immigration system, we're focusing on a particular
aspect to the issue that's been the subject of a
major Bloomberg investigation. It's to do with the Health and
Care workers visa, which was introduced in twenty twenty to
help address massive staffing shortages in the sectors. It was
designed to help speed up the process of bringing qualified
workers from abroad by allowing employers to sponsor new hires
(00:51):
more easily.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Now including dependents. Nearly seven hundred thousand people have come
to the UK under this visa category in the four
years to the end of last year. It accounted for
six percent of all UK visas issued and was the
largest share of working permits. But the process has become
rife with exploitation and that's what our reporting has uncovered,
and that's part of the reason the government has changed
(01:12):
the rules around these visas well.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Lucy whys you heard at the top of the show,
has been investigating this for Bluemerga. He joins us. Now
with more Lucy, let's start with the background to all
of this. How do these visas work?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So, as you mentioned, this is a system that came
into place in twenty twenty when staffing shortages were really bad.
We just had Bregsit. We were in the middle of
the pandemic. Staffing shortages in care homes and care for
the elderly were pretty bad. So Boris Johnson's government introduced
the Health and Care Worker Visa to allow businesses in
(01:45):
the UK to sponsor workers from overseas. They could go
to Well, they could apply to the Home Office for
a license to sponsor workers, and then they could use
that license to get certificates of sponsorship or cos's and
then they could go to various countries for example Nigeria, Zimbabwe,
Ghana to recruit workers and they would give them those
(02:08):
certificates of sponsorship. Everyone could have a certificate of sponsorship
which would then allow them to apply for a visa.
The problem that we had, the problem that I've seen
is that in the vast majority of cases, those certificates
of sponsorship were being sold for tens of thousands of pounds,
So we had people in their home country in Nigeria
(02:31):
or Zimbabwe or wherever it might be, paying tens of
thousands of pounds for the opportunity to work in the UK.
Should never have happened. That is not allowed under international law,
that a worker should be able to pay for the
job opportunity, and it's really caused a lot of problems
in that a lot of those certificates that were sold
(02:54):
were either fake or they never turned up at all.
That's one of the biggest problems that we've seen. There
are also other problems with the system that colleagues have
done other work on other publications involving people who did
get the certificates sponsorship, came to the US and then
have been exploited once they got here. But the issue
we've been focusing on are the scams of people who
never actually managed to leave their home country and have
(03:15):
been left with nothing because they sold everything to have
a shot to work in the UK.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Of course, yeah, huge, you know, lasses for those people
involved as well. I'm interested of what led you to
investigate this story. What was it that kind of piqued
your interest to look more deeply into this.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So my usual job on the politics team at Bloomberg
is as a migration and trade reporter, and it was
when I was talking to sources that I have the
migration sphere who had you know, various people who'd kind
of worked within government or advised the government on the
migration issue and the health and care visa in particular,
(03:52):
and they said, you know, we're not entirely sure what's
happening with this system, but we think there's something going
wrong with it, and we're not entirely sure what that is.
I think what they were actually seeing and what they
were referring to were the people who'd got to the
country and were then being exploited. But then we've uncovered
this secondary issue of people who'd never got to the
country and have been scammed. And I don't think the
(04:15):
Home Office is aware of quite the scale of this problem.
I mean, we've had reports come to us just in
the year that we've been working on this story from
hundreds of people who've been involved, and the sums of
money for each of them, I'd say an average of
about eight to ten thousand pounds they've paid. So the
amounts of money that are involved in this are into
the millions, and we think we've only just scratched the
surface of the number of people who are involved in this.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We heard at the start of the program one of
your part of one of your trips when you were
out reporting on this story as well. Because there are
people who are trying to help the victims of these
scams related to these visas, tell us about mister Brown.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Mister Brown is one of the people who I've spoken
to who has been trying to take matters into his
own hands because he's not had much luck with the police.
He's not had much luck with the Home Office or
the government in terms of, you know, trying to find
who the scammers are and be able to return the
money that they've taken to the people back in their
home countries. So mister Brown is a Zimbabwean who's been
(05:11):
living in the UK for nineteen years. He found out
about this issue from a report of a woman also
from Zimbabwe on social media. She was explaining on social
media how she had been scammed and he thought, you
know this isn't on. Something should be done about this.
So he got in touch with her, he found out
(05:31):
the details of her case, and he decided to expose
these scammers on social media himself. He thought, if the
government's not going to do it, if the police aren't
going to do it, then the least I can do
is stop people back in Zimbabwe or wherever else it
might be, from falling prey to the same scam. And
he also finds out the details of people's cases whoever
(05:53):
might come to report to him, and what he does
is he uses his position in the UK. He tries
to go and visit the scam and tries to persuade them.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I suppose to give.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Them that in a very gentle way, to give that
money back to the people who we took it from.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Let's say, listen to parts of your conversation with mister
Brown and what he was trying to achieve that day
in Bedford.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I think the guy we are going to see today
is going to tell us where he put the money,
since he's saying you've passed on the money to someone else.
And also we want to see how much you got
out of this, because I think it was like a business.
So we're trying to recover the money. So if we
get this guy, if you tell us how much he
(06:35):
got out of this thing and give us his share
or show us the evidence that yes, transferred the money
to whoever saying you give the money to. That's our
main main objective today.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
How much success is he had in trying to get
people's money back.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's interesting there are some people that he goes to
who willingly say, you know, yeah, I messed up here.
I'm going to give the money back. And there are yeah,
more people who are very stubborn about it. You know,
they kind of say, well, I've transferred the money onto
someone else. You know, I was only a middleman in
all of this. I was an agent, So it's there
you need to be chasing, not me. And there are
(07:11):
certain people who do get quite aggressive about it. I mean,
mister Brown has had a lot of threats made against him,
some of which we mentioned in the in the story,
from people who just want him to shut up, basically
because they think he's casting too much light onto this area.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And he lost his job for a time.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He did lose his job, yes, exactly, he was. He
was a support worker in the NHS and his employer
at the at the foundation that he worked at basically said,
you know, you need to stop doing this because they
had received complaints from the people who mister Brown had
exposed as scammers, who basically said, you know that this
(07:52):
man is harassing me. He's saying all the stuff about
me on social media. I want him gone. And employer
had to be like, you know, either you shut down
the Facebook page that you're running, or you you know,
have to bear the consequences of that. And mister Brown said,
you know, I feel really strongly about this issue. I
feel that I have to be doing something for my countrymen,
(08:13):
my countrywomen, and I'm not prepared to give that up.
So he did lose his job and he's since been
you know, he's brought a van, he's running his own
business now. But it has had real consequences for him.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
What's your sense of how widespread this is? Are there
other mister Brown's out there?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
There are There's a woman who I've spoken to who
I should mention actually that mister Brown is not his
real name, that's the name he goes by online for
to sort of protect himself a little. I've met a
woman as well called Na's Ferrari, which is the name
again that she goes by online, and she's doing a
similar thing, but with TikTok videos. You know, she's trying
to expose scammers through TikTok videos and she's been organizing
(08:54):
protests outside the home office. We've met her there and
she again, I think when I spoke to her a
couple of months ago, she was saying, since the beginning
of this year alone, she'd had one hundred and fifty
complaints come to her from people, and some of those
complaints will involve multiple victims back in their home countries.
So and again, you know, because so much of the
(09:16):
news about these scams spreads through words of mouth, through
through networks, you know, you're seeing basically these people finding
the scams that are most prevalent in their network. And
yet that there's various different nationalities, different countries who I'm
sure I haven't even scratched the surface of.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
But why aren't the home off as you mentioned the protests,
Why aren't the home offers of the police doing something
about this or what are they doing about you? I suppose.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I think at the moment, the protests haven't been kind
of big enough, they haven't snowballed enough to really kind
of grab the Home Officer's attention, even though it has
they have been right outside their office. I don't think
anyone's really kind of engaged with any of the people
who've been leading the protests to figure out a, you know,
what their problem is. In various different interactions that I
(10:05):
have had with people connected to the Home Office, I
get the feeling that this particular issue around the scams
is not sort of being picked up at the top
of their agenda at the moment, and there is definitely
a reporting problem, you know. I think the police we
have seen reports to Action Fraud, which is the body
of the City of London Police which is in charge
(10:27):
of fraud reports nationwide. We have seen the number of
reports made to Action Fraud escalate over the past few years.
I mean, I think there were more than three hundred
reported last year, and again I think that's only a
tiny fraction of what we're actually seeing. But Action Fraud
in most of these cases are just saying we're not
(10:48):
going to pass it on to the police for investigation
because you know, the victims in a different country, you know,
fraud cases and notoriously hard to investigate. They take a
lot of time resources, and you know, I think the
police don't have you know, a high enough priority on it.
And again they don't see the scale of the problem
because a lot of people are too scared to report it.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
So it sounds like the authority is not really not
tackling this at all. The changes that have been made
by the governmental change are announced by the government to
the immigration system, are they going to help to tackle this?
Is that going to be useful in this situation?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, So earlier this week in the immigration white paper
long awaited that Keir Starmer announced on on Monday, the
government announced that it would ban overseas recruitment of care
workers at some point in the future. We think that's
coming sort of later in the summer. The actual announcement
to to put that into effect, and essentially that will
(11:48):
help to stop future scams because it means that you know.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
No certificates won't exist.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Exactly exactly, but it's not doing anything to help the
people who have already been scammed. You know, there are hundreds,
potentially thousands of people who have already lost their entire
life savings any and now they've lost any hope that
they ever had of actually being able to get to
the UK. So in a way it should stop future scams,
but again that only helps if that if these measures
(12:17):
are communicated to the countries where people are coming from.
You know, if people in Zimbabwe don't know that the
UK is no longer recruiting care workers, then they're going
to keep buying these fake certificates or you know, falling
prey to these dodgy scams. So unless there is real
concerted effort by the Home Office to communicate with different countries,
(12:37):
to communicate with the countries that these care workers are
coming from, then it's still a problem.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, Lucy, why thank you for bringing us details of
your investigation. Do come back and keep us posted as
things develop. You can read Lucy's full article UK visa
scam squeeze millions from would be care workers on Bloomberg
dot com or on the terminal. That's it from us
for today. If you like the program, don't forget to subscribe,
give it five stars to other but can find it
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
This episode was produced by James Walcock and our audio
engineer was Shure Grostomachia. I'm you and.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Potts and I'm Stephen Carroll. We'll be back next week
with more. This is Bloomberg.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.