August 8, 2025 • 14 mins
Politics is about perception, and while the most serious crimes have been trending downwards, the British public are concerned about the prevalence of theft and fraud. So how can Labour follow through on its pledge to 'take back our streets' and make Britain feel safer? We ask Bloomberg's UK Politics Reporter Lucy White and Former Metropolitan Police Detective Superintendent Shabnam Chaudhri. Hosted by Caroline Hepker and Stephen Carroll. Produced by Freddy Foulston and Rose Henderson.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Labour's second national mission to make our streets safe and
stop criminals getting away without punishment. If you think that
sounds basic, something which should be guaranteed in a country
like ours, then let me tell you you're right.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
So that was the pitch on law and order when
Labor came to power. Hello, you're listening to Bloomberg UK Politics.
I'm Caroline Hepke.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
And I'm Stephen Carroll. Well, a lot has happened since
Kirstamer made that speech, and this year the government is
once again facing mounting pressure to tackle crime.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
But politics is about perception, and while crime rates have
seen a downward trend in recent decades, the British public
is feeling less safe. The Crime Survey for England and
Wales says that eighty two percent of people think crime
has gone up in the last few years, but the
data on actual crime paints a different picture. Serious crimes
like homicide at their lowest levels for more than a decade. However,
(01:03):
the ons data shows police recorded offenses of shoplifting and
theft are at record highs.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Politically, it's a conversation that parties like Reform UK are
keen to link to migration. The party's leader, Nija Faraj
says the Britain is lawless and a year on from
the riots triggered by misinformation about the suspect and the
murder of three children in Southport, the Prime Minister and
the Home Secretary of At Cooper are keen to avoid
a repeat this summer. The protests this year so far
(01:30):
have been contained. Keir Starmer himself though, saying that the
UK must prepare its social fabric or risk a repeat
of last year's riots that spread across much of the country.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
OH political reporter Lucy White joins us as our first
guest on the program today. Lucy, thank you for being
with us. Labour's manifesto pledge was about community policing, cracking
down on anti social behavior, tough penalties for offenders. How
has their mission met with reality in the past year.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
I think it's a really interesting point in that you've
seen Labor making various commitments, you know, kind of police
funding commitments, employing more police officers, but at the same
time you're kind of met with this perception issue that
everything is going wrong essentially, and that there's very little
that Labor has been able to do that's actually cut
(02:23):
through that messaging yet, so it's almost hard for labor
to be able to combat this in a way, and
that it's kind of like this very intangible kind of
feeling that you've got among the public that everything is
going really badly, that there is this rising kind of
rates of petty crime and that no one's doing anything
about it. Essentially, well, what.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Do we know about what labor is saying they're doing
about it, or perhaps the upcoming initiatives that they are
looking at in this area.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
It's very kind of early days. You know, it takes
a long time for any measures that labor is taking,
you know, the kind of funding for police, you know,
employing more police officers, it takes a long time for
that to kind of filter through. And I think the
problem is at the moment, you know, if people have
you know, say their phone snatched, or if people have
their bike stolen. It's those kinds of crimes that the
(03:10):
government really doesn't seem to be able to cut through
on because they're the types of crimes that people are seeing.
They're the types of crimes that they're reporting to the police,
and they're not seeing the police do anything about them
and those types of crimes that are becoming very very prevalent,
and I don't think Labor has really kind of thought
of an issue or is in communication with the police
on a method I suppose to kind of tackle those
(03:33):
really petty crimes that aren't necessarily, you know, the worst
thing that's going to happen in anyone's lives, but are
the sorts of things that everyone has a story about
and just saying, you know, this happened to my friend,
or this happened to me and no one did anything
about it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
What influences with former UK having on the conversation.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
It is a very very big issue at the moment
that Labor are having this kind of challenge from Reform.
So obviously we've got members of Parliament in recess at
the moment, they're all taking their summer break, and Reform
has really hit the ground filling that gap in the
news with its six week campaign on crime. Reform is
essentially trying to say that this rise in kind of
petty crime that people are seeing, that people are feeling
(04:11):
is linked to immigration. Obviously, over the last few years
we've seen a huge rise in immigration. Most of that
I should say has been legal immigration people coming here
to work or people coming here as students. But Reform
are really trying to capitalize on the fact that they
know there is a rise in both of these things,
and you know, it doesn't necessarily equal a correlation between
the two things for most people, but they're essentially trying
(04:33):
to plant the seed of that idea in most people's
heads because obviously we've seen Reform being hugely outspoken against migration.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Okay, you see why, hypolitical reporter. Thanks very much for
joining us for that briefing. I want to turn now
though to Chaplin Chawdrey, former detective superintendent in the Metropolitan Police,
the first Muslim woman to serve in that role and
currently chair of the Lunda Advisory Board for the anti
Muslim hate charity. Tell Mama Chaplin Adre, welcome to the program.
I want you to start with this passion of perception
that we've been talking about with Lucy. You know, the
(05:04):
data tells us the long term trend is downward and
the most serious crimes, but as Lucy was saying, that
question of patty crimes and things people have experienced does
seem to be more prevalent in people's minds, how would
you characterize Britain's challenges with law and order at the moment.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I think Lucy makes a really good point in terms
of a perception, because actually the public perception is actually
their reality, and I think that is one of the
real difficulties. No matter how many statistics you throw at
the public, what they perceive to be, you know, problematic
in communities is actually their reality. So you can throw
all sorts of you know, legislation that then introduce new
(05:43):
types of things to them. But if that's what they see,
and the points that she was making about low level
crime which is not being addressed or being investigated, they
are the kind of things that matter to the public,
to the general public.
Speaker 6 (05:59):
And whilst they're.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Homicide is down, of course that's important, but when it's
something that affects local businesses, local communities, you've got antisocial behavior,
people riding their bikes on pavements, eble scooters, stealing mobile phones,
all of those kinds of things which are really difficult
for policing to investigate because of the resourcing issue, because
(06:24):
of the recruitment and retention issues, are what will make
the public think that your statistics don't matter to me
because this is what I actually see for myself.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
What do you think is driving the uptick in shoplifting
and fare dodging and pretty crime and how can the
government get a handle on that? As you say, is
it all about resourcing? Is it about priorities? What should
the government be doing?
Speaker 6 (06:47):
Well?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
First of all, shoplifting drugs, for example, some of anti
social behavior elements are not priorities within policing. Violence against
women and girls, knife crime, and robbery's burglaries, these are
all seen as priorities, so when you're dealing with crimes
(07:07):
that affect the communities, they're not on the forefront of
the mind of the leadership within policing. In order to
be able to reduce that, resourcing is definitely an issue.
You've had severe cuts over the last decade and when
you look at neighborhood policing, this was the core part
of policing, where you've got neighborhood officers out on the
(07:29):
front line policing their communities, knowing what's going on, knowing
who the criminals are, knowing the local community, getting information
and getting intelligence, and that has been an issue. I
know that Labour have talked about increasing neighborhoods by thirteen thousand,
so additional police, community support officers and special constables on
(07:50):
the front line. But actually they're not going to be
there permanently. PCSOs don't go and make arrests as such,
they don't investigate crimes, and special constables are voluntary and
they're not there on a full time basis. They don't
have to do something like sixteen hours a month, so
you don't have that consistency. So I think that is
going to be a real issue. When you look at
(08:12):
small businesses, they employ security staff who are restricted in
terms of what they can and what they can't do.
They can't do their hands on because then they'll be
liable to assault or some form of arrest themselves. And
I was in the co op not so long ago,
two separate occasions. On one occasion, a guy rode in
(08:35):
on any scooter with a basket.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
This is no word of a lie.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
He filled up his basket and rode out, and not
one person battered an eyelid.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Okay, if that is on the petty crime side of things,
and the priority for policing is on the more serious crimes,
perhaps as it should be. The government has pledged to
have violence against women and girls and there's expected to
be a report coming out in the coming weeks. How
is it doing a year in tackling an immensely challenging
part of policing.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well, I think the biggest challenge they've got is to
suggest that they're going to have it, and I'm not
sure that that is a doable challenge for them, because
when you look at violent against women and girls, I
think it's makes up twenty percent of violence crime. That's
what the National Police chief Councils say. So they've made
(09:25):
some changes in legislation with regards to prolific offenders. They're
now going to be investigating crimes as if they were
dealing with counter terrorism or organized criminal network, so they're
throwing more resources as it forces now. Also, what they're
doing is rather than have local police officers in local
community safety teams or safeguarding teams, they're now having a
(09:48):
national picture on it, so they will target the top
one hundred prolific offenders who are higher risk offenders, and
then they will also I think it's it's Sarah's Law
where they can actually inform victims potential victims that they
are in a relationship with somebody that's got previous convictions.
So there is a lot going on, but there is
(10:09):
certainly not enough and I think that it's going to
take a long time for them to actually even get
to half. There will be some reductions, without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
But is this a question of policing just needing more
money more resources at a time when we're endlessly told
about all of the budgety challenges the government faces. Is
this an organizational issue within how policing is being prioritized
or is it simply there's just not enough money going
into it.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
I think they need more money.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
They've talked about the closure of police stations, for example,
across London, which is going to be a real issue,
but the footfall within police stations will have been reduced,
so there would have been a lot of research done
on that, but they'll use funding from that.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
They need more funding.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
If you want to keep police officers within policing, you've
got to increase their wages. Because police wages have gone
down significantly in the last few years. Their yearly increased
doesn't match what's going on with the economy, and you
know the rising prices of mortgages the cost of living, housing,
all that sort of thing. Right now, it's like a
(11:15):
revolving door. As you get one police officer in, you've
got five police officers leaving, and you've got a severe
lack of experience within policing because police officers have got
between two and five years service, that's within an entire
team of officers, and then they're being supervised and managed
by officers that got something like five years themselves. So
(11:38):
if they want to recruit and retain, they're going to
have to have better wages for police officers.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
And you know, make it more of an attractive job.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Police are not respected like they were fifteen years ago, unfortunately,
and it's no longer an attractive job.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
When you can go out and work the.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
London underground, for example, earn eighty thousand pounds a year
doing night shifts or the other types of shift, without
the hassle, without the stress, without the respect of the public.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Why would you do that particular job.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I'm not saying don't join, because if anybody asked me,
I would say, one, it's a fantastic job to do.
It's really challenging, it's really stressful, but it can also
be very rewarding.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
On the issue. Then around the data, Lucy, can I
bring you back in for a thought, because the perception
is that crime over the past ten years has been rising,
the survey data doesn't look like that. Is this about
the quality of the data? I mean, there's basically three
types of data that we use. Police recorded crime, a
(12:44):
survey of households and also hospitalizations when it comes to
more serious crimes. Do we have a data problem in
the UK when it comes to crime or is it perception?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
There are certainly issues around it, especially when you're measuring
that kind of low level, more sort of petty crime,
you know, police recorded crime. At that level, there's a
lot of things people don't report to the police anymore
separately with the surveys, although that should catch the issues
that aren't reported because it just asks people in their households,
you know, what is your experience of crime? Those kinds
(13:17):
of surveys that the Office for National Statistics does are
not the most widely taken up. Although the level of
people responding to that survey is better than some of
the other RNs surveys, there are still a lot of
people who just don't bother to reply, or that the
RNs isn't catching necessarily a representative group, so there definitely
(13:38):
are issues around the data. But that's the same in
every country as well, and I think it's hard to say,
you know, the UK is particularly worse at this than
anyone else's.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Okay, Lucy, thank you very much for joining us. Ourpulist
reporter at Lucy White, and to Shabnam Tawdry as well,
former Detective superintendent in the Metropolitan Police. Thank you to
you both for contributing to this conversation. That's it from
us for today. If you like the program forget to
subscribe and give it five stars so that people can
find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
This episode was produced by Freddie Fulston and Rose Henderson.
Our audio engineer was Andrew Gavin.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I'm Carolina Nepkin and I'm Stephen Caroll. We'll be back
with more next week. This is Boomberg.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Labour's second national mission to make our streets safe and
stop criminals getting away without punishment. If you think that
sounds basic, something which should be guaranteed in a country
like ours, then let me tell you you're right.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
So that was the pitch on law and order when
Labor came to power. Hello, you're listening to Bloomberg UK Politics.
I'm Caroline Hepke.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
And I'm Stephen Carroll. Well, a lot has happened since
Kirstamer made that speech, and this year the government is
once again facing mounting pressure to tackle crime.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
But politics is about perception, and while crime rates have
seen a downward trend in recent decades, the British public
is feeling less safe. The Crime Survey for England and
Wales says that eighty two percent of people think crime
has gone up in the last few years, but the
data on actual crime paints a different picture. Serious crimes
like homicide at their lowest levels for more than a decade. However,
(01:03):
the ons data shows police recorded offenses of shoplifting and
theft are at record highs.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Politically, it's a conversation that parties like Reform UK are
keen to link to migration. The party's leader, Nija Faraj
says the Britain is lawless and a year on from
the riots triggered by misinformation about the suspect and the
murder of three children in Southport, the Prime Minister and
the Home Secretary of At Cooper are keen to avoid
a repeat this summer. The protests this year so far
(01:30):
have been contained. Keir Starmer himself though, saying that the
UK must prepare its social fabric or risk a repeat
of last year's riots that spread across much of the country.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
OH political reporter Lucy White joins us as our first
guest on the program today. Lucy, thank you for being
with us. Labour's manifesto pledge was about community policing, cracking
down on anti social behavior, tough penalties for offenders. How
has their mission met with reality in the past year.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
I think it's a really interesting point in that you've
seen Labor making various commitments, you know, kind of police
funding commitments, employing more police officers, but at the same
time you're kind of met with this perception issue that
everything is going wrong essentially, and that there's very little
that Labor has been able to do that's actually cut
(02:23):
through that messaging yet, so it's almost hard for labor
to be able to combat this in a way, and
that it's kind of like this very intangible kind of
feeling that you've got among the public that everything is
going really badly, that there is this rising kind of
rates of petty crime and that no one's doing anything
about it. Essentially, well, what.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Do we know about what labor is saying they're doing
about it, or perhaps the upcoming initiatives that they are
looking at in this area.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
It's very kind of early days. You know, it takes
a long time for any measures that labor is taking,
you know, the kind of funding for police, you know,
employing more police officers, it takes a long time for
that to kind of filter through. And I think the
problem is at the moment, you know, if people have
you know, say their phone snatched, or if people have
their bike stolen. It's those kinds of crimes that the
(03:10):
government really doesn't seem to be able to cut through
on because they're the types of crimes that people are seeing.
They're the types of crimes that they're reporting to the police,
and they're not seeing the police do anything about them
and those types of crimes that are becoming very very prevalent,
and I don't think Labor has really kind of thought
of an issue or is in communication with the police
on a method I suppose to kind of tackle those
(03:33):
really petty crimes that aren't necessarily, you know, the worst
thing that's going to happen in anyone's lives, but are
the sorts of things that everyone has a story about
and just saying, you know, this happened to my friend,
or this happened to me and no one did anything
about it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
What influences with former UK having on the conversation.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
It is a very very big issue at the moment
that Labor are having this kind of challenge from Reform.
So obviously we've got members of Parliament in recess at
the moment, they're all taking their summer break, and Reform
has really hit the ground filling that gap in the
news with its six week campaign on crime. Reform is
essentially trying to say that this rise in kind of
petty crime that people are seeing, that people are feeling
(04:11):
is linked to immigration. Obviously, over the last few years
we've seen a huge rise in immigration. Most of that
I should say has been legal immigration people coming here
to work or people coming here as students. But Reform
are really trying to capitalize on the fact that they
know there is a rise in both of these things,
and you know, it doesn't necessarily equal a correlation between
the two things for most people, but they're essentially trying
(04:33):
to plant the seed of that idea in most people's
heads because obviously we've seen Reform being hugely outspoken against migration.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Okay, you see why, hypolitical reporter. Thanks very much for
joining us for that briefing. I want to turn now
though to Chaplin Chawdrey, former detective superintendent in the Metropolitan Police,
the first Muslim woman to serve in that role and
currently chair of the Lunda Advisory Board for the anti
Muslim hate charity. Tell Mama Chaplin Adre, welcome to the program.
I want you to start with this passion of perception
that we've been talking about with Lucy. You know, the
(05:04):
data tells us the long term trend is downward and
the most serious crimes, but as Lucy was saying, that
question of patty crimes and things people have experienced does
seem to be more prevalent in people's minds, how would
you characterize Britain's challenges with law and order at the moment.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I think Lucy makes a really good point in terms
of a perception, because actually the public perception is actually
their reality, and I think that is one of the
real difficulties. No matter how many statistics you throw at
the public, what they perceive to be, you know, problematic
in communities is actually their reality. So you can throw
all sorts of you know, legislation that then introduce new
(05:43):
types of things to them. But if that's what they see,
and the points that she was making about low level
crime which is not being addressed or being investigated, they
are the kind of things that matter to the public,
to the general public.
Speaker 6 (05:59):
And whilst they're.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Homicide is down, of course that's important, but when it's
something that affects local businesses, local communities, you've got antisocial behavior,
people riding their bikes on pavements, eble scooters, stealing mobile phones,
all of those kinds of things which are really difficult
for policing to investigate because of the resourcing issue, because
(06:24):
of the recruitment and retention issues, are what will make
the public think that your statistics don't matter to me
because this is what I actually see for myself.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
What do you think is driving the uptick in shoplifting
and fare dodging and pretty crime and how can the
government get a handle on that? As you say, is
it all about resourcing? Is it about priorities? What should
the government be doing?
Speaker 6 (06:47):
Well?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
First of all, shoplifting drugs, for example, some of anti
social behavior elements are not priorities within policing. Violence against
women and girls, knife crime, and robbery's burglaries, these are
all seen as priorities, so when you're dealing with crimes
(07:07):
that affect the communities, they're not on the forefront of
the mind of the leadership within policing. In order to
be able to reduce that, resourcing is definitely an issue.
You've had severe cuts over the last decade and when
you look at neighborhood policing, this was the core part
of policing, where you've got neighborhood officers out on the
(07:29):
front line policing their communities, knowing what's going on, knowing
who the criminals are, knowing the local community, getting information
and getting intelligence, and that has been an issue. I
know that Labour have talked about increasing neighborhoods by thirteen thousand,
so additional police, community support officers and special constables on
(07:50):
the front line. But actually they're not going to be
there permanently. PCSOs don't go and make arrests as such,
they don't investigate crimes, and special constables are voluntary and
they're not there on a full time basis. They don't
have to do something like sixteen hours a month, so
you don't have that consistency. So I think that is
going to be a real issue. When you look at
(08:12):
small businesses, they employ security staff who are restricted in
terms of what they can and what they can't do.
They can't do their hands on because then they'll be
liable to assault or some form of arrest themselves. And
I was in the co op not so long ago,
two separate occasions. On one occasion, a guy rode in
(08:35):
on any scooter with a basket.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
This is no word of a lie.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
He filled up his basket and rode out, and not
one person battered an eyelid.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Okay, if that is on the petty crime side of things,
and the priority for policing is on the more serious crimes,
perhaps as it should be. The government has pledged to
have violence against women and girls and there's expected to
be a report coming out in the coming weeks. How
is it doing a year in tackling an immensely challenging
part of policing.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well, I think the biggest challenge they've got is to
suggest that they're going to have it, and I'm not
sure that that is a doable challenge for them, because
when you look at violent against women and girls, I
think it's makes up twenty percent of violence crime. That's
what the National Police chief Councils say. So they've made
(09:25):
some changes in legislation with regards to prolific offenders. They're
now going to be investigating crimes as if they were
dealing with counter terrorism or organized criminal network, so they're
throwing more resources as it forces now. Also, what they're
doing is rather than have local police officers in local
community safety teams or safeguarding teams, they're now having a
(09:48):
national picture on it, so they will target the top
one hundred prolific offenders who are higher risk offenders, and
then they will also I think it's it's Sarah's Law
where they can actually inform victims potential victims that they
are in a relationship with somebody that's got previous convictions.
So there is a lot going on, but there is
(10:09):
certainly not enough and I think that it's going to
take a long time for them to actually even get
to half. There will be some reductions, without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
But is this a question of policing just needing more
money more resources at a time when we're endlessly told
about all of the budgety challenges the government faces. Is
this an organizational issue within how policing is being prioritized
or is it simply there's just not enough money going
into it.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
I think they need more money.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
They've talked about the closure of police stations, for example,
across London, which is going to be a real issue,
but the footfall within police stations will have been reduced,
so there would have been a lot of research done
on that, but they'll use funding from that.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
They need more funding.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
If you want to keep police officers within policing, you've
got to increase their wages. Because police wages have gone
down significantly in the last few years. Their yearly increased
doesn't match what's going on with the economy, and you
know the rising prices of mortgages the cost of living, housing,
all that sort of thing. Right now, it's like a
(11:15):
revolving door. As you get one police officer in, you've
got five police officers leaving, and you've got a severe
lack of experience within policing because police officers have got
between two and five years service, that's within an entire
team of officers, and then they're being supervised and managed
by officers that got something like five years themselves. So
(11:38):
if they want to recruit and retain, they're going to
have to have better wages for police officers.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
And you know, make it more of an attractive job.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Police are not respected like they were fifteen years ago, unfortunately,
and it's no longer an attractive job.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
When you can go out and work the.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
London underground, for example, earn eighty thousand pounds a year
doing night shifts or the other types of shift, without
the hassle, without the stress, without the respect of the public.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Why would you do that particular job.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I'm not saying don't join, because if anybody asked me,
I would say, one, it's a fantastic job to do.
It's really challenging, it's really stressful, but it can also
be very rewarding.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
On the issue. Then around the data, Lucy, can I
bring you back in for a thought, because the perception
is that crime over the past ten years has been rising,
the survey data doesn't look like that. Is this about
the quality of the data? I mean, there's basically three
types of data that we use. Police recorded crime, a
(12:44):
survey of households and also hospitalizations when it comes to
more serious crimes. Do we have a data problem in
the UK when it comes to crime or is it perception?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
There are certainly issues around it, especially when you're measuring
that kind of low level, more sort of petty crime,
you know, police recorded crime. At that level, there's a
lot of things people don't report to the police anymore
separately with the surveys, although that should catch the issues
that aren't reported because it just asks people in their households,
you know, what is your experience of crime? Those kinds
(13:17):
of surveys that the Office for National Statistics does are
not the most widely taken up. Although the level of
people responding to that survey is better than some of
the other RNs surveys, there are still a lot of
people who just don't bother to reply, or that the
RNs isn't catching necessarily a representative group, so there definitely
(13:38):
are issues around the data. But that's the same in
every country as well, and I think it's hard to say,
you know, the UK is particularly worse at this than
anyone else's.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Okay, Lucy, thank you very much for joining us. Ourpulist
reporter at Lucy White, and to Shabnam Tawdry as well,
former Detective superintendent in the Metropolitan Police. Thank you to
you both for contributing to this conversation. That's it from
us for today. If you like the program forget to
subscribe and give it five stars so that people can
find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
This episode was produced by Freddie Fulston and Rose Henderson.
Our audio engineer was Andrew Gavin.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I'm Carolina Nepkin and I'm Stephen Caroll. We'll be back
with more next week. This is Boomberg.
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