EPISODE 15: How Samantha Bee conquered late night

This week Will Leitch and John Heilemann are joined by Variety media critic Maureen Ryan to discuss how Samantha Bee, Saturday Night Live and the rest of late night comedy are handling the Trump campaign.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome everybody to this the Hey, well what episode of
this this h eighteen, nineteen sixty three one of those. Okay,
So welcome to the latest episode of the Culture Caucus,
the Bloomberg Politics podcast on the intersection of politics and culture.
I am John Heilman, and I am deeply honored as
Will Leach to be here in the room with John Hillen. Yeah.
So we're sitting in Bloomberg. Here we are at the

(00:23):
Bloomberg headquarters, at the Boorg We're sitting in a radio studio.
This is like comfortable. And Will's wearing a jacket and
like a button down shirt and a pair of gray slax.
He looks he's in his baseball broadcasters outfit. If you
had is, if you had your your your aviator sunglasses on,
you'd be like Joe Biden. Hello sports fans. Okay, And
we're here to talk about politics and culture, but in

(00:45):
particular we're gonna talk about late night TV comedy politics,
because it's like really back upon us. Saturday Ight Live
is back on the air, making waves, making laughs, doing
all kinds of stuff. And of course the campaign has
reached this kind of like almost terminal place of lunacy
and absurdity and poke fun ability, addit ability or whatever

(01:08):
the right mockability. Oh good, thank god, I have a
writer in the room with me. I was a writer one.
I was the writer once. I used to do that. Um,
so we're gonna talk about SNL and we're gonna talk
about maybe about even some other late night comedy and
the kind of profusion of late night comedy. And it's
with all the political grist that's getting chewed up by
those various mills. And then we're gonna have Mo Ryan,

(01:29):
who is Varieties television critic, and she uh, you know,
when you think about there's a lot of smart people
writing about TV. There's James Ponawazak right at the New
York Times. He's good Alan stepping Wall you really like, Right,
there's some good TV writers out there in the world.
Of course, Pulitzer Prize winning a lot of good TV.
As TV has gotten so good, TV has gotten good, right,

(01:50):
we agree, right, TV great. So as TV has gotten
really good, a lot of really great writers have become
kind of risen up to meet the moment. I think
that's a whole that's be a whole other podcast can
talk about that because the truth is it used to
be if you wanted to write about images in a
smart way, you became a film credit and there was
a boom event in the Ebert Cisco. Yeah, and you
know the Rise of the Tour theory and all that ship.

(02:11):
Now you've got a lot of really smart people who
are like Funck movies. Man, I want to write about
TV and mo Ryan is maybe the best, but if
not the best, one of the best, certainly, like in
the n the End of the People we just mentioned
she's great. She'll be on the podcast a little later.
So well, the question I want to ask you is
this UM Saturday Night Live starts up again in the fall.
Every fall Saturday Lives starts up again, but every four

(02:34):
years it's special because politics is in full swing. In
these years when we have presidential election. Everybody you know
remembers the famous SNL political moments. You know, most early
on Chevy Chase plan and Gerald Forward stumbling out of
the plane. Later on, you know John Lovett's plan in
Mike Dukakis, if I'm losing to this right, hilarious like

(02:55):
classic moment, right, Dana Carvey and George Herbert Walker Bush
was incredible, So both it like so good that people
did when they did impressive George H. W. Bush, they
were actually doing impression of Dana Carvey doing impression. Well,
they were really doing the church ladies most of the time. Right,
and then you you know, obviously I mean Will Ferrell
as w I mean like for the Ages, right, and

(03:16):
now we have a new cast do and they never
really got obomba, right. I don't think Jay Farrell, I
don't think anybody's ever really got a bob Obomba is hard,
but we got now in a glorious piece of stunt casting.
We've now had Alec Baldwin doing Donald Trump. But before
we discussed that, I'm gonna ask you a questions. Just
remind everybody that can find this podcast where find of
course in your ears. This is exactly also also on

(03:39):
Bloomberry Politics dot com. Make sure to subscribe to us
on iTunes and give us a nice review. Why or
that's the best place to find us. Also on sound Club,
but subscribe to us. I do give us a review.
Helps people find the show, and we're happy to be
able to have people say nice things about us. Okay,
so that first cold opening, the of the season premiere,
that had Baldwin playing Trump in the first debate. It's
one of the most retweeted thing. I embedded that thing

(03:59):
in my at her feet. I send it out. People
want nuts, and I thought, like I figured everyone who
had already seen it, but people went nuts watching a
million times. What did you think of Baldwin as Trump?
I you know, Trump is so hard because I did
the ranking for Bloomberg Politics of all the different people
that have done Trump, and I actually had Baldwin second
on that. I think he's really good because number one,
I don't even see this piece was number one. I
thought number one. We'll get it that in a second,

(04:20):
because we'll talk about Baldwin first. To me, the best
thing about Baldwin was, uh, it is a little it's
dialed up pretty high, as you'd almost feel like it
has to be. But there's a grotesqueery he's found in
him that like the Trump, Baldwin does this weird thing
where he like slightly closes his left eye, almost like
a gargoyle, which is not something that Trump actually does

(04:41):
at all, but but it it's gotten. It's made him
feel like, honestly, like a gargoyle sitting on the steps
on a perch above the steps of an old museum
or something. He's made him like just weird, and they
they've overdone the orange makeup a little bit and they've
made him like this kind of But the one I had,
the best one was Phil Hartman. And the reason that
Phil Harmond was the best because that was bank. You know,

(05:03):
when I did the rankings, a lot of people said, oh,
why didn't you have Donald Trump in the ranking because
he's doing this impressive himself in a lot of ways.
I mean, that's what's so great about You have some
really smart commenters, that's right, super meta thing to say,
why didn't you put Donald Trump the most of Donald
Trump imitators? Because he is because he's playing that character.
But the thing that's great about Phil Hartman is his
personation was actually before all of that, really before Trump
became back, when he was just this New York tabloid staple.

(05:26):
And what's great about is he actually the thing that
Hartman does really well. And I think I think that Baldwin,
while still uh still going over the top with it
more than the Harmon did. Harmon gets the coldness of
Trump right, like, really most of his impersonations of him
were about the Avanka divorced stuff. But basically the Hartman
he is actually a real person, Like he basically is

(05:47):
just like a real person with an accent, but really
what he gets is kind of the dead eyed like
this is about me and I'm the only one that
cares about and I'm gonna win no matter what. It's
almost you can almost see Trump watching that impersonation be like, oh,
I'm to be like that guy, Like that's actually I
would be the one presson. You can imagine him being
very happy with other than the fact that Trump would
just be happy to anyone's impersonating him at all. Um.

(06:08):
But the thing, the thing that works about the baldwoman
is the Trump that we see now. You're seeing him
increasingly as a less comical character as this election drags
on on and on, And I think Baldwin Wilde certainly
doing a broad impersonation, there's something just manifestly ugly and
kind of like gnarled almost about his Trump that I
think kind of does work for this little moment, right.

(06:30):
The gargoyle thing is clear and I and I thought,
you know, the cold open that that debate cold open
was brilliant. The thing that they did last week after
the release of the Access Hollywood, Access Hollywood, Yeah, Access
Hollywood tapes, the Billy Bush Tapes, will call them the
bush Tapes. Um, it was in some ways more more powerful,

(06:53):
in some way I thought, just because obviously the moment,
you know, called for it, and the thing about it,
of course that this is a complex thing to discuss us.
I think, first of all, part of the reason to
your you use the word gargoyle. Part of the reason
I think why Alex Alec Baldwin's imitation is very good
is because it channels just the main thing about Trump.

(07:14):
What's the main thing. The main thing is unfathomable narcissism
and in just the level the size of the ego
is so huge as to kind of be you know,
hard to comprehend and grotesque, right, And it's literally driven
our entire national conversation. And the truth is that Alec Baldwin,
who is a brilliant actor, and I think he's a

(07:35):
brilliant comic actor. I think he's been a brilliant dramatic actor.
I'm a huge fan of Alec Baldwin. I have sat
in coffee shops and him against it with Alec Baldwin
but he is also an egomaniacal narcissist of a high
high order. So he's tapping into something that's really part
of his own character. And then you know, Alec Baldwin
has had a complicated relationship passed according to the tabloids,
at least with some of the women in his life,

(07:56):
nothing like what Trump has suggested. No one's accused Alec Baldwin.
I believe sexual assault, but as Trump suggested, he had
himself partaken of or engaged in. But he's had a
complicated life, and we know he's a volcanic guy, and
he's had complicated relationships with women. And I actually think
part of the charge of seeing Baldwin play Trump is

(08:18):
not just technique, but is that there's something actually kind
of trumpy about Baldwin and Baldwin if he hears this,
will come and punch me, because I mean, I'm not
trying to say bald which I think speaks to what
you're talking about. I'm not trying to say Baldwin's like dumb, right,
or that he's intellectually Baldwin's obvious, really smart guy. But
I just mean there are certain characteristics that are that
are key to Trump that Baldwin possesses a version of

(08:39):
and he is openly, nakedly um transparently tapping into that
and into not the subtext but the supertext sort of
of Oh, this is Alec Baldwin, you know, playing Donald
Trump and they're both famous New Yorkers. There's just a lot,
you know, there's a lot going on. No way, there's
not been like dozens of parties that they play. Yes,
of course, right totally. And so that's part of the

(09:01):
thing when you see it. I mean, if he wasn't
good at doing it, executing it, it would fall flat.
But the combination of technique and then all that other
stuff that you bring into watching it as a viewer,
it makes it really really really great, I think, and
really it just kind of makes you, oh, wow, man,
this is like I'm this I'm seeing something here. Yeah,
and you know you've since you know, when Trump hosted

(09:22):
last year, of course he had to Darrell Hammond and
then the other Trump personator that they had in the
show upstage with him, and they both looked kind of dumb,
like they both kind of because they were impression rather
than than I wouldn't even say more than a caricature
of what Trump what what Baldwin's doing. But it's a
strong angle at it, and it's it's frankly, you know,
it's certainly less kind than Kate mckinnons Clinton is, but

(09:46):
certainly seems to capture something about the person that the
person doing the impersonation understands about themselves. When yeah, it's interesting,
you know. And part of the thing having had like
a little bit of experience around this, you know, with
with Game Change, is that Tina Fe was brilliant as Palin,
but it was also totally imitation, right, It was not
there was no this this level of subtext and supertext

(10:09):
was not happening with her. She did a hilarious spot
on kind of imitation of Palin and captured her dinginess.
Which is one of the great things about that too,
is that Tina Fe was not the show at the time,
but be never really did impressions, So it was really funny,
like the audience just kind of cast her. But so
for her to come up, like really in the span
of like five days with this angle on her was

(10:29):
I always thought it was like almost kind of alchemy,
right and yet and not in yet yes, and yet
like when we were talking about casting the Game Change movie,
when nobody wanted to do Tina fe both because for
two reasons one was too obvious, actually three reasons. One
reason too obvious, second reason, like you it would could
net You couldn't move it from from from parody and

(10:51):
sketch comedy to the deeper, richer thing that that whoever
played Palin would have to do in the movie. And
also that Tina Fey's not really a thespian in that way.
She's a brilliant kind of comic actress, but you needed
somebody She's not quite right for it. So there are
a bunch of things you wanted to get Fay out
of your Everyone would bring all their fame memories to it.
Right again, I'm always into like how viewers what they

(11:12):
bring to the party, because they're as much a part
of the experience as the person's performance. Right, So we
look for Julianne Moore, We don't look for Julie more,
look for a lot of people. And and admitting the
initial thing with Julianne was she didn't really look like Palin,
And then you know, you did, like a little power
point mock up be like, Okay, that might work, and
then she was obviously great. So interestingly to me, you know,
if someone makes a movie about this campaign, you know,

(11:34):
the question of who will be cast as Trump is
an interesting question. And I think Baldwin's performance is great,
but again a little too broad, a little too cartoony,
and again now it's leaving such an impression that you
won't want him. I was sitting in a green room
a couple of days ago with Brian Cranston and he
wants to play Trump, like openly is pinting to pay

(11:54):
Trump play drup I believe has publicly said this, And
I asked him to do some Trump for me, like,
like to do it, not not just to see if
he had the thing. He's not a big guy, and
he played, but he played LBJ effectively. So and I
watched Cranston do about ten minutes of Trump fucking brilliant,
I mean fucking brilliant. He was doing these things with
his hands and that was like actorly and it made

(12:17):
me again, no diss on Alec Baldwin, who is a
great actor, but I'm watching Cranston going, oh, you could
play this part. Yeah, And there will be a lot
of actors who are are going to want to be
in that running. Yeah, it reminds me a little of
It's funny with two things. On that one we talked
about the impersonation. Like one of the biggest mistakes the
movie The Late Shift made, remember the one about the
Letterman Leno stuff, was they cast Rich Little as Johnny Carson,
and it was so stupid, like Johnny Carson needs to

(12:39):
be like a big like he's the guiding force for everyone. Well,
he's a really complicated human. Yeah, And I I don't want
to just give this dumb impression impressionist. It was just
because I thought the actors that played Letterman Leno actually
gave a bought a lot to it and did the best.
But all their scenes with Carson were in a vacuum.
But to me, the second party is physical. Uh, similarity

(12:59):
to the to the people by the actors is really
not important. I think the best, probably the best to impersonation,
the best two performances ever saw. It's like saying Nixon
Philip Baker Hall in Secret in Secret Honor, which is
the Robert Altman movie, and really Anthony Hopkins, Oh my god,
in the Stone movie is so good. So he looks

(13:20):
nothing like him, but he gets into that, he digs
down deep into there. It doesn't matter that he doesn't
like Nixon because that's Nixon. Yeah, you know, lan Jella
in in Frost Nixon was pretty incredible. Also, again, guy
who looks nothing like Richard Nixon had nothing to do
with and it didn't look like him at all. So
whereas Kevin Spacey, by the way, in the new movie
Elvis and Nixon with it's not good because Kevin Spacey,

(13:41):
who was a really charming actor, is doing a parlor impersonation.
All right, So I want to, like, so we've been talking,
we got a little as usual, we digressed a little
bit and and we got to get to mo Ryan
and but I want to I want to just look
back on one thing, which is to to have a
little bit because I know we're gonna talk about this
with Mo is like a slightly broader thing about what's
happening in the world of late night comedy. Obviously, cigner
A Live matters a lot, people pay attention to. It
got very huge audience and because of its topicality and

(14:02):
because they do it on the fly, you know, they
can land some things sometimes when especially when the timing
is right. It's also the case that there is this big,
broad world now late night comedy you know that was
always there's always been this world doesn't It's not new,
but it's way more political now than ever. Right. So
You've got people like Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Kimmel, who no
one thinks is being particularly political, but who are now,

(14:22):
you know, infusing politics in various ways into their shows.
You've got Colbert who is um, you know Colbert, and
is trying to make his show, make that a staple
part of his brand, not to completely be the old
Colbert Show, but he wants elements of that. A lot
of that's come back. Yes, it's come back much straight. Yes,
much more than people thought. When he first went there,
I was like, oh, I'm not gonna do anything that

(14:42):
much more. Yeah, he was very clear about that. Now
he's yeah that it's a big it's a strength from
and an interest in a passion, and sometimes it's been
very good, I think. But I'm interested in what you
think of the To me, one of the defining features
of sixteen, which is the collapse of the Comedy Central
late night franchise, because I think part of the reason
why SNL can let everyone's kind of glad it's back,

(15:06):
and why people are looking to Colbert and to other
you know, other forums in the late night space, is
that the thing that everybody watched in the last few
presidential cycles. Of the entire of the twenty one century,
there was not a presidential cycle that was not basically
everyone you knew watching at a minimum Steward every night,

(15:26):
but often Stewart and Colbert every night. And they were
an integral part of the fabric of how we understood elections.
They were part of how we laughed at them, but
also how we commented on them, and people found some
people found their news there whatever, but they were integral,
right integral. People stopped watching a lot of other things
to watch those shows if you were remotely interested in politics.
So now here we have the most incredible presidential election,

(15:47):
or at least the most kind of hallucinatory and crazy
is And you've got just a big boyd there. Larry
Wilmore is gone already, didn't make it through more than
really a year, I guess. And you've got Trevor Noah
who you know. The show sometimes good, some it's not
that good, but it's not like anything like an integral
part of our political conversation. So what do you think it's?

(16:09):
First of all, do you agree with me about the collapse?
And second of all, if you agree about the collapse,
what do you think the fallout has been about in
terms of its absence? I think I think that if
anyone I think that's it's definitely there's been a clear
issue there comedy centually, I think probably problem there have
been two problems. One is they've lost a lot of
talent that that maybe they should have given that show
to Samantha b or they should have given that show

(16:31):
to John Oliver. Was a matter of timing. I think
if John Oliver had not left for HBO, he would
have gotten that job. I guess when they were clearly
and I wonder I wonder an alternate universe where Stewart knows,
he tells Oliver, I'm gonna retire at this time, Oliver
stays along and gets that show. The Daily Show has
been that been like this every day with John Oliver
the entire time, and it feels like it hasn't missed

(16:52):
a beat. So because I've got a lot of what
people get out of John Stewart they're getting out of
John Oliver specifically, but also Samantha b and some other people,
but also but I think it gets lost a little bit.
At the time that Stewart retired, Uh, it was people
were getting a little tired of that show. And one
of the reasons they were getting tired of that show
is it felt like people were almost getting like the

(17:13):
show was starting to feel like it was being less
about comedy and more about advocacy, and which I think
Stewart would be the first to admit, and I think
was one of the reasons why he felt kind of
comfortable stepping away, thinking I'm now I'm just banging my
head against a wall. It's it's I'm not doing a
comedy show anymore. I'm doing alternate programming the Fox News.
So I think that he felt that way. The problem was,

(17:33):
like the rest of us, he didn't know that Trump
was coming and and and like we didn't and he didn't.
I think if I think that's why that collapses, it's
not so much that Trevor know is untalented. It's not
so much that but the moment that they the reason
they probably know it was one obviously to have more
not only multicultural but more international kind of flavor to
the show. But also they understood, like Stewart did, that

(17:57):
people were getting a little tired of a show that
felt more about the advocacy than a comedy. Let's have
a more younger, warm, Jimmy Fallon esque comedy show, which
might have worked if this were Jeb Bush against Hillary Clinton,
like that might have actually worked. But the Trump moment,
like would let him been retired if you even know
when the Trump was coming this year? So I feel

(18:17):
like the reason it feels like that moment has a
messages a because our regular voices like Stewart and let
him in are gone. But be the reason they're gone
is because it did feel like that the juice was
getting squeezed. We were going to have a Hillary Clinton
Jeb Bush president, and they're like, I can't do enough exactly.
So then Trump happens, And so I think to us,

(18:38):
we feel that we're used to having a Stewart there
and let him in there, and or an old Colbert there,
and because they didn't know this was coming, and so
I feel like people have come in and and filled
the void. But I do think it is forgotten that
at the end of Stewart's run, people are like, yeah,
you know what, it's probably time alright, So I think

(18:58):
it's time for us to take a break. I will
say just two additional things before we take this break.
One is that, um, I believe that we agree and
we will talk to Mo Ryan about this, but I
think we agree that Samantha b has really, like you know,
every show takes a little while to get its feet,
but she is on fire right now and she I think,
you know, it's particularly given the nature of this moment,

(19:21):
the things that are in the air, the things that
we're talking about, the depredations of Donald Trump, it's really
essential that there will be some woman who is doing
the kind of comedy that she's doing, and she is
doing it and doing it very well, and the timing
she had enough time to get the kinks out of
her show. She has some very talented people working there,
are a couple of whom have worked previously at Bloomberg
Politics in fact, and she she's really at just the

(19:43):
right moment. She's really hit her stride and she's just
kicking acid taking totally. Um. So we'll talk about that
with Moe. The other thing I always want to say
is uh, well, um, it's a post baseball postseason without
the Cardinals. It's feeling about that. Well, you know, listen,
my I have to keep remembering that my son loves

(20:04):
the swing, does not want to get off the swing.
But the fact is, even though you are in fact
he's great on the swing and may belong on the swing,
everybody has to get a turn. As much as I
would love to, everybody gets gets a swing on turn
in the swing. So I will convince I'm having a
much harder time but the Cardinals not being in the
in the postseason as I am, with not only the
Cubs continuing to win in the Cup in the postseason,

(20:27):
but being everybody's favorite. I was warned this way. Yeah,
I know this is hard for you. Two thousand four,
two thousand four. No one's gonna admit this now. But everybody,
everybody that that hated the Reds hates the Red Sox
now and hates the Patriots and hates all that stuff
now they love Video four Red Sox. But you wait,
you think Red Sox fans were bad, you wait to

(20:47):
see what happens with the Cubs in the world. You
will all of you will regret they're gonna try to
be jamming like deep dish pizzas down your gullet. You
are talking to a Cardinals fan, to be fair, but
you know, Schools Cargo and I like Chicago, I'm not
I'm not a Cubs fan. I'm interested. It would be
kind of good, I think for the game for them
to make the World Series. And I'm I'm you know,
I don't have you know, my team's three teams that

(21:09):
I you know, my my American League team, the Red
Sox out, very sad, Big Poppy not making another World Series.
I'm sad about that, but that was clearly not their year.
The Giants, UM now out my my National League team,
um incredible victory by the Cubs in the ninth thinning,
the night thinning of their of their problem Giants all year. Yeah,

(21:30):
no fucking closer, closer. And of course the Mets, which
is kind of like my New York team, and I'm
kind of like about and again not that that team
did not deserve to go further. So we're now you know,
you know, I'm I'm kind of like on the trupe
Cubs train just at least to get to the World
Series because I think it would be good for them
to do that. And but I do have to say
to you about the fact the Cardinals are in the
in the playoffs, understand And with that, with that, I say,

(21:53):
I'm John Hyleman, and your I'm I'm a recently flubbed
at Will. Yeah, that's what it is. And we are
doing the Culture Caucus Bloomberg Politics, Politics and Culture podcast. Will.
You can find this podcast where on Bloomberg Politics dot
com of course, and also on iTunes sound cloud to
give us a nice view on iTunes and we'll find
the show. And when we're come back, we're gonna be

(22:15):
talking to Mo Ryan from Variety and that's going to
kick asst. So we're back, Hey, Will, We're back. And
you know what's great about being back. What's great about
being back is that we get to stop talking to

(22:36):
each other. We get to talk to another one of
our fabulous, incredible, brilliant, wonderful guests, in this case Maureen Ryan,
who is the I think maybe the best television writer
in America. You know, she made her name I think
at least came to my attention when she was at
Huffington Post, where she was for how many years, Mo oh,
five glorious years, five glorious years cranking it out under

(22:56):
in the Ariana Charnel House and now has moved on
to the more esteemed and and and venerable and and
and high impact world of Hollywood trade. She's the Variety
TV critic, par excellents. I know there are other TV
critics of Variety, but you are the TV critic, I
mean the one. Well, I like this intro. Can you
please continue? You don't have to say anything. We're just

(23:17):
gonna praise you for the next morning. That would be great.
I love this podcast, is my favorite. Okay, So here's
the thing. Okay, Well and I have been talking about
SNL and we're obsessed, as one is. And we've talked
over the course of the life of this podcast about
about late night UH and the ups and downs of
of some of the late night programs, some of which
you are thriving, some which are not thriving. But SNL

(23:38):
coming back to UH start its fall season in the
midst of by far the most hallucinatory, crazy, distressing, appalling,
incredible presidential campaign of any of our lifetimes. Just so
you're the TV critic and you turn on your TV
to watch the season premiere, and here comes Alec Baldwin
doing his Trump, and you thought what I thought it was?

(24:01):
I mean, nothing could be stranger. I mean, in a
weird way, you would almost think, why not have like
any anyone in America play Trump? Because it's like that
everything is so surreal right now that that like any
actor I'm sure would have been like you could have
put I don't know, um, Jennifer Lawrence, just everything seems

(24:21):
to be designed to make things big and broad and
kind of hallucinatory. As you said, I thought. I mean,
I think I liked aspects of his performance and other
aspects not so much. I think the physicality, I think
there was a little bit like kind of too overly broad.
But I think he gets at something about the guy's
ego that is important. But one of the things that

(24:43):
is interesting to me too's sort of a long time
satur night live view or you know, I was watching it,
you know, for decades basically since it began, and I
think that it's interesting that they don't have someone in
their cast who can do a Trump, you know, which
was they struggled for a long time to have someone
who could do a Mamma, and that really kind of
was their stock in trade. You know. Obviously they had

(25:04):
Tina face is uh Sarah palin Um, but that was
when she had a different job like that. It wasn't
her day job. And so I think Saturda Night Live
is kind of contending with a lot at this moment.
It's a hugely strange election. I just don't think that
there's ever been a weirder election in American history. I
don't think, certainly, not in my lifetime. There's a ton

(25:26):
more competition in the late night arena and the comedy
late night kind of wars are very, very red hot
right now. And you know, they do have a young cast,
like a fairly um. A lot of the cast members
are new, and I think a number of them are great.
One interesting thing is that they're really heavily reliant on
their female talent at the moment, which has certainly not

(25:47):
always been the case with Surtura Night Live. But then
that leaves them kind of vulnerable to the point where
they have to have in you know, Alec Baldwin come
in as Trump, which is kind of like a big
you know, it's kind of stunt casting, but I understand
the reasons for it. Yeah. I always think of when
Saturday Life was really peaking um on this political stuff partic.

(26:09):
I really feel like two thousand and eight when it
felt like they were actually doing not only doing something
amazing because you, as you point out, Tina Fey was
not actually on the show, but I think I remember
seeing the interview with Lauren Michaels where he said, yeah,
but the audience like we actually I think they had
planned on someone else playing her, but the audience just
sort of cast that role for them, and she touldn't
have to be so perfect for that. But the thing
about that was that felt cutting and it felt like

(26:31):
they were getting away with something. I remember that crazy
moment three days before the before election day when Tina
Fey literally with John McCain sitting right next to her,
turns over and and kind of undermines him and and
runs with that and she became the character. It felt
like this high wire act that now I wonder if
part of the reason they were able to pull that
off it's because there weren't many other places to look

(26:53):
like at the time, it felt like urgent in important,
and now it's like, well, yeah, by the time I
get to Saturday Night I've I've seen I've seen so
many people do this stuff. I agree. I mean, there
were a lot of articles I seem to recall around then.
You know, is that is Saturday Night Live going to
change the course of the election? And you would even
see some stuff like that around the time of the

(27:13):
Daily Show, um in two thousand and four and two
thousand eight, you know, are they is there not an
undue influence? But like, is this become this massively influential
thing that's sort of deciding not deciding the course, but
sort of directing where the conversation is going. And it's
really interesting to see that the Daily Show is not

(27:33):
really I mean to me, I could I could be wrong,
but it's not really as much in the conversation as say,
Samantha B with full frontal. Uh, Saturday Night Live is
still in the mix, but again, as you say, not
really driving the conversation so much as reacting to it
and trying to catch up to it in many ways.
But you know, Samantha B is doing good stuff. Even

(27:54):
Stephen Colbert has done some some interesting stuff and is
trying to remain relevant with that sort of political content.
Everyone's really throwing their hat into the ring. You've even
had Jimmy Fallon with kind of the opposite of what
you want, which is getting a lot of negative press
for not not making the most of a candidate appearance

(28:16):
on the show and in fact kind of seeming like
he was again being reactive to the situation, not playing
with it in a comedic way. He just letting Trump
burnish his reputation as you know, the eccentric uncle, as
opposed to like, you know, a terrifying dude, which is
how many people regard him. Yeah, you should also try
to keep your hands out of Donal Trump's hair because

(28:36):
you might never come back. You when you tell well,
or when you take your hand out, you might like
realize you've lost a finger in there is there something
to the idea that these comedy shows are kind of
reflecting what's going on in media in general, in the
notion that's out alive, and I think Jimmy Fallon coming
from that world. There is this kind of instinctive notion
that they have that like, hey, we skewer all sides

(28:58):
and we play it down the middle, and we go
after Hillary and we go after Trump, and whereas someone
like Samantha b or John Oliver, of course, John Stewart
is hey day. It was more aggressively partisan in a
way that I think the audience once more of. Now. Yeah,
I think that really this election has done a lot,
and it's exposed you know, uh, elements of racism in

(29:23):
the society that we I think probably would have preferred
not to talk about or think about. You know that
those currents were already there, but it's brought that forward
all obviously elements of sexism that you know, we don't
even need to go into. It was the last week
has been a roller coaster in that regard um. But
also it's exposed in a really major way the shortcomings

(29:44):
of the media. And I can tell you from from
personal experience that you know, writing about Night one of
the Republican National Convention, one of my colleagues was writing
about it, and before she was even done writing, that's
when it sort of started to emerge that Melania Trump's
speech was partly plagiarized. So like it becomes overwhelming for

(30:04):
either individuals or the media as a whole. There's so
much coming at people, and you know, it's been hard
for people to keep up and to kind of keep
a sense of proportion. But I do think you make
a good point that the both sides is um that
kind of ruled I think comedy to some degree, and
the news media itself has been exposed and now people

(30:27):
are saying, I want a point of view, And I
would argue that the reason that um, the Sarah Pale
and impression made a great was historic. The Gerald Ford
uh impression going way back and starting that life's history
was great. Um, it was because those had a point
of view and that there was a really strong framing

(30:48):
to what they were doing with those characters, those interpretations
of those politicians. And so I think if you go
the gentle both sides route with your comedy, it can
just lead to kind of averag nous honestly, and in
a in a competitive environment, that's not great. But I think,
you know, there's just people do want more of an

(31:10):
informed analysis or an informed point of view rather than
just isn't it all crazy? I think that things are
too charged at the moment for that approach to really
work on a ongoing basis. Yeah, totally. There's a bunch
of things to say to unpack about the various things
we've just talked about. So I'm gonna try to unpack
them and we'll dig a little deeper on some of

(31:31):
these things. Right First, you mentioned that the female cast
at Saturday Live is is pretty strong right now and
they rely a lot on them. So I just talk
a little bit of in the context of what you've
just been saying and what we've just been saying, talk
a little bit about Kate McKinnon and her portrayal of
Hillary Clinton and whether you think that, I mean, I
agree with you about Alec. I mean, he's he's he's

(31:54):
savage towards Trump. It has a point of view, for sure,
but it's I think a little bit undercut by the
stunt casting quality of it. Right. So, Yeah, there's something
about how he sticks out his up is but lower
lip that just to me is like it's too much
to think back to Chevy Chase. He looked nothing like
the man he was imitating, Gerald Ford, but there was

(32:15):
something about the attitude. I definitely think that, Uh, there's
no doubt to me that Kate McKinnon is one of
the standouts of the current cast of Sertain Night Live.
There's no doubt at all. And I definitely think that
she has a take on Hillary Clinton. It's not just
an imitation or an homage or a savage you know,

(32:37):
take it if there's something very considered going on there
that she she's able to convey that sense of frustration
kind of lurking underneath Hillary Clinton. And whether or not
you like her, I think that there's certainly the argument
to be made that she has every right to be frustrated.
You know, she's being essentially you know, iagine like a

(33:00):
clown car full of terrifying clowns, and that's who she's
running against. I think, to be honest, I think all
clowns are terrified. So that's that's that's true. She's she's
got a really interesting, i think, subtle take on the
character that makes it more funny because she's not really
pushing it in your face. I think that's really one

(33:21):
of the things that maybe one of the aspects of
the Alec Ball's. One thing that I don't like is
it's it's pretty broad, whereas Kate McKinnon is very measured
and considered and controlled, and that's really often the dig
at Hillary Clinton. But she's able to show enough other
elements of frustration and despair or even Glee at times
that you know, to see those edges peek out is

(33:43):
really funny the way that she does it. Um. I
don't know if this is something you wanted to talk about,
but I would actually love to know what you think
of weekend update. I just I do think that the
most recent update, um, you know, especially given everything that
had gone on on Friday with the Access Hollywood tape,
was was pretty good. It's going to patch over there,

(34:05):
I agree with that. I think it's I think it's
sort of patchy and lacks um and lacks edge and
knowing this and in a funny way you play to
the It's interesting I think about all of this is
that we live in this media stew right. So part
of the way in which we judge all of these
things are it's in the context in which some of
the people who have done things, what they've done before,
what they're doing now. So I think part of the

(34:26):
problem right now is that I think Seth Meyers is
doing a pretty good job at his show and being
political and being topical and being smart, and so part
of the reason why I think it's impossible to judge
the current team without to some extent being like well
that's not Seth Meyers, and I know what Seth Myers
is doing on another another screen and another time, so
they kind of they suffer by comparison. I'm not sure

(34:48):
if that's fair, but it is something I think that
happens in a lot of people's minds where you're like, man,
I really miss Seth. If only Seth was bringing the
high heat that he brings on his show over here
on that night live, it would be so much better.
I think John Oliver has probably done a little bit
of that too. Yeah, totally. You know, it's in a
way I wonder if it's exposed that we can update
format is like to like, even Seth Meyers segments are

(35:09):
now running ten or eleven minutes on one topic, and
and Oliver will go five minutes on something. So for
them to do like these short just a little quip,
but just a little here, ha ha, it doesn't feel probably,
And also frankly, they sometimes feel like a couple of
threat dudes on there, which I think is really not
necessarily matching the moment either. I agree with everything you said,
but I would also just argue that it's a week.

(35:31):
It's a week. The jokes are not that great. They're
just not that funny. And I think that there is
a whole like, well, everything's crazy Hillary is equally crazy
to Trump. Would I just think that that's not really
true honestly, and I think it makes for it's just
the whole, the whole. The writing for Weekend Update, to me,

(35:54):
is not the most incisive it could be. Especially I
feel like this is giving comedy writers, like, if it's
not feast for you right now, what are you even
doing in this profession? You know, giving you a lot
of material? Right. False equivalence is bad, is a general thing,
and it's bad in journalism, but it's in some ways
worse in comedy because there's a you know, I mean,
I don't mean to exempt my colleagues and myself from

(36:15):
occasionally practicing false equivalence, but I do think in comedy like,
if you don't have the point of view and you're
not just like really like pounding it, it just it
just becomes it becomes you're rich little. Yeah, there has
to be a sense of proportion, you know that. I
think absolutely is Hillary Clinton a flawed politician? Absolutely? Could
I could we sit here and talk for an hour

(36:37):
about what things she could have done better, easily, could
go two or three. That's not like every politician has
their flaws and there their problems, but this is like
normal you know, not you know politician with normal politician problems,
or maybe you know more than most because she's been
in the public eye for longer than most versus like

(36:58):
gammera trying to just or the city City. There's if
you don't have a sense of proportion about your comedy,
I mean, you think a lot of good comedy is
driven by a sense of injustice or a sense of anger,
something really animating. And I really think that that's where
your frat boy comment kind of to me strikes home,
because it does not feel like this is something that

(37:21):
they take all that personally or have strong feelings about.
It just seems like, well, some stuff happened. What's up, buddy?
You know it doesn't it just you know, you look
across any other late night show and there's more of
a sense of urgency, and most of them there's more
of a sense of pointedness. I mean, if I'm over
on CBS and watching Stephen Colbert on one of the

(37:43):
most widely watched mainstream late night shows, making you know,
doing a normal intro routine to his nightly show, but
with some savage jokes in there. Um that to me
like feels off if Saturday Night Live is not quite
up in that league at that at this moment, kind
of the last things I know, I've got to go,
We've when you kind of we talked about like those

(38:06):
that kind of the frat guys on we can update.
To me, that speaks to if there's been one star
I think has emerged from this season, it's probably been
Samantha By I think so absolutely, and she as the
thing that people you know, I hope that she doesn't
get sort of dismissed as well. She's just angry, you know,
she's just ranting. I think that that to me, what

(38:28):
she brought over from the Daily Show is a really
strong frame. You know. The Daily Show was absolutely brilliant
at finding the perfect clip or the perfect quote. They
had a thesis to make and they defended it with
facts like that's really ultimately makes for good journalism, not
just you have um a through line to your article

(38:48):
or your your video or whatever, but they're you're supporting it,
You're making an argument, you're making a case. The Daily
Show did that really well. And I think that's what
she has uh so much of is the idea that
we've done some digging, we've got a point of view,
we've got a reason that you should you know, not
like this one politician. Here's here, here's all the research

(39:09):
we did, his actual positions, things he's done, and said,
there's something there to me that feels very substantial behind
like that's her stick. She certainly gets a lot of
mileage out of that energy of just kind of like
being like what is going on? And I love it.
I mean the way that she plays that it's actually
really entertaining, but there's there's something behind it, and I
think that that's why she's made a huge impression. Yeah,

(39:31):
I think though that I'll just say that I think that,
like I agree with you, it would be unfortunate. I
first of all, love Samantha b Second of all, um,
I think it's true that it would be unfortunate if
it was dismissed as she's just angry. But again, speaking
just for myself, I think that the feminine feminine slash
feminist rage is actually part of her strength. And while

(39:53):
I while I would want to just be oh, she's
an angry woman, but you know, to to in any
way move away from acknowledging that that's so much the
power of it. I mean, when she did her thing
the other night, um, on Monday, I believe when she
did her a vagina monologue, UM, it was just killer
and the whole that actually, the whole show is killer.
Everything she did that night in the wake of the

(40:14):
access Hollywood tapes was just fantastic and funny on social media,
saying I can't wait to see what Samby is going
to do, right, I mean, and that again, to make
the obvious point, the reason it was so great was
that it was both. It was funny angry, Um pointed,
but also it was a woman's point of view, and
she's the strongest female voice out there right now. And

(40:36):
it's a lot to be angry about, yes, and a
lot to be angry about, especially in this moment. And
I would just say, you know, it made me think
something I've thought for now for a year. Watching I
will say, I don't know how you feel more about
these two people, but watching Larry Wilmore fail and I
think he failed, and watching Trevor Noah fail and he's
not yet failed he's not yet being fired. But I
think they both, you know, have been a giant stepped

(40:59):
down from their predecessors. And you know, the obviously the
Comedy Central franchise wanted to look at diversity. They decided
to look at diversity in a certain way. Again, legitimate choice,
legitimate choices. But you kind of looked at both. You
look at their and when I think, is their their
joint failure and say to yourself, man, like Sambi would
have been a pretty good choice for that gig, like

(41:19):
you kind of mistake not to keep her there? Yeah, no,
no doubt. I mean, I think what's great about right now?
And just to link it to sort of my broader
job as a TV critic, you know, according to various statistics,
they're going to be four and thirty scripted shows this year,
So you have to stand out. You have to have
that difference, and it can't just be a gimmicky difference.
There has to be something to it, you know, And

(41:40):
I think that that's one of the great things about
right now is that Samantha b is getting a no
holds barred platform to do her particular take. And that's
really smart and I that's you know she's not watering
it down to be some other version of her her
point of view, and I think that's one of the
reasons it's succeeding in a very very crowded media land escape.

(42:01):
As far as The Daily Show, I've had a problem
with um Trevor Noah from the start. I think he
does a collection of medium stand up jokes, but that
is not what the Daily Show is known for. As
we were saying before, it's got it's when it's good,
when it's on fire. It's got this really strong narrative
frame and point of view, and even if you disagreed

(42:22):
with it, it gave you something to fight against, Whereas
I don't find that with Noah. I would argue, though,
this is my stealth take on The Daily Show that
I need to write up at some point, there's a
really funny guy on The Daily Show right now and
his name is Roy Wood Jr. Every time he's on,
he cracks me up. I mean, they have they have
actually a pretty good stable of correspondence at the moment

(42:43):
who far outshine Trevor no at the moment, who just
has a very amiable presence. And boy, you know, I
understand that some people want that. That's one reason foul
And is popular. But I just don't think it works
for that show. I would like to see someone else
in their stable now just promoted. He's he's I think
his biggest problem is that, and this is not is

(43:04):
that he's just not smart enough about American politics and
and he's not that interested in politics, and like the
crazy thing. I know some people who work on that show,
and I've been on the show with Trevor, nice guy,
but I think you know, he did he did not
come into that job expecting that he was going to
find himself in the middle of not just a presidential election,
but this particular presidential election, and his lack of knowledge

(43:26):
about American politics. Again, I'm not trying to be mean.
I'm just trying to say, like, he's not you know,
this was an election that called for someone who was
really well versed in American politics and had a really
strong point of view. And he might actually be an
okay host of the Daily Show when we get past
this election, but in this election context, when people are
looking for sophistication, savvy and a really strong point of view,

(43:47):
he's to bring any of those things meant not to
you know, he's not an American. You know, if he
didn't bring any of those things to the job. And
I think he was just still equipped for this moment.
I think, I think that's a good point. Awesome, that's
got more. Ryan to Sam a good point. You've got
a good review. I feel like I feel like it's
probably this is like the moment to say goodbye. So
just just I gave her an incredible introduction. She's now

(44:08):
giving me a little payback there. She said good point,
and I'm like, Okay, that's good, that's great, and she
liked my fact. Guys think like, yeah, we're doing awesome.
We both do good with MO. That's incredible. Hey, Mo,
you can come back sometime. I would love to please
invite me back. It was a great pleasure. Um Mo, Ryan,
who is awesome and writes for Variety, and anybody who
doesn't subscribe to Variety of an idiot to begin with.
But if you don't subscribe to Variety and don't immediately

(44:31):
go and look at MO the first time you pick
it up or the first time you go online and
clicking that U r L, you're you're like beyond an idiot,
You're a mora I will personally pummel you across the
head and face and neck right right, Okay, we gotta
go out. This is all very reasonable. Keep going, uh, Marian,
thank you very much for being on the show. Well, um,
it's time for us to go. I'm John Hoyman, and
your who again, I believe I'm told I'm Willie and
this is the end of the Culture Caucus. We'll see

(44:53):
you back here again the next time. Will again remind
everybody where they can find this podcast. Of course, you
can find a m Bloomberg politics dot com. You also
subscribe to us on iTunes SoundCloud. Please while you're on iTunes,
give us a nice review and even helps people find
the show. And then let's us see all the nice
things you said about It's like Moran, which report apparently
is really important to us. Okay, bye bye and bye bonds.

(45:15):
H