Episode 7: Talking Baseball, And Politics, With Joe Buck

John Heilemann and Will Leitch look at baseball in the year 2016, including its current cultural conflict, which bears more than a passing resemblance to the forces behind Donald Trump's campaign. Includes an interview with Fox Sports baseball and football broadcaster Joe Buck.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Hey fans, friends, family, assorted random listeners who have been

(00:22):
to double upon this podcast. We are here with the
latest installment of Culture Caucus. That's Bloomberg Politics is podcast
on the intersection of politics and culture. I'm John Hilman
and your Will Leach. I am Will Leach. That is
who I am. Oh, that's Will Leach. That's who you are,
and we are here to bring you another addition to
Culture Caucus. Today, we're gonna be talking about America's game,

(00:42):
America's pastime, the national pastime baseball, and it's connection to
a whole bunch of really interesting political, social, and cultural phenomena,
and how the changes that are going on in baseball
in the reaction of those changes mirror things that are
happening to the presidential campaign. Later on in this podcast,
we're gonna be bringing in to talk about such topics
the Great Joe buck Um from Fox Sports, a man

(01:06):
who has been calling baseball games and football games on
Fox Sports, Big Huge Games, World Series, Super Bowls on
football and baseball since he was like eight years old.
I don't know he's a pal yours, right, Well, yes,
I of course I'm I am like all right thinking
Americans and a Cardinals fan. So I grew up watching
Jack Buck. His father was one of my heroes growing up.

(01:28):
And so Joe Buck got the job first broadcasting with
the Cardinals when he was in his early twenties, and
I think it was it was dif and he was
I have to say, instantly good. He was instantly good,
So we were. It was not a surprise when he
when he took over and became a big national star.
So yes, I'm very honored to have him on. Uh
and uh he is. I can't give anybody better to

(01:48):
talk about baseball's place in the national concerts than a
guy that is the voice of baseball to the national
in the national conversation. Alright, so we're gonna be getting
on a Joe Buck in a few minutes. But let's first, well,
let's turn to the topic at hand. The rand old game,
America's game, America's pastime, baseball, Baseball. It's back. It's back.
It's officially back. Poor New Yorkers, all they wanted to

(02:09):
do was what's their Yankees on their first day their
game got rained out in their first game. But other
than that, baseball is back. Baseball is full bore. We
have the the great the old Roger Hornsby line of
what him, what he did during the winter. He set
out and looked at the window and waited for it
to be springk in so you can play baseball. Now
it's here, it's back, there's actual baseball. I could not

(02:29):
possibly be happier. It's amazing to me, Will that you've
only been out of this city for like what seems
like like a New York minute, and you've already lost
so lost, lost touch with the city used to live
in so completely that you think that this is not
now basically a Mets town, you know, like as if
anybody gives a flying funk about the Yankees, like you know,
it is a is temporarily a Mets town. No one

(02:50):
in this town, No one in this town like cares
about the Yankees. The Yankees. Fuck the Yankees. I'll say
it again, fuck Yankees. And yes, Alex, we are going
to have this in the podcast. So today we're gonna
talk about baseball and the changing face of baseball and
what it might say about our politics and the and
the analogies the parallels between what's going on in baseball

(03:11):
and what's going on in the presidential campaign. So, you know,
I want to the maybe the biggest thing that's happened
in baseball, um, socio, culturally, demographically in the course of
our lifetimes as as men of a certain age, has
been the browning of baseball. Right, the fact that baseball
has become a game that's dominated um by Latin players,

(03:31):
players from the Dominican Republic, players from Puerto Rico, players
from South America, players increasingly from Cuba. Um. They're not
that there are that many, but they're gonna be a
lot more coming down the pike, obviously now that we
haven't a normalized relationship with Cuba. So I want you
to talk, Will, just to start things off about an episode,
a thing that occurred last season in the postseason. I

(03:53):
believe that in your mind, at least I know, is
symbolic of and symptomatic of a kind of une ease,
a kind of a kind of generational discomfort that older
generations of both baseball players and people involved in baseball
at the at the professional level, and also a lot

(04:13):
of fans have with the way in which the game
has changed. Yes, so Jose Bautista, who is a right
fielder for the Toronto Blue Jays. He is one of
the more exciting players in baseball. He's a big home
run hitter. He's very very powerful, very strong. He hit
a home run. He's fund the demican Republic, and he
hit a home run against the Texas Rangers that can

(04:36):
only be described as psychologically violent. It was, you know,
there had been a very It was in the evening.
It was particularly crazy inning where in the top half
of the inning a run hit scored because the ball
thrown back to the picture had hit a player's bat,
and all sorts of madness was going on. It was
a deciding game. It was just a crazy, crazy, crazy situation.

(05:00):
And then Jose Bautista hits this massive three run homer
and it was It was a bomb, and it was.
There are certain home runs in baseball history. I am.
This will come up a couple of times, but I'm
a Cardinals fan, and I think probably the only one
I can remember homer and I can remember, much to
America's dismay, I think anymore, um was probably Albert Pules's

(05:24):
home run off Brad Lidge in the two thousand five
National Championship Series, the one where famously George and Barbara
Bush looked like they were about to cry behind home plate. Uh,
that's the only homer I can remember that was really
just this dick measuring homer. It's really the only way
to look at just this very much. So. What Bautista did, though,

(05:44):
was he hit the homer. And you know, baseball as
a sport that for years and years and years, there's
been a culture of hiding your excitement about the game.
If you do something great, you're supposed to. If a
pitcher makes like a great pitch and strikes the guy,
is that guy out, you'll often, you almost always will
see them put their glove over their face, east specifically
because they do not want to be seen as if
they were showing up the other player, and so they

(06:05):
hold that emotion in. Bautista did not do that. He
hit the ball, He hit the home run, and then
while the ball was still a launch launching, he took
his back and just flung it like playing it like
fifteen twenty feet away and just stared and admired this
amazing thing that he had just done. Now, this was
a fans went nuts over this. People loved it. There's

(06:25):
actually a statue they're building in Toronto of of his
pose in this moment. It's just of the but yeah, yeah,
I don't know how they're going to suspend the bat
in the air, but they have him in his stance.
It's this very iconic moment, but is also kind of
against the way baseball has generally been playing and generally
been celebrated. So Goose Gossage, who is a Hall of Famer,

(06:46):
he played, He was a picture for the New York
Kinkies and San Diego Pantres and every day old time
very much an old school, old time baseball player. Closer
Rich Goose Rich Goose Gossage UM a closer from the
hallowed um celebrated Yankees teams in the nineties seventies. Yes,
and he said he called Batista a disgrace to the game.

(07:08):
He said, he's actually a fucking disgrace to the game.
If I may quote him accurately. He's always quote people accurately,
will especially if it involves profanity on this podcast. Yes, Yes,
and he said that he also called said nerds were
turning baseball into a joke. Uh. And he is indicative
of what I find a very fascinating cultural moment in baseball,
in the idea that this is a game that has

(07:31):
you know, I think you get people try to act
that baseball has somehow Baseball is certainly less nationally popular
than it used to be. That if you go buy
a television ratings idea there now, I would argue that
there are there are actually more people watching baseball than
any other time in human history. It's just they're not
all watching it at once in the World Series, the
way they watched the Super Bowl at once, or the
way they watch the NBA Finals as much. But certainly

(07:53):
baseball there's a sense that baseball has fallen in the
cultural consensus a little bit in the way that as
opposed to say, the fifties of the sixties. Well, one
of the things that baseball has really tried to do
is they have this influx of all of these young players.
You have Bryce Harper, you have Mike Trout, you have
Close Korea, and they are these young, exciting players, often
Latino players, who are exuberant and our fun. Bryce Harper
gave an interview in ESPN magazine saying baseball is tired.

(08:16):
We need to have fun, We need to do more.
These these are more be a more exciting game. We
need to show some emotion. And that while it is
exciting for the young player and after the after the
young fan that baseball has been trying to get after
is caused a very clear rift among your traditional baseball fan,
among your old time baseball player, claiming that this game

(08:38):
is somehow has lost its moorings and and it is
it is a disgrace, like like Gossage had said. So
that that's what's interesting about what the place that baseball
is in now is they are trying to go after
these younger fans and these more engaged who like the
emotion of the game, and frankly after Latino fans, who
are are really not only if one of the largest

(09:01):
growing fan base fan bases, but one of the largest
population growing populations in the country. They've been marketing a
lot more in that direction, and you're seeing more and more,
and this is what we'll get into the analogy on this.
We're seeing more and more a lot of older, white,
often Southern players and fans rejecting and not liking the
direction of the game is taking right and and like

(09:23):
at the core of this, I mean like we're kind
of cut, kind of trying to cut through the the
clutter here and get right to the point. Right. The
question that it raises is, you know, whether this is
the discussion of of decorum and the discussion of um,
of of behaving in a classy way or what what
those who don't like what Batista and what others have done,

(09:44):
whether that is really just code for we don't like
you because you're brown, right, I mean, that's kind of
the issue. I mean, and again, I'm you know, one
of the things I'm always reminded of here is you
know that period of time in the NBA where you know,
Alan Iverson and a number of other pulp pures, a
bunch of other African American ayers who had a certain
kind of swagger, um and we're a little bit who
seemed like they were, uh brought a kind of downtown

(10:06):
swagger to the game where you would see white fans
who would diss them and trash them for various reasons
related to the fact that while it's just not classy,
it's not sportsmanlike. I don't like the way they carry themselves,
when actually what they were kind of uncomfortable with was
the notion that like there was a certain kind of
of out front kind of urban blackness to the way
in which they carried themselves that people just found uncomfortable,

(10:26):
especially white people found uncomfortable. So the question here, it
seems to me, and we can talk about the politics
of this in a second and the ways in which
this kind of mirrors various things that are going on
more broadly in our politics, But the question is just
to dispense with this, is it your contention? Is that
your belief that what's really going on here is you've
got a kind of revanteism among the kind of white

(10:47):
again Southern Western uh fan base of the baseball That
basically is, you can't come out and say, I don't
like the fact that this game is like now filled
with a bunch of people who don't speak our language
and are from uh, these Latin American countries, and I
don't like the way this looks, and I'm uncomfortable with
it because basically they're either not racist necessarily although in
some cases they probably are, but are kind of racially uh,

(11:09):
they're they're there. It's not they're racist, but that they're
uncomfortable with with with the new diversity that's reflected on
the field. And in the same way that again we'll
talk about this more broadly here, but the way that
said the same as kind of people and in some
instances are uncomfortable with the increasing diversity in America. So
is that your view that the that there's just a
subterranean racial component to this that's driving it. I do.

(11:31):
I I think, you know, it's partly racial and of
course cultural in a lot of ways in the idea,
like there have been Dominican players throughout baseball, throughout baseball history.
Certainly you know Orlando Cepeda was was one of was
the great players in one of my favorite Cardio Kings,
Roberto Clemente, like all the there's been great Latino players
throughout baseball history. They've not been the majority, however, and
I think you're seeing more and more of that, you know,

(11:54):
the the and I think that there is a notion,
not to put too far in the point on it,
but I think there is a notion. This is where
the analogy comes in. I think there is a make
Baseball Great Again sort of a movement that that you see, uh,
there is a similarity between the people the things that

(12:15):
you hear people saying that our Trump voters are at
a Trump rally, the idea that something about America has
been lost, about something there is a change that is
that has made this place or this thing that I
love different in a way that I feel like something
has been lost. I think it's undeniable when you hear
Goose Gossage and guys like that saying that Chipper Jones

(12:37):
even you know Chipper Jones, uh a recently retired players
for the Lanta Braves who will be in the Hall
of Fame almost almost certainly on the first ballot when
he comes out. You've heard him talk a lot about this,
about the idea, about the idea that that you know,
he does not like he's ripped on. Yes, he's ripped
on a lot. You know. The notion to me, Puig
is a really interesting flashpoint on this because he was

(12:58):
a Cuban player. He came in had never really like
he he had no idea, what the if he knew
anyone anything about baseball. It's maybe that Jay Z had
the New York Yankees hat. But the idea that there
are these cultural norms or or how you know, the
how all these ways the baseball was supposed to be
playing the right way the baseball was supposed to go.
He couldn't have known any of that. He was almost

(13:19):
almost quite literally, fresh off a boat from Cuba. And
he shows up, and he plays the game with xuberants
and joy and excitement, and almost immediately was vivisected by
not only the baseball community, but but the baseball press
and and you know, and and his teammates even a
lot of ways. And I think there are certain reasons
for that are beyond, go beyond just just cultural differences.

(13:40):
But I do think that that is I think an
underlying theme to this discussion is the idea baseball used
to be like this, now it is like this, and
I am uncomfortable with that in a way that I
don't think is entirely dissimilar than what you see from
from a certain Trump voter base, right. I mean, you
got like this kind of there's this pining for the

(14:00):
good old days, right, the good old days. Uh, we're gold.
We we got to get back to the good old
days in America. And the good old days were the
days um which no one says explicitly, but the good
old days in America were the period of time before
the Voting Rights Act was passed, before there was a
full franchise for African Americans in the country, where schools
were largely segregated, where you know, uh, we're where the

(14:21):
where minorities kind of kept to their place. Even though
people again don't come out and say it quite that way,
but the good old days were the days in which, uh,
in which America was not in the kind of flux
that it's in right now and not headed towards being
majority minority population, when there was a lot less of
that kind of social dislocation, in which, not incidentally, when
America didn't have an African American president. So there's certainly

(14:43):
a lot of that. I think that's true, And I
think one good thought experiment the context of baseball would
be to ask this question. And you're much more professionally.
I mean, you know, I'm a huge baseball fan and
a huge sports fan, but I don't follow it in
a professional way and the way you do will. So
my question to you is this the kind of people,
the goose Gossages of the world, who get who got
upset about Jose Bautista and others who, whether it's Puigue

(15:06):
or others who behave in ways that they consider uh
to be somehow uh not sufficiently classy, not sufficiently respectful
of the game's traditions. Do those same people also get
upset about Bryce Harper? Because you know, Bryce Harper, who
plays further Washington National, is one of the most talented
young players in the league, maybe the most talented young
player in the league. He's a bat flipper, you know,

(15:26):
he's a he's ah an arrogant, uh in your face, uh,
exuberant kind of player. Uh. Does he raise the hackles
of of the white old guard in baseball in the
same way that Bautista at al do, Uh somewhat somewhat.
I think that's fair. Though Harper in particular, You know,
Harper is not only an outgoing player, but is a

(15:48):
brash we need He will actually say explicitly baseball is
tired and boring and I'm trying to make it exciting.
So you know, you almost wonder, like Bautista has never
said that, like, yes, that they they they're they're The
thing that rankles old time players about them is almost
something inherent in the way that they play. Harper has
a lot of entity as well against him, but a

(16:09):
lot of it is because he is just He's like, yep, Gossage,
you're full of it. You're full of it. This game
should be exciting, we should be going we should be
going nuts with this. I interviewed him for g Q
before he even came into the league, and he said,
you know, he was telling me, I'm gonna change this game.
I'm gonna make it more like the NBA. This is
gonna be. This is the way it's gonna be. And
so that, you know, uh, that is something that Harper

(16:31):
has taken in a way that I that is almost
transcends in any like. Harper takes that on himself and
he kind of enjoys it. Whereas a guy like Bautista
or a lot of these other younger players, it becomes
a players No one says players like Harper say this
because Harper is his own kind of unique character. But
they'll say players like Wig and Bautista and and so on.

(16:54):
And you know, I also think it leads to an
idea too of you know, Harper is so great and
Harper one interesting uh interesting kind of parallel is Harper
and Mike Trout, who are probably the two best players
in best young players in baseball right now, and they're
both already on Hall of Fame tracks. Trout is very
much an old school baseball guy. He's young, but he

(17:16):
is very much a I am very traditional. He says
nothing interesting, he talks about, He hustles out to a position.
He always talks about playing the game the right way.
And Trout has undeniably been accepted by baseball in a
way that Harper has not, and and and and I
only and you know, realize Harper had this amazing year
last year, but up until last year, even though he'd

(17:38):
been a very good player at very young age, was
seen as somewhat of a disappointment, and it was often
connected to how he had not matured yet and he
hadn't understood how you're supposed to play the game. And
so what was I think very refreshing in this cover
story in in ESPN magazine is now that he's a superstar,
he's not doing what baseball players generally do when they've

(17:59):
become superstar, as they turn around and become part of
the system, and they're like, yep, these young players don't
get it. He is now saying, Nope, I'm at the
peak of my powers and we need to change this
game a little bit. And Uh, to be honest, I
think it will work to a certain level. But I
also think a lot of people are going to be
throwing up Bryce Harper this year. I think you'll see
that a lot, right, I'll be throwing in him. I
certainly if I'm on the mound anytime soon, I'll be

(18:20):
I'll be the delivering a little chin music in Bryce
Harper's direction. You know, I got our brilliant producer here,
Alex Trowbridge listening to you commenting about about the about
where we tried to talk about the the parallel with
the Trump voter and the old guard baseball fan pointed
out the kind of irony of the fact that, you know,
Trump is the ultimate bat flipper, you know, and so
you've got a kind of a sort of a funny thing.

(18:41):
You think of a lot of Trump voters who would
say things like, you know, Barack Obama, he's a show boat,
he's arrogant, he's egomaniacal. That guy, you know, I just
can't stand that guy. He's so self involved, he's so
completely uh into himself. He's just preening constantly from UH
from the White House. And yet they don't find any
of those qualities that they find unacceptable in Obama. They
don't find any of those things problematic and Trump. In fact,

(19:03):
they love those elements of Trump um. Which does make
you kind of question whether it's the things, whether those
things are really what they find objectionable, or whether there
might be slightly some other things they might find more
objectionable about Barack Obama UH than not just merely what
they claimed to be his egomaniacal uh self involvement. UM. Again,
as they sit there and praise Donald Trump UH as

(19:24):
being the man who gives voice to their frustrations and
and uh and and resentments and grievances um, the question
I have to ask you will about about Trump. Let's
just talk about this for a second. One of the
things I find so fascinating about about about Trump UM
in the context of baseball is the fact that there
are a bunch of owners of major league teams who
are who are rapidly, rapidly anti Trump um. You know.

(19:47):
One of them, of course, is Joe Ricketts, who owns
the Chicago Cubs. The Ricketts family does. And Ricketts has
become one of the main funders of the Stop Trump movement,
has given a bunch of money, uh to the superpack
that is trying to stop Trump getting the Republican nomination.
Just explained to me in your in your judgment, how
like the thing about the baseball ownership group, what are

(20:07):
the politics of of baseball owners broadly defined? And then
talk a little bit explicitly or more specifically, I mean
about about about the thing that Rickets represents, which is,
at least in some quarters of the baseball ownership world,
a virulent strain of conservative anti Trumpism. Yeah, they are
the The baseball ownership has always pretty much across the board,

(20:29):
always been a very conservative movement, but in a conservative
like Bush Fami like George W. Bush was infect an
owner and wanted to be Commissioner of baseball. Uh. And
so it's a very conservative group. But see, like I
think was it was another kind of conservative in that way.
They are appalled by Trump there too, the idea that
there would be there's been three people, mainly the owner

(20:51):
of St. Louis Cardinals, builder Wit, who was very close
friends with with George W. Bush, and and it's generally
considered Rob Manfred's number two. His mainly the new Comission.
Rob Banford his main leader among the ownership group. He
is a very mainstream old school conservative who who has
helped support some of the Niver Trump people. But the
two larger ones have been the the Arizona Diamondbacks. Randy Kendrick,

(21:13):
who's the wife of the Aza Diamonbacks owner, has said
that she is willing to lose fans to Arizona games
to help stop Trump from being president. But yeah, and
the cubsman in particular, Tom Rickets is the owner of
the Cubs. You know, it's funny because it's just a
couple of years ago. The Ricketts family was being criticized.
Just a few years ago, they were the ones who
were being criticized for putting together the Jeremiah Right ads

(21:34):
against Obama in two thousands twelve, the ones that were
encouraging Romney to use those. Now they are going after
Trump and you know, the the uh to the point
that Trump was so threatened by them that actually put
out a tweet saying, quote, I hear the Ricketts family,
who owns the Chicago Cubs are secretly spending money against me.
They better be careful. They have a lot to hide.
And that's a lot of that's from Marlene Ricketts, who

(21:54):
is the mother of Tom Rickets, the owner. She is
actually one of the main supporters of the of the
anti Trump hacked And it's funny to see, you know this,
the idea a couple of years ago, the idea that
the Cubs had had conservative owners was almost a problem
for the Cubs, and now it is. But they they
become this Trump like last stand against them. And it's

(22:16):
funny because you know, Trump himself, he's not really a
baseball guy. He's not connected to baseball in the way
that he's connected the football exect the football connected the boxing,
for example. But one fascinating thing about Trump it perhaps
inevitably he's a huge Pete Rose supporter, and that makes
it like there is a I think that's just on
the basis of I think that's just on the basis
of hair Will and they both have like really really

(22:39):
really interesting hair. The Venn diagram of people who think
who think Pete Rose should be reestated to baseball and
Trump voters. I suspect it probably has a lot across
close to um just to be clear, So the fact checkers,
the people that polit a fact and others who will
attack us. Here to be clear, Joe Ricketts is the
patron of the Ricketts family. Tom Rickets is the is

(22:59):
the is the one who runs the Cubs underneath. But
it's all his mom right right this, But it's all
Rickett's family money basically, and uh um, it's it is
fascinating that the ricketts Is have uh in one in
one election cycle, we're interested primarily in doing anything they
could to stop Barack Obama, and now in this cycle

(23:21):
are interested primarily in doing anything they can to stop
Donald Trump. That is a that's an interesting turnabout over
the course of four years for sure. Alright, so we're
gonna allow wrap this up and take a little break
and get onto Joe buck You know what will you
should probably tell people at this point. Where can you
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Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a very positive review.
It helps people find the podcast if you do that,

(23:43):
and you also find us on SoundCloud and of course
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This is episode I think this is episode seven, Episode seven.
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(24:04):
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(24:37):
back with the Culture Caucus Podcast. I'm John Hilman and
I am still Will Leach, and we have with us.
We're really honored, gratified, pleased, and and and flattered to
have with us today, the great Joe, Joseph Francis, Joe Buck, Joe,
how are you good? How are you? I don't get
the I don't get the middle name treatment all that often,

(24:58):
but it it makes me small. It was my dad's
middle name, it was my grandfather's middle name, and it's
my nickname. When I'm playing golf with my with my friends,
I am Franny on the golf course. So here to four,
you can just reference me as Franny and maybe I'll
get less crap on the internet that way. Well, just
because of the notion of lighten up Francis, I was
thinking we should call you Francis throughout the entire podcast,

(25:19):
but that work. Um uh So, Joe Will and I
have been talking on this podcast about the changing face
of Major League Baseball and the various kind of political, cultural,
social ramifications of that. Um, you know, you've been calling
baseball games for a long time. I mean you started
out in this business at an absurdly precocious place, very young, right,

(25:44):
So just just just talk about like the way in
which at a general foot level, the way in which
the game has the face of the game has changed,
and the discomfort that that has caused among uh the
old guard in major League Baseball. Yeah, I think there's
been a shift, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I don't think that it's a bad thing, and I'll

(26:05):
go into it. I don't I don't want to get
long winded and boring, which maybe I've already accomplished. But
I think when you think about back when I started,
which I did get started early in the early nineties,
it was a different It was a different looking game,
it was a different feeling game. It was a different
game on television, it was a different game nationally. Uh.

(26:25):
You know, my personal thought on this is that baseball
has become a real regional team by team uh feel.
And you know, we we deal with it at Fox
when we're doing a world series and you're doing a
world series between two of the smaller markets. I mean,
in those two markets, it's insane. I mean, there's nothing

(26:48):
bigger in the world, but beyond uh, it can be
a tough sell unless you get along series. And then
you think about the way you know, this this offseason
started and the war of words if if you can
have a one sided war between Goose Gossage and Jose Batista.
I thought Batista really took the high road and and

(27:10):
uh and really handled that well when Goose Gossage called
him out for the bat flip last year during October
and during the postseason. And yeah, I think back. You know,
it's hard to say back in the day, but it
is now. You know, it's been twenty plus years for
me broadcasting, even at Fox. Uh, it was a different game.
You know, the style was not in it. Uh. If

(27:32):
if you dared to step out of the middle lane
and showed a little personality or flair, it was almost
like a stopwatch started taking and you were waiting for
that guy to get knocked on his butt. And it
just I think there's room for both. And I don't
think Gossage is wrong for saying what he said. He
has every right to to say and feel how he feels,

(27:55):
and what he said is right within the realm for me,
and Batista has every right to do what he feels
he wants to do with a game. I think it's
it's wrong to rule out one side or the other.
There's room for the old school, there's room for the
new school. But there's no doubt there's been a shift
and uh and and it's a different looking game. And
I think in in five to ten years, it'll be

(28:17):
a different looking game than it is right now. Yeah,
a lot of this does feel like a generational on
one hands of generational thing, and that all of these
young players getting yelled at for showing too much exuberance. Now,
I fully expect them all when they are thirty four
and thirty five to be yelling at the young players.
And when they retire, yeah, yeah, I I think I've
even seen Patroon Martinez is really good about this. But
I've even seen like recently retired players say like, all

(28:38):
these kids today as if they weren't playing like three
years ago and so on. So you certainly everybody kind
of goes that way, but I also think there is
frankly a cultural aspect to it, particularly with the influx
of Latino players that you know that Tins you saw
this a lot with Quick I think in a lot
of ways, like when he came in. You know, this
was a guy that had never really played a high
level of organized baseball at all and came in and

(29:00):
when he hit a whole run, he did what I
think a lot of us would actually do when we
hit a home run, which would raise our arms in
the air and be very excited about it. And you know,
this is a game where people are encouraged to if
they have a moment of excitement to hide their face
in their glove. Lets the other team think they're showing
them up by expressing joy. Do you think that do
you think there's an element of that the idea that

(29:20):
you know, I think it seems like a lot of
the older players that tend to be more upset this frankly,
tend to be white or and or Southern, and a
lot of these younger players are Latino, are from perhaps
a culture where exuberance and showing excitement on the field
is maybe more common. Yeah, I think so. I would
agree with that. Um, I think you see it in
the World Baseball Classic, you know. And I we could

(29:43):
argue the value of that endeavor for a while, but
I think just to take the look in each dugout
when you have the Dominican Republic team, you know, doing
what they do, it it's like, my god, these guys
are actually having fun playing baseball. You if somebody hits
a home run and they're jumping over the front rail
of the dugout, and I love that. I love that

(30:07):
people show that they care that they just did something big.
I mean, fans are going nuts. Fans are going crazy,
and these are the guys that did it. And it's
not just a guy hitting the home run. It's a
guy's coming over the top rail or spilling out of
the dugout to welcome somebody back. And this isn't just
the walk off home run. This is you know, this
is a home run or a big hit during the
course of the game. I like that. I like a

(30:29):
little life, and I do, on some real level identify
with Bryce Harper, who's in his early twenties, who's as
big a talent as we've seen come along in a
long time, and just starting to refine it. Say, you know,
this can be a tired game, and tired is a
is a brutal word to assign to anything, let alone

(30:50):
a game that means so much to so many people.
And you know, showing some flair is is a good thing.
I think when you bring up peek, though, there's a
couple of distinctions there. I get the hit, a home run, raised,
the arms go around, you know, have some flair fired
it into the infield. Maybe dare a runner, but walking

(31:12):
out to your position at the at the beginning of
the happening where guys are actually waiting until he gets
out into right field, or you know, blowing a ball
that's bouncing out into right field and then kind of
loafing after it because he thinks that his arm will
make up for him not running. Uh. That that stuff
I think rubs teammates the wrong way. That's not an

(31:32):
old guard thing. There are teammates to get tired of
that stuff and say, come on, you know, it's sways
one thing. But hustle and desire or the look of
a guy who's really wanting to compete, that to me
is in a different category. Well, one thing I thought
was interesting about the Harper thing too. You know, this
is a cover of ESPN magazine, the Big Mobi Preview issue,

(31:54):
and it appeared to be almost a gauntlet throne like.
You know. I interviewed him for ESQ Fire before he joined,
before he was even in the majors, and he talked
about how I want to be like Lebron of baseball.
I want, I want. I wish players were more like
the NBA and you could dunk on a guy and
you could have some excitement. Is one thing for you know,
for a new player to come in and and and

(32:17):
you know, get used to the game in that way
and get accustomed to the game the way Harper is
this autumn is very not only a very brash guy,
very outgoing guy, but maybe one of the best two
or three players in baseball. And the for him to
come out and say that felt like a gauntlet throne.
And you know you you talked earlier about how sometimes
the challenge outside of a regional game, and I think
what Harper was trying to say is, well, maybe one

(32:39):
of the reasons that the people the game seems tired
a lot of people is we don't allow players to
enjoy themselves and have fun. Do you think a player
of his caliber can make a change in that or
is it or is it still just gonna be Now,
it's gonna be like now, Gosh is gonna go after
him and then and then other retired players will will
come after him that way. Do you think he can
make a change in that way? Yeah? I do. I
think he's that good it. I think he's He's the

(33:01):
kind of guy that and there are a handful of
him in the game still today. Ironically enough, Alex Rodriguez
is still in this category. To me, at least if
he is at the plate, you want to walk back
out of the kitchen and go into wherever the TV
is and watch his at bat and and Harper is
at the top of that list. He and Trout. I mean,

(33:22):
obviously they're they're the two best young players, but they
have that power to do that that excites me as
somebody who likes the game of baseball and who makes
his living inside of the game of baseball. I'm all
for it, you know, And I appreciate Harper doing that.
I had that that a copy of that ESPN the magazine,
and you know, it's got that g Q feel to it.

(33:44):
It's got to look at ME feel to it. And
a little bit of the NBA could go a long way,
you know. The the NBA has done a brilliant job
of marketing itself. And when you know, whether it's Lebron
James or even before him, Jordan's on the biggest games,
they came when they went off the air and you
didn't you didn't see the end of the broadcast until
you heard from Jordan's or now you don't see in

(34:07):
the playoffs if if the Calves are in the game,
you don't not hear from Lebron James. Those guys have
to step up front and center and I'm with you.
If this is what you're saying. If Harper is that good,
and I think he is, and he wants to put
the bulls eye on his back and say look at me,
look at us, look at this game, then I I

(34:27):
do believe he has the power to to make a difference,
and he's got the cloud to do it. So I'm
gonna ask a question and try to put a kind
of fine point on this. And the question may may
be talking about long winded, maybe a little bit long,
but I'm gonna I'm gonna try to be as concise
as I can about this. Right. So, one of the
things that Will has said, and Will and I spent
a lot of time talking about politics and how it

(34:49):
intersects with culture and how it intersects with sports. One
of the things that Will has observed to me is
the notion that the way that retired baseball players now
talk about the game today, which is a browner game
than it was, you know, twenty years ago or certainly
forty years ago, has a kind of similarity to the
way that the voters who show up at Donald Trump

(35:12):
rallies talk about America. Right that there's a kind of
nostalgia that what what what they talk about is is,
you know, we've lost the America that I grew up in.
You know, we've got to get back to the old America,
you know, the the and and what that is, in
the case of a lot of Trump voters at least,
is you know, it's a longing for a less diverse, whiter,

(35:32):
more homogeneous America. So you know, my question to you, Joe,
is whether is how much you think that when you
hear retired baseball players and what we'll call the old
guard for the purpose of this discussion, you know, when
they talk about it, uh talk about when they when
they were just when they expressed discomfort with some of
the things we've been talking about here, or when they
talk about the old days in the game. How much

(35:55):
of that do you think is freighted with a certain
kind of racial nostalgia. And I'll just add this one
last thing. You mentioned the NBA second ago. I mean,
the NBA went through this some years ago, right where
a lot of people when they saw Alan Iverson and
other players, they would say, you know, they would they
would found various coded ways of talking about their disapproval
of with the way that Iverson and others carried themselves,

(36:17):
and if you listen to it carefully, all you could
really hear was that they're kind of uncomfortable with the
notion of like how black the NBA was now, right,
So I'm just curious about that, Like how much of
this do you think there is a level of discomfort
um with the fact that the game is becoming and
not it's not like the way that the game looked before,
and that that's makes people, as they say, a little

(36:38):
squeamish with the notion that this game is becoming basically
a brown man's game. Yeah, I don't know that I
completely agree with that. I think more with regard to
the retired players, if we're sticking on that side of
the fence, I mean leaving Trump out of it for
a second, and that whole idea. I think more of
the retired players, there is an inherent bitterness two money

(37:03):
and and and the way these guys are earning a
living and guys that are getting paid before they've really
done anything. Guys that you know, in the case of Gassage,
if you want to get Goose Gussage riled. I've talked
to him about the great closers of today's game, he'll
go nuts because they'll say, well, back in my day,
you know, this wasn't a one out saved there. There
weren't one inning saves. There's a three inning saved guy.

(37:24):
I think there's a lot of bitterness with how much
to a guy like gos it's easier his job is
considered today than what it was then, the money he
made then, and he's doing card shows now trying to
supplement his income, and and it's just a different world financially.
I get what you're saying with regard to uh, to

(37:44):
kind of multicultural look at this game. I mean, you're
going back into the you know, the fifties, certainly the
sixties with major League Baseball where it was integrated, and uh,
you know that he was I'm sure a different looking game.
I wish I was old and to have seen baseball
in the sixties. That to me has always been that
fantasy time in my mind of when baseball was was

(38:07):
at its best, with this intersecting of some of the
greatest players in the history of the game all on
the field at the same time. But I'm sure the
game looked a lot different back then, with regard to Trump,
I get exactly what you're saying, and you can you
can see some of that, no doubt. I mean that
there's I think most everybody would admit there's there's a

(38:29):
certain element of that. I also think with regard to Trump,
that there's there's some feel by middle America or maybe
even on the coasts that it's it's somewhat refreshing and
and take his message out because a lot of what
he says is just crazy, that the politically correct times

(38:53):
are are getting really constricting and old for people. And
and so to take it back the goose gossage what
he said. He has every right to be able to
say what he said. But but everybody beat him back
into the middle ground, and he there he was at
the end of that saying I'm apologizing I got a
little crazy there. But if you know, if you saw

(39:15):
him in the hallway, go yeah, hell yeah, that's how
I feel. That he didn't get crazy, that's how he felt.
Why can he not say how he felt the same
with regard to Trump. It's at least at the beginning
of this, and maybe this is all played out by now,
what was at least, you know, drawing to a television said,
as my god, I can't believe that guy just said that.
It's not always right, it's not politically correct. But I

(39:38):
think there's some appeal to that. So I I think
there's a lot of things going on here. I'm not
I'm just personally not comfortable throwing just race, race, race
into it. I'm sure there's an element of that, but
but I think there's more sides to it, more facets
to it, especially with regard to the baseball thing, that
this is a much different game just racially, uh than

(40:02):
it was back in the sixties. I mean, it's a
long time ago. You know, you have obviously connection to St. Louis.
I also have a connection to St. Louis, and that
I roote for the best baseball team and in the
world that has the best fans and everything. It's wonderful.
Um That's why, that's why, that's why I've enjoyed That's
why I enjoyed that World Series where the Giants whipped
your ass so much. Well yeah, yeah, well, John roots

(40:23):
for enough baseball teams that eventually a couple of them
to win the World Series. Um. So, anyway, one thing
that you know, certainly I was there in two thousand
and fourteen. I was actually at that game if you saw,
but they were Black Lives Matter protesters outside Bus Stadium.
They actually protested by the smoking section outside Bus Stadium,

(40:43):
which is I as a former smoker, I've been to
that area and know that that's not always necessarily people
that are conducive to the Black Lives Matter movement. So
you could see U a potential conflict there. But one thing,
you know, I've talked to I. You know, I I
grew up watching the eighties teams, but my father grew
up watching the those teams in this in the mid
six season. He talked about how he's talked He's talked

(41:05):
to me about how those teams with Bob Gibson and
Mike Shannon and and you know, and in Orlandos Atlantic,
Cepeda and you know, and all of these like they
were in a way we were a unifying thing for
not only people in St. Louis, but people throughout the
Cardinals fan base and really throughout the country. They were
a unifying multicultural thing in a way that now he

(41:28):
was appalled to watch that kind of battle, not because
not because he was necessarily on one side or the other,
but the idea that baseball was this thing that was
almost being was being used as a wedge to drive
between people rather than something that used to kind of
connect them. Do you see among baseball's fan base and
even you know, I mean this, you know you you
you cover you obviously, uh cover football as well. You

(41:50):
you you're very connected to that. Do you see a
difference in the fan base not even just so much
color wise, but just like age wise and generational wise,
you know, baseball pushes now so much these young players.
Do you see among the fan base? A. I don't
want to use the word conservative, but almost A. It
feels like baseball's fan base is different than say the

(42:12):
NBA's fan base and in the NFL's fan base, and
whether that's a good thing and what they can maybe
even do about that, Yeah, I think so. Um, you know,
baseball still is is in that you know, ridiculous song.
I guess it was Chevrolet Baseball apple Pie and whatever
the hell it was. And it it feels like, you know,
it's kind of based in that that conservative at least

(42:35):
by today's standards, conservative category, you know, and and yeah,
you do see I think a little bit you see
a different crowd at a at a Cardinals home game
than you would say a Blues home game. Um, I
can't speak to a Rams home game anymore. A because
it's not pertinent and B because they really had no

(42:56):
fans that that we're showing up. By the end of it,
it's for guarded that mess um. And it wasn't the
fans fault in my opinion, But we can talk about
that another day. I think, uh yeah, I think there's
something to that. And there's no doubt you know when
when when they protested there, it's a smart move. I mean,
you can do it in an outside of a library,

(43:17):
or you can have the protest outside of Easily the
biggest thing that we have going on in the city
of St. Louis during the course of the summer or
really any part of the year, and that is a
Cardinals game. And if if you want attention, that's where
you go. And I think that's an easy you see
the clash there because this is this is an issue
that should be important. Black lives matter to everybody, um

(43:41):
and and and that should be something that everybody should
be aware of. What it can't do is then mean
that you're picking any particular race over law enforcement, and
law enforcement covers multi racial divides and and it's it's
it's it's a multi Rachiel racial institution. So I I

(44:02):
think that's what gets everybody uh clashing when if you
step back, you realize, well, hell yeah, you know this,
this is a good cause on all sides. And and
so for your father to see that going on outside
of a Cardinal baseball game, I'm sure brought him back
to back in the day when when times were different,
and they were in the sixties, and then this great

(44:23):
Cardinals team came along right in the Midwest. Uh and
and it was Cepeda uh and it was Xavier and
it was Mike Shannon, and for a while it was
Mariss and it was Bob Gibson and Louke Rock and
Kurt Flood and and nobody cared who was what they
were Cardinals and everybody loved watching this team play. That

(44:44):
had to be a very healing, good warm feeling for
for people and and especially those involved. I've talked, I've
worked with and talked to a lot of those guys
and uh and they felt that, you know, it was
important in this city, and it was important in those times.
So Joe, let me let me switch to let me
switch gears a little bit, um and and ask you

(45:04):
about about Rob manfred Um. I was telling Will earlier
that I was out in Wisconsin last week Corona Wisconsin Primary,
and I had the chance to go and spend some
time with Bud seeing Um, something I've never done before. Uh.
And one of the things that Bud and I talked
about was the extent to which the commissioners ship is
basically a political job. And you know, we talked about

(45:26):
we reminisced about his time as commissioner and rather amusing.
How did you find him? I I'm anxious because I
I think Bud seely is he is one of the
most decent, nice men I've met in professional sports. I mean,
I know everybody's quick to pick on him, but I'm
a tremendous fan is, especially personally. I mean, I disagree

(45:47):
with various things about the way in which he ran
the league, but I have to say, just at the
level of of the personal the level you're talking about,
I agree with you percent. He's a very nice guy.
I'm really super biased. My dad was knting from Milwaukee
and and my dad is basically Bud, like just in
terms of his I mean, they're they're basically the same guy.
And you know, my my my father has all that
Wisconsin kind of moderate um conservative with a small C

(46:09):
in the sense of a very self deprecating um civil
uh smart, uh, you know, kind of socially tolerant um
but but but but kind of probity and and kind
of just just kind you know, um, the two of
those guys, my dad and Bud could go into court,
could go into chili dog together, and they could talk

(46:30):
for six hours. And they have all the same cultural touchdown.
So I see a lot of my dad and Bud
sealing and and and and I had a really nice
time chatting with him. The funniest thing about the about
the encounter, I said to him at one point, jokingly,
I thought, I said, you know, being the commissioner of baseball,
it's kind of like being uh, you're you're sort of
like being your political figure. I said, you know, you're
kind of like the president United States. I said, although

(46:52):
you know, some would argue that the president the United
States has more power than the baseball commissioner. Well, I said,
I said, some would argue, I said, but I said,
how do you feel about that? Who has more power?
And Bud sat there and thought about it for a
early long time before he was finally willing to concede
the notion that the president had more power than than
the commissioners. Um he was not willing to concede that
the pope was more powerful than the commissioner baseball, though

(47:14):
that was He basically said, well, I don't think. I
don't know about that anyway. So my question for you
is this, You know, he was such a dominant figure
in baseball for such a long time, and again, just
just thinking about the political skills he went. Obviously dealt
with the steroid UH scandal, the steroid era, and dealt
with a whole lot of other things. Talk about from
your point of view, what Buds Bud sealings his skills

(47:38):
as a political as a leader of the sport, as
kind of guardian of the institution of baseball, and then
talk about how you think that what you see so
far and Rob Manfred in that area, like what what
his challenges are and what you can see from the
little we know about his capacities to meet those kind
of again big institutional challenges for the I think Bud

(48:01):
was really good behind the scenes. I think where Bud
got picked on was how he appeared in front of
microphones and cameras and and that is what. Now, there
were other issues obviously, you know, he was the he
was the commissioner baseball during the steroid era, if you
want to put quotes around it, and you know, act

(48:24):
like performance enhancing drugs or out of professional sports. Now,
uh yeah, I mean we all are smarter than that.
But he he was the guy on the baseball side,
and he is on the baseball side clashing with the
guys on the players Association and their union side, uh

(48:45):
during that time. So what I think held him back
the most, at least with regard to public opinion, was
kind of how he reacted and looked and the things
he said sometimes when a micro he wasn't dynamic. And
that why you know, if you want to shift gears
and go back to the political side of it, you
know that's really what we're what this whole thing is about. Now,

(49:07):
you know who's best in front, who can put on
the best show, who can put on and and and
I say I would argue that putting on the best
show in a debate or put that show in front
of cameras, would be it live or taped. It is
a part of the job. But but right now it
seems to be in some ways the only determining factor.

(49:28):
Who who looked nervous on the stage during the debate,
Who who made who stepped in the who stepped in
the puddle? Who said something they shouldn't have said? Oh
my god, it was live TV, but yet they made
a mistake, Oh my god, and you lose. I think
some of the better candidates because they're not the photogenic,
are there not that swift on their feet, or they

(49:48):
can't act. It's really more acting now that's what Trump's
doing it. It's an act and and people get sucked
into that act, so to go back to but but
didn't have that act. But I think it was really
good behind the scenes. What's his legacy, you know? I
think with regard to the wild card, that was a
big thing. I think in earleague play. I still enjoy

(50:09):
interleague play. It was bigger when it started, and you
can argue that, um, but I think the All Star
Game counting at least is put And I know Will
is peeling his skin off right now. Is the All
Star game. Counting is a big deal to me because
it makes that game better as opposed to just you know,
everybody gets wanted that and then they're back to net

(50:30):
jets and back home during the All Star break. I
think it makes the best All Star game better. There's
a form of revenue sharing with the internet, UH and
and those rights amongst clubs. There's a lot that he
did behind the scenes, UH that I think the average
fan isn't aware of. Man Fred I think is in
position now where there's a lot of harmony between the

(50:52):
association and ownership, and I think a lot of good
things can get done, whether it's tough for drug testing, UM,
whether it's growing this game globally, which I know is
is there number one desire to do. I. I think
he's a very smart guy and has a good way
about him, and I think he was the right pick.

(51:12):
I wasn't sure, and now that I've been around him
and seen him in that position for over a year
now I like what what he's about and and you know,
time will tell, but I think he was the right selection.
I'm excited to see what he does. All right. Well,
thank you for your time, sir, we certainly I'm not
going to battle you on the All Star thing. I'm
just not I've I've given I know, I know, I
know the after the Adam Wayne right pipe job to

(51:35):
Derek Jeter, that was my ultimate. Okay, let's but let's something,
but let's not that, but mostly thanks for coming out. Now.
You've got a book coming out in November, right in November. Yes, Uh, well,
it's been enough where if you have a table that's
got one leg that's shorter than the other, you can
even it out. Let's just leave it like bad. Maybe
that's what it'll be good for. Well, then I will

(51:55):
always be able. I will get it and my well
even out my bed, so I'll always be able to
say I have Joe buck book at my bedside, and
by then, I mean it will be keeping my bed people.
It's what it's what are we winning by will Leach
is doing for me right now, so we can be uh,
we can be brothers in that. Listen when we look
forward to it, because when Joe and your book comes out,
We're not only gonna put you back on this podcast,
but we're gonna get you on television and and bring

(52:16):
you into the studio and New York and let you
do it and put you on with all due respect,
because we'd love to do that. Um. I want to
ask you one last question before we let you go, though,
even though this is only tangentially related to the rather
serious and weighty topics that we've covered so far on
this conversation. Who you got in as an L and
a L champions for this year? Who are going to
see in the World Series if you had a bet

(52:38):
right now, again, this is gonna be Will without skin.
But I'm buying into the Cubs. I just think they're
death And I thought Delbris was the biggest signing that
they made and really maybe the best across baseball over
the off season. They have the right manager, they have
a good young team. I I would pick Cubs in
the National League as we sit here now, and he

(52:58):
knows what of cour and and then uh in the
American League. Man. You know, every year in my career
you go right to the American League East, and I
don't know that you do that. I know a lot
of people still like Toronto. I'm Kansas City. I just uh,
it happened again in the you know, the first game

(53:20):
of the season, they get an okay start, and then
it's bullpen just mow you down. I just don't see
with the depth in that bullpen game after game, with
that lineup and their approach, I think they're the best
in the American League. I say Cubs Kansas City, all right,
that's those are totally respectable picks. Just tell me this
just said, as I sit here in New York City
and as will will mock me for having too many

(53:41):
teams that I root for. But um, is this going
to be just your crushing disappointment for fans of the
New York Mets. No, I know. I think this is
the beginning of a golden era for them. They almost
can't miss with their young rotation. Some of those guys
have gone through surgery already, and that's a good thing. Uh,
they'll be better when they get Wheeler back. I just

(54:01):
I'm wondering the uh interest level of Cspitous after the
contract and kind of showing up like in you know,
sports cars and horses and whatever he was doing during
spring training. You know, it's time to play baseball and
honor the deal. But but you know, yeah, that would
be my number two pick. I think the two teams

(54:22):
have ended up in the National League last year, the
two best teams this year, and we'll see who ends
up in the World Series if it's either one of them.
But those would be my two picks. All right, Joe Buck,
you are a gentleman, a scholar, uh and really generous
for coming on the podcast. I was a be scholar university.

(54:43):
I'll say you're a great scholar. I just said you
were a scholar. Okay, true. I'd like to add in
one more biographical name for you, having now that you've
picked the Cubs from the World Series. Joe Buck, you
are history's greatest monster exactly. I step last year when
somebody asked me in August what it would be like
to do a World Series of regularly, and I was like, well,

(55:04):
are you kidding me? It'd be unbelievable. And then they
ran it in the St. Louis Paper when the Cardinals
and Cubs are gonna play in the Division Series of Yeah. Right,
but you know I cannot tell a lie. All right, Well,
thanks Joe, thanks for coming on, and uh, well we'll
we'll chat again when the book comes out. Alright, guys,

(55:24):
thanks again to our good friend Joe Buck for coming
on the podcast that basically wraps it up, Well, how
do you think we did today? Listen? I I feel
like we, like many eleven Team Cardinals teams before us,
we won the World Series in this podcast. Oh I
just the idea that you're comparing this podcast to the
most despicable team in sports really makes me sad. Well,

(55:44):
it makes me somebody doesn't like championships somewhere. So I
just don't like St. Louis and I really don't like
you very much right now. But we are going to
bring this thing to an end, right now. Will, It's
been a real pleasure being with you. You are off
at the final four right now. I believe I am not.
I'm now back in New York City after three months
on the campaign trail, and I'm happy to be back home.
Here gives me a chance to get into a groove,

(56:05):
including making sure that we stay on a really regular
schedule of doing this podcast, which is of course called
Culture Caucus. Will. Where can you find this podcast? You
can find this podcast on iTunes. Please give us a
nice review on iTunes makes it easier for people to
find the podcast. You can also find the podcast on
SoundCloud and of course on Bloomberg Politics dot com, not
dot org. Not Bloomberg Politics dot org is Bloomer politics

(56:27):
dot com. That's fabulous. Tune in again in a couple
of weeks when we come back with another scintillating topic
about politics and its intersection with the big sea. That's culture.
Good Day Bye, brought to you by Oppenheimer Funds The

(56:49):
Right Way to Invest. Explore long term opportunities at Oppenheimer
Funds dot Com.