June 24, 2025 • 33 mins
Over the weekend, while the world was transfixed by war in the Middle East, the Tesla Robotaxi quietly appeared on the streets of Austin, Texas. It didn’t stay quiet for long, though. As a handful of Tesla influencers filmed themselves driven through the streets of the red state’s famously blue capital, their smartphone videos caught plenty of traffic violations.
In this week’s episode David Papadopoulos is joined by Max Chafkin as well as Bloomberg electric vehicles reporter Kara Carlson to break down the launch. Years in the making, and with rivals like Waymo already familiar sights in some big US cities, will Elon Musk be able to spin this as something other than a tepid attempt at catch-up? Tesla investors seem to think so: the stock jumped 8.2% on Monday.
Papadopoulos and Chafkin are then joined by Bloomberg social media reporter Kurt Wagner, just back from the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Wagner discusses X’s participation, or rather absence, from the all-important advertising event, and goes through how Musk’s embattled social media platform has reportedly tried to strong-arm advertisers to return by threatening lawsuits. This prompted Papadopoulos to speculate about the equivalent situation for hot dog vendors or shovel salesmen.
Lastly, the crew discuss a few additional news item from the week, namely an exploding SpaceX rocket and the recent report that Musk doesn’t use a computer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Let me tell you we have a new star.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
A star is born Elon On Mars Juthan Kennemy.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.
Speaker 5 (00:18):
Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.
I feel for the guy.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does.
Speaker 6 (00:25):
But those two percent.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
That are nasty, they are our pit in four post.
Speaker 5 (00:30):
We were meant for great things in the United States
of America, and Elon reminds us of that.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm very disappointed in Elan.
Speaker 7 (00:37):
I've helped Elon a lot.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Welcome to Elan and Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk.
It's Tuesday, June twenty fourth. I'm your host, David Popadopoulos.
So over the weekend, while the world was transfixed by
the war raging in the Middle East, US quietly rolled
out the Tesla robotaxi on the mean streets of Austin, Texas.
It didn't stay quiet for long though. In fact, it
(01:09):
sounded a little like.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
This, This is a big day for Tesla robo taxi
experience is.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
About to be crazy.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
We are fastened, we have our location here estimated rival
start ride. Our ride is complete, but it looks like
the Robotaxi is waiting for its next call.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Bloomberg EV reporter Kara Carlson was there for it all,
and she makes her elon Ink debut today to tell
us about it. Welcome to the show, Kara.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Then later on, our man Kurt Wagner, just off the
plane from the French Riviera, will join us to break
down Ex's participation or perhaps absence, from the all important
Lions Advertising Festival. Of course, an episode of elon Ink
ain't an episode of elon Ink without the pre one,
Max Chafkin.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I was wondering who if you were going to introduce
me or what here? I was very patiently.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
You were nervous, worried. All right, So Max will have
for you today, in no particular order, reports on enchiladas,
exploding rockets in Musk's odd computer situation. But we do
indeed start in Austin with you, Kara. You were there
for the launch on Sunday. What did you see?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah, so I started off bright and early.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
You know, six am is when they were potentially going
to start launching, So I didn't see any four hours
they end up launching it about too. But I live
in one of the neighborhoods they're launching, so I actually
was seeing some of their vehicles just driving around, you know,
my neighborhood streets in the morning as we were waiting
and watching streams. I ended up watching the first three
rides through the stream of some of these people with
(02:55):
early access before heading out, and there was only a
few cars out, so it was actually a bit of
a game to try to find any of them.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Okay, So in other words, like there was no starter gun,
there was no pomp and circumstance or a hype man,
there was no musk, there was nothing that said the
Robotaxi launch.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
No.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Suddenly they just started popping up here and there.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, they've been in areas of south and southeast Austin
for a few months now. They're not labeled Robotaxi, the
ones they've been using for testing. They're just model wise
that they just recently refreshed. And I started noticing there's
a lot with you know, manufacturer plates just kind of
popping up. Sometimes they had some roof racks with sensors
on them. They're just kind of driving around. I think,
(03:40):
you know, Elon Musk said, they're driving around in circles,
and that really is what some of these neighborhoods have
felt like we.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Should probably just like lay out the basics of this launch.
Kara mentioned it very small number of cars. I think
we think, what like about ten, Tara, is that right.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
About ten to twenty? I would say from what I observed,
that feels like the right number. And that's what Tesla's
said before.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I feel like you maybe saw every single one of them.
Very small area, I mean, you know, it doesn't include
downtown Austin. And really importantly, there was a safety monitor
in the passenger seat, which so a guy sitting in
the passenger seat, not behind the wheel, but somehow babysitting
(04:21):
in the car. In a lot of these videos, the
safety monitor has his finger on a button which I
think most people assume is an emergency brake. Yeah, it's
the it's the button that kills you if you tweet
something mean about the ROBOTAXI while you're in it.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Uh wait, women, so literally the whole time he or
she has their finger like just hovering over the button.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yeah, or or just kind of on it. It seems
like there may have been some other types of you know,
controls or ways to provide input in the vehicle. You
also have, at least according to statements that that Musk
and others have made you know, on the earnings call,
some tele operation as well, So they're probably in addition
to that safety monitor is a guy sitting at a
(05:09):
desk watching the ride who is also able to intervene
one way or another world. I don't think we know
exactly what that intervention could be. It could be anywhere
from sort of giving the ROBOTAXI some commands or suggestions
all the way to you know, maybe a steering wheel
or whatever where where that person could literally take you.
(05:29):
But we don't know exactly what That tele operation.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
A lot of supervision. Now, obviously the idea is at
some point, once this thing gets you know, a little
more experience out there, the training wheels come off and
it's out on its own in the wild. Now, Kara,
who got to take these initial rides? Was it just
picking up random strangers on the street.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
So Friday night, a bunch of Tesla influencers and retail investors,
and these are accounts that you know, really are interacting
with Elon Musk get interacting with a lot of like
Tesla News at all times. That's kind of whole brand.
Got emails that said you have early access to the
Robotaxi starting Sunday, and then you know, some other Tesla
fans ended up coming in and kind of going as
(06:09):
their plus ones.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
They were allowed one guest per.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Ride, but it was really just a handful of pretty
loyal influencers for the most part.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
These are not like automotive influencers like we've seen Elon
Musk kind of include like these sort of YouTubers who
review cars and stuff in at you know, at at
at earnings calls and so on. This was like Elon
Musk influencers. These are people who are very, very very
enthusiastically on the Musk train, which Karen and I found
(06:39):
out when we tried to be asked them if they
would take us as their their plus one and were
at least in my chance in hell, yeah, repeatedly denied.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Right, Well, I can't blame them in your case now,
I don't care. I'm just getting to know you. But
in Max's case, yeah no, I also wouldn't ride in
a vehicle with you, all right, So how in general
these vehicles perform and how are they continuing to perform.
There has been there have been some videos that have
started to go a bit viral about some unconventional, shall
(07:14):
we say, driving techniques. But on the whole and these
things held up okay so far.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
They drive pretty much as any other car.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
They you know, they were doing pretty predictable driving behavior
when we were following them around. But there have been
a few videos that have shown some concerning behavior. There's
been some mild speeding, you know, a few miles over
the limit, which people are you know, humans too too,
but it is strange for a robotaxi to speed typically.
There's been one instance that a lot of people have
(07:43):
poined us particularly concerning. So there's a vehicle that was
starting to turn left, peared to maybe decided it was
going to go straight instead, and the spearing wheel really
jerked around and it started to go straight instead, and
it was going in the wrong direction, in the wrong
lane for a few seconds there and then.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
Got well, wait, so it was going into potentially into
oncoming traffic, did go it did go in downcom then,
but then it got it right two hours later, figured
it out.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It got back into them.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Well that doesn't sound good.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I mean, I almost feel like I don't need to
say this, but this is very much a demonstration, in
a very controlled demonstration, so we're evaluating it. So so
part of why Kara is bringing up these like what
they sound like very minor examples, and they are, except that, like,
this is a situation where you're where there is a
(08:35):
ton of monitoring, where they're where the roots have been
traveled over many times, where it's like a very controlled
and we're even getting the information we're getting from these
rides is also very controlled because it's being filtered through
these fans. But the thing is, like what they've done
here really is a long way from what Elon Musk
(08:57):
has said they're going to do, and what he said
they're going to do, just to remind people, is to
be able to have any tesla anywhere driving around unsupervised.
None of that is true right now. There is a
very small geographic area, a very small fleet, and there
is a ton of supervision, and I think it would
have been it would have been surprising if something really
(09:19):
bad happened with these tests. Even these minor, you know,
screw ups are a little bit surprising just because again,
this is not all that different from what we saw
in October, you know on the soundstage, right, it's just
like a charger version of that thing, and which, okay,
maybe that's some progress, but still.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
Right, which gets me to the next point, Cara, which
is despite how sort of you know, just okay, this
whole launch seemed the stock really popped yesterday Tesla stock
did it? It rallied eight percent, which by Tesla standards
because it's a very volatile stock, it's not some enormous move,
and yet eight percent is eight percent. It's certainly did
(10:00):
not go down, So I guess the market market's first
take is like, wow, this is great, big hit.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I mean, this is an event that people have
been waiting years and years for. Elon Musk has really
bet the entire company on autonomy, on AI, on the
ability to launch a network like this, and investors are
just glad it's meeting that mark on.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
A lot of levels. They will be closely watching to
see if it actually can scale from here.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Is something that even the most polish investers are really
keeping an eye on right now.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Though, Yeah, I mean, is is ten percent in a
day for Tesla a huge move. That's like it's like
a Wednesday or something.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
You know, it's nothing. Esha Day Bloomberg Tesla reporter told
me she doesn't even get up for an eight percent move.
She's Tesla, right, you yeah, for most other stocks, but no,
so yes, correct.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Look, the other thing is for this stock, eight percent
is not a huge jump. This is a very volatile stock.
But also like there were versions of this day that
could have been a lot worse. Right, One thing that
has surprised me, frankly, is how cautious Elon Musk is
being with this launch, like it in certain ways, like, yes,
(11:09):
he's putting these cars that in a lot of ways
don't seem to do the thing that he says they're
do on public roads. On the other hand, he's kept
this to be a very modest demo, I think, much
more modest than anybody believed or anybody would have thought.
Like he's he's talking about teleoperation, which is something that
it hadn't talked about before, or he had said if
(11:29):
if there was tele operation, that would be a bad sign.
So in other words, like he's being safe at least
or maybe safer than he otherwise could have been or
some of his actions like we didn't see as you know,
maybe concerning or whatever. As the incident we talked about
with the Tesla crossing over the double line is you know,
there wasn't anything worse. So maybe it's slightly beat expectations
(11:51):
that some people had.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
I do think apparently the bar was pretty damn.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Well, I'm say a very low bar. But I'm they're
also maybe like the enthusiasm may fade because like the
novelty here of being able to drive like from one
end of part of Austin to the other, it's is
gonna face.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
Yeah, it's like the boring company right where you can
go from what I want.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
One end of the yea from the Las Vegas Convention
Center to the resorts world.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
You know, Max, last week when you launched your acronym
a report.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Talking about mammoot or Madra, there were multiple, right, there
were two, you had two. It was a two fer.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
I must forgot about Madra no when you were Okay,
so when you were launching your acronyms, a bit of
a riff on Taco, Trump always chickens out. Hence uh
stock investors by stocks, we had asked our listeners our
legions of listeners to put forth any ideas they may
(12:48):
have for acronyms that could improve upon if such a
thing could be done that would improve upon mammoot. And
you know we got a brilliant idea.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, we got some fun responses. My favorite and Grant,
who responded with a lot of good ideas, but also
complaining that we hadn't seen that he had his own acronym,
which was enchilagaha.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
Way, so he launched it. He alleges he launched it before.
Speaker 6 (13:15):
Unfortunately, the time stamps uh confirm his his his launch
uh elon never completes his innovative level for autonomous driving
announcements enchilada.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
This guy obviously, you know, something of a bear. I
would I would guess. He also, in response to mamoot,
which he thought was, you know, insufficiently creative, uh, suggested
a few others with the help I believe of chat Ept,
including and now these are replacements for mamoot, which was
(13:49):
musk always makes up with Trump. These include kso Coral
until eventually snuggling online salsa spats are loud. Still amigos
guawk grudges usually aren't consistent. Burrito billionaires ultimately reconcile, regardless
of Internet tempestuous outbursts. None of them are perfect. But Grant,
(14:11):
thank you Grants for these ideas. They are all hilarious,
and I regret missing Enchilada.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Grant's given this a lot of thought.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
I know a lot to work with.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
I like just about all of them, Enchillada in particular
because there's a just a mouthful quile. It's very long,
it's slightly incomprehensible. Elon never completes his innovative level four
autonomous driving announcements. That's all good, But Kara, now that
the robotaxi is is roaming the streets of Austin, is
(14:42):
that still true? Is en shallota truer? Was the acronym
launched only immediately to be vanquished, defeated and go away?
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I think it depends on kind of where we go
from here.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
No, no, no, no, no, depends well.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Level of autonomy they're using.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
They haven't actually revealed a lot about what kind of
the text stack behind this.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Looks like level four autonomy is like a lot of
are you doing it.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Without any kind of supervision? I don't think this counts.
He's good, Kara, You think there's even a question here.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I think we need to wait and see what level
of autonomy they claim it to be, and they will
have to self report in the very least suite to Texas.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Well, wait a minute, but if there's a dude in
the vehicle with his finger always hovering over the emergency
eject button, I don't know. I mean that doesn't sound
I think Grant's good. I think is good now for now. Okay,
very good, Cara. We will talk again soon.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So good.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
We are now joined by Bloomberg ex reporter Kurt Wagner. Kurt,
welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Hi David, thank you for having me, so.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Listen, Kurt. Let me just get this out of the
way and get it off my chest. But fuck you, Kurt.
Speaker 7 (15:57):
Okay, Max and I been sweating it out on the
mean streets of Manhattan, earning an honest living, and you're
sipping Royal vespers and taking in the sea breeze at
La Belle Epoc.
Speaker 5 (16:11):
What kind of gig is this that you have?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I feel like this wasn't even the worst introduction you've
ever given me on this show, so I feel like,
you know, by that standard, I'm actually moving up in
the world. That's right, David. While you were sweating here
in New York, I was sweating in the south of France.
And it's a hard life out there, you know, you
get up early at the meetings.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
You know, looking out at the French River.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I expect you to understand. But yes, I was at
Canlon's last week, the Wonderful Advertising Festival. For those who
are unfamiliar, it's essentially everybody in the world who is
involved in the ad industry, from you know, the big
players like the Metas and Youtubes and Googles of the world,
to these agencies to the creators who are now making
(16:58):
a living on this. They all show up and and
spend a week together sort of cutting deals and boondoggling
and all that kind of stuff. So it was a
good time.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
Now, what was Ex's presence there, because I feel like
just last year its presence was kind of odd, unique,
and how did it play out this year?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So last year was interesting because Elon showed up himself
and I believe he did a keynote with WPP, one
of the largest ad agencies in the world, I believe,
the largest ad agency, and he kind of signaled, hey,
this is important to me by physically showing up and
giving his time. In years past, X formerly known as Twitter,
(17:39):
had literally like a beachside setup, you know, they set
up there was a concerts that they had, they would
hold the all there. I was. That was back in
the day. This was you know, pre COVID. When I
was there this week, I did not see a single
X branded sign throughout the entire conference. Just to give
(18:01):
you a sense, like TikTok took over an entire hotel,
essentially Meta takes over multiple floors of a hotel, has
a giant beachside thing, you know, like everyone is throwing
their logo in your face. Essentially you can't walk down
the street without seeing these things, just just like right
in front of you. X was nowhere to be seen.
And I thought that was very notable.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
So how do I interpret this, Kurt? Are they just
giving up? What does this mean?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So there's two ways.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I think there's a I'll give maybe the positive X
version and the more critical X version.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I think the.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Positive is it's not very doge to go to can
right like it is not.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
For all the reasons I stated at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, yeah, Saysten, we're cutting We're cutting into it a
little bit. Okay, fine, I'll admit it's not the most
doge thing to go to. Can It's it's definitely a show, right,
It's a it's a bit of a circus. And so
if you are X and Elon is running your company,
maybe the last thing you want to do is be
seen out here kind of frivolously spending money for a
(19:03):
Diplo concert on the beach. I shouldn't say that Yahoo
hosted a Diplo concert. I did go and it was
pretty fun, so, you know, sorry for sorry to use
that as the example. Yah was a great time. But
my point is like, maybe Elon is not wanting to
be seen doing that kind of stuff right now. That's
the positive like reason why X might not be visible.
The more negative is that, quite frankly, they either don't
(19:24):
have the money to do those kinds of things or
they're no longer in that tier as an advertiser.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
What do you mean they don't have the money there?
They're a unit of Xai. Xai has got money coming
out the ear.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
When I hear about Kurt talking about X's advertising business,
I have that feeling of when you hear about a
really old celebrity who you thought had already passed away
like years ago. Like it's like, oh yeah, X has
an advertising is I completely forgot because David, like you said,
they are now part of Xai, and it really seems
(19:56):
like this whole part, you know, this whole soilent.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
They're simply soilent for the Xai robots.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Not necessarily the metaphor I would have used, but yes,
that's exactly what I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That's the cynical way to look at it, right, is
that x is sort of now the you know, the
any money they make is sort of bravy, and it's
the back burner to this much more important thing, which
is that they're using the data to power Xai and
that's really all that matters. And so you know, if
that's the way that that X is, it's certainly nowhere
near the kind of top of the conversation that it
(20:31):
was several years ago in the advertising industry. But maybe
it has a different purpose now to your point.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
But now, Max, it just said a minute ago that
oh my god, right, X advertising, you know, it's just
a corpse, it's a cadaver. It's it's it's long since past.
But I actually thought there was reporting, including perhaps from you,
that indicated there's been a bit of a of an
uptick in advertising revenue over there at X.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, we talked about this a few months ago and
it came up again this week. So way back in February,
I wrote this newsletter that essentially said, hey, we're seeing
it up to an advertising Elon Musk is out here
saying the quote unquote a boycott is essentially over or
soon to be over, like what gibs, right, And what
I heard and what I put in this newsletter was
(21:20):
essentially that everyone in the ad industry is terrified of
not advertising on X because at the time, the owner
of the company was bff with the President of the
United States and they were suing people who didn't advertise there. Right,
So there was this implicit sort of idea that hey,
if we don't spend money on X, we are going
to be sued, and it has been talked about for
(21:43):
several months. The couple days maybe a day before the
conference started last week, the Wall Street Journal had a
more detailed version of that story that said, the lawyers
for X are literally calling some of these advertisers and
making this threat explicit, right, you advertise with us or
we will sue you, and that.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
The illegal argument is kurt. The legal argument is, uh,
what what's the legal argument?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, I'm not an anti trust lawyer. The claim is
that this is anti competitive and that these brands are
sort of colluding to damage X's business. Now, I have
never really heard of a boycott being considered anti competitive,
anti trust, right. I mean, think about how people vote
(22:32):
with their their wallets all day, every day, right, And
there's never been any kind of sort of to my knowledge,
like pushback on this from all illegality standpoint. When you
think about what Elon in particular and Linda really have
said about free speech, it's quite comical to think that,
you know, hey, spend money on our product or we
(22:54):
will sue you. Oh, by the way, we're free speech absolutists.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
To me, those things do not really go hand in hand.
But again, on the eve of this conference, essentially this
story comes out that paints X in quite a negative light. Again,
it's not totally new. We've been talking about this for months,
but it did set a stage, i would say, for
discussions around next At the event, and a bunch of
people that I talked to last week pointed out like
this is pretty shady stuff. If this is indeed what's
(23:20):
happening to people.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Yeah, I mean, Max, I guess I don't understand if
they are doing this and they're allowed to do this,
I guess I just don't know where it ends like
to me. Then, I suppose the hot dog vendor at
the street is, you know, his sales pitches by this
hot dog or I'll punch you in the face. The
guy selling shovel says, by this shovel or I will
(23:44):
beat you with it. I mean, it's pretty darn odd like.
And I don't, well, I guess if it's working in
the short term, I suppose, God bless him. But man,
it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Seem still is it working? I mean the data.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Kurt said that he's got reporting that says revenue is
ticking back up.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah, I just again, like you sort of would wonder
if we're seeing maybe token purchases, small purchases to deal
with the threat rather than well it.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Just Kurt, that is the would token purchases of ads
be enough to drive that pick up and add revenue
that you talked about.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yes, at scale, because remember the numbers are quite small. Right.
I mean, this is not like a one hundred billion
dollar annual revenue company where someone spending ten million bucks
gets totally lost in the sauce. It's like they're making
you know, two zero point five billion dollars in annual revenue.
So if suddenly you have, you know, a dozen advertisers
(24:43):
that all could you know, spending ten million plus dollars
or whatever it is, that's going to actually be a notable,
noticeable jump in revenue. Small but noticeable. So I do
think the token thing is is sort of a real
and if you are a giant advertiser, you have to
weigh like, is ten million dollars worth sort of the
(25:04):
public drama of being sued by X and going through
a multi year lawsuit. And I think a lot of
brands would just say, you give money enough.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
You just give them the money and run the ad.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
But is this a sustainable thing? Right? Like to Max's point, like, Okay,
maybe there's an uptick this year, but like, this is
not the sign of a healthy business when you have
to force your clients to spend with you at risk
of lawsuit.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Okay, Kurt so CEO Linda y Eckarino sat down with
an Axios reporter for a panel there at kind and
it got a little sporty tell us briefly about it.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Well, we talked about that story that came out, and
so Linda was asked about this on stage. I believe
it's on Monday of can so, the very first day
of the conference, and essentially, instead of you know, either
acknowledging yes, we are doing this or even disputing it,
the real feedback was like she trashed the Wall Street Journal.
(25:59):
You know, was like, and we.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Will still read that publication.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Right, and the whole notion. And you guys are familiar
with this because you cover Elon and have paid attention
to Elon for years, but like, this is a pretty
tried and true strategy from sort of el Dusk as well, right,
which is like someone writes something that he doesn't like
or in this case, she doesn't like, and the response is, well,
I'm just going to bash the journalism. I'm going to
bash that outlet and those reporters and sort of cast
(26:26):
doubt on the story that way. And so that's what
we saw. But it was a kind of an awkward
way to start the week, right, everyone's there to potentially
do these deals and and.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Perhaps give x big checks for money for ads.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
But instead of starting that way, it really started with
this sort of combative conversation with Linda, and and it
did come up several times throughout my discussions that week.
Is just sort of like it wasn't really a great
look for her or X on the eve or the
beginning of this important conference.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
A bit of a buzzkill.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
The other thing I'm thinking about as Kurt is talking
about this, we talked last week about cash burn at XAI. Yes,
I think a billion dollars a month was the figure
that we had from our reporting. I mean, there's a
lot of cash going out of this combined company, and
for x.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
It's mostly just going to be for the debt, right,
I mean they've sacked a huge chunk of their workforce
and right, I mean, yeah, you're right, they are believing.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I'm just saying there's not that much revenue coming in
to this operation, either from the AI side or from
the advertising side.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
Yeah. I mean that fundraise apparently, which they are still
doing right now for XAI, of which x is now
a unit, apparently came a touch too late for the
big con party. They had that money come in. You
know they would you know, that's where Kurt would have
been hanging out on Thursday nights.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
It would have been doing a double.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
Okay, now, Kurt, don't hang up, don't leave us.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
But I got a couple of quick things rapid fire
for Max and if you have some clever thought, some epiphany, sir,
great way in the shouted out Max, there was another
exploding rocket.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, over the weekend, a starship rocket doing a static
fire test. That's a kind of test where they fire
the engine while it's it's on the ground. It exploded.
I think in the statement SpaceX called it like a
significant anomaly or something like that.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
But yes, it was a bad They say the darnedest
things they do. You got to give them credit. They
have rocket engineers.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Is funny, right. Anyway, this was bad. This was not
something they expect, especially, and.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
It's bad because they just keep happening one after the
after another, like.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
The third fourth, Yeah, I think maybe the fourth trier
we've had it not go exactly right. If Lauren Grush,
you know, our colleague and Bloomberg Aerospace reporter, were here,
she just got Curt. She would say that like, look,
this is these are experimental crafts. Explosions are not totally
uncommon or or necessarily even unexpected.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
Sorry, wasn't it and maybe you already said this, But
wasn't it simply refueling?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
It was a fuel mishap. There was an explosion while
they were loading fuel in Uh. Yeah, definitely not supposed
to happen, and they're investigating it. And I do think
while these are experimental craft each time something like this happens,
it pushes the timeline back a little bit. And this
is a company that is very much under the gun
(29:34):
if they want to meet Elon Musk's very very aggressive
timelines for sending these rockets, you know, towards Mars or
even set putting them to tests that could lead them
to go to Mars. So definitely a setback. You know,
on top of the issues that we've talked about for
the last few weeks with Trump and the former NASA
point e.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Now we also had a revelation of sort On Musk's
computer situation.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yeah, this is where I want Kurt's input here, because
a lot of people were surprised that in the legal
filings between open AI and Elon Musk in the dispute
between Sam Altman and Elon Musk open Ai and Elon Musk.
Elon's team essentially said he does not have a computer
and that, like the open Ai, I had been expecting,
(30:23):
you know, emails or documents from his computer. I guess
they got some from his phone, but his lawyer said,
no computer. And a lot of people are surprised by this.
And my reaction, Kurt, was, is it really that surprising.
I feel like Elon's not the only CEO who goes
or claims to go without a computer. Yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I actually wasn't surprised at that at all. For the
same reason Max. I remember in the book I wrote Battle.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
For the Bird.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
By the way, by it read it?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, by it read it?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Please.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Jack Dorsey, the co founder and former CEO of Twitter,
did his entire job from his smartphone. You know what
I mean. He had an iPad that he used from
time to time. But really, I mean, like this is
a guy running.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
That's like very you know, elderly I don't know, or
child of him or something.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I like, Yeah, but I mean like this guy wasn't
just running Twitter. He was running Square now Block at
the same time. So a CEO of two publicly traded
tech companies who did his entire job from his phone, right,
And so, I, I mean, it's hard for me to
imagine Elon's sitting down at his laptop and typing away.
I think we know he did, because he's posted some
some screenshots of a laptop at one point that The
(31:27):
only reason I remember is they were like really smudgy
and gross, and everyone was like, Oh, your screen looks
really looks really gross. You need to clean it. So
I do remember some of that, But no, I'm not
surprised to hear he he works from a phone.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I suspect that laptop is his gaming piece, like he
does play a lot of computer games. But yeah, like
these guys have assistance and stuff as well, Like what
what what would you need a computer for? If you're
Elon Musk.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
You've got he's got what's what the hell is the
name of his robot. He's got optimists Optimist. Yeah, and
he's got like a he's got a hole flock of
Optimi around him that just at his beck a call.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
I would be surprising if you saw Elon Lake typing
away at a laptop, I'd say, unless he was playing
a computer game. Or composing a meme.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
Kurt Wagner. Thanks as always, Max.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Thanks David.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
This episode was produced by Stacy Wong and edited by Annamasirakas,
Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Percell fact checks. Our
supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. The elon Ink theme is
written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. Brendan
Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is
ahead of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks as always to
(32:46):
our supporters Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos.
If you have a minute, rate and review our show,
it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Let me tell you we have a new star.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
A star is born Elon On Mars Juthan Kennemy.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.
Speaker 5 (00:18):
Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.
I feel for the guy.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does.
Speaker 6 (00:25):
But those two percent.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
That are nasty, they are our pit in four post.
Speaker 5 (00:30):
We were meant for great things in the United States
of America, and Elon reminds us of that.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm very disappointed in Elan.
Speaker 7 (00:37):
I've helped Elon a lot.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Welcome to Elan and Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk.
It's Tuesday, June twenty fourth. I'm your host, David Popadopoulos.
So over the weekend, while the world was transfixed by
the war raging in the Middle East, US quietly rolled
out the Tesla robotaxi on the mean streets of Austin, Texas.
It didn't stay quiet for long though. In fact, it
(01:09):
sounded a little like.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
This, This is a big day for Tesla robo taxi
experience is.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
About to be crazy.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
We are fastened, we have our location here estimated rival
start ride. Our ride is complete, but it looks like
the Robotaxi is waiting for its next call.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Bloomberg EV reporter Kara Carlson was there for it all,
and she makes her elon Ink debut today to tell
us about it. Welcome to the show, Kara.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Then later on, our man Kurt Wagner, just off the
plane from the French Riviera, will join us to break
down Ex's participation or perhaps absence, from the all important
Lions Advertising Festival. Of course, an episode of elon Ink
ain't an episode of elon Ink without the pre one,
Max Chafkin.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I was wondering who if you were going to introduce
me or what here? I was very patiently.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
You were nervous, worried. All right, So Max will have
for you today, in no particular order, reports on enchiladas,
exploding rockets in Musk's odd computer situation. But we do
indeed start in Austin with you, Kara. You were there
for the launch on Sunday. What did you see?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah, so I started off bright and early.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
You know, six am is when they were potentially going
to start launching, So I didn't see any four hours
they end up launching it about too. But I live
in one of the neighborhoods they're launching, so I actually
was seeing some of their vehicles just driving around, you know,
my neighborhood streets in the morning as we were waiting
and watching streams. I ended up watching the first three
rides through the stream of some of these people with
(02:55):
early access before heading out, and there was only a
few cars out, so it was actually a bit of
a game to try to find any of them.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Okay, So in other words, like there was no starter gun,
there was no pomp and circumstance or a hype man,
there was no musk, there was nothing that said the
Robotaxi launch.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
No.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Suddenly they just started popping up here and there.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, they've been in areas of south and southeast Austin
for a few months now. They're not labeled Robotaxi, the
ones they've been using for testing. They're just model wise
that they just recently refreshed. And I started noticing there's
a lot with you know, manufacturer plates just kind of
popping up. Sometimes they had some roof racks with sensors
on them. They're just kind of driving around. I think,
(03:40):
you know, Elon Musk said, they're driving around in circles,
and that really is what some of these neighborhoods have
felt like we.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Should probably just like lay out the basics of this launch.
Kara mentioned it very small number of cars. I think
we think, what like about ten, Tara, is that right.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
About ten to twenty? I would say from what I observed,
that feels like the right number. And that's what Tesla's
said before.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I feel like you maybe saw every single one of them.
Very small area, I mean, you know, it doesn't include
downtown Austin. And really importantly, there was a safety monitor
in the passenger seat, which so a guy sitting in
the passenger seat, not behind the wheel, but somehow babysitting
(04:21):
in the car. In a lot of these videos, the
safety monitor has his finger on a button which I
think most people assume is an emergency brake. Yeah, it's
the it's the button that kills you if you tweet
something mean about the ROBOTAXI while you're in it.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Uh wait, women, so literally the whole time he or
she has their finger like just hovering over the button.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yeah, or or just kind of on it. It seems
like there may have been some other types of you know,
controls or ways to provide input in the vehicle. You
also have, at least according to statements that that Musk
and others have made you know, on the earnings call,
some tele operation as well, So they're probably in addition
to that safety monitor is a guy sitting at a
(05:09):
desk watching the ride who is also able to intervene
one way or another world. I don't think we know
exactly what that intervention could be. It could be anywhere
from sort of giving the ROBOTAXI some commands or suggestions
all the way to you know, maybe a steering wheel
or whatever where where that person could literally take you.
(05:29):
But we don't know exactly what That tele operation.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
A lot of supervision. Now, obviously the idea is at
some point, once this thing gets you know, a little
more experience out there, the training wheels come off and
it's out on its own in the wild. Now, Kara,
who got to take these initial rides? Was it just
picking up random strangers on the street.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
So Friday night, a bunch of Tesla influencers and retail investors,
and these are accounts that you know, really are interacting
with Elon Musk get interacting with a lot of like
Tesla News at all times. That's kind of whole brand.
Got emails that said you have early access to the
Robotaxi starting Sunday, and then you know, some other Tesla
fans ended up coming in and kind of going as
(06:09):
their plus ones.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
They were allowed one guest per.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Ride, but it was really just a handful of pretty
loyal influencers for the most part.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
These are not like automotive influencers like we've seen Elon
Musk kind of include like these sort of YouTubers who
review cars and stuff in at you know, at at
at earnings calls and so on. This was like Elon
Musk influencers. These are people who are very, very very
enthusiastically on the Musk train, which Karen and I found
(06:39):
out when we tried to be asked them if they
would take us as their their plus one and were
at least in my chance in hell, yeah, repeatedly denied.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Right, Well, I can't blame them in your case now,
I don't care. I'm just getting to know you. But
in Max's case, yeah no, I also wouldn't ride in
a vehicle with you, all right, So how in general
these vehicles perform and how are they continuing to perform.
There has been there have been some videos that have
started to go a bit viral about some unconventional, shall
(07:14):
we say, driving techniques. But on the whole and these
things held up okay so far.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
They drive pretty much as any other car.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
They you know, they were doing pretty predictable driving behavior
when we were following them around. But there have been
a few videos that have shown some concerning behavior. There's
been some mild speeding, you know, a few miles over
the limit, which people are you know, humans too too,
but it is strange for a robotaxi to speed typically.
There's been one instance that a lot of people have
(07:43):
poined us particularly concerning. So there's a vehicle that was
starting to turn left, peared to maybe decided it was
going to go straight instead, and the spearing wheel really
jerked around and it started to go straight instead, and
it was going in the wrong direction, in the wrong
lane for a few seconds there and then.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
Got well, wait, so it was going into potentially into
oncoming traffic, did go it did go in downcom then,
but then it got it right two hours later, figured
it out.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It got back into them.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Well that doesn't sound good.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I mean, I almost feel like I don't need to
say this, but this is very much a demonstration, in
a very controlled demonstration, so we're evaluating it. So so
part of why Kara is bringing up these like what
they sound like very minor examples, and they are, except that, like,
this is a situation where you're where there is a
(08:35):
ton of monitoring, where they're where the roots have been
traveled over many times, where it's like a very controlled
and we're even getting the information we're getting from these
rides is also very controlled because it's being filtered through
these fans. But the thing is, like what they've done
here really is a long way from what Elon Musk
(08:57):
has said they're going to do, and what he said
they're going to do, just to remind people, is to
be able to have any tesla anywhere driving around unsupervised.
None of that is true right now. There is a
very small geographic area, a very small fleet, and there
is a ton of supervision, and I think it would
have been it would have been surprising if something really
(09:19):
bad happened with these tests. Even these minor, you know,
screw ups are a little bit surprising just because again,
this is not all that different from what we saw
in October, you know on the soundstage, right, it's just
like a charger version of that thing, and which, okay,
maybe that's some progress, but still.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
Right, which gets me to the next point, Cara, which
is despite how sort of you know, just okay, this
whole launch seemed the stock really popped yesterday Tesla stock
did it? It rallied eight percent, which by Tesla standards
because it's a very volatile stock, it's not some enormous move,
and yet eight percent is eight percent. It's certainly did
(10:00):
not go down, So I guess the market market's first
take is like, wow, this is great, big hit.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I mean, this is an event that people have
been waiting years and years for. Elon Musk has really
bet the entire company on autonomy, on AI, on the
ability to launch a network like this, and investors are
just glad it's meeting that mark on.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
A lot of levels. They will be closely watching to
see if it actually can scale from here.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Is something that even the most polish investers are really
keeping an eye on right now.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Though, Yeah, I mean, is is ten percent in a
day for Tesla a huge move. That's like it's like
a Wednesday or something.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
You know, it's nothing. Esha Day Bloomberg Tesla reporter told
me she doesn't even get up for an eight percent move.
She's Tesla, right, you yeah, for most other stocks, but no,
so yes, correct.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Look, the other thing is for this stock, eight percent
is not a huge jump. This is a very volatile stock.
But also like there were versions of this day that
could have been a lot worse. Right, One thing that
has surprised me, frankly, is how cautious Elon Musk is
being with this launch, like it in certain ways, like, yes,
(11:09):
he's putting these cars that in a lot of ways
don't seem to do the thing that he says they're
do on public roads. On the other hand, he's kept
this to be a very modest demo, I think, much
more modest than anybody believed or anybody would have thought.
Like he's he's talking about teleoperation, which is something that
it hadn't talked about before, or he had said if
(11:29):
if there was tele operation, that would be a bad sign.
So in other words, like he's being safe at least
or maybe safer than he otherwise could have been or
some of his actions like we didn't see as you know,
maybe concerning or whatever. As the incident we talked about
with the Tesla crossing over the double line is you know,
there wasn't anything worse. So maybe it's slightly beat expectations
(11:51):
that some people had.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
I do think apparently the bar was pretty damn.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Well, I'm say a very low bar. But I'm they're
also maybe like the enthusiasm may fade because like the
novelty here of being able to drive like from one
end of part of Austin to the other, it's is
gonna face.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
Yeah, it's like the boring company right where you can
go from what I want.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
One end of the yea from the Las Vegas Convention
Center to the resorts world.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
You know, Max, last week when you launched your acronym
a report.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Talking about mammoot or Madra, there were multiple, right, there
were two, you had two. It was a two fer.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
I must forgot about Madra no when you were Okay,
so when you were launching your acronyms, a bit of
a riff on Taco, Trump always chickens out. Hence uh
stock investors by stocks, we had asked our listeners our
legions of listeners to put forth any ideas they may
(12:48):
have for acronyms that could improve upon if such a
thing could be done that would improve upon mammoot. And
you know we got a brilliant idea.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, we got some fun responses. My favorite and Grant,
who responded with a lot of good ideas, but also
complaining that we hadn't seen that he had his own acronym,
which was enchilagaha.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
Way, so he launched it. He alleges he launched it before.
Speaker 6 (13:15):
Unfortunately, the time stamps uh confirm his his his launch
uh elon never completes his innovative level for autonomous driving
announcements enchilada.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
This guy obviously, you know, something of a bear. I
would I would guess. He also, in response to mamoot,
which he thought was, you know, insufficiently creative, uh, suggested
a few others with the help I believe of chat Ept,
including and now these are replacements for mamoot, which was
(13:49):
musk always makes up with Trump. These include kso Coral
until eventually snuggling online salsa spats are loud. Still amigos
guawk grudges usually aren't consistent. Burrito billionaires ultimately reconcile, regardless
of Internet tempestuous outbursts. None of them are perfect. But Grant,
(14:11):
thank you Grants for these ideas. They are all hilarious,
and I regret missing Enchilada.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Grant's given this a lot of thought.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
I know a lot to work with.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
I like just about all of them, Enchillada in particular
because there's a just a mouthful quile. It's very long,
it's slightly incomprehensible. Elon never completes his innovative level four
autonomous driving announcements. That's all good, But Kara, now that
the robotaxi is is roaming the streets of Austin, is
(14:42):
that still true? Is en shallota truer? Was the acronym
launched only immediately to be vanquished, defeated and go away?
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I think it depends on kind of where we go
from here.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
No, no, no, no, no, depends well.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Level of autonomy they're using.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
They haven't actually revealed a lot about what kind of
the text stack behind this.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Looks like level four autonomy is like a lot of
are you doing it.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Without any kind of supervision? I don't think this counts.
He's good, Kara, You think there's even a question here.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I think we need to wait and see what level
of autonomy they claim it to be, and they will
have to self report in the very least suite to Texas.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Well, wait a minute, but if there's a dude in
the vehicle with his finger always hovering over the emergency
eject button, I don't know. I mean that doesn't sound
I think Grant's good. I think is good now for now. Okay,
very good, Cara. We will talk again soon.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So good.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
We are now joined by Bloomberg ex reporter Kurt Wagner. Kurt,
welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Hi David, thank you for having me, so.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Listen, Kurt. Let me just get this out of the
way and get it off my chest. But fuck you, Kurt.
Speaker 7 (15:57):
Okay, Max and I been sweating it out on the
mean streets of Manhattan, earning an honest living, and you're
sipping Royal vespers and taking in the sea breeze at
La Belle Epoc.
Speaker 5 (16:11):
What kind of gig is this that you have?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I feel like this wasn't even the worst introduction you've
ever given me on this show, so I feel like,
you know, by that standard, I'm actually moving up in
the world. That's right, David. While you were sweating here
in New York, I was sweating in the south of France.
And it's a hard life out there, you know, you
get up early at the meetings.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
You know, looking out at the French River.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I expect you to understand. But yes, I was at
Canlon's last week, the Wonderful Advertising Festival. For those who
are unfamiliar, it's essentially everybody in the world who is
involved in the ad industry, from you know, the big
players like the Metas and Youtubes and Googles of the world,
to these agencies to the creators who are now making
(16:58):
a living on this. They all show up and and
spend a week together sort of cutting deals and boondoggling
and all that kind of stuff. So it was a
good time.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
Now, what was Ex's presence there, because I feel like
just last year its presence was kind of odd, unique,
and how did it play out this year?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So last year was interesting because Elon showed up himself
and I believe he did a keynote with WPP, one
of the largest ad agencies in the world, I believe,
the largest ad agency, and he kind of signaled, hey,
this is important to me by physically showing up and
giving his time. In years past, X formerly known as Twitter,
(17:39):
had literally like a beachside setup, you know, they set
up there was a concerts that they had, they would
hold the all there. I was. That was back in
the day. This was you know, pre COVID. When I
was there this week, I did not see a single
X branded sign throughout the entire conference. Just to give
(18:01):
you a sense, like TikTok took over an entire hotel,
essentially Meta takes over multiple floors of a hotel, has
a giant beachside thing, you know, like everyone is throwing
their logo in your face. Essentially you can't walk down
the street without seeing these things, just just like right
in front of you. X was nowhere to be seen.
And I thought that was very notable.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
So how do I interpret this, Kurt? Are they just
giving up? What does this mean?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So there's two ways.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I think there's a I'll give maybe the positive X
version and the more critical X version.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I think the.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Positive is it's not very doge to go to can
right like it is not.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
For all the reasons I stated at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, yeah, Saysten, we're cutting We're cutting into it a
little bit. Okay, fine, I'll admit it's not the most
doge thing to go to. Can It's it's definitely a show, right,
It's a it's a bit of a circus. And so
if you are X and Elon is running your company,
maybe the last thing you want to do is be
seen out here kind of frivolously spending money for a
(19:03):
Diplo concert on the beach. I shouldn't say that Yahoo
hosted a Diplo concert. I did go and it was
pretty fun, so, you know, sorry for sorry to use
that as the example. Yah was a great time. But
my point is like, maybe Elon is not wanting to
be seen doing that kind of stuff right now. That's
the positive like reason why X might not be visible.
The more negative is that, quite frankly, they either don't
(19:24):
have the money to do those kinds of things or
they're no longer in that tier as an advertiser.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
What do you mean they don't have the money there?
They're a unit of Xai. Xai has got money coming
out the ear.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
When I hear about Kurt talking about X's advertising business,
I have that feeling of when you hear about a
really old celebrity who you thought had already passed away
like years ago. Like it's like, oh yeah, X has
an advertising is I completely forgot because David, like you said,
they are now part of Xai, and it really seems
(19:56):
like this whole part, you know, this whole soilent.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
They're simply soilent for the Xai robots.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Not necessarily the metaphor I would have used, but yes,
that's exactly what I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That's the cynical way to look at it, right, is
that x is sort of now the you know, the
any money they make is sort of bravy, and it's
the back burner to this much more important thing, which
is that they're using the data to power Xai and
that's really all that matters. And so you know, if
that's the way that that X is, it's certainly nowhere
near the kind of top of the conversation that it
(20:31):
was several years ago in the advertising industry. But maybe
it has a different purpose now to your point.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
But now, Max, it just said a minute ago that
oh my god, right, X advertising, you know, it's just
a corpse, it's a cadaver. It's it's it's long since past.
But I actually thought there was reporting, including perhaps from you,
that indicated there's been a bit of a of an
uptick in advertising revenue over there at X.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, we talked about this a few months ago and
it came up again this week. So way back in February,
I wrote this newsletter that essentially said, hey, we're seeing
it up to an advertising Elon Musk is out here
saying the quote unquote a boycott is essentially over or
soon to be over, like what gibs, right, And what
I heard and what I put in this newsletter was
(21:20):
essentially that everyone in the ad industry is terrified of
not advertising on X because at the time, the owner
of the company was bff with the President of the
United States and they were suing people who didn't advertise there. Right,
So there was this implicit sort of idea that hey,
if we don't spend money on X, we are going
to be sued, and it has been talked about for
(21:43):
several months. The couple days maybe a day before the
conference started last week, the Wall Street Journal had a
more detailed version of that story that said, the lawyers
for X are literally calling some of these advertisers and
making this threat explicit, right, you advertise with us or
we will sue you, and that.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
The illegal argument is kurt. The legal argument is, uh,
what what's the legal argument?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, I'm not an anti trust lawyer. The claim is
that this is anti competitive and that these brands are
sort of colluding to damage X's business. Now, I have
never really heard of a boycott being considered anti competitive,
anti trust, right. I mean, think about how people vote
(22:32):
with their their wallets all day, every day, right, And
there's never been any kind of sort of to my knowledge,
like pushback on this from all illegality standpoint. When you
think about what Elon in particular and Linda really have
said about free speech, it's quite comical to think that,
you know, hey, spend money on our product or we
(22:54):
will sue you. Oh, by the way, we're free speech absolutists.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
To me, those things do not really go hand in hand.
But again, on the eve of this conference, essentially this
story comes out that paints X in quite a negative light. Again,
it's not totally new. We've been talking about this for months,
but it did set a stage, i would say, for
discussions around next At the event, and a bunch of
people that I talked to last week pointed out like
this is pretty shady stuff. If this is indeed what's
(23:20):
happening to people.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Yeah, I mean, Max, I guess I don't understand if
they are doing this and they're allowed to do this,
I guess I just don't know where it ends like
to me. Then, I suppose the hot dog vendor at
the street is, you know, his sales pitches by this
hot dog or I'll punch you in the face. The
guy selling shovel says, by this shovel or I will
(23:44):
beat you with it. I mean, it's pretty darn odd like.
And I don't, well, I guess if it's working in
the short term, I suppose, God bless him. But man,
it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Seem still is it working? I mean the data.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Kurt said that he's got reporting that says revenue is
ticking back up.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah, I just again, like you sort of would wonder
if we're seeing maybe token purchases, small purchases to deal
with the threat rather than well it.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Just Kurt, that is the would token purchases of ads
be enough to drive that pick up and add revenue
that you talked about.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yes, at scale, because remember the numbers are quite small. Right.
I mean, this is not like a one hundred billion
dollar annual revenue company where someone spending ten million bucks
gets totally lost in the sauce. It's like they're making
you know, two zero point five billion dollars in annual revenue.
So if suddenly you have, you know, a dozen advertisers
(24:43):
that all could you know, spending ten million plus dollars
or whatever it is, that's going to actually be a notable,
noticeable jump in revenue. Small but noticeable. So I do
think the token thing is is sort of a real
and if you are a giant advertiser, you have to
weigh like, is ten million dollars worth sort of the
(25:04):
public drama of being sued by X and going through
a multi year lawsuit. And I think a lot of
brands would just say, you give money enough.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
You just give them the money and run the ad.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
But is this a sustainable thing? Right? Like to Max's point, like, Okay,
maybe there's an uptick this year, but like, this is
not the sign of a healthy business when you have
to force your clients to spend with you at risk
of lawsuit.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Okay, Kurt so CEO Linda y Eckarino sat down with
an Axios reporter for a panel there at kind and
it got a little sporty tell us briefly about it.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Well, we talked about that story that came out, and
so Linda was asked about this on stage. I believe
it's on Monday of can so, the very first day
of the conference, and essentially, instead of you know, either
acknowledging yes, we are doing this or even disputing it,
the real feedback was like she trashed the Wall Street Journal.
(25:59):
You know, was like, and we.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Will still read that publication.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Right, and the whole notion. And you guys are familiar
with this because you cover Elon and have paid attention
to Elon for years, but like, this is a pretty
tried and true strategy from sort of el Dusk as well, right,
which is like someone writes something that he doesn't like
or in this case, she doesn't like, and the response is, well,
I'm just going to bash the journalism. I'm going to
bash that outlet and those reporters and sort of cast
(26:26):
doubt on the story that way. And so that's what
we saw. But it was a kind of an awkward
way to start the week, right, everyone's there to potentially
do these deals and and.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Perhaps give x big checks for money for ads.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
But instead of starting that way, it really started with
this sort of combative conversation with Linda, and and it
did come up several times throughout my discussions that week.
Is just sort of like it wasn't really a great
look for her or X on the eve or the
beginning of this important conference.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
A bit of a buzzkill.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
The other thing I'm thinking about as Kurt is talking
about this, we talked last week about cash burn at XAI. Yes,
I think a billion dollars a month was the figure
that we had from our reporting. I mean, there's a
lot of cash going out of this combined company, and
for x.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
It's mostly just going to be for the debt, right,
I mean they've sacked a huge chunk of their workforce
and right, I mean, yeah, you're right, they are believing.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I'm just saying there's not that much revenue coming in
to this operation, either from the AI side or from
the advertising side.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
Yeah. I mean that fundraise apparently, which they are still
doing right now for XAI, of which x is now
a unit, apparently came a touch too late for the
big con party. They had that money come in. You
know they would you know, that's where Kurt would have
been hanging out on Thursday nights.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
It would have been doing a double.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
Okay, now, Kurt, don't hang up, don't leave us.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
But I got a couple of quick things rapid fire
for Max and if you have some clever thought, some epiphany, sir,
great way in the shouted out Max, there was another
exploding rocket.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, over the weekend, a starship rocket doing a static
fire test. That's a kind of test where they fire
the engine while it's it's on the ground. It exploded.
I think in the statement SpaceX called it like a
significant anomaly or something like that.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
But yes, it was a bad They say the darnedest
things they do. You got to give them credit. They
have rocket engineers.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Is funny, right. Anyway, this was bad. This was not
something they expect, especially, and.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
It's bad because they just keep happening one after the
after another, like.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
The third fourth, Yeah, I think maybe the fourth trier
we've had it not go exactly right. If Lauren Grush,
you know, our colleague and Bloomberg Aerospace reporter, were here,
she just got Curt. She would say that like, look,
this is these are experimental crafts. Explosions are not totally
uncommon or or necessarily even unexpected.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
Sorry, wasn't it and maybe you already said this, But
wasn't it simply refueling?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
It was a fuel mishap. There was an explosion while
they were loading fuel in Uh. Yeah, definitely not supposed
to happen, and they're investigating it. And I do think
while these are experimental craft each time something like this happens,
it pushes the timeline back a little bit. And this
is a company that is very much under the gun
(29:34):
if they want to meet Elon Musk's very very aggressive
timelines for sending these rockets, you know, towards Mars or
even set putting them to tests that could lead them
to go to Mars. So definitely a setback. You know,
on top of the issues that we've talked about for
the last few weeks with Trump and the former NASA
point e.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Now we also had a revelation of sort On Musk's
computer situation.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yeah, this is where I want Kurt's input here, because
a lot of people were surprised that in the legal
filings between open AI and Elon Musk in the dispute
between Sam Altman and Elon Musk open Ai and Elon Musk.
Elon's team essentially said he does not have a computer
and that, like the open Ai, I had been expecting,
(30:23):
you know, emails or documents from his computer. I guess
they got some from his phone, but his lawyer said,
no computer. And a lot of people are surprised by this.
And my reaction, Kurt, was, is it really that surprising.
I feel like Elon's not the only CEO who goes
or claims to go without a computer. Yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I actually wasn't surprised at that at all. For the
same reason Max. I remember in the book I wrote Battle.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
For the Bird.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
By the way, by it read it?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, by it read it?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Please.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Jack Dorsey, the co founder and former CEO of Twitter,
did his entire job from his smartphone. You know what
I mean. He had an iPad that he used from
time to time. But really, I mean, like this is
a guy running.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
That's like very you know, elderly I don't know, or
child of him or something.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I like, Yeah, but I mean like this guy wasn't
just running Twitter. He was running Square now Block at
the same time. So a CEO of two publicly traded
tech companies who did his entire job from his phone, right,
And so, I, I mean, it's hard for me to
imagine Elon's sitting down at his laptop and typing away.
I think we know he did, because he's posted some
some screenshots of a laptop at one point that The
(31:27):
only reason I remember is they were like really smudgy
and gross, and everyone was like, Oh, your screen looks
really looks really gross. You need to clean it. So
I do remember some of that, But no, I'm not
surprised to hear he he works from a phone.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I suspect that laptop is his gaming piece, like he
does play a lot of computer games. But yeah, like
these guys have assistance and stuff as well, Like what
what what would you need a computer for? If you're
Elon Musk.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
You've got he's got what's what the hell is the
name of his robot. He's got optimists Optimist. Yeah, and
he's got like a he's got a hole flock of
Optimi around him that just at his beck a call.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
I would be surprising if you saw Elon Lake typing
away at a laptop, I'd say, unless he was playing
a computer game. Or composing a meme.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
Kurt Wagner. Thanks as always, Max.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Thanks David.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
This episode was produced by Stacy Wong and edited by Annamasirakas,
Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Percell fact checks. Our
supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. The elon Ink theme is
written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. Brendan
Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is
ahead of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks as always to
(32:46):
our supporters Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos.
If you have a minute, rate and review our show,
it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.
Host
David Papadopoulos
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