June 3, 2025 • 35 mins
Elon Musk’s highly publicized and arguably brand destructive tenure as President Donald Trump’s would-be hatchet man has supposedly drawn to a close. His foray into politics has resulted in tens of thousands of federal workers losing their jobs, the attempted shuttering or gutting of federal agencies (with grim consequences for the world’s poorest) and a growing pile of lawsuits challenging as illegal much of what he did. Add to that his failed bankrolling of a Wisconsin judicial candidate and growing global disdain for him personally, and it’s no wonder the South Africa-native would want to head back to the office.
In this episode of Elon, Inc. David Papadopoulos is joined by Max Chafkin and Sarah Frier to analyze just how damaged Musk really is and what his future ambitions might be. After cavorting around Washington and Mar-a-Lago for months, he appears to be rechristening himself as a businessman (instead of Daddy Warbucks of the far-right). Recent interviews with Bloomberg, CBS and the Washington Post certainly make it seem like he wants us to believe that. But on the other hand, his latest X post on the massive Republican spending bill might mean he’s not quite ready to leave the political spotlight.
The crew also go through a number of Musk news items from last week, including successful fundraising, some confusing Grok deals that might not actually happen and an explosive report from The New York Times regarding his custody battles and alleged ketamine use.
Finally, the trio tries to figure out the origin of that shiner Musk sported at Friday’s press conference in the Oval Office. He blamed his five-year-old son. Although the parents on the panel find that believable, they also go through a list of other suspects.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you
we have a new star.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
A star is born Elon mars Juthan Kennemy.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.
I feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight
percent really appreciate what he does. But those two percent
that are nasty, they are I'll pay in four post.
We were meant for great things in the United States
of America, and Elon reminds us of that we don't
have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk. Welcome
(00:46):
to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday,
June third. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. So Elon got
his farewell from the President last week. Today it's about
a man named Elon and he's one of the greatest
business leaders and innovators the world has ever produced. And
(01:07):
he is now sort of kind of back with his
company's twenty four to seven so right on c Reports
emerged of him raising billions of dollars from investors, making
babies and apparently, according to the New York Times doing
Lots and lots of drugs. To talk about Elon's big
week back in business. I'm sitting here with two of
(01:28):
our stalwarts, Sarah Friar, team leader for Big Tech coverge
here at Bloomberg Sarah, Hello, Hello, And Max Chafkin BusinessWeek
superstar Max.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hello, Hey, David, Hey Sarah.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Max. I saw the other day that your Mets are
winning baseball games.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh my god, I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
That explains a smile.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, yeah, they're They're looking great.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Okay, nice, And you know, Elon may be leaving DC
behind Max, but the story keeps following him. Just one
day after that big sendoff in the Oval Office, Trump
abruptly pulled the NASA nomination. A Musk business associate and
close allied, Jared Isaacman to me, it is exhibit a
of the defeat of Elon Musk and Washington and illustrates
(02:10):
the greatly diminished state he's left it in. I suspect
I will get some pushback on this point though, from
Max and Sarah. We'll start, though, with the drug allegations,
the money and the babies. Max. The New York Times
splashed a big report last week on Elon's drug use,
(02:31):
including ketamine. Give us some of the details.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, and we should say Elon Musk has now denied
this report.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Denied it repeatedly, repeatedly.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think he said the Times is making stuff up.
The Times that stood by it. The report gives you
a portrait essentially of Musk's behavior over the last year
and connects it to what sources are describing to The
Times as fairly extensive drug use.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Now, we of course knew.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
That Elon Musk has smoked pot. We know that he's
used ketamine.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
The I mean, he's admitted to the ketamine use in
the past.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yerescribed I think anyone.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
They are parts of this report suggesting, for instance, he'd
use some party drugs on various occasions that I don't
think was super surprising. But the most significant thing in
this story on drug use is that Elon Musk was
telling associates that he had what sounds like a was
using ketamine pretty heavily, and that he was using, in
(03:36):
fact so heavily that he was experiencing some side effects,
including bladder proms, which is one of the one of
the common side effects from ketamine use. So that was
in the story But then the other thing that is
maybe more troubling was sort of a suggestion that his
behavior that he was sort of using ketamine, using these
(03:58):
drugs all trying to run his companies while trying to
run the US government, and that he was impaired. And
I'd say in that way, it was kind of the
most serious allegations that we've seen about his drug use
to date.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
That said, there was not like, I don't know if
I missed it in the story, but there was not
like a specific instance of you know, we know Musk
was on drugs when he did this thing.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's correct, Sarah, You are right. I mean, there's at
some point they put, you know, a couple of things
side by side, the drug use next to his odd
behavior at that campaign event in Pennsylvania, which he was
jumping around on stage, But at no point, you are right,
do they say in the story that he was acting
this way on this day because of drugs.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
It's a portrait of a guy who seems to the
outside world to be out of control in a whole
bunch of ways, with reporting that suggests that the same
time he was behaving erratically, he was talking to people.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
About using drugs. Fairly heavily.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Now we should say a lot of the these drugs
in the Time story are not illegal drugs, right Ketamine
Musk has said he's using under a prescription. Now, of
course you could have a prescription from ketamine and still
be abusing it. The Times mentions this daily pill box
containing some adderall. Now, of course a lot of people
take adderall to manage you know, adult ADHD or whatever.
(05:20):
So so none of this on its own, I think
would be that concerning if you're like an investor or
even a close friend of Elon Musk. But it's the
kind of just juxtaposition that that Sarah's bringing up that raises.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Question, And I think the piece says that there was
at some point this blurry line between what was medically
prescribed and what was just recreational use.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
There was one one other note in the story that
I found really interesting, which is that SpaceX, as a
government contractor, has to run a drug free workplace, and
there was sourcing in the story that Musk is getting
heads up on those drug tests before they happen so
(06:04):
that he can more easily pass them. So that was
another detail besides the bladder detail. The twenty pills in
the pillbox detail that built a picture of ways in
which this is becoming more routine for him, more integrated
with his every day and like well known to his associates.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I just want to say on that point, the Times
did reach out to SpaceX and SpaceX did not respond.
When are the Times seeking comment?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And I guess the other thing there is that fact
is important because Musk has repeatedly said that he's, you know,
drug tested continuously. He's tested clean continuously.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
And Kristin grind who who authored this one of the
authors on this story. She also wrote the book on
Tony Shea, who, as as is well known now died
of an overdose and her book goes deeply into the
history of ketamine abuse by that CEO of zaz And
(07:01):
and his escalation into other drugs and how it how
it changed thinking and and so one thing I've learned
from from that is the side effects include a lot
of amnesia, a lot of of distortion of reality, a
lot of confusion over what has happened, a lot of
(07:21):
paranoia is common in ketamine abuse. So I think that
that maybe why there was a lot of juxtaposition with
with scenes in this story of Musk, you know, either
attacking people or concerned about his companies, or having different
versions of the same reality. And I think the most
(07:45):
striking thing to me that was news to me I
didn't I didn't hear about with Tony say, but the
bladder issues just seem so painful. And what I was
reading the medical literature on that looks like irreversible if
it gets to that point.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
No, irreversible doesn't sound good.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
There was a whole other dimension in this story that
that kind of pertains to this because it's again sort
of more behavior that seems kind of erratic. And it
was about Elon Musk's love life, right, about Musk saying
different things to different women.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
So Grimes believe for a time that she was in
a monogamous relationship with Elon Musk.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Mistake.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Ashley Sinclair also believed that she was in a monogamous
relationship with Elon Musk. According to her, we also got
some detail on the terms of the settlement.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
At It was a lot of money her in order
to keep it sifteen million dollars up front and one
hundred thousand dollars per month. According to documents that the
time says it saw and Ashley Saint Clair said, nograsias,
and she said, I will no, I will see you.
I believe in court. They are in court now.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And one thing, I mean, look, this is kind of
a side alley or whatever. Maybe this is not the
most important thing in this story, but it really did
raise a question of how sincere he is in his
pro natalism versus is he just sort of out of control?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And so maybe some combo of the two, right.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, some combo of the two, right, because it is
not a portrait of somebody who is fully in control.
I will say there is a potential number fifteen in
this story, Sinclair saying that he told her that he
had fathered children all over the world, including one with
a Japanese FLT star, which would be a new baby,
(09:28):
and that.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Apparently he was or is just offering his sperm to
any woman out there that we knew. I thought we did.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I missed that in the journal story. I was in
there sperm to somebody via direct message.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I guess I suppose I had blocked that out of
my mind.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Now I went on a little bit of a rabbit
hole trying to find the Japanese pop star to see
if this had indeed happened.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Are there any did you fly to Tokyo for this?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
No, this happened on the internet, but I.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Was not able to Finally, we should treat this as
an unconfirmed report until we received further confirmation.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Got it?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I wrote.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
The last thing on this subject I will note is
The Times. Both in the story and then in their
podcast in which they talked about it, they kept using
the term brood, which a brood of kids, which to me,
I mean usually broods like an animals. And I don't
know that it was just struck me as odd. Max.
I guess they suppose they figured once you get to
(10:30):
a certain number, it's no longer just a conventional family
of this now.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
When you there just isn't a lot of precedent for
having this many children, Like I think it's hard to
come up with. I don't know that we have a
term for a large amount of human children this low.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
You know, this big was so apparently not. I think
The Times is you know, working, but.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
They have Sarah Fryar other things that happened in the
last past few days. Elon Musk is raising a lot
of money. It would seem tell us about it.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yeah, so a few things are happening at once. Let
me pull up my list here. So there is the
five billion that he wants for Xai.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
There is, by the way, five billion, to be clear,
five billion via the debt market, not in.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Ex the debt market exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
So that's debt for Xai, which is a which is
part of Xai Holdings, which is simultaneously in discussions to
raise twenty billion in equity. And then he separately had
a raise for Neuralink, his brain technology company. That that
(11:48):
was the six hundred and fifty million round. And he's also,
according to the Financial Time, selling three hundred million in
Xai stock through a secondary offering. So lots of lots
of capital raises happening at once for his companies. Maybe
trying to make the most of this return to his
(12:10):
corporate life in what he says will be a full
time manner and realizing that these companies that he needs
more money to do the things he wants to do.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Important to differentiate between what has been announced, which is
the right and these Xai numbers, which according to.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
The reports are still in marketing stage.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
They're they're just asking for it.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
So like yeah, like you're asking for.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
It also like five billion dollars, but it doesn't necessarily mean.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That I'm going to can I tell you something? Though
much more likely to do usive billion than Max Schafflin. Yeah,
I'll give you now when you.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Dang GPUs do you need that so many?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, when you dangle an interest rate of over ten
percent on the debt, that certainly helps. And apparently the
interest rate they're offering you somewhere around twelve Morgan Stanley
time bank to mister Musk is handling the deal. I
will say, Max, you know, it's funny because Morgan Stanley
the other banks just finally finally got that godfor's sake,
and Twitter dead off its books. Twitter now of course
(13:12):
x which is now of course part of Xai. And
as soon as they finally managed to get it off
their books after they were nursing it forever and couldn't
pawn it off on anybody, bang, we hit the market
with another five billion.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I mean, like, if you're a banker, working with Elon
Musk is a good bet, even if you're not necessarily
crazy about any particular deal.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Like he's got a lot of private equity to sell.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
All right, Max. Last thing in this space another deal
that happened or almost happened, kind of happened then didn't happen,
is Groc and Telegram. This is the.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Second one of these.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
So the Telegram CEO tweeted or East or whatever about
a big deal with Groc that they were going to
integrate Grock into into Telegram or something, and a bunch
of news outlets wrote about it.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
This is pretty similar to the story we.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Talked about two weeks ago about Calshi announcing a deal
and then Elon Musk showed up on Twitter and said
no deal has been signed. This kind of like weird
public feuding with a potential partner. This is a potentially
a large deal now. Look, Telegram, unlike Calshi, is a
very controversial business. The founder, Pavel d'urrov I believe, is
(14:23):
not an uncomplicated guy. There are regulators around the world
who have problems with the way Telegram handles like illegal
content in going through its service. Look, we don't know
the backstory, so who knows, But like, looking at this
report in light of what we read in the Times.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Like it just it does seem it seems odd right.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Well, also just for us to reply publicly on X
saying nothing is signed, and then for Pavel d'ov to
reply to that saying, correct, we're just in late stage
discussions Like those weren't his exact words, but he was
like trying to keep the relationship it proceeding ahead with
a steal, as opposed to taking Musk's very pointed statement
(15:06):
that nothing was happening.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I'll tell you what I think is going on here.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Please do But and this is just speculation, but you know,
Elon Musk, that's what this show is.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Max, He's a famous I got it, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Just remember he's a famously hands on ceo his empire,
especially now, especially with his kind of political engagement, which
continues even with this White House event, and he's running
more companies than he's ever run. Like, I think it's
just gotten harder for all of these companies, especially these startups.
You know, Grok is sort of like a startup to operate,
(15:38):
they need Elon musk sign off for everything. And and
my supposition is some of these deals that are being
announced have been announced without.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
The underlings are getting out over their skis anything you
didn't consult with the doge father first?
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Exactly right, okay, or he made the deals and he's
forgetting possible as well.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Possible does father the dose father, like all fathers, tend
to forget a lot of that they do. And say,
moving back to Washington for a second, Max, because over
the weekend, just when you think Elon is leaving Washington
(16:18):
and he's closing that chapter of his life, bang, big
explosion reports start coming out. I believe it was initially
reported anonymously with sources, then confirmed by the White House
Trump truth that did it start with the truth.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
There was a reporter Trump on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That Musk Skuy Jared Isaac Man, close business associate has
been up in SpaceX, you know, traveling across across space.
Someone who's in put a lot of money into SpaceX.
I believe, was suddenly out as Trump's pick to lead NASA.
That's quite a parting gift, Max, on your way out
the door.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Well, it's not a parting gift.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Like to stop this, Like, first of all, Trump said,
Elon's sticking around. Elon said, Elon sticking around. We know
there's tons of lobbying going on. Elon is lobbying for
transportation rules around driverless cars. He's lobbying right now for
the Senate to change the big beautiful bill to to
keep these EV credits in place. This is an ongoing
(17:24):
negotiation with two with allies, but allies in Elon Musk
and Donald Trump, who have somewhat different interests. I would
say that beyond any kind of like anonymous report that
we've seen out of Trump world, beyond anything that like
Steve Bannon or any of the other kind of adversaries
that Elon has connected to Trump have said, this is
(17:46):
the single.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Most significant thing.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
This is the like the one the biggest thing that
has happened to get you to say, huh, I wonder
if Elon Musk and Trump are good because this was
like Elon's guy, as you said, he had also cleared
his committee hearing, right, he was going to get confirmed.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
And the explanation, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
The replacement CEO for himself at his company exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And the explanation is kind of thin.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
The explanation is that Trump found out that he had
made donations to Democratic politicians, which, of course, like that's
a public record. There's also reporting to suggest that that
Trump had already known about this, that said, like, I
don't know that we know the whole story here.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Max, I think I'm curious what you think of just
like sometimes I think when with Trump, the simplest answer
is sometimes the right one. And I have seen no
reporting to back me up on this.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You think he just forgot no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
I think that that Trump was on the campaign trail
talking about Elon Musk's big, beautiful rockets that are going
to take us to Mars. I think that he really
believed in that idea, and the rockets have been exploding
on the launch pad. And so if I'm Trump, I'm
looking at that and thinking, you know, do we really
(19:09):
want to be all in on this direction? It's just
it's just, you know, symbolism to Trump matters.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
A lot our listeners. Another one did blow up last week. Actually,
I don't rely reminder.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
We forget anything to do with this.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
This is the This is how many now in what
period of time, like.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Three in a row, where they've had mishaps.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
And they're not going to just argue that, Hey, we're
just iterating these kind of explosions are all part of
the learning process. Don't sweat at Chafkin. We're going there.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
They are arguing that, and they.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Are that they're also exploding billions of dollars into Sinaire.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, and it's like Sarah saying, Trump would be on
the campaign trail and he had this bit that people
probably remember where we talked about the arms grabbing the rockets.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Like a baby.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
He did a little version of it actually in the
Oval office the other day during Elon's you know, farewell
at and so, you know, whatever the argument is about,
like oh, this was just a test launch or whatever,
we did not get the beautiful arms, you know, cuddling
the rocket like a baby or whatever Trump might have
liked to see. And on top of that, you have pushback,
(20:15):
right of like you have you have senators, you have
NASA folks, you have people who don't necessarily want to
just like take a hard pivot with NASA, which is
the what Jared Isaacman and Elon Muska want to do.
I also do think it's possible that like Trump just
kind of forgot about Jared Isaacman's donations to Democrats, or
(20:35):
he kind of spaced when someone was telling him or
or someone convinced him that actually, like this is a
this is a big issue. I mean, these were very
recent donations. I mean as recent as the twenty twenty
four election. It's not like he was a Democrat twenty
years ago. And no fair, fair, but I think it's
possible that the like face value explanation offered from Donald
(20:57):
Trump is true.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Okay, I will just say in counterpoint here, hearing all
that and appreciating all that and seeing your points of view,
I will say that Musk himself was quoted in this
very good Atlantic piece. And by the way, this Atlantic
piece are just simply pulling in this case here from
an old pressure he gave. He said, this whole doze
thing I'm doing, this is a way to make a
lot of enemies and not that many friends. And I
(21:20):
think it's also possible that some of those enemies, and
it is a big, big, big list of enemies he
has made in Washington, d C. It's distinctly possible that
more and more and more of them are around the
president and in his year saying hey, let's sandbag these
Musk initiatives. Not in so many words, that's not how
they present it to Trump. I mean, I would say,
when I think about how Washington, d C in some
(21:43):
ways really roughed up elon Musk and the amount of
enemies he made there. There is a very good piece
that The Atlantic ran recently in which the opening scene
is Scott Besson, the Secretary of the Treasury, in a
fight with Musk. Also, by the way, about a pick
in this case, who's going to run the IRS? And
(22:05):
to be clear, Musk also was defeated there. Bessen ultimately
got his guy to head the IRS, and Musk guy
out was ousted. The story opens with Bessn't shouting at
the top of his lungs at Musk, g you, this
is all happening right outside the Oval office, and it's
going up and down the quarters of the White House.
(22:28):
At what point, according to the piece, the two men
are their faces are just inches apart. And this, apparently,
according to this piece and according to reporting we've done
and others have done, is a window into I would argue, Max,
the animosity that has been building there against us. Another
interesting thing that the piece points out is, you remember
that thing that Musk and the Doose team were demanding
(22:50):
that bureaucrats do, where they had to like send a
weekly email saying, hey, here's the three yeah, here the
three things we've done this week. Apparently everybody who was
just ignored it, and the Atlantic, as someone quoted anonymously
saying somebody close to Trump saying how many people were
fired because they didn't send in their three things a
week or whatever the it was. I think that everyone
(23:12):
is ready to move on from this part of the administration.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, Look, there has been this has existed from the
moment elon Musk like not to Washington, right, there has
been a lot of skepticism from others in Trump world
about whether he really knew what he was doing. You know,
there's lots of questions, right, his connections to China. This
is like he's had adversaries all along. And I think
(23:36):
you're right that as he's become more politically unpopular, as
it became clear, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And his popularity, his approval ratings have been sinking.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Joge is not good for the Trump administration.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Like if the goal is just like maximizing for approval
numbers or whatever, they would be running away from this
as fast as they can, which I guess to somebody
sent they.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Are now Sarah. He has been interestingly, Musk been doing
suddenly lots and lots of interviews with the legacy media
and super keen to talk about space and super keen
not to talk about politics. Let's listen to a recent
interview he did with CBS wondering what your thought is
on the ban on foreign students the proposal. I mean
(24:16):
you were one of those kids, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Mean I think we want to stick to, you know,
the subject of the day, which is like spaceships as
opposed to you know, presidential policy.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Oh okay, I was sold anything is good.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
But no, well no, it's funny hearing somebody discover in
real time.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah, you must sometimes changes his mind.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
No, any event, Sarah, the it feels a little bit
like the rebrand and after you know, Tesla and in general,
the Musk brand was damaged quite a bit during his
time in Washington. Perhaps the rebranding and.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Is a foot Yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
I mean I think you saw Tesla stocks or after
he declared that he was done with Washington. However true
or not that will turn out to be. I think
investors are looking forward to this. They see Musk really
driven to prove everyone wrong, that he can turn around
(25:21):
his companies and get driver lists, taxis on the road
and get to Mars and build out the Colossus Data
Center in Memphis. I think that there's like so many
plates he's spinning with really big, high stakes things that
need to be accomplished. Neuralink is having a big year,
(25:41):
as we've discussed, and wanting to put their chips and
dozens of people. So it is kind of a crucial
time at all of these businesses. But they all still
need Washington's backing, like every single one of them. Neuralink
needs the FDA. The driver his cars need a ton
of government approval spasics. As we've talked about, this is
(26:04):
not going to be a clean break. And if Trump
truly is disillusioned with Musk and ready to put him aside,
which it doesn't look like that's you know, he still
has really nice things to say about him. They had
dinner recently.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Well, Sarah, he certainly likes he certainly likes Musk's money.
I would say that, so, I mean I would.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
But but it turns out there was that detail in
that Whilester's journal story that the hundred million that he's
committed to Trump's pack hasn't.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Come a little bit like the derived Wait a minute,
it's just like the Calshi deal and the groc telegram deal.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
I think, I mean, I like, I think I might
have said this last week.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I mean, I think they are negotiating in public, and
like Trump and Musk, Trump and Musk over you know,
various asks that Musk has which are going to be,
you know, not necessarily easy for Trump to deliver, which
is why he hasn't delivered them yet. And Musk, of course,
is has this has a really important point of leverage
(27:06):
over Trump, as you mentioned, David, which is that he
can conceivably give hundreds of millions of dollars to Trump's pack,
or to midterm candidates, or to jd Vance, or to anyone.
And I think that's why you heard him in that
excellent Bloomberg interview that we talked about a couple weeks ago, saying,
I don't you know, I would give if I saw
(27:26):
a need, but I don't see a need yet. Like
it was very much the kind of thing you would say, me,
make me see it, agotiating, make me.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
See that need, Help me see that need. Talk to me. Okay, Max, So,
by the magic of editing, you and I were back
here in the studio again, Pal, how you're doing. So
we're here because Musk, shortly after we finished taping, went
on a bit of a rant, an ex rant, max
(27:55):
ripping the big beautiful bill that Donald Trump is pushing
through Congress. Man.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
It was hot, yeah, and he had criticized it to
some extent earlier. Trump had even addressed that criticism during
their press conference, but this took things up a notch.
I'm gonna read from the Ekes that was posted at
one thirty pm. As you said after we finished recording,
I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive,
(28:25):
outrageous Porkfield Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame
on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
You'd know it, I mean know it harsh.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I will say, not criticizing the president there, criticizing Republican
congress people.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yes, But if Trump calls it a big beautiful bill
and Musk calls it a disgusting abomination, man, that puts
him at pretty opposite end of the spectrum. And I
also point out the very beginning, as you read so beautifully,
maxim was beauty for rendering of the heks, but the
very beginning, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore,
(29:07):
implying clearly that he's been keeping a lot of this within.
He had hinted in the past that he was against
some of the some of this fiscal bill and some
of the pork that goes through. And to be clear,
you know, as somebody who as the Doge Father, was
trying to cut government spending, shrink the deficit, this big
beautiful mill will only add to the deficit quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yeah, undeniably. It makes him look bad.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
And we talked about this when we were talking about
Doge way back when that all this talk about cutting deficits. Meanwhile, Trump,
you know, is also talking about these you know, massive
spending increases via these tax cuts.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
This has kind of been simmering along.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
To me, this is probably just a continuation of the
negotiation that I mentioned.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
When we record the show, the Grand Bargain.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
He you know, there are.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Things that he wants in this bill. He has talked
about what he wants in this bill publicly. He wants
these ev tax credits. He also earlier in the day
he was complaining that the US is falling behind on soular.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
You know that that China. So so there are things
he wants so he doesn't like he wants his own pork.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
But I think clearly this is ideological for Elon Musk
in addition to being practical.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Well, I think he does believe that the government and
so so I think some of that.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
So I think that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
You also, you know, there is a danger in a
negotiation that it can turn into a fight, right that
that like that what he's doing here is dice and
puts Trump in a kind of a difficult position because Trump,
because Musk is a big donor, because he has a
huge footprint. We actually already saw Carolyn Levitt, the Press Secretary,
respond to this, saying Trump is well aware of Elon's
(30:47):
feelings about the buildings.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
He thinks it's still big and it's still beautiful. So
we're moving ahead.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
But I suspect at some point, not necessarily today, but
at some point in the near future, Trump himself will respond.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Just one last thing, David. You know, Musk has also
been retweeting various Senators, Mike Lee as well as Thomas Massey.
He is essentially allying himself with the kind of hawkish,
the budget hawkish, the sort of Freedom Caucus, the hawks
wing of the Republican Party. Not you shouldn't read this
and thing. Oh Musk is about to like leave the
(31:20):
Republican Party or something.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
He is.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
He is attacking Trump from the right. So that's just
something to keep in mind as this negotiation goes on.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
All right, thank you Max for coming back, racing back
into the studio for this little segment. Now, can we
please talk about the black eye? I can't wait. All right,
I want to do one last thing here before we wrap,
which is you know, Max, at that send off that
Muscot in the White House, it was Trump and Musk,
(31:50):
and Musk appeared to have something of a black eye,
a shiner.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
A literal black eye, not like political black guy, not
a metaphorical.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Bat black guy.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Those two.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
It was pretty unmissible. You could see it.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I was watching this on TV, and even kind of
across the room you could kind of see there's something
something on his face.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, Max, we have the tape, the clip in which
Musk responds to a question about that black eye. Us, Well,
it wasn't. I wasn't anywhere near friends, so but I
(32:34):
didn't know.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So uh yeah, I was just watching around with Alex
and I said, go ahead, punch me in the face
and he did. It turns out even a five year
old punching you in the in the face actually does.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So Little X knocked.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Oh my god. That is a rich text if there
ever was one.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Right, I mean, you have the the sort of really
awkward joke about the on and and uh and his
wife uh. And then Trump's reaction to the news of
Little X, say, Little X, he's got a right or whatever.
You know, there were those lip reading videos. Have those
(33:13):
come up on this of Trump and Little X talking
in the Oval office where it seemed like maybe Little
X had had been somewhat rude to the president. There
have been a lot of funny things written about this,
and and you know, I've got little kids too, and
and I have.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You ever gotten black eyes from your kids?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
No? But I totally can see it. It's it's it's
totally plausible that like that story.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
I think, I'm sure Sarah.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You don't even have a brood of them.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Well, there have been some pretty amusing stories written sort
of speculating on who it can who are so the
Times pointed out right like like there are lots of
Trump world folks. There are Tesla shareholders, there are and
and and like.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Gotta be Scott Bessen in that list, right they.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I feel like it was kind of almost insulting because
we on this podcast for over a year have maintained
a feud watch. We have a ready list of suspects,
and no one mentioned that. No one mentioned Bill Gates,
no one mentioned Sam Altman, no one mentioned the guy
that Elon Musk has specifically, you know, said he.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Was gonna fight Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
We have talked about this stuff for hours. It feels
anyway you think.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
The investigations to start with those guys, I.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Mean, someone Buckerberg would be no that would happen. There
was no they would They would have no octagon set up.
It would be a whole thing.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's also possible, of course that in that time story
there are a lot of romantic entanglements.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Like I don't know, but.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That said, I think we should. I think we should.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Probably take Elon at his word until we until we
hear otherwise.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Has anybody asked X Yeah, not that I know, Okay, Max, Sarah,
thank you as always, thanks.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
For having us.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, thank you, David.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
This episode was produced by Stacy Wan Blake Maples Handles
engineering and Dave per self fact checks. Anna Masa Raucis
is our editor and our supervising producer is Magnus Henricson.
The etl on ing theme is written and performed by
Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our
executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
A big thanks as always to our supporters Joe Weber
(35:20):
and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute,
rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us.
See you next week.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you
we have a new star.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
A star is born Elon mars Juthan Kennemy.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.
I feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight
percent really appreciate what he does. But those two percent
that are nasty, they are I'll pay in four post.
We were meant for great things in the United States
of America, and Elon reminds us of that we don't
have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk. Welcome
(00:46):
to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday,
June third. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. So Elon got
his farewell from the President last week. Today it's about
a man named Elon and he's one of the greatest
business leaders and innovators the world has ever produced. And
(01:07):
he is now sort of kind of back with his
company's twenty four to seven so right on c Reports
emerged of him raising billions of dollars from investors, making
babies and apparently, according to the New York Times doing
Lots and lots of drugs. To talk about Elon's big
week back in business. I'm sitting here with two of
(01:28):
our stalwarts, Sarah Friar, team leader for Big Tech coverge
here at Bloomberg Sarah, Hello, Hello, And Max Chafkin BusinessWeek
superstar Max.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hello, Hey, David, Hey Sarah.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Max. I saw the other day that your Mets are
winning baseball games.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh my god, I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
That explains a smile.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, yeah, they're They're looking great.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Okay, nice, And you know, Elon may be leaving DC
behind Max, but the story keeps following him. Just one
day after that big sendoff in the Oval Office, Trump
abruptly pulled the NASA nomination. A Musk business associate and
close allied, Jared Isaacman to me, it is exhibit a
of the defeat of Elon Musk and Washington and illustrates
(02:10):
the greatly diminished state he's left it in. I suspect
I will get some pushback on this point though, from
Max and Sarah. We'll start, though, with the drug allegations,
the money and the babies. Max. The New York Times
splashed a big report last week on Elon's drug use,
(02:31):
including ketamine. Give us some of the details.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, and we should say Elon Musk has now denied
this report.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Denied it repeatedly, repeatedly.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think he said the Times is making stuff up.
The Times that stood by it. The report gives you
a portrait essentially of Musk's behavior over the last year
and connects it to what sources are describing to The
Times as fairly extensive drug use.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Now, we of course knew.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
That Elon Musk has smoked pot. We know that he's
used ketamine.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
The I mean, he's admitted to the ketamine use in
the past.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yerescribed I think anyone.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
They are parts of this report suggesting, for instance, he'd
use some party drugs on various occasions that I don't
think was super surprising. But the most significant thing in
this story on drug use is that Elon Musk was
telling associates that he had what sounds like a was
using ketamine pretty heavily, and that he was using, in
(03:36):
fact so heavily that he was experiencing some side effects,
including bladder proms, which is one of the one of
the common side effects from ketamine use. So that was
in the story But then the other thing that is
maybe more troubling was sort of a suggestion that his
behavior that he was sort of using ketamine, using these
(03:58):
drugs all trying to run his companies while trying to
run the US government, and that he was impaired. And
I'd say in that way, it was kind of the
most serious allegations that we've seen about his drug use
to date.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
That said, there was not like, I don't know if
I missed it in the story, but there was not
like a specific instance of you know, we know Musk
was on drugs when he did this thing.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's correct, Sarah, You are right. I mean, there's at
some point they put, you know, a couple of things
side by side, the drug use next to his odd
behavior at that campaign event in Pennsylvania, which he was
jumping around on stage, But at no point, you are right,
do they say in the story that he was acting
this way on this day because of drugs.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
It's a portrait of a guy who seems to the
outside world to be out of control in a whole
bunch of ways, with reporting that suggests that the same
time he was behaving erratically, he was talking to people.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
About using drugs. Fairly heavily.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Now we should say a lot of the these drugs
in the Time story are not illegal drugs, right Ketamine
Musk has said he's using under a prescription. Now, of
course you could have a prescription from ketamine and still
be abusing it. The Times mentions this daily pill box
containing some adderall. Now, of course a lot of people
take adderall to manage you know, adult ADHD or whatever.
(05:20):
So so none of this on its own, I think
would be that concerning if you're like an investor or
even a close friend of Elon Musk. But it's the
kind of just juxtaposition that that Sarah's bringing up that raises.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Question, And I think the piece says that there was
at some point this blurry line between what was medically
prescribed and what was just recreational use.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
There was one one other note in the story that
I found really interesting, which is that SpaceX, as a
government contractor, has to run a drug free workplace, and
there was sourcing in the story that Musk is getting
heads up on those drug tests before they happen so
(06:04):
that he can more easily pass them. So that was
another detail besides the bladder detail. The twenty pills in
the pillbox detail that built a picture of ways in
which this is becoming more routine for him, more integrated
with his every day and like well known to his associates.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I just want to say on that point, the Times
did reach out to SpaceX and SpaceX did not respond.
When are the Times seeking comment?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And I guess the other thing there is that fact
is important because Musk has repeatedly said that he's, you know,
drug tested continuously. He's tested clean continuously.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
And Kristin grind who who authored this one of the
authors on this story. She also wrote the book on
Tony Shea, who, as as is well known now died
of an overdose and her book goes deeply into the
history of ketamine abuse by that CEO of zaz And
(07:01):
and his escalation into other drugs and how it how
it changed thinking and and so one thing I've learned
from from that is the side effects include a lot
of amnesia, a lot of of distortion of reality, a
lot of confusion over what has happened, a lot of
(07:21):
paranoia is common in ketamine abuse. So I think that
that maybe why there was a lot of juxtaposition with
with scenes in this story of Musk, you know, either
attacking people or concerned about his companies, or having different
versions of the same reality. And I think the most
(07:45):
striking thing to me that was news to me I
didn't I didn't hear about with Tony say, but the
bladder issues just seem so painful. And what I was
reading the medical literature on that looks like irreversible if
it gets to that point.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
No, irreversible doesn't sound good.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
There was a whole other dimension in this story that
that kind of pertains to this because it's again sort
of more behavior that seems kind of erratic. And it
was about Elon Musk's love life, right, about Musk saying
different things to different women.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
So Grimes believe for a time that she was in
a monogamous relationship with Elon Musk.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Mistake.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Ashley Sinclair also believed that she was in a monogamous
relationship with Elon Musk. According to her, we also got
some detail on the terms of the settlement.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
At It was a lot of money her in order
to keep it sifteen million dollars up front and one
hundred thousand dollars per month. According to documents that the
time says it saw and Ashley Saint Clair said, nograsias,
and she said, I will no, I will see you.
I believe in court. They are in court now.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And one thing, I mean, look, this is kind of
a side alley or whatever. Maybe this is not the
most important thing in this story, but it really did
raise a question of how sincere he is in his
pro natalism versus is he just sort of out of control?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And so maybe some combo of the two, right.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, some combo of the two, right, because it is
not a portrait of somebody who is fully in control.
I will say there is a potential number fifteen in
this story, Sinclair saying that he told her that he
had fathered children all over the world, including one with
a Japanese FLT star, which would be a new baby,
(09:28):
and that.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Apparently he was or is just offering his sperm to
any woman out there that we knew. I thought we did.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I missed that in the journal story. I was in
there sperm to somebody via direct message.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I guess I suppose I had blocked that out of
my mind.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Now I went on a little bit of a rabbit
hole trying to find the Japanese pop star to see
if this had indeed happened.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Are there any did you fly to Tokyo for this?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
No, this happened on the internet, but I.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Was not able to Finally, we should treat this as
an unconfirmed report until we received further confirmation.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Got it?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I wrote.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
The last thing on this subject I will note is
The Times. Both in the story and then in their
podcast in which they talked about it, they kept using
the term brood, which a brood of kids, which to me,
I mean usually broods like an animals. And I don't
know that it was just struck me as odd. Max.
I guess they suppose they figured once you get to
(10:30):
a certain number, it's no longer just a conventional family
of this now.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
When you there just isn't a lot of precedent for
having this many children, Like I think it's hard to
come up with. I don't know that we have a
term for a large amount of human children this low.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
You know, this big was so apparently not. I think
The Times is you know, working, but.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
They have Sarah Fryar other things that happened in the
last past few days. Elon Musk is raising a lot
of money. It would seem tell us about it.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yeah, so a few things are happening at once. Let
me pull up my list here. So there is the
five billion that he wants for Xai.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
There is, by the way, five billion, to be clear,
five billion via the debt market, not in.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Ex the debt market exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
So that's debt for Xai, which is a which is
part of Xai Holdings, which is simultaneously in discussions to
raise twenty billion in equity. And then he separately had
a raise for Neuralink, his brain technology company. That that
(11:48):
was the six hundred and fifty million round. And he's also,
according to the Financial Time, selling three hundred million in
Xai stock through a secondary offering. So lots of lots
of capital raises happening at once for his companies. Maybe
trying to make the most of this return to his
(12:10):
corporate life in what he says will be a full
time manner and realizing that these companies that he needs
more money to do the things he wants to do.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Important to differentiate between what has been announced, which is
the right and these Xai numbers, which according to.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
The reports are still in marketing stage.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
They're they're just asking for it.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
So like yeah, like you're asking for.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
It also like five billion dollars, but it doesn't necessarily mean.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That I'm going to can I tell you something? Though
much more likely to do usive billion than Max Schafflin. Yeah,
I'll give you now when you.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Dang GPUs do you need that so many?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, when you dangle an interest rate of over ten
percent on the debt, that certainly helps. And apparently the
interest rate they're offering you somewhere around twelve Morgan Stanley
time bank to mister Musk is handling the deal. I
will say, Max, you know, it's funny because Morgan Stanley
the other banks just finally finally got that godfor's sake,
and Twitter dead off its books. Twitter now of course
(13:12):
x which is now of course part of Xai. And
as soon as they finally managed to get it off
their books after they were nursing it forever and couldn't
pawn it off on anybody, bang, we hit the market
with another five billion.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I mean, like, if you're a banker, working with Elon
Musk is a good bet, even if you're not necessarily
crazy about any particular deal.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Like he's got a lot of private equity to sell.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
All right, Max. Last thing in this space another deal
that happened or almost happened, kind of happened then didn't happen,
is Groc and Telegram. This is the.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Second one of these.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
So the Telegram CEO tweeted or East or whatever about
a big deal with Groc that they were going to
integrate Grock into into Telegram or something, and a bunch
of news outlets wrote about it.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
This is pretty similar to the story we.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Talked about two weeks ago about Calshi announcing a deal
and then Elon Musk showed up on Twitter and said
no deal has been signed. This kind of like weird
public feuding with a potential partner. This is a potentially
a large deal now. Look, Telegram, unlike Calshi, is a
very controversial business. The founder, Pavel d'urrov I believe, is
(14:23):
not an uncomplicated guy. There are regulators around the world
who have problems with the way Telegram handles like illegal
content in going through its service. Look, we don't know
the backstory, so who knows, But like, looking at this
report in light of what we read in the Times.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Like it just it does seem it seems odd right.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Well, also just for us to reply publicly on X
saying nothing is signed, and then for Pavel d'ov to
reply to that saying, correct, we're just in late stage
discussions Like those weren't his exact words, but he was
like trying to keep the relationship it proceeding ahead with
a steal, as opposed to taking Musk's very pointed statement
(15:06):
that nothing was happening.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I'll tell you what I think is going on here.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Please do But and this is just speculation, but you know,
Elon Musk, that's what this show is.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Max, He's a famous I got it, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Just remember he's a famously hands on ceo his empire,
especially now, especially with his kind of political engagement, which
continues even with this White House event, and he's running
more companies than he's ever run. Like, I think it's
just gotten harder for all of these companies, especially these startups.
You know, Grok is sort of like a startup to operate,
(15:38):
they need Elon musk sign off for everything. And and
my supposition is some of these deals that are being
announced have been announced without.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
The underlings are getting out over their skis anything you
didn't consult with the doge father first?
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Exactly right, okay, or he made the deals and he's
forgetting possible as well.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Possible does father the dose father, like all fathers, tend
to forget a lot of that they do. And say,
moving back to Washington for a second, Max, because over
the weekend, just when you think Elon is leaving Washington
(16:18):
and he's closing that chapter of his life, bang, big
explosion reports start coming out. I believe it was initially
reported anonymously with sources, then confirmed by the White House
Trump truth that did it start with the truth.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
There was a reporter Trump on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That Musk Skuy Jared Isaac Man, close business associate has
been up in SpaceX, you know, traveling across across space.
Someone who's in put a lot of money into SpaceX.
I believe, was suddenly out as Trump's pick to lead NASA.
That's quite a parting gift, Max, on your way out
the door.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Well, it's not a parting gift.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Like to stop this, Like, first of all, Trump said,
Elon's sticking around. Elon said, Elon sticking around. We know
there's tons of lobbying going on. Elon is lobbying for
transportation rules around driverless cars. He's lobbying right now for
the Senate to change the big beautiful bill to to
keep these EV credits in place. This is an ongoing
(17:24):
negotiation with two with allies, but allies in Elon Musk
and Donald Trump, who have somewhat different interests. I would
say that beyond any kind of like anonymous report that
we've seen out of Trump world, beyond anything that like
Steve Bannon or any of the other kind of adversaries
that Elon has connected to Trump have said, this is
(17:46):
the single.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Most significant thing.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
This is the like the one the biggest thing that
has happened to get you to say, huh, I wonder
if Elon Musk and Trump are good because this was
like Elon's guy, as you said, he had also cleared
his committee hearing, right, he was going to get confirmed.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
And the explanation, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
The replacement CEO for himself at his company exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And the explanation is kind of thin.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
The explanation is that Trump found out that he had
made donations to Democratic politicians, which, of course, like that's
a public record. There's also reporting to suggest that that
Trump had already known about this, that said, like, I
don't know that we know the whole story here.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Max, I think I'm curious what you think of just
like sometimes I think when with Trump, the simplest answer
is sometimes the right one. And I have seen no
reporting to back me up on this.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You think he just forgot no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
I think that that Trump was on the campaign trail
talking about Elon Musk's big, beautiful rockets that are going
to take us to Mars. I think that he really
believed in that idea, and the rockets have been exploding
on the launch pad. And so if I'm Trump, I'm
looking at that and thinking, you know, do we really
(19:09):
want to be all in on this direction? It's just
it's just, you know, symbolism to Trump matters.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
A lot our listeners. Another one did blow up last week. Actually,
I don't rely reminder.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
We forget anything to do with this.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
This is the This is how many now in what
period of time, like.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Three in a row, where they've had mishaps.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
And they're not going to just argue that, Hey, we're
just iterating these kind of explosions are all part of
the learning process. Don't sweat at Chafkin. We're going there.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
They are arguing that, and they.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Are that they're also exploding billions of dollars into Sinaire.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, and it's like Sarah saying, Trump would be on
the campaign trail and he had this bit that people
probably remember where we talked about the arms grabbing the rockets.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Like a baby.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
He did a little version of it actually in the
Oval office the other day during Elon's you know, farewell
at and so, you know, whatever the argument is about,
like oh, this was just a test launch or whatever,
we did not get the beautiful arms, you know, cuddling
the rocket like a baby or whatever Trump might have
liked to see. And on top of that, you have pushback,
(20:15):
right of like you have you have senators, you have
NASA folks, you have people who don't necessarily want to
just like take a hard pivot with NASA, which is
the what Jared Isaacman and Elon Muska want to do.
I also do think it's possible that like Trump just
kind of forgot about Jared Isaacman's donations to Democrats, or
(20:35):
he kind of spaced when someone was telling him or
or someone convinced him that actually, like this is a
this is a big issue. I mean, these were very
recent donations. I mean as recent as the twenty twenty
four election. It's not like he was a Democrat twenty
years ago. And no fair, fair, but I think it's
possible that the like face value explanation offered from Donald
(20:57):
Trump is true.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Okay, I will just say in counterpoint here, hearing all
that and appreciating all that and seeing your points of view,
I will say that Musk himself was quoted in this
very good Atlantic piece. And by the way, this Atlantic
piece are just simply pulling in this case here from
an old pressure he gave. He said, this whole doze
thing I'm doing, this is a way to make a
lot of enemies and not that many friends. And I
(21:20):
think it's also possible that some of those enemies, and
it is a big, big, big list of enemies he
has made in Washington, d C. It's distinctly possible that
more and more and more of them are around the
president and in his year saying hey, let's sandbag these
Musk initiatives. Not in so many words, that's not how
they present it to Trump. I mean, I would say,
when I think about how Washington, d C in some
(21:43):
ways really roughed up elon Musk and the amount of
enemies he made there. There is a very good piece
that The Atlantic ran recently in which the opening scene
is Scott Besson, the Secretary of the Treasury, in a
fight with Musk. Also, by the way, about a pick
in this case, who's going to run the IRS? And
(22:05):
to be clear, Musk also was defeated there. Bessen ultimately
got his guy to head the IRS, and Musk guy
out was ousted. The story opens with Bessn't shouting at
the top of his lungs at Musk, g you, this
is all happening right outside the Oval office, and it's
going up and down the quarters of the White House.
(22:28):
At what point, according to the piece, the two men
are their faces are just inches apart. And this, apparently,
according to this piece and according to reporting we've done
and others have done, is a window into I would argue, Max,
the animosity that has been building there against us. Another
interesting thing that the piece points out is, you remember
that thing that Musk and the Doose team were demanding
(22:50):
that bureaucrats do, where they had to like send a
weekly email saying, hey, here's the three yeah, here the
three things we've done this week. Apparently everybody who was
just ignored it, and the Atlantic, as someone quoted anonymously
saying somebody close to Trump saying how many people were
fired because they didn't send in their three things a
week or whatever the it was. I think that everyone
(23:12):
is ready to move on from this part of the administration.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, Look, there has been this has existed from the
moment elon Musk like not to Washington, right, there has
been a lot of skepticism from others in Trump world
about whether he really knew what he was doing. You know,
there's lots of questions, right, his connections to China. This
is like he's had adversaries all along. And I think
(23:36):
you're right that as he's become more politically unpopular, as
it became clear, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And his popularity, his approval ratings have been sinking.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Joge is not good for the Trump administration.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Like if the goal is just like maximizing for approval
numbers or whatever, they would be running away from this
as fast as they can, which I guess to somebody
sent they.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Are now Sarah. He has been interestingly, Musk been doing
suddenly lots and lots of interviews with the legacy media
and super keen to talk about space and super keen
not to talk about politics. Let's listen to a recent
interview he did with CBS wondering what your thought is
on the ban on foreign students the proposal. I mean
(24:16):
you were one of those kids, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Mean I think we want to stick to, you know,
the subject of the day, which is like spaceships as
opposed to you know, presidential policy.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Oh okay, I was sold anything is good.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
But no, well no, it's funny hearing somebody discover in
real time.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah, you must sometimes changes his mind.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
No, any event, Sarah, the it feels a little bit
like the rebrand and after you know, Tesla and in general,
the Musk brand was damaged quite a bit during his
time in Washington. Perhaps the rebranding and.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Is a foot Yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
I mean I think you saw Tesla stocks or after
he declared that he was done with Washington. However true
or not that will turn out to be. I think
investors are looking forward to this. They see Musk really
driven to prove everyone wrong, that he can turn around
(25:21):
his companies and get driver lists, taxis on the road
and get to Mars and build out the Colossus Data
Center in Memphis. I think that there's like so many
plates he's spinning with really big, high stakes things that
need to be accomplished. Neuralink is having a big year,
(25:41):
as we've discussed, and wanting to put their chips and
dozens of people. So it is kind of a crucial
time at all of these businesses. But they all still
need Washington's backing, like every single one of them. Neuralink
needs the FDA. The driver his cars need a ton
of government approval spasics. As we've talked about, this is
(26:04):
not going to be a clean break. And if Trump
truly is disillusioned with Musk and ready to put him aside,
which it doesn't look like that's you know, he still
has really nice things to say about him. They had
dinner recently.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Well, Sarah, he certainly likes he certainly likes Musk's money.
I would say that, so, I mean I would.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
But but it turns out there was that detail in
that Whilester's journal story that the hundred million that he's
committed to Trump's pack hasn't.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Come a little bit like the derived Wait a minute,
it's just like the Calshi deal and the groc telegram deal.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
I think, I mean, I like, I think I might
have said this last week.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I mean, I think they are negotiating in public, and
like Trump and Musk, Trump and Musk over you know,
various asks that Musk has which are going to be,
you know, not necessarily easy for Trump to deliver, which
is why he hasn't delivered them yet. And Musk, of course,
is has this has a really important point of leverage
(27:06):
over Trump, as you mentioned, David, which is that he
can conceivably give hundreds of millions of dollars to Trump's pack,
or to midterm candidates, or to jd Vance, or to anyone.
And I think that's why you heard him in that
excellent Bloomberg interview that we talked about a couple weeks ago, saying,
I don't you know, I would give if I saw
(27:26):
a need, but I don't see a need yet. Like
it was very much the kind of thing you would say, me,
make me see it, agotiating, make me.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
See that need, Help me see that need. Talk to me. Okay, Max, So,
by the magic of editing, you and I were back
here in the studio again, Pal, how you're doing. So
we're here because Musk, shortly after we finished taping, went
on a bit of a rant, an ex rant, max
(27:55):
ripping the big beautiful bill that Donald Trump is pushing
through Congress. Man.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
It was hot, yeah, and he had criticized it to
some extent earlier. Trump had even addressed that criticism during
their press conference, but this took things up a notch.
I'm gonna read from the Ekes that was posted at
one thirty pm. As you said after we finished recording,
I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive,
(28:25):
outrageous Porkfield Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame
on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
You'd know it, I mean know it harsh.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I will say, not criticizing the president there, criticizing Republican
congress people.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yes, But if Trump calls it a big beautiful bill
and Musk calls it a disgusting abomination, man, that puts
him at pretty opposite end of the spectrum. And I
also point out the very beginning, as you read so beautifully,
maxim was beauty for rendering of the heks, but the
very beginning, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore,
(29:07):
implying clearly that he's been keeping a lot of this within.
He had hinted in the past that he was against
some of the some of this fiscal bill and some
of the pork that goes through. And to be clear,
you know, as somebody who as the Doge Father, was
trying to cut government spending, shrink the deficit, this big
beautiful mill will only add to the deficit quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yeah, undeniably. It makes him look bad.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
And we talked about this when we were talking about
Doge way back when that all this talk about cutting deficits. Meanwhile, Trump,
you know, is also talking about these you know, massive
spending increases via these tax cuts.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
This has kind of been simmering along.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
To me, this is probably just a continuation of the
negotiation that I mentioned.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
When we record the show, the Grand Bargain.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
He you know, there are.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Things that he wants in this bill. He has talked
about what he wants in this bill publicly. He wants
these ev tax credits. He also earlier in the day
he was complaining that the US is falling behind on soular.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
You know that that China. So so there are things
he wants so he doesn't like he wants his own pork.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
But I think clearly this is ideological for Elon Musk
in addition to being practical.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Well, I think he does believe that the government and
so so I think some of that.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
So I think that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
You also, you know, there is a danger in a
negotiation that it can turn into a fight, right that
that like that what he's doing here is dice and
puts Trump in a kind of a difficult position because Trump,
because Musk is a big donor, because he has a
huge footprint. We actually already saw Carolyn Levitt, the Press Secretary,
respond to this, saying Trump is well aware of Elon's
(30:47):
feelings about the buildings.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
He thinks it's still big and it's still beautiful. So
we're moving ahead.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
But I suspect at some point, not necessarily today, but
at some point in the near future, Trump himself will respond.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Just one last thing, David. You know, Musk has also
been retweeting various Senators, Mike Lee as well as Thomas Massey.
He is essentially allying himself with the kind of hawkish,
the budget hawkish, the sort of Freedom Caucus, the hawks
wing of the Republican Party. Not you shouldn't read this
and thing. Oh Musk is about to like leave the
(31:20):
Republican Party or something.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
He is.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
He is attacking Trump from the right. So that's just
something to keep in mind as this negotiation goes on.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
All right, thank you Max for coming back, racing back
into the studio for this little segment. Now, can we
please talk about the black eye? I can't wait. All right,
I want to do one last thing here before we wrap,
which is you know, Max, at that send off that
Muscot in the White House, it was Trump and Musk,
(31:50):
and Musk appeared to have something of a black eye,
a shiner.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
A literal black eye, not like political black guy, not
a metaphorical.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Bat black guy.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Those two.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
It was pretty unmissible. You could see it.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I was watching this on TV, and even kind of
across the room you could kind of see there's something
something on his face.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, Max, we have the tape, the clip in which
Musk responds to a question about that black eye. Us, Well,
it wasn't. I wasn't anywhere near friends, so but I
(32:34):
didn't know.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So uh yeah, I was just watching around with Alex
and I said, go ahead, punch me in the face
and he did. It turns out even a five year
old punching you in the in the face actually does.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So Little X knocked.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Oh my god. That is a rich text if there
ever was one.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Right, I mean, you have the the sort of really
awkward joke about the on and and uh and his
wife uh. And then Trump's reaction to the news of
Little X, say, Little X, he's got a right or whatever.
You know, there were those lip reading videos. Have those
(33:13):
come up on this of Trump and Little X talking
in the Oval office where it seemed like maybe Little
X had had been somewhat rude to the president. There
have been a lot of funny things written about this,
and and you know, I've got little kids too, and
and I have.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You ever gotten black eyes from your kids?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
No? But I totally can see it. It's it's it's
totally plausible that like that story.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
I think, I'm sure Sarah.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You don't even have a brood of them.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Well, there have been some pretty amusing stories written sort
of speculating on who it can who are so the
Times pointed out right like like there are lots of
Trump world folks. There are Tesla shareholders, there are and
and and like.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Gotta be Scott Bessen in that list, right they.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I feel like it was kind of almost insulting because
we on this podcast for over a year have maintained
a feud watch. We have a ready list of suspects,
and no one mentioned that. No one mentioned Bill Gates,
no one mentioned Sam Altman, no one mentioned the guy
that Elon Musk has specifically, you know, said he.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Was gonna fight Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
We have talked about this stuff for hours. It feels
anyway you think.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
The investigations to start with those guys, I.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Mean, someone Buckerberg would be no that would happen. There
was no they would They would have no octagon set up.
It would be a whole thing.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's also possible, of course that in that time story
there are a lot of romantic entanglements.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Like I don't know, but.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That said, I think we should. I think we should.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Probably take Elon at his word until we until we
hear otherwise.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Has anybody asked X Yeah, not that I know, Okay, Max, Sarah,
thank you as always, thanks.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
For having us.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, thank you, David.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
This episode was produced by Stacy Wan Blake Maples Handles
engineering and Dave per self fact checks. Anna Masa Raucis
is our editor and our supervising producer is Magnus Henricson.
The etl on ing theme is written and performed by
Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our
executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
A big thanks as always to our supporters Joe Weber
(35:20):
and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute,
rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us.
See you next week.
Host
David Papadopoulos
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