December 19, 2024 • 13 mins
West African leaders gave Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso six months to reconsider a withdrawal from the regional economic bloc in a final attempt to avoid its fracture. But with the military-led, Russia-aligned countries setting up their own bloc - the Alliance of Sahel States - is the future of West Africa more one of disunity than unity?
Bloomberg’s West Africa Reporter Katarina Hoije joins Jennifer Zabasajja to explain why the countries want to leave ECOWAS and what the future looks like for West Africa diplomacy
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Mali, Burkina, Faso and Niger have been given six further
months to reconsider leaving the Echoas trade block.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
While the impending exit of Bukina, Fasu, Mali and Niger
from EQUAS is disheartening, we commend the ongoing mediation efforts
led by their excellencies, President ford Na Simbe of Togo
and President Vasirri Jomaifi of Senega. These efforts on the
score your collective commitment the preserving peace and unity in
(00:43):
our region.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
The three junta led nations, the sites of coups, in
recent years have set up their own block, the Alliance
of Sahal States to protect each other and leave ECHOAS behind.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Sixty years of independence, no roads, no war, people can't
find water. Water is life. How can we live under
a so called democracy when there are no schools, people
are learning on the floor, there are no tables. We
think that times have changed, It is no longer a
time to talk about democracy.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Plus, on today's episode of the Next Africa podcast, we'll
ask how perilous this is for ECHOAS and West African
unity and does the block still have any ability to
Defend Democracy. I'm Jennifer Zabasaja and this is the Next
(01:36):
Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each week from the
continent driving the future of global growth with the context
only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me this week is our
West Africa reporter Katerina hooihe in Dakar. Katerina, thanks so
much for joining us again to walk us through this story.
(01:57):
Maybe we just start with explaining what EGOAS is and
who are its members and what exactly its aim is
to do in West Africa.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Yeah. So, echoa's the Economic Community of West African States.
It's an organization of fifteen member countries and they're doing
exactly that economic issues, trying to you know, work on
economic integration and development. And some of the most important
measures they have is the free movement of goods and
people between their countries to facilitate trade. And then they're
(02:33):
also cooperating in terms of you know, telecommunications and other links.
Eight of these countries also share a common currency, the CFA,
and the you know, they have a commission at parliament,
a court, an investment bank exists since nineteen seventy five,
so should be celebrating fifty years next year may be
done with less members as Pekina Fas and Mali in
(02:54):
the year are looking to leave next year in January.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, let's talk about that because at this summit Echoa summit,
they called it disheartening that these countries want to leave.
What's behind this?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
I mean in Mali, Niger and Brikina Faso they have
sort of feeled the band felt abandoned by ECHOS, which
is partly true. They've been battling Islamist insurgencies for over
a decade now, which were a little help from their
neighboring countries except for some regional forces participating in the
UN force. In Mali. There's also the sort of whole
(03:29):
independent struggle after the military coupse, they've been trying to
seek well their sovereignty from France and which is the
form of colonial power. Leaving ECHOAS has been a popular
move among their populations, which has often seen the Echo's
organization has sort of being too close to France and Europe.
It all started actually when Nigeria and other countries the
(03:54):
data EQUAS members tried to reverse a coup in Nicer
in twenty twenty three by threats and military intervention, and
this sort of sparked a movement from both Nice and
Mali and Bukina Faso who said that we're not going
to be part of this. That create sort of a
how to say, a non aggression pact and promising to
(04:15):
defend each other if there were have attack, like sort
of a mini NATO in West Africa, and that has
since involved into this alliance of sahaz states that are
looking at both you know, more regional integration economic corporation
also sort of pooling their resources together their own rich
and gold and uranium in other minerals.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
How much weight would they carry in doing that, Karina,
I mean, would they be able? Do they carry enough
resources in order to break off and become this as
block separate from ecoas.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
I mean, I think that depends on how much how
hard this split is. They obviously still depend on the
neighboring countries. All these three countries are landlocked, so they
rely on words in neighboring countries in Senegal, Iricos and Ghana,
so they still need to keep those connections up. Second
thing is, of course, again the movement of people. There's
(05:09):
like hundreds of thousands of members from the Malisa Hella
Nica living in the neighboring countries and vice versa. So
again they would they would still depend on the links
with neighboring countries so far. I mean, there's other bilateral
and multilateral agreements that regulate all the movements and stuff
between those countries. So if they managed to keep you know,
(05:31):
sort of tax exemptions, continue to keep the free movement
of people, you know, the split might not have to
have that hard impact on them or equesst Countries and Keterina.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
We should note, of course, these three countries that would
make up the aes R Juntelad they have had coups
which I think you mentioned when we when we focus
on echos though, and there are attempts to try to
promote and protect democracy. How much legitimacy do they have
because I've read a bit about how their attempts to
(06:05):
engage with a lot of these coop leaders is sometimes criticized.
I mean, how would you say democracy stands in the
ecoas block?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
The ability or the credibility of echo West Intervene has
definitely taken a hit since the coups in these countries
and also in Guinea and West Africa since twenty twenty.
So far their actions and interventions politically have not gone
far to solve any military coups. The juntor leaders are
(06:35):
still in place. In the past they have been able
to sort of at least negotiate a transfer back to
civilian rule, which we've seen in Mali and also in
Gabon in twenty seventeen when their leader, the president, who
was lost in elections, tried to stay on but obviously
so farming. But what's left now is really negotiations and
(06:56):
trying to limit the impact of an exit, and that
could maybe be done in these six months, hoping that
tensions between the ECHOS members and these three countries have
east a little since that failure to intervene military in
Niger about last year.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And stick with us, Katerina, We're going to take a
quick break, but when we come back, we're going to
talk about what these countries do plan to do instead.
You alluded to that a bit, and whether echoas in
its current form can survive separate from these countries. We'll
be right back. Welcome back today on the podcast, we're
(07:36):
talking about a breakup in West African unity. We have
Bloomberg's Katerina joyhe joining us Katerina. What's been interesting to
read is the reaction from Senegal's president, who has been
very active in at least trying to put forward that
he's trying to negotiate and move the discussions forward with
(08:00):
these countries that want to break off. Does that essentially
show that the echo AS members are a bit concerned
about what this could mean if they do remove themselves
from the block permanently.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So far, their actions have been very limited. Of course,
behind the scenes, the spin like you said, Senegal's president
Pasey or do my Fi negotiating alongside the Togu's president.
I mean they obviously picked these leaders because the scene
as pan Aficant presidents and five was elected just last
year and have since taken a stance speaking for more
sovereignty for both Senegal and for the region. So that
(08:36):
was at least a good choice, and these leaders have
been shuttling between the Malinis year and bukin a fas.
So so far the shuttle diplomacy has not really ritinalely
rendered anything anything concrete. But again, with this sort of
six months grace period for the countries, negotiations could hopefully
lead somewhere it's likely to convince the countries to come back,
(09:00):
but it's possible that it could, you know, sort of
limit the impact of an exit of Malinesia and Bikina
Faso and also possibly set the stage for, you know,
when tensions eases or when there's a change of power
in this country, that these countries could come back into
the regional bloc.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Last week, we were speaking with you and Simon about
the role of Russia in Africa, the evolving role of
Russia of course after the fallabasade in Syria. When we
talk about Russia and even China and maybe even potentially
France to a certain extent, I mean, do they play
any role in some of these negotiations, Could they help
(09:38):
ease tensions?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I mean, they don't play any indirect role into negotiations.
It's true that all these countries have moved closer to Russia,
and some of the Russian intervention, particularly you know, supporting
local sovereignty and also backing these SUNA leaders has obviously
given it a position where well, it's more likely to
(10:02):
be listened to than France, for example, which have lost
a lot of its cloud in these countries. China is
known for not really meddling in African politics. What it
could happen, I mean, the sort of the advantage for
for maybe a country like Russia if Malinisia and Mucina
fas I actually do exit, is that it would would
(10:23):
leave a bigger space for them to act in these
countries as other partners might much struggle to work with
the JUNA does. That's said, I think Russia is sort
of at its limits in West Africa at this point,
and the engagement they have in these countries is what
they're going to stick to. That said is clear that
again they've been backing the sovereignty product of the JUnit
does much more, much more forcefully than the than the
(10:46):
other other partners have.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So then if if negotiations do not yield a return
to civilian rule, do we see more of these Eco
West countries potentially going the way of these their junta
led countries or even feeling a bit less secure in
their own stability.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
I think that's the that's the hope of the style
has stakes. You know, they've been been calling for the
other countries to join, especially no inviting invite di Senegal.
With the new leader in place, that has again taken
more Pan African stance, and it's also breaking a bit
with the with the Ald France AFREK relationship. I wouldn't
see any of the other countries. And if the coastal
(11:26):
countries to join, they benefit of often benefit more from
from being members of echoas than maybe Marl Nichier and
Bukina FASO has done. That are some of the poorest members.
They don't have access to the when the same same
funds as other countries have, So I don't I don't
think that's a risk right now for ECHO as of
course it's that has already lost so much leverage. I mean,
(11:48):
the struggle will really be to to sort of keep
the block together and some reforms will possibly be necessary
either to sort of get these countries back or to
to maintain it's It's important is in Newegian.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And you can read all of our coverage on West
Africa and all the regions across the continent on Bloomberg platforms.
Now here's a few other stories we've been following across
the region. This week, the Democratic Republic of Congo filed
lawsuits against Apple in France and Belgium, accusing the company
of using minerals pillaged from the Central African nation in
(12:25):
its products. The complaints allege that Apple uses minerals that
have been laundered through international supply chains. They also claim
that the firm has deployed deceptive commercial practices to assure
consumers that the tech giant supply chains are clean. In
a statement, Apple said it strongly disputes the claims and
(12:50):
Kenya plans to use IVF techniques to save the northern
white rhino, a species that has only two females remaining worldwide,
from the brink of extinction. It will involve developing embryos
in a laboratory and using so called stem cell associated
techniques with ancient material to help reproduce the rare mammals.
(13:11):
And you can follow all of these stories across Bloomberg,
including the Next African Newsletter. We'll put a link to
that in the show notes. This program was produced by
Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show
wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks
(13:32):
for listening.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Mali, Burkina, Faso and Niger have been given six further
months to reconsider leaving the Echoas trade block.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
While the impending exit of Bukina, Fasu, Mali and Niger
from EQUAS is disheartening, we commend the ongoing mediation efforts
led by their excellencies, President ford Na Simbe of Togo
and President Vasirri Jomaifi of Senega. These efforts on the
score your collective commitment the preserving peace and unity in
(00:43):
our region.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
The three junta led nations, the sites of coups, in
recent years have set up their own block, the Alliance
of Sahal States to protect each other and leave ECHOAS behind.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Sixty years of independence, no roads, no war, people can't
find water. Water is life. How can we live under
a so called democracy when there are no schools, people
are learning on the floor, there are no tables. We
think that times have changed, It is no longer a
time to talk about democracy.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Plus, on today's episode of the Next Africa podcast, we'll
ask how perilous this is for ECHOAS and West African
unity and does the block still have any ability to
Defend Democracy. I'm Jennifer Zabasaja and this is the Next
(01:36):
Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each week from the
continent driving the future of global growth with the context
only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me this week is our
West Africa reporter Katerina hooihe in Dakar. Katerina, thanks so
much for joining us again to walk us through this story.
(01:57):
Maybe we just start with explaining what EGOAS is and
who are its members and what exactly its aim is
to do in West Africa.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Yeah. So, echoa's the Economic Community of West African States.
It's an organization of fifteen member countries and they're doing
exactly that economic issues, trying to you know, work on
economic integration and development. And some of the most important
measures they have is the free movement of goods and
people between their countries to facilitate trade. And then they're
(02:33):
also cooperating in terms of you know, telecommunications and other links.
Eight of these countries also share a common currency, the CFA,
and the you know, they have a commission at parliament,
a court, an investment bank exists since nineteen seventy five,
so should be celebrating fifty years next year may be
done with less members as Pekina Fas and Mali in
(02:54):
the year are looking to leave next year in January.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, let's talk about that because at this summit Echoa summit,
they called it disheartening that these countries want to leave.
What's behind this?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
I mean in Mali, Niger and Brikina Faso they have
sort of feeled the band felt abandoned by ECHOS, which
is partly true. They've been battling Islamist insurgencies for over
a decade now, which were a little help from their
neighboring countries except for some regional forces participating in the
UN force. In Mali. There's also the sort of whole
(03:29):
independent struggle after the military coupse, they've been trying to
seek well their sovereignty from France and which is the
form of colonial power. Leaving ECHOAS has been a popular
move among their populations, which has often seen the Echo's
organization has sort of being too close to France and Europe.
It all started actually when Nigeria and other countries the
(03:54):
data EQUAS members tried to reverse a coup in Nicer
in twenty twenty three by threats and military intervention, and
this sort of sparked a movement from both Nice and
Mali and Bukina Faso who said that we're not going
to be part of this. That create sort of a
how to say, a non aggression pact and promising to
(04:15):
defend each other if there were have attack, like sort
of a mini NATO in West Africa, and that has
since involved into this alliance of sahaz states that are
looking at both you know, more regional integration economic corporation
also sort of pooling their resources together their own rich
and gold and uranium in other minerals.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
How much weight would they carry in doing that, Karina,
I mean, would they be able? Do they carry enough
resources in order to break off and become this as
block separate from ecoas.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
I mean, I think that depends on how much how
hard this split is. They obviously still depend on the
neighboring countries. All these three countries are landlocked, so they
rely on words in neighboring countries in Senegal, Iricos and Ghana,
so they still need to keep those connections up. Second
thing is, of course, again the movement of people. There's
(05:09):
like hundreds of thousands of members from the Malisa Hella
Nica living in the neighboring countries and vice versa. So
again they would they would still depend on the links
with neighboring countries so far. I mean, there's other bilateral
and multilateral agreements that regulate all the movements and stuff
between those countries. So if they managed to keep you know,
(05:31):
sort of tax exemptions, continue to keep the free movement
of people, you know, the split might not have to
have that hard impact on them or equesst Countries and Keterina.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
We should note, of course, these three countries that would
make up the aes R Juntelad they have had coups
which I think you mentioned when we when we focus
on echos though, and there are attempts to try to
promote and protect democracy. How much legitimacy do they have
because I've read a bit about how their attempts to
(06:05):
engage with a lot of these coop leaders is sometimes criticized.
I mean, how would you say democracy stands in the
ecoas block?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
The ability or the credibility of echo West Intervene has
definitely taken a hit since the coups in these countries
and also in Guinea and West Africa since twenty twenty.
So far their actions and interventions politically have not gone
far to solve any military coups. The juntor leaders are
(06:35):
still in place. In the past they have been able
to sort of at least negotiate a transfer back to
civilian rule, which we've seen in Mali and also in
Gabon in twenty seventeen when their leader, the president, who
was lost in elections, tried to stay on but obviously
so farming. But what's left now is really negotiations and
(06:56):
trying to limit the impact of an exit, and that
could maybe be done in these six months, hoping that
tensions between the ECHOS members and these three countries have
east a little since that failure to intervene military in
Niger about last year.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And stick with us, Katerina, We're going to take a
quick break, but when we come back, we're going to
talk about what these countries do plan to do instead.
You alluded to that a bit, and whether echoas in
its current form can survive separate from these countries. We'll
be right back. Welcome back today on the podcast, we're
(07:36):
talking about a breakup in West African unity. We have
Bloomberg's Katerina joyhe joining us Katerina. What's been interesting to
read is the reaction from Senegal's president, who has been
very active in at least trying to put forward that
he's trying to negotiate and move the discussions forward with
(08:00):
these countries that want to break off. Does that essentially
show that the echo AS members are a bit concerned
about what this could mean if they do remove themselves
from the block permanently.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So far, their actions have been very limited. Of course,
behind the scenes, the spin like you said, Senegal's president
Pasey or do my Fi negotiating alongside the Togu's president.
I mean they obviously picked these leaders because the scene
as pan Aficant presidents and five was elected just last
year and have since taken a stance speaking for more
sovereignty for both Senegal and for the region. So that
(08:36):
was at least a good choice, and these leaders have
been shuttling between the Malinis year and bukin a fas.
So so far the shuttle diplomacy has not really ritinalely
rendered anything anything concrete. But again, with this sort of
six months grace period for the countries, negotiations could hopefully
lead somewhere it's likely to convince the countries to come back,
(09:00):
but it's possible that it could, you know, sort of
limit the impact of an exit of Malinesia and Bikina
Faso and also possibly set the stage for, you know,
when tensions eases or when there's a change of power
in this country, that these countries could come back into
the regional bloc.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Last week, we were speaking with you and Simon about
the role of Russia in Africa, the evolving role of
Russia of course after the fallabasade in Syria. When we
talk about Russia and even China and maybe even potentially
France to a certain extent, I mean, do they play
any role in some of these negotiations, Could they help
(09:38):
ease tensions?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I mean, they don't play any indirect role into negotiations.
It's true that all these countries have moved closer to Russia,
and some of the Russian intervention, particularly you know, supporting
local sovereignty and also backing these SUNA leaders has obviously
given it a position where well, it's more likely to
(10:02):
be listened to than France, for example, which have lost
a lot of its cloud in these countries. China is
known for not really meddling in African politics. What it
could happen, I mean, the sort of the advantage for
for maybe a country like Russia if Malinisia and Mucina
fas I actually do exit, is that it would would
(10:23):
leave a bigger space for them to act in these
countries as other partners might much struggle to work with
the JUNA does. That's said, I think Russia is sort
of at its limits in West Africa at this point,
and the engagement they have in these countries is what
they're going to stick to. That said is clear that
again they've been backing the sovereignty product of the JUnit
does much more, much more forcefully than the than the
(10:46):
other other partners have.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So then if if negotiations do not yield a return
to civilian rule, do we see more of these Eco
West countries potentially going the way of these their junta
led countries or even feeling a bit less secure in
their own stability.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
I think that's the that's the hope of the style
has stakes. You know, they've been been calling for the
other countries to join, especially no inviting invite di Senegal.
With the new leader in place, that has again taken
more Pan African stance, and it's also breaking a bit
with the with the Ald France AFREK relationship. I wouldn't
see any of the other countries. And if the coastal
(11:26):
countries to join, they benefit of often benefit more from
from being members of echoas than maybe Marl Nichier and
Bukina FASO has done. That are some of the poorest members.
They don't have access to the when the same same
funds as other countries have, So I don't I don't
think that's a risk right now for ECHO as of
course it's that has already lost so much leverage. I mean,
(11:48):
the struggle will really be to to sort of keep
the block together and some reforms will possibly be necessary
either to sort of get these countries back or to
to maintain it's It's important is in Newegian.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And you can read all of our coverage on West
Africa and all the regions across the continent on Bloomberg platforms.
Now here's a few other stories we've been following across
the region. This week, the Democratic Republic of Congo filed
lawsuits against Apple in France and Belgium, accusing the company
of using minerals pillaged from the Central African nation in
(12:25):
its products. The complaints allege that Apple uses minerals that
have been laundered through international supply chains. They also claim
that the firm has deployed deceptive commercial practices to assure
consumers that the tech giant supply chains are clean. In
a statement, Apple said it strongly disputes the claims and
(12:50):
Kenya plans to use IVF techniques to save the northern
white rhino, a species that has only two females remaining worldwide,
from the brink of extinction. It will involve developing embryos
in a laboratory and using so called stem cell associated
techniques with ancient material to help reproduce the rare mammals.
(13:11):
And you can follow all of these stories across Bloomberg,
including the Next African Newsletter. We'll put a link to
that in the show notes. This program was produced by
Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show
wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks
(13:32):
for listening.
Host
Jennifer Zabasajja
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