February 6, 2025 • 15 mins
US Secretary of State Marco Rubio said he won’t attend a G20 summit in Johannesburg later this month, after Donald Trump slammed South Africa over a new land law. The president's top ally Elon Musk has long trafficked in conspiracy theories about the Black-majority government seizing White farmers' land and committing a "genocide" against them. To discuss how Pretoria found itself in Trump's sights, Jennifer Zabasajja is joined by Bloomberg’s Deputy Managing Editor for Africa Neil Munshi - and columnist and political commentator Justice Malala.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Your Secretary of State Marco Rubio is refusing to attend
the G twenty summit in South Africa later this month
as a row over a new land law deepens. Over
the weekend, President Trump threatened to withdraw aid from the country.
He spoke to reporters before boarding Air Force One.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Terrible things are happening in South Africa.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
The leadership is there are some terrible things, horrible things.
So that's under investigation right now.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
We'll make a determination.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And South African ministers have hit back, threatening to withhold
vital minerals from the US. But is this an empty threat?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Well, minires in the continent, and therefore we have something
that we have well not just begars, but must us
use that endowment for our benefit.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
As a President, Rama Posa used part of his State
of the Nation address on Thursday to intervene on the dispute.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
We will not be deterred.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
We are as South African's resilient people and we will
not be bullied.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
On today's podcast, we'll look at how South Africa has
ended up on the US president's radar and how the
new administration's foreign policy could have repercussions across the continent.
I'm Jennifer Zabastaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,
bringing you one story each week from the continent, driving
the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg
(01:40):
can provide. We're going to be speaking to political commentator
Justice Malala in a bit, but first we have Bloomberg's
deputy Managing editor, Neil Munshi joining us. So, Neil, thanks
as always for coming back onto the podcast. President Trump
is now taking aim at an new South African expropriation law.
(02:02):
Get to the heart of this dispute. What exactly is
this row over?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It seems like a misinterpretation, let's say, of what the
log she is, which is South Africa past what is
essentially an eminent domain law, which countries all over the
world have where the government can take over unused land,
abandoned land, that kind of thing if it's not being
used and can be used by the government for something else. Right,
(02:29):
it happens all the time when countries want to lay
pipelines or build infrastructure, that kind of stuff. Now, the
context in South Africa is a little bit different because
one goal of the African National Congress, which is Nelson
Mandela's party that brought down apartheid is to redress the
inequalities born from the apartheid era, the vast racial wealth gap,
(02:50):
all that kind of stuff. It seems like what Trump
is doing is conflating the two in a way, and
in his tweet about it, he objects to the South
African government treating quote, certain classes of people very badly.
Secretary of State Rubio also mentioned the seizure of land.
There is no seizure of land, but that seems to
(03:12):
feed into this long running conspiracy theory that the South
African government is seizing land from white.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Farmers, which brings me to one of Trump's closest advisors,
of course, Elon Musk, who is from South Africa Praetoria
Man as many people refer to him. Where does he
fit into this? Is he potentially the one whispering and
the president's ear about what's going on? I mean, what
have his commons been so?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Musk has for years now trafficked in this racist conspiracy
theory about the black majority South African government either seizing
land from white farmers or committee a so called white
genocide against white people in the country. None of this
stuff is happening, but he has repeatedly raise this specter
(04:02):
or on Twitter or x you know, commented on other
people's faux outrage about the South African government doing terrible
things to white people in the country. It all kind
of fits into the broader anti DEI kind of racial
grievance politics that Trump and Musk are bringing to the
(04:24):
US government right.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Now, what's that stake, Neil, if this bilateral relationships falls.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Apart, So the US is South Africa's top trading partner.
Most of that is minerals that go to private companies.
It'd be hard for the Trump administration to stop companies
from buying I don't know coal or diamonds or gold
or anything else. But I think what the last couple
weeks has taught the world is he never kind of
(04:53):
want to be in Trump's sites because he can make
things very uncomfortable for you as a government your country
without sort of any thought to the broader context. That
is going to be particularly tricky for South Africa, given
Elon Musk's relationship with Trump and his history with this
(05:15):
conspiracy theory, and the fact that they are the head
of the G twenty this year, They're hosting the presidency
in the summits. Already Rubio has said he won't come.
We don't know about Treasury Secretary Besent coming at the
end of February, and then of course in November is
the Leader's Summit, which Trump in the past has attended.
But given his focus on this kind of issue, non
(05:38):
issue that's also up in the air.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, let's turn out to Justice Malala and bring him
in political commentator and also a Bloomberg opinion columnist. Justice,
It's always great to get you on the show and
to speak with you. I wonder if you can give
us your take on how this row is playing out
and how it even reached President Trump's desk.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I have no doubt, Jen, that the way to President
Thump's ear has been through Elon Musk and a corhort
of others former South Africans who have become very close
to the make America Great Again cor hoort who are hugely,
hugely influential on him, who can whisper in his ear
(06:27):
and say this is a concern and it becomes his
concern without even stop to think it through. And you
can go back to Peter Till, who's a major donor
of the president the new trip Todzar David Taxis as
one of those and others. I'm not saying in this
case it was through those channels. The thing to realize
(06:49):
now and for South African policymakers is that it's going
to be a very tamp centric four years for South
Africa because they are in the sight lines of this administration.
Add to that people like the media, the journalist Taker Calson,
(07:10):
who has made this issue of land in South Africa
a bugbear of his and he talks about it again
and again. My view is that those people already are
looking at South Africa and are looking at it. Askance
if I have were to reference Marco Rubio. Mark Rubio
about in October last year, even before the election, was
(07:33):
already saying South Africa is making and I want to
quote a grave mistake by listening to China on the
Taiwan issue for example. You know, wrongly or rightly, this
is an administration that is looking very, very seriously at
South Africa and is looking at it punitively. So I
(07:55):
expect that this is not the last we've heard of
Donald Trump and others us on South Africa.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And of course it's not the best time for the country,
right you mentioned the G twenty. South Africa is set
to be the first African country to host a G
twenty later this year. This week when this post came
out from President Trump, there was a big mining conference
that was going on. It's the week of the State
of the Nation with this new government here in South Africa,
(08:22):
so not an opportune time. And also, you know, South Africa,
as you know we've talked about, has been caught in
the crosshairs for the case they brought against Israel, right,
and so how do you expect the South African authorities
and leaders to respond? Do you do you continue to
see this being I don't know, a tense dispute between
(08:44):
these two countries.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yes, I think it's going to be very tense. As
you rightly say that the focus of the world over
the next twelve months will be on South Africa. I
threw to November when the G twenty leaders ive in
jo Hannesburg. And so for South Africa, which has a
whole range of things. You talk about the new government
of National Unity. You know, when several rama Pasa and
(09:10):
his team went divorce last month, people were all over them, saying,
you guys have done an amazing thing. You've managed to
pull together and see the opposition eight smaller parties into
a ten party coalition. People worry about the stability of
that coalition. And so you've got a jitary market already
(09:34):
around South Africa. And then you add to this an
unprovoked attack from the most powerful politician in the world.
It becomes a huge issue for South Africa. How should
South Africa respond? How is it responding? The context is
that you have this loud voice, I'm pulling South Africa
from funding from South Africa, But actually, how much is it?
(09:59):
How big is it? And when you look at the numbers,
they're not They're not that scary or that bay. You know,
South Africa is feeling what a huge chunk of the
world Mexico, Canada, China to a less extent, is feeling.
And that's the time effect of being shouted at and
then saying, Okay, where's the meat, but the meat is
(10:21):
I don't know where the meat is. You know, it's
all it's all very thin soup.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Stick with me justice. When we come back, we'll talk
about what might happen next and how African leaders should
deal with the new Trump administration. We'll be right back.
Welcome back. We're looking at what's behind President Trump's latest
route with South Africa. We have political commentator Justice Malala
(10:46):
with us. So Justice, you're walking us through the scenario
in which South Africa has now found itself in. Given
where things are at, now, what is President Ramaposa to do?
And I mean, is it better to sort of sit
on the sidelines and wait for this to play out?
Is it better to respond? And I wonder how then
(11:08):
other African countries should gain it.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
I think a lot of us jhen who look at
these things have always said Africa needs to shape its
own our gender. It needs to say this is what
we need, this is what we've got, what do we
have at the negotiating table. I don't think this attack
on South Africa by Donald Trump and members of his
administration is any different to the way South Africa should
(11:35):
be acting and responding to threats or overtures from China,
from Russia, from the UAE, taking other players on the continent,
other jurisdictions which want to participate and play on the continent.
I think Siril Ramaposa in a South Africa specific sense
(11:56):
has done the right thing. He's gone out of his way.
He said, this is how much we're getting. This is
what we're doing. Is called Elon Musk and said, let's
have a conversation about misinformation and disinformation on your platform
by yourself, because Elon Musk has made these claims himself.
And so I think that's the first step. But the
key thing here is what the minerals Minister in South
(12:19):
Africa has responded with saying, well, you know, we are
endowed with mineral wealth. The United States and others need us,
and so we will consider how we respond in that manner.
I don't think that that's the card that Serah Ramapasa
himself is playing. If you take South African experts to
(12:43):
the United States, if you take manganese, South Africa is
home to seventy percent of the world's manganese. So this
is a country that that has a lot to give,
a lot to trade with the United States. Does the
United States, on the basis of this, of this crisis
(13:06):
that it has manufactured itself, want to get into this
sort of thing with South Africa. I think not. So
one might say, you know, and you and I have
looked at followed Minister Mantashe of South Africa. He's a
very flamboyant, very voluble individual, and he say, oh, you know,
(13:26):
it's just noise that he's making, but he's onto something.
And I think many Africans are saying, well, what are
we dealing with here? Why are we continuing to act
as if we are begging?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And you can read all of our coverage across Bloomberg platforms.
Now here's some other stories we've been following across the region.
This week, leaders from the East and Southern African communities
will discuss how to respond to the growing humanitarian crisis
in Congo as they meet in Tanzania this weekend. The
(14:00):
United Nations and its partners have retrieved at least two
thousand bodies from the streets of the trading hub of Goma,
which is now under the control of Rwanda backed M
twenty three rebels, and a satellite communication system used by
the US and UK to run military operations is central
to efforts by Britain to resolve the sovereignty of the
(14:21):
Chegos Islands. UK security officials familiar with the matter said
now the revelation highlights the stakes for UK Prime Minister
Keir Starmer as he attempts to secure a controversial deal
with Mauritius to resolve the sovereignty claims over the Indian
Ocean archipelago, which has been controlled by Britain for more
than two centuries. And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg,
(14:44):
including the Next African Newsletter. Will put a link to
that in the show notes. This program was produced by
Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show
wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer Zabasogia. Thanks
as always for listening. We'll see you next time.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Your Secretary of State Marco Rubio is refusing to attend
the G twenty summit in South Africa later this month
as a row over a new land law deepens. Over
the weekend, President Trump threatened to withdraw aid from the country.
He spoke to reporters before boarding Air Force One.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Terrible things are happening in South Africa.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
The leadership is there are some terrible things, horrible things.
So that's under investigation right now.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
We'll make a determination.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And South African ministers have hit back, threatening to withhold
vital minerals from the US. But is this an empty threat?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Well, minires in the continent, and therefore we have something
that we have well not just begars, but must us
use that endowment for our benefit.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
As a President, Rama Posa used part of his State
of the Nation address on Thursday to intervene on the dispute.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
We will not be deterred.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
We are as South African's resilient people and we will
not be bullied.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
On today's podcast, we'll look at how South Africa has
ended up on the US president's radar and how the
new administration's foreign policy could have repercussions across the continent.
I'm Jennifer Zabastaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,
bringing you one story each week from the continent, driving
the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg
(01:40):
can provide. We're going to be speaking to political commentator
Justice Malala in a bit, but first we have Bloomberg's
deputy Managing editor, Neil Munshi joining us. So, Neil, thanks
as always for coming back onto the podcast. President Trump
is now taking aim at an new South African expropriation law.
(02:02):
Get to the heart of this dispute. What exactly is
this row over?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It seems like a misinterpretation, let's say, of what the
log she is, which is South Africa past what is
essentially an eminent domain law, which countries all over the
world have where the government can take over unused land,
abandoned land, that kind of thing if it's not being
used and can be used by the government for something else. Right,
(02:29):
it happens all the time when countries want to lay
pipelines or build infrastructure, that kind of stuff. Now, the
context in South Africa is a little bit different because
one goal of the African National Congress, which is Nelson
Mandela's party that brought down apartheid is to redress the
inequalities born from the apartheid era, the vast racial wealth gap,
(02:50):
all that kind of stuff. It seems like what Trump
is doing is conflating the two in a way, and
in his tweet about it, he objects to the South
African government treating quote, certain classes of people very badly.
Secretary of State Rubio also mentioned the seizure of land.
There is no seizure of land, but that seems to
(03:12):
feed into this long running conspiracy theory that the South
African government is seizing land from white.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Farmers, which brings me to one of Trump's closest advisors,
of course, Elon Musk, who is from South Africa Praetoria
Man as many people refer to him. Where does he
fit into this? Is he potentially the one whispering and
the president's ear about what's going on? I mean, what
have his commons been so?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Musk has for years now trafficked in this racist conspiracy
theory about the black majority South African government either seizing
land from white farmers or committee a so called white
genocide against white people in the country. None of this
stuff is happening, but he has repeatedly raise this specter
(04:02):
or on Twitter or x you know, commented on other
people's faux outrage about the South African government doing terrible
things to white people in the country. It all kind
of fits into the broader anti DEI kind of racial
grievance politics that Trump and Musk are bringing to the
(04:24):
US government right.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Now, what's that stake, Neil, if this bilateral relationships falls.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Apart, So the US is South Africa's top trading partner.
Most of that is minerals that go to private companies.
It'd be hard for the Trump administration to stop companies
from buying I don't know coal or diamonds or gold
or anything else. But I think what the last couple
weeks has taught the world is he never kind of
(04:53):
want to be in Trump's sites because he can make
things very uncomfortable for you as a government your country
without sort of any thought to the broader context. That
is going to be particularly tricky for South Africa, given
Elon Musk's relationship with Trump and his history with this
(05:15):
conspiracy theory, and the fact that they are the head
of the G twenty this year, They're hosting the presidency
in the summits. Already Rubio has said he won't come.
We don't know about Treasury Secretary Besent coming at the
end of February, and then of course in November is
the Leader's Summit, which Trump in the past has attended.
But given his focus on this kind of issue, non
(05:38):
issue that's also up in the air.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, let's turn out to Justice Malala and bring him
in political commentator and also a Bloomberg opinion columnist. Justice,
It's always great to get you on the show and
to speak with you. I wonder if you can give
us your take on how this row is playing out
and how it even reached President Trump's desk.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I have no doubt, Jen, that the way to President
Thump's ear has been through Elon Musk and a corhort
of others former South Africans who have become very close
to the make America Great Again cor hoort who are hugely,
hugely influential on him, who can whisper in his ear
(06:27):
and say this is a concern and it becomes his
concern without even stop to think it through. And you
can go back to Peter Till, who's a major donor
of the president the new trip Todzar David Taxis as
one of those and others. I'm not saying in this
case it was through those channels. The thing to realize
(06:49):
now and for South African policymakers is that it's going
to be a very tamp centric four years for South
Africa because they are in the sight lines of this administration.
Add to that people like the media, the journalist Taker Calson,
(07:10):
who has made this issue of land in South Africa
a bugbear of his and he talks about it again
and again. My view is that those people already are
looking at South Africa and are looking at it. Askance
if I have were to reference Marco Rubio. Mark Rubio
about in October last year, even before the election, was
(07:33):
already saying South Africa is making and I want to
quote a grave mistake by listening to China on the
Taiwan issue for example. You know, wrongly or rightly, this
is an administration that is looking very, very seriously at
South Africa and is looking at it punitively. So I
(07:55):
expect that this is not the last we've heard of
Donald Trump and others us on South Africa.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And of course it's not the best time for the country,
right you mentioned the G twenty. South Africa is set
to be the first African country to host a G
twenty later this year. This week when this post came
out from President Trump, there was a big mining conference
that was going on. It's the week of the State
of the Nation with this new government here in South Africa,
(08:22):
so not an opportune time. And also, you know, South Africa,
as you know we've talked about, has been caught in
the crosshairs for the case they brought against Israel, right,
and so how do you expect the South African authorities
and leaders to respond? Do you do you continue to
see this being I don't know, a tense dispute between
(08:44):
these two countries.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yes, I think it's going to be very tense. As
you rightly say that the focus of the world over
the next twelve months will be on South Africa. I
threw to November when the G twenty leaders ive in
jo Hannesburg. And so for South Africa, which has a
whole range of things. You talk about the new government
of National Unity. You know, when several rama Pasa and
(09:10):
his team went divorce last month, people were all over them, saying,
you guys have done an amazing thing. You've managed to
pull together and see the opposition eight smaller parties into
a ten party coalition. People worry about the stability of
that coalition. And so you've got a jitary market already
(09:34):
around South Africa. And then you add to this an
unprovoked attack from the most powerful politician in the world.
It becomes a huge issue for South Africa. How should
South Africa respond? How is it responding? The context is
that you have this loud voice, I'm pulling South Africa
from funding from South Africa, But actually, how much is it?
(09:59):
How big is it? And when you look at the numbers,
they're not They're not that scary or that bay. You know,
South Africa is feeling what a huge chunk of the
world Mexico, Canada, China to a less extent, is feeling.
And that's the time effect of being shouted at and
then saying, Okay, where's the meat, but the meat is
(10:21):
I don't know where the meat is. You know, it's
all it's all very thin soup.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Stick with me justice. When we come back, we'll talk
about what might happen next and how African leaders should
deal with the new Trump administration. We'll be right back.
Welcome back. We're looking at what's behind President Trump's latest
route with South Africa. We have political commentator Justice Malala
(10:46):
with us. So Justice, you're walking us through the scenario
in which South Africa has now found itself in. Given
where things are at, now, what is President Ramaposa to do?
And I mean, is it better to sort of sit
on the sidelines and wait for this to play out?
Is it better to respond? And I wonder how then
(11:08):
other African countries should gain it.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
I think a lot of us jhen who look at
these things have always said Africa needs to shape its
own our gender. It needs to say this is what
we need, this is what we've got, what do we
have at the negotiating table. I don't think this attack
on South Africa by Donald Trump and members of his
administration is any different to the way South Africa should
(11:35):
be acting and responding to threats or overtures from China,
from Russia, from the UAE, taking other players on the continent,
other jurisdictions which want to participate and play on the continent.
I think Siril Ramaposa in a South Africa specific sense
(11:56):
has done the right thing. He's gone out of his way.
He said, this is how much we're getting. This is
what we're doing. Is called Elon Musk and said, let's
have a conversation about misinformation and disinformation on your platform
by yourself, because Elon Musk has made these claims himself.
And so I think that's the first step. But the
key thing here is what the minerals Minister in South
(12:19):
Africa has responded with saying, well, you know, we are
endowed with mineral wealth. The United States and others need us,
and so we will consider how we respond in that manner.
I don't think that that's the card that Serah Ramapasa
himself is playing. If you take South African experts to
(12:43):
the United States, if you take manganese, South Africa is
home to seventy percent of the world's manganese. So this
is a country that that has a lot to give,
a lot to trade with the United States. Does the
United States, on the basis of this, of this crisis
(13:06):
that it has manufactured itself, want to get into this
sort of thing with South Africa. I think not. So
one might say, you know, and you and I have
looked at followed Minister Mantashe of South Africa. He's a
very flamboyant, very voluble individual, and he say, oh, you know,
(13:26):
it's just noise that he's making, but he's onto something.
And I think many Africans are saying, well, what are
we dealing with here? Why are we continuing to act
as if we are begging?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And you can read all of our coverage across Bloomberg platforms.
Now here's some other stories we've been following across the region.
This week, leaders from the East and Southern African communities
will discuss how to respond to the growing humanitarian crisis
in Congo as they meet in Tanzania this weekend. The
(14:00):
United Nations and its partners have retrieved at least two
thousand bodies from the streets of the trading hub of Goma,
which is now under the control of Rwanda backed M
twenty three rebels, and a satellite communication system used by
the US and UK to run military operations is central
to efforts by Britain to resolve the sovereignty of the
(14:21):
Chegos Islands. UK security officials familiar with the matter said
now the revelation highlights the stakes for UK Prime Minister
Keir Starmer as he attempts to secure a controversial deal
with Mauritius to resolve the sovereignty claims over the Indian
Ocean archipelago, which has been controlled by Britain for more
than two centuries. And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg,
(14:44):
including the Next African Newsletter. Will put a link to
that in the show notes. This program was produced by
Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show
wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer Zabasogia. Thanks
as always for listening. We'll see you next time.
Host
Jennifer Zabasajja
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