May 30, 2025 • 16 mins
South African President Cyril Ramaphosa visited Washington last week to ease tensions amid a barrage of criticism from President Donald Trump, who has repeatedly spread false claims that there’s a genocide against White people in Africa’s most industrialized economy. Ramaphosa was intent on focusing on trade relations — the US is the country’s second-largest trading partner after China — but the US leader quickly turned the meeting into an interrogation. Bloomberg's South Africa Government Reporter S'thembile Cele was in the room and recounts the full story of the face-to-face Oval Office meeting.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Relations between the US and South Africa remain at the
lowest point in years after a dramatic Oval Office meeting
between President Trump and the South African President, Cyril Ramoposa.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I want you to look good. I don't want you
to look bad.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
But we have hundreds of people, thousands of people trying
to come into our country because they feel they're.
Speaker 5 (00:30):
Going to be killed.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
With President Trump continuing to push a white genocide conspiracy theory,
President Ramoposa has sought to try to reset the relationship
with the United States.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
The United States continuing to play such a big role
in the life of our economy, it was necessary and
important for us to go and engage with them because
many of our people's jobs are dependent on our economic
dealings with the United States.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
On today's podcast, we're discussing the fallout from that Oval
Office meeting, how the South African government is trying to
handle the Trump administration, and what the future might be
for US South African relations. I'm Jennifer Zaba Sadjob, and
this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story
(01:26):
each week from the continent driving the future of global growth.
With the context only Bloomberg can provide to properly dissect
this dramatic week for Africa. I'm joined by Bloomberg government
reporter Sembile Stele, who traveled with Ramaposa and was in
the Oval office during that meeting. Thank you so much,
(01:49):
Simbulate for joining us. So let's just get right to it.
You were in the room when all of this unfolded.
You traveled with the delegation. Can you talk us through
what exactly happened?
Speaker 5 (02:02):
So I think we got a test of what some
of the White House based reporters have been going through
over the past couple of months, which is just really
somewhat of a roller coaster.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
We were first outside of.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
The gates of the White House waiting for what seemed
like I was doing security checks, and then finally when
we were laid into the lawns, we waited for an
extended period of time for President sil Rama Porsa of
South Africa to arrive. When he did, suddenly everything was
all happening at the same time. The program, and this
was one of the things that kind of shocked the
South African delegation changed completely on the spot. If I
(02:36):
remember correctly, they were supposed to start with kind of
an informal luncheon. They thought that that would be the
ideal time to kind of thow tensions get a sense
for how things go before we had that very public
facing engagement in the Oval office. But the minute that
the president arrived, there was a few minutes in between.
We were ushered into the press room and then all
(02:56):
of a sudden, it was like, go, go, go, everyone,
We're going somewhere. And at that point, I think most
of us weren't even clear that we were now moving
into the office.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
There was just this rush, and suddenly we were inside.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
There, Mike's all over the place, cameras, President Silver my posta,
looking a little bit flustered but kind of trying to
keep his calm. I think maybe I've got a sense
that he was trying to not let his face portray him,
that he was a little bit shocked and maybe slightly
annoyed that there was this slot min change in the program.
And I think that that last minute change also gave
a sense that things were not going to go as
(03:29):
well as what they had hoped in the way that
they had planned out as a South African delegation, and
of course that's when we saw, you know, initially very
cordial kind of an environment. They were speaking about golf,
which has always been kind of President Silver my Pasta's approach.
He'd always had this manner of, you know what, he's
just a guy. He's just a businessman, like myself and
(03:50):
my previous post.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
We're now both heads of states.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
We can kind of make this work if we solve
it on the greens basically, and so I think coming
into that that was his approach. He tried not to
be very antagonistic about things. And it seems to be
going well. And certainly from the first I think more
honest account that we heard from him yesterday, he said,
I thought things are going good. And then all of
a sudden, you hear President Trump saying, I think her
(04:15):
name was Natalie, show us that video.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Is Natalie here, somebody here to turn that? Let me
see the articles place of what you would and turn
excuse me, turn the lights.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Down, and then boom there It was this kind of
cinematic demonstration. I suppose Donald Trump was then using these videos,
these images to try and support the case that has
been falsely made that there is this white genocide that
is happening where white farmers are being targeted because based
on their race.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
In South Africa, you're.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Taking people's land.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
We have.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And those people in medicses are being executed.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
They're being executed, and.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
They happened to be white, and most of them happened
to be farmers. And that's a tough situation. I don't
know how you explained that. How do you explain that
they're taking people's land away, and in many cases those
people are being executed, and in many cases it's not
the government that's soon, it's people that kill them and
then take their land and nothing happens to.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
Them as opposed to what the situation actually is. And
that is just a crime situation that really has gotten
out of.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Control stim be late.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
We've talked before on the podcast about some of these
conspiracy theories about a genocide of white farmers. Can you
talk about how the South African officials are now countering
those claims. What is it they're saying, especially when you
think about what it is that Trump was showing them,
How are they pushing back on this?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So?
Speaker 5 (05:47):
I think it's difficult because there's two approaches. The one
is that it doesn't really matter how much evidence you
put before the Trump administrations to say this is not true.
These are effects and effects at our disposals. Africa has
really reliable crime statistics. They come out on a quarterly basis,
and as it pertains to far murders of white farmers
(06:08):
in particular, because there are many black farmers as well.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Over the last period of.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
The last four years, the crime stats tell us that
fifty three white farmers have been killed. And I think
it's one of the things that came up in the
Oval Office that I think was I think an embarrassing
kind of concession to have to make from the part
of the South African government to say that what we're actually.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Dealing with is a really.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Hectic crime situation that has kind of gotten out of hand,
and it's not targeted at any one person in.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Particular or one race group.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Brother, It's just an issue that we are struggling to
deal with as a government. But I think to the
extent that some felt that let us try and make
a case, there is still room to try and change
President Trump's mind.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
These are the stats, these are the figures.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
They're credible, they're reliable, and they don't support what we're seeing,
and certainly in terms of what we're shown in the
Oval office those videos, a lot of that has now
been exposed, right to say that these are scenes from
the Congo and elsewhere, they didn't actually happen in South Africa.
So there is this back and forth around the statistics,
but there's also a feeling that it doesn't matter how many,
(07:12):
you know, credible figures you put out there, people seem
to have made their minds about the so called white
genocide in South Africa exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
And especially when you think about, you know, President Ramaposa
trying to at least bring the meeting back to the
G twenty and some of the goals for him for
later this year. I wonder Stanbile, given again that you
were in the room, you traveled with the delegation, did
they ultimately walk away with what they had hoped to achieve?
Of course there are some curveballs thrown in there, But
(07:43):
what would you say?
Speaker 5 (07:44):
I think it's kind of mixed reactions depending on who
you speak with. I think it's overall optimistic. But to
the point that you're making, we're president drama Pasa. I
was trying to bring the other issues along because it's
kind of there's a sense that this issue around the
white pharmas has become a little bit of a side
show when there are bigger issues that play. Of course,
South Africa and the US have a longstanding diplomatic and
(08:06):
trade relations. At the US of South Africa's second largest
trading partner after China, and so those are the issues
of substance that i'm a post administration really wants to
put on the table. There's the matter of the G
twenty presidency, which will ultimately be handed over to the
US come the end of the year, and that's a
big point, right. There's also the matter of the preferential
free trade Agreement, the GROWER, which is up for renewal
(08:28):
later this year. There seems to be a sense that
that is dead and buried even before the Trump administration,
to be honest, there's been a sense that South Africa
is too developed for a GOA as a framework, and
so the discussion really has been to how do we
then take this forward, How do we formalize other trade
arrangements that we can have so that you kind of
keep the benefits that you've had going or reconceptualize them
(08:51):
so that we can keep these trade relations going, and
we're possible also ramp up things like alan g gas
imports from the US and those kinds of things. So
I think in behind the closed doors, obviously we don't
have the perspective of the Trumpe administration if they were
open to any of the proposals that were put down,
but certainly there was a discussion around trade, how to
formalize it, how to normalize relationships so that the actual
(09:14):
work does continue, particularly on the trade side.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And Stambulay stick with us. When we come back, we'll
dig into more of the fallout from this meeting and
really what happens now for South Africa and US relations.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
We'll be right back. Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Today we are looking at the fractious relationship between South
Africa and the US. As President Rama Posa returned from
a difficult trip to Washington. Stembu Lay Stele is still
with me. Stembu Lay, I want to ask you about
the reaction to that press conference. It has been the
talk of town, if you could say, across South Africa,
(10:01):
but maybe from your vantage point, how would you assess
the reaction.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
There's been a mixed response, right, it depends on which
side of the fence that you're on.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
But I wouldn't say that on the whole.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
It seems to have not just domestically, but I think
abroad as well, because let's be honest, dealing with the
Trump administration is not just a South African problem. Everyone
is kind of grappling with what it means given the
status of the US, right the world's biggest economy, how
you deal with the president that acts in the manner
that he does, and how you move things going forward.
(10:34):
And so there's people that are saying, you know what,
this guy doesn't respect South Africans, he doesn't have any
good things to say about us. Why are we even
bothering to have this conversation with him at all? You
have economic players like Johanna Rupert, who was in the
room at the time in the Oval Office, trying to
make the point that, you know what, at a trade level,
this relationship is really important.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
It's important that we get things right.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
It's important that we clarify what is misinformation and what
is the accurate picture of what's happening at home and
where there are shortcomings where we are dealing with things
like crime. Will come out and say this is what
it is. And try to clarify what it isn't And
so I think, yeah, it just depends on which side
of the political divide that you're on. But I think
for the most part, people are concerned about Britain, but
(11:18):
the issues and that is the economy and to the
extent that having normalized relations with the US can assist
in stabilizing the economy and growing the economy. As South
Africa's second largest trading partner, there is that realization that
we need to try and make things work.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
If it doesn't work out in the end, that's another story.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
But from the side of the South African government that
are putting their best foot forward as it were, to
try and normalize relations.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Especially when you think about, as you were mentioning a GOA,
that preferential trade agreement which expires at the end of
this year, what does trade look like As you were
just alluding to, you mentioned there were some productive discussions
that we had in the US. When we think about
the bilateral relationship between these two countries, how significant is
(12:04):
this for South Africa really to write the ship?
Speaker 5 (12:09):
I mean, I think it is just if you look
at market movements, when you just get even a sense
and again, this is not just a South African story,
it's everywhere else. You know, at President Trump treats something
about you know, OECD countries, you see something about the
oil market, and you just see everything comes to a
grinding holes and so everyone is just and that's trying
to navigate. But certainly from South African side, given i
(12:30):
mean one of the highest recorded unemployment rates in the world,
you have the economy slowing. You know, there's just a
lot of socioeconomic issues that the nation is trying to
grapple with. And you know, even being Africa's most industrialized economy,
there's just still so many issues that are at play.
And so I think that was the thinking or the
hope going into that meeting at the Oval Office, right
(12:52):
that there's this side show, let's deal with it, Let's
bite the bullets, and let's try and deal with these
very substantive matters. You know, there are six hundred Americans
newest companies that operate in South Africa. They create hundreds
and thousands of much needed jobs. So they must kind
of be a compromise and middle ground that is to
be found here. South Africa was one of those that
was slept with thirty one percent of.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
The tariffs that have now been suspended.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
The conversation was, how do we bring down that figure
so that it is a mutually beneficial relationship, because those
tariffs will hurt, for instance, your auto motive sector. Massive
companies like Ford that are operational in South Africa, they're
going to take a hit in as much as South
Africa will as well.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
And so these are the proposals.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
I think the thinking was to say, these are some
of the ideas that we have, and try and get
a feel from the Trumpet administration where they're willing to
bite on those issues, and then take the discussion forward
and see in terms of a more comprehensive proposal or
what they're calling a new trade deal, what it would
look like to put something together that would be mutually
beneficial for both administrations.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
So then what happens now? Stimbile and I realized it's
not totally fair to add ask you because as you
were mentioning, the President of the United States could tweet
and everything changes. But when we think about G twenty
coming up later this year and the priorities for the
South African government, what are you focused on?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So I think there's a lot of moving parts, so fluent.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
A few inflection points that are coming up, and I
would say that the first one would be the G
seven meeting that's going to take place in Canada next month.
And I think that's important because initially this bilateral between
the two presidents was actually supposed to take place on
the sidelines of the G seven.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And even when the meeting was kind.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
Of fast trapped by Washington people that were trying to
convince President druma course and not to say, they were saying,
give us enough time to prepare, you can meet him
at the G seven, And I think from the President's side,
one of the considerations he was making was that let's
just deal with this once and for all, get it
out of the way, so that when we do meet again,
inevatively at the G seven, for instance, you know there
(14:55):
will be some sort of a normalization or.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
We'll both know where we stand. We'll know if we
have a chance or not.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Similarly, as you mentioned, the G twenty leaders summed in
South Africa in November later this year, and the big question,
I suppose is whether or not President Trump will be
attending that, and it would be really awkward for him
not to given as you mentioned before, that the US
will take over presidency of that block of nations, which
is the world's most powerful economies, right the biggest economies
(15:20):
in the world, and it's something that started on American soil,
and so I think that's the big moment that everyone
is looking at for whether or not things will have
normalized sufficiently by then in such a way that President
Trump will be seen maybe on South Africa's greens playing
some golf leading up to that all important summits.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And Stambulay, thanks again so much for joining us this week,
and you can read all of stambu Lay's reporting across
Bloomberg platforms now and here are some of the other
stories from the region we've been following this week. Nigeria's
President Bullat Tenebu has requested approval from lawmakers to raise
(16:00):
almost twenty four billion dollars in external borrowing in the
next two years to fund projects that will spur economic growth.
And as the African Development Bank elects a new leader,
they will face a formidable task pivoting the continent's biggest
multilateral lender away from its reliance on the US and
(16:21):
Europe and securing billions of dollars of funding from other sources.
You can find these stories on Bloomberg platforms now, including
in the Next African newsletter. Will put a link to
that in the show notes. This program was produced by
Adrian Bradley and Tiwa Adubio. Don't forget to follow and
(16:42):
review the show wherever you usually get your podcasts, But
for now I'm Jennifer's Abasaja.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Thanks as always for listening.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Relations between the US and South Africa remain at the
lowest point in years after a dramatic Oval Office meeting
between President Trump and the South African President, Cyril Ramoposa.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I want you to look good. I don't want you
to look bad.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
But we have hundreds of people, thousands of people trying
to come into our country because they feel they're.
Speaker 5 (00:30):
Going to be killed.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
With President Trump continuing to push a white genocide conspiracy theory,
President Ramoposa has sought to try to reset the relationship
with the United States.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
The United States continuing to play such a big role
in the life of our economy, it was necessary and
important for us to go and engage with them because
many of our people's jobs are dependent on our economic
dealings with the United States.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
On today's podcast, we're discussing the fallout from that Oval
Office meeting, how the South African government is trying to
handle the Trump administration, and what the future might be
for US South African relations. I'm Jennifer Zaba Sadjob, and
this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story
(01:26):
each week from the continent driving the future of global growth.
With the context only Bloomberg can provide to properly dissect
this dramatic week for Africa. I'm joined by Bloomberg government
reporter Sembile Stele, who traveled with Ramaposa and was in
the Oval office during that meeting. Thank you so much,
(01:49):
Simbulate for joining us. So let's just get right to it.
You were in the room when all of this unfolded.
You traveled with the delegation. Can you talk us through
what exactly happened?
Speaker 5 (02:02):
So I think we got a test of what some
of the White House based reporters have been going through
over the past couple of months, which is just really
somewhat of a roller coaster.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
We were first outside of.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
The gates of the White House waiting for what seemed
like I was doing security checks, and then finally when
we were laid into the lawns, we waited for an
extended period of time for President sil Rama Porsa of
South Africa to arrive. When he did, suddenly everything was
all happening at the same time. The program, and this
was one of the things that kind of shocked the
South African delegation changed completely on the spot. If I
(02:36):
remember correctly, they were supposed to start with kind of
an informal luncheon. They thought that that would be the
ideal time to kind of thow tensions get a sense
for how things go before we had that very public
facing engagement in the Oval office. But the minute that
the president arrived, there was a few minutes in between.
We were ushered into the press room and then all
(02:56):
of a sudden, it was like, go, go, go, everyone,
We're going somewhere. And at that point, I think most
of us weren't even clear that we were now moving
into the office.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
There was just this rush, and suddenly we were inside.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
There, Mike's all over the place, cameras, President Silver my posta,
looking a little bit flustered but kind of trying to
keep his calm. I think maybe I've got a sense
that he was trying to not let his face portray him,
that he was a little bit shocked and maybe slightly
annoyed that there was this slot min change in the program.
And I think that that last minute change also gave
a sense that things were not going to go as
(03:29):
well as what they had hoped in the way that
they had planned out as a South African delegation, and
of course that's when we saw, you know, initially very
cordial kind of an environment. They were speaking about golf,
which has always been kind of President Silver my Pasta's approach.
He'd always had this manner of, you know what, he's
just a guy. He's just a businessman, like myself and
(03:50):
my previous post.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
We're now both heads of states.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
We can kind of make this work if we solve
it on the greens basically, and so I think coming
into that that was his approach. He tried not to
be very antagonistic about things. And it seems to be
going well. And certainly from the first I think more
honest account that we heard from him yesterday, he said,
I thought things are going good. And then all of
a sudden, you hear President Trump saying, I think her
(04:15):
name was Natalie, show us that video.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Is Natalie here, somebody here to turn that? Let me
see the articles place of what you would and turn
excuse me, turn the lights.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Down, and then boom there It was this kind of
cinematic demonstration. I suppose Donald Trump was then using these videos,
these images to try and support the case that has
been falsely made that there is this white genocide that
is happening where white farmers are being targeted because based
on their race.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
In South Africa, you're.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Taking people's land.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
We have.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And those people in medicses are being executed.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
They're being executed, and.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
They happened to be white, and most of them happened
to be farmers. And that's a tough situation. I don't
know how you explained that. How do you explain that
they're taking people's land away, and in many cases those
people are being executed, and in many cases it's not
the government that's soon, it's people that kill them and
then take their land and nothing happens to.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
Them as opposed to what the situation actually is. And
that is just a crime situation that really has gotten
out of.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Control stim be late.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
We've talked before on the podcast about some of these
conspiracy theories about a genocide of white farmers. Can you
talk about how the South African officials are now countering
those claims. What is it they're saying, especially when you
think about what it is that Trump was showing them,
How are they pushing back on this?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So?
Speaker 5 (05:47):
I think it's difficult because there's two approaches. The one
is that it doesn't really matter how much evidence you
put before the Trump administrations to say this is not true.
These are effects and effects at our disposals. Africa has
really reliable crime statistics. They come out on a quarterly basis,
and as it pertains to far murders of white farmers
(06:08):
in particular, because there are many black farmers as well.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Over the last period of.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
The last four years, the crime stats tell us that
fifty three white farmers have been killed. And I think
it's one of the things that came up in the
Oval Office that I think was I think an embarrassing
kind of concession to have to make from the part
of the South African government to say that what we're actually.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Dealing with is a really.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Hectic crime situation that has kind of gotten out of hand,
and it's not targeted at any one person in.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Particular or one race group.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Brother, It's just an issue that we are struggling to
deal with as a government. But I think to the
extent that some felt that let us try and make
a case, there is still room to try and change
President Trump's mind.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
These are the stats, these are the figures.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
They're credible, they're reliable, and they don't support what we're seeing,
and certainly in terms of what we're shown in the
Oval office those videos, a lot of that has now
been exposed, right to say that these are scenes from
the Congo and elsewhere, they didn't actually happen in South Africa.
So there is this back and forth around the statistics,
but there's also a feeling that it doesn't matter how many,
(07:12):
you know, credible figures you put out there, people seem
to have made their minds about the so called white
genocide in South Africa exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
And especially when you think about, you know, President Ramaposa
trying to at least bring the meeting back to the
G twenty and some of the goals for him for
later this year. I wonder Stanbile, given again that you
were in the room, you traveled with the delegation, did
they ultimately walk away with what they had hoped to achieve?
Of course there are some curveballs thrown in there, But
(07:43):
what would you say?
Speaker 5 (07:44):
I think it's kind of mixed reactions depending on who
you speak with. I think it's overall optimistic. But to
the point that you're making, we're president drama Pasa. I
was trying to bring the other issues along because it's
kind of there's a sense that this issue around the
white pharmas has become a little bit of a side
show when there are bigger issues that play. Of course,
South Africa and the US have a longstanding diplomatic and
(08:06):
trade relations. At the US of South Africa's second largest
trading partner after China, and so those are the issues
of substance that i'm a post administration really wants to
put on the table. There's the matter of the G
twenty presidency, which will ultimately be handed over to the
US come the end of the year, and that's a
big point, right. There's also the matter of the preferential
free trade Agreement, the GROWER, which is up for renewal
(08:28):
later this year. There seems to be a sense that
that is dead and buried even before the Trump administration,
to be honest, there's been a sense that South Africa
is too developed for a GOA as a framework, and
so the discussion really has been to how do we
then take this forward, How do we formalize other trade
arrangements that we can have so that you kind of
keep the benefits that you've had going or reconceptualize them
(08:51):
so that we can keep these trade relations going, and
we're possible also ramp up things like alan g gas
imports from the US and those kinds of things. So
I think in behind the closed doors, obviously we don't
have the perspective of the Trumpe administration if they were
open to any of the proposals that were put down,
but certainly there was a discussion around trade, how to
formalize it, how to normalize relationships so that the actual
(09:14):
work does continue, particularly on the trade side.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And Stambulay stick with us. When we come back, we'll
dig into more of the fallout from this meeting and
really what happens now for South Africa and US relations.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
We'll be right back. Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Today we are looking at the fractious relationship between South
Africa and the US. As President Rama Posa returned from
a difficult trip to Washington. Stembu Lay Stele is still
with me. Stembu Lay, I want to ask you about
the reaction to that press conference. It has been the
talk of town, if you could say, across South Africa,
(10:01):
but maybe from your vantage point, how would you assess
the reaction.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
There's been a mixed response, right, it depends on which
side of the fence that you're on.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
But I wouldn't say that on the whole.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
It seems to have not just domestically, but I think
abroad as well, because let's be honest, dealing with the
Trump administration is not just a South African problem. Everyone
is kind of grappling with what it means given the
status of the US, right the world's biggest economy, how
you deal with the president that acts in the manner
that he does, and how you move things going forward.
(10:34):
And so there's people that are saying, you know what,
this guy doesn't respect South Africans, he doesn't have any
good things to say about us. Why are we even
bothering to have this conversation with him at all? You
have economic players like Johanna Rupert, who was in the
room at the time in the Oval Office, trying to
make the point that, you know what, at a trade level,
this relationship is really important.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
It's important that we get things right.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
It's important that we clarify what is misinformation and what
is the accurate picture of what's happening at home and
where there are shortcomings where we are dealing with things
like crime. Will come out and say this is what
it is. And try to clarify what it isn't And
so I think, yeah, it just depends on which side
of the political divide that you're on. But I think
for the most part, people are concerned about Britain, but
(11:18):
the issues and that is the economy and to the
extent that having normalized relations with the US can assist
in stabilizing the economy and growing the economy. As South
Africa's second largest trading partner, there is that realization that
we need to try and make things work.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
If it doesn't work out in the end, that's another story.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
But from the side of the South African government that
are putting their best foot forward as it were, to
try and normalize relations.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Especially when you think about, as you were mentioning a GOA,
that preferential trade agreement which expires at the end of
this year, what does trade look like As you were
just alluding to, you mentioned there were some productive discussions
that we had in the US. When we think about
the bilateral relationship between these two countries, how significant is
(12:04):
this for South Africa really to write the ship?
Speaker 5 (12:09):
I mean, I think it is just if you look
at market movements, when you just get even a sense
and again, this is not just a South African story,
it's everywhere else. You know, at President Trump treats something
about you know, OECD countries, you see something about the
oil market, and you just see everything comes to a
grinding holes and so everyone is just and that's trying
to navigate. But certainly from South African side, given i
(12:30):
mean one of the highest recorded unemployment rates in the world,
you have the economy slowing. You know, there's just a
lot of socioeconomic issues that the nation is trying to
grapple with. And you know, even being Africa's most industrialized economy,
there's just still so many issues that are at play.
And so I think that was the thinking or the
hope going into that meeting at the Oval Office, right
(12:52):
that there's this side show, let's deal with it, Let's
bite the bullets, and let's try and deal with these
very substantive matters. You know, there are six hundred Americans
newest companies that operate in South Africa. They create hundreds
and thousands of much needed jobs. So they must kind
of be a compromise and middle ground that is to
be found here. South Africa was one of those that
was slept with thirty one percent of.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
The tariffs that have now been suspended.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
The conversation was, how do we bring down that figure
so that it is a mutually beneficial relationship, because those
tariffs will hurt, for instance, your auto motive sector. Massive
companies like Ford that are operational in South Africa, they're
going to take a hit in as much as South
Africa will as well.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
And so these are the proposals.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
I think the thinking was to say, these are some
of the ideas that we have, and try and get
a feel from the Trumpet administration where they're willing to
bite on those issues, and then take the discussion forward
and see in terms of a more comprehensive proposal or
what they're calling a new trade deal, what it would
look like to put something together that would be mutually
beneficial for both administrations.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
So then what happens now? Stimbile and I realized it's
not totally fair to add ask you because as you
were mentioning, the President of the United States could tweet
and everything changes. But when we think about G twenty
coming up later this year and the priorities for the
South African government, what are you focused on?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So I think there's a lot of moving parts, so fluent.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
A few inflection points that are coming up, and I
would say that the first one would be the G
seven meeting that's going to take place in Canada next month.
And I think that's important because initially this bilateral between
the two presidents was actually supposed to take place on
the sidelines of the G seven.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And even when the meeting was kind.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
Of fast trapped by Washington people that were trying to
convince President druma course and not to say, they were saying,
give us enough time to prepare, you can meet him
at the G seven, And I think from the President's side,
one of the considerations he was making was that let's
just deal with this once and for all, get it
out of the way, so that when we do meet again,
inevatively at the G seven, for instance, you know there
(14:55):
will be some sort of a normalization or.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
We'll both know where we stand. We'll know if we
have a chance or not.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Similarly, as you mentioned, the G twenty leaders summed in
South Africa in November later this year, and the big question,
I suppose is whether or not President Trump will be
attending that, and it would be really awkward for him
not to given as you mentioned before, that the US
will take over presidency of that block of nations, which
is the world's most powerful economies, right the biggest economies
(15:20):
in the world, and it's something that started on American soil,
and so I think that's the big moment that everyone
is looking at for whether or not things will have
normalized sufficiently by then in such a way that President
Trump will be seen maybe on South Africa's greens playing
some golf leading up to that all important summits.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And Stambulay, thanks again so much for joining us this week,
and you can read all of stambu Lay's reporting across
Bloomberg platforms now and here are some of the other
stories from the region we've been following this week. Nigeria's
President Bullat Tenebu has requested approval from lawmakers to raise
(16:00):
almost twenty four billion dollars in external borrowing in the
next two years to fund projects that will spur economic growth.
And as the African Development Bank elects a new leader,
they will face a formidable task pivoting the continent's biggest
multilateral lender away from its reliance on the US and
(16:21):
Europe and securing billions of dollars of funding from other sources.
You can find these stories on Bloomberg platforms now, including
in the Next African newsletter. Will put a link to
that in the show notes. This program was produced by
Adrian Bradley and Tiwa Adubio. Don't forget to follow and
(16:42):
review the show wherever you usually get your podcasts, But
for now I'm Jennifer's Abasaja.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Thanks as always for listening.
Host
Jennifer Zabasajja
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com