April 21, 2022 • 36 mins
From bread-baking to DIY home renovation, many people started new activities during the pandemic. Kağan Sümer started a new company. Over the last two years, his rapid food delivery startup Gorillas blew up to become one of the best funded businesses in an industry that didn’t exist before 2020. We get a fascinating look at the story behind Europe’s fastest unicorn - and the future of the rapid delivery business.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to Out of Office. I'm your host,
Malika ka Poor. Today we're getting insight into what it's
like to lead a startup going through explosive growth in
an industry that effectively didn't exist before the pandemic Consumer.
The CEO of rapid food delivery service Gorillas, sat down
with me to talk about the wild ride he's had
(00:32):
the last two years was the most rewarding years of
my life, I would say a personal way. His company's
mind boggling global expansion made it Europe's fastest growing unicorn
to date. If you look at Rilla's today, like compared
to two years two years ago. Two years ago my
home it was winter again and the balcony of my
(00:53):
place was our fridge because it was cold and we
didn't have about it to buy the fridge. And with
the wild ride has come a lot of press, some good,
some less. So you can beat me. If you can't
win against me, it's okay, Like I don't lose because
I learned from it that I keep on moving forward.
This is why. And he did not hold back in
our interview. So here's our conversation. Can welcome to out
(01:25):
of Office. Thanks for having me, Melica, can't. I want
to begin by addressing the situation in Ukraine. I looked
at your LinkedIn page and I see that you are
sending groceries and your trucks are trying to help out
on the Ukrainian border. Can you tell me a little
bit about that. I mean, it's it's a super saddening situation.
(01:47):
You know myself, I'm coming from Turkey, and coming from Turkey,
you're exposed to multiple situations that are saddening. You know,
name it, name it, Coop, name it for on the borders,
so we know the trauma. I personal know trauma it creates.
And now that war is coming again to Europe, it
(02:10):
is super settening. And you know, sometimes you just look
at it and you want to take an action. And
this was the case when I was in thirty to
be honest, and now now the moment we realized that
the moment we at some point we couldn't stand doing
nothing about it. At that point, my team self organized
(02:31):
actually um and they basically organized on their Sunday, they
went to our warehouses, listed the products that's required, and
suddenly a hundred people, big like events were coming in
in and out of of our central hubs, you know,
feeding the trucks that are going to the border and
(02:52):
giving the goods to the foundation that we work in Poland.
It was super inspiring to see, to be honest and
now and now we actually want to include our community
to this, like our customers are, our suppliers are other employees,
and we want to increase the increase the scale of
(03:13):
the help. So at the end of the day, my leg,
at the end of the day, we believe in peace
and we want to contribute to peace, and we want
to enable our community to be able to contribute to peace.
So that's more or less what it is. You grew
up in Turkey. What was your childhood like over there?
It was quite nice, actually, it's nice to be a
(03:34):
childhood in Turkey. I was living a lot with my grandma. Um,
my grandma is like my parents were working. There are doctors.
They were working day and night. And I was with
my grandma always asking to go for a park and
you know, doing the shopping with her and everything. Um,
it was a happy childhood. That's on the streets. I
(03:57):
would say, we're playing a lot of football on the streets. Um.
I actually was selling what my mom was getting for
groceries on the street a little bit, so I and
then and then she catched me. Then she catched me
and I couldn't do it after a while, but it
was a really nice childhood. Do you still have strong
(04:18):
ties to the country and is that home? I'm also
thinking about this question at the moment because I'm super
on the go. I go to different markets that girl
has operate, sometimes new markets that girlas will operate, and
and I asked myself, you know, do I feel comfortable here?
Do I feel comfortable there? And lately, lately I feel
(04:41):
like it's a little bit borderless, what like where we
evolved as a society, because at the end of the day,
at the end of the day, there are some borders,
but these borders are defined, but people people somehow can
connect regarding the borders, so that's regardless of the borders.
So that's what I realized. I feel home more or
(05:02):
less anywhere. Put me in this room, this can be
my home. Put me somewhere else, this can be my
my room. So on that sense, I don't feel extremely
home when I go back to Turkey, because I feel
like there's this big home that I'm living yeah, this
is how I feel. Yeah, I feel like that too.
(05:22):
I'm originally from India, but I've lived in many different countries,
so it's hard when people say where's home? You know,
home is many places at the same time. So I understand,
um can't. I wanted to ask you, at which stage
did you realize you wanted to live the life of
an entrepreneur? Who? Um? I mean I always wanted to
(05:44):
do things. Yeah, Like I was always involved in organizing things,
you know, selling as I said, like my mom was
buying groceries. I was selling that kind of stuff. So
I was always into it, but it was quite unintentional.
And when I get to high school, I was I
was studying in a private high school with scholarship, and
it's it's a challenging thing to have, you know, you
(06:07):
look at your peers, you see that, Okay, they have
a bit more financial freedom, they have a bit more
different way of experiencing things happening around the world, and
you you get used to you begin meeting their parents
and um. And in high school, I had a friend
whose whose father was like an entrepreneur of their times,
(06:30):
like industrial entrepreneur. They were they were doing this metal
pieces and everything, and how he was telling about what
he is doing was not what he is doing, So
he wasn't telling that I'm producing metal. So he was
like putting a context behind it. I'm changing this, I'm
changing that. And it was so passionate and inspiring. I said, okay,
like there's something, there's something around this that that's that's different.
(06:53):
And those days I didn't know the name entrepreneur, but
I knew that I to create some impact with with
something funded by myself, so that I can say high
school times, you come from a family of entrepreneurs, don't you?
Did you ever want to join the family business? And
(07:16):
so I have like my mom and my father, they
are doctors, so that they're the least they're the least
entrepreneurs I've ever met. So I just just to give
a story, I went there. I went to the stadium
with my father, um, and so he was taking me
to the game and he said, can't come on, I'm
gonna show you how to bargain. And there was like
(07:39):
this street street sellers on the like one one. After
he told me you should buy from the first one,
let's move to the second one. We had to the
second one. And we want to have one hat and
one shall and my father asked me, okay, how much
is this? Had his three fifty and shall this one
fIF My father was super proud showing me how the negotiates.
(08:03):
He told me, okay, give both four five to me
and then I said, what are you doing? You're like
it's the guy was super happy immediately rapping and giving.
So my mom and my father they are not entrepreneurs.
They don't negotiate it like I was that guy in
the family. But my uncle, my uncle has a business
(08:23):
and he's doing construction and energy transmission lines quite successful
doing also international stuff. And I worked with them. Actually, um,
but I said, but it was slow moving, Melica. You
know it was B two B and like I worked there,
but I couldn't get the impact. And it's not like
a do mistake, get to feedback and keep on moving
(08:45):
forward kind of business. So that's why I said, Okay, um,
it's not for me that I went to my own way.
You went your own way, indeed, and you founded Gorilla.
I have to say I've used these rapid grocery delivery
services myself. When I use them a lot during lockdowns
during the pandemic. I think it's fair to say this
(09:07):
idea of ten minutes fifteen minute rapid grocery delivery services
didn't really exist still around two years ago, which is
when you started your company. So you've participated in a
field that's grown exponentially in this time, but it's also
become really competitive. What's the last two years been like
for you? The last two years was the most rewarding
(09:30):
years of my life, I would say a personal way.
In a personal way, it's it's definitely a journey, and
the nature of the challenge constantly change, and at some
point you get I don't want to say attached, but
like your you look at what you create in the
beginning and you get amazed, and then suddenly you begin
(09:52):
teaming up with amazing people, and then you look at
what they create and you get amazed. So constantly the
impact that created has scaled tremendously. So that was quite
inspiring to see. A of course, like while doing this,
imagine this two years has has been super fast for
the in the whole industry. And you know, we experienced
(10:15):
these two years and a normal company would have experienced
in like six seven years. I would say, so it's
super compact, and that requires upstacling myself constantly so that
I can actually scale myself through the so that the
company scales. So this was this was like a major observation.
And what I can tell you is at the end
(10:38):
of the day, that's like six months not six months
nine months ago. I took I took a step back,
and I looked at the company. I like looked at
Gorillas super you know, like super amazing stuff, value driven,
authentic people. Both decisions always change things, writing culture at
the heart. So I said, okay, this is amazing, but
(11:01):
like what what took us here? Will it take us
to the next level? And then I begin thinking about
like how like how can I make this change because okay,
we grow tremendously, but can be be a sustainable business?
And then I realized one thing in the first fifteen
months the company, if I would be a company as
a person, I would have been a gori less you know,
(11:22):
like it it looks like me like a founder. I
think a founder creates a company around his values or
her values, around their principles and everything. Yeah, so that
moment was for me a spark. I said, Okay, first
fifteen months it was like that and now next fifteen
months going to be completely different. So if I built
(11:44):
a company that looks like myself and if I need
to change the company, that it means first I had
to change myself. So when I realized this moment, I
immediately surrounded myself with a group of professionals on this
on the domain, you know, like the coach as mentors,
also corporate psychologist, and I kind of upgrade. I'm still
(12:08):
on the process of course, like I'm upgrading myself. I
upgrade myself for the new face and immediately reflected to
do the company. And it was the most rewarding thing
that I I made a tattoo after that because because
I realized that something has changed and something grew me
and this is thanks to gorillas and it has to
be on my neck. That's that's a bold decision. That's
(12:31):
that's commitment, commitment to your brand. That's a covidmin to
my bread. And also that's respect to the change. You know,
like um, if you look at very gorillas today, like
compared to two years two years ago, two years ago,
um are like my my house, my home. It was
(12:52):
winter again and the balcony of my place was our
fridge because it was cold and we didn't have a
body to buy the fridge, and so that's why we're
putting the products to the balcony. Today, I was passing
by the third floor and I looked at Morri It's
he was one of our first interns. He quit his bachelor's. UM.
I said, what are you doing? He said, I'm ordering,
(13:14):
I'm ordering fridges. I said, what are you ordering? Exactly?
He said, we need seven hundred fifty fridges. So seeing that,
seeing that change and doing that change with super young
and ambitious future entrepreneurses, I mean, I have to talk
to that, you know, it's it's amazing. It is amazing.
You've had explosive growth. Like you said, You've gone from
(13:37):
storing items in your balcony where it was called to
buying you know, seven fifty fridges. Um, just just like that,
with the blink of an eye, you've gone from what
twenty employees to ten thou employees your Europe's fastest growing unicorn.
That is explosive growth. How has this changed you as
(13:58):
a person? You said something very interesting and then ago
you said you've had to make a decision to upgrade yourself.
So how have you or how are you upgrading yourself
personally speaking? It's it's around a couple of things. One
is making sure that I making sure that I have
the right priorities and I allocate right time to those priorities.
(14:21):
So this is this is simply creating a really nice
group of very concise CEO office that that actually sets
me up for success. This is one piece. Second pieces
making sure that personally I have a routine that I
stick to, and that routine is always always setting me
(14:41):
you know, at my at my pace, keeps my pace.
This is like waking up at six, having my rowing
session in the beginning, and then setting my intentions for
the day, and you know, then starting my day and
never starting before planning. And if I feel like I
don't need to take this meeting, I have negative energy.
I can't like I avoid my meeting. And at the
(15:03):
night I look back and I write my gratitude and
then call a couple of my team members to ask
there as where they sit, where they stand. So this
is more or less like the second dimension, and on
the third dimension is um It's basically I kept certain
(15:24):
things the same, you know, like I I always so
because you change things, but sometimes you change too many things.
So I always looked at myself and I said, what
do I change? For example, do I do I lose
my values? Do I, um, you know, do I shift
my self awareness to a different different points? So on
(15:49):
that part, I kept who I am. I kept my values.
So these are like the three things that that I
personally focused on. You come across as a very passionate
(16:09):
person and also um, someone who's very much in touch
with your feelings. I mean passionate for sure. You even
have a tattoo of your brand on your neck. You
can't get more passionate, uh than than that. Where does
this passion come from? I think a couple of things.
(16:30):
One is what is personal drive. A second one is
the impact, like the hunger for impact and and personal drive.
I tell you a story like Turkish childhood is quite competitive,
and especially if you're if you're always chasing, you know,
chasing the standards with coming from almost from um you know,
(16:53):
like point zero. You always you always have an ambition
that you want to achieve to make your family proud,
especially my father and my mom. Yeah, so they were
my they are still my heroes in many ways and
and one day I was working for this university exam
that I really wanted to ace, and my father came in.
(17:15):
He was he never slept before I went to bed,
and he one day one day he was so tired
that he couldn't do it anymore because I was still
I was still working on things. And he opened the
curtains and he looked out. I get goose bumps telling this.
He looked outside and he said, look on, there's there
(17:35):
are two lights in this hole neighborhood open still, and
one is yours and one is the other person. And
these are like two people that are going to be
that are gonna be like the prows of this of
this neighborhood. And like I like, I'm I'm coming from this,
you know, I'm coming from trying and having an ambition.
(17:59):
I mean, you can beat me, but I don't feel
like losing at all. You know, like you can beat me,
if you can't win against me, it's okay. Like I
don't lose because I learned from it that I keep
up moving forward. This is why I am. And this
is one thing that this is one thing that really
drives me. This is the personal motivation of coming from
my family. I cannot explain it further. It's it's unexplainable
(18:21):
for me. The second thing is more or less like
the general I'm in love with brands, my Nica, I
love brands. I'm in love with brands that create generational impact.
So if you think about it, um for example, Nike
yuh imagine, like there was diabetes was super huge. People
(18:44):
were losing their health and then one company popped up.
They said, okay, your inspiration of athletes and everyone is
an at least and that was Nike. Nike create the
generational impact. People began doing more and more supports than Apple.
People want to be personalized, the game I Phone, iMac
people personalized. Now today, if you think about it, there's
(19:05):
a huge, like almost social experiment happen happening at a
massive scale called pandemic. And in this pandemic, people are
I mean everyone is asking me, how does it impact
the business? You know, the online groceries are growing, but
it's not the biggest impact. Yes, online groceries is accelerated
and everything. But if you think about this for the
(19:27):
first time, massive amount of the population they got so
afraid of, you know, sometimes afraid of dying. Sometimes they
went back home and they said, oh my god, what's
happening to the world. Like they began people began asking
existential questions. What am I gonna do? Why does it matter?
You know? Like how is how? What do I do
(19:49):
as a person to the world, and what do I
do as a person to myself? And this is unique
to disorder to this generation and everything comes to and
people have that like this is unique that all our
society at the moment tries to do good, like as
a massive group. And for that one they want to
become best version of themselves. And what's best version of
(20:12):
themselves is they don't want to think about the future.
They don't want to think about the present. They want
to be there. And that's satisfying that need. And Gorillas
comes in the exact this moment because because if you
think about it, we give you, We satisfy you with
intimants whatever you need. And this is so primitive, This
is so primitively attached to you and lets you as
(20:34):
sets you up for success. I believe this is a
generational impact. I believe that anyone who's working for Gorilla's
has equal impact on this. And and I'm so proud
that and proud and lucky actually because it's so like
I mean, Gorilla's we create significant amount of generational impact.
In ten years from now, we're gonna look back and
(20:54):
we're gonna say, look, there was very saddening situation, but
like from that, some you know, some positive stuff also happened,
and one of them is Girdless. Now, this is a
really competitive industry that you're in, but you are one
of the better funded companies in this space. How do
(21:15):
you convince investors to bet on you as opposed to
some of your rivals. Do you think the investors are
reacting to your passion and what is it that makes
people trust you or think that yours is the company
the right company to back. This is an interesting question
(21:35):
that I didn't analyze super deeper. Yes, you're right that
we are well funded and most importantly, we have very
strong and very sophisticated investors. So this is this is
for sure and and comments it's not about in my
(21:57):
point of view, investors. They don't need to be convinced.
They look at a model, they like it, and I
mean they want to deploy capital to a certain certain domain,
and after that they became positive. In my point of
they begin with an hypothesis that we want to invest
in this domain, and after that they ask questions why
(22:20):
wouldn't I invest, And then you need to answer those questions.
So it's a little bit like myth busting and in
my point of view, what we are building here is
is for sure is for sure a huge generational impact
potential which requires builders to build. What I mean by
that is this is not only very high business potential,
(22:45):
but this is also high societal impact impact project that
we're on. So that's why identifying those building blogs and
showing that we are actually doing good for the world is,
in my point of a view, is extremely essential to
have this unity with the investors and attracting the right investors.
(23:08):
You talked about being a company driven by doing good,
doing good for your consumers, and also doing good for
your employees. To be honest, though, when reading up on
you and researching about guerrillas, it's very hard to read
up about your company without coming across a lot of
articles which talk about employee dissatisfaction and about disgruntled employees,
(23:29):
employees striking about the condition of their work and their pay.
Do they have a point and how are you addressing
these concerns. Yeah, so so there are some critics, of course,
and we always take it seriously and never personally. Um.
And and there's there's also always there's realities and there's
(23:55):
the perception. So I think it's important too, it's important
to you know, address it in those ways, so to
the to your concerns. So first of all, um, I
can imagine that it's around, is coming. Like last year,
there was a three months concise period that we constantly
(24:19):
got some sort of news. And I can tell you
a couple of things around like you know what we
are doing. You know, I cannot, I cannot really comment
on what's out there, but I can tell you what
we are doing. We are in the first company that
employed their riders. We are the first company that really
(24:41):
promoted We have four hundred five riders that began as
as writer crew and now in the organization different forms.
All of our social media, for example, for the first year,
is done by our riders. Third thing is we have
turd thing is. Third thing is we have we are
(25:02):
the first company that gave full fleet e bikes from
the company. We are the first. We are like we
are we always like our you know, in terms of
our wages for our crew, we always we were always
at the top of our peers. So there are like
multiple things that I can count like this, but essentially
(25:23):
from the very first day America, we said one thing,
We're gonna make our crew proud on their bikes. Yeah.
And for that that one for us was two things,
making sure that our crew is financially and legally stable. Yeah.
And for that one, we initiated first time the employment model.
(25:44):
We initiated, you know, like we initiated the higher pay
than like nothing compared to minimum wage. So this is
the first two things that we have done. And we said,
we're gonna make our crew proud on their bikes. And
for that one we listened to we constantly the MPs
service to our crew. And I don't know if you're
(26:05):
familiar with MPs survey, but six of our crew, like
thousands of people I'm talking about either the out of
ten they either said we're happy ten nine or eight
six percent of our crew and for and and fort
of crew of our crew until six months ago, I
(26:27):
don't know the last numbers was referred. So our crew
is simply referred their friends and families to join to
our crew. So in my point of view, in like
in my point of view, of course, you know, you
you move fast, and sometimes you do some mistakes, and
for those mistakes, you know you take action and immediately
(26:48):
or immediately move forward every single day. I'm super proud
about like how we set those standards and now their
industry norms. And to be honest, sometimes you know, sometimes
I have to look at facts that I see in
our in our internal surveys and in internal communications, so
(27:09):
I take them. I take those as a baseline. And
any any press that I see, I first read it,
communicate with my team, and they you know, if if
if there's facts on it, we immediately take action. How
(27:33):
much weight do you put on what other people think
about what you do? Does the approval of your friends,
of your family and the press matter to you a lot?
And first of all, everyone is doing their job here.
And there's a Turkey saying if a three grows beautiful,
people throw stones and to get the apples down. You know,
(27:54):
we have beautiful apples. I'm super proud of like we have.
We have, we are growing a beautiful tree. And and
of course everyone is everyone is doing their job, and
what we are doing is quite quite in front of everyone.
And I believe that a business that's so pivotal for
(28:15):
the world should be shaken by media authorities and regulatory
forces once so that it's so that these like because
these are transparency organizations, they need to shake and they
need to see if it's really stable what we are
building again, and I think more and more, more and
more more of our stakeholders. They see that we are
(28:37):
doing things with good will and we're improving every single day.
And personally speaking, how it affects me. I mean, I,
as I said, I take it. I don't take it personally.
I take it seriously. I look at it, and you know,
I sometimes give it to my team. But one thing happened,
my God, that actually touched me a little bit. One day,
(28:57):
I my grandma, is you know important for me? I
told you. One day I bought her. I bought her
an iPad and she she follows me from the iPad
and one day she called me. She normally always I
call her. She told me, can we need to talk?
I said, are you good? Yeah? What's happening that you're
doing bad stuff? I said, what do you mean? I'm
(29:18):
doing bad stuff here. So you you changed a lot.
What do you mean I changed? That? Said? I read something,
So there was this, I mean, I don't want to
comment on the I don't wanna. You don't name the news,
but like there was one news that's you know, published
from from one media media channel that's unknown, you know,
(29:40):
like that's that's also deleted after we raised our funds.
She read that. She translated that, and she got superset
that one that one touched. That's the only one that
hushed me. And I told my grandma, grandmother, look, I'm
gonna come back and tell you everything. Just stayed there
(30:00):
a little bit, and after that, I just went there
and you know, told her, look, this is what we're doing.
This is what we're She said, Okay, I knew it.
Uh so this is this is what happened. Kind of
growing up, you played water polo on a national level.
You cycled through Central Asia on a budget. You've started
to row recently. You said you begin your day by rowing.
(30:23):
Do you see parallels between your sports background and the
way you work and set your career goals? Yeah? In
many ways, Molica is Yeah, I love sports. I love sports,
and I love I love activity in general, and sports
has been tremendously, tremendously exciting for me because it's I'm
(30:46):
someone who was in touch with his feelings and also
I'm also my ambitions and sports. Sports taught me a
couple of things. Sports taught me. First of all, how
to be how to discipline, how to how to wake
up every day, go to that quote pool and touch
it with your feet, say that it's cold, and after
(31:08):
to jump on it and do like swim one and
a half hours before school. This is one thing. Second
second thing sports thought me is how to lose, you know,
like how to actually how to how not to lose,
to be honest, because you can lose a game, but
but it's a it's a very long marathon. It's important
(31:30):
how you react to score, you know. This is what
I what I learned how I react to the score,
and this is super important. And third thing is how
to excite people around you. You know. I remember I
remember before one game, before one game, I was talking
(31:51):
like we made a circle we put ourselves like before
every game we did that circle, but there was one
there was one circle that I remember. We were going
for the championship game and everything that we have done.
Was that was that game? You know? Like was that
like sprinting? Like one sprint, you know, one one pass,
one one shot. That's more deliberate. It's like these small
(32:16):
parts of winning and how small steps actually makes the
big makes the big impact, and how different people contribute
to that I learned while playing sports and now it's
exactly the same. You know at business, every day we
have a new challenge and every challenge requires different stakeholders,
and every stakeholders needs to align on something and align
(32:39):
on common goal and be excited about this. How can
I do this without supports? I don't know. So I'm
trained on that one. And if I would if I
would name the fourth thing is four thing is basically
not letting anyone down that you trust and fifting is
that I learned for sport is is if you're going,
(33:04):
if you're a championship team, you need to create a
championship team because championship teams are acting differently. Do you
ever do delivery orders nowadays? And if so, do you
get recognized when you deliver an item? Like the Netherlands,
(33:26):
I delivered an order by the way, I delivered late
because the bridge opened in Netherlands, like recently they made
a big joke about that. You know, now you're the CEO.
You know you cannot you cannot be fast as us anymore.
But yeah, I went to I Deliver with my order
(33:46):
and I said, okay, thank you very much. Do you
have any feedback, like do you know why we are
doing this? And stuff? I like, I began, I began
a little bit on the door. Yeah, and he told me,
look are you They called Kagan Zuma? Are you asume man?
And I said, yeah, I'm Kagan. So how are you doing?
I said, because say, look, you know, I applied to
(34:09):
you and I really want to be part of the
company and everything. He applied for our finance department. I
gave the I gave the phone to our I called
our CFO. They talked a little bit, like they began
to interview process recently. So that's funny. Happen, it does happen, right.
Last question this podcast is called out of Office. What's
your favorite thing to do when you're not in the office.
(34:33):
I really like walking, Melica hm um. I really like
walking when I'm not in the office, especially like you
see my headphones. I have a playlist I put that playlist,
and um, and I walk and not necessarily somewhere, you know,
like I said, Okay, today I walk. Sometimes I go
(34:55):
left right. Yeah, it's it's it relaxes me without any agenda.
I look at the buildings, the same buildings that I see,
but I I just look at them. Um. This is
one thing I love. A second thing is, of course sports,
like every day I wake up and you know, I
sit on this I stoned this rowing machine, or I
(35:17):
hold the bar. You know, I'm doing some Olympic clifting.
It's just it's just so relaxing, is like, I love it.
And listening to Out of Office podcast just kidding, No,
you're better, not be kidding you better. You're better from
now on your favorite podcast. Exactly, no kidding right. Thank
(35:41):
you very much for your time and for joining me
on out of Office, your new favorite podcast. Yeah exactly.
I thank you very much, my guy. It's a pleasure
to share the stories and it was really nice nice
to speak to this first comfortable So thank you for that.
Thank you. I really enjoyed it, and I hope your
grandma will listen to the podcast when it's out. Yeah,
(36:08):
that was my conversation with the founder of Gorillas Consumer
and I hope you enjoyed it. This episode was produced
by Mamoy Ikeda Helminska and Magnus Hendrickson. I'm Alika Kapoor.
Thank you for listening.
Hello, and welcome to Out of Office. I'm your host,
Malika ka Poor. Today we're getting insight into what it's
like to lead a startup going through explosive growth in
an industry that effectively didn't exist before the pandemic Consumer.
The CEO of rapid food delivery service Gorillas, sat down
with me to talk about the wild ride he's had
(00:32):
the last two years was the most rewarding years of
my life, I would say a personal way. His company's
mind boggling global expansion made it Europe's fastest growing unicorn
to date. If you look at Rilla's today, like compared
to two years two years ago. Two years ago my
home it was winter again and the balcony of my
(00:53):
place was our fridge because it was cold and we
didn't have about it to buy the fridge. And with
the wild ride has come a lot of press, some good,
some less. So you can beat me. If you can't
win against me, it's okay, Like I don't lose because
I learned from it that I keep on moving forward.
This is why. And he did not hold back in
our interview. So here's our conversation. Can welcome to out
(01:25):
of Office. Thanks for having me, Melica, can't. I want
to begin by addressing the situation in Ukraine. I looked
at your LinkedIn page and I see that you are
sending groceries and your trucks are trying to help out
on the Ukrainian border. Can you tell me a little
bit about that. I mean, it's it's a super saddening situation.
(01:47):
You know myself, I'm coming from Turkey, and coming from Turkey,
you're exposed to multiple situations that are saddening. You know,
name it, name it, Coop, name it for on the borders,
so we know the trauma. I personal know trauma it creates.
And now that war is coming again to Europe, it
(02:10):
is super settening. And you know, sometimes you just look
at it and you want to take an action. And
this was the case when I was in thirty to
be honest, and now now the moment we realized that
the moment we at some point we couldn't stand doing
nothing about it. At that point, my team self organized
(02:31):
actually um and they basically organized on their Sunday, they
went to our warehouses, listed the products that's required, and
suddenly a hundred people, big like events were coming in
in and out of of our central hubs, you know,
feeding the trucks that are going to the border and
(02:52):
giving the goods to the foundation that we work in Poland.
It was super inspiring to see, to be honest and
now and now we actually want to include our community
to this, like our customers are, our suppliers are other employees,
and we want to increase the increase the scale of
(03:13):
the help. So at the end of the day, my leg,
at the end of the day, we believe in peace
and we want to contribute to peace, and we want
to enable our community to be able to contribute to peace.
So that's more or less what it is. You grew
up in Turkey. What was your childhood like over there?
It was quite nice, actually, it's nice to be a
(03:34):
childhood in Turkey. I was living a lot with my grandma. Um,
my grandma is like my parents were working. There are doctors.
They were working day and night. And I was with
my grandma always asking to go for a park and
you know, doing the shopping with her and everything. Um,
it was a happy childhood. That's on the streets. I
(03:57):
would say, we're playing a lot of football on the streets. Um.
I actually was selling what my mom was getting for
groceries on the street a little bit, so I and
then and then she catched me. Then she catched me
and I couldn't do it after a while, but it
was a really nice childhood. Do you still have strong
(04:18):
ties to the country and is that home? I'm also
thinking about this question at the moment because I'm super
on the go. I go to different markets that girl
has operate, sometimes new markets that girlas will operate, and
and I asked myself, you know, do I feel comfortable here?
Do I feel comfortable there? And lately, lately I feel
(04:41):
like it's a little bit borderless, what like where we
evolved as a society, because at the end of the day,
at the end of the day, there are some borders,
but these borders are defined, but people people somehow can
connect regarding the borders, so that's regardless of the borders.
So that's what I realized. I feel home more or
(05:02):
less anywhere. Put me in this room, this can be
my home. Put me somewhere else, this can be my
my room. So on that sense, I don't feel extremely
home when I go back to Turkey, because I feel
like there's this big home that I'm living yeah, this
is how I feel. Yeah, I feel like that too.
(05:22):
I'm originally from India, but I've lived in many different countries,
so it's hard when people say where's home? You know,
home is many places at the same time. So I understand,
um can't. I wanted to ask you, at which stage
did you realize you wanted to live the life of
an entrepreneur? Who? Um? I mean I always wanted to
(05:44):
do things. Yeah, Like I was always involved in organizing things,
you know, selling as I said, like my mom was
buying groceries. I was selling that kind of stuff. So
I was always into it, but it was quite unintentional.
And when I get to high school, I was I
was studying in a private high school with scholarship, and
it's it's a challenging thing to have, you know, you
(06:07):
look at your peers, you see that, Okay, they have
a bit more financial freedom, they have a bit more
different way of experiencing things happening around the world, and
you you get used to you begin meeting their parents
and um. And in high school, I had a friend
whose whose father was like an entrepreneur of their times,
(06:30):
like industrial entrepreneur. They were they were doing this metal
pieces and everything, and how he was telling about what
he is doing was not what he is doing, So
he wasn't telling that I'm producing metal. So he was
like putting a context behind it. I'm changing this, I'm
changing that. And it was so passionate and inspiring. I said, okay,
like there's something, there's something around this that that's that's different.
(06:53):
And those days I didn't know the name entrepreneur, but
I knew that I to create some impact with with
something funded by myself, so that I can say high
school times, you come from a family of entrepreneurs, don't you?
Did you ever want to join the family business? And
(07:16):
so I have like my mom and my father, they
are doctors, so that they're the least they're the least
entrepreneurs I've ever met. So I just just to give
a story, I went there. I went to the stadium
with my father, um, and so he was taking me
to the game and he said, can't come on, I'm
gonna show you how to bargain. And there was like
(07:39):
this street street sellers on the like one one. After
he told me you should buy from the first one,
let's move to the second one. We had to the
second one. And we want to have one hat and
one shall and my father asked me, okay, how much
is this? Had his three fifty and shall this one
fIF My father was super proud showing me how the negotiates.
(08:03):
He told me, okay, give both four five to me
and then I said, what are you doing? You're like
it's the guy was super happy immediately rapping and giving.
So my mom and my father they are not entrepreneurs.
They don't negotiate it like I was that guy in
the family. But my uncle, my uncle has a business
(08:23):
and he's doing construction and energy transmission lines quite successful
doing also international stuff. And I worked with them. Actually, um,
but I said, but it was slow moving, Melica. You
know it was B two B and like I worked there,
but I couldn't get the impact. And it's not like
a do mistake, get to feedback and keep on moving
(08:45):
forward kind of business. So that's why I said, Okay, um,
it's not for me that I went to my own way.
You went your own way, indeed, and you founded Gorilla.
I have to say I've used these rapid grocery delivery
services myself. When I use them a lot during lockdowns
during the pandemic. I think it's fair to say this
(09:07):
idea of ten minutes fifteen minute rapid grocery delivery services
didn't really exist still around two years ago, which is
when you started your company. So you've participated in a
field that's grown exponentially in this time, but it's also
become really competitive. What's the last two years been like
for you? The last two years was the most rewarding
(09:30):
years of my life, I would say a personal way.
In a personal way, it's it's definitely a journey, and
the nature of the challenge constantly change, and at some
point you get I don't want to say attached, but
like your you look at what you create in the
beginning and you get amazed, and then suddenly you begin
(09:52):
teaming up with amazing people, and then you look at
what they create and you get amazed. So constantly the
impact that created has scaled tremendously. So that was quite
inspiring to see. A of course, like while doing this,
imagine this two years has has been super fast for
the in the whole industry. And you know, we experienced
(10:15):
these two years and a normal company would have experienced
in like six seven years. I would say, so it's
super compact, and that requires upstacling myself constantly so that
I can actually scale myself through the so that the
company scales. So this was this was like a major observation.
And what I can tell you is at the end
(10:38):
of the day, that's like six months not six months
nine months ago. I took I took a step back,
and I looked at the company. I like looked at
Gorillas super you know, like super amazing stuff, value driven,
authentic people. Both decisions always change things, writing culture at
the heart. So I said, okay, this is amazing, but
(11:01):
like what what took us here? Will it take us
to the next level? And then I begin thinking about
like how like how can I make this change because okay,
we grow tremendously, but can be be a sustainable business?
And then I realized one thing in the first fifteen
months the company, if I would be a company as
a person, I would have been a gori less you know,
(11:22):
like it it looks like me like a founder. I
think a founder creates a company around his values or
her values, around their principles and everything. Yeah, so that
moment was for me a spark. I said, Okay, first
fifteen months it was like that and now next fifteen
months going to be completely different. So if I built
(11:44):
a company that looks like myself and if I need
to change the company, that it means first I had
to change myself. So when I realized this moment, I
immediately surrounded myself with a group of professionals on this
on the domain, you know, like the coach as mentors,
also corporate psychologist, and I kind of upgrade. I'm still
(12:08):
on the process of course, like I'm upgrading myself. I
upgrade myself for the new face and immediately reflected to
do the company. And it was the most rewarding thing
that I I made a tattoo after that because because
I realized that something has changed and something grew me
and this is thanks to gorillas and it has to
be on my neck. That's that's a bold decision. That's
(12:31):
that's commitment, commitment to your brand. That's a covidmin to
my bread. And also that's respect to the change. You know,
like um, if you look at very gorillas today, like
compared to two years two years ago, two years ago,
um are like my my house, my home. It was
(12:52):
winter again and the balcony of my place was our
fridge because it was cold and we didn't have a
body to buy the fridge, and so that's why we're
putting the products to the balcony. Today, I was passing
by the third floor and I looked at Morri It's
he was one of our first interns. He quit his bachelor's. UM.
I said, what are you doing? He said, I'm ordering,
(13:14):
I'm ordering fridges. I said, what are you ordering? Exactly?
He said, we need seven hundred fifty fridges. So seeing that,
seeing that change and doing that change with super young
and ambitious future entrepreneurses, I mean, I have to talk
to that, you know, it's it's amazing. It is amazing.
You've had explosive growth. Like you said, You've gone from
(13:37):
storing items in your balcony where it was called to
buying you know, seven fifty fridges. Um, just just like that,
with the blink of an eye, you've gone from what
twenty employees to ten thou employees your Europe's fastest growing unicorn.
That is explosive growth. How has this changed you as
(13:58):
a person? You said something very interesting and then ago
you said you've had to make a decision to upgrade yourself.
So how have you or how are you upgrading yourself
personally speaking? It's it's around a couple of things. One
is making sure that I making sure that I have
the right priorities and I allocate right time to those priorities.
(14:21):
So this is this is simply creating a really nice
group of very concise CEO office that that actually sets
me up for success. This is one piece. Second pieces
making sure that personally I have a routine that I
stick to, and that routine is always always setting me
(14:41):
you know, at my at my pace, keeps my pace.
This is like waking up at six, having my rowing
session in the beginning, and then setting my intentions for
the day, and you know, then starting my day and
never starting before planning. And if I feel like I
don't need to take this meeting, I have negative energy.
I can't like I avoid my meeting. And at the
(15:03):
night I look back and I write my gratitude and
then call a couple of my team members to ask
there as where they sit, where they stand. So this
is more or less like the second dimension, and on
the third dimension is um It's basically I kept certain
(15:24):
things the same, you know, like I I always so
because you change things, but sometimes you change too many things.
So I always looked at myself and I said, what
do I change? For example, do I do I lose
my values? Do I, um, you know, do I shift
my self awareness to a different different points? So on
(15:49):
that part, I kept who I am. I kept my values.
So these are like the three things that that I
personally focused on. You come across as a very passionate
(16:09):
person and also um, someone who's very much in touch
with your feelings. I mean passionate for sure. You even
have a tattoo of your brand on your neck. You
can't get more passionate, uh than than that. Where does
this passion come from? I think a couple of things.
(16:30):
One is what is personal drive. A second one is
the impact, like the hunger for impact and and personal drive.
I tell you a story like Turkish childhood is quite competitive,
and especially if you're if you're always chasing, you know,
chasing the standards with coming from almost from um you know,
(16:53):
like point zero. You always you always have an ambition
that you want to achieve to make your family proud,
especially my father and my mom. Yeah, so they were
my they are still my heroes in many ways and
and one day I was working for this university exam
that I really wanted to ace, and my father came in.
(17:15):
He was he never slept before I went to bed,
and he one day one day he was so tired
that he couldn't do it anymore because I was still
I was still working on things. And he opened the
curtains and he looked out. I get goose bumps telling this.
He looked outside and he said, look on, there's there
(17:35):
are two lights in this hole neighborhood open still, and
one is yours and one is the other person. And
these are like two people that are going to be
that are gonna be like the prows of this of
this neighborhood. And like I like, I'm I'm coming from this,
you know, I'm coming from trying and having an ambition.
(17:59):
I mean, you can beat me, but I don't feel
like losing at all. You know, like you can beat me,
if you can't win against me, it's okay. Like I
don't lose because I learned from it that I keep
up moving forward. This is why I am. And this
is one thing that this is one thing that really
drives me. This is the personal motivation of coming from
my family. I cannot explain it further. It's it's unexplainable
(18:21):
for me. The second thing is more or less like
the general I'm in love with brands, my Nica, I
love brands. I'm in love with brands that create generational impact.
So if you think about it, um for example, Nike
yuh imagine, like there was diabetes was super huge. People
(18:44):
were losing their health and then one company popped up.
They said, okay, your inspiration of athletes and everyone is
an at least and that was Nike. Nike create the
generational impact. People began doing more and more supports than Apple.
People want to be personalized, the game I Phone, iMac
people personalized. Now today, if you think about it, there's
(19:05):
a huge, like almost social experiment happen happening at a
massive scale called pandemic. And in this pandemic, people are
I mean everyone is asking me, how does it impact
the business? You know, the online groceries are growing, but
it's not the biggest impact. Yes, online groceries is accelerated
and everything. But if you think about this for the
(19:27):
first time, massive amount of the population they got so
afraid of, you know, sometimes afraid of dying. Sometimes they
went back home and they said, oh my god, what's
happening to the world. Like they began people began asking
existential questions. What am I gonna do? Why does it matter?
You know? Like how is how? What do I do
(19:49):
as a person to the world, and what do I
do as a person to myself? And this is unique
to disorder to this generation and everything comes to and
people have that like this is unique that all our
society at the moment tries to do good, like as
a massive group. And for that one they want to
become best version of themselves. And what's best version of
(20:12):
themselves is they don't want to think about the future.
They don't want to think about the present. They want
to be there. And that's satisfying that need. And Gorillas
comes in the exact this moment because because if you
think about it, we give you, We satisfy you with
intimants whatever you need. And this is so primitive, This
is so primitively attached to you and lets you as
(20:34):
sets you up for success. I believe this is a
generational impact. I believe that anyone who's working for Gorilla's
has equal impact on this. And and I'm so proud
that and proud and lucky actually because it's so like
I mean, Gorilla's we create significant amount of generational impact.
In ten years from now, we're gonna look back and
(20:54):
we're gonna say, look, there was very saddening situation, but
like from that, some you know, some positive stuff also happened,
and one of them is Girdless. Now, this is a
really competitive industry that you're in, but you are one
of the better funded companies in this space. How do
(21:15):
you convince investors to bet on you as opposed to
some of your rivals. Do you think the investors are
reacting to your passion and what is it that makes
people trust you or think that yours is the company
the right company to back. This is an interesting question
(21:35):
that I didn't analyze super deeper. Yes, you're right that
we are well funded and most importantly, we have very
strong and very sophisticated investors. So this is this is
for sure and and comments it's not about in my
(21:57):
point of view, investors. They don't need to be convinced.
They look at a model, they like it, and I
mean they want to deploy capital to a certain certain domain,
and after that they became positive. In my point of
they begin with an hypothesis that we want to invest
in this domain, and after that they ask questions why
(22:20):
wouldn't I invest, And then you need to answer those questions.
So it's a little bit like myth busting and in
my point of view, what we are building here is
is for sure is for sure a huge generational impact
potential which requires builders to build. What I mean by
that is this is not only very high business potential,
(22:45):
but this is also high societal impact impact project that
we're on. So that's why identifying those building blogs and
showing that we are actually doing good for the world is,
in my point of a view, is extremely essential to
have this unity with the investors and attracting the right investors.
(23:08):
You talked about being a company driven by doing good,
doing good for your consumers, and also doing good for
your employees. To be honest, though, when reading up on
you and researching about guerrillas, it's very hard to read
up about your company without coming across a lot of
articles which talk about employee dissatisfaction and about disgruntled employees,
(23:29):
employees striking about the condition of their work and their pay.
Do they have a point and how are you addressing
these concerns. Yeah, so so there are some critics, of course,
and we always take it seriously and never personally. Um.
And and there's there's also always there's realities and there's
(23:55):
the perception. So I think it's important too, it's important
to you know, address it in those ways, so to
the to your concerns. So first of all, um, I
can imagine that it's around, is coming. Like last year,
there was a three months concise period that we constantly
(24:19):
got some sort of news. And I can tell you
a couple of things around like you know what we
are doing. You know, I cannot, I cannot really comment
on what's out there, but I can tell you what
we are doing. We are in the first company that
employed their riders. We are the first company that really
(24:41):
promoted We have four hundred five riders that began as
as writer crew and now in the organization different forms.
All of our social media, for example, for the first year,
is done by our riders. Third thing is we have
turd thing is. Third thing is we have we are
(25:02):
the first company that gave full fleet e bikes from
the company. We are the first. We are like we
are we always like our you know, in terms of
our wages for our crew, we always we were always
at the top of our peers. So there are like
multiple things that I can count like this, but essentially
(25:23):
from the very first day America, we said one thing,
We're gonna make our crew proud on their bikes. Yeah.
And for that that one for us was two things,
making sure that our crew is financially and legally stable. Yeah.
And for that one, we initiated first time the employment model.
(25:44):
We initiated, you know, like we initiated the higher pay
than like nothing compared to minimum wage. So this is
the first two things that we have done. And we said,
we're gonna make our crew proud on their bikes. And
for that one we listened to we constantly the MPs
service to our crew. And I don't know if you're
(26:05):
familiar with MPs survey, but six of our crew, like
thousands of people I'm talking about either the out of
ten they either said we're happy ten nine or eight
six percent of our crew and for and and fort
of crew of our crew until six months ago, I
(26:27):
don't know the last numbers was referred. So our crew
is simply referred their friends and families to join to
our crew. So in my point of view, in like
in my point of view, of course, you know, you
you move fast, and sometimes you do some mistakes, and
for those mistakes, you know you take action and immediately
(26:48):
or immediately move forward every single day. I'm super proud
about like how we set those standards and now their
industry norms. And to be honest, sometimes you know, sometimes
I have to look at facts that I see in
our in our internal surveys and in internal communications, so
(27:09):
I take them. I take those as a baseline. And
any any press that I see, I first read it,
communicate with my team, and they you know, if if
if there's facts on it, we immediately take action. How
(27:33):
much weight do you put on what other people think
about what you do? Does the approval of your friends,
of your family and the press matter to you a lot?
And first of all, everyone is doing their job here.
And there's a Turkey saying if a three grows beautiful,
people throw stones and to get the apples down. You know,
(27:54):
we have beautiful apples. I'm super proud of like we have.
We have, we are growing a beautiful tree. And and
of course everyone is everyone is doing their job, and
what we are doing is quite quite in front of everyone.
And I believe that a business that's so pivotal for
(28:15):
the world should be shaken by media authorities and regulatory
forces once so that it's so that these like because
these are transparency organizations, they need to shake and they
need to see if it's really stable what we are
building again, and I think more and more, more and
more more of our stakeholders. They see that we are
(28:37):
doing things with good will and we're improving every single day.
And personally speaking, how it affects me. I mean, I,
as I said, I take it. I don't take it personally.
I take it seriously. I look at it, and you know,
I sometimes give it to my team. But one thing happened,
my God, that actually touched me a little bit. One day,
(28:57):
I my grandma, is you know important for me? I
told you. One day I bought her. I bought her
an iPad and she she follows me from the iPad
and one day she called me. She normally always I
call her. She told me, can we need to talk?
I said, are you good? Yeah? What's happening that you're
doing bad stuff? I said, what do you mean? I'm
(29:18):
doing bad stuff here. So you you changed a lot.
What do you mean I changed? That? Said? I read something,
So there was this, I mean, I don't want to
comment on the I don't wanna. You don't name the news,
but like there was one news that's you know, published
from from one media media channel that's unknown, you know,
(29:40):
like that's that's also deleted after we raised our funds.
She read that. She translated that, and she got superset
that one that one touched. That's the only one that
hushed me. And I told my grandma, grandmother, look, I'm
gonna come back and tell you everything. Just stayed there
(30:00):
a little bit, and after that, I just went there
and you know, told her, look, this is what we're doing.
This is what we're She said, Okay, I knew it.
Uh so this is this is what happened. Kind of
growing up, you played water polo on a national level.
You cycled through Central Asia on a budget. You've started
to row recently. You said you begin your day by rowing.
(30:23):
Do you see parallels between your sports background and the
way you work and set your career goals? Yeah? In
many ways, Molica is Yeah, I love sports. I love sports,
and I love I love activity in general, and sports
has been tremendously, tremendously exciting for me because it's I'm
(30:46):
someone who was in touch with his feelings and also
I'm also my ambitions and sports. Sports taught me a
couple of things. Sports taught me. First of all, how
to be how to discipline, how to how to wake
up every day, go to that quote pool and touch
it with your feet, say that it's cold, and after
(31:08):
to jump on it and do like swim one and
a half hours before school. This is one thing. Second
second thing sports thought me is how to lose, you know,
like how to actually how to how not to lose,
to be honest, because you can lose a game, but
but it's a it's a very long marathon. It's important
(31:30):
how you react to score, you know. This is what
I what I learned how I react to the score,
and this is super important. And third thing is how
to excite people around you. You know. I remember I
remember before one game, before one game, I was talking
(31:51):
like we made a circle we put ourselves like before
every game we did that circle, but there was one
there was one circle that I remember. We were going
for the championship game and everything that we have done.
Was that was that game? You know? Like was that
like sprinting? Like one sprint, you know, one one pass,
one one shot. That's more deliberate. It's like these small
(32:16):
parts of winning and how small steps actually makes the
big makes the big impact, and how different people contribute
to that I learned while playing sports and now it's
exactly the same. You know at business, every day we
have a new challenge and every challenge requires different stakeholders,
and every stakeholders needs to align on something and align
(32:39):
on common goal and be excited about this. How can
I do this without supports? I don't know. So I'm
trained on that one. And if I would if I
would name the fourth thing is four thing is basically
not letting anyone down that you trust and fifting is
that I learned for sport is is if you're going,
(33:04):
if you're a championship team, you need to create a
championship team because championship teams are acting differently. Do you
ever do delivery orders nowadays? And if so, do you
get recognized when you deliver an item? Like the Netherlands,
(33:26):
I delivered an order by the way, I delivered late
because the bridge opened in Netherlands, like recently they made
a big joke about that. You know, now you're the CEO.
You know you cannot you cannot be fast as us anymore.
But yeah, I went to I Deliver with my order
(33:46):
and I said, okay, thank you very much. Do you
have any feedback, like do you know why we are
doing this? And stuff? I like, I began, I began
a little bit on the door. Yeah, and he told me,
look are you They called Kagan Zuma? Are you asume man?
And I said, yeah, I'm Kagan. So how are you doing?
I said, because say, look, you know, I applied to
(34:09):
you and I really want to be part of the
company and everything. He applied for our finance department. I
gave the I gave the phone to our I called
our CFO. They talked a little bit, like they began
to interview process recently. So that's funny. Happen, it does happen, right.
Last question this podcast is called out of Office. What's
your favorite thing to do when you're not in the office.
(34:33):
I really like walking, Melica hm um. I really like
walking when I'm not in the office, especially like you
see my headphones. I have a playlist I put that playlist,
and um, and I walk and not necessarily somewhere, you know,
like I said, Okay, today I walk. Sometimes I go
(34:55):
left right. Yeah, it's it's it relaxes me without any agenda.
I look at the buildings, the same buildings that I see,
but I I just look at them. Um. This is
one thing I love. A second thing is, of course sports,
like every day I wake up and you know, I
sit on this I stoned this rowing machine, or I
(35:17):
hold the bar. You know, I'm doing some Olympic clifting.
It's just it's just so relaxing, is like, I love it.
And listening to Out of Office podcast just kidding, No,
you're better, not be kidding you better. You're better from
now on your favorite podcast. Exactly, no kidding right. Thank
(35:41):
you very much for your time and for joining me
on out of Office, your new favorite podcast. Yeah exactly.
I thank you very much, my guy. It's a pleasure
to share the stories and it was really nice nice
to speak to this first comfortable So thank you for that.
Thank you. I really enjoyed it, and I hope your
grandma will listen to the podcast when it's out. Yeah,
(36:08):
that was my conversation with the founder of Gorillas Consumer
and I hope you enjoyed it. This episode was produced
by Mamoy Ikeda Helminska and Magnus Hendrickson. I'm Alika Kapoor.
Thank you for listening.
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