June 23, 2022 • 38 mins
When Patrick Spence joined Research in Motion, few people had heard of the company. That was before it became a global sensation as the maker of BlackBerry. Remember the BlackBerry? Well, the device faded away but working at RIM had a profound impact on Spence, who then went on to join yet another unknown company called Sonos. Today, he’s the CEO of the well-known audio brand and Spence talks about the lessons learned at RIM, about innovation and disruption, taking on tech giants – and reveals what’s on his playlist.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, and welcome back to Out of Office. I'm your host,
Melika Kapoor. I love a good underdog story, and my
guest today exemplifies that. Meet Patrick Spence. He joined a
little known company, Research in Motion, when no one had
heard of it. This is before it became a global
sensation as the maker of the BlackBerry device, remember that
(00:23):
the BlackBerry. Well, after thirteen years there he joined another
unknown company today you know it as Sonas, the hardware
audio company that introduced smart speakers to a mass audience. Patrick,
who has been CEO of Sona since twenty seventeen, joined
me for a wide ranging conversation. What struck me is
a candor with which he talks about mistakes made and
(00:45):
lessons learned and how Blackberries to my shipped his thinking
as a business leader. I think this is an important lesson,
which is like you have to be thinking of looking
around the corners to understand okay, like is there something
else coming? And do we need to be extending this
in the different ways the world changing? Right? Are the
trends around here different? Um? And so you know we
(01:06):
I think we had a huge opportunity and we just
didn't make the right decision. In that front. We also
talked about him taking on tech giants, creating a culture
of trust, his passion for sport, and of course he
reveals what's on his playlist. Here's Patrick Spence on Out
of Office. So if you're ready, she would just get
(01:30):
right into it. Sure, I'm good, excellent, Okay, thank you
so much for joining me on Out of Office. It's
my pleasure you have. The last year were really the
last two years we've all been working from home. We've
been on zoom calls and recording this podcast from home.
It's made everyone think a lot more about audio and sound.
How is this influence to your thinking about sound and
(01:53):
audio quality and how has that influenced your strategy at
so on US. Yeah, you know what we when the
pandemic struck, we really throughout our playbook and you know,
kind of tried to figure out, Okay, what do we
what do you do now right when something like that strikes,
and really connecting back to our mission to be the
world's leading sound experience company, we said, you know what,
we can bring some joy to people, and that's really
(02:14):
what we can do, and that's how we can serve
you know, our customers and the world best at this
particular point in time, and it really working from home
could be a lonely proposition. Um. We don't have the
same kind of energy and environment that we we have
had in the office necessarily, and a big part of
our offices was always music playing and people you know,
having fun, right of course, and that kind of environment.
Right We had artists coming and play and a whole
(02:35):
bunch of those things. And so we really felt we
had an opportunity, um, you know, connected with what we
do to help bring that to people, and so we
launched a series of campaigns to help people set up
their home office and really focus on that and how
to bring music, um and better audio into their home office.
But we also expanded that to our home theater products
(02:57):
because we knew people would be watching a lot more
streaming content and video and we helped make that a
better experience for people and bring you know, a theater
like experience to people's homes. And so we found those
were like two areas we actually felt like we could
do something to make life a little better in a
difficult time, um for people. And then we we actually
(03:17):
did change our roadmap a little bit as well, because
we had some products that UM would have been better suited,
you know, for UM outdoors that then wed prioritized and
we brought those out a little later because we we thought, Okay,
if this is going to be a situation where um,
you know, people are stuck at home, we don't want
to be launching a product which is used outside of
(03:38):
the home, right And so we we made some changes
UM to our roadmap, uh, you know, ultimately to try
and time. You know, what we expect at that point
would be a lockdown of a few months. But ultimately,
you know, we had to Uh we we've obviously we should.
The world's changed completely and we've adapted and kind of
dealt with that. But I think it it kind of
(03:59):
got us back to our core and helped us realize,
you know, hey, we can actually help people out in
this moment. And and that's a great feeling, right when
you can do that and create the create an environment
for people where they you know, they get a little
bit more joy at home, and that's fundamentally what we do.
One of the other things you did join the pandemic
is to introduced something called care time, which is know,
(04:20):
is a week for your employees and a monthly holiday.
Is that still in place? And what is it all about?
So when the pandemic struck, you know, I mentioned, we
threw out the playbook and and the number one priority
will support our people and make sure that you know,
we are people would be in a good position, UM,
so equipping them to be able to do their jobs,
but also recognizing that a lot of people had a
(04:42):
lot of other pressures in their lives, whether it's you know,
supporting their family, UM, supporting neighbors, like people in the community,
whatever they were going to do, extended family, and so
we wanted to be supportive of that. UM. We recognized
kind of the mental health challenges that you came with
this time as well, and so like you said, we
we introduced care time, uh eight hours a week in
(05:03):
terms of time that you could take to be with
your family. Just decompress those those kind of things and UM.
And then the holiday we did in off months where
there was no other holiday and just gave people a break. UM.
You know here and there we we you know, we
will do UM and we continue to do holidays every
once in a while when we feel it makes sense
(05:23):
and give people time off. And we have an open
time off policy that I you know, lead by taking
you know, a fair bit of time off as well
and try to socialize inside the organization so that I
set the example that you know, open time off means
actually take time off right and and be able to
go and enjoy um, you know yourself decompressed and do
some of those things. UM. And we still continue to
(05:45):
have care time as well. And really I think the
challenge for every company, for leaders, um and right down
to every person inside the company is as the world reopens, UM,
and we hit this new phase right because it's not
going back to what we were before. It's an entirely
new phase days UM, and we have new things to
figure out. It is how do we you know, lead
(06:05):
a balanced integrated life UM, you know between all aspects
of what we need to do. And I think we're
trying to figure that out. UM. You know we UM,
we've really gone down the path of something called intentional flexibility,
which is about you know, starts with from a fundamental
place of trusting our people UM and helping them you know,
(06:26):
they know their job best. And so what we actually
do is have them work with their manager to determine
are they you know what's the right working arrangement for them.
Is it to be working from home the majority of
the time. Is it working the office the majority of time? UM?
I think companies that try to prescribe um, at least
in the kind of industry knowledge industry we are, there's
(06:47):
no one size fits all, and so to try and
prescribe like certain days a week or certain times is
um you know, is I think is just a fool's
errand in this day and age, and so at least
for our business, you know, we've really come at it
from a place of trust and assuming that our people
know their job the best and they can work with
their manager to determine where do they best do their
(07:09):
work as well. What is open time off? Does that
mean you can take it as many days off you
that's right? Yeah, so it's um. Some companies call it
unlimited vacation. We call it open time off, and so
they can you know, people can take as much time.
I think at the end of the day, the thing is,
you know, are you having impact in your role in
(07:30):
the way that we need it? And you know, whether
you choose to work from home, whether you choose to
work from the office, like all of these things. The
thing that matters at the end of the day is
are you delivering what you need to form the role
that you're in. And that's what we try to keep
everybody focused on and understanding and um, you know, and
so yeah, we have the open time off policy and
(07:51):
try to be pretty flexible in working our schedules and
all of the things we need to do to create
it makes some of us a great place to work.
I want to go back to your um to the
start of your career, legalities of your career, and you've
taken a fair number of risks in your professional life,
and you talked about you joint Research in Motion when
it was a tiny unknown company. Of course it became
(08:13):
a household name with BlackBerry later on, but when you
joined it, it had what barely any like a hundred
and fifty employees. Yes, that's right, very very tiny. What
drew you to Research in Motion when it was an
unknown name with such few people? Yeah, you know, it
was really the mission of the company. So so it
(08:36):
was at the intersection of computing, wireless and the Internet,
and so for me that was super interesting. These were
trends that I was kind of following and thought, oh,
this is pretty interesting. Um. Then there were the people,
and this is like one of the most important thing
I try to, um, you know, tell anybody that's kind
of looking for career advice, which is, you know, what,
what do you think of the people that you're going
(08:57):
to work with? And you know, and I just was
lit up by the co founders and the leadership team
that was there, and it just felt like something special
was happening. And then there was the opportunity. And it
was an opportunity for me to get in early um
in a start up, and it was definitely risky, but
I felt like, Okay, this is gonna stretch me, and
this job is gonna stretch me and give me opportunities
(09:17):
I just wouldn't have. And so it taking like a
traditional role at a traditional company that you would go into.
And so at that time in life, and I could
see this in hindsight, that's the best time to take
those risks, right is early on when you don't have
a you know, family, and you don't have other aspects
that you people that are depending on you and these
kind of things, and so, um, those were the kind
of like the kind of as I reflect on things,
(09:39):
It really boils down to, you know, the mission of
the organization and kind of what they wanted to achieve
was interesting. The people that I felt like, Okay, this
is gonna be a place I can learn and grow
and they're gonna challenge me, and I want to work
with these folks. And then fundamentally like the opportunity for
me and for the company. Um like, I felt like
there was something especial there. I could have never in
a million years, you know, imagined it would grow to
(10:00):
where we got it too, But that was kind of
the going in thesis at least. But it became one
of the most valuable companies in the world. And I
mean a BlackBerry was very soon a status symbol. If
you had a BlackBerry, you were you know, you were
important within your company, yes, right, And and then you
you left and you took a chance and another small
(10:22):
company called SNAs And we'll come to that in a minute.
But you know, these days we're talking so much about
disruption and innovation. When you look back at your time
at r I AM, when you just look back at
the company, do you think I AM could have disrupted
a little bit more, innovated a little more, did the
BlackBerry have a chance absolutely UM. And so this is
(10:46):
Jim Collins has a great quote quote which is, you know,
it's not about what the world does to you, but
you know kind of what you do to yourself. And
so I'm a big believer in the fact that, you know,
companies ultimately determine their own destiny and have choices that
if they go different or actions will result in different outcomes.
And so you know, one of the most important decisions
(11:06):
was not to extend a BlackBerry Messenger to other platforms.
So we actually had we had the world's most daily
used instant messaging service at that point with eighty million
daily active users. What's Happen at that point was the
second largest with about five million daily users. UM. But
it's secret sauce and the reason it sold for so
much money to Facebook was it was working on iOS
(11:29):
and Android UM as well. And so ours was eighty
million daily active users just on BlackBerry. And so we
actually had it running on iOS and Android, and there
was a faction inside the company that wanted to put
it on these other devices and make it an open
standard so that we could build that as another business.
But UM in classic innovator's dilemma, you know, for um
(11:51):
kind of thinking the hardware. There was another faction in
the company was very focused on hardware revenue and seeing
it as a reason people would buy the hardware. And
so they didn't want to do that because as they thought,
it would hurt our hardware revenue. And I think in hindsight,
we needed to cannibalize our own hardware revenue in the
same way Apple cannibalize their iPod with the iPhone, um,
you know, in order to get to the next thing,
(12:12):
right and build another business. And I think this is
an important lesson, which is like you have to be
thinking and looking around the corners to understand, okay, like
is there something else coming and do we need to
be extending this in the different ways of the world changing? Right?
Are the trends around here different? Um? And so you know,
we I think we had a huge opportunity and we
just didn't make the right decision in that front. And
(12:34):
you know, we made some other decisions in terms of
responding to the iPhone. So Verizon came and wrote us
a massive check, and we responded to the iPhone instead
of building the next best BlackBerry and continuing like to
stay focused on customers and really, you know, make sure
that we're doing something that's unique and builds on our strengths,
um and delivers on what a customers need. Is we
(12:56):
got distracted and focused on building a response to the
iPhone and that's never a good sign and never a
thing to do. It's easy to say in hindsight, but
there's a lot of companies you watch that will respond
with a copycat product and it rarely does that ever work.
How is that learning influenced your strategy? Now it's on us. Yeah,
so that those two you know, kind of learnings if
(13:18):
you will. One, I'm you know, extremely paranoid because having
gone through an amazing ride and building a company up
to twenty billion dollars in revenue. Um. You know, I
think doing that and doing that at a at a
young age, as I came out and did that, you
kind of take it for granted and um, and so
I'm much more paranoid about what's changing in the world,
what are we not doing right, what's going to threaten
(13:39):
us and threaten our business? And so too. Examples that
kind of build on those that I gave you about
rim is we were faced with an opportunity to and
this was very this because we've always built our own
products and done it all ourselves. We were approached a
few years ago by Ikea to do a potential partnership
and they they actually proposed a lamp speaker which is
(14:04):
out in the world now, and as well a picture
frame speaker and some some foreign factors that we had
never really you know, thought of as something that we
would do, and they obviously are in way more countries
than Sons was at that particular point in time, and
they wanted to do it at a price point that
we would never reach on our own, and so there
was a lot of soul searching in the company. We'll
wait a minute. We've never you know, given our software
(14:25):
and expertise to help another company, you know, build products
that would fit in our ecosystem. And to me, it
was very akin to that UM idea at rim of okay,
like maybe opening BlackBerry messager up to other products and
thinking differently about the way we approached this. And so
we struck a partnership with Ikea UM that's been very successful,
using our software and leveraging all of that and some
(14:47):
of our hardware and expertise, and it's helped us reach
millions of new customers that we wouldn't have reached before.
And then, you know, our belief is there will be
lifelong Sonos customers buy some of our other products and
these types of things. But it was very much like
a cultural shift inside the organization. But I draw the
line right back to you know, some of the experience
I had um at Rim and then I would say
(15:09):
on the don't respond, you know, directly to your competitors front.
When Amazon and Google jumped into the smart speaker category,
they brought out these twenty five dollar speakers that they
don't make money on but they're using to try and
get into your home and get you to use their services.
And there was a faction of at sons that said,
we need to go build one of those twenty five speakers.
(15:29):
And I said, that is exactly what we're not going
to do, because you're not going to go respond like
we that that's not what we do. We build premium products,
right and instead we use their services. So we were
the first company to support both of the voice services
from Amazon and Google for our customers, and they could
choose which one to use on their two plus products, right,
(15:50):
so you get that option of using the best of
what Amazon and Google have. You get the choice, you're
not locked into one ecosystem, and you get a much better,
higher quality product that's going to last longer. And so
you know, there's a different you know, there's a different
way to compete and compete on your own strengths, right
and for the customer you want to go after, as
opposed to simply responding to what you know somebody else
(16:13):
jumping into the category is doing. And so those are
you know, learnings that I think really directly came from
my experience at REM. What got you interested in technology
in the first place? When I I was so fortunate
when I was in second grade, UM at an elementary
school I grew up in a small town in Canada.
UM we were one of the schools that UM we're
(16:35):
given was given a Commodore computer UM and those. Yeah,
and so because I think it was because of my grades,
I had an opportunity to spend time programming it and
get used. And then we started a computer club and
got into it, and I was just amazed, you know.
(16:55):
And so from there my parents eventually splursh and got
us a commodore said four for the home, and I
started doing some programming and I just I just loved
the possibilities right and and the idea of what technology
could represent and push us forward. And it felt like
the future UM to me. And so I really got
in touch with that again. I kind of went away
(17:15):
from it UM for a few years when I was
in school and that kind of stuff, but then when
I was coming out, I was I kind of got
back into it. I didn't internship UM at IBM, working
on their laptop team and kind of working in technology again,
and I was just so excited about the products and
actually building something. And you know, the most the thing
that is so awesome about working at Sons and it
(17:36):
was about where you at Blackberries. You tell someone like
where you work and what you work on, and they're like, oh,
I love it, right, I love that product. And you
see them light up and you you know, you see
what you're delivering, and you're delivering something that UM you know,
either makes them more productive in the case of BlackBerry
UM or you know, really brings joy to their life
with Sons, and that's the best. And I just love
(17:56):
bringing all the pieces together. It's so complicated, right, compare
are to many things that are out there, especially with
supply chain challenges that we've seen these days. But it
is so rewarding to me to then see how you
bring these things together, work with people that really care
about building an amazing experience, right, and something that's different
and new, um and then just you know, um, the
(18:18):
customer reactions the best. So you grew up in Canada
and you often talk about that you're a proud Canadian.
You reference Canada a fair amount of your introduced What
would it like to grow up in Canada and how
does being Canadian, if at all, influence you the person
that you are? A great question. I mean it is
in Canada. As you grow up because the United States
(18:40):
is so big and so influential, you can't help but
think about like kind of be outside of yourself and
thinking about the external world. And so Canadians are very
much thinking one because of the humility generally, but too
they're they're thinking outside themselves and thinking about um, others
in the United States and trying to figure things out. UM.
(19:01):
And I think a little bit more curious in that way, UM,
and just externally focused. And so I think it puts
your mindset in a way where um, you're a little
bit more self aware, um, and a little bit more
aware of um, your your place in the world a
little bit and that you have to you have to
adjust and adapt and you know, if you're not going
to be able to just be in Canada necessarily, if
(19:23):
you want to build something special, right, and so how
do you you know, how do you watch and observe
and kind of adapt to different cultures, not just the
United States but globally, right, which was our challenge, I
would say at RIM and I found I think there's
a you know, because of the reputation of Canada, we
get a bit of a you know, a bit of
an open door to a lot of the countries that
we try to do business because we ended up doing
(19:45):
and doing business in most countries around the world. UM.
So that kind of helps as you go in. But
I also think it helps because we're very curious and
very much UM want to collaborate, UM, want to understand,
want to learn, and we don't approach anything with the
idea that we have everything figured out. And so I
think as a leader as well, I think there's some
benefits to being a leader in that way. UM. That
(20:06):
also attracts um great people and you know, and makes
it more of a collaborative effort certainly. You know, I
think a lot of UM, a lot of what I
use every day was much more uh from my sports
background growing playing a lot of team sports, and you know,
how do you collaborate and kind of um, you know,
team up to maybe beat a team that has more
(20:29):
talented players, but together, if everybody you know plays their role,
you can be more successful. And I think that's been,
you know, ironically enough like that my kind of my
career story too, because who would have guessed a you know,
a small company from a small town in Canada could
become the world leader in smartphones? And who would have
guessed that, you know, a small company, UM in a
you know, in a in a city outside of Silicon Valley,
(20:52):
you know, would actually become the world's leading smart speaker company. UM.
And so it's always been a bit of like an
underdog type approach and I think that's very Canadian as well.
You've just done so many things I want to ask
you about. I want to be trying to go to
first spunder doll approach. I want to talk about that.
But before that, you know, when thing struck me, you
said that because if you're great, you've got this commodore computer.
(21:15):
Where you were really studious kid. I know you're I
know you're a very sporty person and that sport has
played a big part in your life. So what was
the balance like for you as a kid. Yeah, I
think I was. I was both UM and I was
just very driven to achieve, uh, and you know, whether
it was in sports or you know, or even like
(21:37):
singing in the choir, being in the play, you know,
and wanting to kind of do everything. So it was
very much anythink my parents encouraged me to try kind
of everything and tried pretty much every sport out there. UM,
tried a bunch of activities and and it was naturally
curious to kind of learn more and kind of you
get engaged in everything. And I loved school and I
loved learning. And I think that's a reflection of you know,
(22:00):
both my parents and as well our our teachers that
you know, I was lucky enough to have, um I
think instill that in people right or one way or
the other. And so UM. But yeah, I was very
studious as well, and so UM but I loved it,
Like I mean, as I look back, you know, it
was just the things that I enjoyed and I wanted
to spend time on and I couldn't wait, you know,
and what is in school? I couldn't wait to get
(22:20):
home and you get on the Commodore sixty four and
like program the greatest thing out of Bite magazine. And
then sometimes it was like, okay, you know, we have
a basketball game or a baseball game, and um I
was super excited about those things too. So I was
just really engaged and curious. I would say, so this curiosity,
this designed to keep pushing yourself to excel. Does it
(22:40):
come more from mom from dad? Or tell me a
little bit about that, because you said your parents really
supported you, but you obviously really pushed yourself. I'm just curious.
What was the atmosphere like at home? Yeah, well, um
so it wouldn't interesting. As I like kind of reflect
on that, I think they were. They were just very
port of um my mom's Like for example, that stands
(23:04):
out that you remember it well? The one, you know,
the most probably the most interesting one is that, because
I'll go a little bit further, I think this, you know,
kind of brings everything to it. For is, my father
worked for the provincially owned hydro utility company for thirty
one years, like that was his career, right, And so
when I was I was deciding between you know, an
(23:27):
opportunity at IBM or at RIM, which was obviously much
more risky nobody knew who Rim. Was like, is this
copy ever? You're gonna be business? You know? My dad said, um,
he was like, I'm so supportive of you going to Rim,
and like give it a chance, right, you know, give it,
take the risk, even though he worked at a place
for thirty weeks really safe, right, all of that, And
so that was like that is one of those things
(23:48):
that I'm not sure I would have made that decision
if I didn't, you know, ultimately have that support. And
then I think the other anecdote I would give you
is just their presence, Like for whatever I was choosing
to you, their presence and support, so showing up at
all of the games, right and just being there and
being there you know for school events and some of
(24:09):
those academic moments too. And I think just the the
fact that they were so supportive of anything I was
going to do. I just think that gives you a
degree of confidence, right and helps you helps push you forward.
And so, um, yeah, I couldn't ask for more supportive parents.
And you I know that family is really important to
you and you try to do the same for your
(24:30):
two daughters. Yeah, and they made a big decision, um,
you know, in the pandemic to also return to Canada
and go to a boarding school, which they did on
their own, you know, they did on their own, um initiative.
And so it was a challenging thing for me and
my wife because you know, they decided to return and
(24:51):
we want to be supportive of them, but we also
never imagine they would leave us in school years on
ones a senior in high school and the other as
a sophomore in high school. And so we we thought we,
you know, we would have them for a few more years,
and we don't. But again, I think I think it's
one of those things you paid forward, right, because we've
(25:12):
been very supportive of them doing that, and they're having
an incredible time and they're loving the school and the
city they're in Canada, and they love to be back
in Canada and and and so you know, the best
thing that my wife and I could do is just
support them in that and help build their confidence as
we go through it. And so it's funny the way
these things, you know, do get paid forward. You're empty,
nest does a little ahead of time. That's right, That's
(25:34):
exactly right. Yeah, you much you want to listen them
a lot. Uh, don't don't go there. I have a
son as a freshman in high school, and just the
fact that he's in high school, I think, oh my god,
only three years oh right, right, right, So imagine if
you left, because that's what that's what younger were left. Right,
It's like, oh my goodness. And I'm not thinking about
(25:55):
that just yet myself a few more years, right, And
you talked about this underdog mentality, and you know, I
mean this is a very well reported part of sumus
is history. But classic David and collided the fight. You know,
you're painted infringement with Google earlier this year. Um, you
(26:17):
won that, right, you won that. The US International Trade
Commission rule that Google's much because did infringe on five
of your patents. Congratulations on the victory than you. But
I mean that's a hell of a fight. And weren't
you really nervous taking on Google? You know it's um.
(26:39):
There were some moments like a sleepless nights where you're
like the right thing to do right in terms of
taking on Google. But but I also think, um, you know,
everything kind of happens, you know, for for a reason
as you kind of go through this and understand. And
I think I was at a point in my career
where I've seen a lot and understood a lot. And
(26:59):
also I lived through a period where there have been
big companies before and powerful companies right that we've competed against.
So back in the room days, we compete to get
Microsoft and qual Calm and some of these other large companies.
But I really saw, you know, I've really seen um
with some of the large tech companies today, this continued
pattern of you know, if they see anything that gets traction,
(27:21):
jumping into it and really trying to destroy the economics
and really use their balance sheet to harm the other
companies that are in there. And oftentimes those startups aren't
in a position that they can actually fight back, right
they either haven't filed the intellectual property or they don't
have the financial wherewithal and balance sheet to do it right.
And so I felt a real you know, obligation to
(27:43):
do it and to stand up for what's right. And
it sounds so cliche, but fundamentally, you know, like you
do have to take a stand at some point and
say this just isn't right. And that that to me,
you know, has been the biggest thing through this, and
it helped, you know, kick off some of the things
that have happened in Congress subsequently around anti truck us
and all of these things. And I just I really
think that, um we I think that that companies have
(28:06):
learned how to perfect the monopoly and extend of monopoly
into particular areas, and I don't think that's good for
citizens of the country, right, And I think fundamentally that
you know, we need to make sure that that we
are we're not allowing power to concentrate into few hands.
That never turns out well in any scenario in history.
(28:27):
And so certainly I felt some you know, I felt like,
is this the right thing for SOEs? What I really
focused in on was how do I make sure it's
not a distraction, because we need to continue to innovate, right,
continue to bring out great products, like you cannot stop
that part of it. Too many companies that have been
down this road end up in a situation where they're
just focused on the litigation and the history of it.
(28:48):
And so we have an amazing general counsel and a
team on the intellectual property side that stays focused on that.
My team and the company is focused on the next
innovation and making sure that how pins and so that
was probably like the most risky thing, you know from
my perspective, was how do how do I make sure
we don't end up in a situation where we're allowing
(29:08):
this to distract us. And so, you know, we've continued
our innovation, We've continued to this new products, we continue
to grow, we're more successful, more profitable. Um, So I
think we're on the right path and I think we're
you know, doing the right thing in terms of trying
to hold um, you know, people that are doing the
wrong things accountable and so, um it's been good to
see the validation in the in actually winning the cases.
(29:30):
You know, we have many more that are forward. We
believe that Google infringes over a hundred and fifty of
our patents and so we only you know, had the
had the trial on five at this point. But yeah,
it was big. There was some sleepless nights. I have
a very supportive board that also agreed as the right
thing to do, and you know, we really coalesced around
all right. You know, um like we can't let people,
(29:51):
we can't just stand idely by. You know, there's so
many people that we were I think at that point
eighteen years you know, into the company, and so many
people had put so much energy and there's so much
of their life into building all of this, and then
you know, I can't sit idly by. Well people, um,
you know, see that copied and um just you know,
kind of trampled over. And so I have a duty,
(30:11):
I felt to the people that invented, you know, all
of this, many of whom are still here, um to
stand up for it. And hopefully, you know, ushers in
a new era where companies will think twice about doing that.
Big companies, as startups come in. But I don't know
if we'll have to see all of this place that
you said, you have a duty to the people you know,
(30:32):
who are personas who created the technology. What kind of
leader do you think you are? What are the values
that are most important to you as a business leader? Yeah,
I think I hold myself to the highest um you know,
standards and and walking to talk is really important you
know to me, UM, I do think I come from
(30:53):
a place of trusting our people and you know, really
feeling like I'm in a position to serve them and
I need to create an environment that allows them to
do great work. So, UM, you know, we want to
be a place where people can do the best work
of their life and everyone feels welcome and included. And
I talk very openly about that. Um. You know when
I said we threw out the playbook when the pandemic struck,
(31:15):
at number one thing was support our people. To make
sure that we're doing that, because that's that's the impact
we can ultimately have. And so we have a clear
set of behaviors that I expect from people, UM, respect, ownership, transparency,
and collaboration. And we detail what those mean. And then
as for instance, you know, for my the people that
report to me, and then for all leaders inside the company,
we measure them and their performance on on what they achieve,
(31:39):
so the work that's done, but as well on how
they achieve it, and so are they living to those
behaviors and um, you know, making sure that we're leading
in the right way and creating that kind of environment,
and I really think it pays off in performance. And
then I think it pays off as well in retention
because we're not seeing the kind of um, you know,
attrition that so many companies have seen you through the
(32:00):
Great Resignation. And so I think if you treat people
that way, you come from that position of trust, you
can build an amazing company of great people that you
know are going to be loyal over the long period
of time. And that's that's what I want to build.
I want to build something. You know, having gone through
what I did at RIM, one of the most important
things to me is that, you know, ten twenty years
after my time at Sanos has done, Zonos is still
(32:22):
growing and relevant and a company people want to work at.
And if I can look back, then that will have
been you know, an incredible um legacy, an impact for me. Trust.
We've gone back to talking about trust, which is what
we began this conversation about talking about. And I'm just curious.
You know, every company does have a culture, and trust
is obviously very important to your company's culture. How does
(32:45):
a leader, how does the CEO actually create a culture.
How do you let every single person in your company
know that you trust them and they should trust you.
And how do you create a culture of trust? It's
very eat to talk about it, but how do you
talk late and totally easy to also put it, you know,
as a value on a poster, right or say something
(33:05):
like that. But the rubber meets the road in a
situation like the pandemic striking, and what are we going
to prioritize? Right? And in that situation, you know, throwing
out the playbook and then saying we're going to support
our people, We're gonna do care time like some of
those things I think builds that And so you know,
it's all about the actions that you take. But I'll
tell you the other big one is something like intentional flexibility.
(33:27):
There's all these things swirling around right when it comes
how are we gonna go back to office? When are
we going to do that? You know, the reality is
we try. You know, if we trust our people, then
intentional flexibility is exactly the right thing to do, because
we trust you to have a conversation with your manager,
to do an assessment of where your best placed. Like
it all comes through in the actions in the way
that you um you know, in the way that you
(33:49):
are deciding what you're going to do. You know, we um,
we're pretty um, you know, we trust people when it
comes to travel, like some of these things. We don't
get very policy focused on some of those things. Said,
so it really boils down to the actions and the
policies you're putting in the organization or the lack of policies.
If you have like a nine page you know, kind
(34:09):
of how how you travel and travel policy and all
this stuff, I would argue, you don't trust people. And
so you know, like there's some of those things, um
that I so, I think it's actions speak louder than words.
That's you know, a big, big part of it. And
you're you know, you're challenged on it um every single day.
And I think you see it in the decisions that
we make as an organization because it's much more than
(34:30):
just me. But um, you know, I think right now
probably the you can look at every company and you
can determine, I would argue how much they trust their
people based on how are they approaching their um you know,
kind of the next phase of return to office or not.
As we go through this in a really interesting time
and how does that play into the retention or attrition
(34:50):
they're seeing as well. I mean there's something fascinating to
that right now at this point in time, because I
think I think if we boil it all down, it
gets back to the trust and do you trust your
people to but you know, like do their work and
figure out where their best and most effective um or
are you or is it about you and about what
you need as a leader right to do you need
to see people around? And do you feel like you
(35:12):
need to see them in order to know that they're
doing work right for instance? Which um I just think
it is misguided quite frankly, Oh, I couldn't agree with
you more. And it just it's we're such a pivotal
point in our in our history right where I think
the prist work has changed forever and it does just
come down to trust, it really doesnt. But the employees
(35:32):
are demanding it now as well. I feel like my
boss doesn't trust me that I'm going to get my
work done from home. You know, people will go somewhere else.
That's I totally agree. I think that that's exactly I
think that's exactly why people are going elsewhere. Is is
because this, you know, the trust or lack of trust, um,
you know kind of gets highlighted in all of this, right,
(35:53):
So yeah, yeah, And of course I have to ask
you a CEOs on us, what do you enjoy listening to?
What's up playlist? And how do you enjoy your music?
And what do you listen to? Yeah, so, I mean
I listened to all genres. You won't be surprised. I'm
a huge, like hip hop fan from a long you know,
a long time ago, and obviously with Canadian roots, Drake
and The Weekend are some of the bigger ones that
(36:14):
you know, Um, I enjoy for sure. But I've recently
joined the Music Academy of the West, which is a
music academy here in Santa Barbara, and so I'm starting
to listen to more classical. So there's classical on so
it's radio I've been listening to and I've been trying
to understand and appreciate that, and I really, you know,
I'm kind of getting into it um now. But we
also have an amazing concert venue here at the Santa
Barbara Bowl. Um where we go see people and who
(36:39):
did we who did we just go to? Because we
go to so many UM, we just brought my mother
in law to someone, Uh Johnny. Oh, he's a Grammy
Award wind. I've never been to a blue grass count
concert before. UM. I can't remember his name it, but
it was amazing. Anyway, you know, we're trying to we're
(37:00):
trying to. We try to listen to all we can.
Um that's out there, and you know, UM, I just
love all the music and I think it tells the
story and also brings us back to, you know, points
in our life where we could reconnect with the emotions
of that moment. And so I often use music to
go back to certain times in my life and it
fills me with a certain emotion. So I think this
(37:21):
podcast has gone out of office. What's if you everything
to do when you're out of the office. Uh, definitely Uh,
physical things. So I work out on the beach every
morning that I'm in Santa Barbara, and then we run
in the mountains on weekends, and so um, when I'm
when I'm not working, I'm usually running or working out
(37:41):
being active. YEA, thank you so much for your time.
I really enjoyed our conversation. Me too, Thank you. That
was my conversation with Patrick ex fanse Ceo also on us.
I really enjoyed this Jatt and I especially liked his
ideas around trust and have you linked it to intense
no flexibility, which is so important and so relevant today.
(38:04):
Let me know what you think. My Twitter handle is.
This is Melica. Remember our of pofices on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
The Bloomberg Terminal and Bloomberg dot Com, so do check
out some of the other episodes. This episode of Out
of Office was produced by Yang Yang. I'm a Lika Kupol.
As always, thank you for listening.
Hello, and welcome back to Out of Office. I'm your host,
Melika Kapoor. I love a good underdog story, and my
guest today exemplifies that. Meet Patrick Spence. He joined a
little known company, Research in Motion, when no one had
heard of it. This is before it became a global
sensation as the maker of the BlackBerry device, remember that
(00:23):
the BlackBerry. Well, after thirteen years there he joined another
unknown company today you know it as Sonas, the hardware
audio company that introduced smart speakers to a mass audience. Patrick,
who has been CEO of Sona since twenty seventeen, joined
me for a wide ranging conversation. What struck me is
a candor with which he talks about mistakes made and
(00:45):
lessons learned and how Blackberries to my shipped his thinking
as a business leader. I think this is an important lesson,
which is like you have to be thinking of looking
around the corners to understand okay, like is there something
else coming? And do we need to be extending this
in the different ways the world changing? Right? Are the
trends around here different? Um? And so you know we
(01:06):
I think we had a huge opportunity and we just
didn't make the right decision. In that front. We also
talked about him taking on tech giants, creating a culture
of trust, his passion for sport, and of course he
reveals what's on his playlist. Here's Patrick Spence on Out
of Office. So if you're ready, she would just get
(01:30):
right into it. Sure, I'm good, excellent, Okay, thank you
so much for joining me on Out of Office. It's
my pleasure you have. The last year were really the
last two years we've all been working from home. We've
been on zoom calls and recording this podcast from home.
It's made everyone think a lot more about audio and sound.
How is this influence to your thinking about sound and
(01:53):
audio quality and how has that influenced your strategy at
so on US. Yeah, you know what we when the
pandemic struck, we really throughout our playbook and you know,
kind of tried to figure out, Okay, what do we
what do you do now right when something like that strikes,
and really connecting back to our mission to be the
world's leading sound experience company, we said, you know what,
we can bring some joy to people, and that's really
(02:14):
what we can do, and that's how we can serve
you know, our customers and the world best at this
particular point in time, and it really working from home
could be a lonely proposition. Um. We don't have the
same kind of energy and environment that we we have
had in the office necessarily, and a big part of
our offices was always music playing and people you know,
having fun, right of course, and that kind of environment.
Right We had artists coming and play and a whole
(02:35):
bunch of those things. And so we really felt we
had an opportunity, um, you know, connected with what we
do to help bring that to people, and so we
launched a series of campaigns to help people set up
their home office and really focus on that and how
to bring music, um and better audio into their home office.
But we also expanded that to our home theater products
(02:57):
because we knew people would be watching a lot more
streaming content and video and we helped make that a
better experience for people and bring you know, a theater
like experience to people's homes. And so we found those
were like two areas we actually felt like we could
do something to make life a little better in a
difficult time, um for people. And then we we actually
(03:17):
did change our roadmap a little bit as well, because
we had some products that UM would have been better suited,
you know, for UM outdoors that then wed prioritized and
we brought those out a little later because we we thought, Okay,
if this is going to be a situation where um,
you know, people are stuck at home, we don't want
to be launching a product which is used outside of
(03:38):
the home, right And so we we made some changes
UM to our roadmap, uh, you know, ultimately to try
and time. You know, what we expect at that point
would be a lockdown of a few months. But ultimately,
you know, we had to Uh we we've obviously we should.
The world's changed completely and we've adapted and kind of
dealt with that. But I think it it kind of
(03:59):
got us back to our core and helped us realize,
you know, hey, we can actually help people out in
this moment. And and that's a great feeling, right when
you can do that and create the create an environment
for people where they you know, they get a little
bit more joy at home, and that's fundamentally what we do.
One of the other things you did join the pandemic
is to introduced something called care time, which is know,
(04:20):
is a week for your employees and a monthly holiday.
Is that still in place? And what is it all about?
So when the pandemic struck, you know, I mentioned, we
threw out the playbook and and the number one priority
will support our people and make sure that you know,
we are people would be in a good position, UM,
so equipping them to be able to do their jobs,
but also recognizing that a lot of people had a
(04:42):
lot of other pressures in their lives, whether it's you know,
supporting their family, UM, supporting neighbors, like people in the community,
whatever they were going to do, extended family, and so
we wanted to be supportive of that. UM. We recognized
kind of the mental health challenges that you came with
this time as well, and so like you said, we
we introduced care time, uh eight hours a week in
(05:03):
terms of time that you could take to be with
your family. Just decompress those those kind of things and UM.
And then the holiday we did in off months where
there was no other holiday and just gave people a break. UM.
You know here and there we we you know, we
will do UM and we continue to do holidays every
once in a while when we feel it makes sense
(05:23):
and give people time off. And we have an open
time off policy that I you know, lead by taking
you know, a fair bit of time off as well
and try to socialize inside the organization so that I
set the example that you know, open time off means
actually take time off right and and be able to
go and enjoy um, you know yourself decompressed and do
some of those things. UM. And we still continue to
(05:45):
have care time as well. And really I think the
challenge for every company, for leaders, um and right down
to every person inside the company is as the world reopens, UM,
and we hit this new phase right because it's not
going back to what we were before. It's an entirely
new phase days UM, and we have new things to
figure out. It is how do we you know, lead
(06:05):
a balanced integrated life UM, you know between all aspects
of what we need to do. And I think we're
trying to figure that out. UM. You know we UM,
we've really gone down the path of something called intentional flexibility,
which is about you know, starts with from a fundamental
place of trusting our people UM and helping them you know,
(06:26):
they know their job best. And so what we actually
do is have them work with their manager to determine
are they you know what's the right working arrangement for them.
Is it to be working from home the majority of
the time. Is it working the office the majority of time? UM?
I think companies that try to prescribe um, at least
in the kind of industry knowledge industry we are, there's
(06:47):
no one size fits all, and so to try and
prescribe like certain days a week or certain times is
um you know, is I think is just a fool's
errand in this day and age, and so at least
for our business, you know, we've really come at it
from a place of trust and assuming that our people
know their job the best and they can work with
their manager to determine where do they best do their
(07:09):
work as well. What is open time off? Does that
mean you can take it as many days off you
that's right? Yeah, so it's um. Some companies call it
unlimited vacation. We call it open time off, and so
they can you know, people can take as much time.
I think at the end of the day, the thing is,
you know, are you having impact in your role in
(07:30):
the way that we need it? And you know, whether
you choose to work from home, whether you choose to
work from the office, like all of these things. The
thing that matters at the end of the day is
are you delivering what you need to form the role
that you're in. And that's what we try to keep
everybody focused on and understanding and um, you know, and
so yeah, we have the open time off policy and
(07:51):
try to be pretty flexible in working our schedules and
all of the things we need to do to create
it makes some of us a great place to work.
I want to go back to your um to the
start of your career, legalities of your career, and you've
taken a fair number of risks in your professional life,
and you talked about you joint Research in Motion when
it was a tiny unknown company. Of course it became
(08:13):
a household name with BlackBerry later on, but when you
joined it, it had what barely any like a hundred
and fifty employees. Yes, that's right, very very tiny. What
drew you to Research in Motion when it was an
unknown name with such few people? Yeah, you know, it
was really the mission of the company. So so it
(08:36):
was at the intersection of computing, wireless and the Internet,
and so for me that was super interesting. These were
trends that I was kind of following and thought, oh,
this is pretty interesting. Um. Then there were the people,
and this is like one of the most important thing
I try to, um, you know, tell anybody that's kind
of looking for career advice, which is, you know, what,
what do you think of the people that you're going
(08:57):
to work with? And you know, and I just was
lit up by the co founders and the leadership team
that was there, and it just felt like something special
was happening. And then there was the opportunity. And it
was an opportunity for me to get in early um
in a start up, and it was definitely risky, but
I felt like, Okay, this is gonna stretch me, and
this job is gonna stretch me and give me opportunities
(09:17):
I just wouldn't have. And so it taking like a
traditional role at a traditional company that you would go into.
And so at that time in life, and I could
see this in hindsight, that's the best time to take
those risks, right is early on when you don't have
a you know, family, and you don't have other aspects
that you people that are depending on you and these
kind of things, and so, um, those were the kind
of like the kind of as I reflect on things,
(09:39):
It really boils down to, you know, the mission of
the organization and kind of what they wanted to achieve
was interesting. The people that I felt like, Okay, this
is gonna be a place I can learn and grow
and they're gonna challenge me, and I want to work
with these folks. And then fundamentally like the opportunity for
me and for the company. Um like, I felt like
there was something especial there. I could have never in
a million years, you know, imagined it would grow to
(10:00):
where we got it too, But that was kind of
the going in thesis at least. But it became one
of the most valuable companies in the world. And I
mean a BlackBerry was very soon a status symbol. If
you had a BlackBerry, you were you know, you were
important within your company, yes, right, And and then you
you left and you took a chance and another small
(10:22):
company called SNAs And we'll come to that in a minute.
But you know, these days we're talking so much about
disruption and innovation. When you look back at your time
at r I AM, when you just look back at
the company, do you think I AM could have disrupted
a little bit more, innovated a little more, did the
BlackBerry have a chance absolutely UM. And so this is
(10:46):
Jim Collins has a great quote quote which is, you know,
it's not about what the world does to you, but
you know kind of what you do to yourself. And
so I'm a big believer in the fact that, you know,
companies ultimately determine their own destiny and have choices that
if they go different or actions will result in different outcomes.
And so you know, one of the most important decisions
(11:06):
was not to extend a BlackBerry Messenger to other platforms.
So we actually had we had the world's most daily
used instant messaging service at that point with eighty million
daily active users. What's Happen at that point was the
second largest with about five million daily users. UM. But
it's secret sauce and the reason it sold for so
much money to Facebook was it was working on iOS
(11:29):
and Android UM as well. And so ours was eighty
million daily active users just on BlackBerry. And so we
actually had it running on iOS and Android, and there
was a faction inside the company that wanted to put
it on these other devices and make it an open
standard so that we could build that as another business.
But UM in classic innovator's dilemma, you know, for um
(11:51):
kind of thinking the hardware. There was another faction in
the company was very focused on hardware revenue and seeing
it as a reason people would buy the hardware. And
so they didn't want to do that because as they thought,
it would hurt our hardware revenue. And I think in hindsight,
we needed to cannibalize our own hardware revenue in the
same way Apple cannibalize their iPod with the iPhone, um,
you know, in order to get to the next thing,
(12:12):
right and build another business. And I think this is
an important lesson, which is like you have to be
thinking and looking around the corners to understand, okay, like
is there something else coming and do we need to
be extending this in the different ways of the world changing? Right?
Are the trends around here different? Um? And so you know,
we I think we had a huge opportunity and we
just didn't make the right decision in that front. And
(12:34):
you know, we made some other decisions in terms of
responding to the iPhone. So Verizon came and wrote us
a massive check, and we responded to the iPhone instead
of building the next best BlackBerry and continuing like to
stay focused on customers and really, you know, make sure
that we're doing something that's unique and builds on our strengths,
um and delivers on what a customers need. Is we
(12:56):
got distracted and focused on building a response to the
iPhone and that's never a good sign and never a
thing to do. It's easy to say in hindsight, but
there's a lot of companies you watch that will respond
with a copycat product and it rarely does that ever work.
How is that learning influenced your strategy? Now it's on us. Yeah,
so that those two you know, kind of learnings if
(13:18):
you will. One, I'm you know, extremely paranoid because having
gone through an amazing ride and building a company up
to twenty billion dollars in revenue. Um. You know, I
think doing that and doing that at a at a
young age, as I came out and did that, you
kind of take it for granted and um, and so
I'm much more paranoid about what's changing in the world,
what are we not doing right, what's going to threaten
(13:39):
us and threaten our business? And so too. Examples that
kind of build on those that I gave you about
rim is we were faced with an opportunity to and
this was very this because we've always built our own
products and done it all ourselves. We were approached a
few years ago by Ikea to do a potential partnership
and they they actually proposed a lamp speaker which is
(14:04):
out in the world now, and as well a picture
frame speaker and some some foreign factors that we had
never really you know, thought of as something that we
would do, and they obviously are in way more countries
than Sons was at that particular point in time, and
they wanted to do it at a price point that
we would never reach on our own, and so there
was a lot of soul searching in the company. We'll
wait a minute. We've never you know, given our software
(14:25):
and expertise to help another company, you know, build products
that would fit in our ecosystem. And to me, it
was very akin to that UM idea at rim of okay,
like maybe opening BlackBerry messager up to other products and
thinking differently about the way we approached this. And so
we struck a partnership with Ikea UM that's been very successful,
using our software and leveraging all of that and some
(14:47):
of our hardware and expertise, and it's helped us reach
millions of new customers that we wouldn't have reached before.
And then, you know, our belief is there will be
lifelong Sonos customers buy some of our other products and
these types of things. But it was very much like
a cultural shift inside the organization. But I draw the
line right back to you know, some of the experience
I had um at Rim and then I would say
(15:09):
on the don't respond, you know, directly to your competitors front.
When Amazon and Google jumped into the smart speaker category,
they brought out these twenty five dollar speakers that they
don't make money on but they're using to try and
get into your home and get you to use their services.
And there was a faction of at sons that said,
we need to go build one of those twenty five speakers.
(15:29):
And I said, that is exactly what we're not going
to do, because you're not going to go respond like
we that that's not what we do. We build premium products,
right and instead we use their services. So we were
the first company to support both of the voice services
from Amazon and Google for our customers, and they could
choose which one to use on their two plus products, right,
(15:50):
so you get that option of using the best of
what Amazon and Google have. You get the choice, you're
not locked into one ecosystem, and you get a much better,
higher quality product that's going to last longer. And so
you know, there's a different you know, there's a different
way to compete and compete on your own strengths, right
and for the customer you want to go after, as
opposed to simply responding to what you know somebody else
(16:13):
jumping into the category is doing. And so those are
you know, learnings that I think really directly came from
my experience at REM. What got you interested in technology
in the first place? When I I was so fortunate
when I was in second grade, UM at an elementary
school I grew up in a small town in Canada.
UM we were one of the schools that UM we're
(16:35):
given was given a Commodore computer UM and those. Yeah,
and so because I think it was because of my grades,
I had an opportunity to spend time programming it and
get used. And then we started a computer club and
got into it, and I was just amazed, you know.
(16:55):
And so from there my parents eventually splursh and got
us a commodore said four for the home, and I
started doing some programming and I just I just loved
the possibilities right and and the idea of what technology
could represent and push us forward. And it felt like
the future UM to me. And so I really got
in touch with that again. I kind of went away
(17:15):
from it UM for a few years when I was
in school and that kind of stuff, but then when
I was coming out, I was I kind of got
back into it. I didn't internship UM at IBM, working
on their laptop team and kind of working in technology again,
and I was just so excited about the products and
actually building something. And you know, the most the thing
that is so awesome about working at Sons and it
(17:36):
was about where you at Blackberries. You tell someone like
where you work and what you work on, and they're like, oh,
I love it, right, I love that product. And you
see them light up and you you know, you see
what you're delivering, and you're delivering something that UM you know,
either makes them more productive in the case of BlackBerry
UM or you know, really brings joy to their life
with Sons, and that's the best. And I just love
(17:56):
bringing all the pieces together. It's so complicated, right, compare
are to many things that are out there, especially with
supply chain challenges that we've seen these days. But it
is so rewarding to me to then see how you
bring these things together, work with people that really care
about building an amazing experience, right, and something that's different
and new, um and then just you know, um, the
(18:18):
customer reactions the best. So you grew up in Canada
and you often talk about that you're a proud Canadian.
You reference Canada a fair amount of your introduced What
would it like to grow up in Canada and how
does being Canadian, if at all, influence you the person
that you are? A great question. I mean it is
in Canada. As you grow up because the United States
(18:40):
is so big and so influential, you can't help but
think about like kind of be outside of yourself and
thinking about the external world. And so Canadians are very
much thinking one because of the humility generally, but too
they're they're thinking outside themselves and thinking about um, others
in the United States and trying to figure things out. UM.
(19:01):
And I think a little bit more curious in that way, UM,
and just externally focused. And so I think it puts
your mindset in a way where um, you're a little
bit more self aware, um, and a little bit more
aware of um, your your place in the world a
little bit and that you have to you have to
adjust and adapt and you know, if you're not going
to be able to just be in Canada necessarily, if
(19:23):
you want to build something special, right, and so how
do you you know, how do you watch and observe
and kind of adapt to different cultures, not just the
United States but globally, right, which was our challenge, I
would say at RIM and I found I think there's
a you know, because of the reputation of Canada, we
get a bit of a you know, a bit of
an open door to a lot of the countries that
we try to do business because we ended up doing
(19:45):
and doing business in most countries around the world. UM.
So that kind of helps as you go in. But
I also think it helps because we're very curious and
very much UM want to collaborate, UM, want to understand,
want to learn, and we don't approach anything with the
idea that we have everything figured out. And so I
think as a leader as well, I think there's some
benefits to being a leader in that way. UM. That
(20:06):
also attracts um great people and you know, and makes
it more of a collaborative effort certainly. You know, I
think a lot of UM, a lot of what I
use every day was much more uh from my sports
background growing playing a lot of team sports, and you know,
how do you collaborate and kind of um, you know,
team up to maybe beat a team that has more
(20:29):
talented players, but together, if everybody you know plays their role,
you can be more successful. And I think that's been,
you know, ironically enough like that my kind of my
career story too, because who would have guessed a you know,
a small company from a small town in Canada could
become the world leader in smartphones? And who would have
guessed that, you know, a small company, UM in a
you know, in a in a city outside of Silicon Valley,
(20:52):
you know, would actually become the world's leading smart speaker company. UM.
And so it's always been a bit of like an
underdog type approach and I think that's very Canadian as well.
You've just done so many things I want to ask
you about. I want to be trying to go to
first spunder doll approach. I want to talk about that.
But before that, you know, when thing struck me, you
said that because if you're great, you've got this commodore computer.
(21:15):
Where you were really studious kid. I know you're I
know you're a very sporty person and that sport has
played a big part in your life. So what was
the balance like for you as a kid. Yeah, I
think I was. I was both UM and I was
just very driven to achieve, uh, and you know, whether
it was in sports or you know, or even like
(21:37):
singing in the choir, being in the play, you know,
and wanting to kind of do everything. So it was
very much anythink my parents encouraged me to try kind
of everything and tried pretty much every sport out there. UM,
tried a bunch of activities and and it was naturally
curious to kind of learn more and kind of you
get engaged in everything. And I loved school and I
loved learning. And I think that's a reflection of you know,
(22:00):
both my parents and as well our our teachers that
you know, I was lucky enough to have, um I
think instill that in people right or one way or
the other. And so UM. But yeah, I was very
studious as well, and so UM but I loved it,
Like I mean, as I look back, you know, it
was just the things that I enjoyed and I wanted
to spend time on and I couldn't wait, you know,
and what is in school? I couldn't wait to get
(22:20):
home and you get on the Commodore sixty four and
like program the greatest thing out of Bite magazine. And
then sometimes it was like, okay, you know, we have
a basketball game or a baseball game, and um I
was super excited about those things too. So I was
just really engaged and curious. I would say, so this curiosity,
this designed to keep pushing yourself to excel. Does it
(22:40):
come more from mom from dad? Or tell me a
little bit about that, because you said your parents really
supported you, but you obviously really pushed yourself. I'm just curious.
What was the atmosphere like at home? Yeah, well, um
so it wouldn't interesting. As I like kind of reflect
on that, I think they were. They were just very
port of um my mom's Like for example, that stands
(23:04):
out that you remember it well? The one, you know,
the most probably the most interesting one is that, because
I'll go a little bit further, I think this, you know,
kind of brings everything to it. For is, my father
worked for the provincially owned hydro utility company for thirty
one years, like that was his career, right, And so
when I was I was deciding between you know, an
(23:27):
opportunity at IBM or at RIM, which was obviously much
more risky nobody knew who Rim. Was like, is this
copy ever? You're gonna be business? You know? My dad said, um,
he was like, I'm so supportive of you going to Rim,
and like give it a chance, right, you know, give it,
take the risk, even though he worked at a place
for thirty weeks really safe, right, all of that, And
so that was like that is one of those things
(23:48):
that I'm not sure I would have made that decision
if I didn't, you know, ultimately have that support. And
then I think the other anecdote I would give you
is just their presence, Like for whatever I was choosing
to you, their presence and support, so showing up at
all of the games, right and just being there and
being there you know for school events and some of
(24:09):
those academic moments too. And I think just the the
fact that they were so supportive of anything I was
going to do. I just think that gives you a
degree of confidence, right and helps you helps push you forward.
And so, um, yeah, I couldn't ask for more supportive parents.
And you I know that family is really important to
you and you try to do the same for your
(24:30):
two daughters. Yeah, and they made a big decision, um,
you know, in the pandemic to also return to Canada
and go to a boarding school, which they did on
their own, you know, they did on their own, um initiative.
And so it was a challenging thing for me and
my wife because you know, they decided to return and
(24:51):
we want to be supportive of them, but we also
never imagine they would leave us in school years on
ones a senior in high school and the other as
a sophomore in high school. And so we we thought we,
you know, we would have them for a few more years,
and we don't. But again, I think I think it's
one of those things you paid forward, right, because we've
(25:12):
been very supportive of them doing that, and they're having
an incredible time and they're loving the school and the
city they're in Canada, and they love to be back
in Canada and and and so you know, the best
thing that my wife and I could do is just
support them in that and help build their confidence as
we go through it. And so it's funny the way
these things, you know, do get paid forward. You're empty,
nest does a little ahead of time. That's right, That's
(25:34):
exactly right. Yeah, you much you want to listen them
a lot. Uh, don't don't go there. I have a
son as a freshman in high school, and just the
fact that he's in high school, I think, oh my god,
only three years oh right, right, right, So imagine if
you left, because that's what that's what younger were left. Right,
It's like, oh my goodness. And I'm not thinking about
(25:55):
that just yet myself a few more years, right, And
you talked about this underdog mentality, and you know, I
mean this is a very well reported part of sumus
is history. But classic David and collided the fight. You know,
you're painted infringement with Google earlier this year. Um, you
(26:17):
won that, right, you won that. The US International Trade
Commission rule that Google's much because did infringe on five
of your patents. Congratulations on the victory than you. But
I mean that's a hell of a fight. And weren't
you really nervous taking on Google? You know it's um.
(26:39):
There were some moments like a sleepless nights where you're
like the right thing to do right in terms of
taking on Google. But but I also think, um, you know,
everything kind of happens, you know, for for a reason
as you kind of go through this and understand. And
I think I was at a point in my career
where I've seen a lot and understood a lot. And
(26:59):
also I lived through a period where there have been
big companies before and powerful companies right that we've competed against.
So back in the room days, we compete to get
Microsoft and qual Calm and some of these other large companies.
But I really saw, you know, I've really seen um
with some of the large tech companies today, this continued
pattern of you know, if they see anything that gets traction,
(27:21):
jumping into it and really trying to destroy the economics
and really use their balance sheet to harm the other
companies that are in there. And oftentimes those startups aren't
in a position that they can actually fight back, right
they either haven't filed the intellectual property or they don't
have the financial wherewithal and balance sheet to do it right.
And so I felt a real you know, obligation to
(27:43):
do it and to stand up for what's right. And
it sounds so cliche, but fundamentally, you know, like you
do have to take a stand at some point and
say this just isn't right. And that that to me,
you know, has been the biggest thing through this, and
it helped, you know, kick off some of the things
that have happened in Congress subsequently around anti truck us
and all of these things. And I just I really
think that, um we I think that that companies have
(28:06):
learned how to perfect the monopoly and extend of monopoly
into particular areas, and I don't think that's good for
citizens of the country, right, And I think fundamentally that
you know, we need to make sure that that we
are we're not allowing power to concentrate into few hands.
That never turns out well in any scenario in history.
(28:27):
And so certainly I felt some you know, I felt like,
is this the right thing for SOEs? What I really
focused in on was how do I make sure it's
not a distraction, because we need to continue to innovate, right,
continue to bring out great products, like you cannot stop
that part of it. Too many companies that have been
down this road end up in a situation where they're
just focused on the litigation and the history of it.
(28:48):
And so we have an amazing general counsel and a
team on the intellectual property side that stays focused on that.
My team and the company is focused on the next
innovation and making sure that how pins and so that
was probably like the most risky thing, you know from
my perspective, was how do how do I make sure
we don't end up in a situation where we're allowing
(29:08):
this to distract us. And so, you know, we've continued
our innovation, We've continued to this new products, we continue
to grow, we're more successful, more profitable. Um, So I
think we're on the right path and I think we're
you know, doing the right thing in terms of trying
to hold um, you know, people that are doing the
wrong things accountable and so, um it's been good to
see the validation in the in actually winning the cases.
(29:30):
You know, we have many more that are forward. We
believe that Google infringes over a hundred and fifty of
our patents and so we only you know, had the
had the trial on five at this point. But yeah,
it was big. There was some sleepless nights. I have
a very supportive board that also agreed as the right
thing to do, and you know, we really coalesced around
all right. You know, um like we can't let people,
(29:51):
we can't just stand idely by. You know, there's so
many people that we were I think at that point
eighteen years you know, into the company, and so many
people had put so much energy and there's so much
of their life into building all of this, and then
you know, I can't sit idly by. Well people, um,
you know, see that copied and um just you know,
kind of trampled over. And so I have a duty,
(30:11):
I felt to the people that invented, you know, all
of this, many of whom are still here, um to
stand up for it. And hopefully, you know, ushers in
a new era where companies will think twice about doing that.
Big companies, as startups come in. But I don't know
if we'll have to see all of this place that
you said, you have a duty to the people you know,
(30:32):
who are personas who created the technology. What kind of
leader do you think you are? What are the values
that are most important to you as a business leader? Yeah,
I think I hold myself to the highest um you know,
standards and and walking to talk is really important you
know to me, UM, I do think I come from
(30:53):
a place of trusting our people and you know, really
feeling like I'm in a position to serve them and
I need to create an environment that allows them to
do great work. So, UM, you know, we want to
be a place where people can do the best work
of their life and everyone feels welcome and included. And
I talk very openly about that. Um. You know when
I said we threw out the playbook when the pandemic struck,
(31:15):
at number one thing was support our people. To make
sure that we're doing that, because that's that's the impact
we can ultimately have. And so we have a clear
set of behaviors that I expect from people, UM, respect, ownership, transparency,
and collaboration. And we detail what those mean. And then
as for instance, you know, for my the people that
report to me, and then for all leaders inside the company,
we measure them and their performance on on what they achieve,
(31:39):
so the work that's done, but as well on how
they achieve it, and so are they living to those
behaviors and um, you know, making sure that we're leading
in the right way and creating that kind of environment,
and I really think it pays off in performance. And
then I think it pays off as well in retention
because we're not seeing the kind of um, you know,
attrition that so many companies have seen you through the
(32:00):
Great Resignation. And so I think if you treat people
that way, you come from that position of trust, you
can build an amazing company of great people that you
know are going to be loyal over the long period
of time. And that's that's what I want to build.
I want to build something. You know, having gone through
what I did at RIM, one of the most important
things to me is that, you know, ten twenty years
after my time at Sanos has done, Zonos is still
(32:22):
growing and relevant and a company people want to work at.
And if I can look back, then that will have
been you know, an incredible um legacy, an impact for me. Trust.
We've gone back to talking about trust, which is what
we began this conversation about talking about. And I'm just curious.
You know, every company does have a culture, and trust
is obviously very important to your company's culture. How does
(32:45):
a leader, how does the CEO actually create a culture.
How do you let every single person in your company
know that you trust them and they should trust you.
And how do you create a culture of trust? It's
very eat to talk about it, but how do you
talk late and totally easy to also put it, you know,
as a value on a poster, right or say something
(33:05):
like that. But the rubber meets the road in a
situation like the pandemic striking, and what are we going
to prioritize? Right? And in that situation, you know, throwing
out the playbook and then saying we're going to support
our people, We're gonna do care time like some of
those things I think builds that And so you know,
it's all about the actions that you take. But I'll
tell you the other big one is something like intentional flexibility.
(33:27):
There's all these things swirling around right when it comes
how are we gonna go back to office? When are
we going to do that? You know, the reality is
we try. You know, if we trust our people, then
intentional flexibility is exactly the right thing to do, because
we trust you to have a conversation with your manager,
to do an assessment of where your best placed. Like
it all comes through in the actions in the way
that you um you know, in the way that you
(33:49):
are deciding what you're going to do. You know, we um,
we're pretty um, you know, we trust people when it
comes to travel, like some of these things. We don't
get very policy focused on some of those things. Said,
so it really boils down to the actions and the
policies you're putting in the organization or the lack of policies.
If you have like a nine page you know, kind
(34:09):
of how how you travel and travel policy and all
this stuff, I would argue, you don't trust people. And
so you know, like there's some of those things, um
that I so, I think it's actions speak louder than words.
That's you know, a big, big part of it. And
you're you know, you're challenged on it um every single day.
And I think you see it in the decisions that
we make as an organization because it's much more than
(34:30):
just me. But um, you know, I think right now
probably the you can look at every company and you
can determine, I would argue how much they trust their
people based on how are they approaching their um you know,
kind of the next phase of return to office or not.
As we go through this in a really interesting time
and how does that play into the retention or attrition
(34:50):
they're seeing as well. I mean there's something fascinating to
that right now at this point in time, because I
think I think if we boil it all down, it
gets back to the trust and do you trust your
people to but you know, like do their work and
figure out where their best and most effective um or
are you or is it about you and about what
you need as a leader right to do you need
to see people around? And do you feel like you
(35:12):
need to see them in order to know that they're
doing work right for instance? Which um I just think
it is misguided quite frankly, Oh, I couldn't agree with
you more. And it just it's we're such a pivotal
point in our in our history right where I think
the prist work has changed forever and it does just
come down to trust, it really doesnt. But the employees
(35:32):
are demanding it now as well. I feel like my
boss doesn't trust me that I'm going to get my
work done from home. You know, people will go somewhere else.
That's I totally agree. I think that that's exactly I
think that's exactly why people are going elsewhere. Is is
because this, you know, the trust or lack of trust, um,
you know kind of gets highlighted in all of this, right,
(35:53):
So yeah, yeah, And of course I have to ask
you a CEOs on us, what do you enjoy listening to?
What's up playlist? And how do you enjoy your music?
And what do you listen to? Yeah, so, I mean
I listened to all genres. You won't be surprised. I'm
a huge, like hip hop fan from a long you know,
a long time ago, and obviously with Canadian roots, Drake
and The Weekend are some of the bigger ones that
(36:14):
you know, Um, I enjoy for sure. But I've recently
joined the Music Academy of the West, which is a
music academy here in Santa Barbara, and so I'm starting
to listen to more classical. So there's classical on so
it's radio I've been listening to and I've been trying
to understand and appreciate that, and I really, you know,
I'm kind of getting into it um now. But we
also have an amazing concert venue here at the Santa
Barbara Bowl. Um where we go see people and who
(36:39):
did we who did we just go to? Because we
go to so many UM, we just brought my mother
in law to someone, Uh Johnny. Oh, he's a Grammy
Award wind. I've never been to a blue grass count
concert before. UM. I can't remember his name it, but
it was amazing. Anyway, you know, we're trying to we're
(37:00):
trying to. We try to listen to all we can.
Um that's out there, and you know, UM, I just
love all the music and I think it tells the
story and also brings us back to, you know, points
in our life where we could reconnect with the emotions
of that moment. And so I often use music to
go back to certain times in my life and it
fills me with a certain emotion. So I think this
(37:21):
podcast has gone out of office. What's if you everything
to do when you're out of the office. Uh, definitely Uh,
physical things. So I work out on the beach every
morning that I'm in Santa Barbara, and then we run
in the mountains on weekends, and so um, when I'm
when I'm not working, I'm usually running or working out
(37:41):
being active. YEA, thank you so much for your time.
I really enjoyed our conversation. Me too, Thank you. That
was my conversation with Patrick ex fanse Ceo also on us.
I really enjoyed this Jatt and I especially liked his
ideas around trust and have you linked it to intense
no flexibility, which is so important and so relevant today.
(38:04):
Let me know what you think. My Twitter handle is.
This is Melica. Remember our of pofices on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
The Bloomberg Terminal and Bloomberg dot Com, so do check
out some of the other episodes. This episode of Out
of Office was produced by Yang Yang. I'm a Lika Kupol.
As always, thank you for listening.
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