March 31, 2022 • 47 mins
The pandemic has been rough on everyone, but women in particular have suffered as they try to juggle Zoom calls with their endless responsibilities at home. More than two million American women have left the labor force, and many struggle to return due to difficulties finding care for children or elderly parents. And it’s not just working moms: Younger women are also leaving employers who fail to provide flexibility, meaningful work and opportunities for advancement. Right now honest, real-world career advice is in short supply, and that’s where Cate Luzio comes in. Her professional growth network, Luminary, provides women in more than 30 countries an opportunity to grow, learn and meet others.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there, and welcome back to Out of Office. I'm
your host Malika Kapoor. This week Kate Lousio, founder and
CEO of Luminary, a professional development and collaboration hub created
(00:21):
by and four women. Kate started her career in finance,
where she rose up the ranks, but saw firsthand how
little investment was made to identify and develop female leaders.
So in eighteen, she wrote a business plan and launched Luminary,
which has grown to include more than two thousand individual
(00:41):
and nearly fifty corporate members, including blue chip names like Goldman, Sachs, Shapey, Morgan, Chase,
and MasterCard. Kate spoke to my colleague Matthew Boyle, a
senior management and workplace reporter. Here's their conversation. Well, Hi, Kate,
(01:05):
and uh and welcome to Out of Office. Hi great
to be here, Matt Yeah. So, so, Kate, you had
a very successful career in banking. You you worked around
the world for for JP, Morgan and HSBC, but then
in two thousand and eighteen you you left it all
to start Luminary, and not only that, you funded it
entirely by yourself. I mean, how did that come about?
(01:26):
How did you do that? And why then, While you know,
I could say it's a very long story, it's actually
not one of I had the really fortunate experience throughout
my career in banking. Although I spent a lot of
time being the only in the room, I had incredible
mentors and sponsors, and the majority of them being white males.
And one of those amazing white men in my that
(01:49):
I say was always in my corner from JP Morgan
had asked me a question as I was thinking about
what my next move was going to be within the
banking world, was well, what do I want to do
with my rear? And I had never spent that time
thinking about it. It was I'm a gen xer. We've
talked about this, uh, And it was what's the next milestone?
What's the next milestone? And he sort of was the
(02:11):
one that got it out of me. Where am I
finding sort of the excitement in the career. And yes,
I love being a banker and love managing teams. But
within that, I love developing talent and I love this
idea of looking at within the pipeline versus just going external.
I was a great example of always being poached externally.
But when I got to my roles. It was how
(02:33):
do we look at all this great talent inside and
provide a path for them? And so in that one conversation,
sort of two weeks later, I ripped the band aid
off and said, you know, not necessarily, I'm going to
take a break, but I'm going to think about doing
something else and utilize all these amazing skills that I've
built through my throughout my plus year career. And six
(02:55):
weeks later wrote a business plan for Luminary that I
didn't know that's what I wanted to do. I had
just been yet to another women's event, another women's group,
all very good, but I wasn't finding the value. And
although I was no longer necessarily a woman in the midst,
I was, you know, I we had a seat at
the table. I knew that wasn't the same experience for
(03:15):
all women, and not just in banking, and not just
in the firms that I worked for, And when I
started talking to other women and certainly outside of the
industry that I was in, it was a very similar experience.
And that business plan turned into wait a second, I've
saved a lot of money through my banking you know experience,
(03:36):
and the bonuses, and I want to really put my
money where my mouth is, and I don't want to
go out and pitch to investors because I want my
idea to really come to fruition in the way that
I want to create it, And so decided to sell fund.
And eight months later, our physical doors opened here in
New York City, uh in the Nomad neighborhood. And our
(03:58):
physical doors reopened in four months after the pandemic hit
us when we were in lockdown. And now we've created
both a physical and digital organization that's now in more
than three countries, so in three years, less than three years. Um,
it's been an incredible ride. But I credit so much
of that Matt to all of those years and that
(04:21):
experience in my developing my career in the banking world,
learning to run businesses, manage people, run and p n
l's And if I hadn't had that, there's no way
in my mind for me I would have been able
to launch this business. Yeah, you talked about how in
banking a lot of the opportunities were coming to externally,
(04:44):
and it's funny. I just wrote a story about how
internal job boards are sorely lacking and really need to
be sort of refurbished. And there's a lot of startups
using AI to better match candidates and opportunities inside the
company so you don't lose that. And of course losing
people is a very big topic right now. Um, where
do you think companies fall short in terms of talent development?
(05:07):
Do they not started early enough, do they not have
the right tools, or do they just think that people
will go through a progression. If you're in sales, you'll
always be in sales, and you know, you never think
about moving them over to like a supply chain job
or an h chart job. I mean, what's your take
on that. I think it's a couple of things. I
think it's apt. I think number one, hiring practices have
to change, right the old way of looking at how
(05:29):
we hire both internally and externally have to change. When
you think about again, it depends how senior the role is,
and and and and obviously the the the size of
the role. But if I have to go through twenty
interviews and I go through three with the competitor, my
hiring practices are not going to work, particularly now in
this in this world of the great re examination, of
(05:49):
the great resignation, and certainly not for the next generation
of the gen z ears and what comes behind that. Right,
there's a war for talent. But by the way, both
internally and externally. So I think complete revamping of hiring
practices and the process needs to be done in most
organizations and the old way is no longer actually going
(06:10):
to work. I think number two, we have to invest
in our talent much earlier we tend to when we hire,
and I can use the experience of the bank. You
really focus on that analysts and associate role. You give
them a lot of love and attention. There's a lot
of opportunities for for learning and development. Then they go
out into the next part of their career. In particular
(06:31):
for women and communities of color, underrepresented communities, it's sort
of like just just treading water, right, and it's finding
that sponsor, and it's finding that mentor, and then once
you get a little bit more senior, that love comes
back or you're about to walk out the door, and
now all of a sudden, you're top talent. So investing
earlier and more often in the pipeline and looking at
(06:51):
people's skill sets, right, women often and I just used
because of my gender she's just not quite ready yet
has been used way too often in most women's careers. Right.
Men are normally paid on potential or promoted on potential,
and women tend to be promoted or paid on performance.
And so I think again rethinking what that looks like.
(07:13):
Lateral opportunities are incredible, right, Moving people from one line
of business to the other, from back office to front
office and vice versa. Even into functional roles, you get
much more well rounded employees and they now know the
institutions better than if they stayed on that linear path.
And I think we've got to think outside of the
(07:35):
box um as we think about roles and whether there
are people that you want to promote, your thinking of
new new opportunities within the firm. I think talent sharing
has got to be uh sort of a new practice. Right.
We tend to be protective in our roles as hiring
managers and leaders, Right, I don't want to lose my
(07:56):
good talent, but I also don't want to become the
poaching ground for their lines of business. So how do
we think more broadly about talent share? You know, when
you think about the banks and in those analysts and
associate roles, those early stage they often go through a
rotational program. I did, right, So why not think more
broadly about those four people that are in the midst
(08:17):
of their careers or even at a more senior level
that you're trying to get exposure to. And the last
thing that I would say is just thinking more broadly
around people managers. Right in most organizations, the path to
promotion is I become a manager. Well, are we equipping
those managers with real tools and resources for them to
(08:40):
become people managers? Particularly now in what we're seeing and
what we've been seeing since the first day of the pandemic,
not everyone was equipped to manage people remotely? So what
were organizations doing to ensure those people managers had more
training and development? Are they trained on communication? Tough conversation?
(09:02):
Three sixty feedback? We kind of tend to overlook these
things when you're in the machine, and there's a lot
more that needs to be done for people managers. You
mentioned feedback, Kate. I know you've told me before that
feedback do you think is one of the most poorly
utilized skills in management? Both had to give it and
then how to receive it. It was funny. I just
(09:22):
spoke with Hubert Jolie last week for this podcast, and
he talked about how he was a horrible He was
horrible at receiving feedback when he was young because he
was a high performer, and anybody who told him he
wasn't doing something something right, he said, well, something's gonna
be wrong with you, not me. So what's your approach
to both giving feedback and receiving it? So I think
(09:44):
for both sides of the table, it's got to be
clear and concise and a plan for follow up. Right. So,
if I'm a manager and I'm giving feedback to my employees, again,
clear and concise, don't beat around the bush whether it's
good or bad. The other thing is there should always
be strengths and opportunities for development. Given you cannot tell
even your most talented employee that there's nothing for them
(10:07):
to work on. That then gives that problem where then
eventually then they don't work on anything and they think
that they're the best thing ever, and so they can't
receive any new feedback. Right, we're always learning, we should
always be lifelong learners, and so taking feedback is really important.
I think the other thing is for for both managers
and for employees, what is that follow up? Right? If
(10:31):
I have received feedback and it's X, Y Z on
things I need to work on, great, then let's get
a regular communication and cadence of communication back to that
manager around Okay, I've worked on this or I'm working
on this. Have you seen a difference if it's something more, Hey,
I asked for promotion, I asked for a raise. What
are those critical milestones? What do I need to meet those?
(10:52):
And on both sides they have to be documented. I've
worked for two very large global organizations. One was everything
was about three sixty feedback and the other was not.
And I will tell you that that not creates a
culture of exactly what you were talking about. It also
creates a culture where managers have the ultimate say. What
(11:15):
about stakeholder feedback? What about asking others that are in
that sort of your realm of influence for feedback. When
it becomes just one sided, it's not productive. And I
think there no matter what, a meritocracy is not created,
and there becomes a culture that is created of the
haves and the have nots and the favorites. And I
(11:36):
just don't think that's productive, and particularly now in the
remote world, and many companies are going to always have
a remote option, how do you make sure everyone has
a fair shot? Definitely, And that's that haves and have
not and that sort of feeling of you know, not
being included or even resentment that's leading just you know,
millions of people, including many women, to to leave traditional
(11:58):
corporate roles. And some are leaving the of course entirely
of course since the start of the pandemic. And you've
talked to two loads of them, Kate, I imagine what
are they telling you about why they're leaving and what
things might actually bring them back. So when we when
we talk to women that have made the decision, and
I think every situation is different, right, some of those
(12:20):
if their mother working mothers, caregivers, right, their situation and
their environment is very different than someone else that just
made it because there's no longer boundaries within their work uh,
their work day. What we're hearing now is I start
at seven am, I get on zooms, and I don't
finish until the end of the day, and then I
(12:41):
stay on my computer because I'm no longer in office.
There's no boundaries, um, and that has become a major
issue for most people. I think women in particular. I
think there's also still for women. I need to get exposure,
I need visibility, etcetera. So if I'm in a corporate
environ and I'm not getting any of that, I'm also
(13:02):
not getting flexibility. I'm being told to come back. I
don't have childcare or elder care solutions. What do I do?
So some of this is by necessity I've had to
leave or I've had to cut back my hours. And
then when we look at that population, we have to
remember on both sides of the table, the individual that's left.
The statistics is if I've left the workforce were more
(13:24):
than a year and tried to come back again traditional workforce,
my salary has decreased around so my earnings potential now
is back from when you know, again a few jobs ago. Uh.
And I think women in particular have to really think
about when they cut that cord, what's the next step.
(13:46):
I'm just leaving or I can't take it anymore. Um.
I think on the employer's side, getting people to come
back is going to be very difficult if they haven't
looked at what they're doing, not just flexibility, right. I
think that's one word here. A lot. There's a lot
more to flexibility than just being able to work from home.
I think you also see a population that of women saying,
(14:08):
you know, I've been doing this for a while, I
don't feel like my employer or my manager and my
boss is listening to me or what I need, and
I am going to cut the cord and I'm either
going to go to a new industry, go to do
something completely different, or I'm going to go and figure
it out. Then you have a whole other population that says,
(14:28):
I've had this business idea in mind for a while,
I never thought I could do this. I'm going to
cut the cord, and I'm going to do it. So
in each of those populations, and there are obviously many
more examples, we have to find a support system to
support those women in their journey and what's next. Small
business owners we know more than themselves funt and bootstrap,
(14:51):
So how are we supporting them? We know those women
that are sort of in transition, they can't lose access
to their networks, they can't lose access to introductctions and
door openers, and they have to continue to hone their
skills and then third that population that just says, I
don't know if I can do it with my boss anymore.
I'm just quitting. What are those longer term ramifications, not
(15:13):
just for that individual, but for the workforce in general.
I've said this since I left my career in banking.
Not everyone can leave and start their own business. We
need to keep women in the traditional workforce. But if
we're going to do that, it goes back to just
what we talked about before. We need to invest in
them earlier. We need to focus on training and leadership development,
(15:35):
we need to focus on people management, and we need
to think about them much more holistically than we have
in the past as just a cog in the wheel.
What are their situations? Um, how do we support those
situations so they don't walk out the door? Okay? And
I mean, and this is the reason we talk about
the group that went off to start their own businesses. UM,
(15:58):
I saw a very disconcerting autistic just this morning. Companies
founded solely by women in the U s rais just
of total venture capital funding last year. And I imagine
this is something that sparked you to create your fellowship program.
I think in where you bring women owned businesses, education
tools and coaching, and you've got partnerships with Unilever, Verizon
(16:21):
and some other corporates. Um, what's the latest on your
fellowship program? I mean, what's worked and what hasn't and
how difficult has it been to get them, the women
owned businesses the funding that they need. So first and foremost,
you know we've gotten as you mentioned, we've got incredible
partners that are not only putting money behind these fellowships,
(16:41):
they're putting education and access to resources that they're providing
small businesses. But not everybody knows what they do. Right,
if you take UBS or a horizon in our Unilever,
how are we helping them? I think what's come out
of this first year and now we're in the second
year with about a thousand more women own businesses and
job seekers as well. UH, is that community resources, door winners,
(17:07):
as well as fuel to spend are equally as important
as funding and capital. And I think that the funding
and capital conversation really has to be um carved off
that two of women owned businesses that receive venture capital
must grow, and just like everything else in this world,
we have to get to parity. However, not every business
(17:31):
needs to nor should they go after external or particularly
venture capital funding. There's a very small percentage of companies,
whether they're run by a man or women, that need
or should go after venture capital. Number two, you better
know what you're gonna do with that money and what
that means, because now you've just got on a bicycle
or you're continuing to raise money. The second is, as
(17:54):
I mentioned earlier, more than seventy percent of women on
businesses sell, founder, bootstrap the business. Some of that's a necessity.
Some of that's out of I want control, I want
to own this, I want to create a legacy. How
do you then provide financial instruments to help them build
their business, whether that's through banks, whether that's through grants,
whether that's through crowdfunding and other other mechanisms. So giving
(18:17):
our fellows access to all of these tools and the
education around them so that they can make informed decisions
is first and foremost. Every time you take money, we
know this, you buy a car, you buy a house,
there is a string attached. If you need money to run, operate, growth,
scale your business, you better understand what those strings are
(18:39):
and the different again mechanisms around what those what strings
to pull around how you build up business um you
know business boot camps, we teach, We teach um the act,
how to the power of capital and what that means
to your company. Fuel to spend, I would argue, is
even a bigger issue for women known businesses that than
access to capital. You have to get customers to buy
(19:02):
your products and services. Okay, Chicken and the Egg. You
may not have thousands of dollars a month to spend
on paid social ads or marketing or a CMO. So
how do you think strategically about customer acquisition, strategic selling, partnerships, collaboration,
and a lot of what we teach is around again,
fuel to spend, and then combining that with here's a
(19:25):
community that's supporting. Here are you know, marketplaces you can leverage,
Here are resources and other types of education, social media, marketing,
operating plans. We forget because we're in these giant companies.
You yourself at Bloomberg, I, JP, Morgan, HSBC, Bank of America,
you forget the infrastructure that is behind you to run
(19:49):
just your job. So from a business owner, it's really
providing them access to all of these tools and resources,
and then we leverage our partners and those fellows to
bring in specialized subject matter ex to teach as well.
(20:10):
It's been interesting how the advice that people have been
seeking has has evolved during the pandemic, of course, And yeah,
I think you told me early on, you know, the
early months of the pandemic, it was all about visibility.
You know, does my boss know what the heck I'm
doing when now that we're all remote. And then it
shifted more into mental health and wellness as burnout became
(20:31):
a big problem. And now as we move into the
third year of the pandemic, kit what are women asking
about now? I think a big one And and we
can break this out into a couple of things as negotiation.
So negotiation we tend to think of it in I'm
negotiating for my next job or my next salary. There's
so much more within the world of negotiation. It's negotiating
(20:52):
for flexibility depending on your situation. It's negotiating if you
need to actually return to an office. It's negociation around childcare.
What are companies doing around subsidized childcare and what are
those plans? So there's a big request from us from
a lot of our corporate members and the women that
(21:13):
are in the traditional workforce asking us for more tips
and how to negotiate. I think the other thing it
goes back to the long lasting problem of visibility and exposure.
You know, we just as women, as our gender and
underrepresented community is very similar, just don't have the exposure
and the visibilities that are our white male counterparts have.
(21:36):
And that's that's historical, that's societal that's built over years
and years. That's not just a new problem. And but
we can't get anywhere unless we start working in conjunction
with men around building up that visibility and exposure. And
that's why, as you know, met that we have always
wanted men, We've welcomed men, We work with men because
(21:57):
we have to do this together. UM. And I think
the other thing that I'm I don't know if it's
surprising to me or maybe because I've been doing this
so long and I have a long career, is still confidence, right,
Confidence to go in and negotiate, confidence to manage a team,
confidence to ask for the next role. So this idea
(22:17):
of um really promotion and advocating for yourself versus always
advocating for others. And then the last thing is still
virtual networking and relationship building. You would think we're, you know,
two well into two years into this, that it would
be sort of old hat for most people, but it's not. Uh,
it is still how do I connect in a virtual world,
(22:39):
whether that's my boss, a co worker, a stakeholder, someone
that's on my team. Um, this idea of virtual networking
seems maybe easy for many of us or now we've
gotten used to the zoom screens, but it's still not
necessarily as effective for everyone. So how do you continue
to utilize virtual networking building relationships? And by the way,
(23:02):
news splash, it's never going away because our work has
changed dramatically. No one will ever go into an office
five days a week, I don't think ever again. So
get used to the zoom screens because you're going to
be using it for building your own brand, your relationships,
your companies. That's the way of the future. Yeah, So
talk to me about how should women promote themselves in
(23:25):
a more virtual environment. How are the tactics different from
being face to face with the boss and and with colleagues.
So I think a couple of kind of unique ways
is when you're in a meeting and internally, right, you
may not. I mean again, unless you're in a very
small company. I mean I used to working at the
companies that I did. You always joined meetings and didn't.
He's like, oh, I never met you in person. I've
(23:47):
seen your name on email. Take the time, even in
the chat where a private d M within the chat,
to introduce yourself. What you do, you know, what your
role is, how long you've been in the company. It's
a great easy way to sort of get to know someone.
The other thing is take advantage of more one on
ones than less with your boss. In the old days,
I'm using air quotes. You know, you'd have to go
(24:07):
into your boss's office. Maybe it would be a half
an hour. An hour. Now you could say, hey, Matt,
I need you for five minutes. I just want to
give you an update on what I've been working on.
Or I need you for five minutes because I want
to ask your opinion on something, or I need five
minutes because I really have a great idea and a
solution to a problem the team has been facing. Great
snack able, digestible moments that you could have with your boss. Um.
(24:30):
And the other thing is follow up, follow up, follow up, right,
whether you're in a virtual world or in person world.
In order to promote authentically, you need to actually make
sure your boss, your manager is aware of what you're doing.
So whether that's a bi weekly Hey, here are a
couple of things I've worked on. Here are my accomplishments.
(24:50):
It's not bragging if it's based on fact, right, And
other people are promoting themselves, why shouldn't you. Uh. And
the last thing that I would say is, every time
you walk into a meeting, don't let it be the
first thing where you're automatically starting to promote someone else.
Think about how you can talk about and advocate for
yourself in addition to others. Um And I just don't
(25:13):
see that happening. I mean, I'm amazed. We work with
so many corporate members as well as women in the
traditional workforce ereluminary and when we host these sessions, in
these workshops, what it's not just junior women, it is
all the way up to this senior ranks c h
r os, chief people officers, chief revenue officer saying I'm
(25:34):
not that great at, you know, promoting myself, for advocating
for myself. Will you better? Because you know, the next
big role that comes around or that next big opportunity
your boss. And by the way, in a matrix world,
in an organization, everyone needs to know what you're doing,
so that we're spending a lot of time I think
because of the virtual world, UM, and I'm not seeing
(25:57):
someone every day in an office on UM on that
promotion and self advocacy. When you don't see people every
day in office. I mean, there's research out there that
says that particularly UM, people of color prefer remote work
in many ways because they're not subject the daily microaggressions
that they experienced in traditional office life. Have you spoken
(26:18):
to women, particularly minority women, who faced that is? Is that?
Is that a thing? That is a huge thing? UM.
I remember last February February our digital uh being a
Black Woman in Corporate America was part of our programming
for Black History Month. Will do that again starting the
first week of February, the eye opening remarks. I think
(26:40):
that both from a person of color that we was
sitting in there in that digital room, to anyone else
that had never been in those shoes, around code switching,
around the microaggressions or on everything that they faced, that
you wouldn't you wouldn't have been able to recognize. So
I think it is a huge issue I think I've
seen which is I think, I think incredibly motivating inspiring
(27:04):
over this past year is the amount of movement in
the corporate world of new opportunities for people of color.
And you're seeing that not only in heads of D
E and I, but much bigger roles and running businesses,
board roles, but as a as an organization that runs
(27:25):
a both the physical community and now a global community
and more than thirty countries, more than our members MATT
or women of color, So we get the opportunity every
day to ask them those questions. And I think companies, small,
medium in large have to provide brave spaces for those
conversations to be had and not in an echo chamber.
(27:49):
Right Historically, what has tended to happen is, and this
happens in every organization, the Women's Network, the Black Network,
the Pride Network, and so you're all saying the same
thing because yes, you have an affinity, you you you're
part of that group for a reason. Now we've really
got a force almost to an extent ally ship and
bringing other representation, other gender into those conversations so that
(28:14):
real change can happen. And I think that is what
leaders should start be holding accountable for, is creating these rooms,
these tables, these spaces for real conversation to happen, so
that real change can happen. Yeah. I mean, we've talked
a lot about remote work um in this conversation, Kate,
But I mean I think for a majority of workers,
(28:36):
it's not going to be fully remote or fully in
the office, will be some type of hybrid arrangement. So
when you do return to the office, and I know
a lot of those returns have been delayed first by
Delta and now by O Macron. But let's say you're
in the office part time, like a lot of people
might be in the coming months. How do you maximize
that time and what's worked for you individually, and what
(28:57):
do you think will work you know, for most women.
So I think you know, and we've seen some of
our our corporate partners and members really thinking through number one.
You don't have to set a policy in place that's
gonna last forever. Right, there's a lot of what we
call a b testing or trial and arrogant that can happen.
Let's see what happens in a quarter, let's see what
(29:18):
works and what doesn't and actually get feedback from our employees.
I think some of the things that we've seen working
is instead of having you come in Tuesday and I
come in Wednesday, and someone comes in Thursday, is really
packing in those team meetings on the days when people
are can come in. So if I'm saying Tuesday, Wednesdays
are days in the office, then really pack those team
(29:41):
meetings in so you're having that ideation and that collaboration
in an office environment. Obviously there will likely be people
that join remotely. Also giving those remote people the opportunity
to speak first when you're in and when you're in
an office, you're sitting around a conference room. Often times
whoever sitting and this happened well before remote work, right,
(30:03):
we sit on WebEx is and tell presents and the
people on the screen we're always the last to speak.
So give those individuals the first opportunity to speak when
there is a question posed to the audience or the
who's ever sitting in the meeting asked the people that
are on that screen to speak first, or if they
have comments first. Little things like that can go a
long way at making sure all voices are recognized. And
(30:27):
the other thing is, as I said, if you could
get people, even if it's one day a week, that
everyone's in that office at the same time. Is ensure
you're having a team meeting. Ensure you as a manager
are doing as many one on ones as you possibly
can in person. Obviously health and safeties first and foremost,
but that in person connection can go a long way.
(30:49):
And making sure that that next one on one, even
if it's the five minute zoom or phone call. We
have to remember phones. I think you and I talked
about this when we first had a converse. Phones still exist.
Doesn't always have to be a zoom, So pick up
the phone and just check in on someone. We do
it with our friends. Why can't we do that with
our employees. It's so funny. A PR person asked me
(31:13):
the other day. You know, well, I know you've get
so many emails. How do I get your attention? I've said,
why don't you pick up the phone and call me?
You know? Um, So the I mean the intricacies of
hybrid work and and how this new frontier we're facing,
I mean, it's really putting a lot of pressure on
on HR officers. I know you talked to a lot
of chief HR officers, many of them women, and it's
(31:35):
clear that this position is under unprecedented stress from the pandemic.
You know, they don't just have to think about training
and development and hiring. They have to think about HVAC
systems and office ventilation and ever changing COVID policies and
how do we deal with that remote employee who wants
to move to you know, bolder and we don't have
an office there. Um. I mean, do you think that
(31:57):
some women in these roles, those who really rise to
the occasion and become you know, sort of true strategic
partners with the CEOs and the C suite, do you
think some of them could rise to become CEO as themselves,
Because I think both of us know the HR function
is not a typical path to the CEO position, But
but why not? Well, I absolutely do. First of all,
(32:19):
I think the HR, the c h r O, even
the chief Chief People Officer role has changed dramatically in
the past uh in the past two years, and um,
I mean we're seeing it. We're seeing the former c
h r O of UNI Labor now becoming the CEO
of Chanel Uh. That's a great example. She spent thirty
(32:40):
years at Unilever in various for the for the most part,
HR roles, but she really understood the intricacy of the organization.
She worked with lines of business, she worked with d
E and I, she'll worked with you know, the functions,
so she understand and obviously reporting directly to the CEO.
You learned so much, UM. I think that that's actually
a unique opportunity that's coming out of the pandemic. The
(33:03):
c h r O role, whatever you want to call it,
has become so important. It can no longer report into operations.
It should report directly into the CEO. And I would
argue even the heads of D E and I and
some organizations should no longer report into the c h
r O. They should be reporting directly into the CEO.
That broad skills that a c h r O role
(33:25):
and not for everyone. I think though in this this
this experience, like you mentioned operations, right, the c h
r O was no longer it was no longer just
the CEO and and facilities. The c h r OH
is part of that UM figuring out what it looks
like for remote office and hybrid figuring out process no
longer just hiring. These are so under rate, underestimated UH
(33:50):
skills that I think every CEO has to have UM.
And like I said, we're seeing it with the Unilever,
former Unileverse c h R O moving into the c
the Chanel CEO role. I think that's a signal to
the market to two very different industries. I mean, yes,
there's still CpG channel's luxury goods as well, but I
think this is actually a really unique opportunity for chief
(34:13):
people officers and c h r o s to really
stop up and see. Let me take that on. And
I think about Mary Barrett at GM also worked in
HR for some time, so I bring her up because
today there are some news that my former colleague at
at a Fortune magazine, Patty Sellers, has created this new
nonprofit group called Journey which which is looking to address
(34:33):
the pyramid effect where the share of women's shrinks as
they rise up the corporate ranks, something you're very familiar with.
But this new group is going to connect twenty five
fellows with twenty five influential female executives, including Mary of
General Motors. What do you make of these efforts? I
think You've told me earlier that you're not a huge
fan of of formalized mentorship programs. Do you do you think?
(34:56):
You know? Do you think this will work? I listen.
I think when you have the involvement of people like
a Mary Barrow right, who gets it. I think she's
there for a reason, and whoever she mentors, she's going
to make it work. I think it's a little bit
harder when there are formal mentoring programs within an organization,
(35:17):
because you really need to understand what's the win win
for both sides. You also need to understand that mentoring
is very much a chemistry driven relationship, and it's a
true relationship. Mentees need to go into these situations thinking
it's not just about them and they've been assigned a
mentor and that they're just going to take take take um.
(35:40):
It is a two way street. It is a reciprocal relationship.
So if you can create mentoring programs with rules and
guard rails around that and everyone agrees to it, terrific.
I think also the mentor word gets thrown around a lot.
I think we have forgotten there also the concept of
(36:01):
peer mentorship and reverse mentorship. A lot of mentorship happens
organically if you just put the right people in a room. UM.
And some of that organically happens between two individuals. None
of my mentors in my career, with the exception of one, UM,
we're in a formalized mentoring program. Uh. It was I created,
(36:22):
we created relationships, UM, and there was a give and take.
And I think that's why those mentors that I no
longer in banking, even though they're all still in banking,
I still consider them mentors and I still have relationships
with them because they can be lifelong. UM. In a
situation like this without knowing the full background, I think
(36:43):
you've got twenty five incredible leaders that are saying we
need to I personally need to do more, and they
understand that it could be game changing for that mentee. UM. Equally,
the mentee needs that you know, rules and regulations and
roles and responsibilities and guard rails around what this can
look like. But really, you know, I'm a big believer
(37:05):
in reciprocity and the idea that all relationships, mentors, sponsorship, etcetera.
They are a two way street and you get out
of them what you put into them. So if you're
there for the wrong reasons. I just don't think it works.
(37:27):
What's the best piece of advice you ever you've ever
received from a mentor, from a manager, from from your mom,
doesn't matter. I'd like to know the best piece of
advice you ever got and who gave it to you.
You know, I I have had such good advice from
you know, an incredible mentors and sponsors. I think the
(37:49):
biggest thing that that I go back to time and
time again is don't secondly guess yourself. Um, if you're prepared,
if you know you're you know, if you know what
you're talking about, if you've got it down pat, don't
second guess yourself. And oftentimes I do think women, um,
and I'm just speaking on behalf of myself as a gender. Uh,
we do second guess ourselves. And so this idea goes
(38:12):
back to the confidence building, the self promotion, the self advocacy.
Don't second guess yourself. And I've heard that, you know
from many many of my mentors that have observed me
over years and years as I've built my career. Um.
And by the way, not every piece of advice your
mentor or your sponsors gives you is going to be
(38:35):
advice that you're going to take, but that you really
have to be opening to listen and open to change.
So that second guessing thing, as is I think is
for me has been a big piece as a business
owner as well. Right, that's carrying well into my entrepreneurial journey. Yeah,
well it's bonus ses In Kaden, And you mentioned negotiation earlier.
(38:55):
How important negotiation is? I think you made a good
point that it's not just about getting your next job
or or a pay raise. It could be about flexible
work or making sure you have time off to to
care for a child or you know, or or an
elder care situation. How is how is negotiating for those
types of things though, different from negotiating just a hard,
(39:17):
straight ahead This is the bonus I want and and
you know this is what I did last year. I mean,
how do those negotiating tactics differ or maybe how are
they the same? Yeah? You know what I think, being
black and white, it's the same. Right, It's the same
as if you are a child and you're negotiating with
your parents about going somewhere, or you're wanting to spend
(39:38):
time with someone or asking for something. Um In particular
for a certain occasion you're negotiating, right, um, don't manipulate
and really negotiate. Build your business case, UH, and your
reasons why not that you need something? Why you deserve it? Right?
We often get confused between I need this because I
(40:01):
need the next big thing, I need to buy a house,
I need to get no, no, no. Build the business
case around why you deserve that. M own that ask
um and put the put the I would call it
ammunition behind that. Ask whether that's a raise? You better
know your number? What is your number? Um? And what
is the number you can get comfortable with if it's
(40:22):
not ultimately the number that you want? UM, And that's
what you're in you know, internally negotiating with your boss,
if you're negotiating for a new role, if you're negotiating
for for raising money, right, what's your drop dead number?
I think if you're negotiating for other benefits around flexibility
and return to the office and and work from home.
And I want to live in Boulder, but my job
is technically in New York. Build your business case around
(40:47):
why it will work and why it will benefit not
only you but your boss or your manager, and that organization.
It's really hard to say no when you've built those
business cases. And that's how I think of everything, whether
I'm talking to in my former life, my manager, clients,
even people um that worked for me all the way
(41:08):
to negotiating now with our corporate members and fellows and
thinking about everything else we're doing as a small business. Okay,
And I know you do a lot of round tables
with big companies, um, Kate. Are the themes of those
changing much as as we get into two? I know
some of them are constant, some of what we call
evergreen topics, but um, what new topics are maybe creeping
(41:33):
up or coming more to the forefront as you counsel
them these days, I think the big thing that keeps
coming up. And we're hosting a round table uh this
week on it is around accelerated hiring. Uh an accelerated him? Yeah,
so on both sides. So how do I get someone
a candidate in the seat faster? Right? Kind of what
(41:53):
I mentioned earlier in the show. You know it used
to take ten, twelve, twenty interviews to bring in that candidate.
Let's actually shrink that down as we look at our
hiring practices, does it really need. Do you really need
tend people to interview them? Could it be the three
most important stakeholders and make a decision. But we're tending
to hear from big companies in particular, is I have
these HR practices that are very old and by the
(42:16):
time I've gotten to the offer stage, that person has
already accepted another offer because someone went faster, right, they
had less of a process, it was less cumbersome, So
accelerated hiring on the employeer side, and then on the
employee side, is I want this job. This is what
it's going to take for you to hire me. So
(42:38):
we hear a lot that the control now is in
the job seekers hands. Yes and no. I still know
there are a lot of job seekers out there, um,
but thinking about what's important to you. So one of
the biggest things that we're hearing is the questions that
are being asked in the interview process. Now, in the
old days, it used to be the employer asks and
sort of by being n do you have any questions
(43:01):
for me? Not? Uh, Now it's yes, here is my
list of questions. Here's what I want out of this role.
Are you offering X? So these job seekers are coming
very prepared and not only camp but what is your culture, like,
what is your office environment? How are you thinking about
hybrid and not accepting roles when all those boxes aren't checked.
(43:24):
So this accelerated hiring um is on both sides and
I think goes back to again historical hiring processes for
many companies have to change. They just have to How
you mentioned bringing questions the interviewee, the job seeker coming
or armed with questions, and as a reporter, I would
(43:45):
certainly agree with that. You always want to do that,
but can that How do you make sure you you're
asking the smart questions? But what maybe without coming off
as a bit too I don't know, aggressive or demanding
too much. I know, as you say, there is more
power in the job seekers ends right now. Um, and
not just for white collar jobs, I think for blue
collar jobs as well. Um, But you know, any tips
(44:07):
in terms of you know how many you know? How
far should you go with with those questions? Certainly you
want to know about like you know a hybrid work
plan and you know time off and things like that,
But um, you know what would you cancel in terms
of how far to push those questions as a job
seeker you know, I think the word demanding is probably
not the right word because that when one when either
(44:32):
party demands, I don't think it's a recipe for a
good partnership and good working relationship in the future. I
think there has to be a give and take. If
you're the job seeker again, numbers wise, what are you
willing to take? Right now? It's becoming even more transparent
in some situations in some states right around salary ranges.
So you should know going in, what's your number? Um?
(44:54):
When you're asking about you know, the different flexibility options, benefits,
amenities to the job. You know, I've counseled my nephew
on this. You know, are they providing are they paying
for internet since you're going to be work from home?
Are they paying for your phone? Things like that, Things
like we often think of total comp as in for
many industries, my salary and my bonus. If there's a
(45:15):
bonus component, okay, what does that mean? Ask those questions?
How what does my health care look like? What's included
in my insurance? Um? I've heard a lot pet care
is pet included? Right? Um? So ask those questions. Being
an informed job seeker as well, don't just wait for
that offer letter. Um, and I think again, if this
(45:37):
is a company that you really think, you better know
a lot about them, You better know about the management,
You better do your due diligence on the culture. Ask around,
look on different sites, because it's not just about the job,
and it's not just about the compensation. It's about the culture.
And I think over the last two years, you know,
talking about what companies are talking to us about, is
(45:58):
this shift in understanding culture? Anecdotally giving you one example
from a small business side, it's not just the large businesses.
We were recently hiring a programming associate and the majority
of her questions when I finally interviewed her throughout the
rest of my team was around representation, not just representation
(46:18):
on the staff, but representation within the community, representation on
the with the within the programming, and if we were
really practicing what we were preaching as an organization. And
I thought that was not only bold, but they were
the right questions to ask the CEO and the founder. So, Um,
you never know. I think it's got to be a
great working relationship. You don't want to work for someone
(46:41):
that you're not going to with your respect and employer,
doesn't I want to hire someone that that's going to
lead within the first you know, six months to a year,
So there's gotta be a win win, don't Yeah, I
think I mean things like representation, Kate. I don't think either.
That word wouldn't have crossed our minds, you know, in
our first job interview or anyone really, but it's great
that they're there for being asked. Now, Okay, thank you
(47:02):
so much for your time today with us here and
out of office. I really enjoyed the conversation. Likewise, thanks
for having me. That was my colleague Matt Boyle and
conversation with Kate Louisier, the founder and CEO of Luminary.
What an incredible woman and incredible entrepreneur. I love that
(47:24):
chat and I hope you did too. This podcast was
produced by Magnus Hendrickson. I'm Aleica could pour stay well
and as always, thank you for listening.
Hi there, and welcome back to Out of Office. I'm
your host Malika Kapoor. This week Kate Lousio, founder and
CEO of Luminary, a professional development and collaboration hub created
(00:21):
by and four women. Kate started her career in finance,
where she rose up the ranks, but saw firsthand how
little investment was made to identify and develop female leaders.
So in eighteen, she wrote a business plan and launched Luminary,
which has grown to include more than two thousand individual
(00:41):
and nearly fifty corporate members, including blue chip names like Goldman, Sachs, Shapey, Morgan, Chase,
and MasterCard. Kate spoke to my colleague Matthew Boyle, a
senior management and workplace reporter. Here's their conversation. Well, Hi, Kate,
(01:05):
and uh and welcome to Out of Office. Hi great
to be here, Matt Yeah. So, so, Kate, you had
a very successful career in banking. You you worked around
the world for for JP, Morgan and HSBC, but then
in two thousand and eighteen you you left it all
to start Luminary, and not only that, you funded it
entirely by yourself. I mean, how did that come about?
(01:26):
How did you do that? And why then, While you know,
I could say it's a very long story, it's actually
not one of I had the really fortunate experience throughout
my career in banking. Although I spent a lot of
time being the only in the room, I had incredible
mentors and sponsors, and the majority of them being white males.
And one of those amazing white men in my that
(01:49):
I say was always in my corner from JP Morgan
had asked me a question as I was thinking about
what my next move was going to be within the
banking world, was well, what do I want to do
with my rear? And I had never spent that time
thinking about it. It was I'm a gen xer. We've
talked about this, uh, And it was what's the next milestone?
What's the next milestone? And he sort of was the
(02:11):
one that got it out of me. Where am I
finding sort of the excitement in the career. And yes,
I love being a banker and love managing teams. But
within that, I love developing talent and I love this
idea of looking at within the pipeline versus just going external.
I was a great example of always being poached externally.
But when I got to my roles. It was how
(02:33):
do we look at all this great talent inside and
provide a path for them? And so in that one conversation,
sort of two weeks later, I ripped the band aid
off and said, you know, not necessarily, I'm going to
take a break, but I'm going to think about doing
something else and utilize all these amazing skills that I've
built through my throughout my plus year career. And six
(02:55):
weeks later wrote a business plan for Luminary that I
didn't know that's what I wanted to do. I had
just been yet to another women's event, another women's group,
all very good, but I wasn't finding the value. And
although I was no longer necessarily a woman in the midst,
I was, you know, I we had a seat at
the table. I knew that wasn't the same experience for
(03:15):
all women, and not just in banking, and not just
in the firms that I worked for, And when I
started talking to other women and certainly outside of the
industry that I was in, it was a very similar experience.
And that business plan turned into wait a second, I've
saved a lot of money through my banking you know experience,
(03:36):
and the bonuses, and I want to really put my
money where my mouth is, and I don't want to
go out and pitch to investors because I want my
idea to really come to fruition in the way that
I want to create it, And so decided to sell fund.
And eight months later, our physical doors opened here in
New York City, uh in the Nomad neighborhood. And our
(03:58):
physical doors reopened in four months after the pandemic hit
us when we were in lockdown. And now we've created
both a physical and digital organization that's now in more
than three countries, so in three years, less than three years. Um,
it's been an incredible ride. But I credit so much
of that Matt to all of those years and that
(04:21):
experience in my developing my career in the banking world,
learning to run businesses, manage people, run and p n
l's And if I hadn't had that, there's no way
in my mind for me I would have been able
to launch this business. Yeah, you talked about how in
banking a lot of the opportunities were coming to externally,
(04:44):
and it's funny. I just wrote a story about how
internal job boards are sorely lacking and really need to
be sort of refurbished. And there's a lot of startups
using AI to better match candidates and opportunities inside the
company so you don't lose that. And of course losing
people is a very big topic right now. Um, where
do you think companies fall short in terms of talent development?
(05:07):
Do they not started early enough, do they not have
the right tools, or do they just think that people
will go through a progression. If you're in sales, you'll
always be in sales, and you know, you never think
about moving them over to like a supply chain job
or an h chart job. I mean, what's your take
on that. I think it's a couple of things. I
think it's apt. I think number one, hiring practices have
to change, right the old way of looking at how
(05:29):
we hire both internally and externally have to change. When
you think about again, it depends how senior the role is,
and and and and obviously the the the size of
the role. But if I have to go through twenty
interviews and I go through three with the competitor, my
hiring practices are not going to work, particularly now in
this in this world of the great re examination, of
(05:49):
the great resignation, and certainly not for the next generation
of the gen z ears and what comes behind that. Right,
there's a war for talent. But by the way, both
internally and externally. So I think complete revamping of hiring
practices and the process needs to be done in most
organizations and the old way is no longer actually going
(06:10):
to work. I think number two, we have to invest
in our talent much earlier we tend to when we hire,
and I can use the experience of the bank. You
really focus on that analysts and associate role. You give
them a lot of love and attention. There's a lot
of opportunities for for learning and development. Then they go
out into the next part of their career. In particular
(06:31):
for women and communities of color, underrepresented communities, it's sort
of like just just treading water, right, and it's finding
that sponsor, and it's finding that mentor, and then once
you get a little bit more senior, that love comes
back or you're about to walk out the door, and
now all of a sudden, you're top talent. So investing
earlier and more often in the pipeline and looking at
(06:51):
people's skill sets, right, women often and I just used
because of my gender she's just not quite ready yet
has been used way too often in most women's careers. Right.
Men are normally paid on potential or promoted on potential,
and women tend to be promoted or paid on performance.
And so I think again rethinking what that looks like.
(07:13):
Lateral opportunities are incredible, right, Moving people from one line
of business to the other, from back office to front
office and vice versa. Even into functional roles, you get
much more well rounded employees and they now know the
institutions better than if they stayed on that linear path.
And I think we've got to think outside of the
(07:35):
box um as we think about roles and whether there
are people that you want to promote, your thinking of
new new opportunities within the firm. I think talent sharing
has got to be uh sort of a new practice. Right.
We tend to be protective in our roles as hiring
managers and leaders, Right, I don't want to lose my
(07:56):
good talent, but I also don't want to become the
poaching ground for their lines of business. So how do
we think more broadly about talent share? You know, when
you think about the banks and in those analysts and
associate roles, those early stage they often go through a
rotational program. I did, right, So why not think more
broadly about those four people that are in the midst
(08:17):
of their careers or even at a more senior level
that you're trying to get exposure to. And the last
thing that I would say is just thinking more broadly
around people managers. Right in most organizations, the path to
promotion is I become a manager. Well, are we equipping
those managers with real tools and resources for them to
(08:40):
become people managers? Particularly now in what we're seeing and
what we've been seeing since the first day of the pandemic,
not everyone was equipped to manage people remotely? So what
were organizations doing to ensure those people managers had more
training and development? Are they trained on communication? Tough conversation?
(09:02):
Three sixty feedback? We kind of tend to overlook these
things when you're in the machine, and there's a lot
more that needs to be done for people managers. You
mentioned feedback, Kate. I know you've told me before that
feedback do you think is one of the most poorly
utilized skills in management? Both had to give it and
then how to receive it. It was funny. I just
(09:22):
spoke with Hubert Jolie last week for this podcast, and
he talked about how he was a horrible He was
horrible at receiving feedback when he was young because he
was a high performer, and anybody who told him he
wasn't doing something something right, he said, well, something's gonna
be wrong with you, not me. So what's your approach
to both giving feedback and receiving it? So I think
(09:44):
for both sides of the table, it's got to be
clear and concise and a plan for follow up. Right. So,
if I'm a manager and I'm giving feedback to my employees, again,
clear and concise, don't beat around the bush whether it's
good or bad. The other thing is there should always
be strengths and opportunities for development. Given you cannot tell
even your most talented employee that there's nothing for them
(10:07):
to work on. That then gives that problem where then
eventually then they don't work on anything and they think
that they're the best thing ever, and so they can't
receive any new feedback. Right, we're always learning, we should
always be lifelong learners, and so taking feedback is really important.
I think the other thing is for for both managers
and for employees, what is that follow up? Right? If
(10:31):
I have received feedback and it's X, Y Z on
things I need to work on, great, then let's get
a regular communication and cadence of communication back to that
manager around Okay, I've worked on this or I'm working
on this. Have you seen a difference if it's something more, Hey,
I asked for promotion, I asked for a raise. What
are those critical milestones? What do I need to meet those?
(10:52):
And on both sides they have to be documented. I've
worked for two very large global organizations. One was everything
was about three sixty feedback and the other was not.
And I will tell you that that not creates a
culture of exactly what you were talking about. It also
creates a culture where managers have the ultimate say. What
(11:15):
about stakeholder feedback? What about asking others that are in
that sort of your realm of influence for feedback. When
it becomes just one sided, it's not productive. And I
think there no matter what, a meritocracy is not created,
and there becomes a culture that is created of the
haves and the have nots and the favorites. And I
(11:36):
just don't think that's productive, and particularly now in the
remote world, and many companies are going to always have
a remote option, how do you make sure everyone has
a fair shot? Definitely, And that's that haves and have
not and that sort of feeling of you know, not
being included or even resentment that's leading just you know,
millions of people, including many women, to to leave traditional
(11:58):
corporate roles. And some are leaving the of course entirely
of course since the start of the pandemic. And you've
talked to two loads of them, Kate, I imagine what
are they telling you about why they're leaving and what
things might actually bring them back. So when we when
we talk to women that have made the decision, and
I think every situation is different, right, some of those
(12:20):
if their mother working mothers, caregivers, right, their situation and
their environment is very different than someone else that just
made it because there's no longer boundaries within their work uh,
their work day. What we're hearing now is I start
at seven am, I get on zooms, and I don't
finish until the end of the day, and then I
(12:41):
stay on my computer because I'm no longer in office.
There's no boundaries, um, and that has become a major
issue for most people. I think women in particular. I
think there's also still for women. I need to get exposure,
I need visibility, etcetera. So if I'm in a corporate
environ and I'm not getting any of that, I'm also
(13:02):
not getting flexibility. I'm being told to come back. I
don't have childcare or elder care solutions. What do I do?
So some of this is by necessity I've had to
leave or I've had to cut back my hours. And
then when we look at that population, we have to
remember on both sides of the table, the individual that's left.
The statistics is if I've left the workforce were more
(13:24):
than a year and tried to come back again traditional workforce,
my salary has decreased around so my earnings potential now
is back from when you know, again a few jobs ago. Uh.
And I think women in particular have to really think
about when they cut that cord, what's the next step.
(13:46):
I'm just leaving or I can't take it anymore. Um.
I think on the employer's side, getting people to come
back is going to be very difficult if they haven't
looked at what they're doing, not just flexibility, right. I
think that's one word here. A lot. There's a lot
more to flexibility than just being able to work from home.
I think you also see a population that of women saying,
(14:08):
you know, I've been doing this for a while, I
don't feel like my employer or my manager and my
boss is listening to me or what I need, and
I am going to cut the cord and I'm either
going to go to a new industry, go to do
something completely different, or I'm going to go and figure
it out. Then you have a whole other population that says,
(14:28):
I've had this business idea in mind for a while,
I never thought I could do this. I'm going to
cut the cord, and I'm going to do it. So
in each of those populations, and there are obviously many
more examples, we have to find a support system to
support those women in their journey and what's next. Small
business owners we know more than themselves funt and bootstrap,
(14:51):
So how are we supporting them? We know those women
that are sort of in transition, they can't lose access
to their networks, they can't lose access to introductctions and
door openers, and they have to continue to hone their
skills and then third that population that just says, I
don't know if I can do it with my boss anymore.
I'm just quitting. What are those longer term ramifications, not
(15:13):
just for that individual, but for the workforce in general.
I've said this since I left my career in banking.
Not everyone can leave and start their own business. We
need to keep women in the traditional workforce. But if
we're going to do that, it goes back to just
what we talked about before. We need to invest in
them earlier. We need to focus on training and leadership development,
(15:35):
we need to focus on people management, and we need
to think about them much more holistically than we have
in the past as just a cog in the wheel.
What are their situations? Um, how do we support those
situations so they don't walk out the door? Okay? And
I mean, and this is the reason we talk about
the group that went off to start their own businesses. UM,
(15:58):
I saw a very disconcerting autistic just this morning. Companies
founded solely by women in the U s rais just
of total venture capital funding last year. And I imagine
this is something that sparked you to create your fellowship program.
I think in where you bring women owned businesses, education
tools and coaching, and you've got partnerships with Unilever, Verizon
(16:21):
and some other corporates. Um, what's the latest on your
fellowship program? I mean, what's worked and what hasn't and
how difficult has it been to get them, the women
owned businesses the funding that they need. So first and foremost,
you know we've gotten as you mentioned, we've got incredible
partners that are not only putting money behind these fellowships,
(16:41):
they're putting education and access to resources that they're providing
small businesses. But not everybody knows what they do. Right,
if you take UBS or a horizon in our Unilever,
how are we helping them? I think what's come out
of this first year and now we're in the second
year with about a thousand more women own businesses and
job seekers as well. UH, is that community resources, door winners,
(17:07):
as well as fuel to spend are equally as important
as funding and capital. And I think that the funding
and capital conversation really has to be um carved off
that two of women owned businesses that receive venture capital
must grow, and just like everything else in this world,
we have to get to parity. However, not every business
(17:31):
needs to nor should they go after external or particularly
venture capital funding. There's a very small percentage of companies,
whether they're run by a man or women, that need
or should go after venture capital. Number two, you better
know what you're gonna do with that money and what
that means, because now you've just got on a bicycle
or you're continuing to raise money. The second is, as
(17:54):
I mentioned earlier, more than seventy percent of women on
businesses sell, founder, bootstrap the business. Some of that's a necessity.
Some of that's out of I want control, I want
to own this, I want to create a legacy. How
do you then provide financial instruments to help them build
their business, whether that's through banks, whether that's through grants,
whether that's through crowdfunding and other other mechanisms. So giving
(18:17):
our fellows access to all of these tools and the
education around them so that they can make informed decisions
is first and foremost. Every time you take money, we
know this, you buy a car, you buy a house,
there is a string attached. If you need money to run, operate, growth,
scale your business, you better understand what those strings are
(18:39):
and the different again mechanisms around what those what strings
to pull around how you build up business um you
know business boot camps, we teach, We teach um the act,
how to the power of capital and what that means
to your company. Fuel to spend, I would argue, is
even a bigger issue for women known businesses that than
access to capital. You have to get customers to buy
(19:02):
your products and services. Okay, Chicken and the Egg. You
may not have thousands of dollars a month to spend
on paid social ads or marketing or a CMO. So
how do you think strategically about customer acquisition, strategic selling, partnerships, collaboration,
and a lot of what we teach is around again,
fuel to spend, and then combining that with here's a
(19:25):
community that's supporting. Here are you know, marketplaces you can leverage,
Here are resources and other types of education, social media, marketing,
operating plans. We forget because we're in these giant companies.
You yourself at Bloomberg, I, JP, Morgan, HSBC, Bank of America,
you forget the infrastructure that is behind you to run
(19:49):
just your job. So from a business owner, it's really
providing them access to all of these tools and resources,
and then we leverage our partners and those fellows to
bring in specialized subject matter ex to teach as well.
(20:10):
It's been interesting how the advice that people have been
seeking has has evolved during the pandemic, of course, And yeah,
I think you told me early on, you know, the
early months of the pandemic, it was all about visibility.
You know, does my boss know what the heck I'm
doing when now that we're all remote. And then it
shifted more into mental health and wellness as burnout became
(20:31):
a big problem. And now as we move into the
third year of the pandemic, kit what are women asking
about now? I think a big one And and we
can break this out into a couple of things as negotiation.
So negotiation we tend to think of it in I'm
negotiating for my next job or my next salary. There's
so much more within the world of negotiation. It's negotiating
(20:52):
for flexibility depending on your situation. It's negotiating if you
need to actually return to an office. It's negociation around childcare.
What are companies doing around subsidized childcare and what are
those plans? So there's a big request from us from
a lot of our corporate members and the women that
(21:13):
are in the traditional workforce asking us for more tips
and how to negotiate. I think the other thing it
goes back to the long lasting problem of visibility and exposure.
You know, we just as women, as our gender and
underrepresented community is very similar, just don't have the exposure
and the visibilities that are our white male counterparts have.
(21:36):
And that's that's historical, that's societal that's built over years
and years. That's not just a new problem. And but
we can't get anywhere unless we start working in conjunction
with men around building up that visibility and exposure. And
that's why, as you know, met that we have always
wanted men, We've welcomed men, We work with men because
(21:57):
we have to do this together. UM. And I think
the other thing that I'm I don't know if it's
surprising to me or maybe because I've been doing this
so long and I have a long career, is still confidence, right,
Confidence to go in and negotiate, confidence to manage a team,
confidence to ask for the next role. So this idea
(22:17):
of um really promotion and advocating for yourself versus always
advocating for others. And then the last thing is still
virtual networking and relationship building. You would think we're, you know,
two well into two years into this, that it would
be sort of old hat for most people, but it's not. Uh,
it is still how do I connect in a virtual world,
(22:39):
whether that's my boss, a co worker, a stakeholder, someone
that's on my team. Um, this idea of virtual networking
seems maybe easy for many of us or now we've
gotten used to the zoom screens, but it's still not
necessarily as effective for everyone. So how do you continue
to utilize virtual networking building relationships? And by the way,
(23:02):
news splash, it's never going away because our work has
changed dramatically. No one will ever go into an office
five days a week, I don't think ever again. So
get used to the zoom screens because you're going to
be using it for building your own brand, your relationships,
your companies. That's the way of the future. Yeah, So
talk to me about how should women promote themselves in
(23:25):
a more virtual environment. How are the tactics different from
being face to face with the boss and and with colleagues.
So I think a couple of kind of unique ways
is when you're in a meeting and internally, right, you
may not. I mean again, unless you're in a very
small company. I mean I used to working at the
companies that I did. You always joined meetings and didn't.
He's like, oh, I never met you in person. I've
(23:47):
seen your name on email. Take the time, even in
the chat where a private d M within the chat,
to introduce yourself. What you do, you know, what your
role is, how long you've been in the company. It's
a great easy way to sort of get to know someone.
The other thing is take advantage of more one on
ones than less with your boss. In the old days,
I'm using air quotes. You know, you'd have to go
(24:07):
into your boss's office. Maybe it would be a half
an hour. An hour. Now you could say, hey, Matt,
I need you for five minutes. I just want to
give you an update on what I've been working on.
Or I need you for five minutes because I want
to ask your opinion on something, or I need five
minutes because I really have a great idea and a
solution to a problem the team has been facing. Great
snack able, digestible moments that you could have with your boss. Um.
(24:30):
And the other thing is follow up, follow up, follow up, right,
whether you're in a virtual world or in person world.
In order to promote authentically, you need to actually make
sure your boss, your manager is aware of what you're doing.
So whether that's a bi weekly Hey, here are a
couple of things I've worked on. Here are my accomplishments.
(24:50):
It's not bragging if it's based on fact, right, And
other people are promoting themselves, why shouldn't you. Uh. And
the last thing that I would say is, every time
you walk into a meeting, don't let it be the
first thing where you're automatically starting to promote someone else.
Think about how you can talk about and advocate for
yourself in addition to others. Um And I just don't
(25:13):
see that happening. I mean, I'm amazed. We work with
so many corporate members as well as women in the
traditional workforce ereluminary and when we host these sessions, in
these workshops, what it's not just junior women, it is
all the way up to this senior ranks c h
r os, chief people officers, chief revenue officer saying I'm
(25:34):
not that great at, you know, promoting myself, for advocating
for myself. Will you better? Because you know, the next
big role that comes around or that next big opportunity
your boss. And by the way, in a matrix world,
in an organization, everyone needs to know what you're doing,
so that we're spending a lot of time I think
because of the virtual world, UM, and I'm not seeing
(25:57):
someone every day in an office on UM on that
promotion and self advocacy. When you don't see people every
day in office. I mean, there's research out there that
says that particularly UM, people of color prefer remote work
in many ways because they're not subject the daily microaggressions
that they experienced in traditional office life. Have you spoken
(26:18):
to women, particularly minority women, who faced that is? Is that?
Is that a thing? That is a huge thing? UM.
I remember last February February our digital uh being a
Black Woman in Corporate America was part of our programming
for Black History Month. Will do that again starting the
first week of February, the eye opening remarks. I think
(26:40):
that both from a person of color that we was
sitting in there in that digital room, to anyone else
that had never been in those shoes, around code switching,
around the microaggressions or on everything that they faced, that
you wouldn't you wouldn't have been able to recognize. So
I think it is a huge issue I think I've
seen which is I think, I think incredibly motivating inspiring
(27:04):
over this past year is the amount of movement in
the corporate world of new opportunities for people of color.
And you're seeing that not only in heads of D
E and I, but much bigger roles and running businesses,
board roles, but as a as an organization that runs
(27:25):
a both the physical community and now a global community
and more than thirty countries, more than our members MATT
or women of color, So we get the opportunity every
day to ask them those questions. And I think companies, small,
medium in large have to provide brave spaces for those
conversations to be had and not in an echo chamber.
(27:49):
Right Historically, what has tended to happen is, and this
happens in every organization, the Women's Network, the Black Network,
the Pride Network, and so you're all saying the same
thing because yes, you have an affinity, you you you're
part of that group for a reason. Now we've really
got a force almost to an extent ally ship and
bringing other representation, other gender into those conversations so that
(28:14):
real change can happen. And I think that is what
leaders should start be holding accountable for, is creating these rooms,
these tables, these spaces for real conversation to happen, so
that real change can happen. Yeah. I mean, we've talked
a lot about remote work um in this conversation, Kate,
But I mean I think for a majority of workers,
(28:36):
it's not going to be fully remote or fully in
the office, will be some type of hybrid arrangement. So
when you do return to the office, and I know
a lot of those returns have been delayed first by
Delta and now by O Macron. But let's say you're
in the office part time, like a lot of people
might be in the coming months. How do you maximize
that time and what's worked for you individually, and what
(28:57):
do you think will work you know, for most women.
So I think you know, and we've seen some of
our our corporate partners and members really thinking through number one.
You don't have to set a policy in place that's
gonna last forever. Right, there's a lot of what we
call a b testing or trial and arrogant that can happen.
Let's see what happens in a quarter, let's see what
(29:18):
works and what doesn't and actually get feedback from our employees.
I think some of the things that we've seen working
is instead of having you come in Tuesday and I
come in Wednesday, and someone comes in Thursday, is really
packing in those team meetings on the days when people
are can come in. So if I'm saying Tuesday, Wednesdays
are days in the office, then really pack those team
(29:41):
meetings in so you're having that ideation and that collaboration
in an office environment. Obviously there will likely be people
that join remotely. Also giving those remote people the opportunity
to speak first when you're in and when you're in
an office, you're sitting around a conference room. Often times
whoever sitting and this happened well before remote work, right,
(30:03):
we sit on WebEx is and tell presents and the
people on the screen we're always the last to speak.
So give those individuals the first opportunity to speak when
there is a question posed to the audience or the
who's ever sitting in the meeting asked the people that
are on that screen to speak first, or if they
have comments first. Little things like that can go a
long way at making sure all voices are recognized. And
(30:27):
the other thing is, as I said, if you could
get people, even if it's one day a week, that
everyone's in that office at the same time. Is ensure
you're having a team meeting. Ensure you as a manager
are doing as many one on ones as you possibly
can in person. Obviously health and safeties first and foremost,
but that in person connection can go a long way.
(30:49):
And making sure that that next one on one, even
if it's the five minute zoom or phone call. We
have to remember phones. I think you and I talked
about this when we first had a converse. Phones still exist.
Doesn't always have to be a zoom, So pick up
the phone and just check in on someone. We do
it with our friends. Why can't we do that with
our employees. It's so funny. A PR person asked me
(31:13):
the other day. You know, well, I know you've get
so many emails. How do I get your attention? I've said,
why don't you pick up the phone and call me?
You know? Um, So the I mean the intricacies of
hybrid work and and how this new frontier we're facing,
I mean, it's really putting a lot of pressure on
on HR officers. I know you talked to a lot
of chief HR officers, many of them women, and it's
(31:35):
clear that this position is under unprecedented stress from the pandemic.
You know, they don't just have to think about training
and development and hiring. They have to think about HVAC
systems and office ventilation and ever changing COVID policies and
how do we deal with that remote employee who wants
to move to you know, bolder and we don't have
an office there. Um. I mean, do you think that
(31:57):
some women in these roles, those who really rise to
the occasion and become you know, sort of true strategic
partners with the CEOs and the C suite, do you
think some of them could rise to become CEO as themselves,
Because I think both of us know the HR function
is not a typical path to the CEO position, But
but why not? Well, I absolutely do. First of all,
(32:19):
I think the HR, the c h r O, even
the chief Chief People Officer role has changed dramatically in
the past uh in the past two years, and um,
I mean we're seeing it. We're seeing the former c
h r O of UNI Labor now becoming the CEO
of Chanel Uh. That's a great example. She spent thirty
(32:40):
years at Unilever in various for the for the most part,
HR roles, but she really understood the intricacy of the organization.
She worked with lines of business, she worked with d
E and I, she'll worked with you know, the functions,
so she understand and obviously reporting directly to the CEO.
You learned so much, UM. I think that that's actually
a unique opportunity that's coming out of the pandemic. The
(33:03):
c h r O role, whatever you want to call it,
has become so important. It can no longer report into operations.
It should report directly into the CEO. And I would
argue even the heads of D E and I and
some organizations should no longer report into the c h
r O. They should be reporting directly into the CEO.
That broad skills that a c h r O role
(33:25):
and not for everyone. I think though in this this
this experience, like you mentioned operations, right, the c h
r O was no longer it was no longer just
the CEO and and facilities. The c h r OH
is part of that UM figuring out what it looks
like for remote office and hybrid figuring out process no
longer just hiring. These are so under rate, underestimated UH
(33:50):
skills that I think every CEO has to have UM.
And like I said, we're seeing it with the Unilever,
former Unileverse c h R O moving into the c
the Chanel CEO role. I think that's a signal to
the market to two very different industries. I mean, yes,
there's still CpG channel's luxury goods as well, but I
think this is actually a really unique opportunity for chief
(34:13):
people officers and c h r o s to really
stop up and see. Let me take that on. And
I think about Mary Barrett at GM also worked in
HR for some time, so I bring her up because
today there are some news that my former colleague at
at a Fortune magazine, Patty Sellers, has created this new
nonprofit group called Journey which which is looking to address
(34:33):
the pyramid effect where the share of women's shrinks as
they rise up the corporate ranks, something you're very familiar with.
But this new group is going to connect twenty five
fellows with twenty five influential female executives, including Mary of
General Motors. What do you make of these efforts? I
think You've told me earlier that you're not a huge
fan of of formalized mentorship programs. Do you do you think?
(34:56):
You know? Do you think this will work? I listen.
I think when you have the involvement of people like
a Mary Barrow right, who gets it. I think she's
there for a reason, and whoever she mentors, she's going
to make it work. I think it's a little bit
harder when there are formal mentoring programs within an organization,
(35:17):
because you really need to understand what's the win win
for both sides. You also need to understand that mentoring
is very much a chemistry driven relationship, and it's a
true relationship. Mentees need to go into these situations thinking
it's not just about them and they've been assigned a
mentor and that they're just going to take take take um.
(35:40):
It is a two way street. It is a reciprocal relationship.
So if you can create mentoring programs with rules and
guard rails around that and everyone agrees to it, terrific.
I think also the mentor word gets thrown around a lot.
I think we have forgotten there also the concept of
(36:01):
peer mentorship and reverse mentorship. A lot of mentorship happens
organically if you just put the right people in a room. UM.
And some of that organically happens between two individuals. None
of my mentors in my career, with the exception of one, UM,
we're in a formalized mentoring program. Uh. It was I created,
(36:22):
we created relationships, UM, and there was a give and take.
And I think that's why those mentors that I no
longer in banking, even though they're all still in banking,
I still consider them mentors and I still have relationships
with them because they can be lifelong. UM. In a
situation like this without knowing the full background, I think
(36:43):
you've got twenty five incredible leaders that are saying we
need to I personally need to do more, and they
understand that it could be game changing for that mentee. UM. Equally,
the mentee needs that you know, rules and regulations and
roles and responsibilities and guard rails around what this can
look like. But really, you know, I'm a big believer
(37:05):
in reciprocity and the idea that all relationships, mentors, sponsorship, etcetera.
They are a two way street and you get out
of them what you put into them. So if you're
there for the wrong reasons. I just don't think it works.
(37:27):
What's the best piece of advice you ever you've ever
received from a mentor, from a manager, from from your mom,
doesn't matter. I'd like to know the best piece of
advice you ever got and who gave it to you.
You know, I I have had such good advice from
you know, an incredible mentors and sponsors. I think the
(37:49):
biggest thing that that I go back to time and
time again is don't secondly guess yourself. Um, if you're prepared,
if you know you're you know, if you know what
you're talking about, if you've got it down pat, don't
second guess yourself. And oftentimes I do think women, um,
and I'm just speaking on behalf of myself as a gender. Uh,
we do second guess ourselves. And so this idea goes
(38:12):
back to the confidence building, the self promotion, the self advocacy.
Don't second guess yourself. And I've heard that, you know
from many many of my mentors that have observed me
over years and years as I've built my career. Um.
And by the way, not every piece of advice your
mentor or your sponsors gives you is going to be
(38:35):
advice that you're going to take, but that you really
have to be opening to listen and open to change.
So that second guessing thing, as is I think is
for me has been a big piece as a business
owner as well. Right, that's carrying well into my entrepreneurial journey. Yeah,
well it's bonus ses In Kaden, And you mentioned negotiation earlier.
(38:55):
How important negotiation is? I think you made a good
point that it's not just about getting your next job
or or a pay raise. It could be about flexible
work or making sure you have time off to to
care for a child or you know, or or an
elder care situation. How is how is negotiating for those
types of things though, different from negotiating just a hard,
(39:17):
straight ahead This is the bonus I want and and
you know this is what I did last year. I mean,
how do those negotiating tactics differ or maybe how are
they the same? Yeah? You know what I think, being
black and white, it's the same. Right, It's the same
as if you are a child and you're negotiating with
your parents about going somewhere, or you're wanting to spend
(39:38):
time with someone or asking for something. Um In particular
for a certain occasion you're negotiating, right, um, don't manipulate
and really negotiate. Build your business case, UH, and your
reasons why not that you need something? Why you deserve it? Right?
We often get confused between I need this because I
(40:01):
need the next big thing, I need to buy a house,
I need to get no, no, no. Build the business
case around why you deserve that. M own that ask
um and put the put the I would call it
ammunition behind that. Ask whether that's a raise? You better
know your number? What is your number? Um? And what
is the number you can get comfortable with if it's
(40:22):
not ultimately the number that you want? UM, And that's
what you're in you know, internally negotiating with your boss,
if you're negotiating for a new role, if you're negotiating
for for raising money, right, what's your drop dead number?
I think if you're negotiating for other benefits around flexibility
and return to the office and and work from home.
And I want to live in Boulder, but my job
is technically in New York. Build your business case around
(40:47):
why it will work and why it will benefit not
only you but your boss or your manager, and that organization.
It's really hard to say no when you've built those
business cases. And that's how I think of everything, whether
I'm talking to in my former life, my manager, clients,
even people um that worked for me all the way
(41:08):
to negotiating now with our corporate members and fellows and
thinking about everything else we're doing as a small business. Okay,
And I know you do a lot of round tables
with big companies, um, Kate. Are the themes of those
changing much as as we get into two? I know
some of them are constant, some of what we call
evergreen topics, but um, what new topics are maybe creeping
(41:33):
up or coming more to the forefront as you counsel
them these days, I think the big thing that keeps
coming up. And we're hosting a round table uh this
week on it is around accelerated hiring. Uh an accelerated him? Yeah,
so on both sides. So how do I get someone
a candidate in the seat faster? Right? Kind of what
(41:53):
I mentioned earlier in the show. You know it used
to take ten, twelve, twenty interviews to bring in that candidate.
Let's actually shrink that down as we look at our
hiring practices, does it really need. Do you really need
tend people to interview them? Could it be the three
most important stakeholders and make a decision. But we're tending
to hear from big companies in particular, is I have
these HR practices that are very old and by the
(42:16):
time I've gotten to the offer stage, that person has
already accepted another offer because someone went faster, right, they
had less of a process, it was less cumbersome, So
accelerated hiring on the employeer side, and then on the
employee side, is I want this job. This is what
it's going to take for you to hire me. So
(42:38):
we hear a lot that the control now is in
the job seekers hands. Yes and no. I still know
there are a lot of job seekers out there, um,
but thinking about what's important to you. So one of
the biggest things that we're hearing is the questions that
are being asked in the interview process. Now, in the
old days, it used to be the employer asks and
sort of by being n do you have any questions
(43:01):
for me? Not? Uh, Now it's yes, here is my
list of questions. Here's what I want out of this role.
Are you offering X? So these job seekers are coming
very prepared and not only camp but what is your culture, like,
what is your office environment? How are you thinking about
hybrid and not accepting roles when all those boxes aren't checked.
(43:24):
So this accelerated hiring um is on both sides and
I think goes back to again historical hiring processes for
many companies have to change. They just have to How
you mentioned bringing questions the interviewee, the job seeker coming
or armed with questions, and as a reporter, I would
(43:45):
certainly agree with that. You always want to do that,
but can that How do you make sure you you're
asking the smart questions? But what maybe without coming off
as a bit too I don't know, aggressive or demanding
too much. I know, as you say, there is more
power in the job seekers ends right now. Um, and
not just for white collar jobs, I think for blue
collar jobs as well. Um, But you know, any tips
(44:07):
in terms of you know how many you know? How
far should you go with with those questions? Certainly you
want to know about like you know a hybrid work
plan and you know time off and things like that,
But um, you know what would you cancel in terms
of how far to push those questions as a job
seeker you know, I think the word demanding is probably
not the right word because that when one when either
(44:32):
party demands, I don't think it's a recipe for a
good partnership and good working relationship in the future. I
think there has to be a give and take. If
you're the job seeker again, numbers wise, what are you
willing to take? Right now? It's becoming even more transparent
in some situations in some states right around salary ranges.
So you should know going in, what's your number? Um?
(44:54):
When you're asking about you know, the different flexibility options, benefits,
amenities to the job. You know, I've counseled my nephew
on this. You know, are they providing are they paying
for internet since you're going to be work from home?
Are they paying for your phone? Things like that, Things
like we often think of total comp as in for
many industries, my salary and my bonus. If there's a
(45:15):
bonus component, okay, what does that mean? Ask those questions?
How what does my health care look like? What's included
in my insurance? Um? I've heard a lot pet care
is pet included? Right? Um? So ask those questions. Being
an informed job seeker as well, don't just wait for
that offer letter. Um, and I think again, if this
(45:37):
is a company that you really think, you better know
a lot about them, You better know about the management,
You better do your due diligence on the culture. Ask around,
look on different sites, because it's not just about the job,
and it's not just about the compensation. It's about the culture.
And I think over the last two years, you know,
talking about what companies are talking to us about, is
(45:58):
this shift in understanding culture? Anecdotally giving you one example
from a small business side, it's not just the large businesses.
We were recently hiring a programming associate and the majority
of her questions when I finally interviewed her throughout the
rest of my team was around representation, not just representation
(46:18):
on the staff, but representation within the community, representation on
the with the within the programming, and if we were
really practicing what we were preaching as an organization. And
I thought that was not only bold, but they were
the right questions to ask the CEO and the founder. So, Um,
you never know. I think it's got to be a
great working relationship. You don't want to work for someone
(46:41):
that you're not going to with your respect and employer,
doesn't I want to hire someone that that's going to
lead within the first you know, six months to a year,
So there's gotta be a win win, don't Yeah, I
think I mean things like representation, Kate. I don't think either.
That word wouldn't have crossed our minds, you know, in
our first job interview or anyone really, but it's great
that they're there for being asked. Now, Okay, thank you
(47:02):
so much for your time today with us here and
out of office. I really enjoyed the conversation. Likewise, thanks
for having me. That was my colleague Matt Boyle and
conversation with Kate Louisier, the founder and CEO of Luminary.
What an incredible woman and incredible entrepreneur. I love that
(47:24):
chat and I hope you did too. This podcast was
produced by Magnus Hendrickson. I'm Aleica could pour stay well
and as always, thank you for listening.
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