October 26, 2022 • 24 mins
DoorDash CEO Tony Xu speaks with Emily Chang in the latest episode of Studio 1.0
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I saw a shark tank trailer. Yeah, what was
the most like surprising thing about it? Um? How kind?
Mr wonderful? Actually? How soft he is? I guess he is. Yeah,
he's a really nice guy. Did it give you any
flashbacks to your y C days and the panic days
(00:20):
of early entrepreneurship. Yes, And that they do about forty
five minutes of shooting for seven minutes of airing. And
so if the entrepreneur makes a mistake, and there are
a few of these, it's totally fine. I'm Tony how
(00:42):
was a product editor Square and the four of us
came together about six months ago to work on software
for small business owners. That's the application video Tony Shoe
and his door Dash co founders submitted to get a
ticket into why Combinators prestigious startup accelerator. Back fast forward
nearly ten years later, and Doortosh has gone from a
struggling food delivery story to a public company that's the
(01:05):
US leader in delivery. But the big question facing companies
now is how to navigate a potentially prolonged economic downturn.
Joining me on this edition of Bloomberg Studio one Point Oh, Doortosh,
CEO and co founder Tony Shoe. Tony, it's so great
(01:34):
to see you in person. Um. You went public in
the pandemic. We're talking remotely, UM, but there's nothing quite
like an in person interview, So thank you for being here.
It's great to be here. You basically grew up in
a restaurant, as I understand it. What was it like
leaving China, moving to Illinois and starting this new life.
(01:57):
It was a classic immigrant story in many ways, I
would say, looking back, almost a fairy tale like journey,
where you know, my parents came to the US with
two or fifty dollars in the bank. We immigrated to Illinois, Champagne, Urbanna.
My dad got his degree at the University of Illinois.
My mom put food on the table by working three
jobs a day, one of which did happen to be
in a Chinese restaurant where I moonlighted as a dishwasher.
(02:18):
So I got to hang out with mom that way
as a way of growing up, and I did that.
I mowed lawns, and that's really kind of how I
saved up money to buy Nintendo games and do all
the things that were the wonders of my childhood. What
do you think you learned from that, you know, mowing
lawns early, washing dishes early. I think two things. You know,
(02:39):
one looking backwards, it's just that you have to work
to actually get things done. I didn't understand what it
meant to live off of food stamps um, to buy
groceries or free and reduced lunch you know every day
inside school. Um, but it was a very empowering feeling
to buy my own Nintendo or earn my way to
buy my first Apple computer. The second thing was really
(03:00):
just the power of independent thinking. You know, my parents
because they were so busy just trying to make a
life for our family that I was largely left alone.
So I grew up um, playing basketball, watching TV. That's
how I learned English. I grew up moving around a
lot as a kid, and as a result, I think
that gave me a lot of time to realize that
(03:20):
it's pretty important to think for yourself. So you studied
engineering at Berkeley, went to business school at Stanford, and
you actually started out as an intern at Square I did.
I I can't tell you how many people have said
to me, Tony Shoe was my intern. That's where like,
that's how long I've been doing this and how you know,
doortash just kind of came out of nowhere. Yeah, I
(03:43):
you know, it was It was actually a pretty stiff
competition between finishing school, Jack Dorsey and Keith. We're trying
to convince me to leave Stanford and work at Square
full time. It was a fun and busy period of
my time, but but I enjoyed both. So how did
the idea for doortosh come about? And the decision to
not work for you know, Jack Dorsey and Square, which
I'm sure was also kind of intoxicating, right. The idea
(04:05):
for DoorDash really came from this, you know, lifelong interest
in helping these physical business owners, really people like my mom.
So we talked to hundreds of small business owners and
it was surprising to us that even in delivery was
not a solved problem. There were business owners who would
show us literally booklets of delivery orders that they would refuse.
(04:27):
I mean, we we're talking about thousands of dollars per week,
which is you know, the difference sometimes between making payroll
and and actually you know, surviving, and they would just
turn them down because they were delivery orders, which to
us was a really novel and unfortunate phenomenon and frankly
unnecessary one. And that really became, you know, the impetus
to start Tordosh. You started out driving for competitors, right,
(04:50):
I was driving for a lot of different services to
try to actually understand you know, logistics. You know, my background,
as you mentioned more engineering math, I thought I was
going to be a cancer these dreaman that's pretty much
what I spent all of my undergraduate days at Berkeley doing.
Um that kind of one eight into a world of business.
But and so I think it's really important to really
learn things for yourself, you know, to think from first
(05:11):
principles kind of you know, again back to that independent
thinking mindset I talked about as a child growing up,
and try for uber Lift, I even drove for you
know services they were a little bit older, you know,
services like FedEx or Dominoes and really try to explore,
you know, how does delivery work. And it was really
trying to understand you know, every component part. I mean,
it sounds really simple, right, bring you a burrito from
(05:33):
point A to point B, but there were actually twenty
steps involved in that delivery. It just didn't appear as
obvious to the naked eyes. Of the first two years
of door to ashes life, we did delivers almost every
single day. So where did you go from there? I mean,
I mean early days. I know Elon Musk has said
starting a company is like swallowing glass and staring into
(05:55):
the abyss of death. One of the first ones came
actually as early as month three of the company's life,
so we were maybe eleven weeks twelve weeks old as
a company. Um, there was a big Standford football game
in September and you know, long story short, we were
laid on every single order and we had no ability
to turn off the site. So it was just horrendous.
Everyone in the company, all twelve of us, were delivering
(06:17):
and everyone you know, rightfully so was furious because of
how late we were. And so we had a decision
to make, you know, do we do the right thing
and refund you know, every single customer, which would have
cost us about our bank account, um, or do we
you know, do a less right thing and and survive
another day because it was very hard for us at
(06:37):
that time to raise capital, which you know was something
true for Doordash's early history. And you know, it took
us about thirty seconds to click submit refund, and you
know the lesson for us always as a founding team
and frankly even today as a as a company, as
we'd rather die chasing excellence than lived to be mediocre.
It wasn't so obvious either in the in the earlier years.
(06:59):
I remember you did a down round. I think you
actually came on the show around that time. How did
you weather the doubters and the you know, the people
who didn't believe There were about a thousand days in
the desert between seventeen and eighteen. Sometimes with company building, UM,
so long as you can convince yourself because time is
(07:20):
your most precious resource, you should keep going. And if
you can keep going long enough, you might get lucky
enough to make it so over time, How did you
balance quality with the need and desire to scale and
then scale globally? In these types of businesses where it's
low margin, high complexity, you really have to figure out
what your unit of business is. You know, for us,
(07:40):
that was a city. So in order to before going
to seven thousand or ten thousand cities globally, we made
one city work. And after city one worked, we made
city to work. And after we started getting higher and
higher confidence that we can make baskets of cities work
irrespect of the geographies or what you know, the customer
situation look like, or what the merchant makeup was. Then
(08:02):
we gained the confidence to actually roll out everywhere. Then
came the pandemic. Um Brian Chesky has said the pandemic
was like a torpedo for Airbnb. Was it like the
opposite for Doorda? It was like the biggest wave behind
her back, which you know, had the ability to break us,
and and and almost did because we grew two x
(08:26):
in two weeks. We went from a singular US restaurant
delivery business that's what you and I would be talking
about in to today five businesses in twenty seven countries.
You know, much more than just restaurants and and so
all of that was created in the last two years.
Georges went public middle of the pandemic, and I remember
(08:47):
actually you were coming on Bloomberg and the price doubled
at the open, and we were coming out of obviously
terrible economic times. You know, the depths of the pandemic.
What do they feel like when you know you're going
on into the world starting to sell to public investors
and the price just doubles. It was certainly very exciting.
It was exhilarating. You know, it was the first time
that you know, our company went public, the first time
(09:09):
that I had ever undergone any of those types of
experiences before. But at that, you know, in the back
of my head at you know, it was that saying
that you're never as good or as bad as they
say you are, and so just remember that. So tease
that out for me a little bit, because the big
question is how much do customers keep ordering out in
a high inflation environment, how much long term you know,
(09:30):
sustainability and growth is there. Really, Even though Covid is
now effectively sustained and we understand how to live with it,
customers are continuing to order Those that joined us during
the pandemic, they're still ordering out about the same rights
as those who joined us before the pandemic. And that's
because eating out and getting things delivered are pretty complimentary.
(09:51):
On the second point around inflation, you know, I can
say then the last sixty years, and looking at the data,
spend in restaurants and engross have only declined in two
of those sixty years, including high inflationary times, much higher
than what we observe today. And so what I think
I take um, you know, solacen, even though I see
the fact that there is high inflation, is that customers
(10:14):
are going to continue spending on food, and our job
is to bring greater and greater affordability. More broadly, the
economy is in a tough position. Your competitors have announced
layoffs and hiring freezes and slow downs. Is door dash
considering any of these? And I think we've been fortunate
mostly because most of our investments that happened during the
pandemic really were meant to build new businesses, and those
(10:37):
new businesses have continued to grow. New businesses, you know,
beyond restaurants in categories like grocery, convenience, um or retail,
new businesses overseas. You know, we announced a large acquisition
Involt where that really helped double our overall addressable market
to seven million people. New businesses and building an advertising business,
new businesses, expanding our services and building a platform to
(11:00):
help businesses build their own digital operations. Do you see
dortosh is more of a super app of the future
or is it something different? Well, I see Doortash as
really solving two problems. You know. Problem one is how
do we bring incremental demand to all the physical businesses
as they kind of figure out their own digital in
house capabilities. And the second problem we're trying to solve
(11:20):
is bring tools to these businesses. There's still a lot
of competition and delivery. Who do you think survives the
delivery wars? Who doesn't and why? Well, delivery is a
scale economies game. You know, at the end of the day,
you can survive even doing deliveries. From a singular story,
you know, there's still mom and pop pizza shops and
Chinese restaurants that do their own delivery. Do you see
(11:41):
dortash as a challenger to like Walmart, Amazon, Well, I
see doortash Um, you know, as a champion of local
businesses and physical businesses. I don't think that a world
in which we just get what we want to buy
or consume for a few places is a world that
again is as worth enjoying living in it. For our
(12:03):
job is to make sure that all of these businesses,
all of the millions of physical businesses globally, can continue
to compete. I do a lot of door dash helps
me be a working mom whenever I interview you. I
get pings from dashers and some of them say they
don't get paid enough. Some of them seem pretty angry.
What's your response to them. We want the local economy
(12:26):
to grow and to thrive. That includes dashers. We have
three million dashers that come to the platform every single quarter,
and so it's really important to me what they say.
And it's in fact why you know the company myself included,
we still Dash do deliveries. In other words, once a month.
You still do deliveries once a month. It's why we
have a Dasher Community Council that we started three four
(12:46):
years ago. Now, I want to see one of your
memos after a delivery? Are you like sending notes? I'm texting.
It's not even after the delivery. I'm texting, you know,
not texting while I'm driving, but texting after after I
complete the order from your deliver rais what have you learned? Everything?
All of the details, everything from you know, pay considerations,
um UM, everything from UM operations at a store. You
(13:09):
know which stores are a bit faster in their operations
or more consistent, which stores are are less consistent. Where
do you find the last parking space? In downtown San Francisco. UM,
all of these details matter. They matter for efficiency, they
matter for driver pay, they matter for merchant earnings. And
so as a result, you know, what I say to
(13:31):
dashers is please continue to talk to me. I'm just
Tony at door Dash, and we're always trying to, you know,
make things better. We're not saying that we're perfect, but
when we look at um, you know the data that
we've collected, you know, the average dasher is making an
hour nationwide when they're on when they're doing deliveries and
so and most ashes are pretty satisfied. So door Dash
(13:52):
has been expanding internationally. Sounds like you're on the road
a lot. I'm on the road. I am on the
road u as Canada, Australia, at Japan, where elsewhere? Next? Germany,
you know, Israel, Finland, UM, a lot of the Nordics. UM. So,
so we're in we're in twenty seven countries, UM and
and and a lot of that is run by you know,
(14:14):
the Volts team that we were lucky to partner with.
Beyond volt How are you thinking about M and A.
Are there any verticals or areas in particular where you
might be interested in acquiring. You know, we have five businesses,
the US restaurants business, the new Categories business with a
focus on comedians and grocery non US international twenty seven countries,
are B two B business, and our ads business. So
(14:34):
we have quite a full plate on M and A. Specifically,
it's a high bar. M and A. I think sometimes
looks a lot better on paper than can be achieved
in reality. And I think it's because you're talking about,
at the end of the day, combining human organizations, not
just businesses or products or lines on a spreadsheet. I
think you have to deliver upon that promise, and so
(14:56):
for us the bar isn't just does it add to
our business, but does it a actually add to our culture.
You've been piloting rapid delivery, right, rapid delivery, But rapid
delivery seems to be contracting. What are you seeing in
your pilots? Is this some where you think you'll expand
or no? So I think customers are always going to
have expectations that go in one direction, right. I don't
think we're going to want things delivered more slowly over time,
(15:20):
or at higher prices or with less selection. Our core
use case right now is lunch and dinner, which is
highly repetitive, highly profitable, which allows us to invest in
things like fast deliveries. You bought Chowbotics last year but
shut it down. This is robotics, robotic kiosks, right. Um,
I'm curious how you're thinking about AI and um, you
(15:42):
know Uber shut down it's self driving stuff. Then they've
started it back up. Um, you know, how are you
thinking about AI and moonshots and some of this, you know,
potential new technology and how it could help door dash
or not? Like is it is it just not ready
for prime time when it comes to platform shifts or
new technology use AI, autonomy, you know, other types of technologies.
(16:04):
I tend to like to make the investment. I think
that's a more appropriate choice to not miss the shift. However,
I think it's very important to get the pacing right.
I still think that the merits behind what you know,
we were trying to do in partnership with the Chabotics team,
was was the right idea in which we can help
restaurants effectively build you know, a cheaper cost product. That's
(16:30):
ultimately what we were trying to do, but we weren't
ready yet with the technology. You recently joined Metas board.
What's it like working with Mark Zuckerberg. It's been fantastic,
you know, it's been a terrific learning experience, you know,
learning from Mark all the way to the incredible management
team at that company. It's has a broad mandate of
(16:51):
different products and as well as initiatives, and it's been
a privilege. Facebook and that are very controversial platform. Um,
there's you know, controversy about whether Facebook is really good
for the world, whether Facebook should have as much power
as it should. How do you think about that? And
how are you advising Mark about how to use that power.
With great power comes great responsibility. And I think Facebook
(17:14):
has a lot of influence UM and met as you know,
different properties as as you know, I'm sure you cover
you know, served billions of people you know, every single day,
and and and that that that's an enormous privilege and
an enormous responsibility that they take incredibly seriously. Like should
any company be more powerful than multiple governments combined? I
don't think I see it, you know, exactly that way, right,
(17:37):
because it's still a contract between between you know, the
company and its users. I think what's important for men
to do and they're doing this absolutely is how do
we set the guard rails, you know, to make it
fair safe for everyone? And this is very, very very difficult.
You're also an investor a number of different startups. One
(17:59):
of them is I'll yes, Web three company, any plans
to accept crypto, any plans for DoorDash to accept crypto.
Crypto right now is going through a period where it's
trying to, you know, figure out what's next in terms
of its use case. You know, I think everyone myself included,
very bullish on the technology of what the blockchain enables.
(18:20):
What do you think could be the future of blockchain
technology in food delivery and delivery in general. Well, I
I don't know if it's going to get applied directly,
you know, to food or or or to delivery. I mean,
I think, you know, it absolutely has the potential to
create a new economic infrastructure, right and economic structure that
(18:41):
can really serve as the basis for new banking systems
um um in etcetera. And so I think that's something
more that's tangential to the world of delivery. Obviously, payments
is one part of of what we do, but it's
not the central thing. So we're gonna do a little
rapid fire, a little quicker fun questions. Favorite food I've
ordered from eleven d different doorsh restaurants, So I actually
(19:06):
like to try everything. Your business, idol. There are people
in retail that I've admired. You know, the people that
founded um everything from Walmart to Costco, UM, the team
in Amazon, you know, in e commerce, the team UM
Elon Musk and what he's trying to do. What about
Elon must buying Twitter? If he has time to to
(19:29):
to run a third company, I think that'd be fantastic
for the world. You grew up in Illinois, you live
in California. You like basketball? Ye, favorite team Warriors. I
grew up in the golden days of Michael Jordan's you
know Scottie Pippen and and actually you know both the
early nineties as well as the later nineties in which
(19:51):
they won three in a row. I'm still a Bulls diehard,
even though we're in a rock patch right now. I
wo you also like to run. You run marathons? Well,
I don't run marathons today, so just to be clear,
but I do run every day. So that's been my sanctuary,
if you will, for the past ten years, Okay, you're
still pretty young. How do you think having kids has
changed you as a leader? You know, I think kids
(20:14):
are amazing in that they're experiencing the world for the
first time, being able to listen versus to you know,
talk at or to dictate an opinion. You know. I
think that's been, you know, a big lesson. I think
the second one is the power of curiosity. You know, kids,
especially my kids at their ages of two and four,
(20:36):
are asking the question why a lot, and I think
it's the best question, and it's so hard to answer
because you know, it requires clarity of thinking on everything,
on the most basic things, too more complicated things. How
has being an Asian American CEO impacted your experience? Well,
I think being an Asian growing up where I was
(21:00):
the only Asian um and that was kind of my
experience in Illinois certainly had a big experience and where
um it very directly. You know, um, I saw firsthand,
you know, whether it was bullying or discrimination. But but
I think if I were more broadly classify that to
the privileged position that I'm in today, I'm still a
(21:22):
minority in the sense that there aren't as many Asian
American CEOs or founders as maybe founders from other backgrounds,
And so I think it's that reminder to you know,
one always recognized that. And then I think, secondly to
always keep the underdog mentality. Do you think you faced
more challenges than others because Asian American CEOs are so
(21:44):
under represent Asian Americans are underrepresentative in leadership roles in
tech full stop? I can't say that, um, you know,
for me personally in building door dash was that the experience?
But look, I think it's your your writing calling out
when I look around me and when I look at
especially public company UM founder CEO as well, hey there
(22:05):
aren't that many be when you start filtering for you know,
those from Asian descent, it's a it's a much much
smaller list. And so I take that with you know,
great pride. I also take it with great responsibility really
and again remembering to invest in those who maybe don't
come from privileged backgrounds, giving them an equal shot at it,
(22:26):
and to always to stay hungry. You change your name
to Tony when you moved to the U S. You're
five years old, after Tony Danza, who was the star
of Who's the Boss. Correct. I loved that. I did
you know, no one could pronounce my Chinese name, and
so I said, okay, well let's just make it easier.
And so I walked with my dad to the immigration
(22:48):
office and legally changed my name. Did life change? Did
it feel like life changed? After that? It felt a
lot easier to say, Hi, I'm Tony, UM. What's it
like being the boss? Now? Okay, Honestly, I think I
don't see myself that way, and and I recognize that
that's probably not how others view me. But I really
(23:09):
view myself as a teammate. And you know, for me,
I think it's trying to make that actually true, make
the reality of how I feel true to the perception
that maybe others have of me as the boss, and
and making that distance shorter and shorter. Bloombrook Studio One
(23:39):
Point I was produced by Lauren Ellis and edited by
Matthew Soto. I'm Emily Chang, your host and executive producer.
Thanks for listening. The Sad Shad sh
So I saw a shark tank trailer. Yeah, what was
the most like surprising thing about it? Um? How kind?
Mr wonderful? Actually? How soft he is? I guess he is. Yeah,
he's a really nice guy. Did it give you any
flashbacks to your y C days and the panic days
(00:20):
of early entrepreneurship. Yes, And that they do about forty
five minutes of shooting for seven minutes of airing. And
so if the entrepreneur makes a mistake, and there are
a few of these, it's totally fine. I'm Tony how
(00:42):
was a product editor Square and the four of us
came together about six months ago to work on software
for small business owners. That's the application video Tony Shoe
and his door Dash co founders submitted to get a
ticket into why Combinators prestigious startup accelerator. Back fast forward
nearly ten years later, and Doortosh has gone from a
struggling food delivery story to a public company that's the
(01:05):
US leader in delivery. But the big question facing companies
now is how to navigate a potentially prolonged economic downturn.
Joining me on this edition of Bloomberg Studio one Point Oh, Doortosh,
CEO and co founder Tony Shoe. Tony, it's so great
(01:34):
to see you in person. Um. You went public in
the pandemic. We're talking remotely, UM, but there's nothing quite
like an in person interview, So thank you for being here.
It's great to be here. You basically grew up in
a restaurant, as I understand it. What was it like
leaving China, moving to Illinois and starting this new life.
(01:57):
It was a classic immigrant story in many ways, I
would say, looking back, almost a fairy tale like journey,
where you know, my parents came to the US with
two or fifty dollars in the bank. We immigrated to Illinois, Champagne, Urbanna.
My dad got his degree at the University of Illinois.
My mom put food on the table by working three
jobs a day, one of which did happen to be
in a Chinese restaurant where I moonlighted as a dishwasher.
(02:18):
So I got to hang out with mom that way
as a way of growing up, and I did that.
I mowed lawns, and that's really kind of how I
saved up money to buy Nintendo games and do all
the things that were the wonders of my childhood. What
do you think you learned from that, you know, mowing
lawns early, washing dishes early. I think two things. You know,
(02:39):
one looking backwards, it's just that you have to work
to actually get things done. I didn't understand what it
meant to live off of food stamps um, to buy
groceries or free and reduced lunch you know every day
inside school. Um, but it was a very empowering feeling
to buy my own Nintendo or earn my way to
buy my first Apple computer. The second thing was really
(03:00):
just the power of independent thinking. You know, my parents
because they were so busy just trying to make a
life for our family that I was largely left alone.
So I grew up um, playing basketball, watching TV. That's
how I learned English. I grew up moving around a
lot as a kid, and as a result, I think
that gave me a lot of time to realize that
(03:20):
it's pretty important to think for yourself. So you studied
engineering at Berkeley, went to business school at Stanford, and
you actually started out as an intern at Square I did.
I I can't tell you how many people have said
to me, Tony Shoe was my intern. That's where like,
that's how long I've been doing this and how you know,
doortash just kind of came out of nowhere. Yeah, I
(03:43):
you know, it was It was actually a pretty stiff
competition between finishing school, Jack Dorsey and Keith. We're trying
to convince me to leave Stanford and work at Square
full time. It was a fun and busy period of
my time, but but I enjoyed both. So how did
the idea for doortosh come about? And the decision to
not work for you know, Jack Dorsey and Square, which
I'm sure was also kind of intoxicating, right. The idea
(04:05):
for DoorDash really came from this, you know, lifelong interest
in helping these physical business owners, really people like my mom.
So we talked to hundreds of small business owners and
it was surprising to us that even in delivery was
not a solved problem. There were business owners who would
show us literally booklets of delivery orders that they would refuse.
(04:27):
I mean, we we're talking about thousands of dollars per week,
which is you know, the difference sometimes between making payroll
and and actually you know, surviving, and they would just
turn them down because they were delivery orders, which to
us was a really novel and unfortunate phenomenon and frankly
unnecessary one. And that really became, you know, the impetus
to start Tordosh. You started out driving for competitors, right,
(04:50):
I was driving for a lot of different services to
try to actually understand you know, logistics. You know, my background,
as you mentioned more engineering math, I thought I was
going to be a cancer these dreaman that's pretty much
what I spent all of my undergraduate days at Berkeley doing.
Um that kind of one eight into a world of business.
But and so I think it's really important to really
learn things for yourself, you know, to think from first
(05:11):
principles kind of you know, again back to that independent
thinking mindset I talked about as a child growing up,
and try for uber Lift, I even drove for you
know services they were a little bit older, you know,
services like FedEx or Dominoes and really try to explore,
you know, how does delivery work. And it was really
trying to understand you know, every component part. I mean,
it sounds really simple, right, bring you a burrito from
(05:33):
point A to point B, but there were actually twenty
steps involved in that delivery. It just didn't appear as
obvious to the naked eyes. Of the first two years
of door to ashes life, we did delivers almost every
single day. So where did you go from there? I mean,
I mean early days. I know Elon Musk has said
starting a company is like swallowing glass and staring into
(05:55):
the abyss of death. One of the first ones came
actually as early as month three of the company's life,
so we were maybe eleven weeks twelve weeks old as
a company. Um, there was a big Standford football game
in September and you know, long story short, we were
laid on every single order and we had no ability
to turn off the site. So it was just horrendous.
Everyone in the company, all twelve of us, were delivering
(06:17):
and everyone you know, rightfully so was furious because of
how late we were. And so we had a decision
to make, you know, do we do the right thing
and refund you know, every single customer, which would have
cost us about our bank account, um, or do we
you know, do a less right thing and and survive
another day because it was very hard for us at
(06:37):
that time to raise capital, which you know was something
true for Doordash's early history. And you know, it took
us about thirty seconds to click submit refund, and you
know the lesson for us always as a founding team
and frankly even today as a as a company, as
we'd rather die chasing excellence than lived to be mediocre.
It wasn't so obvious either in the in the earlier years.
(06:59):
I remember you did a down round. I think you
actually came on the show around that time. How did
you weather the doubters and the you know, the people
who didn't believe There were about a thousand days in
the desert between seventeen and eighteen. Sometimes with company building, UM,
so long as you can convince yourself because time is
(07:20):
your most precious resource, you should keep going. And if
you can keep going long enough, you might get lucky
enough to make it so over time, How did you
balance quality with the need and desire to scale and
then scale globally? In these types of businesses where it's
low margin, high complexity, you really have to figure out
what your unit of business is. You know, for us,
(07:40):
that was a city. So in order to before going
to seven thousand or ten thousand cities globally, we made
one city work. And after city one worked, we made
city to work. And after we started getting higher and
higher confidence that we can make baskets of cities work
irrespect of the geographies or what you know, the customer
situation look like, or what the merchant makeup was. Then
(08:02):
we gained the confidence to actually roll out everywhere. Then
came the pandemic. Um Brian Chesky has said the pandemic
was like a torpedo for Airbnb. Was it like the
opposite for Doorda? It was like the biggest wave behind
her back, which you know, had the ability to break us,
and and and almost did because we grew two x
(08:26):
in two weeks. We went from a singular US restaurant
delivery business that's what you and I would be talking
about in to today five businesses in twenty seven countries.
You know, much more than just restaurants and and so
all of that was created in the last two years.
Georges went public middle of the pandemic, and I remember
(08:47):
actually you were coming on Bloomberg and the price doubled
at the open, and we were coming out of obviously
terrible economic times. You know, the depths of the pandemic.
What do they feel like when you know you're going
on into the world starting to sell to public investors
and the price just doubles. It was certainly very exciting.
It was exhilarating. You know, it was the first time
that you know, our company went public, the first time
(09:09):
that I had ever undergone any of those types of
experiences before. But at that, you know, in the back
of my head at you know, it was that saying
that you're never as good or as bad as they
say you are, and so just remember that. So tease
that out for me a little bit, because the big
question is how much do customers keep ordering out in
a high inflation environment, how much long term you know,
(09:30):
sustainability and growth is there. Really, Even though Covid is
now effectively sustained and we understand how to live with it,
customers are continuing to order Those that joined us during
the pandemic, they're still ordering out about the same rights
as those who joined us before the pandemic. And that's
because eating out and getting things delivered are pretty complimentary.
(09:51):
On the second point around inflation, you know, I can
say then the last sixty years, and looking at the data,
spend in restaurants and engross have only declined in two
of those sixty years, including high inflationary times, much higher
than what we observe today. And so what I think
I take um, you know, solacen, even though I see
the fact that there is high inflation, is that customers
(10:14):
are going to continue spending on food, and our job
is to bring greater and greater affordability. More broadly, the
economy is in a tough position. Your competitors have announced
layoffs and hiring freezes and slow downs. Is door dash
considering any of these? And I think we've been fortunate
mostly because most of our investments that happened during the
pandemic really were meant to build new businesses, and those
(10:37):
new businesses have continued to grow. New businesses, you know,
beyond restaurants in categories like grocery, convenience, um or retail,
new businesses overseas. You know, we announced a large acquisition
Involt where that really helped double our overall addressable market
to seven million people. New businesses and building an advertising business,
new businesses, expanding our services and building a platform to
(11:00):
help businesses build their own digital operations. Do you see
dortosh is more of a super app of the future
or is it something different? Well, I see Doortash as
really solving two problems. You know. Problem one is how
do we bring incremental demand to all the physical businesses
as they kind of figure out their own digital in
house capabilities. And the second problem we're trying to solve
(11:20):
is bring tools to these businesses. There's still a lot
of competition and delivery. Who do you think survives the
delivery wars? Who doesn't and why? Well, delivery is a
scale economies game. You know, at the end of the day,
you can survive even doing deliveries. From a singular story,
you know, there's still mom and pop pizza shops and
Chinese restaurants that do their own delivery. Do you see
(11:41):
dortash as a challenger to like Walmart, Amazon, Well, I
see doortash Um, you know, as a champion of local
businesses and physical businesses. I don't think that a world
in which we just get what we want to buy
or consume for a few places is a world that
again is as worth enjoying living in it. For our
(12:03):
job is to make sure that all of these businesses,
all of the millions of physical businesses globally, can continue
to compete. I do a lot of door dash helps
me be a working mom whenever I interview you. I
get pings from dashers and some of them say they
don't get paid enough. Some of them seem pretty angry.
What's your response to them. We want the local economy
(12:26):
to grow and to thrive. That includes dashers. We have
three million dashers that come to the platform every single quarter,
and so it's really important to me what they say.
And it's in fact why you know the company myself included,
we still Dash do deliveries. In other words, once a month.
You still do deliveries once a month. It's why we
have a Dasher Community Council that we started three four
(12:46):
years ago. Now, I want to see one of your
memos after a delivery? Are you like sending notes? I'm texting.
It's not even after the delivery. I'm texting, you know,
not texting while I'm driving, but texting after after I
complete the order from your deliver rais what have you learned? Everything?
All of the details, everything from you know, pay considerations,
um UM, everything from UM operations at a store. You
(13:09):
know which stores are a bit faster in their operations
or more consistent, which stores are are less consistent. Where
do you find the last parking space? In downtown San Francisco. UM,
all of these details matter. They matter for efficiency, they
matter for driver pay, they matter for merchant earnings. And
so as a result, you know, what I say to
(13:31):
dashers is please continue to talk to me. I'm just
Tony at door Dash, and we're always trying to, you know,
make things better. We're not saying that we're perfect, but
when we look at um, you know the data that
we've collected, you know, the average dasher is making an
hour nationwide when they're on when they're doing deliveries and
so and most ashes are pretty satisfied. So door Dash
(13:52):
has been expanding internationally. Sounds like you're on the road
a lot. I'm on the road. I am on the
road u as Canada, Australia, at Japan, where elsewhere? Next? Germany,
you know, Israel, Finland, UM, a lot of the Nordics. UM. So,
so we're in we're in twenty seven countries, UM and
and and a lot of that is run by you know,
(14:14):
the Volts team that we were lucky to partner with.
Beyond volt How are you thinking about M and A.
Are there any verticals or areas in particular where you
might be interested in acquiring. You know, we have five businesses,
the US restaurants business, the new Categories business with a
focus on comedians and grocery non US international twenty seven countries,
are B two B business, and our ads business. So
(14:34):
we have quite a full plate on M and A. Specifically,
it's a high bar. M and A. I think sometimes
looks a lot better on paper than can be achieved
in reality. And I think it's because you're talking about,
at the end of the day, combining human organizations, not
just businesses or products or lines on a spreadsheet. I
think you have to deliver upon that promise, and so
(14:56):
for us the bar isn't just does it add to
our business, but does it a actually add to our culture.
You've been piloting rapid delivery, right, rapid delivery, But rapid
delivery seems to be contracting. What are you seeing in
your pilots? Is this some where you think you'll expand
or no? So I think customers are always going to
have expectations that go in one direction, right. I don't
think we're going to want things delivered more slowly over time,
(15:20):
or at higher prices or with less selection. Our core
use case right now is lunch and dinner, which is
highly repetitive, highly profitable, which allows us to invest in
things like fast deliveries. You bought Chowbotics last year but
shut it down. This is robotics, robotic kiosks, right. Um,
I'm curious how you're thinking about AI and um, you
(15:42):
know Uber shut down it's self driving stuff. Then they've
started it back up. Um, you know, how are you
thinking about AI and moonshots and some of this, you know,
potential new technology and how it could help door dash
or not? Like is it is it just not ready
for prime time when it comes to platform shifts or
new technology use AI, autonomy, you know, other types of technologies.
(16:04):
I tend to like to make the investment. I think
that's a more appropriate choice to not miss the shift. However,
I think it's very important to get the pacing right.
I still think that the merits behind what you know,
we were trying to do in partnership with the Chabotics team,
was was the right idea in which we can help
restaurants effectively build you know, a cheaper cost product. That's
(16:30):
ultimately what we were trying to do, but we weren't
ready yet with the technology. You recently joined Metas board.
What's it like working with Mark Zuckerberg. It's been fantastic,
you know, it's been a terrific learning experience, you know,
learning from Mark all the way to the incredible management
team at that company. It's has a broad mandate of
(16:51):
different products and as well as initiatives, and it's been
a privilege. Facebook and that are very controversial platform. Um,
there's you know, controversy about whether Facebook is really good
for the world, whether Facebook should have as much power
as it should. How do you think about that? And
how are you advising Mark about how to use that power.
With great power comes great responsibility. And I think Facebook
(17:14):
has a lot of influence UM and met as you know,
different properties as as you know, I'm sure you cover
you know, served billions of people you know, every single day,
and and and that that that's an enormous privilege and
an enormous responsibility that they take incredibly seriously. Like should
any company be more powerful than multiple governments combined? I
don't think I see it, you know, exactly that way, right,
(17:37):
because it's still a contract between between you know, the
company and its users. I think what's important for men
to do and they're doing this absolutely is how do
we set the guard rails, you know, to make it
fair safe for everyone? And this is very, very very difficult.
You're also an investor a number of different startups. One
(17:59):
of them is I'll yes, Web three company, any plans
to accept crypto, any plans for DoorDash to accept crypto.
Crypto right now is going through a period where it's
trying to, you know, figure out what's next in terms
of its use case. You know, I think everyone myself included,
very bullish on the technology of what the blockchain enables.
(18:20):
What do you think could be the future of blockchain
technology in food delivery and delivery in general. Well, I
I don't know if it's going to get applied directly,
you know, to food or or or to delivery. I mean,
I think, you know, it absolutely has the potential to
create a new economic infrastructure, right and economic structure that
(18:41):
can really serve as the basis for new banking systems
um um in etcetera. And so I think that's something
more that's tangential to the world of delivery. Obviously, payments
is one part of of what we do, but it's
not the central thing. So we're gonna do a little
rapid fire, a little quicker fun questions. Favorite food I've
ordered from eleven d different doorsh restaurants, So I actually
(19:06):
like to try everything. Your business, idol. There are people
in retail that I've admired. You know, the people that
founded um everything from Walmart to Costco, UM, the team
in Amazon, you know, in e commerce, the team UM
Elon Musk and what he's trying to do. What about
Elon must buying Twitter? If he has time to to
(19:29):
to run a third company, I think that'd be fantastic
for the world. You grew up in Illinois, you live
in California. You like basketball? Ye, favorite team Warriors. I
grew up in the golden days of Michael Jordan's you
know Scottie Pippen and and actually you know both the
early nineties as well as the later nineties in which
(19:51):
they won three in a row. I'm still a Bulls diehard,
even though we're in a rock patch right now. I
wo you also like to run. You run marathons? Well,
I don't run marathons today, so just to be clear,
but I do run every day. So that's been my sanctuary,
if you will, for the past ten years, Okay, you're
still pretty young. How do you think having kids has
changed you as a leader? You know, I think kids
(20:14):
are amazing in that they're experiencing the world for the
first time, being able to listen versus to you know,
talk at or to dictate an opinion. You know. I
think that's been, you know, a big lesson. I think
the second one is the power of curiosity. You know, kids,
especially my kids at their ages of two and four,
(20:36):
are asking the question why a lot, and I think
it's the best question, and it's so hard to answer
because you know, it requires clarity of thinking on everything,
on the most basic things, too more complicated things. How
has being an Asian American CEO impacted your experience? Well,
I think being an Asian growing up where I was
(21:00):
the only Asian um and that was kind of my
experience in Illinois certainly had a big experience and where
um it very directly. You know, um, I saw firsthand,
you know, whether it was bullying or discrimination. But but
I think if I were more broadly classify that to
the privileged position that I'm in today, I'm still a
(21:22):
minority in the sense that there aren't as many Asian
American CEOs or founders as maybe founders from other backgrounds,
And so I think it's that reminder to you know,
one always recognized that. And then I think, secondly to
always keep the underdog mentality. Do you think you faced
more challenges than others because Asian American CEOs are so
(21:44):
under represent Asian Americans are underrepresentative in leadership roles in
tech full stop? I can't say that, um, you know,
for me personally in building door dash was that the experience?
But look, I think it's your your writing calling out
when I look around me and when I look at
especially public company UM founder CEO as well, hey there
(22:05):
aren't that many be when you start filtering for you know,
those from Asian descent, it's a it's a much much
smaller list. And so I take that with you know,
great pride. I also take it with great responsibility really
and again remembering to invest in those who maybe don't
come from privileged backgrounds, giving them an equal shot at it,
(22:26):
and to always to stay hungry. You change your name
to Tony when you moved to the U S. You're
five years old, after Tony Danza, who was the star
of Who's the Boss. Correct. I loved that. I did
you know, no one could pronounce my Chinese name, and
so I said, okay, well let's just make it easier.
And so I walked with my dad to the immigration
(22:48):
office and legally changed my name. Did life change? Did
it feel like life changed? After that? It felt a
lot easier to say, Hi, I'm Tony, UM. What's it
like being the boss? Now? Okay, Honestly, I think I
don't see myself that way, and and I recognize that
that's probably not how others view me. But I really
(23:09):
view myself as a teammate. And you know, for me,
I think it's trying to make that actually true, make
the reality of how I feel true to the perception
that maybe others have of me as the boss, and
and making that distance shorter and shorter. Bloombrook Studio One
(23:39):
Point I was produced by Lauren Ellis and edited by
Matthew Soto. I'm Emily Chang, your host and executive producer.
Thanks for listening. The Sad Shad sh
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