May 20, 2025 • 42 mins
Intermodal demand will likely remain volatile from the start-and-stop trade policy coming out of Washington. International demand may get a boost following the US and China lowering their tariffs on one another as part of the announced 90-day truce. Shippers may start to rush to fill warehouses at lower duties. This will help mitigate the drag on domestic intermodal demand created by lower diesel prices. In this Talking Transports podcast, Anne Reinke, president and CEO of the Intermodal Association of North America (IANA), joins Lee Klaskow, Bloomberg Intelligence senior transportation and logistics analyst, to share her insights about the state of the industry against this uncertain backdrop. Reinke also discusses legislative priorities, combating fraud, market-share opportunities and how her career in transports was sparked by boredom.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi everyone, this is Lee Clasgow and we're Talking Transports.
Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host,
Lee Clascow, senior Freight, transportation and logistics analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence,
Bloomberg's end house research arm of almost five hundred analysts
and strategists around the globe. Before diving in a little
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(00:31):
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Speaker 2 (00:49):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now onto our episode We're delighted to have with us
today and Ranky the CEO and President of the Intermodal
Association of North America or AYANA, position she's held since
September of twenty twenty four, and join Diana following four
years as President and CEO of the Transportation Intermediaries Association
(01:10):
or TIA, the leading advocate for three pls prior to
her tenure at TIA. She spent two years as Deputy
Assistant Secretary with the US Department of Transportation and sixteen
years with CSX.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Welcome to Talking Transports.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And thank you Lee, so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Great. So Diana is a trade organization.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Can you give us some details about your members and
you know kind of what your mission is?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Sure? So the mission is to grow the intermodal market
share and to advocate on and educate and provide any
kind of resources to our intermodal members. And so those
in the audience who don't know what intermodal means, because
I found that much of America does not that the
(02:00):
is the transfer of cargo freight in a container from
a vessel to a truck to a train. And so
our members are those ocean going vessels, those drayage trucks,
those Class one and short line railroads. Uh. And we
(02:21):
have the chassis providers, we have the third party logistics folks,
and all the other vendors and such who are in
the intermodal ecosystem as they.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Say, right, And for those that want to learn more,
we've had a lot of those ecosystem companies and managers
on the podcast. So go back and be sure to
check out some of that if you want, if you
want to learn more. And you know, also there's two
types of intermodal, just for since we're educating the folks
out there.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
There's international and there's domestic.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Domestic is it originates on a truck and then it
ends on a truck in the middle parts of the
railroad and international, as an mentioned, you know, starts on
a ship and comes to a port and then moves
across into the supply chains either directly onto a rail
than a.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Truck or a truck rail truck. So intermodal. That is
intermodal in a nutshell.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So there it is. We educated everybody. Now we can
just say goodbye.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I don't want you to go yet. Yeah, yeah, not yet.
Le no no.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
And so this is a relatively new role for you,
is it? What's the biggest thing I guess you've learned
in the role since starting Aana.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, this is maybe a commonality between my time at
TIA and my time at DIANA. I am succeeding at
Ayana a woman, Jony Casey, who was there for twenty
seven years. The organization is thirty four years old. At TIA,
I succeeded a gentleman, Bob Woltman, who had been there
(03:53):
for twenty years, and that organization was a little bit older.
I think we celebrated our forty fifth anniversary of five
recall while I was there. So AnyWho, what does this
say about me? I am here to provide a new
perspective and I'm delighted to do so. What I have
found is our members are very very good about knowing
(04:13):
each other and knowing the business. And what my challenge
will be is to grow it by being more externally facing.
So whether that's on Capitol Hill, or whether that's through
public relations, or whether that's through new and mainstream media.
That is where we sort of feel like we need
to take the organization.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Or going onto award winning podcast like Talking.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Transports or exactly, this is where it all starts.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Fantastic. So you mentioned Washington. So you're a trade group,
so obviously you do some lobbying. What are the big
priorities for AANA and Washington right now?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Well, you're going to be shocked about this lead, but
the organization did not actually do much lobbying until two
years ago. And we have an outside lobbyist who just
registered this year. Because the board at that time. Our
chair is Trevor Ash you may know him. He is
currently the chair. Heath that he and the board members
(05:11):
decided we needed to do a better job of advocating
for ourselves on Capitol Hill and letting that world know
us better, because how do you get into the conversation
if you're not at the dinner table, as they say, so,
we now have started lobbying. We do have congressional priorities.
Much of that is your sort of kind of bread
(05:34):
and butter stuff, for example, preserving the independent contractor model, which,
as you may or may not know, eighty percent of
the draage drivers are independent contractors, meaning they do not
have an employer. So we were delighted to see last
week that the Trump administration had decided to pause enforcement
(05:56):
of the Biden era rule, which we believed may it
much easier to be declared an employee as opposed to
an independent contractor, and that has a negative impact on
that workforce who honestly don't want to have an employer.
They want to work for themselves. So we'll see where
(06:16):
that goes, but that was a positive sign last week.
I don't know if you want me to pause there
and then before I launch into the other things we're
working on.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
No, Actually, I was very surprised the fact that you
said you guys didn't do much lobbying two years, because
I didn't really know what trade organizations did outside of,
you know, advocating for themselves on Washington.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So that's pretty pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And just also for anyone that's listening that's a Bloomberg customer,
we actually have AANA data on the terminal.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's monthly volume data.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
You can see that at BI space r AI L
for birail. Anyway, that's that's the commercial that we'll add
in the middle of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So and so, yeah, please tell us what is it?
What are the other things that you guys are looking at.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
You have had a number of folks on lead talking
about cargo theft that has affected the intermodal community dramatically,
specifically on the railroad. But also you know, we have
three pails and imcs who you've had on before, who
are talking a lot about fraud and the sort of
spoofing and fishing that have afforded a lot of criminals
(07:21):
and opportunity to steal, you know, under false pretenses. So
we are supportive of legislation that would seek to a
penalize those criminals by providing more resources at the federal
level or just providing, for example, the FMCSA the kind
of stick to to really penalize those folks who are
(07:44):
fraudulent actors, and also creating a multi modal federal you know,
private sector intelligence gathering task force, a fraud task force.
Because you know, I like I've said this a couple
of times, I liken it too. After nine to eleven,
when the railroads developed the Transportation Security Ops Center the TSOC,
(08:09):
which is now housed within USDOT, that was the first
example of a private sector taking sort of you know,
something that would be helpful, having intelligence from the public sector,
whatever the threat level was, whatever the assessment level was,
and you know, providing the private sector actors to help that.
We think that could be an excellent analog to what
(08:31):
we do today as a release to cargo theft, because
it's not just one entity that can solve for this. Obviously,
it's a lot of collaboration, both private and public. So
we're we're hopeful that those two bills could progress their
bipartisan which is unusual these days. So we're hopeful about that.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right, Yeah, I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So you know, if you guys create this task force,
obviously your members have are various types of companies with
different balance sheets and financial situation.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So like, I guess who pays for that?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Is something that your members would pay for and then
the federal government would help subsidize.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Is that well, so in this particular case, it would
actually be paid for by federal tax dollars because it
would be operated by the Feds. We would just be
able to contribute to it in terms of our own
intelligence and our own information. We have at Ayana a
Cargo Theft Task Force obviously a volunteer position where we
(09:35):
are developing our own best practices as well as intelligence
gathering and education. That itself is something that our members
have been clamoring for for the past two years. Again, Lee,
this has been sort of gripped from the headlines, as
you know, for a couple of years, and so we
were able to establish that this year to provide at
least a forum for our folks to get together and
(09:56):
talk about, well, how can we improve this and what
are be seeing? So, you know, are we going to
solve for it this year? No? But as my old
Boss said, if we can provide a lot of heat,
light and thunder towards those bad actors who are stealing
and you know, have absolutely no remorse and are looking
(10:17):
to gather as much as twenty five thousand dollars a
week just by pilfridge and ripping open container doors and
taking out packages. If we can solve you know, a
little bit of heat, light and thunder so that people
feel deterred, that's a great first step.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Right, that makes perfect sense, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So at the time of recording this, we just had
some good news when it comes to tariffs, a de
escalation between the US and China. We'll see where that
goes in a ninety day pause. Obviously tarifs are not
good for intermodal whatsoever. What has been Iada's position on
the Trump's trade policies.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yeah, So it's funny because we just had our business
meeting Lee out in Kansas City and Larry Gross, who
you mentioned, you know, does our data analysis for intermodal data,
was out there and he said, I love Larry Gross.
How can you not love Larry Gross? He said, you know,
I was really optimistic until April second. Everything was looking
(11:19):
great until April second, So yeah, there has been an impact.
What we have been outwardly, you know, outspoken about, in particular,
was that section three on one China shipbuilding proposal, which
would have you know, levy a fee against a Chinese
vessel for every port of call. Now obviously you know
(11:39):
that's been amended, and now there's comments on the docket
for you know, a twenty to tariff on containers made
in China. And as you may or may not know,
you do know Glee because you know everything. The domestic
intermodal containers, the fifty three footers are only made in China.
There there are no dem stick manufacturers that those containers. Now,
(12:02):
the problem, of course is that because freight volumes have
been in a slump for two years, they're not a
whole lot of people buying containers right now, right, So
that will depend if we are more outwardly spoken on that.
But we were part of this National Retail Federation, you know,
conglomeration who spoke out against Section three oh one ship building.
(12:25):
We have information on our website that would lead you
to believe that we're very, very concerned about the uncertainty
that tariffs render our businesses At this point, will we
be more outspoken than that? You know, I think if
we're continuing to have a pause as we are with
most of the countries and now announced as you said
with China, I think we can work perhaps not as
(12:48):
outwardly critical and perhaps just behind the scenes. But we'll
see how that goes.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Right understood, And it's interesting with the Chinese built chips
from the US trade representatives that those those those.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Fees that they want to enact. It's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So like Maris said on their earnings call, that they
pretty much can swap out their their fleet, so the
Chinese made ships that they do own or operate just
won't come to the US, so go in other trades.
And the podcast that we have out recently with Norton Hamish,
who is the president of a Starbuck, a major dryball carrier,
(13:26):
he didn't think it was a big deal either, just
they could just swap their ships out. I guess it's
really going to be impactful for those large fleets that
have predominantly their fleets Chinese, Chinese made, which is the
majority of I mean those shipyards, Chinese shipyards are the
majority of it's where the majority of ships come from.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So anyway, just interesting times.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And that's why I think we see so many companies
who've had three sets of outlooks or two sets of
outlooks as to how the rest of the year is
going to go, because it really is so dependent on
our trade profile and what we're what the administration, this
administration is planning to do. I mean, the fact that
we have a deal with UK, the fact that we
paused with China. These are all good things because right
(14:13):
now you probably already saw there's there are thirty percent
down in the Port of La Long Beach, so there
will be it will be tough times for the US market.
So I hope that there's a gradual awakening and recognition.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Of that, Yeah, we're giving ourselves some medicine for a
self inflicted wound.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It's very very interesting times.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Are there any other adding, other regulatory priorities that you
know you're focused on. And I'm just curious because the TIA,
that's it's it's mostly freight brokers, right, the TIA, Right,
And I know you're not there anymore, you don't speak
for them, but is there was there much? Is there
much overlap in terms of priorities in Washington? Between the
two organizations. Yeah, I would say what's important to you,
(14:58):
not necessarily working together, but what's import sure.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, so there obviously have been leaders on cargo theft
and continue to do so. Their membership is eighty percent
truck facing, so they have a little bit more interest
in the goings on at the FMCSA compared to our membership.
But we do care about what happens at the FMCSA.
We wrote comments against this broker transparency stuff which they
(15:26):
reopened and now who knows what is going to end
up happening what the disposition of that is. But one
of the last things I'll mention is that we also
are are we're asked for our commentary and priorities on
surface transportation reauthorization and as you know, the Highway Bill
as they used to call it, is reauthorized every six years,
and there's an opportunity for a feeding frenzy for all
(15:48):
kinds of transportation stakeholders. For us, we want there to
be permitting reform because it just takes too long for
a project to get developed. As you know, would love
to have project delivery reform so that they're you know,
the applications themselves weren't two hundred pages and didn't lead
to a six hundred app you know, six hundred page
(16:09):
application from from the actual applying party. And we would
love to see intermodal projects receives some of the grant funding.
Now what happens to those grants is an open question
because there's not a lot of money and the Trump
administration has not indicated they want to spend a lot
of money.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But we'll see, gotcha. So I guess you know.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
So you said you guys were coming up your business
planning meeting. What do you guys do during that besides
you know, eat, eat, and drink too much? What what do
you guys do during this time?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
You can drink too much? I am a very disciplined individual.
We have This is where our committee structure really is showcased.
So we have, just like many a trade associations, you
have committees of like minded, interested people who are working
on the kind of sticky, thorny weedy issues. So those
(17:00):
things that don't make the headlines, but are you know,
kind of nagging problems are of interest to the bulk
of our membership. So for example, we have our Operations committee.
They get together, they talk about things that could improve
our efficiencies. For example, we have our maintenance or repair
committee and they talk about how, you know, rotability issues
(17:22):
like the responsibility for who you know, inspecting the chassis
and how to make that process better and that kind
of thing. And so those folks get together, they talk
to each other, and so really it's an education session
for those folks who are not on the committee. They
can listen in and hear how these committees are talking
about the kind of things that matter to them. But
(17:43):
it's also an opportunity for everyone to get together in network.
And as far as I could tell, maybe they're just
blowing smoke, but I think they had a really positive
time because sometimes you feel like you're acting alone. And
so when you have people who are brought together and
you think, oh wait, my problems are not just my problems.
My problems are shared and there is a solution, that's
an important thing that a trade association can provide.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So coming off these meetings, you know, what is the
state of the North America intermodial market.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Well, we're concerned how about that. As you know this,
truck spot rates were pretty flat to sluggish. And so
when truck spot rates are flat to sluggish, that has
a negative impact on intermodal. Whether that will change, Lee,
(18:33):
you may know better than I. Right now, it doesn't
look like it will just because of this, you know,
thirty percent decrease in volumes coming in from the ports,
for example, but that has an impact on intermodial. So
you know, when we talk about growing the intermodal mission,
growing the innomoential market market share, we have to do
(18:55):
it in a couple of ways. One is to persuade
those who only truck load that intermodal is a competitive,
you know, competitive alternative. And two is to educate people
who've never even heard of intermodal. And so that's it
can be challenging if this is anecdotal. If people have
(19:16):
a negative experience with intermodal, they'll say I'll never use
intermodal again, Whereas if they have a negative experience with
the truck, they'll say, I'll just pick another truck. Right,
So it's not exactly a fair distinction. But what we
need to prove is that we have equally as good
service better rates. I can't really talk about rates, as
you know, because of anti trust concern but but you
know what I mean, we have to show that we
have a competitive product, and so that is incumbent on
(19:39):
us to do. We have to educate people about it,
and we have to show that we're you know, we're
a really good alternative.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Right and you mentioned, you know, spot rates.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
You know, my crystal brawl right now is cracked and foggy,
and so like you know, it's it's pretty pretty tough
to tell in the beginning of the ear is extremely
bullish in the contractual mark in the spot market. You know,
you just don't know what's going to happen from the
day to day with what's coming out of Washington, you.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Know, but.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So you know, you mentioned spot rates, So like I guess,
also fuel prices come into play, you know when you're
looking at intermodal versus trucking. Because in a lower fuel environment,
which we're currently heading down with oil where it is today,
you know, that's not necessarily good for intermodal, correct, No, I.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Mean, if you think about railroads, they used to say
they get four hundred and eighty five miles per gallon
or some such stat And so if there's a high
fuel priced environment, then that benefits intermodal for sure. But
if we're in a lower environment, no, I mean, so again,
you have flat spot rates and then you have a
lower fuel prices. That makes certainly international intermodal dicey. Larry.
(20:50):
I will not try to speak for Larry's wisdom because
Larry's the wisest. But Larry has a little bit more
confidence in domestic intermodal this year. He doesn't think it
will be impacted. But you know, we have to see.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Okay, and so you know, just you can't talk rates,
I can talk rates. So like just for.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Those listening out there, intermodal tends to be cheaper than truckload,
you know, at the discount you know, our rule of thumb.
Whether it's right or wrong, I'm really not sure, but
it's usually like anywhere between five to thirty percent cheaper
than trucking alone. And the trade off is that you know,
truck can go from point A to point B, they
can go to door to door, so quote unquote it
(21:29):
might provide a little service. So service on intermodal is
really tied to rail fluidity, right, And I don't know,
can you talk about what your rail partners are doing
or your rail members are doing to you know, improve
their service. So the intermodial products of better product.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yeah, so you you saw the twenty twenty one was
a bad year for the railroads and it was a
lot of combinations of things. You know, they furload a
lot of people and then just as the surge started
happening with freight, there is this precision scheduled railroading, which
we don't need to comment on exhaustively, but it does
impact the operations and certainly it can become snarled while
(22:10):
they tried to implement PSR. So that was that was very,
very challenging for the railroads. The service metrics now are
dramatically improved, and to a railroad, I would say, you know,
CSX has acknowledged in their earnings releases that they have
the challenge of the Baltimore the Key Bridge, and then
(22:33):
the Howard Street tunnel work and the Hurricane Helen in
North Carolina. So yeah, there's still some operational challenges, but
by and large work the product is enormously improved. And
so if they are continuing to put in an investment,
if they are continuing to scrutinize their operations, then that
helps us dramatically.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
We've seen bidly speaking network fluidity, so we measure it
by train speeds and dwell times both both improving, you know,
and that actually data is available in the Bloomberg turtable
as well.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
B I Rail, I'd be sure to tune in. So,
you know, you talked about winning share.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Are there parts of the market that you have more
of an opportunity? Is it really domestic intermodial, is it
cross border intermodial, whether it's between US and Mexico, US
and Canada, maybe even Canada to Mexico. So are there
pockets of opportunity that are more than others?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Well, I will say this, we're really really excited about
what's going on cross border with Mexico. It's become and
you know this from all all kinds of logistics providers.
They're looking at Mexico for any number of reasons. But
we're excited about that because we've seen a really the
first quarter of this year, we've seen I think it
(23:54):
was something like eighteen percent growth in cross border traffic
and that's a potential resource for the future. Obviously, tariffs,
you know, continue to be a question mark there, but
that is a great potential potential future growth opportunity for
intermodal that we look at in terms of other pockets
(24:17):
of growth you know, I think for US, it's really
how do we how do we convert those folks who
are convinced that truck is the only way to go
with providing a truck like service.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And your members it's Canada, US and Mexico or just Canada.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
US, Canada, US and Mexico.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, okay, And so you know, are there regions that
are have I guess more opportunities, whether it's Canada, US
Mexico or you know, in the east of the US,
west of the US, or are there certain areas that
just have more opportunities for whatever the reason is.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Well, so the East gets challenged when.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Eastern US, yes.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
The East, sorry, not the east of the world. The
East gets gets challenged when truck rates are low because
it's very, very hard to compete with truck on the
East Coast because you just don't have those long distances.
As you know, they are a little less affected by
the Chinese traffic, the you know, the the like Long
(25:26):
Beach and La Long Beach is but they are they
are impacted if truck rates are low. So on the
West Coast, they're highly impacted by imports going down, but
can be more competitive to truck because they're going to
be longer distances. So in terms of the future, look
we got to go. We can't just look at one
particular marketplace. I think we have to improve it all large,
(25:48):
which is the whole point of having a public relations
campaign is to really educate those folks who don't know
enough about intermodal as an option to recognize why it matters.
And so we have to talk to the shippers who
are currently either have used it before and don't use
it any longer, or the shippers who've never used it
and don't even think to use it, And so that
(26:11):
is it is a challenge as to what is the
message that resonates the most. We had a kind of
tentative or not tentative, what's the word I'm looking for whatever,
the kind of initial there we go, initial analysis that
said that they're looking for reliability, and of course they are,
of course they're looking for reliability. Obviously price matters too,
(26:31):
but you really want reliability. I mean, this is what
we found after COVID. People just want things when they
want things, and there's a greater expectation that if you
order it today, you'll get it tomorrow or in the
next couple of days. It just is we've changed forever
how we anticipate what we order, how we anticipate what,
you know, what comes to us. And so if railroads
(26:51):
are going to be part of that, then we also
have intermodals can be part of that. Then we have
to change those expectations on our end.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Too, right. And you know, so you guys, do you
know you're doing lobbying, you do other trade group stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
You also you have a like a couple of conferences
or a major conference every year.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Do you want to talk about that?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
We do lead? Haven't you spoken it before?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
A long time? A long time ago. I wasn't asked
back for quite some time.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
What you do do you think?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I thought I did an okay job, Chris?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know what because Larry Gross is there and like
I just yet, I can't I can't outshine him.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
So he took all the limelight. Well, yes, we have
a big annual conference in September in Long Beach. It's
in Long Beach till twenty thirty one, So book your
hotel rooms now. But it wolf see if we can
get you back lead. But that's that is about everything
that anybody is interested in terms of intermodal all the
(27:51):
all the bodies are there. They're all there. Everybody in
the intermodal marketplace is at that conference, and they're doing
deals and they're you know, getting business, and we try
to provide a compelling forum so that they can actually
learn more and you know, get educated. So that's our responsibility,
but also just providing them networking opportunities as well, and
(28:14):
then we have this expo hall where they can see
the kind of the new stuff. One of the things
you know about TIA Lead that they've done very well
is that they have a technology conference called Technovations. It's like,
should I call TIA and say you should pay me
for all the stuff I've said about you. But one
of the things that I think is going to be
incumbent on us, just going back to what I was
(28:34):
just saying, how we have to convince shippers of choice
that we are an alternative. I think embracing technology even
more so than we are today is going to be
a critical need. And part of it is because of
you know, there's demand for visibility like we just talked about,
and part of it is because of cargo theft, meaning
(28:55):
you have to know where everything is at all times.
But I think that there's a person option that railroads
are old right, because they are. They've been around a
long time. But you know, if we can continue to
focus on bringing it into the technological age, I think
that will be important. And when we'll have young cool
people at our conferences the expo and who doesn't want
(29:16):
young cool people at their conferences? I can't think of anybody,
So that's that's going to be something that will work
on as well. I mean, you're young and Koli, so obviously.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I'm young for a fifty five year old man.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yes, it's all relatives who are speaking before the recording.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So I'm glad you mentioned technology.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
You know what Ziada's position on autonomous truck game, because
obviously it will impact it could impact your your drage
members do do you guys have a position on it
at all?
Speaker 3 (29:51):
We're yeah, we're neutral on it. Here's here's an Ranky's
position on it is that the technology happens whether or
not you take a position on it. And I mean, right, like,
if you think back to any development that's ever happened
in technology there I just read The Box. I'm almost
finished with that book. It's all about the container industry.
(30:13):
And if you recall, it used to be these guys
who would take sacks of flower and they would take
it off the boat and they'd stick it out of
like all that stuff. That doesn't happen anymore. Did they
want that to happen. No, of course they didn't want
that to happen, but it happened. I mean, it's sort
of like, if we can improve autonomous trucking to the
point where it's equally as safe as a truck being driven,
(30:36):
you know, by a driver, then it's very hard to
refute that. I mean the same thing with cruise sides
on the railroad. I don't know if anyone was going
to accept having a pilotless plane. Probably not. But if
you're this sort of technological improvement happens whether we like
it or not. It's just sort of the future of
how we do it. However we you know, get our
(30:59):
minds to accept.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Okay, are there any other technologies that Diana is excited
about outside of you know, you mentioned fraud again for
those listening, not to keep on plugging my own podcast,
but you know, we did one with the Chief Commercial
Officer of Highway, which is a platform that fights trucking frauds,
So you might, if you're interested in fraud and learning
(31:23):
more about that, you might want to go back to
listen to that from a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
But all that being said, are there any other.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Technological advances or developments that are really of interest to
Iana and your members?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
All those technologies that ensure the safety and security of
the container are of interest, and those, as you know,
are getting more and more sophisticated. Whether it's a smart
container some of our members have invested in smart containers,
whether it's having temperature detection so that you ensure that
(31:58):
the if it's you know, durated freight, that it doesn't
exceed or go below its desired temperature. Whether it's those
detectors that you can stick on a container door so
that can sense when a container a door is opening
and whether it should or should not and can cause
an alert. All of those things I think are kind
of exciting, and I think we're just getting towards like that.
(32:22):
To me is where we have so much runway in that,
and it's kind of exciting to think about. And one
other thing that I haven't mentioned about Diana, which is
pretty neat and this is so weedy, you're going to
love it, Lee, But we administer the UIIA. Do you
know what that is? No, stop the stars, Stop the stars.
(32:45):
It's a uniform intermtal interchange agreement. And what that does
is it provides a rules of the road when our
members are handling containers. And so you have chassis providers
who are members of the UIIA, you have railroads, you
(33:05):
have the ocean going vessels, you have the drayage companies,
and they all are part of this agreement that essentially
then they know how to operate. I think that's enormously
helpful for our efficiency. But I think it's also helpful.
We haven't even begun to really scope out what we
could use the UIIA beyond what it's being used for.
(33:28):
I mean, we've already our really smart team at Ayana
have developed a number of different things that connect with UIIA.
For example, the driver database. The driver database means that
if you are a draage driver and you're in the
driver database, you the railroad or you the chass provider,
you the vessel guys can check that database to make
(33:50):
sure that draage driver is already registered and has you know,
insurance and has the CDL and is who he says
he is. Well, that's really enormously helpful too in terms
of staving off fraud. It wasn't the reason to do it,
but that's sort of something that we did and so
our it folks and the guys and gals who work
on uii A every day are thinking constantly of how
better things, you know, even better and more improvements. For example,
(34:13):
they're testing out the equipment return location, so where equipment
gets returned to. That's helpful for folks who own the
equipment or need the equipment, having some sort of GPS
positioning system where you know where that equipment has been
returned to. But that's pretty great. So they're testing that
out and that's something that we're excited about as well.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Awesome and thanks for educating me on the uii A.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, you can go to the intermodal dot org website
lead and click on UIA and you're going to learn.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
So much, so much stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I'm still learning. I'm still learning. I've only been on
the job since December. I've still got a lot to learn.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
This episode might have the most self promoting content on
it so so, speaking of which, are there any other
issues that the is focused on as it relates to
freight transportation logistics. You know, is there anything that's top
of uh.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Or on your radar.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Well, you know, we just saw that executive order about
English proficiency, and you know that's that's existing law. They're
just going to enforce it. Right. I don't know what
the impact will be for our community. I think we
need to understand that a little bit better. Obviously we
have as I've just went on and on about we
(35:31):
have cross border traffic. So that to me is going
to be you know, talk with me laterly and we'll
see exactly what the impacts are. I do know I
talked to a WAIDA, the Owner Operators Independent Driver Association
last week, and they're so delighted that this has happened
(35:52):
so to the extent, you know, the owner operators feel
great about it. Good for them. I just don't know
exactly what the impacts will be on our intermodal folk
and you know other things. We have to see what's
going to happen with rail regulation. The railroads will tell
us when and if we need to get engaged on
for example, crew size, whether or not they want. I
know that's litigation still pending on the crew size, two
(36:14):
person crew versus ultimately you know whether or not there
will be one person crew. And so again we're not
engaged on that right now, but may well be if
we were asked to provide support. And then any kind
of economic regulatory stuff is obviously of concern to us
because anything that impedes traffic flows is detrimental to our membership.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And on the English proficiency proficiency topic, you know, Derek
Leathers from Warner on their earnings call, he kind of said,
I think it was more of an estimate that he
thought ten to fifteen percent of the truckers out there
would fail those.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Sort of tests.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
And it's interesting from what I understand, and you can
correct me if I'm totally talking out a line, but
it tends to be dra age where more of that
might might happen. And that's just the the impression that
I was under.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean, you know this about draage, operators are
typically lower barriers to entry, right, It's just a little
bit easier. And so yeah, there's a larger immigrant population
that gets involved in draage. So but not just you know,
not just Hispanic orientation of all kinds, all nations. So yeah,
it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
So when I did the intro, mentioned that, you know,
you started at your career at CSX. I don't know
if that maybe that was your first foray into transports.
How did you get into transportation? Because I find either
you're born into it or you kind of like fall
into it. So how did you get into transports?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yeah? I definitely fell into it. I am a lawyer
who did not like practicing law. How many lawyers do
you know? Like that many? I was one of them,
and so I started. I was working in a law firm.
I felt stultified. I did not feel like I was growing,
so I looked around at other opportunities. There is this
(38:11):
little association called the High Speed Ground Transportation Association. There
were you know, high speed trains, and I essentially said,
do you need anyone to help you? And my boss,
he was one of those guys who like takes on,
you know, projects, He liked to take on projects, so sure,
oh are you? So from there I got into railroads really,
so I was there for a little bit. Then I
(38:32):
went to the AAR of the Association American Railroad CSX
hired me from there and I was at CSX for
sixteen years, and I loved it. It was never a
dull day. I mean, sometimes there is a horrible day
because you have derailments where people get hurt or killed,
but it's you always doing something you feel as vitally
important to American commerce, to the American population, to the
American economy. And you know, I was there for a
(38:55):
long time until obviously we know what happened in twenty
seven and teen with all the stuff which I'm sure
you've all covered up a covered at nauseum about how
the management change and so on and so forth. But
you know, being part of transportation, once you start, it's
very hard to want to stop. It's so interesting to me.
(39:17):
By and large, it's politically neutral. It's not something where
people feel it's not polarizing necessarily. I mean, yeah, they're
always going to be the truck versus railroad fight, or
the shipper versus you know, railroad truck fight or those
kinds of things, but usually everyone needs to get along
because it's so critical to the economy. So I like it.
(39:38):
I'm glad I'm here right.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I think we should settle those fights in a steel
cage match.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
That's yeah, finally get it out for once.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
And you know, you mentioned the box, and a couple
of guests mentioned that book, So if you're interested to
learn more about transportation, you definitely should check that out.
Were there any other books that you might have read
in the past, whether about transportation, you know, management leadership
that is kind of close to your heart.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
So the other book I read that has touched was
I have tried to implement with every job is called
Humble Leadership, and it talks about how humble leadership is
essentially knowing you don't have all the answers, nor should
you as a leader, so you need to surround yourself
with people who can assist, who are experts in their
(40:32):
particular realm, and so having the humility to know that
you cannot solve the problem by yourself or figure out
the issue by yourself. Gosh, I find that enormously freeing
as a leader because it means that you don't just
have to rely on yourself, but you also have a
community of folks who want to assist and want to
(40:53):
help you. And by and large, if you have good
people who work for you, they want to help you
and they want to be you know, talk to if
they have an expertise. So that to me is one
of the most important books. I hope everyone reads it. Really,
I think there are a lot of leaders out there.
It's called Humble Leadership. If I had it in front
of me, I would remember who wrote it, but I don't. Uh.
(41:16):
And there's other parts of the book which you know
memory fads, but that was the most That was the
one that resonated with me the most. But I was
going to say, there are a lot of leaders out
there who they think they have to show like they're
the boss and that they know all the stuff. It
just it can be really demoralizing to your team who
(41:37):
if you don't listen to them.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
And the bad thing about this podcast is it's only audio.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
You should have seen and kind of move around when
she was talking about those those leaders that think they.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Need to.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Like HR puff and stuff, they're HR puffing group show.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
That was such a great show.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Well on the puff and stuff note, and I really
want to thank you for your time and your insights
and you know, and it was definitely educational learn more
about Iyana and all the things that you're doing for
the intermodal industry.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Thank you, Lee. Thanks for having me on. I'm very
glad to see you and maybe we'll get an invitation.
I can't promise anything.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Maybe you'll get into maybe fingers crossed, all right, and
I want to thank you for tuning in. If you
like the episode, please subscribe and leave a review. We've
lined up a number of great guests for the podcast,
so please check back to her conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators,
and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you
want to learn more about the freight transportation markets, check
(42:38):
out our work on the Bloomberg Terminal, at b I.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Go and on social media.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
This is logistically signing off and thanks for talking transports
with me today.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Take care bye,
Hi everyone, this is Lee Clasgow and we're Talking Transports.
Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host,
Lee Clascow, senior Freight, transportation and logistics analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence,
Bloomberg's end house research arm of almost five hundred analysts
and strategists around the globe. Before diving in a little
public service announcement, your support is instrumental to keep bringing
(00:31):
great guests and conversations to you, our listeners, and we
need your support. So please, if you enjoy this podcast,
share it, like it and leave a comment. Also, if
you have any ideas for future episodes or just want
to talk transports, please hit me up on the Bloomberg
terminal or on LinkedIn or Twitter at Logistics.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now onto our episode We're delighted to have with us
today and Ranky the CEO and President of the Intermodal
Association of North America or AYANA, position she's held since
September of twenty twenty four, and join Diana following four
years as President and CEO of the Transportation Intermediaries Association
(01:10):
or TIA, the leading advocate for three pls prior to
her tenure at TIA. She spent two years as Deputy
Assistant Secretary with the US Department of Transportation and sixteen
years with CSX.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Welcome to Talking Transports.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And thank you Lee, so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Great. So Diana is a trade organization.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Can you give us some details about your members and
you know kind of what your mission is?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Sure? So the mission is to grow the intermodal market
share and to advocate on and educate and provide any
kind of resources to our intermodal members. And so those
in the audience who don't know what intermodal means, because
I found that much of America does not that the
(02:00):
is the transfer of cargo freight in a container from
a vessel to a truck to a train. And so
our members are those ocean going vessels, those drayage trucks,
those Class one and short line railroads. Uh. And we
(02:21):
have the chassis providers, we have the third party logistics folks,
and all the other vendors and such who are in
the intermodal ecosystem as they.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Say, right, And for those that want to learn more,
we've had a lot of those ecosystem companies and managers
on the podcast. So go back and be sure to
check out some of that if you want, if you
want to learn more. And you know, also there's two
types of intermodal, just for since we're educating the folks
out there.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
There's international and there's domestic.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Domestic is it originates on a truck and then it
ends on a truck in the middle parts of the
railroad and international, as an mentioned, you know, starts on
a ship and comes to a port and then moves
across into the supply chains either directly onto a rail
than a.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Truck or a truck rail truck. So intermodal. That is
intermodal in a nutshell.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So there it is. We educated everybody. Now we can
just say goodbye.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I don't want you to go yet. Yeah, yeah, not yet.
Le no no.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
And so this is a relatively new role for you,
is it? What's the biggest thing I guess you've learned
in the role since starting Aana.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, this is maybe a commonality between my time at
TIA and my time at DIANA. I am succeeding at
Ayana a woman, Jony Casey, who was there for twenty
seven years. The organization is thirty four years old. At TIA,
I succeeded a gentleman, Bob Woltman, who had been there
(03:53):
for twenty years, and that organization was a little bit older.
I think we celebrated our forty fifth anniversary of five
recall while I was there. So AnyWho, what does this
say about me? I am here to provide a new
perspective and I'm delighted to do so. What I have
found is our members are very very good about knowing
(04:13):
each other and knowing the business. And what my challenge
will be is to grow it by being more externally facing.
So whether that's on Capitol Hill, or whether that's through
public relations, or whether that's through new and mainstream media.
That is where we sort of feel like we need
to take the organization.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Or going onto award winning podcast like Talking.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Transports or exactly, this is where it all starts.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Fantastic. So you mentioned Washington. So you're a trade group,
so obviously you do some lobbying. What are the big
priorities for AANA and Washington right now?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Well, you're going to be shocked about this lead, but
the organization did not actually do much lobbying until two
years ago. And we have an outside lobbyist who just
registered this year. Because the board at that time. Our
chair is Trevor Ash you may know him. He is
currently the chair. Heath that he and the board members
(05:11):
decided we needed to do a better job of advocating
for ourselves on Capitol Hill and letting that world know
us better, because how do you get into the conversation
if you're not at the dinner table, as they say, so,
we now have started lobbying. We do have congressional priorities.
Much of that is your sort of kind of bread
(05:34):
and butter stuff, for example, preserving the independent contractor model, which,
as you may or may not know, eighty percent of
the draage drivers are independent contractors, meaning they do not
have an employer. So we were delighted to see last
week that the Trump administration had decided to pause enforcement
(05:56):
of the Biden era rule, which we believed may it
much easier to be declared an employee as opposed to
an independent contractor, and that has a negative impact on
that workforce who honestly don't want to have an employer.
They want to work for themselves. So we'll see where
(06:16):
that goes, but that was a positive sign last week.
I don't know if you want me to pause there
and then before I launch into the other things we're
working on.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
No, Actually, I was very surprised the fact that you
said you guys didn't do much lobbying two years, because
I didn't really know what trade organizations did outside of,
you know, advocating for themselves on Washington.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So that's pretty pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And just also for anyone that's listening that's a Bloomberg customer,
we actually have AANA data on the terminal.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's monthly volume data.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
You can see that at BI space r AI L
for birail. Anyway, that's that's the commercial that we'll add
in the middle of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So and so, yeah, please tell us what is it?
What are the other things that you guys are looking at.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
You have had a number of folks on lead talking
about cargo theft that has affected the intermodal community dramatically,
specifically on the railroad. But also you know, we have
three pails and imcs who you've had on before, who
are talking a lot about fraud and the sort of
spoofing and fishing that have afforded a lot of criminals
(07:21):
and opportunity to steal, you know, under false pretenses. So
we are supportive of legislation that would seek to a
penalize those criminals by providing more resources at the federal
level or just providing, for example, the FMCSA the kind
of stick to to really penalize those folks who are
(07:44):
fraudulent actors, and also creating a multi modal federal you know,
private sector intelligence gathering task force, a fraud task force.
Because you know, I like I've said this a couple
of times, I liken it too. After nine to eleven,
when the railroads developed the Transportation Security Ops Center the TSOC,
(08:09):
which is now housed within USDOT, that was the first
example of a private sector taking sort of you know,
something that would be helpful, having intelligence from the public sector,
whatever the threat level was, whatever the assessment level was,
and you know, providing the private sector actors to help that.
We think that could be an excellent analog to what
(08:31):
we do today as a release to cargo theft, because
it's not just one entity that can solve for this. Obviously,
it's a lot of collaboration, both private and public. So
we're we're hopeful that those two bills could progress their
bipartisan which is unusual these days. So we're hopeful about that.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right, Yeah, I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So you know, if you guys create this task force,
obviously your members have are various types of companies with
different balance sheets and financial situation.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So like, I guess who pays for that?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Is something that your members would pay for and then
the federal government would help subsidize.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Is that well, so in this particular case, it would
actually be paid for by federal tax dollars because it
would be operated by the Feds. We would just be
able to contribute to it in terms of our own
intelligence and our own information. We have at Ayana a
Cargo Theft Task Force obviously a volunteer position where we
(09:35):
are developing our own best practices as well as intelligence
gathering and education. That itself is something that our members
have been clamoring for for the past two years. Again, Lee,
this has been sort of gripped from the headlines, as
you know, for a couple of years, and so we
were able to establish that this year to provide at
least a forum for our folks to get together and
(09:56):
talk about, well, how can we improve this and what
are be seeing? So, you know, are we going to
solve for it this year? No? But as my old
Boss said, if we can provide a lot of heat,
light and thunder towards those bad actors who are stealing
and you know, have absolutely no remorse and are looking
(10:17):
to gather as much as twenty five thousand dollars a
week just by pilfridge and ripping open container doors and
taking out packages. If we can solve you know, a
little bit of heat, light and thunder so that people
feel deterred, that's a great first step.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Right, that makes perfect sense, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So at the time of recording this, we just had
some good news when it comes to tariffs, a de
escalation between the US and China. We'll see where that
goes in a ninety day pause. Obviously tarifs are not
good for intermodal whatsoever. What has been Iada's position on
the Trump's trade policies.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yeah, So it's funny because we just had our business
meeting Lee out in Kansas City and Larry Gross, who
you mentioned, you know, does our data analysis for intermodal data,
was out there and he said, I love Larry Gross.
How can you not love Larry Gross? He said, you know,
I was really optimistic until April second. Everything was looking
(11:19):
great until April second, So yeah, there has been an impact.
What we have been outwardly, you know, outspoken about, in particular,
was that section three on one China shipbuilding proposal, which
would have you know, levy a fee against a Chinese
vessel for every port of call. Now obviously you know
(11:39):
that's been amended, and now there's comments on the docket
for you know, a twenty to tariff on containers made
in China. And as you may or may not know,
you do know Glee because you know everything. The domestic
intermodal containers, the fifty three footers are only made in China.
There there are no dem stick manufacturers that those containers. Now,
(12:02):
the problem, of course is that because freight volumes have
been in a slump for two years, they're not a
whole lot of people buying containers right now, right, So
that will depend if we are more outwardly spoken on that.
But we were part of this National Retail Federation, you know,
conglomeration who spoke out against Section three oh one ship building.
(12:25):
We have information on our website that would lead you
to believe that we're very, very concerned about the uncertainty
that tariffs render our businesses At this point, will we
be more outspoken than that? You know, I think if
we're continuing to have a pause as we are with
most of the countries and now announced as you said
with China, I think we can work perhaps not as
(12:48):
outwardly critical and perhaps just behind the scenes. But we'll
see how that goes.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Right understood, And it's interesting with the Chinese built chips
from the US trade representatives that those those those.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Fees that they want to enact. It's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So like Maris said on their earnings call, that they
pretty much can swap out their their fleet, so the
Chinese made ships that they do own or operate just
won't come to the US, so go in other trades.
And the podcast that we have out recently with Norton Hamish,
who is the president of a Starbuck, a major dryball carrier,
(13:26):
he didn't think it was a big deal either, just
they could just swap their ships out. I guess it's
really going to be impactful for those large fleets that
have predominantly their fleets Chinese, Chinese made, which is the
majority of I mean those shipyards, Chinese shipyards are the
majority of it's where the majority of ships come from.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So anyway, just interesting times.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And that's why I think we see so many companies
who've had three sets of outlooks or two sets of
outlooks as to how the rest of the year is
going to go, because it really is so dependent on
our trade profile and what we're what the administration, this
administration is planning to do. I mean, the fact that
we have a deal with UK, the fact that we
paused with China. These are all good things because right
(14:13):
now you probably already saw there's there are thirty percent
down in the Port of La Long Beach, so there
will be it will be tough times for the US market.
So I hope that there's a gradual awakening and recognition.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Of that, Yeah, we're giving ourselves some medicine for a
self inflicted wound.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It's very very interesting times.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Are there any other adding, other regulatory priorities that you
know you're focused on. And I'm just curious because the TIA,
that's it's it's mostly freight brokers, right, the TIA, Right,
And I know you're not there anymore, you don't speak
for them, but is there was there much? Is there
much overlap in terms of priorities in Washington? Between the
two organizations. Yeah, I would say what's important to you,
(14:58):
not necessarily working together, but what's import sure.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, so there obviously have been leaders on cargo theft
and continue to do so. Their membership is eighty percent
truck facing, so they have a little bit more interest
in the goings on at the FMCSA compared to our membership.
But we do care about what happens at the FMCSA.
We wrote comments against this broker transparency stuff which they
(15:26):
reopened and now who knows what is going to end
up happening what the disposition of that is. But one
of the last things I'll mention is that we also
are are we're asked for our commentary and priorities on
surface transportation reauthorization and as you know, the Highway Bill
as they used to call it, is reauthorized every six years,
and there's an opportunity for a feeding frenzy for all
(15:48):
kinds of transportation stakeholders. For us, we want there to
be permitting reform because it just takes too long for
a project to get developed. As you know, would love
to have project delivery reform so that they're you know,
the applications themselves weren't two hundred pages and didn't lead
to a six hundred app you know, six hundred page
(16:09):
application from from the actual applying party. And we would
love to see intermodal projects receives some of the grant funding.
Now what happens to those grants is an open question
because there's not a lot of money and the Trump
administration has not indicated they want to spend a lot
of money.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But we'll see, gotcha. So I guess you know.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
So you said you guys were coming up your business
planning meeting. What do you guys do during that besides
you know, eat, eat, and drink too much? What what do
you guys do during this time?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
You can drink too much? I am a very disciplined individual.
We have This is where our committee structure really is showcased.
So we have, just like many a trade associations, you
have committees of like minded, interested people who are working
on the kind of sticky, thorny weedy issues. So those
(17:00):
things that don't make the headlines, but are you know,
kind of nagging problems are of interest to the bulk
of our membership. So for example, we have our Operations committee.
They get together, they talk about things that could improve
our efficiencies. For example, we have our maintenance or repair
committee and they talk about how, you know, rotability issues
(17:22):
like the responsibility for who you know, inspecting the chassis
and how to make that process better and that kind
of thing. And so those folks get together, they talk
to each other, and so really it's an education session
for those folks who are not on the committee. They
can listen in and hear how these committees are talking
about the kind of things that matter to them. But
(17:43):
it's also an opportunity for everyone to get together in network.
And as far as I could tell, maybe they're just
blowing smoke, but I think they had a really positive
time because sometimes you feel like you're acting alone. And
so when you have people who are brought together and
you think, oh wait, my problems are not just my problems.
My problems are shared and there is a solution, that's
an important thing that a trade association can provide.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So coming off these meetings, you know, what is the
state of the North America intermodial market.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Well, we're concerned how about that. As you know this,
truck spot rates were pretty flat to sluggish. And so
when truck spot rates are flat to sluggish, that has
a negative impact on intermodal. Whether that will change, Lee,
(18:33):
you may know better than I. Right now, it doesn't
look like it will just because of this, you know,
thirty percent decrease in volumes coming in from the ports,
for example, but that has an impact on intermodial. So
you know, when we talk about growing the intermodal mission,
growing the innomoential market market share, we have to do
(18:55):
it in a couple of ways. One is to persuade
those who only truck load that intermodal is a competitive,
you know, competitive alternative. And two is to educate people
who've never even heard of intermodal. And so that's it
can be challenging if this is anecdotal. If people have
(19:16):
a negative experience with intermodal, they'll say I'll never use
intermodal again, Whereas if they have a negative experience with
the truck, they'll say, I'll just pick another truck. Right,
So it's not exactly a fair distinction. But what we
need to prove is that we have equally as good
service better rates. I can't really talk about rates, as
you know, because of anti trust concern but but you
know what I mean, we have to show that we
have a competitive product, and so that is incumbent on
(19:39):
us to do. We have to educate people about it,
and we have to show that we're you know, we're
a really good alternative.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Right and you mentioned, you know, spot rates.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
You know, my crystal brawl right now is cracked and foggy,
and so like you know, it's it's pretty pretty tough
to tell in the beginning of the ear is extremely
bullish in the contractual mark in the spot market. You know,
you just don't know what's going to happen from the
day to day with what's coming out of Washington, you.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Know, but.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So you know, you mentioned spot rates, So like I guess,
also fuel prices come into play, you know when you're
looking at intermodal versus trucking. Because in a lower fuel environment,
which we're currently heading down with oil where it is today,
you know, that's not necessarily good for intermodal, correct, No, I.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Mean, if you think about railroads, they used to say
they get four hundred and eighty five miles per gallon
or some such stat And so if there's a high
fuel priced environment, then that benefits intermodal for sure. But
if we're in a lower environment, no, I mean, so again,
you have flat spot rates and then you have a
lower fuel prices. That makes certainly international intermodal dicey. Larry.
(20:50):
I will not try to speak for Larry's wisdom because
Larry's the wisest. But Larry has a little bit more
confidence in domestic intermodal this year. He doesn't think it
will be impacted. But you know, we have to see.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Okay, and so you know, just you can't talk rates,
I can talk rates. So like just for.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Those listening out there, intermodal tends to be cheaper than truckload,
you know, at the discount you know, our rule of thumb.
Whether it's right or wrong, I'm really not sure, but
it's usually like anywhere between five to thirty percent cheaper
than trucking alone. And the trade off is that you know,
truck can go from point A to point B, they
can go to door to door, so quote unquote it
(21:29):
might provide a little service. So service on intermodal is
really tied to rail fluidity, right, And I don't know,
can you talk about what your rail partners are doing
or your rail members are doing to you know, improve
their service. So the intermodial products of better product.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yeah, so you you saw the twenty twenty one was
a bad year for the railroads and it was a
lot of combinations of things. You know, they furload a
lot of people and then just as the surge started
happening with freight, there is this precision scheduled railroading, which
we don't need to comment on exhaustively, but it does
impact the operations and certainly it can become snarled while
(22:10):
they tried to implement PSR. So that was that was very,
very challenging for the railroads. The service metrics now are
dramatically improved, and to a railroad, I would say, you know,
CSX has acknowledged in their earnings releases that they have
the challenge of the Baltimore the Key Bridge, and then
(22:33):
the Howard Street tunnel work and the Hurricane Helen in
North Carolina. So yeah, there's still some operational challenges, but
by and large work the product is enormously improved. And
so if they are continuing to put in an investment,
if they are continuing to scrutinize their operations, then that
helps us dramatically.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
We've seen bidly speaking network fluidity, so we measure it
by train speeds and dwell times both both improving, you know,
and that actually data is available in the Bloomberg turtable
as well.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
B I Rail, I'd be sure to tune in. So,
you know, you talked about winning share.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Are there parts of the market that you have more
of an opportunity? Is it really domestic intermodial, is it
cross border intermodial, whether it's between US and Mexico, US
and Canada, maybe even Canada to Mexico. So are there
pockets of opportunity that are more than others?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Well, I will say this, we're really really excited about
what's going on cross border with Mexico. It's become and
you know this from all all kinds of logistics providers.
They're looking at Mexico for any number of reasons. But
we're excited about that because we've seen a really the
first quarter of this year, we've seen I think it
(23:54):
was something like eighteen percent growth in cross border traffic
and that's a potential resource for the future. Obviously, tariffs,
you know, continue to be a question mark there, but
that is a great potential potential future growth opportunity for
intermodal that we look at in terms of other pockets
(24:17):
of growth you know, I think for US, it's really
how do we how do we convert those folks who
are convinced that truck is the only way to go
with providing a truck like service.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And your members it's Canada, US and Mexico or just Canada.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
US, Canada, US and Mexico.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, okay, And so you know, are there regions that
are have I guess more opportunities, whether it's Canada, US
Mexico or you know, in the east of the US,
west of the US, or are there certain areas that
just have more opportunities for whatever the reason is.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Well, so the East gets challenged when.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Eastern US, yes.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
The East, sorry, not the east of the world. The
East gets gets challenged when truck rates are low because
it's very, very hard to compete with truck on the
East Coast because you just don't have those long distances.
As you know, they are a little less affected by
the Chinese traffic, the you know, the the like Long
(25:26):
Beach and La Long Beach is but they are they
are impacted if truck rates are low. So on the
West Coast, they're highly impacted by imports going down, but
can be more competitive to truck because they're going to
be longer distances. So in terms of the future, look
we got to go. We can't just look at one
particular marketplace. I think we have to improve it all large,
(25:48):
which is the whole point of having a public relations
campaign is to really educate those folks who don't know
enough about intermodal as an option to recognize why it matters.
And so we have to talk to the shippers who
are currently either have used it before and don't use
it any longer, or the shippers who've never used it
and don't even think to use it, And so that
(26:11):
is it is a challenge as to what is the
message that resonates the most. We had a kind of
tentative or not tentative, what's the word I'm looking for whatever,
the kind of initial there we go, initial analysis that
said that they're looking for reliability, and of course they are,
of course they're looking for reliability. Obviously price matters too,
(26:31):
but you really want reliability. I mean, this is what
we found after COVID. People just want things when they
want things, and there's a greater expectation that if you
order it today, you'll get it tomorrow or in the
next couple of days. It just is we've changed forever
how we anticipate what we order, how we anticipate what,
you know, what comes to us. And so if railroads
(26:51):
are going to be part of that, then we also
have intermodals can be part of that. Then we have
to change those expectations on our end.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Too, right. And you know, so you guys, do you
know you're doing lobbying, you do other trade group stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
You also you have a like a couple of conferences
or a major conference every year.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Do you want to talk about that?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
We do lead? Haven't you spoken it before?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
A long time? A long time ago. I wasn't asked
back for quite some time.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
What you do do you think?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I thought I did an okay job, Chris?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know what because Larry Gross is there and like
I just yet, I can't I can't outshine him.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
So he took all the limelight. Well, yes, we have
a big annual conference in September in Long Beach. It's
in Long Beach till twenty thirty one, So book your
hotel rooms now. But it wolf see if we can
get you back lead. But that's that is about everything
that anybody is interested in terms of intermodal all the
(27:51):
all the bodies are there. They're all there. Everybody in
the intermodal marketplace is at that conference, and they're doing
deals and they're you know, getting business, and we try
to provide a compelling forum so that they can actually
learn more and you know, get educated. So that's our responsibility,
but also just providing them networking opportunities as well, and
(28:14):
then we have this expo hall where they can see
the kind of the new stuff. One of the things
you know about TIA Lead that they've done very well
is that they have a technology conference called Technovations. It's like,
should I call TIA and say you should pay me
for all the stuff I've said about you. But one
of the things that I think is going to be
incumbent on us, just going back to what I was
(28:34):
just saying, how we have to convince shippers of choice
that we are an alternative. I think embracing technology even
more so than we are today is going to be
a critical need. And part of it is because of
you know, there's demand for visibility like we just talked about,
and part of it is because of cargo theft, meaning
(28:55):
you have to know where everything is at all times.
But I think that there's a person option that railroads
are old right, because they are. They've been around a
long time. But you know, if we can continue to
focus on bringing it into the technological age, I think
that will be important. And when we'll have young cool
people at our conferences the expo and who doesn't want
(29:16):
young cool people at their conferences? I can't think of anybody,
So that's that's going to be something that will work
on as well. I mean, you're young and Koli, so obviously.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I'm young for a fifty five year old man.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yes, it's all relatives who are speaking before the recording.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So I'm glad you mentioned technology.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
You know what Ziada's position on autonomous truck game, because
obviously it will impact it could impact your your drage
members do do you guys have a position on it
at all?
Speaker 3 (29:51):
We're yeah, we're neutral on it. Here's here's an Ranky's
position on it is that the technology happens whether or
not you take a position on it. And I mean, right, like,
if you think back to any development that's ever happened
in technology there I just read The Box. I'm almost
finished with that book. It's all about the container industry.
(30:13):
And if you recall, it used to be these guys
who would take sacks of flower and they would take
it off the boat and they'd stick it out of
like all that stuff. That doesn't happen anymore. Did they
want that to happen. No, of course they didn't want
that to happen, but it happened. I mean, it's sort
of like, if we can improve autonomous trucking to the
point where it's equally as safe as a truck being driven,
(30:36):
you know, by a driver, then it's very hard to
refute that. I mean the same thing with cruise sides
on the railroad. I don't know if anyone was going
to accept having a pilotless plane. Probably not. But if
you're this sort of technological improvement happens whether we like
it or not. It's just sort of the future of
how we do it. However we you know, get our
(30:59):
minds to accept.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Okay, are there any other technologies that Diana is excited
about outside of you know, you mentioned fraud again for
those listening, not to keep on plugging my own podcast,
but you know, we did one with the Chief Commercial
Officer of Highway, which is a platform that fights trucking frauds,
So you might, if you're interested in fraud and learning
(31:23):
more about that, you might want to go back to
listen to that from a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
But all that being said, are there any other.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Technological advances or developments that are really of interest to
Iana and your members?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
All those technologies that ensure the safety and security of
the container are of interest, and those, as you know,
are getting more and more sophisticated. Whether it's a smart
container some of our members have invested in smart containers,
whether it's having temperature detection so that you ensure that
(31:58):
the if it's you know, durated freight, that it doesn't
exceed or go below its desired temperature. Whether it's those
detectors that you can stick on a container door so
that can sense when a container a door is opening
and whether it should or should not and can cause
an alert. All of those things I think are kind
of exciting, and I think we're just getting towards like that.
(32:22):
To me is where we have so much runway in that,
and it's kind of exciting to think about. And one
other thing that I haven't mentioned about Diana, which is
pretty neat and this is so weedy, you're going to
love it, Lee, But we administer the UIIA. Do you
know what that is? No, stop the stars, Stop the stars.
(32:45):
It's a uniform intermtal interchange agreement. And what that does
is it provides a rules of the road when our
members are handling containers. And so you have chassis providers
who are members of the UIIA, you have railroads, you
(33:05):
have the ocean going vessels, you have the drayage companies,
and they all are part of this agreement that essentially
then they know how to operate. I think that's enormously
helpful for our efficiency. But I think it's also helpful.
We haven't even begun to really scope out what we
could use the UIIA beyond what it's being used for.
(33:28):
I mean, we've already our really smart team at Ayana
have developed a number of different things that connect with UIIA.
For example, the driver database. The driver database means that
if you are a draage driver and you're in the
driver database, you the railroad or you the chass provider,
you the vessel guys can check that database to make
(33:50):
sure that draage driver is already registered and has you know,
insurance and has the CDL and is who he says
he is. Well, that's really enormously helpful too in terms
of staving off fraud. It wasn't the reason to do it,
but that's sort of something that we did and so
our it folks and the guys and gals who work
on uii A every day are thinking constantly of how
better things, you know, even better and more improvements. For example,
(34:13):
they're testing out the equipment return location, so where equipment
gets returned to. That's helpful for folks who own the
equipment or need the equipment, having some sort of GPS
positioning system where you know where that equipment has been
returned to. But that's pretty great. So they're testing that
out and that's something that we're excited about as well.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Awesome and thanks for educating me on the uii A.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, you can go to the intermodal dot org website
lead and click on UIA and you're going to learn.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
So much, so much stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I'm still learning. I'm still learning. I've only been on
the job since December. I've still got a lot to learn.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
This episode might have the most self promoting content on
it so so, speaking of which, are there any other
issues that the is focused on as it relates to
freight transportation logistics. You know, is there anything that's top
of uh.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Or on your radar.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Well, you know, we just saw that executive order about
English proficiency, and you know that's that's existing law. They're
just going to enforce it. Right. I don't know what
the impact will be for our community. I think we
need to understand that a little bit better. Obviously we
have as I've just went on and on about we
(35:31):
have cross border traffic. So that to me is going
to be you know, talk with me laterly and we'll
see exactly what the impacts are. I do know I
talked to a WAIDA, the Owner Operators Independent Driver Association
last week, and they're so delighted that this has happened
(35:52):
so to the extent, you know, the owner operators feel
great about it. Good for them. I just don't know
exactly what the impacts will be on our intermodal folk
and you know other things. We have to see what's
going to happen with rail regulation. The railroads will tell
us when and if we need to get engaged on
for example, crew size, whether or not they want. I
know that's litigation still pending on the crew size, two
(36:14):
person crew versus ultimately you know whether or not there
will be one person crew. And so again we're not
engaged on that right now, but may well be if
we were asked to provide support. And then any kind
of economic regulatory stuff is obviously of concern to us
because anything that impedes traffic flows is detrimental to our membership.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And on the English proficiency proficiency topic, you know, Derek
Leathers from Warner on their earnings call, he kind of said,
I think it was more of an estimate that he
thought ten to fifteen percent of the truckers out there
would fail those.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Sort of tests.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
And it's interesting from what I understand, and you can
correct me if I'm totally talking out a line, but
it tends to be dra age where more of that
might might happen. And that's just the the impression that
I was under.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean, you know this about draage, operators are
typically lower barriers to entry, right, It's just a little
bit easier. And so yeah, there's a larger immigrant population
that gets involved in draage. So but not just you know,
not just Hispanic orientation of all kinds, all nations. So yeah,
it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
So when I did the intro, mentioned that, you know,
you started at your career at CSX. I don't know
if that maybe that was your first foray into transports.
How did you get into transportation? Because I find either
you're born into it or you kind of like fall
into it. So how did you get into transports?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yeah? I definitely fell into it. I am a lawyer
who did not like practicing law. How many lawyers do
you know? Like that many? I was one of them,
and so I started. I was working in a law firm.
I felt stultified. I did not feel like I was growing,
so I looked around at other opportunities. There is this
(38:11):
little association called the High Speed Ground Transportation Association. There
were you know, high speed trains, and I essentially said,
do you need anyone to help you? And my boss,
he was one of those guys who like takes on,
you know, projects, He liked to take on projects, so sure,
oh are you? So from there I got into railroads really,
so I was there for a little bit. Then I
(38:32):
went to the AAR of the Association American Railroad CSX
hired me from there and I was at CSX for
sixteen years, and I loved it. It was never a
dull day. I mean, sometimes there is a horrible day
because you have derailments where people get hurt or killed,
but it's you always doing something you feel as vitally
important to American commerce, to the American population, to the
American economy. And you know, I was there for a
(38:55):
long time until obviously we know what happened in twenty
seven and teen with all the stuff which I'm sure
you've all covered up a covered at nauseum about how
the management change and so on and so forth. But
you know, being part of transportation, once you start, it's
very hard to want to stop. It's so interesting to me.
(39:17):
By and large, it's politically neutral. It's not something where
people feel it's not polarizing necessarily. I mean, yeah, they're
always going to be the truck versus railroad fight, or
the shipper versus you know, railroad truck fight or those
kinds of things, but usually everyone needs to get along
because it's so critical to the economy. So I like it.
(39:38):
I'm glad I'm here right.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I think we should settle those fights in a steel
cage match.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
That's yeah, finally get it out for once.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
And you know, you mentioned the box, and a couple
of guests mentioned that book, So if you're interested to
learn more about transportation, you definitely should check that out.
Were there any other books that you might have read
in the past, whether about transportation, you know, management leadership
that is kind of close to your heart.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
So the other book I read that has touched was
I have tried to implement with every job is called
Humble Leadership, and it talks about how humble leadership is
essentially knowing you don't have all the answers, nor should
you as a leader, so you need to surround yourself
with people who can assist, who are experts in their
(40:32):
particular realm, and so having the humility to know that
you cannot solve the problem by yourself or figure out
the issue by yourself. Gosh, I find that enormously freeing
as a leader because it means that you don't just
have to rely on yourself, but you also have a
community of folks who want to assist and want to
(40:53):
help you. And by and large, if you have good
people who work for you, they want to help you
and they want to be you know, talk to if
they have an expertise. So that to me is one
of the most important books. I hope everyone reads it. Really,
I think there are a lot of leaders out there.
It's called Humble Leadership. If I had it in front
of me, I would remember who wrote it, but I don't. Uh.
(41:16):
And there's other parts of the book which you know
memory fads, but that was the most That was the
one that resonated with me the most. But I was
going to say, there are a lot of leaders out
there who they think they have to show like they're
the boss and that they know all the stuff. It
just it can be really demoralizing to your team who
(41:37):
if you don't listen to them.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
And the bad thing about this podcast is it's only audio.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
You should have seen and kind of move around when
she was talking about those those leaders that think they.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Need to.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Like HR puff and stuff, they're HR puffing group show.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
That was such a great show.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Well on the puff and stuff note, and I really
want to thank you for your time and your insights
and you know, and it was definitely educational learn more
about Iyana and all the things that you're doing for
the intermodal industry.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Thank you, Lee. Thanks for having me on. I'm very
glad to see you and maybe we'll get an invitation.
I can't promise anything.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Maybe you'll get into maybe fingers crossed, all right, and
I want to thank you for tuning in. If you
like the episode, please subscribe and leave a review. We've
lined up a number of great guests for the podcast,
so please check back to her conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators,
and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you
want to learn more about the freight transportation markets, check
(42:38):
out our work on the Bloomberg Terminal, at b I.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Go and on social media.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
This is logistically signing off and thanks for talking transports
with me today.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Take care bye,
Host
Lee Klaskow
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